141: A Pilgrim's Coffer

The Church Belongs to Christ, Not to Us

To the Ruled Church Podcast.

This is my beloved son, with whom I am well pleased. He is honored, and I get the glory. And by the way, it's even better, because you see that building in Perryville, Arkansas? You see that one in Pechote, Mexico?

Do you see that one in Tuxla, Guterres, down there in Chiapas? That building has my son's name on it.

The church is not a democracy, it's a monarchy. Christ is king.

You can't be Christian without a local church.

You can't do anything better than to bend your knee and bow your heart, turn from your sin and repentance, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and join up with a good Bible-believing church, and spend your life serving Jesus in a local, visible congregation.

Rural Church, Reformed Baptist Identity, and Local Church Faithfulness

Well, it's a chilly January. Actually, I have no idea, because this is coming out in January, but we're recording this in December, brother. People who are listening have no idea that it's December 17th, because I think this is probably gonna come out around January 7th.

So, or no, it should be January 14th. But welcome to the Rural Church Podcast. I am your host, Alan Nelson. I'm one of the pastors at Providence Baptist Church. We are a Reformed Baptist Church in central Arkansas, Perryville, right in the center of the state, really.

And I have a great brother with us this morning. This is Pilgrim's Coffer himself, a Pilgrim's Coffer himself, Jared Payne. How are you doing today, brother?

Good, good. I'm glad to be able to chat with you for a little bit.

I think you were the last time that you were in Arkansas, or maybe the only time. Have you been to Arkansas more than once?

No, that's the only time.

So the last time that you were in Arkansas, that was 2021, right?

Yep, for that conference out there with Grace, right?

Yep, yep.

I picked you up at the airport, and you actually stayed with us. And at that point, we were Perryville Second Baptist Church, but we have undergone some, Lord has brought some beautiful changes. And so we were on the road to Reformation then, but the Lord has accelerated that.

And so God's been very gracious to us. So I'm grateful for that. So now it's Providence Baptist Church for the last, oh well, two and a half years.

Which is funny because that's our church's name too.

Are you serious?

Yeah, Providence Baptist Church, Asheboro, North Carolina, yep.

Wow, okay, so we're Providence Baptist Perryville campus. So we're like one big name now.

That's right, that's right.

Yeah, so to start out, tell us a little bit about your church then. I'm intrigued. I guess I didn't know that, Providence Baptist. So tell us about your church.

Church Planting, Growth, and Missions in a Small Congregation

Yeah, so we're a particular Baptist church here in Asheboro. And when my wife and I were looking for a church in the area, as you can imagine, there's not that many Calvinistic Reformed churches around, especially when you get kind of in the Bible belt.

It can be quite hit or miss. Now these days, since we were looking for a church at that point, it seems like there's been more of a resurgence. We're starting to see some more churches kind of pop up that teach the doctrines of grace and what have you.

And so, but at the time, we had looked out probably using, probably Founders, you know, Founders Church Search that they have online. I probably might've looked at a few others and we did find Providence in Asheboro there and we found out they were a church plant from about 30 minutes away, from a church about 30 minutes away.

And so, yeah, that's how we found it. And really, that's probably the only thing that was around in, you know, kind of a 30 to 45 minute radius, honestly. And there may be some others, but you know, when you do find them occasionally, they're just not very, I don't know if I would say advertised but, you know, it's just hard to find out about them.

And so, we started looking for the church right around, right before all the COVID stuff hit.

Oh, okay, yeah.

And so, was getting ready to go visit and then COVID hit. And so, I had to wait until, they weren't closed an extended amount of time. Of course, nobody really knew what was going on. So, it was a little bit of time and then they started having, the building that we were in had a garage roll up doors at the back.

So, then they started rolling those up and letting people sit outside and come for the church services and things like that. And so, that put a little bit of delay in there, but we hung in there and said, no, we wanna visit this church and give it, you know, a good chance.

And it's been such a blessing. I really believe that folks, if you overlook, you know, you've probably heard many people say this, but if we overlook these smaller churches, just because they're small, you're making a terrible mistake, you know.

Go to the churches nearest to the Bible, you know.

Yes.

Yeah, be there. And we've seen growth. I mean, we've got a lot of young couples, a lot of, I wish I could have, would have thought about this beforehand, but I bet since we've been there, including having two of our own, there's probably been at least, at least four or five more babies born since we got there.

And when we came to the church, it was a church of, you know, maybe a hundred that were on the list, but it included some, you know, kind of your shut-ins, and it had some people that were, had been coming, but with health and things.

And so we've seen tremendous growth just being faithful, and, you know, and really seeing the Lord work in that. We have a pastor's school that we started in Africa. And so we were working with, the church was working before we got there, had been in a relationship with some missionaries there, who the missionaries were from South Africa, and they had been working with them for some time.

And unfortunately, the husband passed away, and it had been on our elders' hearts, really, to invest even more in the pastors that they had come to know in that area. And so, yeah, we've got a pastor's school there, and we have, literally have pastors coming from across the country.

And I mean, these guys, some of these guys do not have the means to be doing this, and they are learning about the doctrines of grace, learning about scripture, learning the real meat of the gospel, and they are just on fire for it, and it's just been a wonderful thing to see.

So we have, we visit, our church goes at least quarterly, and has classes, do tests, and all sorts of these things for the pastors over there. So yeah, it's been a blessing. Our church, the Lord has really worked through our church, especially considering our size.

You say your size, how big are you guys? What's the size?

Now we might be, you know, maybe 120, maybe.

Wow, that's a good, that's a good size. Now you gotta remember, brother, you are on.

Now, I don't mean 120 necessarily there every Sunday.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm trying to talk about the book, but when I got there, you were probably talking, you know, you might've been talking 40 to 50 people in the seats, and I would say now we probably, you know, we probably see, you know, we might see 60 to 80 or 90, you know, it just kind of depend.

And we do have a lot that we're, like I said, we're older and kind of are unable to be there. But we do have sermon audio out and some of those things for our elders, but go ahead.

No, I was just saying, you're on the Rural Church Podcast. So we love all churches, rural churches. Now to be rural doesn't necessarily mean you are small, but we love all churches. And I think it's amazing that God, it's amazing what God does.

I think sometimes, we left the Southern Baptist Convention in 2025. And I think a lot of people are afraid to do that because they're afraid sometimes about, not everybody, but some, they're afraid that they'll lose impact, you know, and they think about the big, but God is pleased to work through small things and small churches.

And He loves His church. And even, you know, like what you guys are doing in South Africa, we have some, and we have some connections with Mexico. We're doing some things and it's really a beautiful thing.

But anyway, so we, it is

Well, let me give you just a little more encouragement since this is the Rural Church Podcast, right? So this church has been truly just an independent church, not IFB church, right? Just independent church, just not affiliated with anything.

And, but just to give some encouragement, this, you know, we're not large, we're, you know, we're not, I'm sure there's plenty of smaller churches, but, you know, in the scheme of American Christianity type things that we're used to today, a small church, but we have had, we have had people who do not go to our church, who are contacts with our elders, who have, we have used and collected for the mission work that we do directly.

I mean, now we do support some through some of like the master's seminary, some of their international groups that have schools in Europe and some different places. But, you know, we've got missionaries in some different places, Central America, and that we support.

The pastor school has been, of course, a passion of ours, but we've had some years. Now you're talking a church of, as far as regular attendance, under a hundred, right? We've had some years where people who have found out what we're doing and what we're seeking to do and what we're laboring to do.

And you're talking, we've had people help us be able to use six figures, bring it overseas for a church of a hundred. And we start, the church's story, and I won't go through all that, but the Lord has been present in so many steps.

I mean, when they didn't have a church, they, and we're looking for a place to be, you know, really praying as to whether, you know, Lord, do you want us here? Is this what we should be doing? Had one of the churches here that was kind of dwindling, that was just, you know, a couple of families were still there, come to them and say, hey, we wanna give you our church and our checking account.

I mean, you know, which wasn't anything outrageous, right? But was the Lord working to provide, from point A to point B. Now, the Lord gives and the Lord takes. They were given that church, and a couple of years later, found out the whole basement was collecting moisture and toxic mold was building up, had to burn the church down.

Wow.

They had to take, and then the Lord provided for them to relocate. And so the Lord has just, has worked a lot, and through, you know, the elders' faithfulness and the church's faithfulness, and, you know, I hope that it's an encouragement that, especially with today's interconnectedness and with the ability that we have to, you know, quickly communicate and more quickly raise funds and some of these things, that small churches today have more accessibility and accessibility to funds and fundraising and more ability to go out and serve in the world than ever before.

Amen, brother. I'm all in on the local church. So that's good. That's encouraging to hear you say that. And what I wanted to have you on today for, let's see, I had this pulled up just a second ago. Yep, there it is.

I'm on a pilgrimscoffer .com. It's spelt just like it sounds there. A pilgrimscoffer .com. And why don't you tell us a little bit, okay, first of all, what is a pilgrimscoffer? I think you had, I know that this was kind of, was it started in 2021 already when we, I remember us talking about some things, but I do know since then things have really taken off.

So just, I'm going to give you the floor, talk to us about what is a pilgrimscoffer? What's the vision of this? What are you doing? And then we'll get into hearing a little bit about some projects you've got upcoming.

A Pilgrim's Coffer and the Preservation of Old Christian Books

Yeah, so it's really started, a lot of it's been just kind of an evolution of sorts. Didn't really, wouldn't have thought I would be doing at this point what I am doing. But when I started a pilgrimscoffer, I probably technically started it in concept, not as a business or anything, you know, not from that front, a business, but really more of, you know, more of a labor for the church, but, you know, as far as technically being a business where you're selling things.

But I started this as a way, you know, a coffer. In my mind, I was thinking kind of like the Puritans coming over to America. You know, the old coffers that they had were kind of looked like, you know, kind of looked like your quilting, you know, your quilt cabinets at the end of your bed, you know, that kind of thing, the old style, but they had a lock on them.

And that was really, you know, like the kind of like our modern safes. Of course, that was not very safe in the scheme of things, but, you know, that's what they had to lock their valuables in, their family valuables and whatnot.

And so that was kind of my thought in putting together this idea of a pilgrimscoffer was a place where I could kind of keep my resources and keep my information, my quotes, you know, a lot of these things, because after spending so many years in tax accounting that I had spent, I was, you know, my mind had gotten conditioned to keeping track of where things are.

And I knew, oh, I'm gonna go through and I'm gonna read this volume or I'm gonna be looking for something. And there's gonna be just an absolutely stellar quote or there's going to be a sermon notes, a sermon breakdown that I'm gonna wanna go back and reference later.

And so I said, if I don't keep this stuff together, I can go through hundreds of volumes and it's not gonna do me any good if I can't go back and find it later. And so that was kind of what I was thinking.

And so I started, I really started a pilgrimscoffer as a WordPress. And so I was just trying to figure out how to make some pages with tables where I could start collating, you know, quotes by topic and this and that.

Things that weren't the mainstream, you know, the common things that you heard and kind of give, I figured if I was gonna be going through it rather than put it in an Excel page or whatnot, I should, if I'm gonna do the work, I may as well make it easy for somebody else to access.

So we're not duplicating efforts here. And so, yeah, so that's what I started doing. And then, you know, part of doing this type of work, the part-time work, which, you know, sometimes at times can feel like a full-time job, or at least it did for some periods throughout, is accessing the old materials, tracking down the old materials, getting ahold of them.

What's your process, Matt, tracking down materials?

You know, I mean, when you start out, you're just opening up eBay and looking. And, you know, you're just, I don't, I mean, you have no idea. And occasionally as you go through, you find out more, you run into somebody who collects and they've got extras.

And then they might say, hey, check with this person or, you know, those types of things.

Have you ever stumbled upon like a yard sale or like an estate sale and just found something?

I've gone, I don't think I have yard sales. I'm trying to think if my brother has, my brother's picked up a few little things for me here and there. I have it at, you know, like antique shops and stuff.

You know, you'll find just some old books and it'll be in kind of the Christian section there. And they don't know who, you know, some of these guys are, but yeah, it depends. You gotta be, I would say certain parts of the country are probably better for it.

You know, you get down here, most of the old Christian books you're gonna see down here are probably not ones you and I are gonna spend a whole lot of time reading. Unfortunately, you know, it's gonna be probably more 1930s, 1940s fundamentalism type stuff.

And it's just not, it's a, so, but occasionally you can still find some things there too. But yeah, so that, but then you get, you know, over time you get hooked up with, you know, some of antique book dealers and things overseas and you make friends and it helps.

And so, you know, but the Lord has been very gracious. And this was one of the encouraging things when I decided particularly that I was gonna start publishing. I started collecting original Spurgeon material.

That was, well, Spurgeon to begin with is kind of low hanging fruit, right? You know, we're Baptists, we're here in the States, like that's not exactly going out on a limb. But, so I would try to track down some of his books and then I would obviously try to find some others, but Spurgeon probably had the, had more of my focus.

And I'll pause real quick and I'll say, this was one thing that I had in mind. I had a family friend who was a pastor and what he had told me one time, and I'm not saying I've entirely heeded his words, but I've kept it in mind because it is something that I would like to do.

And I think I've kind of got half of this equation, obviously, but is he said that he had a professor when he was in seminary tell him to find one historical church figure that you want to collect and read everything that you can on and try to become your own little version of an expert, you know, over your life to where you get like, you feel like you really know that person and then find, or not find, choose one book out of the Bible and do the same thing with it and find all the commentaries that are worthwhile and read everything and study it and get to know it and have those kind of as two companions for your life that you really put a little bit more investment in.

I don't mean to an extreme, but something that you can say, hey, you know, 30 years down the road, hey, I put a lot of time into reading about this figure, this pastor, this theologian, whoever it might be.

And this book of the Bible, you know, I've really walked with the Lord in and really tried to mine as much gold as I could out of it.

So Spurgeon's your guy, what's your Bible?

Well, yeah, I hadn't got there. That's so tough. You know, when you get to, I mean, I have my proclivities on some of those things, like, you know, like a Hebrews or the Psalms. The one thing that I'll say is I feel like, you know, Job and the Psalms to some degree cover basically everything else that's in the Bible, you know, which is really neat.

You can find elements of scripture being reflected basically everywhere in those two. But, you know, how easy is it to say, you know, Isaiah or Hebrews or Romans? You know, so I haven't quite gotten there.

I've been collecting a lot of the antique volumes, particularly just because, again, low-hanging fruit makes it so accessible. But a lot of people today, not knocking on this, will go out and buy all sorts of kind of modern commentaries and that's fine, I've got no problem with it.

I don't have any dog in that fight. But very few will go out and look at, you know, Spurgeon's commenting and commentaries volume and see what his recommendations are. And some of those volumes, again, I don't know if this is kind of contributes a little bit to our jump into publishing, but some of those volumes, Spurgeon gives sparkling recommendations for and you can't go out and find a nice new volume anywhere.

Nobody reprints it. And you go, isn't that a little bit wild? You know, they'll read all sorts of things about Spurgeon, but they won't read, but, you know, we move on and don't read what Spurgeon read.

So I'm a little bit biased, of course.

Reprinting Spurgeon's Sermons and Making Old Volumes Accessible

Yeah, so this gets me to a good question here. So what's your theological aim? Like what's your aim for a person who visits a pilgrim's coffer and they buy, like, what are you trying to accomplish in the resources that you have available there to people?

Yeah, so really we're trying to do two things and we're not, of course, exclusively the only ones that would be doing elements of these, but we're trying to start with a focus on Spurgeon, but we've got many more volumes that I would love to get into here in the coming years.

But we're looking at taking some of the older volumes, making them accessible again, as many as possible, re-typesetting them, making them easier to see. We've got so many of the old volumes, whether it's worksets, whether it's Spurgeon sermons, whether, no matter what it is, there's, when it comes to material that's 150 years old or older, there's a lot of it that has never been re-typeset.

They've just photolithographed or scanned the old copies. And so the problems that we run into is, number one, it can be hard to read. I get a lot of older gentlemen tell me, hey, I've seen Spurgeon's original stuff.

I just can't read it. I cannot sit for a long time and read that small a font. And the other thing is that when we don't have it re-typeset, we don't have it digitized. So being able to take an extract out of that edition, requires you to go look at a scan or an original and have to type out that segment versus if we have these volumes available, they're ones where pastors can say, hey, bought this book of yours, I love it.

Could you send me that extract from page whatever? I wanna use it in one of my sermons, or I wanna, if you've got somebody who's also a student, they're gonna use it in their dissertation. They need a reference to it.

We're just trying to make these things readable again, more readable and accessible and kind of make old material kind of great again. And again, I don't have a strong bias against, I of course like the old material.

I like the way that they wrote. I think that they had a little bit, they had a little bit different audiences, but they had a little bit different aims in some regards. And so I think we always need to be learning and reading things that challenge us.

And so that's kind of one of the things that we wanna do. But there's also, once we get past some of this lower hanging fruit, I've said that a few times, but once we get past that, there's a lot of volumes that we have that it was difficult for me to find the original or the latest printing anyway.

And you can't go out and buy it. The best you have maybe if you're lucky is a PDF scan on Google, maybe. And it's a shame because there's so many volumes that even Spurgeon said things like sell what you have but make sure you go buy this book.

And they're not even available anymore. And you're sitting here going, how does this make sense?

I think just from a theological perspective, it's absolutely essential that we find, whether you're a pastor, lay person, that you find opportunity to read some people from the past because we have blind spots in our own age.

They of course had blind spots in their age, but you can read from those who've gone before us. I don't think you should read to the exclusion of contemporary authors because sometimes there are maybe like new word studies or new things that come out.

We do have a lot more ability to dig into some things that they would have loved to have been able to crack open a PC and look at and they didn't.

So I think having a good balance, but yeah, not neglecting these guys. And I like, look, so there's some places out there that you can get some old works on digital, and that's great and I'm thankful for that, but I love to hold books in my hand.

That's just how, I think we, I don't know, maybe not everybody learns like this, but I think I learned better when I'm holding a book in my hand. So I appreciate the republication of these books. So what, so if someone goes to your website, they can find like these old books that I assume that you found or been connected with, these booksellers and stuff, like, well, there's several things sold out here, but I'm looking at sheds.

I got a lot more to put on the old material.

Yeah, like a history of Christian doctrine, two volumes from 1888 or I guess published 1888. From shed, there's, you know, they could find these J .C. Ryle, Knots and Tidewell, that one's sold out right now, but what do you've got, what are you got going on right now that you're really excited about?

The Ongoing Work of Spurgeon's Sermons and the Sword and Trowel

Well, I mean, the primary thing that's just gonna be ongoing is of course our republication of Spurgeon's Sermons. So that's the kind of the bread and butter of what we started. That was something that before we started publishing, we, you know, I started asking some questions to folks.

I may, I think I even kind of posited it to some of the, some publisher folks, but said, why has, you know, why is Spurgeon not been, since Pilgrim Publications, you know, why has Spurgeon not been reprinted?

Why have his sermons not been reprinted? And on top of that, you know, why haven't, why hasn't anybody tried to update it? You know, bring it kind of into 21st century. I mean, you know, we're in the day of AI where, you know, you can find all sorts of material or answers or whatnot in a matter of seconds.

And, you know, but you've got some of these big works that, you know, we've kind of, you know, in a way neglected, you know, and just kind of carried on the original typesetting and whatnot. And the issue with the sermons are that they are unique in that they were very quick weekly productions, right?

So people who know of the pulpit sermons of Spurgeon, these are sermons that were recorded in shorthand on Sunday and were typeset and printed for sale by no later than the next Sunday. So within a week, his sermons, just the amount of words that show up on some of those, you know, that's a pretty, that was a pretty good feat, but they specifically mentioned, including Spurgeon himself in a number of areas, that they were not, you know, they were not able to edit these the way that they would have liked to as if you were producing a work that you could edit kind of at leisure, right?

Because you had such a time limitation. Normal volume, right? You would write it and submit it and have somebody edit it. And then they would take it to typesetting and then they could bring the galley proofs back.

And then you could go back through them line by line and make sure everything was grammatically correct, that the punctuation was exactly what you wanted to be. They had to forego a lot of that. And so a lot of the end result was often the by-product kind of when you work through it logically, kind of the by-product of the typesetter in the shop, putting these together, looking at the handwritten, the cursive shorthand notes, and trying to put this into proper English sentences and do everything like that.

So yeah, but volume four, which is we're supposed to have in a matter of days to mail out, we'll probably be mailing out. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm sitting here doing work through Christmas Eve, getting stuff out, just because this is kind of almost a 365 day thing.

There's just so much to do. But volume four in the preface, Spurgeon says, I've noticed many typographical errors in this volume. And they say, but you'll have to excuse it because we just don't have time to go through.

So it's never really had somebody sit and give it attention and say, and this isn't being creative or inventive. We're not trying to be novel and turn his spoken words, as much as are reflected in the sermons, into literary writing.

We're not doing any of that stuff. We are only going through and looking at what are blatant issues that we can say, having gone through so many of these sermons, we are all but 100 positive that this is an error here.

This isn't supposed to be here. Spurgeon was so good illustration and gave so many anecdotes that you get a lot of quotations in his sermons. And so a lot of typesetting issues with quotations. Spurgeon would be giving anecdotes where it's a quotation, but then the person in the anecdote is saying something.

So you've got the single and double quotes and they would get those messed up all the time and they wouldn't have the correct beginning and ending quotes. And so we just, when we were looking at that saying, hey, pastors and seminaries and seminary students need to be able to quote these things and it not look like a train wreck in some places.

And it's not bad all over, but I change dozens of things every sermon, I'll put it that way. And then you gotta remember in the originals, there's plenty of places where the ink didn't lay down. So you get to the end of a line and there's supposed to be a period and nothing shows up.

So I've had people ask, why don't you just go through and AI the whole thing and just get AI and it goes, because it can't read, it can't the way that the actual type setting worked back there. Back then you've got gaps and extra spaces all over, but then you've got ink that didn't lay down or letters that smudged.

And then on top of that, I correct spelling errors. Now, I'm not, this is British English from the Victorian era. And so I'm not saying I'm the expert, but when you go through there, you'll notice, I think the first volume that we did, that I really went through, which was 1855, I think that I kind of calculated that I had in that volume, I had to research something like six to 700 words to make sure that was an acceptable way for them to spell it back then.

And the issue that you get is because of course, we don't have this large swath of time to do editing, but in 1855, particularly, they were still spelling a lot of words the way that the Puritans spelled them when they were talking about theological things.

So there's a lot of words that you could tell that person, either whoever was type setting it or whoever shorthand documented the words as they were listening to Spurgeon, transcribed it, they, somebody was familiar with some of the Puritan writings on it because they would spell it that way.

And so I would have to go in and if you just go to Merriam-Webster, it's gonna say, that's not a correct spelling. But then you go back and you start looking at, oh, well, the Oxford Dictionary, and you'll see that it's an antiquated spelling or sometimes it wouldn't show up there.

And I would go in and do research on Google Books, right? And so you might go through and look through those PDFs and find just pages and pages of things where it did or didn't really apply. But then you'd get in, we got into some of the Puritan works and I see this word not spelled once that way, but spelled repetitively.

Then I go, okay, somebody was reading that and that's acceptable. I'm not updating those things, right? And so that's another, I won't get into that whole end of things, but for American printing, we have, American printing has never even, other than Pilgrim Publications, when they went and photolithographed Spurgeon sermons, outside of that, everything before, basically everything that was printed was Americanized and edited.

So have you seen those, and again, this isn't to talk bad about those things. Obviously it's great to have the material out no matter. So I'm not saying that. You ever seen the green reprint volumes of Spurgeon?

It's like five volumes. It's like 10 volumes in five books.

Yep, I'm looking at them right now.

Okay, so those originated from, so a company called Sheldon and Blakeman, and then Blakeman dropped out and it was Sheldon and Company. They were given the, I guess you'd say the rights to reproduce Spurgeon sermons.

And that was at the same time that they were coming out, right? So there was a little bit of delay. Passmore and Alabaster would come out with volumes in England. Sheldon and Blakeman would get them. And then it was kind of delayed.

And then they would come out with their first series, second series. And they went through 10 series of books, but they're not every sermon. So they selected sermons out, number one. And in those sermons, they Americanized all the spelling.

And then I've gone in, unfortunately, and found where they've removed material from sermons. There's one particular that I was trying to check a word on. I was trying to say, hmm, did they spell this right?

Did Passmore and Alabaster spell this right in the original or is that a mistake? Tried to look for some other references to where that sermon had been documented or printed to kind of see. Sometimes you can see, hey, let me check this person's judgment, that came after them and see whether they thought that was original or whether it was a mistake.

Sometimes you can glean from those things. Went into that sermon, and yes, Spurgeon had spoken about slavery. And they took out about a 250-word paragraph and zipped the whole thing because it said that.

Yeah, wow.

So if you go into the sermon, I'm just objectively saying right, wrong, or indifferent. I'm just telling you that's what happened. And so when you start looking at a lot of those things, so the green volume that you have, have you ever seen the Funkin' Wagnalls set that's like 20 of those brown volumes and it says like memorial volumes on the side?

I've seen it. I think they're at the, are those at the seminary at Grace Bible Theological Seminary?

I can't remember. I can't remember.

They might be. But what those are is those are Sheldon and Blakeman's, okay?

Okay.

And so it's 10 series of sermon volumes. And then it's 10 additional volumes like John Plowman and probably Storm Signals. I've got a list of them somewhere. So that's what that 20 volumes is. It was the American Sheldon and Blakeman's or Sheldon and Company.