Interview: Pat Abendroth (May, 2010)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth.

The State of Evangelical Preaching

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, ministry. This is Mike Abendroth, and it is, I don't know what day of the week it is today. We'll just play this show whenever we want. Maybe we'll play this show on a Friday, false Friday, who knows?

The theme here is always biblical, always controversial or provocative, always in that order. And today I've got a special guest in the studio, in the EIB studios, Pat Abendroth. Pat, welcome. In the house, glad to be here.

Thanks, Mike. Pat is my brother. I'm almost 50, Pat's 41 years old, and Pat is the pastor of Omaha Bible Church, has been there, I think, probably 10 years as my guest, faithfully preaching through the word, omahabiblechurch .org.

And Pat's here to do a conference, and I thought we've got to come in and just talk about ministry together. Sounds good, glad to be here, better than on the phone. Last night I took Pat to Candlepin Bowling, and Pat, have you ever been Candlepin Bowling?

I've never been, can't wait to go back. I feel like a candlehead bowling, and we were in like the nicest part of all of Massachusetts too, I think. I won't tell anybody what city that is because then you might feel offended.

Although that is the city when I cast out demons, I always send them to Lemonster, and so that's the spot. They were legion when we were there. I always felt bad for people. You know, if you're going to cast a demon out, Pat, it's got to go from one place to another.

And so if you cast a demon out of your own church and walk around it seven times and make the hedge go around it and everything else, and where do you send the demons? I think you send them somewhere hot, like Arizona.

My brother-in-law, Steve, Duncan, you know him, Pat, he works on houses in California, and they have some kind of special Buddhist refractor-reflector kind of crystal. So when the demons allegedly come to the house, it makes them go somewhere else.

And so Steve said to these people, Pat, that's the most unloving thing I've ever heard of. And the people say, well, what do you mean? You're sending all these demons away towards your neighbors. So he gave them a Bible.

Why Men Won't Preach the Bible

Anyway, what we want to do today on No Compromise Radio Ministry is today with Pat, I want to talk about the state of preaching. This is the state of the union on preaching in evangelicalism here in America, worldwide.

And since Pat's a preacher, loves to train preachers at Omaha Bible Church and around the world, India, South Africa, I wanted to ask Pat a little bit about preaching today. We will talk today about the battle and the bad side of preaching and also the hope for preaching, because there are great preachers and there are horrible preachers.

We'll talk about that here on No Compromise Radio. So Pat, if I ask you the question, what is the state of evangelical preaching today? What would you say? Bah. Muy mal. Muy mal. Whatever language you put it in.

Well, sadly, it's not very good, but there's always motivation then in all of that. You get motivated to preach the word as the Bible says you're supposed to, you have to. But on the best side of things, you have guys trying to acknowledge the authority of the Bible, and so it's meant to be preached, it's not meant to be shared, so I like that.

But as you know, it's not too good. It's hard to, you know how it is even here at Bethlehem Bible Church, people drive from too far to come and hear God's word preached and Christ exalted. You'd think that on every street corner where there's a church, there'd be great preaching.

Why is it? I mean, we understand why, but why is it men won't just get up and say, I'm a steward, I wanna be faithful, everything that I have received from the Lord I now want to be faithful with, and I will just get up and preach the Bible.

Maybe they haven't taken a homiletics class, maybe they don't understand redemptive historical preaching, but they say, let's think, maybe Jonah, and just for a few weeks, get up and preach through Jonah.

It's actually an easy mental concept to say to yourself, I'll preach through the book of the Bible it's difficult to do practically, but I don't know why people will fall for every other thing besides teach the Bible.

So why won't men just stand up and preach the Bible? I'm in love with myself, my beautiful self. Now, if you don't know who that's from, I'm not gonna say the band's name that he just quoted. Yeah, at the end of the day, it's pride, Pat's right.

You're right, Pat, because I've got a better way to do it than to teach the Bible. Is that what these pastors are saying, basically? I think even if they will never say it, even if they'll say what they believe in 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17, the Bible is the word of God.

The true proof is if they preach it, chapter four, verse two. So I think that's what it ends up being. And I know you think the same way, if you have, and plus there's only one way. If it says preach the word, preach the text, inspired text, there's a million other things to do.

And so I'd like to preach my opinions. I'd like to preach the opinions of my favorite author. I would like to help you so you'd give me the credit instead of being the passive, in a sense, passive herald who's delivering a message on behalf of the sovereign king.

If we thought in those terms, I guess it gets back to a wrong view of God. God is, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, you're exactly right. Don't you think it's also fear of men? You've got these pastors, these effeminate pastors, and they don't want to offend anybody in the congregation.

Maybe it's a big giver. Maybe it's a very influential matriarch or patriarch. And so they're afraid. And so we have to have what we want. And we've hired a preacher to come give us less than the word of God.

Now do it or you're fired. And there goes your pension. There goes everything else. And you've got the pastoral search committee right there in chapter four, heaping up teachers, literally, right? Heaping up teachers, amassing teachers in accordance to their own desires.

Every time I get called by pastoral search committee, I kind of think of that passage, unfortunately. That is so true. Pat and Mike Ebendroth today on No Compromise Radio Ministry. We are brothers in Christ.

We are brothers from the same mother and father. And we are brothers when it comes to preaching the word of God. You have pastoral search committees in the Bible. And you're right, Pat. It's in 2 Timothy chapter four, verses three and following.

Let's listen to this passage. For the time will come when they will not endure sound or hygienic doctrine, but wanting to have their ears tickled instead of punched or boxed or convicted, they will accumulate or literally heap up, heap up teachers for themselves, not for the glory of God.

Big stack of resumes. Yeah, absolutely. In accordance to scriptural mandates, in accordance to what the Bible says, in accordance to 1 Timothy chapter three, elder qualifications, in accordance to 1st chapter of Titus, elder qualifications, no.

But according to their own? Desires. Desires. And Pat, doesn't that explain everything? You get a group of about six people. They're the movers and shakers of the church. They influence, they give, they cordon off, and four or five ladies and a couple men just for good show.

And they're going to pick the new pastor. You are, and we're going to hire him, and later we'll fire him too. Watch out for the people that pick you up at the airport. What do you mean by that? That's an old slogan, and it holds very true for most cases, not everyone.

They're the ones that are going to be there and extend the right hand of fellowship and be kind and gracious. And they're the ones that seem like they're going to hire you and your best friends end up being your worst enemies.

Sometimes, sadly, because they really weren't looking for the word of God, unadulterated, unhindered, they really wanted their new hired gun to accomplish their plan for the church. Their plan, small T.

They want to pick you up. They want you to do what they want you to do. And they're going to make sure that you understand the church layout and you understand the players and how things work here. Sounds like we're being pretty negative here on all this stuff, because some churches are trying to get good guys and good men who are going to preach the word, obviously.

It's true. So if you're listening today, and by the way, I just met another pastor a couple of days ago who listens to the show. So if you're a pastor or if you're a lay person and you're listening, let's just talk about that for a minute, Pat.

What would be the best way to hire a new pastor? You're a local church and you're smaller. You want Christ heralded verse by verse. You want faithfulness. You don't care about good administrator, good CEO, good old boy, Marlboro man.

You'd like to hire a pastor. What would be some quick advice points that you would give this church? Well, where you'd want to start is with the qualifications of a pastor, not the cultural qualifications, but 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1.

What does God say the man of God must be? And maybe then read the pastoral letters, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus. What does this guy's job description look like? And certainly it involves being fearless when it comes to heralding the exalted Christ in the text.

And so I would go there. Maybe you're a smaller church looking. I would go to another church that you know has a track record for faithfulness, training men, get some advice, get some counsel. Don't try to do it by yourself.

Just get some good fellowship in finding such a man that's going to be humble, godly, leading. And again, maybe even that point of humility, Mike, it's interesting to think about when we think of humility sometimes in our culture, it's you don't have strong opinions about anything, and you'd never say what's true, thus saith the Lord, when in fact humility from a Christian perspective is when God says, preach my word, you're going to preach his word and not just say, well, we can't really know or something like that.

That's excellent. True humility yields itself with obedience under the Lord. We are under the word of God, under God's authority. We are his slaves, we are his bond servants, depending on your translation.

Pat, I know you've done this with churches, and we have as well here at Bethlehem, where there are other churches, they don't want to reinvent the wheel. Maybe they don't have a plurality of godly leadership.

And so they say, could you help us hire someone? And I always tell people, Pat, I'd love to help you. Now, I'm not the final authority. I'm not some bishop. I'm not some kind of external authority. You have the authority there at your local church, but I'd love to listen to his sermons.

I'd love to help you critique who he is, sit in on some of the interviews, because this is the most important decision you will make as a church. Who is going to feed you the word of God? Because some people don't feed.

I'm looking at 2 Corinthians 4 right now, Pat. We have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God. I think of adultery, and I think of some pretty extreme examples from Hosea and Gomer, and just how it breaks the marriage bond and how in a human relationship, adultery is horrible.

How about adulterating the word of God? Pretty strong words from the Apostle Paul, and we almost act as if that never happens in any case, in any way, shape, or form, when in fact it happens all the time.

To borrow another metaphor, not the one Paul is using, but it's related, it seems like the worst thing we do in our culture, and it really is a horrible, worst thing, but when it comes to the Bible, sometimes I say if I need to get somebody's attention, it seems to me like you're molesting the Bible, trying to get it to prove your agenda, and it's just gross, it's disgusting, because we've got the beautiful, perfect, pure word of God that needs to be preached, and that means you handle it very carefully with reverence and awe, and that's the great thing about men of God who truly want to preach God's word.

Christ is exalted, and we handle it carefully. That's excellent. Pat, let's talk a little bit more about evangelical preaching today in general. Tell me a few of the preachers that you think preach well.

Certainly, these aren't going to be perfect men or anything like that, but faithfully, regularly, they exalt Christ, they teach the full counsel of God. There are men that you have, I guess I could put it this way, who do you have on your iPod?

Who do you listen to? On my iPod, and we probably have similar ones. It's not just genetic, but it's affection as well, but I listen to Sinclair Ferguson Sunday morning, Sunday night, so through the week, I really like him, appreciate him.

It's not just the Scottish accent, but faithful, wanting to explain the scriptures in a way where his people can understand and be edified, and with a high view of God. I love listening to his messages.

I listen to Al Muller preaching, as well as his radio program. I listen to John MacArthur, S. Lewis Johnson, and that's off the top of my head, and No Compromise Radio. I don't need it. Well, let's talk about people that you listen to only because you have to say to yourself, I can't believe they just said that.

I can't believe they're doing that. You know, little snippets, five minutes here, six minutes there, people that just take the Bible and just make it walk on all fours, do bad things to it. Are there a few folks out there that you would say to the listeners at No Compromise Radio, don't listen to them?

Always controversial, always provocative. What is it in that order? Well, let's just kind of make it easy. Here's a little underhand slow ball. Joel Osteen. Joel Osteen is a legalist, and so I would never listen to him other than to get motivated not to be legalistic.

Pat, can you believe the other day Benny Hinn was calling out Joel Osteen? That was one of the funnier things that you've ever sent me as far as a link to. The amazing thing was Benny Hinn was right, even though he himself was a heretic, and I think it was about market share.

You know, he's got to put down the fellow Texan because Joel Osteen is competition. That was one of the most funny things I've ever seen in my life. Funny, shameful, interesting. Here is Benny Hinn calling out Joel Osteen for not preaching the exclusivity of Christ Jesus.

And amazingly enough, Benny Hinn actually was clearly explaining the gospel and the message, and I guess in that sense, I rejoice like the Apostle Paul did. I think his motives are wrong, but he actually was preaching the right text.

He wasn't being the heretic of chapter three of Philippians. He was actually preaching Christ. It was staggering. How wild would it be? And of course, the Lord has enough power to do this. Benny Hinn's just recently talked about his divorce.

What if God would use that to humble him and save him and then actually preach? It would be amazing. Sadly, I think he's deceived and deceiving, but. Yes. Yeah, Joel Osteen is a piece of work, and it just shows the state of the church.

But the reason I said he's a legalist is because, and people don't usually think of that, because he's always giving rules, principles, laws, and he's not preaching Christ crucified. And it's just a detestable thing and sad thing, and makes me want to humbly preach God's word all the more so that people can see hope and forgiveness and justification in Christ and in Christ alone.

That is so true. Second Corinthians chapter four, Paul said to the church of Corinth, and of course, to all the churches that would ever dare open the Bible, we do not preach ourselves. And I would say, Pat, we do not preach about you and all your felt needs and all the things that you want.

We do not preach ourselves. And by the way, Paul could say, I'm an apostle. By the way, I would love to sit down and listen to an apostle talk about himself because that would be pretty fascinating, right?

If there's no gospel, no Jesus, that'd probably be the most fascinating talk you could ever go listen to. Forget Tony Robbins and forget, you know, listening to Rudy Giuliani speak. I like speakers. I like people who talk.

Can you imagine sitting down and listening to an apostle? And Paul says, we don't preach ourselves. I don't preach you, Corinth. I don't preach about the apostles. I don't preach about myself, but Christ Jesus as Lord.

When it comes to ourselves and ourselves as your bond servants, for whose sake? For your sake, for our sake, for the apostle's sake, for Jesus' sake. And so show me a guy out in the middle of nowhere.

Maybe you're listening today on No Compromise Radio. Nobody knows about you and nobody will ever know about you, but you have been known by God and you know him and you faithfully preach the gospel. We applaud that.

I would applaud preachers who no one knows about and they will faithfully preach Christ week by week by week by week. Amen, absolutely. And that ultimately is what it ends up being about because it's about Christ anyway and not about fame for us.

There's no power in this legalism of Olsteen or the signs and wonders extremities of Benny Hinn. If you're going to offer something to people, shouldn't you offer them something that actually can change their lives, transform them from the inside out?

Not external conformity to some kind of rules for a while, but we're talking about the power of the resurrection that can dwell within a Christian, as it were energized by the word of God. The next verse in 2 Corinthians 4, Pat, you know the verse well, for God who said, light shall shine out of darkness.

The creative power of God that can create the universe with the word is the one who has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. We preach this Christ who is so powerful, he transforms people's lives from the inside out.

That's the exact opposite of legalism. Amen, absolutely. So tell me a little bit more about some of these false teachers that you listen to, Pat. I'm just kidding. I think we've figured out who listens to them.

You're the one that sends me the links. Oh, that is so bad. You're just kind of like Pastor Steve. You're in here, it's my show. You know, I always make the guests first kiss the ring that I have here.

I call it my kind of papal ring, and they kind of genuflect a little bit, and then the show's all about me. Always biblical, always provocative, always about me, and what I want to talk about, always in that order.

Christ-Focused Preaching and the Gospel in Ephesians

That's true. So in terms of evangelicalism, there is a resurgence, I think, Pat, for reformed preaching, that is, making sure people understand the scriptures which teach God is sovereign. And I think there's also a desire for young ministers and older ones to preach about Christ no matter what.

Now, it's easy to say, oh, let's preach Christ because we're Christians. But walk us through, Pat, some of the difficulties. If you're going to preach through Ephesians for 50 weeks, 20 weeks, 100 weeks, you can fall into the trap not preaching Christ properly even though you're preaching the Bible.

What do I mean by that? Well, what you mean by that, and it is absolutely crucial, and it's something that's dangerous for us because we have a tendency to fall into these kind of traps. So I guess I'm going to preach about myself and confess my own sins first.

Judgment begins with the house of the Lord, or in the house of the Lord. But what you mean by that, Mike, is Ephesians was meant to be read as a letter. It was read in one sitting or heard, maybe if it was read to the church at Ephesus, in one sitting, and it starts with Christ, and it's exalting Christ in redemption, salvation, chapter one, chapter two, chapter three.

And then he starts explaining how you live your life. And so you're into this business of husbands and wives and employers and employees and children and parents. And what we need to remember when we're on the, quote unquote, practical side of things, is we do all those things out of praise and worship to Christ, so that therefore, in chapter four, verse one, is helping us to respond and understand because of what Christ has done, we want to do the right thing out of praise and thanksgiving.

And I just don't think this can be stressed enough, whether it's in Romans or Colossians or Ephesians or quite frankly, anywhere. Somehow the power is in Christ, otherwise it's principles for legalism.

Sadly, so many churches, that's all they give, is a to-do list. It's basically promise keepers, here's another seven things to do. And when we talk about legalism here, today especially, we're not talking about alcohol, cigarettes, and video games.

We're talking about adding works to the gospel. We're talking about Galatians kinds of legal, Galatians type of legalism. Here are these extra rules. And when you have rules for Christians, do this for the fulfilled life, do this out of this kind of obligation, do this and then God blesses.

Just everything is backwards. And so Pat, when you were talking about Ephesians chapter one through six, so many times, here's who Jesus is, here's what the triune God has done. Here's how you are in Christ, in Christ, in Him.

And because you are, act like it. Conduct befitting an officer. And if you're going to tell people to do something, which Pat, you agree we can give people imperatives when you preach. Absolutely, they're all over the place.

But for the Christian, you say, in light of what God has done for you, because you have the spirit of God dwelling in you and you're able to obey, you have a motive to obey, you have a duty to obey, you have a pleasure to obey, therefore obey.

But it's so easy to forget that. And we assume the gospel and we lose sight of the gospel and it's a very dangerous and devastating thing in the long run, especially. Mike, do you think it's true to say that preaching can be biblical but not distinctly Christian?

That's exactly right. You could preach through, I mean, you could preach through the book of Proverbs. And if you weren't careful, you'd just tell people what to do the whole time. I love the book of Proverbs.

I'm sure Jesus memorized the book of Proverbs. He wrote it. Yeah. But you say, how can I talk about Christ today? And so for us here at Bethlehem, what we do, Pat, is I try to make sure the service is distinctly, the worship services on Sunday are distinctly Christian.

Christ-focused, cross-focused, resurrection-focused. Even if you have scripture reading, for instance, Pat, what we try to do, or at least I try to do, and it's my turn for the rotation, if I'm going to be given an imperative-driven message, then I want the scripture to be read talking about who Jesus is and what he's done.

So they get both. That's a great idea. So on the flip side, too, if I'm not giving a lot of imperatives, because sometimes there are sermons where there's nothing to do, right? Romans 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, half of 6.

There's not one thing to do. So then I might give some kind of imperatival reading so that people can say, in light of who I am in Christ positionally, this is what I should therefore do practically. Yeah, respond in worship.

It's just the same at home. You're an ebondroth, you say to your kids, and because mom has loved you and dad has prayed for you and because we are so thankful to God for you and you and the family have meant so much to us and we have poured out our life for you, our money for you, our health insurance for you, because of all that.

Now you just hit your sister a few minutes ago. Because of all that, what do you think you should have done? Dad, I shouldn't have hit my sister. And dad, would you please forgive me? You don't even have to tell them what to do if you remind them enough of their position in the family.

Privilege, position, absolutely. But I think this is a big deal, even in circles where we would run, where hermeneutics are important and exegesis and languages. And before you know it, it's 17 principles from David's life that you can follow and live a successful Christian life.

And I just about want to lose my cool and say, what about Romans 4? David was such a big, fat sinner. He needed imputed righteousness. Why would I want to pattern my life after him? Absolutely. No Compromise Radio, Mike and Pat Avendroth, two big, fat sinners.

OmahaBibleChurch .org for a big, fat sinner sermon collection.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Avendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible-teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God's Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.