August 4, 2025 Show with Douglas J. Kuiper on “The History of the Protestant Reformed Churches In America”
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August 4, 2025 DOUGLAS J. KUIPER,Professor of Church History &New Testament Studies @ Pro-testant Reformed Seminary inWyoming, MI, who will address: “The HISTORY of the PROTES-TANT REFORMED CHURCHESin AMERICA: REFLECTIONS asTHEY CELEBRATE THEIR 100thANNIVERSARY” Subscribe: Listen:
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- Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer
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- George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend
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- Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
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- Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
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- And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
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- Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
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- Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
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- This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. We're wishing you all a happy Monday on this fourth day of August 2025, and we have a returning guest on the program today.
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- This will be his third time on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
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- Professor Douglas J. Kuyper, who is on the faculty at Protestant Reform Seminary in Wyoming, Michigan, where he serves as professor of church history and New Testament studies, is going to address the history of the
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- Protestant Reform Churches in America reflections as they celebrate their 100th anniversary.
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- It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Professor Douglas J.
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- Kuyper. Thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be here today. Well, this is going to be a subject that is likely only going to be familiar to a tiny minority in our audience due to the fact that the
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- Protestant Reform Churches are not widespread here in the United States in every single state.
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- There are a select number of states where your congregations are represented. Perhaps you could even tell us about where our listeners can find a local
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- Protestant Reformed Church congregation. Good. And it's true, of course, that I hope to introduce the
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- PRCA. It is our centennial year, but there's a lot of history that your audience is not interested in, and I won't give mere historical tidbits.
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- I do hope after introducing the PRCA a bit, maybe to give more of a doctrinal history of the churches.
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- You are wondering, though, about where our churches are found. Well, primarily, at least a heavy concentration in West Michigan, and as much as we're part of the
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- Dutch Reformed family of churches. Then if you think of other places where the
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- Dutch Reformed have gone, you may well find a PRCA there. We have three of them in the
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- Illinois -Indiana area, southeast of Chicago. We have one in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
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- Yes, I've had the privilege of having dinner with the pastor there during a trip to Pittsburgh.
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- Good. Reverend Mattani, currently. Reverend Breinsma, formerly. We have five churches in a radius in southwest
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- Minnesota, northwest Iowa, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota. The church in Loveland, Colorado, an hour north of Denver.
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- Rutlands, California, an hour from L .A. Linden, Washington, and two of them in Alberta, and we've got one in Ontario as well.
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- So we're scattered throughout North America, and especially in the
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- U .S. Yeah, and by the way, if anybody wants to look up after this live show is over, of course, the two previous interviews that I've had with Professor Douglas Kuyper, I go to irontrepanzyneradio .com,
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- and in the search engine type K -U -I -P as in Peter, E -R, and you will see
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- Douglas Kuyper come up twice. We had a fascinating conversation on April 3rd of 2019 on the
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- Doctrine of the Covenant and the Canons of Dort. He was also followed by David J.
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- Engelsma in that same program who was on the second hour talking about the
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- Great War, what led to the Synod of Dort. And then on May 10th, 2019,
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- Douglas Kuyper was on the program to speak on the history of the Synod of Dort.
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- So you will have a lot of listening edification to look forward to after this program is over with Douglas Kuyper.
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- Well, since this is the centennial year of your denomination, let's hear about what gave birth to this denomination in 1925.
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- I understand it was a split over theological differences, either with the
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- Christian Reformed Church or with the Dutch Reformed Church, and I can't remember which. Well, both in a certain sense, specifically the
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- Christian Reformed Church, but I'll spell that out a bit. In 1924, the
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- Christian Reformed Church in North America adopted a doctrinal position on common grace.
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- And briefly, there were three heads or points to that position. One was that God shows a general favor or grace to every man, all men, as is evident from the fact that the gospel is preached not only to his people, not only in one specific place, but the gospel is to be preached promiscuously to everyone, everywhere, as much as possible.
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- The second point was that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of the non -elect and non -regenerated, so in the hearts of the unbeliever, restraining them from sin.
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- A little later, I'll maybe say where the PRC differs. Right now, I'm just giving the
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- CRC position. And the third point was that the unregenerate man can do civil good, that is, do kind things and good for society and for other humans, and that God calls that also good.
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- Now, that was the Christian Reformed Church. You said you weren't sure, was it the CRC or the
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- Dutch Reformed generally? The CRC did not come up with these ideas out of the blue.
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- And the first of those three points of common grace really traces itself back to the
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- Dutch Reformed churches in the Netherlands in the 1800s. And the second and third points trace themselves back to Abraham Kuyper in the
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- Netherlands in the late 1800s. Without spelling out that history all in detail, there are three men in the
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- Christian Reformed Church, three ministers, that is, and their consistories, who did not agree with the three points of common grace.
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- Actually, if you read the 1924 Christian Reformed Acts of Synod, there are certainly more than three men.
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- There were, I think, seven delegates who protested immediately, some of them more procedural, others of them more doctrinal.
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- But after the synod was over, three men and their consistories refused, let me back up, and made known that they would continue to speak against the doctrine and demonstrate that it was not biblical or confessional.
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- And therefore, at regional classes meetings, you have the broader synod, the denomination wide synod, you have geographic regions called classes.
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- At two of the regional classes meetings, both of them in the West Michigan area, three men and their consistories were deposed in January of 1925, and those three consistories met together, and therein we find the beginning of the
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- Protestant Reformed Churches of America. Now, as far as the differences you had with what has been commonly called the common grace of God, there are things, obviously, involved in that that every
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- Bible -believing Christian would agree with. God's rain falls upon the just and the unjust alike.
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- Obviously, that's a biblical concept. So, where is it that your denomination was specifically disagreeing with that notion of common grace?
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- If I'm not mistaken, I think some of it has to do with the very label or phrase or nickname, however you want to call it, where the
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- Protestant Reformed Churches in America seem to only desire to use the word grace when it's connected with something salvific.
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- But if you could explain better than I can. Well, you're in the direction, though.
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- Our doctrine has to be based on exegesis of Scripture, based on teachings of Scripture.
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- And when we observe the use of the word grace in the Bible, it's an undeserved favor of God, but it's not just a kindness.
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- It's a favor that's, as you said, salvific. It's saving. It's a favor of God by which he takes the unworthy, undeserving sinner and restores him to fellowship with God and gives him saving blessings.
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- There happens to be another concept in the Bible, another term, and every
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- Reformed confession states and develops this term. It's called providence.
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- There's no question that God gives rain and sunshine to the godly and the ungodly alike.
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- We do not call that grace. You may call it God's goodness. I won't dispute goodness, but it's not saving grace.
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- In fact, there's nothing inherent in rain or God's people that is grace.
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- They are good earthly and material gifts. So the key distinction is between providence and grace.
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- And in essence, what Christian Reformed Church did, and that Kuyper probably did or was going in the direction of doing, is conflating providence with grace.
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- To develop it just one step further, consider that if rain and sunshine is grace to all, you now need to ask, well, at what point does grace become curse to all?
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- Because sunshine is an inherent characteristic of drought.
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- Rain is an inherent characteristic of flood, and nobody looks at the flood in Texas.
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- I shouldn't say nobody. I mean, our natural response is not to look at the floods in Texas and say, that's grace.
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- So if you're going to call them grace, you have to reckon with the fact that God uses them sometimes both to bring about earthly death, and then secondly, that sometimes
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- God gives a man so much plenty, in Proverbs, Agur, pray that he not do this.
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- God gives a man so much plenty that the man denies there's a God. I'm just pointing out that grace is not inherent in an earthly gift.
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- It is, however, a motivating factor.
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- That's not the best way to say it. It is the will of God to give his people salvation and all the gifts of salvation.
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- That's grace. It is particular for God's people only. So, then correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems though it's the
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- Protestant Reformed Church objection to the word grace and how it is used because Reformed Christians and all
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- Christians outside of that group don't particularly isolate the word grace only for salvific matters.
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- They will just say, well, grace means unmerited favor, and that would include the justification of sinners and so on.
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- That would even include the regeneration of sinners. Grace?
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- Go ahead. You're right. Go ahead. But they would say unmerited favor.
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- Every single blessing that humans have and receive and enjoy, even our heartbeats and the breath that goes in and out of our lungs, is not deserved.
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- It is unmerited that we are given these wonderful things, and both the elect and the reprobate obviously have these things because both are living on this earth.
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- So, is it really just the word that you think is being misused? Well, no.
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- I think there's a wrong understanding of what grace is. But you're correct that even rain, sunshine, and earthly gifts no human deserves on account of being sinners.
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- The question though is, this is where I think the word is being misused, is the giving of an earthly gift a component of my salvation?
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- You pointed out that salvation consists of justification, sanctification, regeneration, etc.
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- Is there something about food and drink and rain and sunshine that are part and parcel of salvation?
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- I will say no to that. And that's where I think although grace is unmerited, it's more than that.
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- It is the power, the favor and the power of God by which he delivers his people who are sinners from the power of sin and makes them his.
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- So, what would be the area over which the Protestant Reformed churches in America separated from the
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- Christian Reformed church that have led to the charge? And by the way, just to let you know,
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- I believe it is an unwarranted charge. I don't agree with the charge, but it has conjured up the charge of hyper -Calvinism against the
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- Protestant Reformed churches in America. I was very encouraged to know that the late
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- Dr. John Gerstner, who was one of my heroes of the faith, who was not in a formal sense, in any kind of an official sense, a member of the
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- Protestant Reformed churches in America, and yet he had a high regard for your denomination, and in particular,
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- Professor David J. Engelsma. And I believe he even wrote the foreword to Professor Engelsma's book on hyper -Calvinism.
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- But if you could address what I was just speaking about. Good. It's a bit of a shift from common grace, except that in this regard, the first point of common grace, that God shows a general favor to all, was supported or evidenced by the assertion that in the preaching of the gospel that goes to all, there is a favor of God, a genuine desire that everyone who hears will believe and be saved.
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- So the PRC rejects that specifically. Do we reject?
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- Well, let me begin positively. We have a very high view of the preaching of the gospel as the work and the means by which
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- God's Spirit works faith, strengthens faith, and godliness in His people, brings to saving faith those who aren't.
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- We have a high view of the preaching. Secondly, we have a high view of the work of missions and the understanding that the gospel must go to all men, head for head, as our
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- Canons of Dort says, promiscuously. I know the charge of hyper -Calvinism is a charge that we can really only preach the gospel to the elect.
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- And that charge comes on the part of some because of our saying that the preaching of the gospel is not, in fact, grace to all who hear.
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- I don't think the charge is warranted that way. The fact is, no man can figure out who's elect and who isn't.
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- If it's a matter of preaching the gospel to the elect, I better stop preaching, period, because I don't know who you are.
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- So, there is a charge of hyper -Calvinism,
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- I think, unwarranted. Furthermore, if you would study hyper -Calvinism in its
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- Scottish -British origins, I don't think the PRC's view accords with what hyper -Calvinism has historically been.
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- I'm not sure if I'm answering your question well enough, so follow up at this point. Well, you are, and I just wanted to clarify for our listeners, because it's a very important aspect of what you are describing, you do believe as a denomination in the promiscuous evangelism of the lost, meaning that you are not reserving evangelism for those who already show fruits of repentance and some kind of godly demeanor or curiosity.
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- You believe that we should preach the gospel to every single human being, which would include not only the most pious of preachers, but the most perverse of prostitutes, the serial killers on death row, etc.
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- All humans must be evangelized, am I right? Absolutely. Therein is the only hope of their coming to see how heinous their sin is and coming to put their trust and faith in Christ.
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- So, can you—and I know that that comes as a surprise to people that I've had private conversations with who are convinced that the
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- Protestant Reformed churches are hyper -Calvinists, and they assume that you do not believe in the promiscuous evangelism of all men.
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- Well, one thing I was going to do if I had a moment, and I could do this piecemeal, to introduce a little more about the
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- PRC, I can run down that we've done missions. Where have we done missions?
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- We have done missions in a number of places in the United States, some of which did bear the fruit of organizing a
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- PR church and some of which did not. We've also done missions in Jamaica, Northern Ireland, Singapore, the
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- Philippines, Ghana. Now, by referring to some of those foreign countries, a point
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- I'm making is that we have brought the gospel where God at any given moment of time led us to bring it, and we had the opportunity and the means to bring it.
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- But when you go to a place like that, you don't—as part of inherent mission work, you don't assume all are saved, all are believers.
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- We can apply the same point, though, to the preacher's view of his congregation.
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- We view the congregation as the Church of Jesus Christ, as a group of believers.
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- But we do not assume that every member of that congregation is elect and regenerated and a genuine believer.
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- So even in the preaching itself, there has to be a call to the unconverted to turn from sin.
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- This demonstrates very concretely that our actions are not hyper -Calvinistic.
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- Amen. Well, we are going to our very first commercial break, and if you would like to join the conversation with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
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- We are now back with Professor Douglas J.
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- Kuiper, and we are discussing something that is probably a new topic for a lot of our listeners, and that is the history of the
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- Protestant Reformed churches in America. They are celebrating their 100th anniversary this year, and I think that Professor Douglas J.
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- Kuiper is just the right man to handle our conversation today. He's a professor of church history and New Testament studies at Protestant Reformed Seminary in Wyoming, Michigan.
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- Once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
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- Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Before I go to any listener questions, I want to make sure that you already have stated some of the primary things that have not only set the
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- Protestant Reformed churches in America apart as a unique group, but also the things that tie them together with all heirs of the
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- Reformation. Good. Well, number one is our confessions.
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- Number two, let me spell them out and then I can elaborate. Number one is our confessions. Number two is our liturgy.
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- And number three is our church government. So we subscribe to the three forms of unity, the
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- Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession, Canons of Dort. Implicit in that is a subscription to all of the ecumenical
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- Christian creeds. We are, I would say, a strict subscriptionist church when it comes to our creeds.
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- Our people, when making confession of faith, express agreement with what's taught in the creeds, and our office bearers, when being installed into office, have to express agreement.
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- It's not an insofar as they agree with the Word of God, so there's wiggle room, but it's a because the creeds agree with the
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- Word of God. And if someone's convinced the creeds have an error, there's a procedure to follow, which is also reformed, how to address that.
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- So we agree doctrinally. Number two, our church order is the
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- Church Order of Dort, 1618 -1619, with amendations that indicate that we're living now in the
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- United States of America in the 21st century, but it is substantially the same as the
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- Church Order of Dort. And the third are liturgical forms, and therefore our worship are those that the
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- Reformed churches have used from the 1560s in the Netherlands on. So we do stand in the
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- Dutch Reformed tradition, and it's not just our history, it's our heritage.
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- And just so our audience may realize this, they might not otherwise, sadly, two churches that have had a great heritage, closely associated with all things connected with the
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- Dutch Reformation, the Dutch Reformed Church, which is more commonly, at least in the
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- United States, known as the Reformed Church in America, RCA, and the
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- Christian Reformed Church, the CRC, they have become very liberal today.
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- The Christian Reformed Church is far more liberal than the days 100 years ago when the
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- Protestant Reformed Church departed from them, and you have to be very careful when you are looking for a church.
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- You might think that the Reformed word in the church sign is a green light to join such a congregation, but you have to do some investigation, and the
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- RCA church is, I believe, even worse than the CRC. There are hardly any theologically sound
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- RCA churches left. I know that there are some remnants of men who still believe in biblical inerrancy and so on, and who reject the false teachings of Norman Vincent Peale and Robert Schuller, who are both in that denomination, but is there anything else you care to say about those groups that have some kind of connection historically with the
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- Protestant Reformed Churches in America? There is. First of all, what you expressed about the
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- RCA and the CRC as denominations, I would agree with. I do know in both of the denominations of godly
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- Reformed people who are very troubled and what's happening in the denomination at large, and I want to bear that in mind.
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- I care about these people. Yeah, Joel Nieder had remained in the
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- CRC. I'm not even sure Joel is still with us, if he is in heaven with Christ yet, but he stuck it out there in the
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- CRC, and he is, in my opinion, a fine man of God. And I could name many others, men even in the ministry with whom
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- I served. I sympathize with them and even agree with them on some of the issues they have to face within their denomination, but they are intending to be faithful.
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- Now, to add now, a number of churches have left, especially the
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- RCA, for more conservative denominations, which is a testimony that there's a remnant, has been a remnant in the
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- RCA, but it leaves the denomination as a whole all the more liberal. The other thing
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- I'll say about the Christian Reformed Church would be that the
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- PRC, not bloatingly, observes the history of the
- 37:50
- CRC and says, this is the outworking of your 1924 decision on common grace.
- 38:00
- Already in the 1920s, after 1924, the CRC had to emphasize that though it holds to a common grace, it did not mean to undermine or destroy or ignore the antithesis.
- 38:17
- The antithesis, it isn't a man -made reality. It is the reality that God, having saved a certain people in Jesus Christ, calls us to be spiritually different from others around us, and it has applications to how we live.
- 38:37
- The CRC had to emphasize that though it adopted a stand on common grace favorable, there are things almost inherently good in the ungodly unbeliever that did not destroy the antithesis.
- 38:54
- Now, why did it have to feel that need? Because, in fact, it really was touching.
- 39:00
- Common grace undermines the antithesis. And the point I'm making is that if I look at the
- 39:05
- CRC as a denomination today, in its theological trends, even its moral trends, fortunately and with thanks to God, Synod of Late is taking a tougher stand on the matter of homosexuality.
- 39:24
- That's a good sign. But if you look at these trends, the PRC sees that as the outworking of common grace.
- 39:32
- If God gives grace to all, a general grace, and secondly, to factor in the
- 39:43
- Kuyperian angle a bit more, if God works not so much in his church as in his kingdom, and the church is just sort of a vehicle to help him build up his kingdom, then you're going to lose your doctrinal distinctives, and you're going to find that churches are more and more being like the world.
- 40:06
- Now, maybe that needs spelling out. To a degree, I'm not able to do it now. You asked, though, for a brief assessment, and that's it in a nutshell.
- 40:15
- Okay. Before I go to any listener questions, is there anything else you care to say about things that make your denomination stand out, and also things that make your denomination harmonious with the
- 40:32
- Reformed church of the ages? Good. So far, we've noted the origins and the common grace controversy.
- 40:41
- I want to point out a couple of other doctrines that are embedded in the confessions that we believe we've developed.
- 40:50
- And by the way, development doesn't happen when a person sits down and says, boy, we're
- 40:55
- Reformed. We should see what we can say better or more. Development happens when there's controversy.
- 41:01
- So to say we developed is to acknowledge that God has given us controversy. So another doctrine will be the doctrine of God's covenant.
- 41:10
- Now, that's a precious heritage of Reformed believers. There's no specific article in the
- 41:18
- Three Forms of Unity devoted to the covenant, but the idea of the doctrine of God's covenant undergirds and is woven throughout.
- 41:26
- And we have developed, we believe, the doctrine of God's covenant consistent with our rejection of common grace.
- 41:37
- God's covenant is a covenant of particular grace. That is, it's his friendship with his people in Jesus Christ.
- 41:46
- And in the 1950s, we had to discipline some ministers who were teaching that in that covenant,
- 41:56
- God calls people to believe, and it's inherent in the one who hears.
- 42:02
- The power is inherent in the one who hears to believe. So that would be another point.
- 42:10
- There are some other distinctives, but I think I've hit the two main doctrinal areas in which we would have more to say or different things to say than other
- 42:24
- Dutch Reformed churches. Okay, we have a question from Salvatore in Rockville Center, Long Island, New York.
- 42:34
- Salvatore says, isn't there something about the well -meant offer of the gospel that the
- 42:42
- Protestant Reformed churches typically take exception to? And the answer is yes.
- 42:52
- Number one, were you saying more? I was just going to have you explain the well -meant offer so our listeners know it.
- 43:01
- Very good. I'll start with that. Very good. The doctrine of the well -meant offer teaches that the gospel is to be proclaimed, which is not something the
- 43:11
- PRC takes issue with, is to be proclaimed as widely as possible, which is not something that the
- 43:19
- PRC takes issue with. And then the doctrine of the well -meant offer, it might be not everybody who says, well,
- 43:30
- I believe in a well -meant offer will agree with what I say next, but it could be demonstrated that many who teach the well -meant offer mean what
- 43:41
- I say next, that in the preaching of the gospel promiscuously,
- 43:46
- God says to everybody who hears, when the preacher promises salvation,
- 43:53
- I really mean it. This could be for you. All right. That is where the
- 43:59
- PRC will take exception. It isn't that we preach only to the elect and not the reprobate, but did not the prophets always have to say two things, a promise of salvation to those who believe in Christ and also a promise of condemnation to those who refuse.
- 44:21
- So as we preach the gospel, we have to bring both elements. The well -meant offer does not do justice to the second.
- 44:29
- Hmm. That's interesting. I am a
- 44:35
- Reformed Baptist, and we believe it's imperative to always give the bad news in addition to the good news, because the good news isn't that good or great or amazing without the bad news.
- 44:50
- That is right. Although many among us in the Reformed Baptist circles may use the term well -meant offer, but the way that you've differentiated the right and wrong proclamation of the gospel is something that I think most
- 45:10
- Reformed Baptists would agree with. By the way, Salvatore, you have just won an amazing book.
- 45:19
- It's over 670 pages, a massive hardback that you could actually build up your biceps by curling a copy of this book in each arm, in each hand.
- 45:35
- The Commentary of Dr. Zacharias Ercinas on the
- 45:43
- Heidelberg Catechism. And this is compliments of our friends at Reform Free Publishing Association.
- 45:52
- And is there anything that you care to say about this massive volume by the 16th century giant of the faith,
- 46:03
- Zacharias Ercinas? That's a classic book that should be on any
- 46:13
- Reformed pastor's shelf. And it's not so theologically deep that it should be limited to pastors.
- 46:25
- When the Reformed reader says, I'm going to study the Heidelberg Catechism, and I wonder what it means.
- 46:32
- I wonder what this means, what that means. He can go to one of the authors of the Catechism himself.
- 46:38
- The primary author, correct? Indeed. Now, from the viewpoint of historical scholarship, there are some who argue that Ercinas did not write the
- 46:48
- Commentary. But I'm going to avoid and not get into that right now, because I think that there's good evidence to say he did.
- 47:01
- So that, number one. In addition, in the Commentary, Ercinas will make,
- 47:09
- I don't want to call them digressions, but he treats the doctrines, not just the words and phrases.
- 47:17
- So you're going to have a section in which he elaborates more on the image of God and man.
- 47:23
- When he elaborates on the Covenant, I said there's no chapter or section in any of the three forms of unity where there's a doctrine of the
- 47:32
- Covenant. Ercinas has a section on the Covenant. So a valuable resource, full of Scripture references.
- 47:42
- The author is demonstrating that the
- 47:48
- Reformed Confession is biblical. A good resource and not difficult to read.
- 47:53
- Great. I'm going to read briefly a commendation for this by someone who has been a guest on this program,
- 48:03
- Dr. Daniel R. Hyde, pastor of Oceanside United Reformed Church in Oceanside, California.
- 48:14
- The lectures of Ercinas are compiled and edited by his student,
- 48:21
- David Parias, are invaluable for understanding the Heidelberg Catechism.
- 48:26
- This is especially true for preachers tasked with proclaiming its teaching.
- 48:31
- Yet preachers, and even those in the pew, may be turned off by its scholastic structure.
- 48:39
- Far from making the catechism more difficult, it was in the Christian use of Aristotle that Ercinas and others taught to analyze, break down, and simplify the teaching of the word for pastors who are tasked with preaching to people.
- 48:58
- In other words, sophistication in the study leads to simplicity in the pulpit.
- 49:06
- Pastors, immerse yourself in the best of our tradition's pedagogy and watch your preaching improve and your people's minds and hearts be inflamed.
- 49:18
- That's a really powerful commendation by Danny Hyde. I look forward to having him back on the program.
- 49:25
- It's been a long time. Well, we have time before the midway break to read one more question, and then we will take some more after the midway break.
- 49:41
- We have Joseph in Gainesville, Georgia.
- 49:48
- And Joseph says, There is a common belief outside of the
- 49:54
- Protestant Reformed Church that your denomination believes that they are the only true
- 49:59
- Christians. Is this true, and are any of the pastors within your denomination guilty of this?
- 50:10
- I am convinced it is not true, that there are no pastors guilty of that.
- 50:18
- Now, let me explain some things that might be true that would give people that impression.
- 50:26
- Number one, we do not believe we're the only true church.
- 50:32
- We do not believe we're the only ones saved. We do believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is much smaller even.
- 50:39
- I mean the true church, the true body, much smaller than it appears outwardly. So, whereas the liberal modernist looks at every church and says,
- 50:47
- Oh, wow, look at how big God's church is. We say no, no, the faithful church is much smaller.
- 50:55
- And the second place, the PRC emphasizes precision of doctrine.
- 51:03
- And emphasizing precision of doctrine, it is, and we teach our students in the seminary, to show the people to whom they're preaching where these doctrines are compromised and that which opposes these doctrines is wrong.
- 51:22
- We call that polemics. We're going to not just set forth what's true, but we're going to show what's not true because what's true is true.
- 51:31
- I think that some people, as they hear us do those things, conclude that we think only we have it right and therefore we're the only true church.
- 51:42
- Might a PR person somewhere have once said that? Yeah, they might have once over the course of a hundred years.
- 51:51
- But do we think that? No. It's a denial of our confession that the
- 51:57
- Church of Jesus Christ is in every nation, tribe, and tongue. Amen.
- 52:02
- Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. And if you would like to get in line and have your own question asked and answered by our guest,
- 52:11
- Douglas J. Kuyper, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
- 52:17
- chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old
- 52:32
- USA. And you may ask a question anonymously only if your question involves a very personal and private matter.
- 52:44
- Let's say you have a theological difficulty with something that's being taught in your own church. We would not want you to publicly give the name of your pastor and the name of your church, and therefore that would be a reason, among others, that you could remain anonymous.
- 53:00
- But if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
- 53:06
- Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. This program is sponsored by Hope PR Ministry.
- 53:14
- Hope PR Ministry is a podcast produced by Hope Protestant Reformed Church in Walker, Michigan.
- 53:21
- We are dedicated to sharing Reformed biblical content every Wednesday and Friday. Tune in for sermons, lectures, and interviews exploring distinctive
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- Hope PR Ministry also offers Morning Meditations, a daily podcast featuring
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- Reformed devotionals designed to nourish your soul. Start your day with these spiritually enriching messages by tuning in to Morning Meditations, wherever you get your podcasts.
- 54:02
- Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the
- 54:11
- Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the
- 54:23
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- 56:33
- Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the
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- 56:49
- It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.
- 57:01
- Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.
- 57:12
- For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to WestminsterCommentary .com WestminsterCommentary .com
- 57:20
- For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com
- 57:29
- HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr.
- 57:37
- Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian theological seminary sent you. This is
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- 58:23
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- 58:30
- If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some
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- 58:53
- Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
- 59:01
- This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our
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- Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ, today and always.
- 59:24
- I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
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- I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
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- Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
- 59:43
- It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
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- I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.
- 01:00:16
- For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
- 01:00:23
- That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.
- 01:00:32
- That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
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- When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the
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- And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.
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- 01:09:05
- Kuiper, Professor of Church History and New Testament Studies at Protestant Reformed Seminary in Wyoming, Michigan, on the history of the
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- and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Douglas J.
- 01:11:56
- Kuyper regarding the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, reflections as they celebrate their 100th anniversary.
- 01:12:08
- And the next question that we have is
- 01:12:15
- Tony in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. And Tony says,
- 01:12:23
- One of the things that troubles me most about the Protestant Reformed Churches is the very rigid stance that you seem to have universally in your denomination against divorce and remarriage.
- 01:12:39
- I think there are many instances where one of the spouses in a marriage is clearly the guilty party who might be involved in unrepentant serial adultery and a whole host of other crimes against the covenant of marriage that you can even conjure up in your mind, and one of them is also abandonment.
- 01:13:05
- I was wondering, is there any differences of opinion amongst the pastors in your denomination over divorce and remarriage?
- 01:13:16
- Difference in any pastor or denomination on the question? Well, let me, for the sake of the audience, spell out the position.
- 01:13:26
- We don't dispute what the questioner alluded to, that there are some marriages that are very broken by sin, and divorce is permitted.
- 01:13:40
- At bottom, to be clear, the PRC faces its position on its understanding of Scripture.
- 01:13:47
- The Lord permits divorce in case of adultery. So do we.
- 01:13:55
- The unique view, or what makes the view of the
- 01:14:01
- PRC unique, we're not alone, but it does set us apart from many, is that we believe that even though there's a legal divorce, that was not the
- 01:14:15
- Lord ending the marriage bond that he created. It is freeing the two from living together and living within a marriage intimately, but it doesn't release them from the bond because the
- 01:14:34
- Bible teaches that the bond is broken at death. I would refer to Romans 7, 1 -4, 1
- 01:14:42
- Corinthians 7, verse 39, and such. And so our position is that no divorced person may get remarried while their ex -spouse still lives.
- 01:14:57
- Is that an easy thing to put on people?
- 01:15:03
- No. We're humans, we understand that, but we believe it's the
- 01:15:08
- Word of God. We believe it's consistent with the Word of God. And our Lord Himself says that those who remarry while their spouse is alive are guilty of adultery.
- 01:15:22
- So, although this hour isn't the hour to do it at length,
- 01:15:29
- I'd be willing, with the questionnaire, to work through the biblical and exegetical reason for our position, because if we're right, then
- 01:15:37
- His issue is not, first of all, with us. Do we understand, though, that that position leaves some people in a hard spot in that they desire to be married, that God even created humans with a desire for marital companionship?
- 01:15:58
- Yes, we understand that. The Lord and obedience to the
- 01:16:04
- Lord's commandments do not always make our life easy. Yes, and as far as I know, the only group other than the
- 01:16:19
- Protestant Reformed Churches in America where that view is prevalent are the independent fundamentalist
- 01:16:28
- Baptists who very often take that position, and the Roman Catholic Church, which in this modern era, you can get an annulment for a marriage for almost any reason, just as if you have the money to do so.
- 01:16:44
- So, I mean, it's almost a moot point in the Roman Catholic Church.
- 01:16:51
- But, of course, that's an apostate church anyway. That would probably be, of course, as a
- 01:17:01
- Reformed Baptist, other than the view of paedo -baptism and church government issues.
- 01:17:10
- That would be my main issue of disagreement with the Protestant Reformed Churches, is that issue.
- 01:17:19
- But I'm always willing to hear more thorough explanations at some point, but this is obviously, as you just said, we don't have time to just narrow our conversation to that one issue.
- 01:17:32
- Let's see here. We have David in Phoenix, Arizona.
- 01:17:43
- And David says, Can you mention any theologian with whom you have great harmony outside of the
- 01:17:56
- Protestant Reformed Churches that is still living and with whom you have fellowship?
- 01:18:08
- Oh, that's a good question. And I guess if I say no, then that implies, it gives an implication
- 01:18:14
- I don't want to give. Does the questioner mean me personally? Does he mean the denomination?
- 01:18:19
- Oh, I don't know. You might not have the answer to that. The listener would have to rewrite the question and clarify that. ERC ministers and seminary professors work hard to be aware of theologians.
- 01:18:35
- But if they're talking about close companionship, fellowship, then it would be probably more with men in the
- 01:18:45
- Grand Rapids area who we run into and who are in the same field. So I'm not ready to name names.
- 01:18:52
- Yeah, I have noticed that the Free, the Reformed Free Publishing Association, who has been kind and generous enough to provide these books that we've been giving away.
- 01:19:05
- They have far more included the commendations of men from denominations other than your own in their publications.
- 01:19:19
- Well, I was pleased by that to show the effort that the
- 01:19:25
- Body of Christ is a much bigger group than the Protestant Reformed Churches in America. Not only commendations, but they are now ready to publish works by men who had still subscribed to Earth Reforms of Unity who are not
- 01:19:41
- Protestant Reformed. And they already have published such works. By the way, David, you have also won a free copy of the commentary of Dr.
- 01:19:54
- Zacharias Ersinus on the Heidelberg Catechism. Please make sure that you give us your full mailing address so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
- 01:20:07
- can ship that book out to you. And we also want to thank our friends at the
- 01:20:15
- Reformed Free Publishing Association for providing us with the books. If you want to look up more information about this and other books that they carry, go to rfpa .org.
- 01:20:30
- That's rfpa, standing for Reformed Free Publishing Association, dot o -r -g.
- 01:20:37
- And thank you, David, for the question. I want to make sure, before I go to any more listener questions, that you continue to give us some of the primary reasons why you believe the
- 01:20:55
- Protestant Reformed Churches in America should have a place in church history in the
- 01:21:05
- United States and Canada and anywhere else where you may be located that deserves high esteem and recognition and serious prayerful consideration when people are looking for churches to join.
- 01:21:22
- Apart from the Reformed faith that we believe we consistently and unashamedly present,
- 01:21:35
- I want to point out something which I think makes us unique. Not completely unique as if it's only in the
- 01:21:42
- PRC, but I want to bring up the style of preaching. Not so much the content.
- 01:21:47
- You could go to many churches, the Reformed, even some Reformed Baptist, and get a gospel sermon.
- 01:21:54
- I don't dispute that in the least. But I think expository preaching has fallen on hard times.
- 01:22:05
- So to say it's only in the PRC you'll find it, no, I'm not going to say that. But we do train our men to be expositors.
- 01:22:15
- You won't find a topical sermon quickly, although in a sense our explanation of the
- 01:22:22
- Hatterberg Catechism at one of the sermons on the Lord's Day could be called that. But you're also not going to find a minister taking a rather long passage of Scripture and finding, oh, three or four thoughts in it that he wants to make relevant to your life.
- 01:22:38
- We're going to take the Word and open it up. Now I find that that helps the soul grow.
- 01:22:46
- So let that be one reason. Number two, then
- 01:22:52
- I'm going to come back to the fact that we are faithful to the confessions, not loose with them.
- 01:23:00
- That means if a person does not like what's in the Reformed Confessions, we are the answer for them.
- 01:23:06
- So those are a couple of reasons. Okay, we have
- 01:23:13
- Nick in Selinsgrove, Pennsylvania, and Nick says,
- 01:23:22
- I recall hearing an interview that Chris Arnzen had a number of years ago with a pastor in your denomination,
- 01:23:32
- Angus Stewart, and he was teaching that the
- 01:23:38
- Imago Dei is reserved only for those who are of the elect.
- 01:23:44
- In other words, only those of the elect bear the image of God. And I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that your denomination is the only denomination that teaches this.
- 01:23:57
- And Angus Stewart taught that this has not only biblical, but confessional support.
- 01:24:02
- Is this a universal view of the Protestant Reformed churches in America? I'm going to answer yes, except I would phrase it differently, either than Angus did or than the listener understood it to.
- 01:24:23
- I don't think to say it's reserved for the elect is the right way to put it or the best way, because what we teach is that every man lost the image.
- 01:24:34
- When Adam fell into sin, he lost the image of God. He took on in its place the image of Satan.
- 01:24:44
- So it isn't like the elect still have the image, but it's more correct to say that part of the saving work of Jesus Christ is to restore the image to his people.
- 01:24:58
- And I think if that wasn't understood by the listener, that's an important thing to say.
- 01:25:04
- So many of the Reformed churches would say that image became marred, it became corrupted, but man retains the image in part.
- 01:25:18
- Fallen man retains the image in part, and the work of God in salvation restores the image again in full.
- 01:25:25
- And our position is it's lost completely. And there is exegetical basis for that.
- 01:25:34
- The passages in Ephesians 4 and Colossians 3 that speak of our being renewed in the image don't say, well, we understand renewed to be made new again, as in it's restored us.
- 01:25:51
- What I want to do actually though is come to two passages that somebody might use to say, see, fallen man retains part of the image.
- 01:26:01
- The two passages would be Genesis 9 verse 6.
- 01:26:08
- If you want to quickly look to see if I transpose that. And the other will be
- 01:26:15
- James 3. Genesis, yes, 9 verse 6.
- 01:26:29
- No, that is not it. While you're looking, I'm going to repeat our email address. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
- 01:26:37
- ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. I'm sorry, go ahead.
- 01:26:43
- Good. Yes, Genesis 9 verse 6. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made he man.
- 01:26:52
- And a passage in James where he says, You bless.
- 01:27:00
- This is the chapter regarding the tongue. On the one hand, you bless, and on the other hand, you curse.
- 01:27:06
- And it does not make sense. It's not possible that from the same fountain would come sweet water and bitter.
- 01:27:13
- But in verse 9, therewith bless we God, even the Father, and therewith curse we men which are made after the similitude of God.
- 01:27:21
- Now, I'm not going to get exegetical here at length to explain why, but we're going to refer those passages either to God's original creation of man in his image, which is indisputable, or to God's restoring of the image in regenerated men.
- 01:27:45
- When the question is asked, are there other churches that teach this, I'm at a loss.
- 01:27:50
- It's not because I don't read what other churches teach, but I rather suspect that we probably are talking about what other preachers preach and theologians teach.
- 01:28:07
- And even in the PRC, this would not become a, let me not give the wrong impression, it is a not officially stated position of the
- 01:28:22
- PRC, but it certainly is taught in the PRC and advocated. I hope you get the distinction
- 01:28:29
- I'm making. And for that reason, I don't know. I think it's a matter of what does another preacher preach and another theologian teach more than what is there another church that officially holds that position.
- 01:28:44
- And one of the things that encouraged me also about your denomination is that your denomination did not have a very high view of some of the teachings of Abraham Kuyper.
- 01:29:09
- I believe you've already illustrated most, if not all of those.
- 01:29:16
- But at the same time, your denomination's publishing house, the Reform Free Publishing Association, recently brought back into print a book by Kuyper.
- 01:29:26
- Am I right about that? You are. You know, when it comes to any theologian, when the man's right, let's acknowledge he's right.
- 01:29:36
- When he's wrong, let's point out he's wrong. Abraham Kuyper, by the grace of God, came to understand sovereign particular grace.
- 01:29:46
- And he wrote a book about sovereign particular grace. And the RFP has republished that.
- 01:29:52
- It may have republished some of his meditations as well. But I think his book on sovereign grace, particular grace, is the issue.
- 01:30:00
- Now, when a man writes a book on sovereign particular grace and then a book on common grace, a
- 01:30:08
- PRC person, with his understanding of the doctrine of grace and the attribute of God called grace, says he's right on the one area and he's wrong on the other.
- 01:30:20
- So we don't throw a man out if he's right and if he's in heaven with us but he taught something wrong.
- 01:30:27
- And we believe we can demonstrate that from Scripture. We do that. Now, I don't think the
- 01:30:32
- PRC is alone in that respect. One of the things that I also fondly remember, and I hope
- 01:30:40
- I'm remembering him accurately, one of my many interviews with David Engelsma, what stood out in my mind is something that I wholeheartedly agree with him over as a
- 01:30:56
- Reformed Baptist. It is that we are to treat our children as a mission field and not view them as of the elect until they prove otherwise by scandalous unrepentance and apostasy.
- 01:31:23
- But we're to view them as not saved until they prove otherwise that they repent and believe upon Christ.
- 01:31:32
- That seems to be a view not readily held by most of the
- 01:31:42
- Presbyterian and other Paedo -Baptist denominations. One exception would be
- 01:31:49
- Dr. Joel Beakey of the Heritage Reformed Churches or the
- 01:31:55
- Heritage Reformed Congregations. He won the hearts of a lot of Baptists because he views children as a mission field.
- 01:32:05
- Am I correct in my memory of Brother Engelsma on that? Brother Engelsma would stand very opposed to that position.
- 01:32:16
- Of which? That we would view children as a mission field.
- 01:32:22
- Oh, he would be opposed to it? I believe that. I'll refer you to a book, first of all, by Herman Hoeksema called
- 01:32:32
- Believers and Their Seed. But then Engelsma wrote a book—let's see if I can find it on my shelf a minute—the
- 01:32:42
- Covenant of God and the Children of Believers. I believe it's Reformed.
- 01:32:48
- Not Baptistic, I understand that even, but it is Reformed, Dutch Reformed, to say that our children are in the covenant.
- 01:33:00
- Now there are different explanations given as to why that's so, and we would not agree with every explanation as to why that's so.
- 01:33:10
- Abraham Kuypers was, we're going to assume they're regenerated. We don't see that they are.
- 01:33:15
- We're going to assume or presuppose it. We would not agree with that. But there are children who, dying in infancy, go to heaven.
- 01:33:29
- And what that means is they're not—they weren't properly part of a mission field. They were properly part of the
- 01:33:36
- Church of Jesus Christ. The blood of Jesus Christ is shed for—they must be regenerated.
- 01:33:44
- They must be believers. How does a two -year -old show faith? Well, in a two -year -old way, not a 20 -year -old way.
- 01:33:52
- We understand that. But no, the idea that our children are a mission field is something we would not agree with.
- 01:33:59
- Okay. I apologize publicly to Brother Engelsma for misrepresenting him in a way that I favored.
- 01:34:08
- But I, for some reason, had that memory in my head. And by the way, there are many
- 01:34:15
- Reformed Baptists who believe—well, first of all, our
- 01:34:22
- Confession even states, the London Baptist Confession states that there are elect infants who will be in heaven who die in infancy.
- 01:34:31
- But there are some, like Charles Spurgeon, who believe all infants who died will be in heaven, not because they are not carrying the sin of Adam and not because they are perfect and without any stain of sin and are worthy of heaven.
- 01:34:52
- But Spurgeon believes that God and His sovereignty would not have permitted them to die and enter into eternity as infants unless they were of the elect and they were going to heaven because they're being covered by the blood of Christ.
- 01:35:11
- But that is an issue that perhaps most Reformed Baptists, although acknowledging that there are definitely some infants who are of the elect who die in infancy, they take an agnostic position typically about numerically the extent of that in regard to making any claim that all infants who die are in heaven.
- 01:35:43
- I want to add a thought to that as to the basis.
- 01:35:49
- It would have to do in part with our view of the covenant and Israel of old being the covenant of the people of God, of which the church in the
- 01:36:00
- New is also. So you have what we'll say the unity of the covenant there.
- 01:36:06
- And then let's look at the Fifth Commandment, for instance. Honor your father and your mother. Oh, that came to children in Israel.
- 01:36:15
- And Paul emphasizes the same in Ephesians. This is the first commandment of promise and applies it directly to the children.
- 01:36:22
- Obey your parents in the Lord. And the fact that there are admonitions to children in the
- 01:36:28
- Old Testament and in the church of Christ in the New Testament shows that they're viewed as part of the church, part of the organic, the living body of Jesus Christ, as you see here on earth.
- 01:36:43
- I'm just trying to give some biblical justification, recognizing some brothers will see it differently.
- 01:36:53
- Yes. And going back just for some clarification, how is the view that you are advocating in this regard different from presumptive regeneration?
- 01:37:05
- Yeah, it's the reason. That's a good question. For instance, let me broaden out a second.
- 01:37:14
- Rome's reason for baptizing infants is because the act of baptism works grace in them, gives them grace.
- 01:37:25
- So now they're in the church. Kuyper's was, we will presume they are regenerating.
- 01:37:31
- And another common but wrong, in our opinion, defense or explanation of why children would be included in the church and covenant of God is that they're in it outwardly, and they stand a better chance of coming to faith in time.
- 01:37:50
- So there are wrong reasons given, and our reason is going to be not presumed regeneration, but that the elect of God, some of the elect we recognize are given faith and brought to salvation later in life.
- 01:38:10
- And I'm not addressing those right now. Some of the elect of God, and especially those born in the covenant, in the line of the covenant to believing parents, are in fact born to them because they are also regenerated.
- 01:38:27
- Elect, regenerated, and through the instruction of believing parents, faith and godliness is born out in their life.
- 01:38:42
- This would be also a reason why the PRC number one emphasizes the need to catechize children.
- 01:38:52
- Our children from age six, in other words, first grade through high school, and then even post high until making a profession of faith, receive a systematic catechism instruction 25 to 30 weeks a year for 12 to 14 years.
- 01:39:15
- And it's also a reason why we have and support Christian education.
- 01:39:22
- And when possible, in most cases it is now, our own Protestant reformed Christian schools where that's not possible.
- 01:39:29
- We encourage the use of other good Christian schools. And not so that the children stand a better chance, that they get more info so they can make the better decision, but because we view them as part of the covenant.
- 01:39:44
- Now, it is true, some are not in fact saved, and they do demonstrate that in time.
- 01:39:53
- So, I don't want this to dominate the entire rest of the program, but according to Reformed Baptists, which we believe is biblical, that everybody who is truly in the covenant will be saved, because everybody who is truly in the covenant is of the elect, and Christ mediates on behalf of those in the covenant.
- 01:40:21
- And how could somebody be in the covenant truly if they are not of the elect? And I have always been puzzled by that understanding.
- 01:40:32
- That's a good question. The PRC distinguishes between being in the covenant and in the sphere of the covenant.
- 01:40:41
- Let me begin by saying our view of the covenant is not just that it's a promise of God or an external arrangement.
- 01:40:50
- We view the covenant as friendship between God and his people. And therefore, there are, in our understanding, no unbelievers, no reprobate in the covenant.
- 01:41:04
- And yet, it's very obvious that in the church, as you find it outwardly, there are unbelievers and godly.
- 01:41:15
- Israel, Israel in the wilderness. And so we say that we view that as the sphere of the covenant in the locality of the covenant.
- 01:41:27
- That's the distinction we make. Others, other Reformed writers and theologians recognize the issue, and they speak in a different way.
- 01:41:37
- They make the distinction differently that some are in the covenant for a time, and then they fall out.
- 01:41:43
- That's a position we would not support. That seems to me, unless I'm misunderstanding the majority of Pado -Baptist pastors and theologians and denominations, that seems to be the most prevalent view that I have heard anyway from them.
- 01:42:03
- That children are in the covenant and then at some point fall out. Yes. I think you're correct.
- 01:42:10
- And we are going to our final break. And if you have a question, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.
- 01:42:17
- ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
- 01:42:23
- As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.
- 01:42:29
- Don't go away. We'll be right back. This program is sponsored by Hope PR Ministry.
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- 01:43:35
- James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend
- 01:43:43
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- 01:43:49
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- 01:43:55
- Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. Then, on Sunday, September 21, at 1 .30
- 01:44:02
- p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the
- 01:44:08
- Bible is the Authentic and Inherent Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.
- 01:44:14
- For more details on the Pre -Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.
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- That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.
- 01:44:30
- That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.
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- 01:44:58
- Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,
- 01:45:07
- Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland, going back to 2005.
- 01:45:17
- One of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.
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- 01:45:39
- Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.
- 01:45:45
- Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the
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- Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great
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- Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,
- 01:46:11
- Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the Triune God that continues in eternity.
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- For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.
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- That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Or call 678 -954 -7831.
- 01:46:31
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- Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, from a tie in County Kildare, Ireland, send you.
- 01:46:41
- I'm Sir Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a
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- Christ -centered, gospel -driven church looking to spread the gospel in the southwest portion of Long Island, New York, and play our role in fulfilling the
- 01:47:14
- Great Commission, supporting and sending for the spread of the gospel to the ends of the earth. We're delighted to be a part of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron radio advertising family.
- 01:47:25
- At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired word of God, inherent in the original writings, complete as the revelation of God's will for salvation, and the supreme and final authority in all matters to which they speak.
- 01:47:42
- We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.
- 01:47:59
- Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear
- 01:48:07
- God's image. If you live near Lindbrook, Long Island, or if you're just passing through on the
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- Lord's Day, we'd love to have you come and join us in worship. For details, visit LindbrookBaptist .org.
- 01:48:19
- That's L -Y -N -BrookBaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.
- 01:48:31
- It is the gift of God, not a result of words, so that no one may boast of the
- 01:48:38
- Lord's blessing in the knowledge of himself. Welcome back.
- 01:48:47
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- That's 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, 1 -800 -NOW -HURT, and 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com,
- 01:49:40
- 1 -800 -NOW -HURT .com. Daniel P. Botafogo has been a faithful supporter of not only this program since its inception in 2005, but also, he has been strongly financially supporting everything that I have done since the early 90s, including the conferences and debates and other things regarding theology that I have arranged.
- 01:50:07
- So, thank you, Dan, for all your support. We're now back with Douglas J.
- 01:50:15
- Kuyper, and I think I asked you this the last time you were on, but is there a family connection with the great
- 01:50:24
- Abraham Kuyper? If so, I have not yet found it. Okay, but that's a pretty common name.
- 01:50:30
- There is. That's a pretty common name. It is a very common name. Right. Okay, before I go to another listener question,
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- I just wanted to have something clarified in my mind. One of the reasons why
- 01:50:45
- Reformed Baptists are very strongly advocating that our children, even if they are being raised in a
- 01:50:56
- Christian home, are a mission field is we see a great danger that has permeated the earth for centuries known as Christian nominalism, and that has even very much infiltrated
- 01:51:14
- Baptists, depending upon where you live. The Southern Baptist Convention and Baptists in the
- 01:51:24
- Bible Belt and other Baptistic evangelicals,
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- Credo Baptists, have virtually become opponents, even if not consciously, opponents to viewing children as a mission field, and you will have children in the
- 01:51:47
- Bible Belt who will be baptized when they're 12 or 13, just because that's the way we always do it.
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- And their families come from a long line of Baptist preachers, so they don't ever doubt that their children are truly
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- Christian because they're raised in a Baptist home. How is the Protestant Reformed Church making efforts not to deceive children who will obviously, unless they die, will become adults being duped into thinking that they're saved?
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- What is the means by which the Protestant Reformed Churches would be basically preserving a church that is not filled with wolves in sheep's clothing, for lack of a better term?
- 01:52:47
- That's a good question. It is true that historically, from Israel on down to today, you have some who trust in their religious or their association with God's covenant people, trust in the works they do, things that have been done to them, so they could trust.
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- They ought not. I'm recognizing the danger of some trusting in their parentage, their baptism.
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- So what are we doing? We are teaching the children and the young people that they must not take for granted.
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- Although we view them as in the covenant, they must not take for granted. Let me put it this way.
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- That's a grace. That's a grace of God to them. They must show thankfulness to God for that grace.
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- And then those who are in the covenant have a calling laid on us, and it's the calling to believe and obey, to live holy, antithetical lives.
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- Number one, our parents ought to be teaching their children these things. Number two, again, the catechism does teach the children these things, the catechism instruction.
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- That depends, I realize, on pastor to pastor or teacher to teacher, but it would be our aim that the children are taught that.
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- They must not assume this is not just a by default. If they are saved, which we believe the elect of them are, it is by grace.
- 01:54:25
- Okay, we have a question from Ronnie in Wading River, Long Island. And Ronnie says,
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- Most Christians that I have ever met, including pastors who are
- 01:54:37
- Pato Baptists, accept Roman Catholic baptism as valid.
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- Do the Protestant Reformed churches also accept Roman Catholic baptism as valid?
- 01:54:49
- That's a very good question. I have greatly benefited by reading a
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- Southern Presbyterian from the 19th century, James Henley Thornwell, who did not accept
- 01:55:05
- Roman Catholic baptism as a valid baptism because he went through painstakingly the reasons why it's not even a baptism, the things that Roman Catholics do in their ritual that are foreign to biblical baptism.
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- Even if they baptize in the name of the Trinity with water, there are other things going on there.
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- It's an exorcism in the Catholic Church. They use oil in addition to water.
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- They invoke Mary and the saints, especially the saint after whom the baby is named, all kinds of things.
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- And the baby is being baptized into the Catholic Church, not into Christ. But anyway, what is your comment on that?
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- PRC would receive as a valid baptism any baptism, number one, and I'm going to say all three.
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- I think I have three things. All three must be true. We're not talking about one or two or three. All three. Number one, in the name of the
- 01:56:12
- Triune God. Number two, with water. Number three, by a person who would be lawfully authorized to administer baptism, both according to that church's standard, but also according to the
- 01:56:35
- Word of God. Now, this is not a defense of Rome. What I'm trying to do is say the question gets split.
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- I had an individual who was baptized in an emergency baptism by a nun in the emergency room.
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- May women baptize? No. So the answer is there could be some
- 01:57:02
- Roman Catholic baptisms of which we'd say, no, that was not a proper baptism. But the average, typical
- 01:57:08
- Roman Catholic baptism, we would say that though it was administered by a person who probably does not believe the gospel, in a church that does not proclaim the gospel, that yet inasmuch as it was a baptism in the name of the
- 01:57:26
- Triune God and with use of water, we would accept it as valid. Well, I'd like you to have a minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding the
- 01:57:40
- Protestant Reformed Churches in America. Thank you. There's much I could say about what we stand for, but what
- 01:57:47
- I want to do in conclusion is point out ways in which you can learn more about us.
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- Number one, there's our website, prca .org. Number two, you have already referred to our mission,
- 01:58:04
- I'm sorry, our publication arm. It's not a denominational official publication arm, but the
- 01:58:09
- Reformed Free Publishing Association. We put out magazines called the
- 01:58:14
- Standard Bearer. That would be our magazine for adults, the
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- Beacon Lights for young people. The Perspectives is a school -sponsored magazine.
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- We have a radio ministry called the Reformed Witness Hour. The seminary puts forth a journal, the
- 01:58:37
- Protestant Reformed Theological Journal, and by reading any of these, some are available online, you can learn more about PRCA.
- 01:58:47
- Of course, from the website, I think you could get email addresses of pastors or professors, and feel free to ask questions that way as well.
- 01:58:58
- Great, and we want to thank you for taking time out of your very busy schedule for being on this program today.
- 01:59:08
- I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.
- 01:59:15
- I want to thank the aforementioned Reformed Free Publishing Association and remind our listeners of its website, rfpa .org.
- 01:59:27
- And don't forget, if you haven't already, give us your mailing addresses if you've won one of these books, so that cvbbs .com,
- 01:59:37
- Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship that book out to you. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater