February 10, 2025 Show with Cody Lawrence on “The Woke Right: A Dangerous Hybrid”

The Show’s Mission, Host Update, and Guest Introduction

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own.

Questions. And now here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon, Cumberland.

County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of February 2025.

As you may detect from my voice, my health continues to improve radically, actually, from my bout with congestive heart failure. I'm not saying I'm completely out of the woods yet. Time will tell after future medical exams and so on, but I am feeling better every day.

I have not been out of breath, even though I have walked great distances. My appetite seems to be back in full force, which may not be the greatest thing in the world, I don't know. But I think I lost too much weight, and I've gained at least a little bit of it back, and at least I am getting the nutrients and everything that I need since my eating habits have improved.

And I just thank each and every one of you from the very depths of my heart for your prayers, the hundreds of you who have contacted me, letting me know that you're praying, that your churches are praying, and I thank you so much.

Thank you also for praying for my sister Mary, who had her leg amputated last Friday, and the procedure went well, and she amazingly seems in good spirits. Please pray for her as she has rehabilitation awaiting her, and please pray that the Lord not only blesses her physically, but spiritually draws her closer to himself than ever before, and that she has a deeper and more biblically sound understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We'll keep you updated on her as well. Also, one last word of praise is that I have received confirmation from my longtime dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries that he will be my guest tomorrow on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

That's Tuesday the 11th of February, and he is also, God willing, going to be speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the church that happens to be the congregation where I am a member, and that is going to take place sometime in late February—I'm sorry, late September or early October.

We do not have an exact date picked yet, or theme for that matter, but I will keep you posted on that as well, and we hope that many of you, either locally or by train, plane, or automobile, get to that meeting at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and we will let you know when we find out from Dr. White the exact date of that speaking engagement.

But I am thrilled to have on the program today a first-time guest. His name is Cody Lawrence, someone in the listening audience of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio recommended I listen and view a podcast he conducted on the theme that we are about to address, and I did listen to and watch that podcast and was very impressed by Cody's research and abundant knowledge on the subject.

And the topic at hand that we are going to be addressing today is the woke-right, a dangerous hybrid. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Cody Lawrence. Thank you so much, brother.

Cody Lawrence’s Background and the Spare No Arrows Podcast

It's an honor to be on the show. And let our listeners know about the Spare No Arrows podcast. Yeah, my podcast is—I started it back in 2020.

I've been doing it for almost five years now, and it kind of started as a response to some bad church experiences that I had and realizing this was kind of during the time that deconstruction was kind of trendy.

And a lot of people were criticizing the church, and they were they were doing it from a leftist perspective, but there weren't a lot of voices who were criticizing actual issues in the church and in the Christian culture but offering biblical solutions.

And so that's what I wanted to do and help equip people to see those issues and then give them biblical solutions. Great.

And can you tell our listeners how they can watch and listen to the Spare. No.

Arrows podcast? Absolutely. I'm on all of the audio platforms. You can just search Spare No Arrows, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all the third-party platforms, too. I'm also search Spare No Arrows, and I'm on X and all the other social media pages under Spare No Arrows, but I'm on X at WC underscore Lawrence.

And I think I've.

Told you that I do love the name, the title of your podcast, Spare No Arrows. Thank you. Well, I would like to give our listeners right away our email address if you have questions for Cody Lawrence. It is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Cody, we have a custom here, a tradition on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first-time guest, such as yourself, before we dive into the main theme that we have selected to discuss, we have that guest give a summary of their Salvation Testimony.

And I'd love to hear your story. Yes, sir. So mine is short, but I'm.

Happy to give more details because obviously I have grown and matured through time. But I was a Christian as long as I can remember. I grew up in a Christian home. My parents are Christians. I loved the Lord as long as I can remember.

But I went through my fair share of theological twists and turns. I grew up in the Pentecostal church until I was in high school and then attended a Methodist church because it happened to have youth programs whenever I was in high school.

And that church also happened to have a female pastor. And at that church, we even took a trip to Saddleback Church and observed their youth ministry and got to listen to a sermon by Rick Warren, which, you know, I.

Never got lost in going back to Saddleback Church ever again. Wow, this is all going downhill.

Yeah, well, it gets better, I promise. So in college, then I started attending a Baptist church, wanted to be more involved in ministry and study theology more, and went to Japan as a missionary for a year after college.

And then I became a youth pastor, actually, which I also have—my opinions on youth ministry have drastically changed since then. But I was a youth pastor at a non-denominational church, a Baptist church, back in the States after Japan.

And then I also at the same time started attending seminary for my MDiv. And at that church that I worked at, I had a tremendously bad experience. It was not a great church to work at. And, you know, that kind of opened my eyes to a lot of issues kind of behind the curtains at church on, like, leadership levels.

And then after that, I got married and my wife and I wanted to search for a church. And it was kind of hard to find a good church because this was also during 2020 when a lot of churches were locked down or requiring masks.

And this also opened my eyes to more like, you know, what really makes a biblical church? And then I started my podcast at the same time to try to help other Christians who were in kind of the same boat that I was, where I was looking for a faithful church and I was trying to, you know, parse through what makes a faithful church and also just kind of broadly cultural issues that moved us in this direction.

And then now I also became convinced of Reform Theology back around the time of seminary or, you know, before I got married, before I moved, or after the time I was a youth pastor. And all of these experiences kind of made me hate false teachers.

I hate unqualified pastors. Also, thus, you know, a lot of the content that I put out at my podcast. And now I'm very happily in a CREC church.

Defining the Woke Right and Its Oxymoronic Nature

Great. Well, we have at hand a very bizarre and fascinating topic that seems oxymoronic, the woke rite. It is mind-boggling that such a phenomenon could actually exist. But if you could tell us a definition of the woke rite and how you came to discover it.

Yeah, it is oxymoronic, and I think that's.

One of the key aspects of it. And the fact that it's oxymoronic, I think, makes a lot of people claim that there is no such thing as the woke rite. Because woke means liberal, and rite means conservative, and you can't be both of those things at the same time.

And I actually agree with that. I agree that you can't be both. I think the oxymoron of the name woke rite kind of demonstrates what's happening. Plainly, the definition that I would use is people who call themselves conservative but act woke.

They act liberal. And I think there is a history that we can discuss over the past few years about how the woke rite kind of developed. And there are a lot of other names that they use. A lot of the woke rite people, they call themselves dissident rite, or they've taken the name recently the new Christian rite.

Somebody kind of popularized the phrase the woke rite for reasons that I'm sure we'll get into.

Later. Now you're talking about people in that ideological movement describing.

Themselves that way? No. So the people that describe themselves, they definitely don't like the phrase woke rite. But most of them, if not all of them, call themselves Christian nationalists. And they like to call themselves the dissident rite.

And they like to call themselves the... And you know, over the past, really just the past year, although there's been a long history kind of leading up to this, it's kind of hard to nail down. Just because a lot of people, they, you know, it's kind of going in different directions.

It's not a very unified movement. And so it's hard to get a definition that they'll actually agree with. But I think at the very key, whenever people use the phrase woke rite to refer to these people, what they mean is they are people who claim to be conservatives, but they act liberal.

I think that's at the very core.

Liberalism, Leftism, and the Speaker’s Definition of the Problem

Of the issue. Now let me ask you a question. I use the term liberal more and more sparingly these days because many who claim to be liberal are actually leftist totalitarians. Liberalism conveys the idea that, especially historically, a decade or more ago, a person who was liberal merely wanted their own ideas presented in the arena of political discourse.

And they basically did not want to be silenced or prohibited or lose their freedom of speech. It's ironic how liberals were once champions of freedom of speech. Now the left has become enemies of it. But would you agree with my assessment that many of the folks who you are describing as liberal are actually leftists?

Yeah, I prefer to.

Use the term leftist myself. Very definitely. I think they claim to be on the right, but they act like leftists. And of course they would disagree with that. They actually call people like me who call them woke right, they call me a leftist.

So that's an interesting dynamic that I'm sure we could get into. You know, you're a leftist because you believe something like the woke right exists. And ironically, whenever they say the woke right doesn't exist and call you a leftist for calling them woke right, they're kind of affirming that what I'm saying is true.

That there are actually conservatives who call themselves leftists. It's ironic. They're proving themselves wrong. But yeah, absolutely. Leftist, I think, is a more accurate term.

Well, how did you become aware of the existence of this.

Phenomenon? Yeah, so I think a lot of people, not just my age, but just people in our spheres saw from a mile away, or at least especially in 2020, our eyes were kind of opened to the blatant and obvious oppression of people on the right and even white people coming from the left.

So like the left very actively, I believe, was through things like BLM and the social justice movement and more recently things like DEI initiatives. They want very much to oppress conservatives, oppress white people, because of essentially Marxism.

They think the white people are the people in the positions of power and so we need to destroy them. And so we're going to label them as villains and then put forth all of our resources to crush them.

And I think that really did happen, but over time a lot of white people, a lot of Christians, kind of got beat down by that propaganda. And they started to think maybe that well, no being white is good and they're the villains.

And so they kind of, it seems like they've kind of rebounded far to the other side to say like, well no, the white people are the good guys and the bad guys have to be somebody like, I don't know, the black people or the Jews or things like that.

And so I think that's kind of how this developed through time. And the thing that kind of made me aware of it in the first place was because I was very active in resisting and fighting the social justice movement back in 2020.

And this was the time when I first started my podcast. This was when churches were closing down for COVID and I wanted to resist this as hard as I could. So I studied the social justice movement, critical race theory.

I learned as much as I could about this stuff. So I think it was easier for me or easier for people who were kind of in the in the trenches or trying to keep their churches open during this time to see like this stuff is bad.

And so now the stuff that's happening happening recently kind of is the same thing. But instead of coming from people who are calling themselves leftists, they're calling from, they're coming from people who call themselves conservatives.

And so it's easy for us to see because like we've we've already fought this just a.

Few years ago. It's just happening again. Right. And can you be, and I am not squeamish about you being as specific as you want to be. I mean you've been very specific on your own podcast. So can you be more clear about these specific individuals, churches, ministries, movements, media, media individuals that you are referring to as fostering this problematic and dangerous hybrid that we.

Have been discussing? Yeah. One, well it seems like this kind of all came to a head when there was a pastor named Tobias Riemenschneider that everybody who knows anything about the woke right stuff, they've heard about this story and they've probably heard the the common narrative that's been pushed where like.

He lied about stuff and whatever. Yeah, a lot of that was born out of me interviewing Tobias, who's a dear friend of mine. And they, I think I was might have been the first one to interview Tobias on his complaints about the dangers of anti-semitism growing in professedly Reformed circles, and they were attacking him based on the answers he gave to my questions on that interview.

And by the way, you could look up that interview and other interviews I've conducted with Tobias Riemenschneider at ironsharpensironradio .com and type in Tobias in the search engine, T-O-B-I-A-S, but if you could continue.

Yeah, so that's when it kind of came to a head, but like I said, I think this has been kind of a long time coming and it's been building just from, you know, a lot of a lot of people being beat down for so long and developing this bitterness and hatred towards just, you know, they have to come up with some kind of villain and in this case the the villain that this group of people have chosen is the.

And so people like Tobias recognized this very early, probably being a, you know, being a German Reformed Christian. He is much more aware of the atrocities of Germany in World War II than most people actually being from Germany.

And so he called out some of his concerns, as you know, obviously. And then the, I mean, you can explain the story specifically with the situation that he was in better than I could, but my understanding is there was a person who left his church who went to someone else's church named Joel Webben.

I did a video on Joel Webben and we can talk about him more later if you'd like, but this this member went to Joel Webben's church and started developing these, what what Tobias assumed to be some like dangerous anti-semitic thoughts.

And so he wanted to express his concerns and try to turn this man around and help Joel Webben to try to, you know, realize that this guy needs to be disciplined. And discipline doesn't mean kick him out of your church.

It means like have a conversation with him and then if it escalates to the point where he needs to be kicked out of your church, be willing to do that because that's that's another thing that they've kind of fought back against the idea where even even Dr. James White said like people like this need to be disciplined.

And a lot of the people on the other side are like, James White said he needs to be kicked out of out of the church. Like you really want to excommunicate people for asking questions. And it's like, that's not what he said.

Did these people not know what church discipline means? Church discipline means you start with having a conversation. And then if they if they incessantly refuse to repent of actual sin that they're being accused of, then, you know, hopefully it never gets to the point.

But yes, eventually it could get to the point of you kicking somebody out of their church. And that could happen over anything. Like a person could have a tiny, tiny sin that if they're actually confronted about and if it's serious enough to confront them about, if it escalates to the point where they actually absolutely refuse to repent, then that that does actually show some kind of spiritual problem with a person if they're actually sinning and if they're actually confronted by it.

But anyway, so that.

Holocaust Revisionism, Anti-Semitism, and Joel Webben

Yeah, I was I was just going to say that one of the elements of this anti-Semitism expressed by this former member of Tobias' church is a denial of the Holocaust, or at the very least, a radical revision of the facts of the Holocaust and softening the atrocities committed by Hitler and the Nazis against the Jews.

From what I understand, this individual did not and does not, unless something changed, profess to be a neo-Nazi, an admirer of Hitler as an individual, but nonetheless believes that all of the accusations hurled at Hitler and the Nazis, especially in regard to the persecution of the Jews, have been overblown in this person's mind, exaggerated, completely falsified, and have basically been reduced to the Jews were considered enemies of the German people and therefore they were not sent to death camps, they were sent to prisoner-of-war camps.

And the reason why so many of them died was because Winston Churchill's stranglehold on the German economy towards the end of World War II caused great difficulty with the feeding of the German people and therefore prisoners of war were put last on the ladder of importance to be fed.

And this explanation of the Holocaust, which is bad enough, you have people being kidnapped from their own homes that sometimes have been in families for centuries, law-abiding Jewish people, some of them even war heroes of World War I fighting for the Germans and their families and so on, being kidnapped and dragged off to these camps, having all of their possessions robbed from them.

And Joel Webben presented this in at least one video as an acceptable explanation or theory. He was not radically opposed to this. He said he was not going to publicly reveal exactly what he believed the Holocaust actually was, especially in regard to stats, numbers of Jews who died, etc.

But he was basically saying, what's all the hubbub about this former members of Tobias' church's view? He was basically saying, this is no big deal. I mean, this is horrific, isn't it? It's absolutely revealing some very serious sin going on in the mind of somebody who could view this as an acceptable, not only explanation of the Holocaust, but an acceptable action of the German people, of the German government back then.

Yeah, I think the kind of the direction that a lot of these people are coming from, I think some of them certainly are absolutely malicious. I think they're evil people. I think some of them are just deceived.

And I think probably a very small number of people are actually curious because they realize that, well, the government has lied to us about a lot of things. There are a lot of historical things and characters that we know about that's actually twisted.

Like Martin Luther King Jr. is not the good guy that our public schools want us to believe that he is and things like that. And so it's like from that, we realize, oh, well, kind of our government's lying to us about things.

And then they go farther and farther and farther until it's to the point where they say, well, maybe the Holocaust never happened. Now, what these guys would say who wants to push this actual anti-Semitism stuff or defend the people who are, will say things like, well, it's OK just to ask questions.

And to that, I completely agree. Of course, it's OK just to ask questions. But are they just asking questions? I think now like. Culturally, we've we've gone far past just asking questions, and if you spend too much time on a on X looking at some of these people's posts and the comments under the post, the actual blatant anti-Semitism is I mean, it's obvious like it's obvious to see now.

And so comparing this to like where we were a few months ago when that phone call with Tobias happened, it's like Tobias was right. Actually, just recently, just a couple of days ago, there were a lot of big, relatively big accounts that were sharing.

Tobias was right. And and like this, all this controversy and these attacks that he received were were like he's he's been totally vindicated.

Oh, really? You're talking about people who were either. Silent, neutral or even opposing Tobias have come to the realization that he was correct.

Yeah, it's I mean, I don't know, maybe some people, but regardless of what position they were in before, maybe a lot of them were people who supported him in the past, or maybe just some people didn't know.

Like whenever whenever this thing, the phone call situation first happened, I I didn't know what the truth was before the phone call was released. Like, you know, I I knew very little. The thing that mattered the most to me that I saw was the behavior of the people on both sides of the argument on on like the Joel Webb inside.

There was a lot of vitriol and anger. And, you know, I didn't know if they were lying or not. But on the other side, on Tobias's side and the people who were defending him, there was a lot of like, well, let's have a conversation about this and let's reveal the phone call and see what really happened.

And like one side was interested in talking and the other wasn't. And so I don't know what side of the the coin these accounts landed on back then, but now just a lot of these big name accounts are like, oh, wow, Tobias was right the whole time.

And, you know, I'm one of them sharing like this, like the stuff that these people are saying now just vindicates the concerns that Tobias had back then, which kind of shows the the attacks that he received and the kind of like, ah, they're just asking questions, whatever it's like.

Well, they weren't just asking questions and you just didn't have your eyes open. And so, like, I think one of the jobs of a pastor is to be able to care for his flock and lead them in a in a good direction.

And if you're leading them off the cliff of actual Nazism, if you're leading them towards following these people and just recently, Joel Webben posted a like somebody posted a list of accounts that a lot of like this kind of Christian nationalist type of person follows and included in those accounts were Corey Mahler and some guy named Woe, who is both a part of the Stone Choir podcast, who is who's probably the most blatant example of, quote, unquote,.

Reformed Christian anti-Semitism. I mean, he's the most open about having an affection and an admiration for Hitler. I mean, you know, even with photos of Hitler in his propaganda and so on.

Yeah, there's a famous post from Corey Mahler that you can look up. I just looked it up earlier today just to confirm that he didn't delete it yet. He is like boldly proclaiming that Hitler was a good guy.

And this post in particular said something like, oh, he says Christ is king and Hitler was his favorite faithful servant. That's the.

Post. I mean, it's absolute nonsense. It's absolutely. And he is an excommunicated Lutheran.

Right. And he was included in a list that somebody shared of a lot of these type of Christian nationalist person following each other. And then Joel Webben replied to this and said, hey, this is a fantastic list of people to follow.

Really, because he has publicly said in attempts to distance himself from and to show you my age, I've already forgotten the excommunicated Lutheran, Corey Mahler. That's his name. I just blanked out there.

He has tried to distance himself from Corey Mahler by saying he's an jerk and things like that. So that is an interesting development that you just mentioned.

Yeah, it seems like he's like it seems to me looking at this from from the perspective that I am that a lot of this this stuff is moving in this lightning fast direction. There was somebody I could pull up the tweet here and quote it exactly.

But there was somebody who I forgot his name who posted something like. Ray, he said, like, race is real, Jews are evil, something like that, and then Stephen Wolfe at the same time, who is associated with a lot of these guys, said this person is a is a good friend and a faithful Christian, something like that.

And and one of the and it's like if I had a friend who said Hitler was a good guy, I would I would want to punch that friend in the face or not be his friend anymore. Like I would I would pull a St. Nicholas like this is you can't, you know, and then some.

Pelagius, is that the the where that story comes from? St. Nicholas slapped. Pelagius, was it?

I believe so. Yeah. Yeah, too. And what's what's good about that is is the purpose that St. Nicholas punched him was because he's like, I really thought that that was the only way that I could reach him because words like words do not convince a person who believes something so outrageously crazy of the truth.

And but one interesting thing that I'm noticing in all this, and it's OK to notice things, it's OK to ask questions and notice. That's all I'm doing is. This association that a lot of these people have with each other, it is kind of revealing.

Like I did, the way it was areas, I'm sorry, it was not Pelagius, it was areas.

That sounds more right. Yeah. A lot of these people, they have they're they're friends with each other. And so even if I wouldn't necessarily call certain people like a Nazi or you, you don't necessarily hate Jews or whatever, they they're good friends or they support or they endorse people who do.

And that is it's so strange and it's weird and it's like that's why people are believing maybe maybe these other guys hate Jews, too, you know. Yeah, well, we have to go to our.

First commercial break and we'll pick up right where you left off. Our email address once again is Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state and country.

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That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with my guest, Cody Lawrence, and we are discussing the woke right. If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.