Two-Tier Typology

Open Air Theology

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

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Black sheep among misfits. A misfit in the trailer park at night.

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A misprint with the sixth sense. Been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.

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My two cents never made sense. Either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

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My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dot sign and my

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John Hancock on the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is

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I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight.

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Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me. I'm within the deep end and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

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My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the

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Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist.

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Host to child of Reformation society. We don't need your education. Give me a

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Bible and a bookshelf of dead man cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men making

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Reformation great again. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

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You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

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All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the open air theology show.

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My name is Jeff and I am one of the pastors and elders of Covenant. We are a

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Reformed Baptist church in Tallahoma, Tennessee. If you're ever in the area, please stop by and check us out.

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Worship the Lord with us. And I'm passing it over to this dork fish over here.

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Is that me or are you pointing to nothing? Oh, that's me, all right. Okay, I am

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Pastor Braden. I am the pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. We are a small fellowship that gathers in southern

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Idaho on the Lord's day, like today at 11 a .m. If you live in this area, I would love to invite you to come worship the

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King of Kings with ourselves as we just revel and celebrate the resurrection of Christ.

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And I'll pass. And I'm just also Reformed Ex -Mormon as my YouTube channel. And it's a blessing to be a co -host with people like this no mic working

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Yahoo down here. No mic and headsets weren't working. So if my mouth is going and my sound is coming out later, it's

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Braden's fault. Anyway, my name is Tom Sheppard, and I am a member of Grace Bible Church here in Birney, Texas.

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And excited. We had a great Lord's Day today. I'm just excited to be a co -host here at Open Earth Theology with these

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Yahoo's. Talking about your typology today. Well, it's definitely a joy to have you a part of the

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Open Earth Theology. So, I mean, you already said your Lord's Day was good. So what did your pastor preach on?

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So today was a it was a special day. It was we had one baptism, a lady named

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Erica, young lady named Erica gave her testimony. She was baptized today. And then we had a fellowship meal afterwards.

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But he preached on what baptism was being identified in Christ. A picture of what is what has actually happened to us.

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And then the method and the model all about being baptized is that we don't baptize children.

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That is upon a profession of faith. And then he talked a little bit about, you know, what the model was in scripture as who it was that actually got baptized.

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And it was always following, believing, always following a confession of faith. So my

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Lord, well, my Lord's Day was good. I was I was able to preach this. My 70th, 70th, 70th said message number 75.

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OK, of the Gospel of John. And it was really good. We had a new family show today.

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They drove from Murfreesboro, Tennessee, so about 45 minutes away. And they, you know, according to them, they absolutely love the service.

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They plan on coming back next week. And the Lord is growing our church. I mean, like, I don't know if y 'all if y 'all heard, but there's something going on in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

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And, yeah, y 'all need to come and be a part of it. It's really great. Yeah, something in the water.

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It's something in the bourbon. But, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So it was a really good Lord's Day. I'm so thankful for my co -pastor,

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Pastor Calco Elder and his family. And also, I don't know if I informed anyone of this, but there's a possibility that we're going to get a new church building.

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And it's it is really nice. Like, compared to where we are, we're basically in it.

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You know, have you ever been to a hole in the wall bar? We're basically the hole in the wall church.

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And but but the building that we're looking at, it is gorgeous.

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It's an actual church building. The church that was originally there was planted in 1969. They just recently closed down and June 30th of this year.

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And and they left everything. It was as if they were raptured and we were left behind.

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Right. Or or or as they were having service, there was a bomb threat.

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They left and no one has come back yet. I mean, everything is still there. I mean, it's going to take us if we get it, it's going to take us about a week to clean everything up.

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However, it's a beautiful church and and we will actually have a building that looks like a church that we can actually have signs up.

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And so we're excited. If you would, please, please keep that in your prayer request that the

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Lord will grant us this building. Yeah, I'm so excited, brother.

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That's that will be awesome. That'll be absolutely fantastic. My church service today was an absolute blessing.

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I have the opportunity to preach in Galatians 2, verse 21, all the way to chapter three, verse four.

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And the title of today's message is Foolish. It's talking about how Christians and it's something that we have to protect ourselves from.

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Is the church of Galatia started off by faith in Christ?

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They take your microphone. I can hardly hear you. Is that better? No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're good.

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Is that better? Yeah. Yeah. So there's the churches of Galatia were able to have people come in and convince them that by mutilating and circumcising themselves, that that's how they were maintaining this righteousness or maintaining and being perfected in the flesh.

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And Paul's very quick to call them foolish and that they were bewitched. And so it was just a great reminder that not only does salvation first purchase us, but it keeps

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Christ keeps us and he maintains our salvation through his righteous life. And that it is all the way until we are glorified and beyond that, that we are saved by Christ alone.

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So it is a good blessing to be in there. I also got some really good, exciting news I can't announce yet.

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We know it, but we can't tell you. I know. Y 'all better be waiting.

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I'm so excited about to be able to finally announce it publicly and whatnot. So anyway,

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I can't say more or else I'll end up saying it. He brought you to it. He'll bring you through it. That's right.

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So anyway, what are we talking about today, gents? Well, we're talking about two tier typology.

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But before we get into two tier typology, I think it's best to begin with typology.

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Like, what is typology? And a lot of times what I like to do is I like to use a structure of a menu.

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Right. So. So this right here is not a menu. However, it is a bulletin for our church.

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So whenever you go to a restaurant, right, they hand you a menu.

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Right. And if you're like me, you like pictures. Right. I don't I don't like to read something and I not know what it looks like.

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And so I like a menu, like a restaurant that gives me pictures. And if I see something on the menu that I want.

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A lot of times, you know, if I'm at a Mexican restaurant or something like that, I can't read those words. So I just point my listen.

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Give me this. Right. All right. Well, they take my menu and then they bring me back the substance.

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They don't bring me back the menu. Right. And so when it comes to typology, it's the understanding that that there's a type.

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There's a shadow and there's an anti type. There's a substance. Right.

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And so the type is a shadow of something. The anti type is the substance of something.

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Right. I am not my shadow. But from my shadow, there's certain features that you can tell about me.

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And so and so, you know, you know, like this is something that we'll probably bring out in the two tier typology.

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But but something that's really clear in Scripture is that when John the Baptist sees

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Jesus, he says, behold, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

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And so that Pascal lamb was a pitcher. It was a type.

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It was a shadow of something greater, that greater being

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Jesus Christ. Right. Now, if you want to explain to tier typology,

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Brayden. Yeah, I'm a present something on the screen just to show here.

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But as I'm going there, I want to encourage the audience and let you know that you have come to the right place to learn about typology.

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As we two years ago put together a. Is that showing through on your guys' side at all?

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I'll pull it up. OK, go ahead and pull that up there. There we go.

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Sweet. We did a conference on from shadows to substance, which was dealing with typology.

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And so I would argue and put forth that I think 1689 Federalists have some of the most deepest and and true understanding of what typology is in Scripture.

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Something that I have right here for us is from a sermon that I just recently gave at another church in California.

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But I have something I just wanted to read here for us to define what to two tier typology is, which comes underneath the umbrella.

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It's under the umbrella and the definition of typology. We're not trying to give a different definition to typology.

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It's just a more robust, a more exhaustive definition of it. And so the the the definition is is here.

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It's two tier typology in 1689 federalism refers to the theological concept where Old Testament people, events and institutions.

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First tier serve as types or shadows that pointed forward to greater

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New Testament realities. Second tier fulfillment in Christ. These typological structures highlights how the

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Old Covenant symbols such as Israel, the temple and sacrifices find their ultimate completion and true meaning in Christ and his work in the

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New Covenant, revealing the continuity and fulfillment of God's redemptive plan.

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I'll hit stop sharing now at that point. But all that being said is it's saying that not only was was the lamb just a type of Christ, but the like Jeff said that John looking at Jesus saying, behold, the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

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He's referencing the Passover lamb in that the sacrificial lamb. And there was something that that sacrificial lamb did do and fulfill in the

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Old Testament. That is the first here. And so it served a it served its purpose and it served a purpose back then.

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And that understanding gives you a better, more robust understanding of what the anti type, the second tier fulfills in Christ.

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And so we have examples today that we're going to talk about with that. And so I would I would turn it over to Tom to be able to look at some examples.

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If I can real quick answer a question, a servant of Christ asked a question.

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And so that was Solomon Solomon's porch. And I went there probably for about a month or two months.

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It's actually how I met my co -elder, Pastor Cal Cernulia. So, yeah, I used to go there, but I never served at that church.

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OK, so we can look at a couple of examples. And I'm actually got these examples out of Samuel Renahan's book,

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The Mystery of Christ, His Covenant and Kingdom. And on page 32 there, we can look at, for example,

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John 32, 33, where Jesus calls himself the John what?

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John 6, 32 and 33. I thought you said John 33. I was like,

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I ain't got that book. Where Jesus calls himself the true bread and he connects the bread with the wilderness to himself.

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So John 6, 32 says, truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses. Was it not

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Moses who gave you the bread from heaven? But my father gives you the true bread from heaven for the bread of God that he for the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.

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This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread that the fathers ate and died.

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Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever. The bread was not the bread was not a lesser version of Jesus, but it pointed to him.

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So the bread that came in that they ate, they died. It still serve its purpose.

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They died, but it pointed to the bread of life. Who is the bread of life? Which is

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Christ. There's another one. Paul says in 1st Corinthians 10, 4, it says, and all drank from the same spiritual drink for they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them.

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And the rock was Christ. The Old Testament believers drank from the rock, which was

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Christ. The rock and its water were not Jesus Christ, but they portrayed who

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Jesus Christ was. They found salvation in the rock, the water as they drank. But it wasn't salvific salvation, but it pointed to Christ who takes away the sins of the world who could wash you clean.

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You drink Christ and you have a salvation in him. There's a couple others here.

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Let me go. Let me go on. Referring to the Jewish mosaic laws, Paul says in Colossians 2, 17, these are the shadows of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

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The Jewish mosaic law look forward to Christ and his kingdom, but they were not themselves

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Christ and his kingdom. The Hebrew writer makes the arguments repeatedly referring to the

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Israelites tabernacle in the temple. In the temple, he says in Hebrews 8, 5, they shall serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things.

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For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God saying, see that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain.

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And in Hebrews 9, 23 and 24 says, thus is it. It is necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rights.

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But the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these for Christ has entered not into a place with human hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, not to appear to the presence of God on our behalf.

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For since the law has been a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true forms of realities.

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So all of these examples show types are substantially distinct from their antitypes.

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So they're not the same. They're not the same substance, but a different thing that pointed to the substance with Christ.

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That's right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The Bible, like I've been preaching to the gospel of John, as you all know, and like like the earthly and the heavenly, it's like like it's really giving me a new understanding.

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Right. Like there is the earthly and there is the heavenly. You have the under the old covenant.

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You have the earthly kingdom people, the physical descendants of Abraham. And then you have the heavenly, the spiritual descendants, the earthly and the heavenly, the heavenly is the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

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Right. And so the earthly kingdom people of Israel had they had their fulfillment right under the old covenant.

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And in the new covenant, it's the heavenly kingdom people, which is both

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Jew and Gentile. You can be a physical descendant of Abraham.

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Right. As and also be a spiritual descendant of Abraham.

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So you have this this two tier typology, meaning that his his covenant people, the

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Jews had their place that their position was to bring about the seed.

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Right. So so so there was a seed promise to Eve in Genesis chapter three, verse 15.

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That seed passes to Abraham. Right. And it's in the sea that comes from Abraham was to keep the law, keep the covenant and keep the covenant, inherit the land and bless the nations.

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That seed passes all the way through. The descendants of Abraham, the physical descendants of Abraham.

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And so the purpose of this physical descendants of Abraham was to bring about the seed, which is

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Christ. Right. So it finds its fulfillment in Christ. So through Christ, we have the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

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And the good thing about the new covenant is that those who believed in that physical seed that would come would not only be a physical descendant, but a spiritual descendant.

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And so the the earthly points to the heavenly. And so here in the new covenant, it's the same idea.

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So the old covenant had its fulfillment. Now that we're in the new covenant, the old covenant was pointing to the new covenant and the new covenant has its fulfillment.

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All of it's wrapped up in Christ. Right. So we we have to understand that we remember that there was a mystery of Christ, that there was a like you said, the promised seed.

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And so during Moses's time, Christ hadn't been revealed to them completely. But they were told to sprinkle the blood over the over the doorway.

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So the firstborn of every every person that that was sprinkled over wouldn't die. Right. And so they did that.

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They sprinkled the blood over the doorway. It saved them salvificly. But what did it point to? No, it didn't save them salvificly.

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It did not save them salvificly. But what did it point to? So it saved their life. It saved their life.

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It didn't save them salvificly. Yeah. So the Paschal Lamb, like, you know, for everyone that was there that night in Israel, that death angel was coming through.

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If they would have put that blood over the door, their firstborn son would have not died.

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And so by applying that blood, it served the purpose for which it was supposed to. But it was also pointing to something greater.

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And it's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Right. So his blood covering that cross, covering us as a substitute.

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Right. Saves us from the wrath of God. Theirs was not salvificly.

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Theirs was a physical life being saved. Ours is salvificly spiritual.

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So the picture was those who enter this area and the blood is covering them.

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They will be saved with their physical life pointing to being saved eternally in Christ.

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So those who are in Christ are saved salvificly. That's what it was pointing to.

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No, and that's absolutely factual. I would go back to Jeff's picture of that real fast.

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Abraham looking to the stars. One side of the fulfillment of that is his multiple physical offspring that he had that came from him.

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They still are existing today. There's still several offspring from Abraham. Guess what? It is innumerable, right?

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It's a large sum of people now. But that is a greater fulfillment in not the children of the flesh, but the children of the promise, according to Galatians chapter 3.

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So that is a clear example of two -tier typology where there's a type given, which is the stars.

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It's physically fulfilled in the physical people. But then the second anti -type, the true fulfillment of it, is in Christ, right?

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Somebody said that they heard that Presbyterians say that two -tier typology is eisegesis.

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Let me hold it up so people can see it. I would respond and say, of course they would say that because they have to hold to that or else their whole system would fall apart.

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I wanted to show an example on the screen here. If you pull that up, let me know because I cannot see you guys right now.

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Is it up there? Yep. Perfect. What do you mean you can't see us? So I'm looking at this screen right now, the

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Logos screen. I'm looking at this and I can't see you guys. Just let me know if I lose you for any reason. No, you're good.

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So Hebrews 8 is the absolute kicking out the legs from Presbyterian theology, right, with the covenant of grace.

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In here it talks about a covenant of being made with the house of Israel. And this is a

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Reformed Baptist, a 1689 Federalist is going to say that this is applied directly to the elect, that anybody that is in Christ, a .k

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.a. the elect, is the covenant that they're brought into this covenant relationship through Christ.

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So meaning children should not take the covenant sign until they are professing believers, right?

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This flies in the face to Presbyterians, and so therefore they go to the

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Jeremiah 31 text. And they say, well, you see, when it says in here that the covenant being made with the house of Israel and all the people knowing him, this is talking about the exile of Babylon after they are brought back into the land and released from Cyrus, that they would just come back to being in a state of more people knowing him.

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So there were still unbelievers in the nation of Israel when they were released from Babylon, but the great majority believed in him.

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And therefore this text here in Jeremiah 31 is not saying that everybody will actually know

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Christ, but a great majority of them will. And then they'd come back to Hebrews 8 and say, you see, that's why we can bring children to the covenant that might not actually know

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God. The issue with that is how is Paul intending for us to understand the way that he's writing this?

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It has to be the question, and it is meant for us to understand that though Jeremiah first wrote it specifically talking about the nation of Israel being held in captivity

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Babylon, there was a greater fulfillment that Paul applies to the church and the elect today. Right here,

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I have an example of how this works. So Hosea 2 is a text that shows, verse 23, it says,

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Hosea is prophesying about the captivity of Babylon and their eventual release from that captivity, right?

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So this is fulfilled in 500 BC, somewhere around that time, right?

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Well, every Presbyterian that is a Calvinist, as most are, loves

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Romans 9. And let's look how Romans 9 uses this text that was applied and fulfilled in 500

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BC physically. Let's see how Romans 9 uses it. We'll go ahead and read verse 22.

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What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which

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He has prepared beforehand for glory? Even us, whom He has called, not from the

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Jews only, but also from the Gentiles. So let me pause there and say Paul is saying, what I'm about to say applies to both

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Jew and Gentile, those that have faith in Christ and have been prepared beforehand for glory.

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As indeed, he says in Hosea, Those who were not my people, I will call my people.

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And her who was not beloved, I will call beloved. And in this very place, or in the very place where it was said to you, you are not my people, there they will be called the sons of the living

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God. Now pause that. How is Paul saying that the ultimate fulfillment of this text is to be applied?

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Today, to those that are in Christ, but Hosea wrote it, specifically talking about the physical redemption of the people of Israel, not salvificly from Babylon, back to the land of Jerusalem.

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Which then, that just gives so much more credence to covenant theology, because Paul is saying, this

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Israel, the people who were not my people are now called my people. This Israel is made up of Jew and Gentile.

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There's a reason why Arminianists try to use that exact same argument against Calvinists that the

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Presbyterian is using against the Reformed Baptist. Be consistent. If you want to hold

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Romans 9 as a Calvinistic text, you need to be a Reformed Baptist, because you're not applying two -tier typology correctly.

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Right, and that's the danger that we see also in dispensationalism, right?

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Because a dispensationalist would come to that text and not point to Romans 9. Right, so a dispensationalist would say the

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Old Testament authors had a certain meaning, and what did the author attend at that time? And I really like what, by the way,

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Beale wrote, who is an OPC pastor. He said, Old Testament passages contain thick descriptive meanings and unravel layer after layer subsequent stages of canonical revelation.

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This means that Old Testament passages can be understood more deeply in light of the developing revelation of parts of the

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Old Testament, especially in the New. The Old Testament authors had a true understanding of what they wrote, but they didn't have an exhaustive understanding of what they wrote.

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So when they were writing something back then at that time to whoever they were writing to, he intended exactly what was coming, whatever the

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Holy Spirit was moved through him to write, communicate, but he had an understanding of what he was writing.

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Did he have an exhaustive understanding of what it pointed to? No, nobody did. It was a mystery that was found in Christ in the

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New Testament. That's why we read the Old Testament in light of the New. 100%.

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And that's, by the way, an OPC pastor. He's Presbyterian. So he did hold to typology, at least in some places.

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And Ben pointed out that I did a series on federalism on my church's

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YouTube channel. And I did, and I've learned a lot more concerning since then.

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And so I'm thinking within a couple of years, I'll probably do a new one on it. Not saying that I'll delete the old one, but to bring to light some of the other new findings

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I see now. I preached through Galatians, and now

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I would love nothing more than to preach through Galatians, because I've learned so much more about Galatians. I've preached through Hebrews, and now

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I want to preach through Hebrews again, right? What would you say? Because I think a lot of people will make this argument as well, that sometimes people will say, it's not a typology unless it explicitly says it in the

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New Testament. Why would we not hold to that? Well, I would say it's a cop -out, right?

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Because what I see as a structure given to us by the apostles in the

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New Testament on how to interpret the Bible. This is why I am a 1689

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Federalist. Listen, I've had my theological journey, right?

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And eschatology used to be so much fun to me. And listen, eschatology is fun.

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Having that conversation is absolutely fun. However, Baptist covenant theology is so much fun.

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It doesn't matter what passage of scripture you give to me.

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I can use Baptist covenant idealism and give you what

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I would believe is the proper interpretation by using the examples given to us by the apostles with two -tier typology.

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So, all we're doing is that we are submitting. So, like Acts 2 .42,

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it says to devote yourselves to the teachings of the apostles. Also, if you are a teacher, you need to devote yourselves to the interpretation of the apostles.

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How did the apostles interpret the scriptures? The scriptures that they had was the Old Testament, right?

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What you're saying, it's not a one -time thing that if it just doesn't explicitly say it, but that we should actually apply this hermeneutic in general because this is a pattern that the apostles used.

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Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think to not do so, you are building a wall between yourself and the proper interpretation.

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Right. Well, so this is what 2 Timothy 3 .15 says. And that from childhood, this is

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Paul writing to Timothy. And that from childhood, you have known the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith, which is in Christ Jesus.

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This is Paul telling them, look at the Old Testament and you will see it.

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It's obvious. It's there. When you are converted and you have eyes that can see, you will see

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Christ on every page of the Old Testament. I mean, Jesus, when appearing to the disciples on the road to advance, he opens up things from Moses and all the prophets and shows how these things were concerning him, teaching of him.

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There is typology everywhere. Let me ask you this.

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Is there a specific place in the New Testament where it says that Jesus is the seed that was promised to Eve that would crush the head of the serpent?

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Not directly, no. See, it's not directly, right? You have to really study and dive into it.

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That's right. And so by that argument, we cannot say that that's the

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Proto -Evangelium, the announcement of the gospel. So if they want to use that argument, then they cannot ho to Genesis 315 as being about Jesus Christ on that cross bruising the head of the serpent.

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That's right. You know, I was going to say, go ahead.

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Sorry, Nehemiah Cox, he talks about this too. Cox? Is it Cox?

34:58

C -O -X -E? Yes, Cox. Oh, Cox. Okay. Get it right, man. Have respect for the dead.

35:07

That's right. And he says this, Nehemiah Cox. If this is the method of interpretation practiced by the apostles, and if it properly handles the mystery of Christ as a mystery, then we are not only allowed to use it, but we are required to use it.

35:28

Boom. A .W. Pink says this. Look, I'll drink to that.

35:34

Amen. It is not sufficiently realized by many of the Lord's people that the historical portions of the

35:41

Old Testament scriptures are something more than a record of events which transpired thousands of years ago.

35:47

You're breaking up, son. You're breaking up. No. Am I really? Yeah. Badly?

35:55

Well. Give me a second, y 'all. Give me a second. I'm going to probably lose you for a moment because I'm in a hot spot.

36:03

That's okay. If you go off the screen, we're going to make fun of you. Yeah. My wife's watching. Don't do that.

36:10

Well, she hears us make fun of you all the time. Yeah. That's the second nature. She makes more fun of me than you guys.

36:17

You know what? I was reading A .W. Pink through the

36:26

Joseph story, and he was talking about how his father had a special love for him.

36:32

It wasn't by accident. He's a representative that's pointing to the father and crying.

36:37

Can you hear me? Hello? Can you hear me now? Nothing. I can hear you.

36:43

Can you hear me now? Yeah. Sweet. Nice. All right. It's working better now,

36:49

I think. Go ahead and go. Let me read this quote. Yep. A .W. Pink says, which I think this touches on exactly what

36:56

Jeff is talking about with many Christians not willing or not able in their own mind to rationalize several things.

37:03

All right. What's going on, man? You're breaking up again. I'm just reading.

37:13

I've got some internet. I've got a potato up here as my router, so leave me alone.

37:18

A .W. Pink says, it is not sufficiently realized by many of the

37:23

Lord's people that the historical portions of the Old Testament scripture are something more than a record of events which transpired thousands of years ago.

37:31

They are written not only for our information, but also for our edification. They are full of valuable instructions, and they contain precious illustrations and striking exemplifications of the truth.

37:43

He then goes on to say, the great purpose of God in the word is set for Christ and his glory, and therefore

37:54

Moses, the Psalms, and all the prophets are full of him. Every page of scripture is designed to point us to Christ.

38:06

100%. Did I break up? It was good. Yeah. At the same time,

38:12

I do think that it's important that we don't force it when it's not there. 100%. Yeah.

38:17

100%. Yeah. Yeah. If it's not speaking about Christ, then it's not speaking about Christ.

38:23

Right? Like he's not, I wouldn't say that we are to turn, you know, like the whole idea of turning over every rock.

38:29

We're not to turn over every verse to find Christ. Right. However.

38:35

But when it's there. It's intended to be there. Yeah, we need to recognize it.

38:42

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you look at Joseph when he was imprisoned and he saved his brothers.

38:51

You know, there was a salvation. I mean, he was a type of Christ when he forgave his brothers.

38:58

You know, when his dad had a special kind of love on him, it's a representative.

39:05

It's pointing to who the father is. And Joseph, who was rejected by his very own brothers, who,

39:10

I mean, it's all typological. When you look at the Israelites turning and betraying

39:17

Joseph the same way that Joseph's brothers did him, you know, sold him in.

39:24

That points to Judas being sold into slavery, being sold, being betrayed the same way his brothers betrayed him.

39:37

I mean, that's all typological. Even John 1, he came unto his own and his own did not receive him.

39:45

So the Jews rejecting the Messiah is a fulfillment of the brothers selling

39:51

Joseph into slavery. Right. Like, refusing to accept him as a prophet, right?

39:56

Refusing to accept him as the one that whom they are going to bow down to. Ooh. That sounds a lot like Christ.

40:05

And then the grace. Then the grace. Yeah. He sentenced on his brothers. He could have killed them for what they did to him, but he didn't.

40:12

That's right. Or look at the simple fact that Scripture says, out of Egypt, I've called my son.

40:21

Right. Speaking of the Israelites. Right. What does

40:26

Matthew say? Yeah. Talking about Christ. Talking about Christ. Yeah.

40:32

Talking about Christ. Jesus is the true and better Israel.

40:42

Well, even in the book of Haggai, when Haggai is a prophet telling the people to build the temple, even in that text,

40:50

Hebrews applies that better temple that will not be shaken to what Christ has accomplished in this ministry.

40:56

Right. So it's over and over and over. And let's be clear, in Haggai, when they finished that temple, that's what

41:04

Haggai was prophesying about was the physical temple. That's what he was wanting the people to complete. But then

41:10

Hebrews says, well, it was ultimately pointing towards Christ. Right. Yeah. I mean,

41:15

Ezekiel, the temple in Ezekiel, where the water is flowing up. Right.

41:21

Right. Jesus makes it clear. Tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days.

41:27

Speaking of his own body. And yet we have dispensationals out here sending money to Israel so they can build the third temple.

41:35

When Jesus is the final and third temple. Also, in some ways, typifies us because we as the body of Christ individually, we are temples of God.

41:49

What the heck is going on? You got all this information on us. Is that from this?

42:04

I have no clue. In the whole of the menu illustration, when you have a menu and you're ordering a plate of food and the food comes and you have it in front of you, why would you still hear focus on the menu when your steak is right in front of you eating it?

42:26

You know, or be like asking, hey, I want the menu back. I don't want this.

42:31

I don't want the substance. I want the picture. That's right. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make any sense at all.

42:40

Why would we go back to the to the things that pointed to Christ when we have Christ? Well, like it comes down to that, that, you know,

42:48

Plato's the allegory of the cave. Right. So you have these guys there.

42:54

They're trapped in the cave again. Plato. Look it up. Find the picture. I didn't I didn't think to have one.

43:00

Right. And so like they're chained up. This is all they know. There's a fire pit behind them.

43:06

You got people that walk by make noises. They have these like shadow figures and they thought that that was the substance or really that is the shadow.

43:16

One day, magically, the shackles falls off of one guy. He goes out and he sees the world.

43:22

He sees that there's this big sun and there's things in front of the sun that cast a shadow.

43:28

He goes back in to tell the people, hey, these things are not the substances, the shadow. And they refuse what he is saying.

43:35

And they they rather be with what they know, the shadow, than to understand the substance.

43:43

Right. And that's what Presbyterianism is. Dispensationalism is as they came out, see it and then went back in.

43:52

OK, here we go. Here we go. They think it's supposed to. OK, here we go. Yeah, that's it.

43:59

Yeah. So so as you see on this one side, you got these guys behind the wall. They're shackled and then there's this fire and then there's people walking through making noises there.

44:10

They have horses. They have different kinds of shapes of animals. And these and those who are chained up, they're seeing these things, thinking that this is the reality.

44:19

They don't understand that it's a shadow of the substance. Right. Right. And so all these things in Scripture, they point to something greater.

44:30

Right. The Paschal Lamb, the land of Canaan. Right. So so so so in the land.

44:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I want to get there as well. So so the land of Canaan, the land of Canaan was to house a people.

44:46

It was promised to Abraham. And we see here in Hebrews chapter 11, it says it says verse 13.

44:54

It says these all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and and greeted them from afar and having knowledge that they were strangers and exiles on Earth.

45:11

For people who speak, thus make it clear that they were seeking a homeland.

45:18

Speaking of, you know, Canaan was this place that was promised to them. Verse 15, if they had been thinking of a land from which they had gone out, they would had opportunity to return, meaning they're not actually thinking of the physical land.

45:36

Verse 16. But as it is, they desired a better country that is a heavenly one.

45:42

Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God for he has prepared for them a city.

45:51

Speaking of the new Jerusalem. Right. Amen. The heavenly land of Canaan fulfilled its purpose and housing.

46:00

It was that promised land, a land flown with milk and honey. The old covenant, the Abrahamic, the

46:06

Mosaic covenant that was added to the Abrahamic covenant. It was keep the law and live in the land.

46:13

Right. That that that that was the Mosaic covenant. If you keep the law, you can live in the land.

46:19

You break the law, you have to you'll be removed from the land. And we see that happened several times. Abraham knew this land.

46:25

He left this land. He didn't come back to it because he was looking for a greater land. And it's the land to come in the new heavens and the new earth.

46:35

Right. And that that being that all the not yet. And it's more tangible than if you were to go right now, fly to Jerusalem and stand in the land of Canaan, the land of Jerusalem.

46:48

You can touch it. Right. But the greater fulfillment is when

46:53

Jesus Christ returns and the new heavens and the new earth come to earth. Right.

46:59

Right. That is what Abraham was looking to. So Abraham, being the man of faith, saw a physical land and he knew that that was not the land that he was looking to.

47:11

He was looking to something greater. And yet today we have Christians who are focused on the earthly and they're not looking to the heavenly.

47:20

My advice to them would be this. Come on over to all millennialism and be a covenant and be a reformed

47:29

Baptist who host to 1689 federalism. Because this this conversation, we wanted to do this conversation because we were discussing.

47:38

As an amillennialist saying that we have something already, but not yet. Too many

47:43

Christians like premillennialists and postmillennialists are wanting the not yet to be right now.

47:49

And therefore they they ignore what we already have today in Christ. They want what we are.

47:56

Listen, it's scary. Like this is this is a frightening reality that many Christians have been duped into thinking.

48:02

I have to have what's not yet. And I can't and I am going to ignore what already is in the process.

48:08

If you think that today that just having faith in Christ is only salvation, which is a miracle and wonderful and great in itself.

48:16

But if that's it, you are ignoring the rest of the things that Christ has brought and accomplished to us.

48:22

Hebrews tells us that we are in the land. He tells us that we're sat with him in the heavenly places.

48:28

He says we're a part of that true mountain of Zion, that we are a part of heavenly Jerusalem, that we have come to the festal gatherings.

48:37

Like if you don't like this is this is the issue. I think premillennialists and postmillennialists, you don't take church seriously.

48:48

Millennialists are the only ones that are saying we have it now. And this is what we're celebrating on the

48:54

Lord's Day right now. What they're looking forward to. We're we're we have it now.

49:01

We are living in it now. We are right now living in God's heavenly kingdom as his heavenly kingdom people in an already and not yet.

49:12

That's right. That's right. Going going to a great picture of two tier typology, the two functions in Hebrews states that the blood of goats and bulls cannot take away the sin.

49:24

And yet the blood did take away sin. This is the clearest example of typology and the function that I'm reading out of it.

49:30

Renahan's book again, the blood and goats of the bulls took away the sins only on the level of purification of the flesh.

49:37

The earthly, right? The earthly, but it could not purify the conscience.

49:43

Animal blood was a way to satisfy the demands of the Mosaic covenant in order to remain in Canaan. Physical promises in order to be in good standing with God.

49:53

He would be good in good standing with God. And he would read temporal promises, good things, blessings within within the nation

50:01

Israel. But it could never satisfy the demands of the covenant of works in order to escape hell.

50:07

The beauty of the typology is that some that in sometime this entire system was designed to teach the

50:13

Israelites about the substitutionary atonement and the remissions of sins through the blood of Christ.

50:20

This is what it pointed to. So so the typology function on two levels, the earthly level, the animal sacrifices had a real function and purpose and meaning.

50:30

And that meaning was substantially distinct from the antitype Christ. The blood of goats and bulls is not the blood of Christ.

50:39

And their forgiveness was not the forgiveness that Christ's blood affords. Nevertheless, they made

50:45

Christ's forgiveness known. So it pointed to Christ. That's two tiered typology right there.

50:52

Clearly in chapter 10. Well, most of all Hebrews is landed out. The chapter 10 beginning in verse one kind of walks through what you're saying.

51:02

Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff, man. I'm telling you, man, if you want to have if you want to study the

51:11

Bible and have a blast at doing so, adopt two tier typology and have one system to interpret the

51:20

Bible from beginning to end. From Genesis to Revelation. And we call it Baptist covenant idealism.

51:28

That's right. Yeah. You know, and what it is, is it's basically the hermeneutic that that everybody's adopted from from the time that's that's studying the

51:43

Bible, which is which is comparing Scripture to Scripture. You're looking at the Old Testament through the lens of Christ, through the lens of the

51:50

New Testament. It sure is the way that Christ first taught the Scripture. And it sure is the way that Paul applies the

51:57

Scripture. It's it's just the way to do it. All right. All right. So look at it.

52:03

So so the ark Noah's ark, it had an earthly fulfillment.

52:09

What was it? It was to say Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, eight people, including animals in the earth.

52:21

Right. And it had it had it had a physical fulfillment.

52:27

Yes. Go over to Peter, first Peter, chapter three. And it compares that to Christ.

52:35

That arc points to a greater fulfillment that we enter into to save us from the wrath of God.

52:44

Mm hmm. That's right here. Typology. That's true. Go ahead.

52:54

I was going to say, look at look at the the brazen serpent of the Old Testament.

52:59

Right. I touched on it today. Right there. It says that the people who were bitten by the snakes, when they looked at the brazen serpent, they were healed.

53:09

Right. They were healed physically. Does that mean that they were healed solidifically? No, physically. Oh, when we look to Christ, we are healed solidifically.

53:20

What's that? Are you saying that's so it's pointing to something better? Yeah, absolutely.

53:27

Way better. Way better. I mean, which is better to be healed physically or to be healed spiritually?

53:37

Right. And I'll give you an example for you to think about. All right. So so Jesus is in a house.

53:42

He's preaching and teaching. And these four friends have a friend who is unable to walk.

53:48

They cannot get into the house. And so they go up on top of the roof. They lift the latch.

53:54

I don't think they tore into the roof because at this time they would be a lot of people. The Jews would hang out on the roofs.

54:01

Right. Because it was cooler at night. Wow. So that incident.

54:08

Yes. Yeah. I ruined it. Right. And so they pull up the latch and they lower their friend who is paralyzed down inside.

54:17

The first thing Jesus did was not heal the man. He forgave his sins. Amen. The second thing he did was heal them.

54:25

And I ask you this. If you were in that man's place, what would be the greatest need?

54:34

The forgiveness of sins or the healing of his physical body? Forgiveness of sins.

54:41

The forgiveness of sins. The earthly points to a greater reality, a greater substance.

54:48

And that is eternal life with God for all. Eternal life with God.

54:55

Our sins are forgiven. Right. Well, and then go back to the premillennialists and the postmillennialists.

55:01

You're making the same mistakes that the Pharisees were making. What did they think was the greater miracle that day?

55:08

The physical side of things. Because anyone can claim to forgive sins, but it's only God that can do that. But you can raise this person.

55:16

They were wanting the physical signs over and over and over again. And it wasn't good enough.

55:21

It wasn't good enough. That's why it's so important. That's why I think all millennialists get this right.

55:27

They're celebrating truly the fullness of what Christ has brought to us today in the new covenant.

55:33

While also expecting that Christ is coming again. Say that again. We're celebrating.

55:39

Why are we celebrating? Because it's what the Lord has done. Today's the Lord's day for Pete's sake.

55:46

We have. What are we doing? We have what

55:51

God has promised to us. Like right now. Take Isaiah chapter 9.

55:58

Let's turn there real quick. Is this when you're going to say something about me?

56:06

What? You were going to talk about how God has really helped reform you.

56:12

And the Spirit has helped aid into that. But I'm the real catalyst is what you're supposed to say. And you're supposed to say thank you.

56:18

This is the part where you say thank you. Thank you for making me. Brayden, you have challenged me and helped on my theology.

56:29

100%. However. Put a period there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

56:35

Have you changed your theology on certain things by arguing with me?

56:41

I can't hear what you're saying. That's what I thought you jack leg. Look, I will unashamedly say that you have helped me tremendously,

56:50

Jeff. Yeah, you have helped me too. Look, I don't I don't even say I need to say. However, after that,

56:55

I'll just say thank you. All right.

57:01

Isaiah chapter 9. Look at verse 6. For to us, a child assuming for to us, a child is born to us.

57:11

A son is given. All right. So that has a literal fulfillment, like like if you're pointing to Christ, because there is a teacher typology here.

57:21

However, the second tier has a literal fulfillment. Right.

57:28

Mary gave the virgin gave birth to a son. All right. So now we're going to see this spiritual fulfillment, which a lot of people are saying now this is going to happen.

57:38

And then when he returns and there's going to be a thousand years, so on and so forth. Right. These premillennials, it says in the government shall be upon his shoulders.

57:47

His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace and the increase of the government and peace.

57:55

There will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it, to hold on, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from this time forth and forevermore.

58:11

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this. Now, I say that that when

58:17

Christ came. He not only is he has he has this started, it's being fulfilled.

58:29

Acts chapter two tells us that when he rose from the dead, he sat on the throne of David. All right.

58:36

He is ruling and reigning and he's putting all of his enemies under his feet. This is not something that's going to happen whenever he does a rapture of the church.

58:48

He returns to the earth for a thousand years and he's establishing this physically. This is a spiritual prophecy.

58:55

And I would argue that this spiritual prophecy has more substance than anything that is earthly that we find in the

59:03

Old Testament. Yeah. Why would why would we want Christ on a physical throne right now?

59:10

We want him in heaven at the right hand of the father forever interceding for those who are in him. And in fact, it says that we are seated with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus right now.

59:22

Already, even though we're sitting right here, we're seated with him right now. Increasingly.

59:30

Yes. Yes. So Jake is he'll be a member of our church next week. Yeah, we're going to have him on here one day.

59:39

So, yes. So Jake knows that I'm optimistic, but he also knows that my optimistic is different than from a postmortem optimistic.

59:47

So, yeah. Yeah. But I am optimistic Christ right now. He is ruling.

59:53

He is raining. He is putting all of his enemies under his feet and the last enemy to be destroyed is death. And sin has a connection with death.

01:00:00

Because when Adam's sin, sin and death came into the world, when he when

01:00:07

Christ comes back and he puts the last enemy under his feet, death, that means there will also be no more sin.

01:00:16

What's up? I'm not going to worship him. I don't know if you can even see it right now. Not a question, a comment.

01:00:24

What you just stated, the joys that we have in Christ currently are not tied with the world physically getting better or being born

01:00:33

Christianized. Right. We're saying we have this now. Now. Right now.

01:00:39

They had it in the first century. Peter, when he died, gruesomely had the joy that we have today.

01:00:47

Yeah. It doesn't come and go here. Yeah. It don't matter. The harshest persecution.

01:00:53

You, you being burned at the stake. You have it now. And there's victory now. There's victory already.

01:01:00

It's done. It's finished. They are, if you believe the doctrine of saint.

01:01:11

I'm trying to figure out. Listen, all millennialism is where it's at.

01:01:18

Although I do think that the name deceives, right? Because we, we, we, we believe that the king, this, this millennial is first advent to second advent.

01:01:32

And this is why I would argue that, that all modern day post mills are really all mills.

01:01:38

Yeah. Because we believe the same. They believe the same thing that we believe is that, that, that the millennium is right now from first advent to second advent.

01:01:48

And we will be post mill in the sense that we believe that, that when Christ returns will be the end of the millennium.

01:01:56

Right. And so it's kind of, there's kind of an overlap there, but historical post mill.

01:02:02

Go ahead. No, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Go ahead. Yeah. So the historical post mill are pointing to a future time of a, of a literal, some say literal, some say it doesn't have to be literal of a thousand years of peace on earth.

01:02:20

Prior to Christ coming again. Yeah. Prior to Christ coming. Like that will basically.

01:02:27

Yep. There's a point that this golden age hits and then that golden age is, is the.

01:02:32

They kind of fall on the same sword as a dispensationalist. Yeah. Like you were saying earlier, right?

01:02:42

They're looking for earthly blessings and fulfillment. And we would say, you know, we have this fulfillment and it doesn't have to be earthly blessings, but it is what we've received in our, our, our, our

01:02:54

Pauline Geneseo, our regeneration, our being united with Christ and his death. I am in him.

01:03:00

He is in me. I am filled with the Holy Spirit. I am the bride of Christ. I long to be with my bridegroom, so on and so forth.

01:03:07

Yeah. And I would just say that the post mills today are really just, and I say this in severe love, right?

01:03:14

But there are mills that are ignoring the rest of chapter 20 after verse six, because it says that after verse six, that Satan will be released, deceive the nations and encircle the camp of Christians.

01:03:27

If your eschatology has to have a, a glorious heralding in of Christ to come back, that goes against what revelation 20 says, because right after that, it says that that's, that's when it's done.

01:03:41

That's when, when judgment takes place is after that. So Christ comes back to a world that's seeking the blood of his bride.

01:03:59

So, like, I don't see anything I disagree with.

01:04:05

Yeah. Because physical fruit, the growth of Christ kingdom on that inevitably changed the world in a real physical way.

01:04:17

Not necessarily. I wouldn't say necessarily. I mean, I mean, like, it's going to change.

01:04:22

So it depends on how far you extend that physical way. Yeah. The kingdom of God is growing right now, right?

01:04:32

We know that it's the mustard seed, right? Exactly. It's growing, but go look outside.

01:04:39

You don't see it. It's invisible. And I mean, you might have some places in some areas in South America where they're experiencing some revival and stuff like that, but it's not necessarily.

01:04:50

I mean, it didn't work out so well for the apostles. There will never be an earthly establishment of the kingdom of God until Christ returns.

01:05:00

That's right. If there's ever a time where you can say, look, there it is, then you might as well get rid of Pauline Geneseo because no one can see the kingdom of heaven unless they're born again.

01:05:12

Right. Weeds and tares grow together. The weeds and tares. Yeah. Now, however, there is physical aspects of fruit, right?

01:05:20

If you are faithful with little, God will bless you with much. Right. And as and again, it started with twelve, started with twelve.

01:05:28

And year after year after year, the church is growing. It's growing. It's that stone that was cut out by no human hands that strikes the statue that becomes a mountain that covers the earth.

01:05:42

Right. However, there's no physical, tangible substance to it outside of the people that are in it.

01:05:49

Exactly. That's right. Amen. Yeah.

01:05:57

Yeah. I just I just I just said that. Yeah, we would be saying the living conditions are way better than five hundred.

01:06:04

I mean, you know, again, it depends on where you go. I mean, here. I mean,

01:06:09

I mean, are we doing better? I mean, I see a D. I see us digressing. The more the more we will learn through through technology and all that.

01:06:20

There is more distractions. The the depravity of man is still raging.

01:06:25

Like like Brayden said, that the way the wheat and tare grows together, the kingdom of God is going to grow together.

01:06:32

But the majority of people, the fact matter, if you're waiting for for the majority of people, that this entire world is going to be

01:06:37

Christian, it's not going to happen. It's not now. To the point of the Postmills defense, like there's there is no established number.

01:06:47

Like is it is it 50 percent? Is it 75 percent? Is it 95 percent?

01:06:52

Like there's there's no way. Yeah, there's no way to weigh that. Right. Like like I myself,

01:06:59

I believe that the church, you know, like so, you know, this as well as I do when things are going good.

01:07:07

Sometimes people don't really rely on God. Right. They only call out to God when things are going wrong in their life.

01:07:15

There's this old song, you know, the God on the mountaintop is the God in the valley. Right. He's the same

01:07:21

God. But but when things are going good, people don't see a need to call upon him. Right. So I have the understanding of.

01:07:28

So when I talk about my optimism, my optimism, it would be in persecution. I believe the church thrives in persecution.

01:07:36

Whenever things are going good, the church doesn't do so well.

01:07:43

Right. So my my view of victory being almost as well with my victories and what

01:07:48

Christ has done for me on that cross, that that's where the victory is. It's already won.

01:07:54

Well, well, not only in victory, because we're always we're always thinking that he's only glorified in salvation. God is also glorified in judging sinners because he's righteous and just.

01:08:04

So God's word is going to accomplish exactly what he sets out to do. And that might be save some and that might be judged some and throw them in hell.

01:08:14

Either way, God is glorified. He's glorified in his mercy and his grace and his love by the people whom he chooses to save.

01:08:21

And he's also glorified by condemning those. He doesn't want to have anything to do that. He's let them go.

01:08:28

He's forsaken them. You know, so he gets victory either way. He's glorified because he's

01:08:34

God. And so he's going to accomplish exactly what he sets out to do. And by grace, we're saved.

01:08:41

That's right. And I would just say doing the 1689 covenant idealism, reform

01:08:48

Baptist idealism, whatever we're calling it again. I forgot what it was. But when you look at Revelation 11, which is about the two witnesses that's talking about the entirety of all what

01:08:58

I would argue is all the elect, all the people of God in Christ. Right. And then you tie that recapitulation to Chapter 20.

01:09:06

And guess what we see? We see the same story being told to us over and over again. And the question has to be posed.

01:09:15

Yes, the church does grow in persecution, but there will be a day that the world will not look good.

01:09:21

And that's when Christ comes again. That's what it's when it's when all the nations are staring at the dead bodies of the two in the street.

01:09:29

When Satan is released for a short time. Revelation 20, Satan is released.

01:09:35

And they come and they circle about the camp.

01:09:41

That's when Christ comes again. So, again, I don't think Christ comes to the world proclaiming and shouting out with trumpets because of how well it's been changed by Christianity.

01:09:51

No, Christ comes to a world saying, murder them, murder them, murder them. And he vindicates the bride in that last moment.

01:10:01

Yeah. Yeah, there's going to be a great falling away.

01:10:07

We know that there's going to be a great falling away. I think it's important that you just said when

01:10:12

Satan is released. But at the same time right now, he's bound in the fact that he cannot prevent the gospel from going to accomplish exactly what he set out to do.

01:10:23

Satan is bound in terms of where the gospel is going to be. Right.

01:10:29

And Satan is bound in the sense, too, that he, though curtailed, is a great way of looking at this.

01:10:37

Satan is not just this free agent doing whatever he wants. God is using –

01:10:43

I think the devil is God's devil. God has ownership over the devil.

01:10:50

And he's not able to do that good against God's sovereign plan.

01:10:58

Gosh dang it. Well, the point I'm going with that, though, is that in Revelation 20, what's being taught here is the confidence that we should have as Christians that Satan will not destroy the bride of Christ.

01:11:13

Even when the two witnesses are looking – when the whole world has been deceived and the whole world that hates

01:11:20

Christ and the two witnesses comes and stares at them or comes and encircles the camp, guess what?

01:11:27

We're still not ultimately conquered by the world. Christ vindicates us. So even when things look absolutely – so again, the picture painted there is it looks dreary outside.

01:11:36

It looks terrible and horrid outside. Meanwhile, the kingdom is growing.

01:11:45

Meanwhile, it's growing. And also the pattern of Scripture for the last 2 ,000 years, Jake, is that there's been a remnant.

01:11:52

There's been a remnant all the way through the pattern. That is the pattern. And just as Christ conquered in suffering, we too.

01:12:01

Yeah, the church conquers in suffering. We're going to bear the marks. We're going to bear the scars. We're going to bear the trials and the tribulations.

01:12:10

What does he say? They will hate you because they hate me. I don't ever see a day where Christianity reigns in such a way that we're paraded as something great in the eyes of the world.

01:12:25

Right. And if that was the day, I would not expect Christ to be coming anytime soon if that day was to take place.

01:12:32

Let's say if in 100 years from now, the world was very welcoming to Christianity. Scripture sends this lean to say

01:12:39

Christ comes back on a dark day. Yeah, a dark day when they're trying to kill the church.

01:12:45

Revelation 11, Revelation chapter 20. The church is persecuted to the point of being stomped out, which is not going to be stomped out.

01:12:56

But it, you know, on the onlookers, it looks like it. And that's I don't think that's pessimism.

01:13:02

I think that's optimism that Christ is going to come back for his church and that he's growing.

01:13:07

But so the two. Can I answer this question? This is really good. All right. Who are the two witnesses?

01:13:14

All right. So. So first of all, the text will let you know that it's not to write.

01:13:21

It says the two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands.

01:13:28

Now, what's two plus two for. All right. So we cannot take the number two as literal.

01:13:36

All right. So the olive tree. So Jesus is the olive tree. We are the new covenant.

01:13:42

The covenant. Right. Gentiles are grafted into an already existing olive tree, which is

01:13:48

God's people. We believe as Reformed Baptists that the church listen, dispensationalists, don't get your paintings up in a bunch.

01:13:58

We are Israel. All right. And you go to Revelation. So if you look in Revelation, chapter one,

01:14:05

Revelation, chapter one, get there real quick. Revelation, chapter one.

01:14:14

It speaks about lampstands. Right. But I mean, you get over here to verse.

01:14:20

Let's look. Verse 19. It says, right. Therefore, these things that you have.

01:14:27

I mean, so no, no, no. Excuse me. It's Revelation, chapter one, verse 20. As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angel of the seven churches and the land and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

01:14:51

And so the lampstand represents the church. And so you have to all of trees.

01:14:58

All right. This is God's people, Israel. And the lampstands is the church.

01:15:04

The church is Israel. All right. And we, as God's people, the two prophets.

01:15:13

Are prophesying calling people to repentance throughout the church age.

01:15:19

And so that's how we would recognize you to churches in the in the letters sent to the seven are not given a rebuke.

01:15:27

And so price already establishes in the book what the lampstands mean. The reason why

01:15:32

God or why Christ in that revelation uses two witnesses is he's saying those other churches are not being faithful witnesses right now.

01:15:40

Two witnesses, two lampstands. He's talking about the faithful church that is going forth with the gospel.

01:15:46

They're representative of all the elect. That's what that's what they represent, ultimately. And the church is

01:15:52

Israel. Amen. So it's not Moses and Elijah or Elijah and Enoch.

01:16:01

It's us. The book of Revelation tells us who it is. Right. It's that simple.

01:16:08

And then you go to Zachariah and then go to Zachariah. I can't remember the exact chapter.

01:16:14

And then Romans chapter 11. Well, and then also think about what that would mean, because you have to take the grammatical historical approach as well with this.

01:16:22

That this letter is written to suffering churches who see a dark and dreary, depressing world outside that's calling for their blood.

01:16:31

And what does this encourage them? Think think of them for a moment. If you are one of the churches that received a rebuke and you're sitting there thinking,

01:16:40

I'm not being one of the faithful witnesses. I've lost my I've lost my first love like that would be convicting.

01:16:48

And now think about if you were one of the faithful witnesses, you're being told the world's going to hate you.

01:16:54

They're going to kill you. Yeah. But great news. Christ will vindicate the church.

01:17:02

And so listen, the book of Revelation is written to a suffering church, suffering churches, and is meant to give them the ultimate hope that Christ Jesus is king and he will come back one day.

01:17:14

And that to die in the flesh means nothing for us. That's right. Our death is secure in Christ and his resurrection has secured our life.

01:17:22

Yeah. Amen. Good stuff.

01:17:28

Yep. That's an incredible tattoo.

01:17:35

Three crosses. It must be Michelle must be talking about you, Jeff. What?

01:17:42

You got three crosses. On my hand. Yeah. That's so when he punches somebody, he's giving the gospel at the same time.

01:17:57

Good stuff. Before we end it, there was one that we wanted to end on concerning typology.

01:18:07

I can't remember what it was. Y 'all remember? It was Hebrews 8 verse 13.

01:18:15

The new covenant? Yeah. I thought that's what it was. I can't remember.

01:18:21

I know we might have touched said something. I think I might have said something. The verse talking about the old covenant, the covenant of Moses that says whatever is growing old is ready to whatever is obsolete is growing old and ready to disappear.

01:18:35

So that covenant had very tangible promises, earthly blessings, required obedience.

01:18:41

And Christ says that the end of that is served as a copy. Verse five. It served as it served as a copy and a shadow of heavenly things.

01:18:50

So speaking of the law, it served as a copy and a shadow of heavenly things, which it which is fulfillment is in Jesus Christ.

01:19:03

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, brother.

01:19:10

So I don't know when, but we're supposed to be interviewing

01:19:15

Braden concerning Mormonism. And we would like the show afterwards.

01:19:22

We would like to interview you concerning Jehovah Witnesses. Yeah. That would be awesome.

01:19:29

I can't remember if you said that you had the way for you to be able to get on a podcast and be interviewed.

01:19:38

So let us know if you don't.

01:19:45

You'll just have to go sit on Jeff's lap as both be recorded at the same time. That's right.

01:19:55

No, no. Did he? Okay. Yeah.

01:20:06

All right. Let me go. Yep. Bro. We have a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses here in Texas.

01:20:11

I mean, they are all over. They don't say nothing. They just, they just hang out in their little literature stands and they, they don't say anything.

01:20:19

I wouldn't want to do that. It's going to make your, your butt cheek.

01:20:29

It's cheek tingle again. Remember that testosterone shopping? Your gross stories.

01:20:39

Oh, my God. I got a weak stomach. I can't handle that grossness. Right. Why does it make you dude?

01:20:45

I did say the word, but today in my sermon. Like, but God being rich in mercy.

01:20:52

Is that like B U T T? Oh, you use the B B U double hockey stick or button?

01:20:58

No, it's not. Double cross. Double cross. That's H E double hockey stick. Nevermind. Yeah. I got down and I was like, you use the word, but and I'm like, there's something wrong with it.

01:21:09

I mean, I, I, I, I preached a sermon one time called Abraham a pimp. Also assemblies of God at that time.

01:21:18

So you got to give me a pass. Always reforming

01:21:25

Jeff. Always. Yeah. Always reform it. Right. Anyway, we'll close with that. Braden, any last words?

01:21:37

I don't know. I don't know. How do you feel? Love you guys. Subscribe.

01:21:43

Share this around. Tell your friends and family, first of all, about Christ and then have them subscribe to open air theology.

01:21:49

I want you to tell them about our conference coming up. Yeah. So that's some good news.

01:21:56

Since you hear about Christ justifying those that have faith in him on this show, that's not the ends for a

01:22:04

Christian life. We're called to be sanctified. And that's what we're doing this next year's conference on in 2025 in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

01:22:11

The address is still to be announced because there's a chance there might be a change of address if you brothers and sisters are praying for Jeff to get that new church.

01:22:22

So hopefully that thing is in Jeff's hand, Jeff and his church's hands, because that'll be a great blessing for them on the

01:22:29

Lord's Day and just overall as a church in general. But also, that'd be a great place to do a conference.

01:22:34

But regardless, it's in Tullahoma, Tennessee, February 2025. The title of the conference is called

01:22:40

War, and it's on the topic of sanctification. There's going to be some great speakers, of which

01:22:47

I am the least. So please go check it out. You know what?

01:22:52

And I'm just going to go ahead and say this, that it's possible that there might be two open air theology conferences.

01:23:02

What? Not just one, but two.

01:23:08

Hey, did you know where there's also a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses? California. Are there?

01:23:15

There's a lot. Where do you go, Jake? California, California and Texas. We're going to pack you and take you up there.

01:23:22

That's right. That's right. I'll meet you there. Yeah. Any last words,

01:23:28

Tom? We appreciate you guys watching. We love doing this.

01:23:35

We love being able to talk about God and the stories that we're going through. We hack on each other and we love each other.

01:23:41

We love you guys, too. Keep on watching and share it. We have a blast doing it.

01:23:47

That's right. And as was stated earlier, please, please, please keep us in your prayers.

01:23:53

Keep our church in your prayers, concerning that we might have an opportunity to get a an actual church building.

01:24:00

I haven't been able to sleep. They gave me the key the other day. I've been able to go through there and just check it out and allow people from our congregation to go check it out.

01:24:09

It's really nice. It would be a wonderful blessing. So if you all would please covet with me and praying that the

01:24:17

Lord will give this, give us this church building, that would be fantastic. And if you're ever in Tallahoma, Tennessee, during the conference or after the conference or before the conference, please come check us out.

01:24:31

Come worship with us. It would be a great joy to have you. And as always, hallelujah.