Bow Tie Dialogue: The Restoration Movement

You see what I'm wearing, so you know what today is.

That's right.

It's another Bowtie Dialogue here on Your Calvinist Podcast, and it begins right now.

Welcome

back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist.

Today we're going to be doing our segment called Bowtie Dialogues.

This is when I throw on my bowtie and interview someone from another denomination.

Today's denomination is actually the Restoration Movement, out of which came the Churches of

Christ, the Independent Christian Church, and the Disciples of Christ, which many of you may know, I actually

grew up in a Disciples of Christ church.

So we're going to be talking about several things today, things from history, things from the past.

We're going to be talking to my guest about how he arrived at the conclusions he came to, why he holds the doctrines that he does, and what scripture verses

he would cite to defend his positions.

This is not a debate.

It's just a jovial and friendly conversation, so I hope you enjoy it.

But before we go any further, I want to remind you that this podcast is a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church.

So if you're in the Jacksonville, Florida area, please visit us at sgfcjax .org.

Also please keep in mind that I'll be at the Dangerous Friends Conference that's coming up in March.

If you're interested in going to that conference, you can go to the website in the description and please use my

coupon code, YOURCALVINIS25, for a discount.

All right, before we bring our guest in, I want to remind you of our partners, and then we'll start the show.

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Now let's get back to the podcast.

All right, guys, we're ready to bring in our guest.

My guest today is a pastor in the Independent Christian Church.

His name is John Striffler, and he has been a pastor.

He's been in ministry for 16 years, and he's been in the current church that he is pastoring for the last four years.

John, thank you for being a part of Bowtie Dialogues today.

I appreciate it.

Yes, sir.

Howdy, howdy.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yeah, looking forward to it.

Absolutely.

And I'm so glad that you won, that you were willing to do this on very short notice.

But I want to tell the audience kind of how we met because it was interesting how this all

came about.

As many people know, I do a Friday night live with my wife where we come in and we just answer

questions that people send in through our email bag.

And if anybody wants to participate in that, they can go to kiefoski .com and just send me an email.

And I was talking about one of the questions that came in was, can you explain the restoration movement?

And I said, well, I can, I can do my best.

I grew up in a Disciples of Christ church, which came out of the restoration movement.

So as I was talking about it, you were interacting with the comments.

So apparently you were watching, I don't know how you came to know our show, but you were, you were there.

Yeah, it just popped up for me.

And I came in maybe, maybe like 30 seconds before you started answering that

question.

And it was like, oh, hey, restoration movement, that's, that's right in my wheelhouse.

Yeah.

And it was just interesting because you and I were commenting back and forth and I was like, well, am I, you know, you're,

you're, you're a pastor in that movement.

So am I getting this right?

And you were saying, well, generally, yeah, we're, we're in agreement with what I was saying, at least how I was, how I was describing everything.

And so that led to a further conversation between you and I, I said, hey, if you ever, you know, want to talk more about this, send me an email.

You did.

We've talked for the last few days.

And so I said, well, why don't we just do a bow tie dialogue?

I try to do one of these about once a month where I'll bring in a representative from another denomination or

another movement and I'll let them simply tell about what they believe and why they believe it.

Even if we disagree, as I said, as I, as I say, these are not debates.

This is just an opportunity to hear from someone who believes it's, it's, it's one thing for me to tell people, well, this is what this person believes, or this

is what that person believes.

But to hear somebody actually say what they believe, that's, that's very helpful for the audience.

Yeah.

So for the sake of those who might say, and I think this is one of the probably the

only maybe real criticisms we may get, somebody might say, well,

okay, well, John is independent Christian church.

That's not Church of Christ.

That's not what we believe.

So can you for just a moment as we begin, can you give a little bit of a breakdown of the

distinctions within the restoration movement?

And from what I understand, there's sort of the Church of Christ, Independent Christian Church and the Disciples of Christ, and I know there's more, but

I, but, but can you kind of explain how those function and kind of who's who?

Yeah.

So I guess, so obviously we're going to be speaking kind of just in generalities.

Like, so the unique thing I think about restoration movement churches is if you, if you talk to

like three different restoration movement pastors, even three, like you get three different stories.

And so, you know, one of the hallmarks of kind of our tradition is that the local church

is completely autonomous.

Like there's, there's, you know, there's, I often think of like, like the Southern Baptists, you know, talk about, you

know, it's friendly or not a denomination or friendly, it's friendly cooperation between like -minded churches.

And for us restoration folks, it's like, yes, like that, that's great.

But then you went ahead and made a convention on that.

And so what's going on there?

You know, there's some questions there.

But, but yeah, essentially the distinction, I guess, would, would come from more

like there's a very, we'll say like liberal wing of the restoration movement.

That would be the disciples of Christ.

They kind of broke away because the heart of the restoration movement is kind of this idea that we're

not the, what we say is that we're not the only Christians.

And so like, there's not an exclusive, this claim of like, you know, only restoration movement churches are true

Christian churches.

But we want to be known as Christians only.

So like denomination, denominational affiliations, like that's just more of like historically

is should have just that gets in the way of what we're trying to do as a church community.

And so disciples of Christ, the short, short story is that that group kind of formed

more of a, a like an official denomination, which sort of ran against and

ran in tension with the heart of the restoration movement to begin with.

And so there was a split between them and the churches of Christ that were more of, we'll say, like I had a

fundamentalist bend, very conservative bend in a lot of their theology and

practice.

And then out of the disciples of Christ, as the, as that, as that group continued to

get more and more liberal in their, their approach to social matters, their approach to even like,

you know, convictions about scripture or the resurrection, those sort of things.

There was another group that then broke away from them, the independent Christian churches, who said like, hey, like,

we're not all the way in sort of the fundamentalist camp that like a church of Christ

would typically would historically kind of be in.

But we're also not on board with kind of the liberal direction that the disciples of Christ are

going.

We want to be, we just want to be like faithful, a faithful Christian church in our local

community.

And so that's in a nutshell kind of how the distinctions came about.

Sure.

And that's kind of goes along with what I, what my thoughts were, right?

You have the, you have the far conservative church of Christ, the far liberal disciples of Christ, and

then the independent Christian church, which you might not say middle of the road, but they certainly try to split the difference.

And was it you who mentioned the, the, the unity and truth?

Was that you who, can you explain that?

Yeah.

So, so the, the like stone, so, you know, I know Stone Campbell, that kind of movement,

that agreement from Barton Stone and Thomas and Alexander Campbell way back in the day coming out of the,

the second great awakening kind of their, their, their two big

emphases was like, it was a, first off a commitment to truth.

So that would be like a commitment to the, the inspiration and authority of the word of God.

And then a commitment to unity that the, that the quote from Campbell is that the church of

Christ on the earth is, I'm going to butcher it, but it's, it's, it's foundationally, constitutionally

and essentially one on the, on the earth.

And so those are the two kind of like, well, there's not necessarily like creedal statements and creedal convictions

within the restoration movement.

Like those are the, the, the two kind of guiding principles really with it also with

the added or like an emphasis on evangelism or doing all of this to reach the world for Christ.

Sure.

And I mentioned this being a part of the, the disciples.

When I was growing up, I mentioned that to you, right?

Yeah.

That our church, actually the church I pastor, cause I, I, I, I, I'm pastoring the church I grew up in,

but we're, we, we left the disciples in 99 and I have proof of.

That.

I've actually brought it today.

This is the Forest Christian Church mug that we had and Forest

Christian Church was Forest Christian Church disciples of Christ.

And so if you're, if you're in a town, this is for the audience sake, I know you know this, John, but if you're in a town where you see a

church that has a chalice with an X on it, that's the symbol for the disciples of Christ.

That's the St. Andrew's cross is the X cross and it's inside of a chalice.

Well, that's the disciples of Christ.

And that is the liberal wing of the, of the restoration movement.

They held some of the same doctrinal beliefs.

And we're going to talk about those in a bit, doctrinal beliefs on baptism, doctrinal beliefs on how someone saved and what, you know,

how those things are constituted, but regarding the social issues, they were all over the

map.

Now, the church I grew up in was socially conservative, but it was socially conservative in a liberal

denomination, which is why we left the denomination in 99.

I mean, we, like many people leave other denominations that go crazy.

Our church saw what was happening.

The last national convention we went to, our pastor, the former pastor, my predecessor, the

last national convention we went to with the disciples of Christ was woke 24 or 20

years before anybody knew what woke was.

They had, um, they were giving out condoms.

They had like stands giving out condoms and they were endorsing abortion.

They were endorsing homosexual marriage and, and, and, and even homosexual clergy in

the nineties.

I mean, this is like, like, yeah.

I know.

So I, I, um, I'm a bit of a hodgepodge too, in my, my train.

So I, you know, I grew up, actually grew up in a restoration movement church without even realizing it was restoration movement.

Um, went to school at a, uh, at Anderson university.

So church of God Anderson school.

Um, so like the, the non -charismatic version of the church of God.

Um, and then I did graduate work out at Fuller, um, in California.

Uh, but I, I do, I just, so you talked about this idea of like your restoration movement, it's kind of hard.

Don't you don't like the denominational videos you do, how do we include those and whatnot?

And so, yeah, the, the, the, the, the restoration movement folks would be the ones always like, you know, holding up the, uh,

holding up the, the, the book here and being like, I don't, I don't see that in here.

Where do you, where do you even get that in here?

Um, and so yeah, it's like the disciples of Christ.

That's a, that's an interesting like turn of like, where did that come from?

Yeah, it just seems so odd to me to, to come out of that movement.

That is a, uh, ostensibly supposed to be focused on what, what the Bible says.

And as you said, holding the Bible as the authority, and we're going to talk about that in a little while about how we differ on some things,

but yeah, you and I both, I think would say we have to go to the word of God, that's our authority.

Um, and, and, and so it's interesting to see a movement grow so far away, but,

but as you mentioned, and this is, this is an interesting distinction, the stone Campbellite

sort of desire was to not be denominational and yet the disciples of

Christ became one of the seven mainline denominations.

You know, people often realize that.

Yeah.

And that was, that was, that was really, that was one of the things that the, like it was the, you know, the liberal trajectory,

but then it was also the organization of an official hierarchy.

Um, that initially, um, was it once after the church of Christ, disciples of Christ, but like the real, like the,

the, the, the, where the rubber hit the road for then independent Christian churches was like, well, Hey, you

like the whole point of our movement is that we're not supposed to organize under a hierarchy, under a denomination.

Um, but you guys have gone and done just that.

So like, we, we just, we can't be a part of that anymore.

Yeah.

When we left there was actually a threatening of, you know, us losing our property and things, which is what happens

in like Methodist churches, which is why there's such a, a difficulty sometimes.

Uh, and if I'm mistaken on this Methodist, feel free to correct me in the comments.

From what I understand when Methodists leave the denomination because of the liberalism, you know, United Methodist Church,

there's, there's sometimes a, a problem with the fact that the, the, the congregation doesn't own their

property.

It's owned by the denomination.

And we, we had a similar issue, but by God's grace, we were able to overcome that and not lose everything that

had been built up until that point.

So we remained a church, remained, kept our property, but we were able to leave the denomination in 99.

And at that point, I would say from 99 to oh six, when I became the pastor,

it was probably about as close to an independent Christian church without the name,

we didn't call ourselves independent Christian church, but the, my former pastor was, was

restoration.

He had gone to Johnson Bible college.

Have you ever heard of that?

Oh yeah.

100%.

Okay.

And that's where, that's where we send our Johnson university now, but like our student ministry goes there for a CIY,

the Christ in youth is the, the kind of the, the, the teen, the middle school and high school

summer programs around the country for restoration movement or the rest, or I should say with the restoration

movement flair.

And so that's where we send our students.

So yeah, Johnson's, Johnson's a good school.

Yeah.

Well, it's, it's, it is a restoration theology school, right?

That's why you're sending your kids there in the same way.

Like, you know, someone from, from, you know, my church, we would send somebody maybe to Southern theological

Southern Baptist theological seminary, because even though we don't agree with everything, they're theologically in line with us, Johnson

would be theologically in line with you guys.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um, well let's talk about then, uh, some of those theological distinctions, because I think

those are going to be really an important part of our conversation.

Um, but before, before we do that, um, I just, I meant to do this earlier and I, and I just

sort of jumped right into the conversation.

Can you tell us sort of your ministerial background?

So you're asking, well, who's John and what's he done?

I know I said you were in ministry for six years, you've been the pastor for the last four years.

And somebody even had a question about you having that title pastor, because apparently that's not something that's.

Yeah, it varies church to church.

I've, I've been in, you know, in, uh, yeah, I get this a little bit here too, but, you know, I've been in ministries where, you know, it was very much, don't

call me a pastor, I'm a minister.

Um, like that was an important distinction.

Um, so that, that, what I would say is more, that's more what you find in like church of Christ, um,

spheres and church of Christ ministries.

Um, but yeah, that's absolutely a, that's a conversation that happens regularly, um, in our, in our, uh, stream.

Uh, but yeah, my, my story, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a pastor's kid.

Uh, my dad was a, he's a worship pastor for, uh, 20 ish years before he moved into,

um, like the business, um, and whatnot.

I was around for the last 14 of those years.

Um, so, uh, it was one of those things where I, I mentioned just briefly before, like I, I actually

grew up in the restoration movement and didn't even realize I had grown up in the restoration movement, um,

until, um, actually like going through like my, my studies at Anderson and then Fuller.

And then I was like, Oh, Hey, yeah, we, we, we were the whole time.

And so again, like a big hallmark of our, our, kind of our stream and our tradition is, um,

we're like, we're like, so we're, we're not, we're not the only Christians, but we want to be known as Christians only not restoration movement folks,

we're just Christians.

And so that was the church.

Those were the churches that I grew up in.

Um, bounced around, uh, kind of all over the, the Eastern Midwest.

Um, so originally from Indianapolis, um, big restoration movement hub, um, a bunch of,

of, uh, churches there, um, did student ministry and whatnot.

It was one of the reasons I actually decided I went to Purdue for a couple of years, tried engineering.

Uh, that was just not my cup of tea.

Um, and, uh, so actually went to Anderson because I was serving as a student ministry intern and Anderson

was the closest school, uh, to that so that I could continue both working at a church and, uh, preparing

for a career in ministry, um, then, yeah, I was up in Michigan for about a decade working with, uh, Christian

camps during the summer, uh, some college ministry and some, um, uh, some church plants, uh, in

there.

And then, uh, my wife and I moved down here to, uh, we're in Huber Heights, which is just on the North side of Dayton,

Ohio, um, to, uh, first Christian church, uh, in Huber Heights, um, where I serve as the, as

a connections pastor here, uh, Rob Sweeney is the other, uh, pastor here.

He's our lead pastor.

I, I help him kind of, however he needs me, um, do a lot with our discipleship and our groups

and teach and all that.

Um, and yeah, it's just been, it's been a, it's been a blast.

It's been a wild ride, but, uh, it's been, been, been a good time.

How did he feel about you coming on a Calvinist podcast or did you tell him?

Well, see the, the, the, the other kind of, so I feel like with like restoration folks, like we are, we're the, the

king of kind of like catchphrases, right?

We don't, we don't do creeds.

We don't do, but we, we have a catchphrase for everything.

Um, and so like, you know, one of the, the, um, the kind of the, the phrases that's kind of

attached to our movement historically is this idea that like where, where the scripture speak, we speak, uh, where the

scripture silent, we're silent, um, and there's all kinds of conversation about like, what does that mean, but really essentially what,

for, for us here, uh, what that means is that, um, like, Hey, where the scripture is clear, that's what we're

going to, we're going to like, we're going to be clear, um, in our teaching.

Um, but where there's, there's freedom, uh, where the scripture doesn't give explicit destructions or instructions rather,

um, we are, um, we're free to investigate, um, and, uh, and kind of explore, uh,

the, the whole, uh, magnitude of what God has revealed and what God is doing, uh, in the world.

Um, and so like, like I would actually probably consider myself, uh, more of a Calvinist now,

uh, than when I, uh, started my, uh, my, so, I mean, I'm on this slow journey, who knows where this is going to end.

Um, but, uh, yeah, so.

Well, you heard it here, folks.

We'll see where he's at in five years.

I have many friends that I call my not yet.

Calvin.

Actually I have one specific friend.

I call my not yet Calvinist friend, but, uh, maybe you'll be another one.

There you go.

Well, with that, um, speaking of theological distinctions, theological convictions

that are, that are within the restoration movement, there are a, uh, there's a lot of things that

I think would divide the typical restoration theological

position from my own beliefs and convictions.

Um, and as I understand the history of at least

the Campbellite side.

And I, and again, I'm not saying that derogatory or derisive.

Some people don't want, like you said, they don't want to be called anything but Christian.

So when you say Campbellite, they take that as a shot or they, you know, if you say restoration, that as an attack, that's not, that's

not my intention.

I'm just saying, okay, those who, those who were, uh, birthed

out of the Campbell stone and there's also in there, Walter Scott is in there as well.

You know, um, so you've got two Campbell's Alexander and Thomas, you got Barton stone.

You've got the, uh, what I used to say, I think Willard Scott, like I told

that he's 105 years old today, uh, for those who are as old as me and understand that joke, but, um,

so you got Walter Scott, but, um, I have a friend on Twitter, he is restoration movement.

And he argues that it goes, that the history of the restoration movement or the history of this theology

is actually predates all of those men and goes back way into history and, and he would actually

see, I guess, a historical line.

I don't want to misrepresent his position.

He's, he's a, he's a nice fellow and we talk online a lot.

Um, so, so from your perspective, do you see maybe the,

the, the movement in America beginning with that?

Cause he talks about stuff that happened in Europe and things that I'm aware of.

So what, what is your knowledge of the history of the movement?

And if it's not, if you don't know, it's, it's fine.

If you, yeah, I can, I can, I can share what you get in my, you know, what, what I've kind of like come to and just my understanding

where I'm at.

So, um, you know, especially in, um, like from the, the, the American experience, I know there's like,

cause the, one of the, the core, um, purposes, I guess, of this, this movement as it was

launched, you know, coming out of the second great awakening and kind of like the revival culture, um, of the second

great awakening, um, is this idea of reforming the church,

um, like as a whole, like capital C, the, the, not the Roman Catholic, but just the Catholic variety.

Um, with a restored emphasis on early Christian practice, um, you know, the

idea, and so that's, that's where like, not that creeds are bad in and of themselves, but like the, the, the conviction was

that, that, that a lot of these, um, can distract from, um, the, like, we'll say

like the true essence that we see, um, in like the acts is the, the, the, the apostles are first

building the church.

Um, so there's just this conviction of these early leaders, um, of like, how do we, how do we, how do we

recover and experience the, the, like, you know, the church in 1810, 1820, uh, the

same experience they had in the thirties and forties as they were first, um, experiencing,

um, like, you know, this, this, the, the, the, the resurrection and how that changes, uh, the way the spiritual community functions.

And so from a, from the get -go, um, here, like on, on our side of the pond, um, like the, the

restoration movement is a hodgepodge, right, of all bunch of different stuff, right?

There's, there's, uh, certainly there's Presbyterian and Anglican influence.

Like that's where, uh, like, like Campbell and even, I think I'm pretty sure, uh, Barton Scott came out of, uh,

an Anglican tradition.

Um, but then there's also like, they're heavily, they're, they're Presbyterians and Anglicans, but they're heavily influenced by Scottish

Baptists.

Um, and that's also, it's also about the time that like the Wesleyan, the holiness traditions are kind of picking up

around the same area, um, you know, the Ohio, Indiana, um, area.

And so those groups start to intermix and, and kind of like communicate and, or, and, and kind of build off each other a

little bit.

So it's a hodgepodge of all these different traditions coming together.

Um, and again, like, I think that the, kind of the, the, the marks of that kind of that first, uh, the initial

community are just, again, like highly skeptical of anything that's creating a division.

And so not that we reject denominations as like, well, there shouldn't be denominations.

Like, no, we're, we're very much in this position of like denominations display, uh, the, the, the

multifaceted grace, uh, of God, you know, how God continues to use people in all circumstances,

uh, in all walks of life, uh, to, uh, reveal his glory, reveal the magnitude of what he's

done in Jesus.

Uh, but skeptical of, of denominational issues that end up leading

to tension and conflict.

Um, and so, um, yeah, I think that's, that's, is that kind of like, as

my train of thought, like, I think that's, that's where the, that's where the next train of thought station is.

I gotcha.

Um, the, the, the, one of the big things that I remember in reading and, and, and studying some of the history

of the stone camel movement was the idea, the idea of the word restoration was that

they were restoring the ancient gospel and the idea of restoring something that

had been, that had been lost.

And, and there are those who would say that the, that the gospel had been lost.

Um, where do you see that in regard to how they understood what they were doing

and how they understood sort of their relationship to other churches and perhaps

church in general?

Yeah.

I'm so I, I, there's, there's certainly like, and I think you definitely get that in, we'll say some, maybe some more

fundamentalist, um, circles of like this.

Idea.

So, I mean, I, I know I've, I've worked with, with folks, um, who like, who've, you know, fully are fully

convinced that, you know, unless you're baptized in a church of Christ, you're like, it's not a valid baptism.

Um, and so like, there's certainly, there's certainly that like tradition of thought, um, in the

movement.

But again, one of the, one of the, the, the kind of the difficult things is just kind of like nailing down

where exactly the, the, the, the, the movement, the stream as a whole actually stands.

And so like, for instance, I would say, especially you get more, um, I'm trying to think of, um,

so it's not Lipscomb.

It's the other.

So, um, David Lipscomb, um, out of Nashville, um, was one

of the other kind of the next generation, the second generation, um, restoration folks.

And I thought, was it Meeker that he was, he went back and forth with in Texas.

Um, but it's this idea of, it's a very similar, um, uh, message from like the Reformation,

right?

Not that the gospel had been lost, but that it had been covered up, um, by

like, we'll say, well, you know, the history of man, I think is, is one of the, the, the quotes that, that Meeker,

uh, kind of writes back to him.

Um, and so it's kind of this distinction of where have we added things to where it's now a distraction,

uh, from, uh, people encountering Jesus and, and making decisions, um,

and like, where, where can we recover, uh, that in our worship and in our practice?

Yeah.

And this, it's interesting, you mentioned the Reformation because that is, sometimes that is a accusation

leveled against the Reformers that they were saying, you know, that we, that some would say, well, the gospel had been lost

for a thousand years.

Well, we w we would say that the gospel had been shrouded during, particularly, uh,

in, within the medieval period that had been, it had been shrouded in mysticism and shrouded in

misunderstanding and hidden because the word of God was not, um, being taught and people were not

being, uh, instructed in, in the truths of the word.

And one of the, one of the main goals of the Reformation was to get the word of God into the hands of the people so that they

could actually hear and read what God had to say.

And so in that regard, there, there, you know, we're not saying the gospel wasn't there.

We're saying that the, the, the gospel was, was shrouded in and unclear.

Um, but, but you're saying there are those that would say that

unless you're part of this group, which is the, I guess the churches of Christ, the very fundamental churches of Christ, then

you're not saved.

Yeah.

Yep.

And, and there's, there's, there's people, you know, there are people in the independent fundamentalist church who say that.

There are some people who say, if you're not a Baptist, you're not going to heaven.

If you're not, you know, if you're not this, you're not going to heaven.

So you're certainly not, uh, not unique in that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, there's, I mean, and to, to kind of like the, so the restoration movement, right.

It's like a, like a hot, like it's also just like a catch all for, for, I think for a number of like

streams and groups that don't fit neatly or like as neatly within other.

So like, for instance, like if you look, just look up restoration movements, uh, they'll throw in groups like,

uh, Jehovah's witnesses and Latter -day Saints in restoration movement.

Whereas like, like, like, no, we would, we would not, we would not say those, those groups are, are because they're

rejecting the very heart of the movement that like, no, we're submitted to the word of God.

Um, and so, um, that it's like the, the, the, the, the, like, so if you don't have the truth, the word of

God, you can't pot, you can't have, uh, you can't have unity.

Um, and so, yeah.

Well, let's talk, I want to walk through if it's okay with you.

I want to walk through some doctrinal distinctions and, and, and, and

ask you if you just sort of like, how do you understand these things and how maybe they're understood in the churches of Christ?

And we know how they're understood in the disciples of Christ.

But, but like, like, um, one is I remember growing up being taught that

salvation was a fivefold idea.

Do you, have you heard what the five things are and how, and can you explain.

That to us a little, I mean, it's been a while since I've, since I've heard the five fold, so, I mean, I, I, I

vaguely remember also, I are like hearing something similar growing up, but I, I

remember it had to do with, uh, I think.

It was hearing, believing, being baptized and then something to do with obedience and

perseverance.

I think I, I, and I'm wrong about that.

Whoever knows the five fold.

I remember being taught on my fingers, like you had to hear, you had to confess, you had to believe you had to be baptized.

Maybe that's it.

You had to hear, confess, believe, baptize, and then you had to persevere,

right?

Like, like you had to be, um, and, and, and that's an interesting, I just

remember as a kid, you know, like we're going to, you know, we're going to say this together, Patsy Hoffman taught it to me.

I remember my Sunday school teacher, you know, um, you know, but it was, but, but the key one,

obviously in there was the baptism and, and, and I remember the reading

the Stone Campbell, some of their writings as, you know, cause again, I grew up in this church, so, you know, even though,

even though there was somewhat of a, somewhat of a diminishment of history, there was like, you know, we're not too concerned with history.

We just want to know what the Bible says.

They would still say, well, you know, they would still quote, you know, the Campbell's and they would, they would quote and

say, well, here's one thing, you know, that we, we, we get from them.

And, and, and some of what I remember was this idea of restoring the ancient gospel and what was, what was

restored was a baptism for the remission of sins.

Tell me what you believe about that and tell me what the movement believes in

regard to what baptism does in regard to salvation.

Yeah.

So let's see, make sure I'm as

precise as I can be in my, my language here.

So, you know, so obviously that's, that's, that comes straight out of like Acts two 38, right for us,

where Peter says like, you know, what, after he preaches, what should we do?

And he says, repent and be baptized in the name of the name of Jesus

for the forgiveness of your sins and the gift of the Holy spirit.

And so where, I guess we would, like kind of a restoration movement

tradition would kind of just take that at face value of like, okay, like here's, here's Peter kind of giving us

a, just a straightforward process of what it looks like to surrender your lives to Jesus, to

surrender your life to Jesus and to begin this Christian journey.

Then like we would, I guess we would say later kind of understand as, as, as

folks develop their understanding of the different elements of baptism and

like regeneration, how does that connect to, to, to things like to salvation?

Are we saved because we're baptized through the wall like this, that, and the other, we would say of

like, Hey, like that's all just with that's contained within the text

and not necessarily explicitly iterated through the text.

And so however it works, like, yep.

It's just in the text would be half the, I think how the, the, the, the traditional restoration movement

approach would be to that.

Okay.

But when it comes to like the, the churches of Christ, let's,

and I know you're not churches of Christ, but I want to, again, we're talking more broadly, restorational movement.

It seems to be fundamental that unless you are baptized and you even said

earlier, baptized in the church of Christ.

So it's not just in general.

What is it about the church of Christ baptism that makes it more effectual or like,

we'll just say actually effectual versus a baptism that happens in a, in a, in a, in a

Baptist church.

And the reason why I'm asking, I understand where there may, they may take great issue with infant baptism.

We're going to talk about that in a moment, but, but let's say when I get baptized in a Baptist church, I'm

baptized by immersion.

I'm baptized in accordance with the profession of faith.

I'm baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy spirit in a church of Christ.

They're baptized according to a profession of faith.

They're baptized by immersion.

I don't know if they, are they Jesus only in the sense that when they baptized that they baptized only in the name of Jesus

and, and, and that's a, that's an important distinction.

So, so talk about that for a minute.

Yeah.

And so, so I know, again, I'm speaking just generally from, again, from peripheral,

but for, especially for, for more fundamentalist

church of Christ communities, like the, the, the baptismal formula is Acts 2

to 38.

So it's, it's, that's what you're like.

That's what is, is a state stated as you're baptized.

Like you're being, you're baptized in the name and some churches are even like, you know, it's gotta be, whether it be

King James, ESV, like it's gotta be a certain wording of that, of that.

But the, like the effective, the effectualness is that you are baptized 100 in line with what the

text says.

And so they, like, like they would say, because like, even, even, you know, like us, like we,

we baptize as a simple profession of like, we're, we're committing the, to believing

that Jesus is our savior.

He died, rose again, and that sort of thing.

And then also like there's a profession of obedience.

Like, so then we're committing to live our life as best as we're able to, according to what he's laid out in the word.

That's not close enough to the, the Acts, the Acts

profession that Peter gives.

And then even in like in, in, you know, first Peter or second Peter where it talks about how, you know, by

baptism, now you're, you're now saved.

And so that the connection between those two texts is really the, the heart, I think,

of where the, the more kind of conservative fundamentalist take comes.

So when we talk about, you know, the, the emphasis on, on

particular verses, right?

I remember, you heard me tell the story the other night, but some people didn't see the show.

So I want to, I want to remind people.

I had a friend who went to Johnson Bible College, who was very much committed to restoration theology while I was

at a Southern Baptist seminary here in Jacksonville.

And I was very committed to Baptist theology and still am, even though I would say now maybe more Reformed

Baptist theology, but still I'm a Baptist through and through.

And I had a bracelet on my bracelet.

It said EPH 2, 8 to 10, or no, no, it was

just EPH 2, 8.

It was Ephesians 2, 8.

For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of.

God.

And he saw my bracelet and he said, well, if I had that bracelet, it would say Acts 2, 38.

Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, and you will receive, or repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of

sin, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And I remember thinking, okay, we have two passages that,

because I believe in the inspiration of Scripture, and I believe in tota Scriptura, meaning I believe the whole Bible's inspired, not just part

of it, I don't believe there are contradictions in.

Scripture.

I don't believe that they run roughshod over one another or one takes priority over another, but that it

is all God's Word.

And so with that said, I, you know, even back then when I was, you

know, in my mid twenties, I remember thinking, well, these don't contradict each other.

They can't contradict each other because it's God's Word.

So why is it that, and this is opinion,

this is me asking John your opinion, why is it that such an emphasis is

placed on one verse in what we would call a historical narrative passage?

This is not a didactic passage like we find in Romans where Paul is outlining doctrine or even in the

teachings of Jesus where Jesus is specifically teaching something, but rather this is in a narrative passage where Peter is

answering a question that's been placed to him in the midst of a sermon.

He's just preached, you know, his Pentecost sermon.

Now he's being asked, how do we respond to this?

And he gives his answer.

Why is this one passage placed in priority above seemingly

all other passages to give us what you consider to be the baptismal formula?

Yeah, yeah.

So I, the, I guess the, the, again, from,

from that, like that conservative standpoint, I remember working, there's a similar pastor that,

or minister, he would not call himself a pastor.

He was a, he's a minister.

And that's where I remember having this, this same conversation with him because even when I had started kind of working for this,

this, this ministry, like I was very much like, like just all over the board

denominationally, I was coming out of, you know, my, my studies in Fuller.

And so I really, with an emphasis on interdenominational, you know, like

practices and whatnot.

And so it's like, I asked that, that same question to him of like, why is, why is it this way?

So I remember we did this as a, even as a staff, we did this whole study where, you know, we, we looked for every like, you know,

instance of the word baptizo in, in the New Testament.

And it's just like, okay, we're just going to read through them and study.

And so, but, but I remember his very clearly his conclusion was, well, this is where

scripture seems to be the most clear.

Where it's, and, and, and, and even, you know, like where, like I, I

personally would like, well, I mean, yes.

But there's also other, other things to even, you know, to weigh in, other passages to include.

Because again, like you said, Keith and Karen, like, like they're, they're not, they're not competing with one another.

You know, it's, it's, it's one way of telling the, it's, it's, it's all the same story.

It's all the same faith.

And so I think it's just, again, it's, it's, it's personal conviction and personal, like just a

lot of it comes down to like the, the, the local, like the, the autonomy as in there, there is

no, there is no higher authority, even for like a hermeneutic standpoint.

There's, there's sometimes there's very much a skepticism of kind of like folks are of like, like

higher authorities that would claim, you know, there's, there's, there's restoration movement, church folks, and there's

people that they, they trust and that they, that they believe.

And like, that's like, that's, that's who we can trust.

That's who we'll go with.

And that's kind of like, we're like, we're just going to, we're, we're going to like, we're going to plant our flag

here.

And this is just where we're going to plant our flag.

And so, but again, I say that all that is just like, this is my peripheral experience.

My like opinion is I've interacted with folks and in all

things, right.

Like with all this, every, like I said, like every kind of restoration, independent church, like you're definitely going to

experience that independent side of things.

Or it's like, it's going to be different from community, community.

Like that would not be even our stance, our community where we're at now.

In a minute, I want to talk about the, the passage that we would prioritize in regard

to baptism.

But I want to, I want to, before I do that, just don't let me forget if I forget to come back to it.

Would you in your church, and I know you're not the lead pastor, but, but you're, you're, would your lead

pastor or you, would you accept a baptism if someone had been

baptized in a Baptist church?

And do you think the same, okay.

But is that the, is that the same for a church of Christ?

Like if I, if I, if I moved to a church of Christ and said, okay, I was baptized as a Baptist, would they make me be

rebaptized?

I would say it depends on which church of Christ you go to.

It depends on how, how conservative, how fundamental they are.

Like I, there, there, there are churches of Christ that would say like, okay, well, you need to be rebaptized.

There are where it's like for us, our, our, our stance is, is if you've made the

decision to go into the waters and be baptized by immersion, at some point in your

life, at some point in your faith journey, it's a valid baptism.

If you've like surrendered and recognized Jesus as your savior, you recognized and committed your life to Jesus as your Lord.

Yep.

You're in.

Okay.

Well, we're going to talk in a minute about what makes a valid baptism and what if somebody hasn't been baptized.

So we're going to get there in a moment.

But before we do that, I want to, I want to go back to the passage because we were talking about how Acts 2 38 sort

of functions as a, as a seminal or at least a central passage in the,

in the restoration teaching.

And I think that, I think you and I, even if people disagree with some of what we're saying, I don't think anybody would disagree that Acts 2 38 sort

of stands as the, as, as, you know, it's almost like, you know, in, in, in,

in reform circles, Ephesians 2 8 tends to stand as one of those passages that we, that we

lift up and say, here, here's our doctrine of, you know, justification.

We're just faced by grace through faith alone and not by works.

Right.

So it's Ephesians 2 8 through 10.

So, but, but when it comes to baptism, and it's interesting, you said you went through every, every, you

know, study of every use of the baptizo word.

I would be curious how that study went, because there are times when baptizo doesn't even

reference water baptism.

It doesn't even reference, you know, like when the children were baptized in the Red Sea and things like that, you know, speaking of Moses.

But the, the, the, the, the seminal passage, and I would say this is not just me

or our tradition.

I would say historically, the passage which has carried the most weight

regarding baptism has not been Acts 2 38, even though it's important.

I would say that the passage that has carried the most weight has been the, the, the great commission of Christ, where he

commands baptism in the, in the triune name.

And again, because we are not, we are not pitting scripture

against scripture.

When I hear Peter say, you know, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And then I read Jesus's words where Jesus says, go therefore and baptize them in the Anima, the

singular name of the, of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit, right?

This, this becomes the formula.

If you want to say, and I don't even like the word formula, but if you want to say the baptismal language of, of the

new covenant church is that we are going to baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit.

So much so that by the second century, the Didache, which was an early church document, I'm not sure if

you're familiar with it, it was an early writing in the church so much so that it was, it was the practice of the church that they would

actually dip three times.

They would dip on behalf of the father and on behalf of the son, on behalf of the spirit, you know, in the name of rather not on behalf of, but in

the name of.

And so when, when a person from your tradition says, well, the

clearest and seminal passages Acts 2 .38, how would you respond to someone who says, no, the clearest

and seminal passage is actually this passage, this passage, which speaks of the

triune name.

And, and, and I mean, just, just give me your thoughts on that as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So I would say like, so the, it's, I guess the, the distinction is probably often made is the,

between, between process and

formula in terms of like, because, because that's, I mean, we, you know, that's what we, like

we, when we, when we baptize folks here at FCC, it's there's public confession, Jesus

is Lord, Jesus is my savior, Jesus is my Lord.

And then, Hey, then whoever's doing the baptizing is, okay, we now baptize you in the name

of the Holy Spirit.

And so.

Okay.

So you use the, you use the triune name in baptism.

Okay.

Oh yes. Yep.

And so like, I think it's more of like the, the, the

distinction would be in Acts that we would see a process layout

where, and then in Matthew 28, we see the over overarching vision and purpose

for our, for our ministry.

And so I guess, is that, is that distinction?

Yeah.

And, and I mean, I've even heard it, and this was actually, I told you my former pastor, you know,

was, was restoration movement.

At least he, you know, he had graduated Johnson and all that.

And he, you know, that's where he was from.

And he, he, he would say it like this, which I always thought was interesting.

It seemed almost like he was, it almost seemed like he was like cutting the line in half.

Like he was riding the line.

He would say, I baptize you into Christ in the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy.

Spirit.

Like, like, like, like that was his phrase, which, which, which again, and he didn't baptize me, by the way,

just to throw that out there.

I was baptized by a Baptist minister.

A good Baptist baptized me.

But in, in that regard, this, this goes to the question of what do we believe happens?

Cause when he said, I baptize you into Christ, it reminds me

of another time that I've seen specifically more church of Christ baptism

where, and it was, I know, you know, Duck Dynasty guys that they're

restoration guys.

Have you ever met him?

I have not met him, but despite the, the, the, the, the gangly beard I got going on,.

You kind of look like maybe you'd be the red haired family.

I've never been that deep into Louisiana.

I don't know if I'd, I don't know if I'd make it out, but.

Well, they, I saw, I saw Phil Robertson, the patriarch of the family.

I saw him performing a baptism and he said, while he was performing, I

could find the video if I had to, to prove this.

But, but if I remember correctly, his words were I'm going to put you in this water.

You're going to come out saved.

Basically, you're going to come out, you're going in a center coming out, you know, you're going to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

And he said, um, I baptize you into Christ.

That, that was the word, the language he used, he baptized.

I don't remember if he said, father, son, Holy Spirit, but I remember he said, I'm baptizing you into Christ.

This is your, this is your immersion into Christ.

So is that the, theologically when you're teaching someone about baptism, do you teach them that it is

baptism that is the, the, the, the act whereby a person is

made a Christian?

We, so we would, it's the, it's the act that is necessary for the obedience.

Um, like, so the, the, the historically, I guess, you know, we say historically, so for like, like 200 years, at

least, you know, in the restoration movement, folks, um, defined, um, like

the, a Christian as anyone who, um, who has

trusted fully, um, in, in, uh, Jesus, in Christ, and then

is obedient to his word.

Um, and so like there, there's the unique, like the, both of those marks.

And so like, I know, I know some, there, there's a lot of conflation that happens, particularly in

like, even more like conservative independent Christian churches, um, and whatnot of like, like

salvation issues and obedience issues are the same.

They're not, and in some, in some respects, yes, they are.

They are.

I mean, obviously it's all one.

You can't separate those, um, completely and whatnot.

Um, but we would say more of, and I'm going to say it's, it's, I want to say it was, yeah, it was, it was Alexander

Campbell.

Um, who, um, who talked about the distinction between, um,

like that we are saved by Jesus only saving is Jesus, Jesus's work only.

Um, and then our response is to live in obedience, like an obedient life, uh,

submitted to Christ and his word.

Um, and so like, it's, it's not a, it's, it's not an either or it's a both and sort of thing.

Um, okay.

Yeah.

I guess that's probably the best way I can, I can describe the reformed or the restoration

position.

Okay.

So baptism is an, is an active obedience in your view?

Yes.

Okay.

Um, trying to nail it down a little further.

And again, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm more like within the movement, you can say, well, this group would hold to this

and maybe not so much this group, but so, so I want to know your thoughts, but I also want to know sort of

the broader context.

Um, so are there those, and would you agree with them?

Are there those who would say, unless you are baptized, you will not see the kingdom of heaven?

There, there are certainly those, um, who would say that, um, for me

personally, I don't know if like, that's not something that I can say, like, I can't take a definitive stance on that because I

don't, I don't see that through like, you know, the, the, the, the restoration books.

I don't see that plainly, um, in the scriptures because you, you know, you have examples of,

of, um, you know, the, the thief on the cross, um, you know, there's the Alistair Begg, like the, his, his

viral clip from a couple of years ago of like, you know, like the, the thief gets to heaven and all these folks like, Oh,

did you do these things?

These things?

And like, nope, nope.

It's like, well, what are you doing here?

Is the man on the cross next to me said I could come, um, you know, like that, that sort of, and so, um,

but there, there are certainly people who would, who, who have, who have said, and continue to say like, unless

you're baptized, yep, you're not, you're not actually, um, saved.

And so that's where, like for us, even for me, like I would make the distinction of like, like get Jesus,

Jesus alone saves.

And so there's nothing magical about the waters of baptism so much as the, the, the power

is in the efficacy is in the necessary obedience, uh, of surrender, uh,

to, to, uh, the call of Christ.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Um, and this again, it just, trying to think through this, these

thoughts, right.

Um, I'm going to, I'm going to throw out a few theological questions and you just tell

me, maybe you can tell me where you stand and you can also say where the, you know, where the broader

restoration movement people would stand.

All right.

Does the restoration, or do you believe in, does the restoration movement believe in, um,

in imputational righteousness that, that, that the righteousness we receive is imputed, um,

to us because of the work of Christ?

Broadly speaking, I think there's, there's definitely like, me personally, yes.

Okay.

Um, and, and I said broadly, that is, that is becoming more common.

Okay.

But was that, was that something, because it seems to me that that's the heart of like sola

fide, right?

Like justification by faith alone is, is, is justification.

I always say it's theological shorthand for justification by the work of Christ alone, being that we are, that

we're, the, the imputational righteousness or righteousness is imputed to us.

It's not something we attain by our obedience.

Our obedience is byproduct of, not the cause of our justification.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And that, like, that would, um, I, like, I would say like historically that's been,

um, the commitment of, especially like predominant restoration movement leaders.

Um, well, like, like you kind of had mentioned before, you know, like one of the, one of the unique things I think we're working through in our

stream and our tradition is this, like, so one of our, I think one of the drawbacks, one of the weaknesses, um, is like this

historical unrootedness.

Um, you know, like there's, there's very much like restoration movement is very much also, there's an emphasis on, uh, like

millennialism, right?

This idea of like, we're restoring, we're reforming the church because we're about to usher in, um,

this, you know, the, the, the, this, this, the, um, the, the millennial kingdom.

Um, and so, um, that was very much that it was a big part of the, the growth of the movement in the first hundred years

of the movement.

Um, and so, um, there's, with that emphasis there, there very much comes this sense of like,

well, again, like you said, like, well, history doesn't really matter so much.

What matters is right now and what, how we're like able to set people up moving forward.

But I think there's definitely becoming a, a, not just a, a desire, but a needed

desire in our, in our, our, our churches, our folks, um, of like understanding, like

not just where we're going, but how we got here.

Um, and, and definitely like recovering, um, some of the things that we might, we were, I would say

definitely too skeptical of in the past.

Um, but really recovering a lot of, um, just the, the, the wealth and the depth of

particularly like Protestant tradition in, um, in, uh, in the West, in America, um,

and how that like, you know, can just set us up for healthy churches, um, now and moving forward.

Got you.

Well, the reason why I brought up the, the imputational, uh, righteousness is because the, the

question would come when, when is Christ's righteousness imputed to us?

Is it when we believe or when we're baptized?

That, that's a, that's a, that's a broader question, right?

Um, because those who would say we're not Christians until we're baptized, we're not truly born again until baptism.

Um, and again, that's a whole other discussion because I've, I've, from what I understand, they don't typically use

the term baptismal regeneration, but rather terms like baptismal remission or, you know, uh,

language like that.

And so all of that comes into play.

And really, I think this is where people on my side look with a lot of suspicion

at folks from the restoration movement, because when we begin to talk about what it is that actually saves

and what it, and you've said, you know, from your perspective, it's Jesus who saves it's Christ's work that saves.

You believe in imputational righteousness, all of those things are great, but there are those who

would say, um, you know, that this, this action that I, that I perform this or not, not, not that

I perform, but this action that I under undergo this baptism is what brings about my

right standing with God.

Right.

And, and so people on some of the people on our side would say, but wait, that's justification by

works.

And, and, and how would you respond if someone said that, that, that, that by holding

to the necessity of, of a particular form of baptism in a particular way that that's justification by

works.

So like I would, then when, when I said, yeah, you know, two seconds ago, it was, yeah.

As in like, I, I, I definitely agree.

And, and, and even us within, um, you know, within restoration movement folks, like

that, that's our critique as well.

Um, and so that's, you know, that's why we're, we're, um, we're independent and not, not church of Christ.

Um, and especially like the, you know, more our critique and more like conservative, more fundamental church of Christ circles.

Um, because yeah, that like, that's, that's very much the mindset behind that position is

that like, again, once, you know, once this book was finished, nothing really of value, uh, came about

afterwards.

And so it's, it's, everything has got to be tied directly, uh, to, uh, to a text explicitly

to a text, um, and to where we would just say, that's just not, not, not a tenable way of

like, not, not just like living out, but preserving, uh, the faith, uh, moving

forward.

And so, um, yeah, like I, I, I would respond probably with the same critique that you would give,

uh, those folks.

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Okay.

Um, within the, uh, within this theological, and I know we're getting close to an hour mark, I

hope you have a few extra minutes.

I do, I do want to ask you a few questions from the folks who send in questions online, but as we sort of try to put a

bow on these theological things, I want to ask you one, one more theological question, because again,

the big issue is, and there are people in, there are people in the Protestant

Reformation who believe in baptismal regeneration.

I mean, Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration.

And, and, and so we, we are, obviously I would differ with them.

Um, uh, I believe baptism is a sign of entrance into the new covenant.

I don't believe that it is a, uh, that, that it is effectual for salvation.

I believe that it is a sign of the promise that God gives us in Christ and that by believing in him, we are saved and

receiving the sign is sign of entrance into the kingdom.

Again, for those who want to know what my position is, which is outlined and described in the second London Baptist confession, even though I

hold the first London, I think it's better articulated in the second London.

Don't give me a hard time.

You guys out there.

But in regard to another doctrinal thing, do you hold to,

and does the broader restoration movement hold to, um, the doctrine of original sin as

Adam's guilt being imputed to all of his posterity?

Yes.

So me personally, yes.

Um, and, and I guess the way we would, um, I want to say,

I think some of your restoration.

Folks are going to disagree that they don't.

So, so yeah, everything that I say, like as independent is like, okay,

like I can only speak for about, uh, you know, three to 400 folks, um, in, uh, Northern Ohio.

Uh, and so you're definitely going to find folks that are, that are on both sides of that for, for us.

And I would say like, I would say like a simple, if not like,

like major majority, um, I'll say probably like two thirds of folks, um, would definitely agree

with some form of original sin.

Um, that's, that's past like some sort of like fallen human condition.

Yeah, I think, and that's where, you know, this is an interesting, you use the particular phrase fall in human

condition.

Um, most people that I know, um, regardless of their

denominational distinctives or their background would hold to something happened to humanity when Adam fell.

Right.

Like, like, like something caused a problem.

Um, I think we're the, I think we're at least the guys I've run into restoration guys who I've talked

to.

The biggest issue they have is that we inherit guilt from Adam.

Oh, I see that, that, that not that Adam's sin didn't affect us.

I think we would all agree that has affected at least the world in general brought about thorns and thistles and,

and sickness and disease.

You know, I would say that the, the, the, the fall brought about the three D's death, disease, and destruction.

Right.

Those are the things that come as a result of the fall.

None.

I don't think anybody would disagree with me on that, but they is okay.

Um, but, uh, but does the newborn

child inherit the guilt of Adam?

Um, I mean, my, my tradition would say absolutely.

Yes, that we, you know, we would do that unashamedly.

Yes.

Even though it creates a lot of conflict, people who say we don't love our kids and people who say, you know,

God doesn't love our kids and things like that because, you know, why is it their fault?

They're inheriting the sin of Adam and we have to get into things like federal headship and all that.

But the issue is, um, from your perspective, do you think that is

something that is typically denied in, in, in the restoration movement?

I think it's something that's explained a little bit differently.

I don't think so.

I think that restoration, like in essence, most restoration folks will,

um, would agree with like all of the implications.

Um, I think the way that we would just like restoration folks would describe it is more of,

of there's guaranteed participation in, uh, the fallen state of

humanity thereby.

Like, so like, it's not that like in terms of in the, in the, like, I guess we would, the distinction we make is like moment to moment,

like sure.

Like, you know, as, as a baby enters the world, like, you know, I'm like first holding my daughter.

My first thing is like, Oh my goodness.

It's the most perfect thing I've ever laid eyes on.

Right.

Um, as, as a dad, like, you know, like, like, you know, there's something that just comes in, uh, to that moment.

Um, but there is this sense of like, it's not a question of if it's a matter of when.

And so because that like, when is hardwired into her, like she's got like, she bears just as much

responsibility as I do.

Um, and so, um, I guess is that, is that.

Yeah.

So, uh, in that sense, and again, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, you know, over parse your words,

but I do want to just sort of nail it down a little bit tighter.

Do you think a person is born innocent and becomes a sinner when they sin that.

That's really, I think it.

No, I don't think that's a, that's an accurate way of describing it.

I think it's more of like, you're like, like, because of the

propensity to sin and like that, it's not a matter of if it's a guaranteed win,

um, like it's that that's part of the fallen condition.

All right.

Now here's a, here's a real good question.

And this is, this is something that we both have to deal with.

Um, you know, regardless of our traditions, this is a, this is something I think every pastor has

to address.

And that is the question of, do you think that there's a point where they're,

regardless of their condition as sinners, because I would say they're born sinners, they're born in sin, they're guilty

because of Adam's sin.

But when do they, when do they functionally become guilty?

Is it only when they understand their guilt?

And is there a particular time that you place on that?

Like some people would say there's an age of accountability and, you know, some churches I remember

specifically, like, like in my mom's churches growing up, but my, my mom and stepmom, two different people, obviously

my mom took me to the holiness church.

And at the holiness church, it was the, it was the age of 12, because that's when the Jewish people would have their, you know, their bar

mitzvah.

That's when they become sons of the law.

That's what bar mitzvah means.

And so they believe that they're responsible to the law now at the age of 12.

And so some people believe that that's a designated time.

Jesus was in the temple when he was 12 and they, they sort of mark it all.

Like they come up with, they come up with conclusions that aren't from the text, but sort of, sort of, you know, sort of like, yeah, they're Jason.

Yeah. Yeah.

They're, they're textual adjacent.

I like that.

They're not exegesis.

They're adjacent.

But so do you tell people in your church, okay, little, little Johnny is okay.

But when he turns 12, he's not okay.

And I'm sure you don't, but I'm just saying, is that, you know, yeah, no, that's yeah.

So there's, there's certainly an age of like, like, like I'll say like maybe

responsibility is a better word than accountability.

Right.

Because even so my daughter is three right now, even at three, you know, like we're, we're my, my wife and I

are constantly working with her of like, okay, why did you, you know, why did you throw your bowl of

Froot Loops across the room?

What you did last night.

And it's like, exactly, exactly.

There's this inherent, like we can identify, like, even at that age, like there's this inherent, like self -interest of like, we,

yeah, this is not good.

This is not what we want.

And so like, but there's definitely an age where, where, you know, like, we don't, we don't like,

we're not going to baptize my three -year -old because we don't like feel like right now she can make an accurate profession of

faith.

You know, she's got to get to a point where she understands the responsibility that she has to uphold, to, to

walk in God's ways and to, to, to, to uphold that, uphold God's standards.

And so I think that that's part of the conversation, but there's definitely not like a sense of, well,

you know, all's fair game until you're 12, until you're actually accountable to the law.

But I, so yeah, I guess, is that, is that, is that a helpful way of explaining?

Yep.

Okay.

So I, I have a few questions and I want to be fair to my, my friends on Twitter, because I ask these

questions.

I say, Hey, what, what do you want me to ask this pastor, this brother?

You know, what do you want me to ask him?

And people, boy, this is,

there's a bunch of them.

There, there, there, there are a lot.

And so I, I'm going to, I'm going to nail it down to just a few

because I don't want to, you know, monopolize your whole day and we have to keep this interview to

at least a reasonable length.

So we both got stuff to do.

Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely.

The first one of the questions is actually one we've already talked about.

That's the original sin inheriting the guilt of Adam.

Um, uh, do you know, Dr. Jack Courtrell?

I don't think I do.

Okay.

All right.

Well that they, they reference him, but we won't, we won't, we won't get to that if it's not someone you're familiar with.

All right.

Um, the second one is, I think really a useful question is, is the no creed, but Christ or

the restoration plea, as they refer to it, sufficient to keep restoration movement churches from drifting into

errors that most evangelical denominations are dealing with in our post Christian culture.

So is, is, do you think, basically, if I could narrow the question down to a simpler question

is, is having no creeds actually a detriment to the restoration movement?

I, I think it, it can be.

Okay.

Um, because it's like in, in, in essence, right.

It's, um, and that's where we're, I, you know, I talked, uh, you know, a little bit earlier of just like, there, there's

definitely this growing movement of how do we, um, recover a historical understanding, like a, like a

historical understanding of where we are, how we got here and how we're moving forward, um, within the restoration movement.

I think that's definitely becoming a trend.

Um, but I don't think it's necessarily like means that like

we can't be.

And so again, that's one, I guess, one of the difficulties in, um, every church is autonomous, every church is it's so it's,

I really, I guess the, the, the, the most honest answer I can give to that question is it's very

much up to the leadership of the individual church.

Um, and so it, it, it absolutely can be, um, a sense of, or like a, a,

a way that like church is just like, like, okay, we don't have any other kind of binding, um,

guiding influence, uh, than like our own hermeneutic.

Um, and so like, yep, we can kind of come up with all, all manner of things.

Um, but it's not necessarily, I guess that's not necessarily the reality.

Okay.

And this is where, you know, just from my tradition and my background, and we all have traditions, people who say they have no

traditions are usually the ones who are most bound by them, uh, quoting James White there.

Uh, but the, the reason why we would value creeds and confessions,

and we do, uh, we, we actually recite creeds in our worship service.

We recite catechisms in our worship service.

And the reason why we do is so one, we can have a connection to the historic

church rather than being, you know, our own sort of by ourself on an Island kind of thing.

But the other thing is that we can say, you know, the church has already dealt with this issue, so there's really

no reason for us to have to re -deal with it.

So like, like for instance, the doctrine of the Trinity, when the Jehovah witness comes rap, rap, rapping on our chamber door, we can say to them, look,

the church has already dealt with you.

We dealt with you 1700 years ago at the council of Nicaea.

We told you you were wrong then you're still wrong today.

So, uh, you either need to repent or you're going to burn in the fires of hell because you believe in a wrong Jesus.

I mean, that may sound mean, but that's the answer we would give.

Uh, maybe, maybe not in those words, I might be a little kinder than that, but that is the answer is you

have, you have denied the historic doctrine of who God is, not just because

it's what said in the Nicene creed, the Athanasian creed and all the others, but it's also, it's what the Bible says.

It's what the church has affirmed.

The Bible says, um, would you affirm the Trinity?

I mean, is your church affirms the Trinity as, as, as stated in the creeds?

Yep.

And so I should say like, no, no creed, I guess like that, that doesn't mean that we don't make

use of creeds like, like we, so like in our, our church, we, like we define Orthodox Christianity,

uh, via like Nicene and, and, and Apostle, um, Apostle creeds in terms of like, you know,

um, the nature of God, the, the hypostatic union, um, you.

Know, like the, um, is that, is that unique though in the restoration movement, or would

you say churches of Christ would, would do that would say we affirm, you know, Nicene Orthodoxy and

things like that.

I would have to say no, but I don't know.

I mean, I would say I've, I've encountered church of Christ folks that, that don't

do it that way.

There are definitely more, I would say like, like Jesus only kind of folks, almost like

modal in their, in, in, in essence, like they, they probably have some sort of faith statement about like the God of the

Bible, father, son, and Holy spirit.

Um, but in terms of like the actual practice, like end up being more modal, um, in their like understanding

and in their teaching.

But I would say by and large, that's not the, the trend.

Um, particularly, I guess I'm, I'm around a lot more independent Christian, non -denominational Christian, uh,

churches nowadays.

Um, and so like definitely in this stream, it like, nope, it's, it's full Trinitarian

Nicene, um, Orthodoxy, um, is how we understand Orthodoxy as well.

Okay.

I, I, I, I, again, I would be interested if there are people who are watching who are

perspective, uh, please leave a comment if you do.

And, um, you know, uh, maybe I can interact with you as well, but talking to the person leaving the comment.

Um, but, but that, that's, that's something I would have thought was just like a big no,.

No.

Was like, you know, we, we don't do that.

So, so I'm curious to hear other thoughts on that.

Uh, the, um, the, here's another good question.

The Stone Campbell movement correctly defended Orthodox Christianity against Mormonism and

Christadelphian cults in the 19th century.

This person really worded this question.

Well, I just want you to know, um, this is disassociating with them.

Why won't they do the same with the 20th and 21st century discipling movement cults that spawned from the restoration

movement, namely the international churches of Christ crossroads, Boston movement, the international

Christian churches and the restored churches worldwide.

If they, if they were willing to disassociate from false Christian, then why won't they do it now?

That's the part of the question.

So the, the easy answer to the heart of that question is there's like, there's nobody to make

the, there is not a group, a, like a, a figure had a

dominant person, um, to like make that, um, declaration.

We would, we would absolutely like, we absolutely distinguish ourselves from them, like individually as like churches and whatnot.

It's like, I mean, even if you look at more, I would say like more prominent, um, restoration movement churches.

And so, you know, I'm thinking, um, you know, you got like Southeast, you got Bob Russell ministries.

Um, you've got, um, like Mark Moore, um, the Christ church of Valley out in Arizona.

Um, you, you, you listen to their, like, like individually, those churches are going to be very, um, like

very much against that sort of, of, um, I'm not, not, not too familiar with,

with, um, I know that the Boston folks as a group, I guess of those listed, I'm more familiar with.

Um, but yeah, essentially like what, like with us not being a denomination without that, like hierarchy there, there is no

group to say like, this is like, this isn't orthodox restoration folks.

These guys aren't, um, that, that, that sort of torch like past with, with, uh, kind

of the first few generations.

Um, and, um, yeah, there's not really anybody to take up that at this point.

Do you think that's one of the, the, the problems of not being denominational is

that.

Absolutely, absolutely.

There's no higher, I don't want to say hierarchy, but there's no organizational leadership.

That's definitely one of the, one of the tensions we, I would say like, like, I guess I described as like, you know, there's, there's

strengths and tensions that we just have to like deal with, come to terms with.

And that's definitely one of the tensions of like, yep.

Like we're not able to just say like, like we don't have a national group that can just say, yep, these

guys are out for this reason, even though like all of, you know, if you talk to, so, you know, in

our area, there's, um, one, two, three, there's, there's four big restoration though.

Like we, we do a lot with, um, and all four of those churches would say of those

groups, like, nope, they're, they're, they're often left field doing who knows what, but they're definitely

not, um, you know, like, like I said, like going back to like the heart of the movement, they're not submitting to the truth of God's

word.

Um, they're not promoting the unity of the church.

So therefore by definition, they're not restoration movement.

Like, so you hear that message individually within the churches, um, but there's just no

national group to, to say that.

Yeah.

And so, so like theoretically it could be that you be in a town where

you've got two independent Christian churches and one would say, they're not like us.

They're not that you, they may claim to be like us.

They may claim to be part of the same movement, but they're not really us, you know?

Okay.

I mean, and you know, that, that's, that, that's a, that happens.

I mean, there are people that call themselves Baptist.

I would say they're not historically Baptist.

Um, they don't hold to Baptist distinctives or Baptist theology, but they are, they're Baptist, I guess, because they

baptized believers.

That's not the only thing that makes you a Baptist.

Yeah, exactly.

And I'm thinking of like, you know, like, like, you know, someplace like Charlotte, like, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's several Baptist churches that would

look at, at like elevations and like, okay, you know, yeah, they're not Baptist.

They're far more charismatic.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's a good example.

Yeah.

Furtick went to Southern Seminary, which is the, which is amazing when people hear that, but he did.

Furtick's a Southern grad.

Okay.

This is a good question here.

This is from somebody who is disciples of Christ.

So I thought this was, and by the way, I want to say right away, I have over 45 questions that came in on Twitter

and another dozen or so that came in through Facebook.

So we are not getting to everybody's question.

I'm sorry, but thank you for, thank you for your questions.

And I've tried to, I've tried to on this episode.

This is to the audience.

I've tried to give a swath of the various, I know the big issues were baptism,

creeds.

We've covered that, talked about that, but this is a good, like kind of practical ministry question.

This person says, I'm disciple of Christ.

I'd like to know if, if you, John, find it frustrating when you look and see disciples of Christ

members and even churches that are more concerned with what they feel the Bible should say, instead of studying the Bible to know

what it does say on particular topics.

We're sometimes so accommodating and diversity of opinion that we forget to actually say no to some of the

things that are obviously wrong.

Now, I know you're not disciples in it, but you, I'm sure you rub elbows with disciples,.

Right?

Oh, oh, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And that's, that's a great, I know.

So for, even for me personally, like I am naturally, like I'm a huge people pleaser, like I hate

disappointing anybody.

And so I know that was, that was like definitely a big hurdle.

As I like entered the ministry of, oh, Hey, I'm just going to love you to Jesus.

I'm going to love you to Jesus.

I'm going to love you to Jesus.

But then learning how to like, you know, part of, you know, even a lot of the conversations I participate in now, you know, even

with like a number of the cultural issues, it's like, you know, the response is, well, why can't we just love people?

And my response now is like, well, love has to, love is only effectual if it means what Jesus meant

when he's, when he loved people.

And so that meant confronting like the, the love of Jesus is, is

worked out when he says, you know, like starts off his ministry and Mark repents and for the

kingdom of God is.

Near.

And so like, that's the, that's the heart of love it just as much as you know, like

first Corinthians 13 and anything we see there.

And so that's definitely something like for me personally is on a practical level that we're always growing in because nobody

likes to have hard conversations like, you know, and have to like, okay, hey, we got to deal with the junk.

But that's, you know, that's the reality of the work that we're called into of helping people understand that the, the,

the gravity of, of the sin they're walking in.

And it's like, no, it's not, it's not, it's, it's not just something we can, we can push under the rug.

We got to deal with this.

And we got to look at it the way that Jesus looks at it and address it in this, with the same fervor,

the same manner.

Yeah.

I think there's so much of an accommodation in the disciples of Christ church for, for

just things that are, are, are demonstrably biblically untrue.

You know, I remember John Dominic Crossland came to Jacksonville

and he's a, he's a higher critic of scripture.

He believes that, you know, believes a lot of crazy things about the Bible and about Jesus, believes Jesus didn't rise

from the grave, believes he didn't do miracles, things like that.

And he was being hosted when he came to town to give a seminar and guess what church hosted.

Him?

The disciples of Christ church.

Yeah.

And so it just indicative of that and, and sort of where they're at

theologically.

One person wanted you to opine on the sinner's prayer.

So I'm going to give you an opportunity to just give your thoughts, you know, because obviously

this may be an area we agree, but this, but, but like disagree on why, but like we agree, like, like, okay.

So your thoughts, when you hear somebody say sinner's prayer or, you know, what you think this person might be asking when they say to

ask you about that.

Yeah.

So, I mean, so I guess, I don't know if I'm the best, cause like being a church kid, I like,

honestly, like my response and even like growing up with, you know, with like

my, my personal take is like a lot of, you know, somebody that like responds with the sinner's prayer and, you know, people

who like, especially like, you know preachers like, you know, like raise your hand and pray this prayer with me.

You're, you're like, I'm a little bit skeptical of that, of that myself just

because like it's, it's, I guess the personal conviction is that can often be something that's

just too much, too easy of an out.

Then like the, the actual, like the actual call of Jesus is not to

like pray.

It's like, it's, it's to discipleship, it's to follow.

And so it's not just repent.

I mean, turn around, but it's repent is not just turn around, but it's, it's move in a different direction.

And so I know in, in various, especially like restoration traditions, it's like, this is just the

moment we're going for, right?

We just want to get people to realize like, yep.

Like, like I'm a sinner.

I need grace.

Jesus saved me.

Yes, absolutely.

That's step one of a, of a much longer journey.

And so we cannot stop at that first step.

Gotcha.

Where I would take, you know, cause, cause I've, I have my own issues with the sinner's prayer where I have

the issue primarily is, I guess it's similar to what you said in that.

And that is the idea that we've replaced, we've

replaced the biblical idea of faith with this action of, of

repeat this prayer after me.

And it also becomes like a mantra or almost like, like you know, even in Islam, they have a

prayer that you pray to become a Muslim and that, you know, and sort of like adopting this sort of almost

unbiblical practice of, well, this is, you become a Christian by doing this thing, by becoming, by saying

these words or, or repeating these words.

And I do, again, I hold a high, high view.

I believe a high view of baptism.

Obviously people would disagree.

I believe baptism is our sign of entrance into the new covenant.

And it is a, it is a command is something we must obey.

And I think when, when, when, what has happened, I think in a lot of churches is they've said, okay, the sign of entrance

into the, into the faith is not baptism.

But at the sign of entrance into the faith is, is this prayer.

Raise your hand, essentially.

And I'll say the prayer, sign the card.

When neither one I think is, is what actually enters us into the kingdom.

I think we are entered into the kingdom by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ.

Alone.

And that occurs when the Holy Spirit of God opens our heart to believe, regenerates us and gives us new life.

Those are the things I would say happen prior to baptism.

And this is where I would, there would be some who would disagree and say that happens in baptism.

And that would be the distinction.

But, but yeah, that's my issue with the sinner's prayer.

It replaces biblical categories of faith, repentance, baptism with a,

with this additional thing.

And some people would say, well, this is just the, you know, faith, you know, how do you express your faith?

You express it through prayers.

I understand those who argue for it, but I definitely take, I definitely take an issue with those who would

say, well, just pray this prayer and you're saved.

And then, you know, no call for repentance or, you know, following.

Exactly.

It's not, it's not a bad prayer.

It's a great prayer.

It's just a bad place to stop.

So it's like, well, absolutely.

Like, let's, let's keep moving down this, this, this path.

Yeah.

Well, let me, let me do this.

I'm going to leave with, with, with one last one, because I know we're, we're out of time, way out of time actually.

And, and, and so I want to, I don't want to keep you any longer.

Well, Hey, if you ever want to like chat more and get back to some of these questions, like,.

And there may be a follow -up that people want to do.

I have a feeling there's, there's going to be those who want, you know, maybe a church of Christ.

Maybe somebody may want to come on and maybe at some point I'll do that, but certainly enjoy talking with you.

May, may have you on in the future to discuss some other things.

This is, this is how these work.

These bow tie dialogues work this way.

Love it.

Just conversational.

So last question, and this is where I think may, may, may show a big distinction.

I don't know if I were to ask you, John.

Okay.

Here's, here's a young person.

They've just come into the church.

They've never heard the gospel.

How do you explain the gospel to them?

The gospel.

So I guess we've kind of worked through creation, creation, fall

God restoring through coming as a man through the

incarnation, death, resurrection, and then invitation into new life.

Okay.

All right.

So that's, but you would explain what each of those things mean.

Yes, that's it.

That's obviously, that's a 30 second.

How did they, how did, what would you say to them in regard to, and, and therefore you,

you should do this.

Therefore, like next step is like, is as you respond to the gospel, instead of number one, they like to,

to surrender your life to Jesus, to claim him as your savior, to claim him as your Lord, to be baptized.

And then to part did then to enter into the family of God in the local church.

Okay.

All right.

All right, my friend.

Well, I appreciate that.

I appreciate your answer.

And so I want to, again, thank you for, you reached out to me through

the Friday Night Live.

You did this at a moment's notice and anybody who may come in later and have, you know, well, I wish you'd have talked about this or

wish you'd talk about that.

We did this quickly because I quickly came to know you, liked talking with you and said, Hey, this is a guy I think we can have

a good conversation with.

And people who disagree and say, oh, well, he didn't represent my side or the other side.

It's a broad spectrum.

Restoration churches are not monolithic.

That's part of the movement is that they're, you know, they're independent and not monolithic.

So like I said, the only, the only place in America that I can guarantee you'll hear like what I just said is if you

come to First Christian Church in Huber Heights, Ohio, other than that, like I can guarantee you, like if you're at a, even if you're at

a restoration, there's a restoration church about five miles down the road from us.

You're going to hear things explained a little bit differently than even how we would explain it.

But again, that's, yeah, so that's, that's part of the movement.

Now, are you in North Ohio or South Ohio?

Southwest Central.

So we're about an hour north of Cincinnati on the north side of Dayton.

Well, I'm going to be in Ohio in three, four weeks.

I'm going to be there.

But I don't remember the Oclova, Oclovon, Ohio, or I forget how to say it, but it's, it's,

it's near, I've got to fly into Detroit, which I'm actually not looking forward to that

and drive over to.

Okay.

So more problem, more Toledo area.

Yes. Yeah.

Right around there.

How far is that from you?

Oh, it's a couple hours, but.

Hey man, I'm down to get a coffee.

Well, if you want to meet up, but I'll be there for the dangerous friends conference.

I mentioned this in the introduction.

Anybody who wants to come visit out the Michael Foster will be there.

Rosario Butterfield will be there.

I'll be there.

A bunch of other people will be there.

So come check it out.

All right.

Good time.

Yes, sir.

All right, John, thank you so much for being on your Calvinist podcast day.

I really appreciate it.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Keith can look forward to just how, how conversation grows.

Absolutely.

Guys, I want to thank you again for watching the show and being a part today.

Hopefully this was encouraging and educational for you.

And I know you probably have more questions that you'd like for us to answer in the future.

So if you have questions, send them in and I'll either answer them on a Friday night live, or maybe even put a whole podcast together,

depending on the length and weight of the question.

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My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

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