Bow Tie Dialogue: The Restoration Movement

You see what I'm wearing, so you know what today is. That's right. It's another Bowtie Dialogue here on Your Calvinist Podcast, and it begins right now.

Welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist. Today we're going to be doing our segment called

Bowtie Dialogues. This is when I throw on my bowtie and interview someone from another denomination.

Today's denomination is actually the Restoration Movement, out of which came the

Churches of Christ, the Independent Christian Church, and the Disciples of Christ, which many of you may know,

I actually grew up in a Disciples of Christ church. So we're going to be talking about several things today, things from history, things from the past.

We're going to be talking to my guest about how he arrived at the conclusions he came to, why he holds the doctrines that he does, and what scripture verses he would cite to defend his positions.

This is not a debate. It's just a jovial and friendly conversation. So I hope you enjoy it.

But before we go any further, I want to remind you that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church. So if you're in the

Jacksonville, Florida area, please visit us at sgfcjax .org. Also please keep in mind that I'll be at the

Dangerous Friends Conference that's coming up in March. And if you're interested in going to that conference, you can go to the website in the description and please use my coupon code,

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Now let's get back to the podcast. All right, guys, we're ready to bring in our guest. My guest today is a pastor in the

Independent Christian Church. His name is John Striffler, and he has been a pastor.

He's been in ministry for 16 years, and he's been in the current church that he is pastoring for the last four years.

John, thank you for being a part of Bowtie Dialogues today. I appreciate it. Yes, sir. Howdy, howdy.

Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you, one, that you're willing to do this on very short notice, but I want to tell the audience kind of how we met, because it was interesting how this all came about.

As many people know, I do a Friday Night Live with my wife, where we come in and we just answer questions that people send in through our email bag.

And if anybody wants to participate in that, they can go to kiefoski .com and just send me an email. And I was talking about one of the questions that came in was, can you explain the restoration movement?

And I said, well, I can do my best. I grew up in a Disciples of Christ church, which came out of the restoration movement.

So as I was talking about it, you were interacting with the comments. So apparently you were watching. I don't know how you came to know our show, but you were there.

Yeah, it had just popped up for me. And I came in maybe like 30 seconds before you started answering that question.

And it was like, oh, hey, restoration movement, that's right in my wheelhouse.

Yeah, and it was just interesting because you and I were commenting back and forth. And I was like, well, you're a pastor in that movement.

So am I getting this right? And you were saying, well, generally, yeah, we're in agreement with what I was saying, at least how I was describing everything.

And so that led to a further conversation between you and I. I said, hey, if you ever want to talk more about this, send me an email.

You did. We've talked for the last few days. And so I said, well, why don't we just do a bow tie dialogue?

I try to do one of these about once a month where I'll bring in a representative from another denomination or another movement, and I'll let them simply tell about what they believe and why they believe it.

Even if we disagree, as I say, these are not debates. This is just an opportunity to hear from someone who believes.

It's one thing for me to tell people, well, this is what this person believes, or this is what that person believes. But to hear somebody actually say what they believe, that's very helpful for the audience.

So for the sake of those who might say, and I think this is one of the probably the only maybe real criticisms we may get, somebody might say, well,

OK, well, John is independent Christian church. That's not Church of Christ. That's not what we believe.

So can you for just a moment as we begin, can you give a little bit of a breakdown of the distinctions within the restoration movement?

And from what I understand, there's sort of the Church of Christ, Independent Christian Church and the Disciples of Christ, and I know there's more, but can you kind of explain how those function and kind of who's who?

Yeah, so I guess so obviously we're going to be speaking kind of just in generalities, like so the unique thing

I think about restoration movement churches is if you if you talk to like three different restoration movement pastors, even three, like you get three different stories.

And so one of the hallmarks of kind of our tradition is that the local church is completely autonomous.

Like there's there's you know, there's I often think of like like the Southern Baptists, you know, talk about, you know, it's friendly or not a denomination.

We're friendly. It's friendly cooperation between like minded churches. And for us restoration folks, it's like, yes, like that's great.

But then you went ahead and made a convention on that. So what's going on there? You know, some questions there. But but yeah, essentially the distinction,

I guess, would would come from more like there's a very, we'll say like liberal wing of the restoration movement.

That would be the Disciples of Christ. They kind of broke away because the the heart of the restoration movement is kind of this idea that we're not the what we say is that we're not the only

Christians. And so like there's not an exclusive this claim of like, you know, only restoration movement churches are true

Christian churches. But we want to be known as Christians only. So like denominational denominational affiliations like that's just more of like historically is should it just gets in the way of what we're trying to do as a church community.

And so Disciples of Christ, the short short story is that that group kind of formed more of a a like an official denomination, which sort of ran against and ran in tension with the heart of the restoration movement to begin with.

And so there was a split between them and the churches of Christ that were more of, we'll say, like I had a fundamentalist bend, very conservative bend in a lot of their theology and practice.

And then out of the Disciples of Christ, as the as that as that group continued to get more and more liberal in their their approach to social matters, their approach to even like convictions about scripture or the resurrection, those sort of things.

There was another group that then broke away from them, the independent Christian churches, who said like, hey, like we're not all the way in sort of the fundamentalist camp that like a church of Christ would typically would historically kind of be in.

But we're also not on board with kind of the liberal direction that the Disciples of Christ are going.

We want to be we just want to be like faithful, a faithful Christian church in our local community.

And so that's in a nutshell kind of how the distinctions came about. Sure. And that's kind of goes along with what

I what my thoughts were, right? You have the you have the far conservative Church of Christ, the far liberal

Disciples of Christ, and then the independent Christian church, which you might not say middle of the road, but they certainly try to split the difference.

And was it you who mentioned the the the unity and truth?

Was that you who can you explain that? Yes. So so the the like stone.

So, you know, I know Stone Campbell, that kind of movement, that agreement for Barton Stone and Thomas and Alexander Campbell way back in the day coming out of the the second grade awakening, kind of their their their two big emphases was like it was a first off a commitment to truth.

So that would be like a commitment to the the inspiration and authority of the word of God. And then a commitment to unity that the that the quote from Campbell is that the

Church of Christ on the earth is I'm going to butcher it, but it's it's it's foundationally, constitutionally and essentially one on the on the earth.

And so those are the two kind of like that. While there's not necessarily like creedal statements and creedal convictions within the restoration movement, like those are the the two kind of guiding principles, really, with it also with the added or like an emphasis on evangelism or doing all of this to reach the world for Christ.

Sure. And I mentioned this being a part of the disciples when

I was growing up, I mentioned that to you, right, that our church, actually the church

I pastor because I'm pastoring the church I grew up in. But we left the disciples in ninety nine and I have proof of that.

I've actually brought it today. There you go. This is the Forest Christian Church mug that we had.

And Forest Christian Church was Forest Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. And so if you're if you're in a town, this is for the audience, like I know you know this,

John, but if you're in a town where you see a church that has a chalice with an X on it, that's the symbol for the

Disciples of Christ. That's the St. Andrew's Cross is the X cross and it's inside of a chalice. Well, that's the

Disciples of Christ. And that is the liberal wing of the of the restoration movement.

They held some of the same doctrinal beliefs. And we're going to talk about those in a bit, doctrinal beliefs on baptism, doctrinal beliefs on how someone's saved and what you know, how those things are constituted.

But regarding the social issues, they were all over the map. Now, the church I grew up in was socially conservative, but it was socially conservative in a liberal denomination, which is why we left the denomination in ninety nine.

I mean, we like many people leave other denominations that go crazy. Our church saw what was happening.

The last national convention we went to, our pastor, the former pastor, my predecessor, the last national convention we went to with the

Disciples of Christ was woke 24 or 20 years before anybody knew what woke was.

Oh, yeah, they had they were giving out condoms. They had like stands giving out condoms and they were endorsing abortion.

They were endorsing homosexual marriage and and and even homosexual clergy in the nineties.

I mean, this is like, like, yeah, that's or yeah, I know. So I I'm a bit of a hodgepodge, too, in my training.

So, you know, I grew up, actually grew up in a restoration movement church without even realizing it was restoration movement, went to school at Anderson University.

So Church of God Anderson School. So like the non charismatic version of the Church of God.

And then I did graduate work out at Fuller in California. But I do

I just so you talked about this idea of like your restoration movement. It's kind of hard that you don't like the denominational videos you do.

How do we include those and whatnot? And so, yeah, the the the the restoration movement folks would be the ones always like, you know, holding up the holding up the book here and being like,

I don't I don't see that. And where do you where do you even get that in here? So, yeah, it's like the

Disciples of Christ. That's a that's an interesting like turn of like, where did that come from? Yeah, it just seems so odd to me to come out of that movement that is a ostensibly supposed to be focused on what what the

Bible says. And as you said, holding the Bible as the authority. And we're going to talk about that in a little while about how we differ on some things.

But yeah, you and I both, I think, would say we have to go to the word of God. That's our authority. And so it's interesting to see a movement grow so far away.

But but as you mentioned, and this is this is an interesting distinction, the Stone Campbellite sort of desire was to not be denominational.

And yet the Disciples of Christ became one of the seven mainline denominations.

Yeah, people often realize that. Yeah. Yeah. And that was that was that was really that was one of the things that like it was the you know, the liberal trajectory, but then it was also the organization of an official hierarchy that initially was once after the

Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ. But like the real like the the the where the rubber hit the road for then independent

Christian churches was like, well, hey, you like the whole point of our movement is that we're not supposed to organize under a hierarchy, under a denomination.

But you guys have gone and done just that. So like we just we can't be a part of that anymore.

Yeah, when we left, there was actually a threatening of us losing our property and things, which is what happens in like Methodist churches, which is why there's such a difficulty sometimes.

And if I'm mistaken on this, Methodists, feel free to correct me in the comments. From what I understand, when

Methodists leave the denomination because of the liberalism, you know, United Methodist Church, there's there's sometimes a problem with the fact that the the congregation doesn't own their property.

It's owned by the denomination. And we had a similar issue. But by God's grace, we were able to overcome that and not lose everything that had been built up until that point.

So we remained a church, kept our property, but we were able to leave the denomination in 99.

At that point, I would say from 99 to 06, when I became the pastor, it was probably about as close to an independent

Christian church without the name. We didn't call ourselves an independent Christian church, but my former pastor was

Restoration. He had gone to Johnson Bible College. Have you ever heard of that? Oh, yeah. One hundred percent. OK, and that's where that's where we send our

Johnson University now. But like our student ministry goes there for C .I .Y., the Christ in Youth is the kind of the middle school and high school summer programs around the country for Restoration movement or the

Restoration movement flair. And so that's where we send our students. So, yeah,

Johnson's a good school. Yeah. Well, it is a

Restoration theology school, right? That's why you're sending your kids there in the same way. Like, you know, someone from my church, we would send somebody maybe to Southern Theological, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, because even though we don't agree with everything, they're theologically in line with us.

Johnson would be theologically in line with you guys. OK, yeah. Well, let's talk about then some of those theological distinctions, because I think those are going to be really an important part of our conversation.

But before we do that, I just I meant to do this earlier, and I just sort of jumped right into the conversation.

Can you tell us sort of your ministerial background? So, you know, we're asking, well, who's

John and what's he done? I know I said you were in the ministry for six years. You've been the pastor for the last four years. And somebody even had a question about you having that title pastor, because that's not something that's.

Yeah. In various church to church, I've been in, you know, in a little bit here, too.

But, you know, I've been in ministries where, you know, it was very much don't call me a pastor, I'm a minister. Like that was an important distinction.

So that what I would say is more that's more what you find in like Church of Christ spheres and Church of Christ ministries.

But, yeah, that's absolutely that's a conversation that happens regularly in our in our stream.

But, yeah, my my story, I'm a I'm a I'm a pastor's kid. My dad was a he's a worship pastor for 20 years before he moved into like the business and whatnot.

I was around for the last 14 of those years. So it was one of those things where I mentioned just briefly before, like I I actually grew up in the restoration movement and didn't even realize

I had grown up in the restoration movement until I actually like going through like my studies at Anderson and then

Fuller. And then I was like, oh, hey, yeah, we we were the whole time. And so, again, like a big hallmark of our our kind of our stream in our tradition is we're like we're not we're not the only

Christians, but we want to be known as Christians only not restoration movement folks. We're just Christians. And so that was the church.

Those were the churches that I grew up in, bounced around kind of all over the the eastern

Midwest. So I'm originally from Indianapolis, big restoration movement hub, a bunch of churches there did student ministry and whatnot.

Is one of the reasons I actually decided I went to Purdue for a couple of years, tried engineering. That was just not my cup of tea.

And so actually went to Anderson because I was serving as a student ministry intern. And Anderson was the closest school to that so that I could continue both working at a church and preparing for a career in ministry.

Then I was up in Michigan for about a decade working with Christian camps during the summer, some college ministry and some some church plants in there.

And then my wife and I moved down here to we're in Huber Heights, which is just on the north side of Dayton, Ohio, to First Christian Church in Huber Heights, where I serve as the connections pastor here.

Rob Sweeney is the other pastor here. He's our lead pastor. I help him kind of however he needs me do a lot with our discipleship and our groups and teach and all that.

And, yeah, it's just been it's been it's been a blast. It's been a wild ride, but it's been been been a good time. How did he feel about you coming on a

Calvinist podcast or did you tell him? Well, see, the the the other kind of I feel like with like restoration folks, like we are we're the the king of kind of like catchphrases, right?

We don't we don't do creeds. We don't do but we we have a catchphrase for everything. And so like, you know, one of the the kind of the the phrases that's kind of attached to our movement historically is this idea that like where where the scriptures speak, we speak where the scripture silent, we're silent.

And there's all kinds of conversation about like, what does that mean? But really essentially what for for us here, what that means is that like, hey, where the scripture is clear, that's what we're going to we're going to like we're going to be clear in our teaching.

But where there's there's freedom where the scripture doesn't give explicit destruction or instructions.

Rather, we are we're free to investigate and kind of explore the the whole magnitude of what

God has revealed and what God is doing in the world. And so like like I would actually probably consider myself more of a

Calvinist now than when I started my my. So, I mean, I'm on this slow journey.

Who knows where this is going to end? But yeah, so. Well, you heard it here, folks, we'll see where he's at in five years.

I have many friends that I call my not yet Calvin. Actually, I have one specific friend I call my not yet Calvinist friend, but maybe you'll be another one.

There you go. Well, with that, speaking of theological distinctions, theological convictions that are that are within the restoration movement, there are a there's a lot of things that I think would divide the typical restoration theological position from my own beliefs and convictions.

And as I understand the history of at least the Campbellite side, and again,

I'm not saying that derogatory or derisive. Some people don't want like you said, they don't want to be called anything but Christian.

So when you say Campbellite, they take that as a shot or they you know, if you say restoration as an attack, that's not that's not my intention.

I'm just saying, OK, those who those who were birthed out of the

Campbell stone. And there's also in there, Walter Scott is in there as well. You know, so you got two

Campbell's, Alexander and Thomas. You got Barton Stone. You've got the what

I say, I think Willard Scott, like I told you, he's one hundred and five years old today for those who are as old as me and understand that joke.

But so you got Walter Scott. But I have a friend on Twitter. He is

Restoration Movement, and he argues that it goes that the history of the restoration movement or the history of this theology is actually predates all of those men and goes back way into history.

And he would actually see, I guess, a historical line. I don't want to misrepresent his position.

He's a he's a nice fellow and we talk online a lot. So so from your perspective, do you see.

Maybe the the movement in America beginning with that, because he talks about stuff that happened in Europe and things that I'm aware of, so what what is your knowledge of the history of the movement and if it's not if you don't know, it's it's fine if you yeah, yeah,

I can I can I can share what you get in my, you know, what I've kind of like come to and just my understanding where I'm at.

So, you know, especially in like from the the American experience,

I know there's like because the one of the the core purposes, I guess, of this this movement as it was launched, you know, coming out of the

Second Great Awakening and kind of like the revival culture of the Second Great Awakening is this idea of reforming the church like as a like capital

C, not the Roman Catholic, but just the Catholic variety. With a restored emphasis on early

Christian practice, you know, the idea. And so that's that's where like not the creeds are bad in and of themselves, but the conviction was that a lot of these can distract from the like we'll say, like the true essence that we see in like the acts as the apostles are first building the church.

So there's just this conviction of these early leaders of like, how do we how do we recover and experience the like, you know, the church in 1810, 1820, the same experience they had in the 30s and 40s as they were first experiencing like, you know, this this the the the resurrection and how that changes the way the spiritual community functions.

And so from a from the get go here, like on our side of the pond, like the restoration movement is a hodgepodge, right, of all bunch of different stuff.

Right. There's there's certainly there's Presbyterian and Anglican influence. Like that's where like like Campbell and even

I think I'm pretty sure Barton Scott came out of an Anglican tradition. But then there's also like they're heavily they're

Presbyterians and Anglicans, but they're heavily influenced by Scottish Baptists. And that's also it's also about the time that like the

Wesleyan, the holiness traditions are kind of picking up around the same area. You know, the

Ohio, Indiana area. And so those groups start to intermix and kind of like communicate and or and kind of build off each other a little bit.

So it's a hodgepodge of all these different traditions coming together. And again, like I think that the kind of the marks of that kind of that first the initial community are just, again, like highly skeptical of anything that's creating division.

And so not that we reject denominations as like, well, there shouldn't be denominations. Like, no, we're very much in this position of like denominations display the multifaceted grace of God, you know, how

God continues to use people in all circumstances, in all walks of life to reveal his glory, reveal the magnitude of what he's done in Jesus.

But skeptical of of denominational issues that end up leading to tension and conflict.

And so, yeah, I think that's that's that kind of like my train of thought, like I think that's that's where the that's where the next train of thought station is.

I got the one of the big things that I remember in reading and studying some of the history of the

Stone Camel Movement was the idea the idea of the word restoration was that they were restoring the ancient gospel and the idea of restoring something that had been that had been lost.

And there are those who would say that the gospel had been lost.

Where do you see that in regard to how they understood what they were doing and how they understood sort of their relationship to other churches and perhaps church in general?

Yeah, I'm so I there's there's certainly like and I think you definitely get that in we'll say maybe some more fundamentalist circles of like this idea.

So, I mean, I know I've worked with with folks who like who, you know, fully are fully convinced that, you know, unless you're baptized in a church of Christ, you're like it's not a valid baptism.

And so like there's certainly there's certainly that like tradition of thought in the movement.

But again, one of the one of the the kind of the difficult things is just kind of like nailing down where exactly the movement, the stream as a whole actually stands.

And so, like, for instance, I would say especially you get more I'm trying to think of so it's not

Lipscomb, it's the other. So David Lipscomb out of Nashville was one of the other kind of the next generation, the second generation restoration folks.

And I thought, was it Meeker that he was he went back and forth with in Texas? But it's this idea of it's a very similar message from like the

Reformation, right? Not that the gospel had been lost, but that it had been covered up by like we'll say, well, you know, the history of man,

I think, is one of the the quotes that Meeker kind of writes back to him.

And so it's kind of this distinction of where have we added things to where it's now a distraction from people encountering

Jesus and making decisions? And like where where can we recover that in our worship and in our practice?

Yeah. And this it's interesting you mentioned the Reformation, because that is sometimes that is an accusation leveled against the reformers that they were saying, you know, that we that some would say, well, the gospel had been lost for a thousand years.

Well, we would say that the gospel had been shrouded during particularly within the medieval period that had been it had been shrouded in mysticism and shrouded in misunderstanding and hidden because the word of God was not being taught and people were not being instructed in the truths of the word.

And one of the one of the main goals of the Reformation was to get the word of God into the hands of the people so that they could actually hear and read what

God had to say. And so in that regard, there there, you know, we're not saying the gospel wasn't there.

We're saying that the gospel was was shrouded and unclear. But but you're saying there are those that would say that unless you're part of this group, which is the

I guess the churches of Christ, the very fundamental churches of Christ, then you're not saved. Yeah, yeah.

And and there's there's there are people, you know, there are people in the independent fundamentalist church who say that there are some people say, if you're not a

Baptist, you're not going to heaven. If you're not, you know, if you're not this, you're not going to heaven. So you're certainly not not unique in that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there's I mean, and to to kind of like that. So the restoration movement, right, is like a like a like is also just like a catch all for for I think for a number of like streams and groups that don't fit neatly or like as neatly within other.

So like, for instance, like if you look just look up restoration movements, they'll throw in groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter -day

Saints in restoration movement, whereas like like like, no, we would we would not we would not say those those groups are because they're rejecting the very heart of the movement that like no, we're submitted to the word of God.

And so it's like the like, so if you don't have the truth, the word of God, you can't part, you can't have you can't have unity.

And so, yeah. Well, let's talk. I want to walk through, if it's OK with you,

I want to walk through some doctrinal distinctions and and ask you if you just sort of like, how do you understand these things and how maybe they're understood in the churches of Christ?

And we know how they're understood in the disciples of Christ. But but like like one is

I remember growing up being taught that salvation was a fivefold idea.

Have you heard this? Yes. What the five things are and how and can you explain that to us?

A little. I mean, it's been a while since I've since I've heard the fivefold. So I mean, I vaguely remember also

I are like hearing something similar growing up. I remember it had to do with I think it was hearing, believing, being baptized and then something to do with obedience and perseverance.

I think and I'm wrong about that. Whoever knows the fivefold, I remember being taught on my fingers like you had to hear, you had to confess, you had to believe you had to be baptized.

Maybe that's it. You had to hear, confess, believe, baptize. And then you had to persevere, right?

Like like you had to be obedient. And and that's an interesting

I just remember as a kid, you know, like we're going to you know, we're going to say this together. Patsy Hoffman taught it to me.

I remember my Sunday school teacher, you know, you know, but it was but the key one obviously in there was the baptism.

Yeah. And and I remember the reading the Stone Campbell, some of their writings as you know, because, again,

I grew up in this church. So, you know, even though even though there was somewhat of a somewhat of a diminishment of history, there was like, you know, we're not too concerned with history.

We just want to know what the Bible says. They would still say, well, you know, they would still quote, you know, the

Campbells and they would they would quote and say, well, here's one thing, you know, that we we we get from them.

And some of what I remember was this idea of restoring the ancient gospel. And what was what was restored was a baptism for the remission of sins.

So tell me what you believe about that and tell me what the movement believes in regard to what baptism does in regard to salvation.

Yeah. So, um, let's see, I make sure I'm as precise as I can be in my my language here.

So, you know, so obviously that's that's that comes straight out of like Acts 238, right, for us, where Peter says, like, you know, what after he preaches, what should we do?

And he says, repent and be baptized in the name of the name

Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. And so where I guess we would like kind of restoration movement tradition would kind of just take that at face value of like,

OK, like here's here's Peter kind of giving us a just a straightforward process of what it looks like to surrender your life to Jesus, to surrender your life to Jesus and to begin this

Christian journey. Then, like. We would

I guess we would say later kind of understand as folks develop their understanding of the different elements of baptism and like regeneration, how connect to to to things like to salvation.

Are we saved because we're baptized through the wall like this, that and the other? We would say of like, hey, like, that's all just with that's contained within the text and not necessarily explicitly iterated through the text.

And so however it works, like, yep, it's just in the text would be half the

I think how the traditional restoration movement approach would be to that.

OK, but when it comes to like the churches of Christ, let's and I know you're not churches of Christ, but I want to again, we're talking more broadly restorational movement.

It seems to be fundamental that unless you are baptized and you even said earlier, baptized in the church of Christ.

So it's not just in general. What is it about the church of Christ baptism that makes it more effectual or like we'll just say actually effectual versus a baptism that happens in a in a in a in a

Baptist church? And the reason why I'm asking, I understand where there may they may take great issue with infant baptism.

We're going to talk about that in a moment. Yeah. But but let's say when I get baptized in a

Baptist church, I'm baptized by immersion. I'm baptized in accordance with the profession of faith. I'm baptized in the name of the father, the son and the

Holy Spirit in a church of Christ. They're baptized according to a profession of faith.

They're baptized by immersion. I don't know if they are they

Jesus only in the sense that when they baptized, they baptized only in the name of Jesus. And that's that's an important distinction.

So to talk about that for a minute. Yeah. And so so I know, again,

I'm speaking just generally from, again, from peripheral, but for especially for for more fundamentalist church of Christ communities like the the baptismal formula is

Acts 2 to 38. So it's it's that's what you're like. That's what is is stated as you're baptized, like you're you're baptized in the name.

And some churches are even like, you know, it's got to be whether it be King James, like it's got to be a certain wording of that of that.

But the like the effect of the effectualness is that you are baptized 100 percent in line with what the text says.

And so they like like they would say because like even even like us, like we baptize as a simple profession of like we're committing that to believing that Jesus is our savior.

He died, rose again and that sort of thing. And then also like there's a profession of obedience, like so then we're committing to live our life as best we're able to, according to what he's laid out in the word.

That's not close enough to the the acts, the acts profession that Peter gives.

And then even in like in, you know, first or second Peter, where it talks about how, you know, by baptism now you're you're now saved.

And so the connection between those two texts is really the the heart,

I think, of where the more conservative fundamentalist take comes.

OK, so when we talk about, you know, the emphasis on on particular verses, right,

I remember you heard me tell the story the other night, but some people didn't see the show. So I want to I want to remind people

I had a friend who went to Johnson Bible College who was very much committed to restoration theology while I was at a

Southern Baptist seminary here in Jacksonville. And I was very committed to Baptist theology and still am, even though I would say now maybe more reformed

Baptist theology, but still I'm a Baptist through and through. And I had a bracelet on my bracelet.

It said EPH 2 .8 to 10 or no, no, it was just EPH 2 .8.

It was Ephesians 2 .8, for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God. And he saw my bracelet and he said, well, if I had that bracelet, it would say

Acts 2 .38. Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin and you will receive or repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and you'll receive the gift of the

Holy Spirit. And I remember thinking, OK. We have two passages that because I believe in the inspiration of scripture and I believe in tota scriptura, meaning

I believe the whole Bible is inspired, not just part of it. I don't believe there are contradictions in scripture.

I believe that they that they run roughshod over one another or one it takes priority over another, but that it is all

God's word. And so with that said, I, you know, even back then when

I was, you know, in my mid twenties, I remember thinking, well, these don't contradict each other. They can't contradict each other because it's

God's word. So why is it that, and this is opinion, this is me asking,

John, your opinion. Why is it that such an emphasis is placed on one verse in what we would call a historical narrative passage?

This is not this is not a didactic passage like we find in Romans where Paul is outlining doctrine or, or even in the teachings of Jesus, where Jesus is specifically teaching something, but rather this is in a narrative passage where Peter is answering a question that's been placed to him in the midst of a sermon.

He's just preached, you know, his, his Pentecost sermon. Now he's being asked, how do we respond to this?

And he, and he gives his answer. Why is this one passage placed in priority above seemingly all other passages to give us what you consider to be the baptismal formula?

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I, the, I guess the, the, again, from, from that, like that conservative standpoint,

I remember working, there's a similar, um, you know, a pastor that, or minister, he would, he would not call himself a pastor.

He, he was a, he's a minister. Um, and that's where I remember having this, this same conversation with him.

Uh, because even when I had started kind of working for this, this, this ministry, um, like I was very much like, kind of like just all over the board denominationally.

I was, uh, coming out of, um, you know, my, my studies in Fuller. Um, and so I really, with an emphasis on interdenominational, um, you know, like practices and whatnot.

Um, and so it's like, I asked that, that same question to him of like, why is, why is it this way?

Um, so I remember we did this as a, even as a staff, we did this whole study where, you know, we, we looked for every, like, you know, um, instance of the word baptizo, um, in, in the new

Testament. Um, and it's just like, okay, we're just going to read through them and study. And so, but, but I remember his very clearly his conclusion was, well, this is where, uh, scripture seems to be the most clear, um, where it's and, and, and, and even, you know, like where, like I personally would like, well,

I mean, yes, but there's also other, other things to even, you know, to weigh in other passages to include.

Cause again, like you said, uh, keeping very like, like they're, they're not, they're not competing with one another.

You know, it's, it's, it's one way of telling, uh, the, it's, it's, it's all the same story. It's all the same faith.

Um, and so I think it's just, again, it's, it's, it's personal conviction. Um, and personally, just a lot of it comes down to, uh, like the, the, the local, like the, the autonomy as in there, there is no, um, there is no higher authority, even for like a hermeneutic standpoint.

There's, there's sometimes there's very much a skepticism of kind of like folks are like, like higher authorities that would claim, um, you know, there's, there's, there's restoration movement, church folks, and there's people that they, they trust and that they, um, that they believe.

Um, and like, that's like, that's, that's who we can trust. That's who we'll go with. Um, and that's kind of like, we're like, we're just gonna, we're, we're gonna like, we're gonna plant our flag here.

And this is just where we're going to plant our flag. Um, and so, but again, I say that all that is just like, this is my peripheral experience, my, uh, like opinion is

I've interacted with folks, um, as opposed to, and in all things, right. Like with all this, every, like I said, like every, um, kind of restoration independent church, like you're definitely going to experience that independent side of things.

Um, or it's like, it's going to be different from community community. Like that would not be even our stance, our community where we're at now.

In a minute, I want to talk about the, um, the passage that we would prioritize in regard to baptism.

But I want to, I want to, before I do that, just don't let me forget if I forget to come back to it. Uh, would you in your church and I know you're not the lead pastor, but, but you, you're, you're, would your lead pastor or you, would you accept a baptism?

If someone had been baptized in a Baptist church and do you think the same? Okay. But is that the, is that the same for a church of Christ?

Like if I, if I, if I moved to a church of Christ and said, okay, I was baptized as a Baptist, would they make me be rebaptized?

I would say it depends on which church of Christ you go to. Uh, it depends on how, how conservative, how fundamental they are.

Um, like I, there, there, there are churches of Christ that would say like, okay, well, you need to be rebaptized.

Um, there are where it's like for us, our, our, our stance is, is if you've made the decision, uh, to, to go into the waters and be baptized by immersion, um, at some point in your life, at some point in your faith journey, um, it's a valid baptism.

If you've like surrendered and recognize Jesus as your savior, you recognized and committed your life to Jesus as your

Lord. Um, yep. You're in. Okay. Well, we're going to talk in a minute about what makes a valid baptism and what if somebody hasn't been baptized?

So we're going to get there in a moment. But before we do that, I want to, I want to go back to the passage because we were talking about how

Acts 2 38 sort of functions as a, as a seminal or at least a central passage in the, in the restoration teaching.

And I think that I think you and I, even if people disagree with some of what we're saying, I don't think anybody would disagree that Acts 2 38 sort of stands as the, as, as, you know, it's almost like, you know, in, in, in, in reform circles,

Ephesians 2 8 tends to stand as one of those passages that we, that we lift up and say, here, here's our doctrine of, you know, justification.

We're just faced by grace through faith alone and not by works. Right. So it's Ephesians 2 8 through 10. Um, so, but, but when it comes to baptism, and it's interesting, you said you went through every, every, you know, study of every use of the baptizo word.

I would, I would be curious how that study went, because there are times when baptizo doesn't even reference water baptism, doesn't reference being, you know, baptized in the red sea and things like that, you know, speaking of Moses.

But the, the, the, the, the seminal passage, and I would say this is not just me or our tradition,

I would say historically the passage, which has carried the most weight regarding baptism has not been

Acts 2 38, even though it's important, I would say that the passage that has carried the most weight has been, um, the, the, the great commission of Christ where he commands baptism in the triune name.

And again, because we are not, we are not. Put pitting scripture against scripture.

When I hear Peter say, you know, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. And then I read Jesus's words where Jesus says, go therefore and baptize them in the

Anima, the singular name of the, of the father, the son and the

Holy spirit. Right. This, this becomes the formula.

If you want to say, and I don't even like the word formula, but if you want to say the baptismal language of, of the new covenant church is that we are going to baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the

Holy spirit. So much so that by the second century, the dedicate, which was an early church document, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but it was an early writing in the church so much so that it was, it was the practice of the church that they would actually dip three times.

They would dip on behalf of the father and on behalf of the son, on behalf of the spirit of, you know, in the name of rather not on behalf of, but in the name of, and so when, when a person from your tradition says, well, well, the clearest and seminal passages acts two 38, how would you respond to someone who says, no, the clearest and seminal passage is actually this passage, this passage, which speaks of the triune name.

And, and, and I mean, just, just give me your thoughts on that as well. Yeah. So I would say like, so the, it's,

I guess the, the distinction that is probably often made is the, between, between process and formula in terms of like, cause, cause that's,

I mean, we, you know, that's what we, like we, when we, when we baptize folks here at FCC, it's there's public confession,

Jesus is Lord. Jesus is my savior. Jesus is my Lord. And then, Hey, then whoever's doing the baptizing is okay.

We now baptize you in the name of the father, son, and the Holy spirit. And so, okay.

So you used to try, you use the triune name in baptism. Okay. Oh yes. Yep. And so like,

I think it's more of like the, the, the distinction would be in acts that we would see a process layout where, and then in Matthew 28, we see the over overarching vision and purpose for our, for our ministry.

And so, but I guess, is that, is that distinction? Yeah. And I mean, I've even heard it, and this was actually,

I told you my former pastor, you know, was, was restoration movement, at least he, you know, he had graduated

Johnson and all that. And he, you know, that's where he was from. And he, he, he would say it like this, which

I always thought was interesting. It seemed almost like he was, it almost seemed like he was like cutting the line in half, like he was riding the line.

He would say, I baptize you into Christ in the name of the father and of the son of the Holy spirit, like, like, like, like that was his phrase, which, which, which again, and he didn't baptize me by the way, just to throw that out there.

I was baptized by a Baptist minister, a good Baptist baptized me.

But in, in that regard, this, this goes to the question of what do we believe happens?

Cause when he said, I baptize you into Christ, it reminds me of another time that I've seen specifically more church of Christ baptism where, and it was,

I know, you know, Duck Dynasty guys that they're restoration guys. Have you ever met them?

I have not met him, but, uh, despite the, the, the, the, the gangly beard I got going on, maybe you'd be the red haired, uh,

I've never been that deep into Louisiana. I don't know if I'd, I don't know if I'd make it out, but, well, they,

I saw, I saw Phil Robertson, the patriarch of the family. I saw him performing a baptism and he said, while he was performing,

I could find the video if I had to, to prove this. But, but if I remember correctly, his words were, um,

I'm going to put you in this water, you're going to come out saved. Basically. You're going to come out, you're going in a center, coming out, you know, you're going to be filled with the

Holy spirit. And he said, um, I baptize you into Christ. That, that was the word, the language he used, he baptized.

I don't remember if he said, father, son, Holy spirit. But I remember he said, I'm baptizing you into Christ. This is your, this is your immersion into Christ.

So is that the theologically when you're teaching someone about baptism, do you teach them that it is baptism that is the, the, the, the act whereby a person is made a

Christian? We, so we would, it's the, it's the act that is necessary for the obedience.

Um, like, so the, the, the, the historically, I guess, you know, we say historically, so for like, like 200 years, at least, you know, in the restoration movement, folks, um, defined, um, like the, a

Christian as anyone who, um, who has trusted fully, um, in, in, uh,

Jesus in Christ and then is obedient to his word.

Um, and so like there, there's the unique, like the, both of those marks. And so like, I know,

I know some, there, there's a lot of conflation that happens particularly in like, even more like conservative independent

Christian churches, um, and whatnot of like, like salvation issues and obedience issues are the same.

They're not. And in some, in some respects, yes, they are. They are. I mean, obviously it's all one, you can't separate those, um, completely and whatnot.

Um, but we would say more of, and I'm going to say it's, it's, I want to say it was, yeah, it was, it was

Alexander Campbell. Um, who, um, who talked about the distinction between, um, like the, that we are saved by Jesus only saving is

Jesus, Jesus's work only. Um, and then our response is to live in obedience, like an obedient life, uh, submitted to Christ and his word.

Um, and so like, it's, it's not a, it's, it's not an either or it's a both and sort of thing.

Um, yeah, I guess that's probably the, the best way I can,

I can describe the reformed or the restoration position. Okay. So baptism is an, is an act of obedience in your view?

Yes. Okay. Um, trying to nail it down a little further. And again, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm more like within the movement, you can say, well, this group would hold to this and maybe not so much this group, but so, so I want to know your thoughts, but I also want to know sort of the broader context.

Um, so are there those, and would you agree with them? Are there those who would say, unless you are baptized, you will not see the kingdom of heaven?

There, there are certainly those, um, who would say that, um, for me personally,

I don't know if like, that's not something that I can say, like, I can't take a definitive stance on that because I don't,

I don't see that through like, you know, the, the, the, the restoration books, I don't see that plainly, um, in the scriptures because you, you know, you have examples of, of, um, you know, the, the thief on the cross, um, you know, there's the

Alistair Begg, like the, his, his viral clip from a couple of years ago of like, you know, like the, the thief gets to heaven and all these folks like,

Oh, did you do these things? These things? And like, nope, nope. It's like, well, what are you doing here? And it says the man on the cross next to me said

I could come, um, you know, like that, that sort of, and so, um, but there, there are certainly people who would, who, who have, who have said, and continue to say like, unless you're baptized, yep, you're not, you're not actually, um, saved.

And so that's where, like for us, even for me, like I would make the distinction of like, like get

Jesus, Jesus alone saves. And so there's nothing magical about the waters of baptism so much as the, the, the power is in the efficacy is in the necessary obedience, uh, of surrender, uh, to, to, uh, the call of Christ.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, and this again, it just, trying to think through this, these thoughts, right.

I'm going to, I'm going to throw out a few theological questions and you just tell me, maybe you can tell me where you stand and you can also say where the, you know, where the broader restoration movement people would stand.

All right. Does the restoration or do you believe in, does the restoration movement believe in, um, in imputational righteousness that, that, that the righteousness we receive is imputed, um, to us because of the work of Christ?

Broadly speaking, I think there's, there's definitely like me personally. Yes. Um, and, and I said, broadly, that is, that is becoming more common.

Okay. But was that, was that something, because it seems to me that that's the heart of like sola fide, right?

Like justification by faith alone is, is, is justification. I always say it's theological shorthand for justification by the work of Christ alone, being that we are, that we're the, the imputational righteousness or righteousness is imputed to us.

It's not something we attain by our obedience. Our obedience is byproduct of not the cause of our justification.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that, like that would, um, I, like, I would say like historically that's been, um, the commitment of, especially like predominant restoration movement leaders, um, well, like, like you kind of had mentioned before, you know, like one of the, one of the unique things

I think we're working through in our stream and our tradition is this, like, so one of our, I think one of the drawbacks, one of the weaknesses, um, is like this historical unrootedness.

Um, you know, like there's, there's very much like restoration movement is very much also, there's an emphasis on, uh, like millennialism, right, this idea of like, we're restoring, we're reforming the church because we're about to usher in, um, this, you know, the, the, the, this, this, the, um, the, the millennial kingdom.

Um, and so, um, that was very much that it was a big part of the growth of the movement in the first hundred years of the movement.

Um, and so, um, there's with that emphasis there, there very much comes this sense of like, well, again, like you said, like, well, history doesn't really matter so much.

What matters is right now. And what, how we're like able to set people up moving forward. But I think there's definitely becoming a, a, not just a desire, but a needed desire in our, in our, our, our churches, our folks, um, of like understanding, like not just where we're going, but how we got here, um, and, and definitely like recovering, um, some of the things that we might,

I would say definitely too skeptical of in the past. Um, but really recovering a lot of, um, just the, the, the wealth and the depth of particularly like Protestant tradition in, um, in, uh, in the

West, in America, um, and how that like, you know, can just set us up for healthy churches, um, now and moving forward.

Gotcha. Well, the reason why I brought up the, the imputational, uh, righteousness is because the question would come when, when is

Christ righteousness imputed to us, is it when we believe or when we're baptized that that's, that's a, that's a broader question, right?

Um, because those who would say we're not Christians until we're baptized, we're not truly born again until baptism.

Um, and again, that's a whole other discussion because I've, I've, from what I understand, they, they don't typically use the term baptismal regeneration, but rather terms like baptismal remission or, you know, uh, language like that.

And so all of that comes into play. And really, I think this is where people on my side look with a lot of suspicion at folks from the restoration movement, because when we begin to talk about what it is that actually saves and what it, and you've said, you know, from your perspective, it's

Jesus who saves, it's Christ's work that saves, you believe in imputational righteousness. All of those things are great, but there are those who would say, um, you know, that this, this action that I, that I perform this or not, not, not that I perform, but this action that I under undergo this baptism is what brings about my right standing with God.

Right. And so people on some of the people on our side would say, but wait, that's justification by works.

And, and, and how would you respond if someone said that, that, that, that by holding to the necessity of, of a particular form of baptism in a particular way that that's justification by works.

And so like I would, then when, when I said, yeah, though, you know, two seconds ago, it was, yeah. As in like, I, I definitely agree. And, and, and even us within, um, you know, within restoration movement folks, like, like that, that's our critique as well.

Um, and so that's, you know, that's why we're, we're, um, we're independent and not, not church of Christ. Um, and especially like the, you know, more our critique and more like conservative, more fundamental church of Christ circles.

Um, because yeah, that, like, that's, that's very much the, the mindset behind that position is that like, again, once, you know, once this book was finished, nothing really of value, uh, came about afterwards.

And so it's, it's, everything has got to be tied directly, uh, to, uh, to a text explicitly to a text, um, and to where we would just say, that's just not, not, not a tenable way of like, not, not just like living out, but preserving, uh, the faith, uh, moving forward.

And so, um, yeah, like I, I, I would respond probably with the same critique that you would give, uh, those folks.

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Thank you. Okay. Um, within the, uh, within this theological, and I know we're getting close to an hour mark,

I hope you have a few extra minutes, but I do, I do want to ask you a few questions from the folks who send in questions online, but, but as we sort of try to put a bow on these theological things,

I want to ask you one, one more theological question. Because again, the big issue is, and there are people in, there are people in the

Protestant Reformation who believe in baptismal regeneration. I mean, Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration.

And, and, and so we, we are, obviously I would differ with them. Um, uh, I believe baptism is a sign of entrance into the new covenant.

I don't believe that it is a, uh, that, that it is effectual for salvation. I believe that it is a sign of the promise that God gives us in Christ.

And that by believing in him, we are saved and receiving the sign is sign of entrance into the King. They, again, for those who want to know what my position is, which is outlined and described in the second

London Baptist confession, even though I hold the first London, I think it's better articulated in the second London. Don't give me a hard time.

You guys out there. Um, but in regard to another doctrinal thing, do you hold to, and does the broader restoration movement hold to, um, the doctrine of original sin as Adam's guilt being imputed to all of his posterity?

Yes. So me personally, yes. Um, and, and I guess the way we would, um,

I want to say, I think some of your restoration folks are going to disagree that they don't. So, so yeah, everything that I say, like as independent is like, okay, like I can only speak for about, uh, you know, three to 400 folks, um, in Northern Ohio.

Uh, and so you're definitely going to find folks that are, that are on both sides of that for, for us.

And I would say like, I would say like a simple, if not like, like major majority, um,

I'll say probably like two thirds of folks, um, would definitely agree with some form of original sin, um, that's, that's passed, like some sort of like fall in human condition.

Yeah, I think, and that's where, you know, this is an interesting, you use the particular phrase fall in human condition.

Um, most people that I know, um, regardless of their denominational distinctives or their background would hold to something happened to humanity when

Adam fell. Right. Like, like, like something caused a problem. Um, I think we're the,

I think we're at least the guys I've run into restoration guys who I've talked to. The biggest issue they have is that we inherit guilt from that.

Oh, I see. That, that, that not that Adam's sin didn't affect us. I think we would all agree that has affected at least the world in general brought about thorns and thistles and sickness and disease.

You know, I would say that the, the, the, the fall brought about the three D's death, disease, and destruction. Right. Those are the things that come as a result of the fall.

None. I don't think anybody would disagree with me on that, but the is okay. Um, but, uh, but does the newborn child inherit the guilt of Adam?

Um, I mean, my, my tradition would say absolutely. Yes, that we, you know, we would do that unashamedly.

Yes. Even though it creates a lot of conflict, people who say we don't love our kids and people who say, you know,

God doesn't love our kids and things like that, because, you know, why is it their fault? They're inheriting the sin of Adam.

And we have to get into things like federal headship and all that. But the issue is, um, from your perspective, do you think that is something that is typically denied in, in, in the restoration movement?

I think it's something that's explained a little bit differently. Okay. Um, I don't think so.

I think that restoration, like in essence, most restoration folks will, um, would agree with like all of the implications.

Um, I think the way that we would just like restoration folks would describe it is more of, of there's guaranteed participation in, uh, the fallen state of humanity thereby, like, so like, it's not that like in terms of, in the, in the, like,

I guess we would, the distinction we make is like moment to moment, like sure, like, you know, as, as a baby enters the world, like, you know, like, you know, there's something that just comes in, uh, to that moment.

Um, but there is this sense of like, it's not a question of if it's a matter of when, and so because that like, when is hardwired into her, like she's got, like she bears just as much responsibility as I do.

Um, and so, um, I guess is that, is that. Yeah. It's where we're going.

So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, uh, in that sense, and again, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, you know, over parse your words, but I do want to just sort of nail it down a little bit tighter.

Do you think a person is born innocent and becomes a sinner when they sin?

That that's really, I think it. No, I don't think that's a, that's an accurate way of describing it.

Like, I think it's more of like, you're like, like, because of the propensity to sin and like that, it's not a matter of if it's a guaranteed win.

Um, like it's that that's part of the fallen condition. All right. Now here's a, here's a real good question.

And this is, this is something that we both have to deal with. Um, you know, regardless of our traditions, this is a, this is something

I think every pastor has to address, and that is the question of, do, do you think that there's a point where they're, regardless of their condition as sinners, because I would say they're born sinners, they're born in sin, they're guilty because of Adam sin.

But when do they, when do they functionally become guilty? Is it only when they understand their guilt?

And is there a particular time that you place on that? Like some people would say there's an age of accountability and, you know, some churches

I remember specifically, like, like in my mom's churches growing up, but my, my mom and stepmom, two different people, obviously my mom took me to the holiness church and at the holiness church, it was the, it was the age of 12, because that's when the

Jewish people would have their, you know, their bar mitzvah. That's when they become sons of God, that's what bar mitzvah means.

And so they believe that they're responsible to the law now at the age of 12. And so some people believe that that's a designated time.

Jesus was in the temple when he was 12 and they, they sort of mark it all. Like they come up with, they come up with conclusions that aren't from the text, but sort of, sort of, you know, sort of like, yeah, they're

Jason. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're textual adjacent. I like that. They're not exegesis, they're adjacent.

But so do you tell people in your church? Okay. Little, little Johnny is okay. But when he turns 12, he's not okay.

And I'm sure you don't, but I'm just saying, is that, you know? Yeah, no, that's yeah. So there's, there's certainly an age of like, like, like I'll say, like maybe responsibility is a better word than accountability.

Right. Because even, so my daughter is three right now, even at three, you know, like we're, we're my, my wife and I are constantly working with her of like, okay, why did you, you know, why did you throw your bowl of Froot Loops across the room, which you did last night?

And it's like, exactly. Exactly. So there's this like, there's this inherent, like we can identify, like even at that age, like there's this inherent, like self -interest of like, we, yeah, this is not good.

This is not what we want. And so like, but there's definitely an age where, where, you know, like we don't, we don't like, we're not going to baptize my three -year -old because we don't like feel like right now she can make an accurate profession of faith.

You know, she's got to get to a point where she understands the responsibility that she has to uphold, to walk in God's ways and to, to, to uphold that, uphold

God's standards. And so I think that that's part of the conversation, but there's definitely not like a sense of, well, you know, all's fair game until you're 12 until you're actually accountable to the law.

But I, so yeah, I guess, is that, is that, is that a helpful way of explaining?

Yep. Okay. So I have a few questions and I want to be fair to my, my friends on Twitter.

Cause I asked these questions. I say, Hey, what, what do you want me to ask this pastor, this brother? You know, what do you want me to ask him?

And people, boy, this is there's a bunch of them.

There, there, there, there are a lot. And so. I'm going to,

I'm going to nail it down to just a few because I don't want to, you know, monopolize your whole day.

And we have to keep this interview to at least a reasonable length. So we both got stuff to do.

Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. The first one of the questions is actually one we've already talked about. That's the original sin inheriting the guilt of Adam.

Um, uh, do you know, Dr. Jack Courtrell? I don't think

I do. Okay. All right. Well that they, they reference him, but we won't, we won't, we won't get to that. If it's not someone you're familiar with.

All right. Um, the second one is I think really a useful question is, is the no creed, but Christ or the restoration plea as they refer to it.

Sufficient to keep restoration movement churches from drifting into errors that most evangelical denominations are dealing with in our post -Christian culture.

So is, is, do you think basically if I could narrow the question down to that is a simpler question is, is having no creeds actually a detriment to the restoration movement?

I, I think it, it can be. Okay. Um, because it's like in, in, in essence, right.

It's, um, and that's where we're, I, you know, I talked, uh, you know, a little bit earlier of just like there, there's definitely this growing movement of how do we, um, recover a historical understanding, like a, like a historical understanding of where we are, how we got here and how we're moving forward.

Um, within the restoration movement, I think that's definitely becoming a trend. Um, but I don't think it's necessarily like means that like we can't be.

And so again, that's one, I guess one of the difficulties in, um, every church is autonomous, every church is it's so it's,

I really, I guess the, the, the, the most honest answer I can give to that question is it's very much up to the leadership of the individual church.

Um, and so it, it, it absolutely can be, um, a sense of, or like a, a, a way that like church is just like, like, okay, we don't have any other kind of binding, um, guiding influence, uh, than like our own hermeneutic.

Um, and so like, yep, we can kind of come up with all, all manner of things. Um, but it's not necessarily,

I guess that's not necessarily the reality. Okay. And this is where, you know, just from my tradition and my background and, and we all have traditions, people who say they have no traditions are usually the ones who are most bound by them, uh, quoting

James White there. Uh, but the, the reason why we would value creeds and confessions, and we do, uh, we, we actually recite creeds in our worship service.

We recite catechisms in our worship service. And the reason why we do is so one, we can have a connection to the historic church rather than being, you know, our own sort of by ourself on an

Island kind of thing, but the other thing is that we can say, you know, the church has already dealt with this issue.

So there's really no reason for us to have to re deal with it. So like, for instance, the doctrine of the

Trinity, when the Jehovah witness comes rap, rap, rapping on our chamber door, we can say to them, look, the church has already dealt with you.

We dealt with you 1700 years ago at the council of Nicaea. We told you you were wrong then you're still wrong today.

So you either need to repent or you're going to burn in the fires of hell because you believe in a wrong

Jesus. I mean, that may sound mean, but that's the answer we would give. Uh, maybe, maybe not in those words.

I might be a little kinder than that, but that is the answer is you have, you have denied the historic doctrine of who

God is, not just because it's what said in the Nicene creed, the Athanasian creed and all the others, but it's also, it's what the

Bible says. It's what the church has affirmed. The Bible says, um, would you affirm the

Trinity? I mean, is your church affirms the Trinity as stated in the creeds?

Yes. Yep. And so I should say like, no, no creed, I guess, like that, that doesn't mean that we don't make use of creeds.

Like, like we, so like in our, our church, we, like we define Orthodox Christianity, uh, via like Nicene and, and Apostle, um,

Apostle creeds in terms of like, you know, um, the nature of God, the, the hypostatic union, um, you know, like the, um, is that, is that unique though in the restoration movement, or would you say churches of Christ would, would do that would say we affirm, you know,

Nicene Orthodoxy and things like that. I would have to say no, but I don't know. I mean, I would say

I've, I've encountered church of Christ folks that, that don't do it that way that are definitely more,

I would say like, like Jesus only kind of folks, almost like modal in their, in, in, in essence, like they, they probably have some sort of faith statement about like the

God of the Bible, father, son, Holy spirit. Um, but in terms of like the actual practice, like end up being more modal, um, in their like understanding and in their teaching, but I would say by and large, that's not the, the trend, um, particularly,

I guess I'm, I'm around a lot more independent Christian, non -denominational Christian, uh, churches nowadays.

Um, and so like definitely in this stream, it like, nope, it's, it's full Trinitarian, Nicene, um,

Orthodoxy, um, is how we understand Orthodoxy as well. Okay. I, I, I, I, again,

I would be interested if there are people who are watching who are churches of Christ, who, who hold a different perspective.

Uh, please leave a comment if you do. And, um, you know, uh, maybe I can interact with you as well, but talking to the person, leaving the comment.

Um, but, but that, that's, that's something I would have thought was just like a big no, no, it was like, you know, we, we don't do that.

So, so I'm curious to hear other thoughts on that. Uh, the, um, the, here's another good question.

The Stone Campbell movement correctly defended Orthodox Christianity against Mormonism and Christadelphian cults in the 19th century.

This person really worded this question. Well, I just want you to know, um, this is disassociating with them.

Why won't they do the same with the 20th and 21st century discipling movement cults that spawned from the restoration movement, namely the international churches of Christ, Crossroads Boston movement, the international

Christian churches and the restored churches worldwide. If they, if they were willing to disassociate from false groups, then why won't they do it now?

That's the part of the question. So the, the easy answer to the heart of that question is there's like, there's nobody to make the, there is not a group, a, like a, a figure had a dominant person, um, to like make that, um, declaration.

We would, we would absolutely like, we absolutely distinguish ourselves from them, like individually as like churches and whatnot.

So like, I mean, even if you look at more, I would say like more prominent, um, restoration movement churches. And so, you know,

I'm thinking, um, you know, you've got like Southeast, you got Bob Russell ministries. Um, you've got, um, like Mark Moore, um, the

Christ Church of Valley out in Arizona. Um, you, you, you listen to their, like, like individually, those churches are going to be very, um, like very much against that sort of, of, um, not, not, not too familiar with, with, um,

I know that the Boston folks as a group, I guess of those listed, I'm, I'm more familiar with, um, but yeah, essentially like what, like with us not being a denomination without that, like hierarchy, there, there is no group to say like, this is like, this isn't orthodox restoration folks.

These guys aren't, um, that, that, that sort of torch like past with, with, uh, kind of the first few generations.

Um, and, um, yeah, there's not really anybody to take up that at this point. Do you think that's one of the, the, the problems of not being denominational is that,

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's no higher, I don't want to say hierarchy, but there's no organizational leadership.

That's definitely one of the, one of the tensions we, I would say like, like, I guess I described as like, you know, there's, there's strengths and our tensions that we just have to like deal with, come to terms with, and that's definitely one of the tensions of like, yep, like we're not able to just say like, like we don't have a national group that can just say, yep, these guys are out for this reason, even though like all of, you know, if you talk to, so, you know, in our area, there's, um, one, two, three, there's, there's four big restoration that like we, we do a lot with, um, and all four of those churches would say of those groups, like, nope, they're, they're, they're off in left field doing who knows what, but they're definitely not, um, you know, like, like I said, like going back to like the heart of the movement, they're not submitting to the truth of God's word.

Um, they're not, uh, promoting the unity of the church. So therefore by definition, they're not restoration movement.

Like, so you'd hear that message individually within the churches. Um, but there's just no national group to say that.

Yeah. And so, so like theoretically it could be that you be in a town where you've got two independent

Christian churches and one would say, they're not like us. They're not that you, they may claim to be like us.

They may claim to be part of the same movement, but they're not really us. You know? Okay. I mean, and you know, that, that's, that, that's a, that happens.

I mean, there are people that call themselves Baptist. I would say they're not historically Baptist. Um, they don't hold to Baptist distinctives or Baptist theology, but they are, they're

Baptist, I guess, because they baptize believers. That's not the only thing that makes you a Baptist. Yeah, exactly. And I'm thinking of like, you know, like, like, you know, someplace like Charlotte, like, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's several

Baptist churches that would look at, at like elevations and like, okay, you know, yeah, they're not Baptist. They're far more charismatic.

Yeah. That's a good example. Yeah. Furtick went to Southern seminary, which is the, which is amazing when people hear that, but he did

Furtick's a Southern grad. Okay. This is a good question here.

Uh, this is, um, from somebody who is disciples of Christ. So I thought this was, and by the way,

I want to say right away, I have over 45 questions that came in on Twitter and another dozen or so that came in through Facebook, so we are not getting to everybody's question.

I'm sorry, but thank you for, thank you for your questions. And I've tried to,

I've tried to, on this episode, this is to the audience. I've tried to give a swath of the various,

I know the big issues were baptism, creeds. We've covered that, talked about that, but this is a good, like kind of practical ministry question.

This person says I'm disciple of Christ. I'd like to know if, if you, uh,

John find it frustrating when you look and see disciples of Christ members and even churches that are more concerned with what they feel the

Bible should say, instead of studying the Bible to know what it does say on particular topics. We're sometimes so accommodating and diversity of opinion that we forget to actually say no to some of the things that are obviously wrong.

Now I know you're not disciples, but you, I'm sure you rub elbows with disciples. Right? Oh, Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. And that's, that's a great, I know. So for, even for me personally, like I am naturally like I'm a huge people pleaser.

Like I hate disappointing anybody. And so I know that was, that was like definitely a big hurdle. Um, as I like entered the ministry of,

Oh, Hey, I'm just going to love you to Jesus. I'm going to love you to Jesus. I'm going to love you to Jesus. Um, but then learning how to like, you know, part of, um, you know, even a lot of the conversations

I participate in now, you know, even with like number of the cultural issues, it's like, you know, the response is, well, why can't we just love people?

And my response now is like, well, love has to love is only effectual. If it means what

Jesus meant, uh, when he's, when he loved people. And so that meant, um, confronting like the, the love of Jesus is, is worked out when he says, you know, like starts off his ministry and Mark repents.

Um, and for the kingdom of God is near. Um, and so like, that's the, that's the heart of love it just as much as, um, you know, like first Corinthians 13, um, and anything we see there.

Um, and so that's definitely something like for me personally is on a practical level, um, that we're always growing in because nobody likes to have hard conversations, um, like, you know, and you have to like, okay,

Hey, we got to deal with the junk. Um, but that's, you know, that's the reality of the work that we're called into of helping people understand that the, the, the gravity of, of the sin they're walking in.

And it's like, no, it's not, it's not, it's, it's not just something we can, we can push onto the rug.

We got to deal with this. Um, and we got to look at it the way that Jesus looks at it and, uh, address it in this, with the same fervor, the same manner.

Yeah. I think there's so much of an accommodation in, in the disciples of Christ church for, for just things that are, are, are demonstratively biblically untrue, you know, uh,

I remember, um, John Dominic Crossland came to Jacksonville, uh, and he's a, he's a higher critic of scripture.

He believes that, you know, believes a lot of crazy things about the Bible and about Jesus, uh, believes

Jesus didn't rise from the grave, believes he didn't do miracles, things like that. And he was being hosted when he came to town to give a seminar and guess what church hosted him, the disciples of Christ church.

Yeah. And so it just ended indicative of that and, um, and sort of where they're at.

Theologically, uh, one person wanted you to opine on the sinner's prayer. So I'm gonna give you an opportunity to just give your thoughts, you know, because obviously, um, this may be an area we agree, but, but, but like disagree on why, but like we agree on like, like, okay.

So your thoughts, when you hear somebody say sinner's prayer or, you know, what you think this person might be asking when they say to ask you about that.

Yeah. So, I mean, so I guess, I don't know if I'm the best, cause like being a church kid,

I like, honestly, like my response and even like growing up with, you know, with, um, like my, my personal take is like a lot of, of, you know, somebody that like responds with the sinner's prayer and, you know, people who like, especially like, you know, uh, preachers like, you know, like raise your hand and pray this prayer with me.

You're you're like, I'm a little bit skeptical of that, of that myself. Uh, just because like, it's, it's,

I guess the personal conviction is that can often be something that's just too much, too easy of an out, um, then like the, the actual, like the actual call of Jesus is not to like pray.

It's like, it's, it's to discipleship it's to follow. And so it's not just repent.

I mean, turn around, but it's repent is not just turn around, but it's, it's moving a different direction.

Um, and so I know in, in various, especially like restoration traditions, it's like, this is just the moment we're going for, right?

Like we just want to get people to realize like, yep. Like, like I'm a sinner. I need grace. Jesus saved me.

Like, yes, absolutely. That's step one of a, of a much longer journey. And so we cannot stop at that first step.

Gotcha. Where, where I would take, you know, cause, cause I've, I have my own issues with the sinner's prayer where I have the issue primarily is,

I guess it's similar to what you said in that. And that is the idea that, um, we've replaced, we've replaced the biblical idea of faith with this action of, of repeat this prayer after me.

And it also becomes like a mantra or almost like, like, um, you know, even in Islam, they have a prayer that you pray to become a

Muslim and that, you know, and sort of like adopting this sort of almost unbiblical practice of, well, this is, you become a

Christian by doing this thing by becoming, by saying these words or, or, or repeating these words.

And, um, I do, again, I, I hold a high, high view. I believe a high view of baptism. Obviously people would disagree.

I believe baptism is our sign of entrance into the new covenant. And it is a, it is a command is something we must obey.

Um, and, and I think when, when, when, what has happened, I think in a lot of churches is they've said, okay, the sign of entrance into the, into the faith is not baptism, but at the sign of entrance into the faith is, is this prayer.

To raise your hand essentially. Yeah, maybe not even one. Yeah, I'll say the prayer, sign the card. When neither one, I think is, is what actually enters us into the kingdom.

I think we are entered into the kingdom by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. And that occurs when the

Holy Spirit of God opens our heart to believe, regenerates us and gives us new life. Those are the things

I would say happen, uh, prior to baptism. And this is where I would, there would be some who would disagree and say that happens in baptism.

And that would be the distinction. But, um, but yeah, that's my issue with the sinner's prayers.

It replaces biblical categories of faith, repentance, baptism with a, with this additional thing.

And some people would say, well, this is just the, you know, faith that, you know, how do you express your faith? You express it through prayer. So I understand those who argue for it, but I definitely take,

I definitely take an issue, uh, with those who would say, well, just pray this prayer and you're saved and then, you know, no call for repentance or, you know, following.

It's not, it's not a bad prayer. It's a great prayer. It's just a bad place to stop. Um, so it's like, well, absolutely.

Like let's, let's keep moving down this, this, this path. Yeah. Well, let me, let me do this.

I'm going to leave with, with, with one last one, because I know we're, we're out of time, way out of time actually.

And, and, and so I want to, I don't want to keep you any longer. Well, Hey, if you ever want to like chat more and get back to some of these questions, like, yeah, and there may be a followup that people want to do.

I have a feeling there's, there's, um, going to be those who want, you know, maybe a church of Christ, somebody may want to come on and maybe at some point

I'll do that, but certainly enjoyed talking with you, may, may have you on the future to discuss some other things.

This is, this is how these work. These bow tie dialogues work this way. Love it.

Uh, just conversational. So last question, and this is where I think may, may, may show a big distinction.

I don't know. If I were to ask you, John, uh, okay, here's, here's a young person. They've just come into the church.

They've never heard the gospel. How do you explain the gospel to them? Uh, the gospel.

So I guess we've kind of worked through, uh, creation, um, creation, fall, um,

God restoring, uh, through coming as a man, uh, through the incarnation, death, resurrection, um, and then invitation into new life.

Okay. All right. So that's, but you would explain what each of those things means. That's, that's, that's a, that's obviously, that's a 32nd.

How did they, how did, what would you say to them in regard to, and, and therefore you, you should do this.

Therefore, like next step is like, is as you respond to the gospel, um, instead of number one, they like to surrender your life to Jesus, to claim him as your savior, to claim him as your

Lord, um, to be baptized. Um, and then to part did then to enter into the family of God in the local church.

Okay. All right. All right, my friend. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate your answer.

And, um, so I want to, again, thank you for you. You reached out to me through the

Friday night live. You did this at a moment's notice and anybody who may come in later and have, you know, well,

I wish, I wish you to talk about this. I wish you'd talk about that. We did this quickly because I quickly came to know you, liked talking with you and said,

Hey, this is a guy I think we can have a good conversation with. And people who disagree and say, oh, well, he didn't represent my, my side or the other side.

It's a broad spectrum. Restoration churches are not monolithic. That's part of the movement is that they're, you know, they're independent and not monolithic.

So like I said, the only, the only place in America that I can guarantee you'll hear, like what

I just said is if you come to the first Christian church in Huber Heights, Ohio, other than that, like I can guarantee you, like if you're at a, even if you're at a restoration, there's a restoration church about five miles down the road from us, you're going to hear things explained a little bit differently than even how we would explain it.

But again, that's, yeah, like I said, that's, that's part of the movement. Now, are you in North Ohio or South Ohio?

Southwest central. So we're about an hour North of Cincinnati on the North side of Dayton. Well, I'm going to be in Ohio in three, four weeks.

I'm going to be there. But I don't remember the Oklahoma, Oklahoma, Ohio, or I forget how to say it, but it's, it's it's near,

I've got to fly in to Detroit, which I'm actually not looking forward to that and drive over to.

So more problem, more Toledo area. Yes. Yeah. Right around there. How far is that from you? Oh, it's a couple hours, but Hey man,

I'm down to get a coffee. You want to meet up, but I'll be there for the dangerous friends conference.

I mentioned this in the introduction. Uh, anybody who wants to, uh, come visit out the

Michael Foster be there. Rosario Butterfield will be there. I'll be there. A bunch of other people be there. So, uh, come check it out.

All right. Yes, sir. All right, John. Thank you so much for being on your Calvinist podcast day.

I really appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Keith can look forward to how, uh, how conversation grows.

Absolutely. And guys, I want to thank you again for watching the show and being a part today. Hopefully this was encouraging and educational for you.

And I know you probably have more questions that you'd like for us to answer in the future. So if you have questions, send them in and I'll either answer them on a

Friday night live, or maybe even put a whole podcast together, depending on the, the, the length and weight of the question.

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