February 10, 2025 Show with Cody Lawrence on “The Woke Right: A Dangerous Hybrid”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

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And now here's your host Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 10th day of February 2025.

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As you may detect from my voice, my health continues to improve radically, actually, from my bout with congestive heart failure.

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I'm not saying I'm completely out of the woods yet. Time will tell after future medical exams and so on, but I am feeling better every day

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I have not been out of breath even though I have walked great distances.

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My appetite seems to be back in full force, which may not be the greatest thing in the world,

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I don't know, but I think I lost too much weight and I've gained at least a little bit of it back and at least

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I am getting the nutrients and everything that I need since my eating habits have improved.

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And I just thank each and every one of you from the very depths of my heart for your prayers, the hundreds of you who have contacted me, letting me know that you're praying, that your churches are praying, and I thank you so much.

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Thank you also for praying for my sister Mary, who had her leg amputated last

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Friday, and the procedure went well, and she amazingly seems in good spirits.

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Please pray for her as she has rehabilitation awaiting her, and please pray that the

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Lord not only blesses her physically but spiritually and draws her closer to himself than ever before, and that she has a deeper and more biblically sound understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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We'll keep you updated on her as well. Also, one last word of praise is that I have received confirmation from my longtime dear friend

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries that he will be my guest tomorrow on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio.

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That's Tuesday, the 11th of February, and he is also, God willing, going to be speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the church that happens to be the congregation where I am a member, and that is going to take place sometime in late

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September or early October.

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We do not have an exact date picked yet or theme, for that matter, but I will keep you posted on that as well, and we hope that many of you, either locally or by train, plane, or automobile, get to that meeting at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and we will let you know when we find out from Dr.

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White the exact date of that speaking engagement. But I am thrilled to have on the program today a first -time guest.

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His name is Cody Lawrence, someone in the listening audience of Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio recommended

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I listen and view a podcast he conducted on the theme that we are about to address, and I did listen to and watch that podcast and was very impressed by Cody's research and abundant knowledge on the subject, and the topic at hand that we are going to be addressing today is

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The Woke Right, A Dangerous Hybrid. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Cody Lawrence.

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Thank you so much, brother. It's an honor to be on the show. And let our listeners know about the

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Spare No Arrows podcast. Yeah, my podcast is—I started it back in 2020.

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I've been doing it for almost five years now, and it kind of started as a response to some bad church experiences that I had and realizing this was kind of during the time that deconstruction was kind of trendy, and a lot of people were criticizing the church, and they were doing it from a leftist perspective, but there weren't a lot of voices who were criticizing actual issues in the church and in the

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Christian culture, but offering biblical solutions. And so that's what I wanted to do and help equip people to see those issues and then give them biblical solutions.

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Great. And can you tell our listeners how they can watch and listen to the

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Spare No Arrows podcast? Absolutely. I'm on all of the audio platforms.

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You can just search Spare No Arrows, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all the third -party platforms, too.

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I'm also on YouTube. I do video podcasts. You can also search Spare No Arrows. And I'm on X and all the other social media pages under Spare No Arrows, but I'm on X at WC underscore

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Lawrence. And I think I've told you that I do love the name, the title of your podcast,

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Spare No Arrows. Thank you. Well, I would like to give our listeners right away our email address if you have questions for Cody Lawrence.

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It is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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That's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. And Cody, we have a custom here, a tradition on Iron Churp and Zion Radio.

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Whenever we have a first -time guest such as yourself, before we dive into the main theme that we have selected to discuss, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony, and I'd love to hear your story.

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Yes, sir. So mine is short, but I'm happy to give more details because obviously

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I have grown and matured through time, but I was a Christian as long as I can remember. I grew up in a

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Christian home. My parents are Christians. I loved the Lord as long as I can remember, but I went through my fair share of theological twists and turns.

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I grew up in the Pentecostal Church until I was in high school and then attended a

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Methodist Church because it happened to have youth programs whenever I was in high school, and that church also happened to have a female pastor.

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And at that church, we even took a trip to Saddleback Church and observed their youth ministry and got to listen to a sermon by Rick Warren, which

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I would have no interest in going back to Saddleback Church ever again.

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Wow, this is all going downhill. Yeah, it gets better,

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I promise. So in college, then I started attending a Baptist Church, wanted to be more involved in ministry and study theology more, and went to Japan as a missionary for a year after college.

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And then I became a youth pastor, actually, which I also have my opinions on youth ministry have drastically changed since then.

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But I was a youth pastor at a non -denominational church, a

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Baptist Church back in the States after Japan. And then I also at the same time started attending seminary for my

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MDiv. And at that church that I worked at, I had a tremendously bad experience.

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It was not a great church to work at. And, you know, that kind of opened my eyes to a lot of issues kind of behind the curtains at church and on like leadership levels.

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And then after that, I got married and my wife and I wanted to search for a church. And it was kind of hard to find a good church because this was also during 2020 when a lot of churches were locked down or requiring masks.

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And this also opened my eyes to more like, you know, what what really makes a biblical church?

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And, and then I started my podcast at the same time to try to help other Christians who were in kind of the same boat that I was where I was looking for a faithful church.

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And I was trying to, you know, parse through what makes a faithful church and also just kind of broadly cultural issues that moved us in this direction.

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And then now I also became convinced of reform theology back around the time of seminary or, you know, before I got married, before I moved or after the time

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I was a youth pastor. And all of these experiences kind of made me hate false teachers.

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I hate unqualified pastors. Also, thus, you know, a lot of the content that I put out at my podcast.

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And now I'm in a very happily in a CREC church. Great. Well, we have at hand a very bizarre and fascinating topic that seems oxymoronic.

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The woke rite. It is mind -boggling that such a phenomenon could actually exist.

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But if you could tell us a definition of the woke rite and how you came to discover it.

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Yeah, it is oxymoronic. And I think that's one of the key aspects of it. And the fact that it's oxymoronic,

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I think, makes a lot of people claim that there is no such thing as the woke rite, because woke means liberal and rite means conservative.

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And you can't be both of those things at the same time. And I actually agree with that. I agree that you can't be both.

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I think the oxymoron of the name woke rite kind of demonstrates what's happening.

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Plainly, the definition that I would use is people who call themselves conservative, but act woke.

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They act liberal. And I think there is like a history that we can discuss like over the past few years about how the woke rite kind of developed.

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And there are a lot of other names that they use. A lot of the woke rite people, they call themselves dissident rite or they've taken the name recently, the new

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Christian rite. Somebody kind of popularized the phrase the woke rite for reasons that I'm sure we'll get into later.

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Now, you're talking about people in that ideological movement describing themselves that way?

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No. So the people that describe themselves, they definitely don't like the phrase woke rite, but most of them, if not all of them, call themselves

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Christian nationalists and they like to call themselves the dissident rite and they like to call themselves the new

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Christian rite. And you follow over the past, really just the past year, although there's been a long history kind of leading up to this, it's kind of hard to nail down just because a lot of people, they, you know, it's kind of going in different directions.

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It's not a very unified movement. And so it's hard to get a definition that they'll actually agree with.

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But I think at the very key, whenever people use the phrase woke rite to refer to these people, what they mean is they are people who claim to be conservatives, but they act liberal.

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I think that's at the very core of the issue. Now, let me ask you a question. I use the term liberal more and more sparingly these days because many who claim to be liberal are actually leftist totalitarians.

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Liberalism conveys the idea that, especially historically, a decade or more ago, a person who was liberal merely wanted their own ideas presented in the arena of political discourse, and they basically did not want to be silenced or prohibited or lose their freedom of speech.

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It's ironic how liberals were once champions of freedom of speech. Now the left has become enemies of it.

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But would you agree with my assessment that many of the folks who you are describing as liberal are actually leftists?

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Yeah, I prefer to use the term leftist myself. Very definitely. I think they they claim to be on the right, but they they act like leftists.

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And of course, they would disagree with that. They actually call people like me who call them woke right. They call me a leftist. So that's that's an interesting dynamic that I'm sure we could get into.

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You know, you're a leftist because you don't you you believe something like the woke right exists. And ironically, whenever they say the woke right doesn't exist and call you a leftist for calling them woke right, they're kind of affirming that what

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I'm saying is true, that there are actually conservatives who call themselves leftists. It's ironic.

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They're proving themselves wrong. But yeah, absolutely. Leftist, I think, is a more accurate term. Yeah. Well, how did you become aware of this, of the existence of this phenomenon?

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Yeah, so I I think a lot of people, not just my age, but just people in in our spheres saw from a mile away or at least especially in 2020, our eyes were kind of opened to the to the blatant and obvious oppression of people on the right and even white people coming from the left.

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So like the left very actively, I believe, was through things like BLM and the social justice movement and more recently, things like D .I.

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initiatives. They want very much to oppress conservatives, oppress white people because of essentially

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Marxism. They think the white people are the people in the positions of power. And so we need to destroy them.

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And so we're going to label them as villains and then put forth all of our resources to crush them.

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And I think I think that really did happen. But over time, a lot of a lot of white people, a lot of Christians kind of got beat down by that propaganda.

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And they started to think maybe that, like, well, no, being white is good and they're the villains.

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And so they kind of they it seems like they've kind of rebounded far to the other side to say, like, well, no, the white people are the good guys and the bad guys have to be somebody like,

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I don't know, the black people or the Jews or things like that. And so I think that's kind of how this developed through time.

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And the thing that that kind of made me aware of it in the first place was because I I was very active in resisting and fighting the social justice movement back in 2020.

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And this was the time when I first started my podcast. This was when churches were closing down for covid. And I wanted to resist this as hard as I could.

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So I studied the social justice movement, critical race theory. I learned as much as I could about this stuff.

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So I think it was easier for me or easier for people who were kind of in the in the trenches or trying to keep their churches open during this time to see like this stuff is bad.

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And so now the stuff that's happening happening recently kind of is the same thing.

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But instead of coming from people who are calling themselves leftists, they're calling from they're coming from people who call themselves conservatives.

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And so it's easy for us to see because like we've we've already fought this just a few years ago.

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It's just happening again. Right. And can you be

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I am not squeamish about you being as specific as you want to be.

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I mean, you've been very specific on your own podcast. So can you be more clear about these specific individuals, churches, ministries, movements, media and media individuals that you are referring to as fostering this problematic and dangerous hybrid that we have been discussing?

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Yeah, one. Well, it seems like this kind of all came to a head when there was a pastor named

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Tobias Riemenschneider that everybody who knows anything about the woke right stuff, they've heard about this story and they've probably heard the common narrative that's been pushed or like he lied about stuff and whatever.

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Yeah, a lot of that was born out of me interviewing Tobias, who's a dear friend of mine. And they

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I think I was might have been the first one to interview Tobias on his complaints about the dangers of anti -Semitism growing in professedly reformed circles.

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And they were attacking him based on the answers he gave to my questions on that interview.

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And by the way, you could look up that interview and other interviews I've conducted with Tobias Riemenschneider at IronSharpensIronRadio .com

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and type in Tobias in the search engine, T -O -B -I -A -S.

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But if you could continue. Yeah, so that's when it kind of came to a head. But like I said,

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I think this has been kind of a long time coming and it's been building just from, you know, a lot of a lot of people being beat down for so long and developing this bitterness and hatred towards just, you know, they have to come up with some kind of villain.

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And in this case, the villain that this group of people have chosen is the Jews. And so people like Tobias recognize this very early, probably being a, you know, being a

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German reformed Christian. He he is much more aware of the atrocities of Germany in World War II than most people actually being from Germany.

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And so he called out some of his concerns, as you know, obviously. And and then the

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I mean, you can explain the story specifically with with the situation that he was in better than I could.

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But my understanding is there was a person who left his church who went to someone else's church named

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Joel Webben. I did a video on Joel Webben and we can talk about him more later if you'd like.

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But this this member went to Joel Webben's church and started developing these. What what

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Tobias assumed to be some like dangerous anti -Semitic thoughts, and so he he wanted to express his concerns and try to turn this man around and.

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Help Joel Webben to to try to realize that this guy needs to be disciplined and disciplined doesn't mean kick him out of your church.

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It means like have a conversation with him. And then if it escalates to the point where he needs to be kicked out of your church, be willing to do that, because that's that's another thing that they've kind of fought back against the idea where even even

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Dr. James White said, like, people like this need to be disciplined. And a lot of the people on the other side are like James White said he needs to be kicked out of out of the church.

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Like, you really want to excommunicate people for asking questions. And it's like, that's not what he said. Do these people not know what church discipline means?

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Church discipline means you start with having a conversation. And then if they if they incessantly refuse to repent of actual sin that they're being accused of, then, you know, hopefully it never gets to the point.

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But, yes, eventually it could get to the point of you kicking somebody out of their church. And that could happen over anything.

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Like a person could have a tiny, tiny sin that if they're actually confronted about and if it's serious enough to confront them about, if it escalates to the point where they actually absolutely refuse to repent, then that that does actually show some kind of spiritual problem with a person if they're actually sinning and if they're actually confronted by it.

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But anyway, so that. Yeah, I was I was just going to say that one of the elements of this anti -Semitism expressed by this former member of Tobias's church is a denial of the

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Holocaust. Or at the very least, a radical revision of the facts of the

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Holocaust and softening the atrocities committed by Hitler and the

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Nazis against the Jews. From what I understand, this individual did not and does not, unless something changed, professed to be a neo -Nazi, an admirer of Hitler as an individual, but nonetheless believes that all of the accusations hurled at Hitler and the

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Nazis, especially in regard to the persecution of the Jews, have been overblown in this person's mind, exaggerated, completely falsified and have basically been reduced to the

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Jews were considered enemies of the

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German people and therefore they were not sent to death camps.

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They were sent to prisoner of war camps. And the reason why so many of them died was because Winston Churchill's stranglehold on the

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German economy towards the end of World War Two caused great difficulty with the feeding of the

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German people and therefore prisoners of war were put last on the ladder of importance to be fed.

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And this explanation of the

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Holocaust, which is bad enough, you have people being kidnapped from their own homes that sometimes have been in families for centuries.

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A law abiding Jewish people, some of them even war heroes of World War One, fighting for the

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Germans and their families and so on, being kidnapped and dragged off to these camps, having all of their possessions robbed from them.

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And Joel Webbin presented this in at least one video as an acceptable explanation or theory.

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He was not radically opposed to this. He said he was not going to publicly reveal exactly what he believed the

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Holocaust actually was, especially in regard to stats, numbers of Jews who died, et cetera.

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But he was basically saying, what's all the hubbub about this former members of Tobias's church's view?

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He was basically saying this is no big deal. I mean, this is horrific, isn't it? It's absolutely revealing some very serious sin going on in the mind of somebody who could view this as an acceptable not only explanation of the

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Holocaust, but an acceptable action of the German people, of the

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German government back then. Yeah, I think the kind of the direction that a lot of these people are coming from,

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I think some of them certainly are absolutely malicious. I think they're evil people. I think some of them are just deceived.

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And I think probably a very small number of people are actually curious because they realize that, well, the government has lied to us about a lot of things.

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There are a lot of historical things and characters that we know about that's actually twisted, like Martin Luther King Jr.

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is not the good guy that that our public schools want us to believe that he is and things like that. And so it's like from that, we realize, oh, well, kind of our government's lying to us about things.

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And then they they go farther and farther and farther until it's to the point where they say, well, maybe the

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Holocaust never happened. Now, what they would what these guys would say, who wants to push this actual anti -Semitism stuff or defend the people who are will say things like, well, it's

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OK just to ask questions. And to that, I completely agree. Of course, it's OK just to ask questions.

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But are they just asking questions? I think right now, like. Culturally, we've we've gone far past just asking questions, and if you spend too much time on a on X looking at some of these people's posts and the comments under the post, the actual blatant anti -Semitism is

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I mean, it's obvious like it's obvious to see now. And so comparing this to like where we were a few months ago when that phone call with Tobias happened, it's like Tobias was right.

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Actually, just recently, just a couple of days ago, there were a lot of big, relatively big accounts that were sharing

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Tobias was right. And and like this, all this controversy and these attacks that he received were were like he's he's been totally vindicated.

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Oh, really? You're talking about people who were either. Silent, neutral or even opposing

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Tobias have come to the realization that he was correct. Yeah, it's I mean, I don't know, maybe some people, but regardless of what position they were in before, maybe a lot of them were people who supported him in the past or maybe just some people didn't know, like whenever whenever this thing, the phone call situation first happened,

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I I didn't know what the truth was before the phone call was released. Like, you know, I I knew very little.

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The thing that mattered the most to me that I saw was the behavior of the people on both sides of the argument on on like the

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Joel Webb inside. There was a lot of vitriol and anger. And, you know, I didn't know if they were lying or not.

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But on the other side, on Tobias aside, and the people who were defending him, there was a lot of like, well, let's have a conversation about this and let's reveal the phone call and see what really happened.

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And like one side was interested in talking and the other side wasn't. And so I don't know what side of the the coin these accounts landed on back then, but now just a lot of these big name accounts are like, oh, wow,

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Tobias was right the whole time. And, you know, I'm one of them sharing like this, like the stuff that these people are saying now just vindicates the concerns that Tobias had back then, which kind of shows the attacks that he received and the kind of like they're just asking questions, whatever.

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It's like, well, they they weren't just asking questions and you just didn't have your eyes open. And so, like,

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I think one of the jobs of a pastor is to be able to care for his flock and lead them in a in a good direction.

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And if you're leading them off the cliff of actual Nazism, if you're leading them towards following these people.

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And just recently, Joel Webben posted a like somebody posted a list of accounts that a lot of like this kind of Christian nationalist type of person follows and included in those accounts were

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Corey Mahler and some guy named Woe, who is both a part of the Stonechoir podcast, who is who's probably the most blatant example of, quote, unquote, reformed

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Christian anti -Semitism. But I mean, he's the most open about having an affection and an admiration for Hitler.

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I mean, you know, even with photos of Hitler in his propaganda and so on.

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Yeah, there's a famous post from Corey Mahler that you can look up. I just looked it up earlier today just to confirm that he didn't delete it yet.

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He is like boldly proclaiming that Hitler was a good guy. And this post in particular said something like, oh, he says

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Christ is king and Hitler was his favorite faithful servant. That's the post. I mean, it's it's absolute nonsense.

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It's absolute. And he is he's an excommunicated Lutheran. Right. And he was included in a list that somebody shared of a lot of these these this type of Christian nationalist person following each other.

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And then Joel Webben replied to this and said, hey, this is a fantastic list of people to follow. Really?

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Because he has publicly say said in attempts to distance himself from and to show you my age,

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I've already forgotten the excommunicated Lutheran, Corey Mahler. That's his name.

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I just blanked out there. He has tried to distance himself from Corey Mahler by saying he's an idiot, a jerk and things like that.

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So that is an interesting development that you just mentioned. Yeah, it seems like he's like it seems to me looking at this from from the perspective that I am, that a lot of this this stuff is moving in this lightning fast direction.

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There was somebody I could pull up the tweet here and quote it exactly. But there was somebody who I forgot his name, who posted something like.

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Ray, he said, like, race is real, Jews are evil, something like that.

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And then Stephen Wolfe, at the same time, who is associated with a lot of these guys, said this person is a is a good friend and a faithful Christian, something like that.

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And and one of the and it's like if I had a friend who said Hitler was a good guy,

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I would I would want to punch that friend in the face or not be his friend anymore. Like I would I would pull a

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St. Nicholas like this is you can't, you know, and then some people want to feel like a lot of people.

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Is that the the where that story comes from? St. Nicholas slapped

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Pelagius, was it? I believe so. Yeah. Yeah, too. And what's what's good about that is is the purpose that St.

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Nicholas punched him was because he's like, I really thought that that was the only way that I could reach him because words like words do not convince a person who believes something so outrageously crazy of the truth.

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And but one interesting thing that I'm noticing in all this, and it's

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OK to notice things, it's OK to ask questions and notice that's all I'm doing is. This association that a lot of these people have with each other, it is kind of revealing like I did the way it was areas,

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I'm sorry, it was not Pelagius, it was areas. That sounds more right. A lot of these people, they have their their friends with each other.

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And so even if I wouldn't necessarily call certain people like a Nazi or you don't necessarily hate

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Jews or whatever, they they're good friends or they support or they endorse people who do.

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And that is it's so strange and it's weird and it's like that's why people are believing.

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Maybe maybe these other guys hate Jews, too, you know. Yeah, well, we have to go to our first commercial break and we'll pick up right where you left off.

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Our email address once again is chrisarenson at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back. I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an

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Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island. I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother,

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Chris Arnson, in the highest esteem. And I'm thrilled that you're listening today. I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

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Doug McMasters of New High Park Baptist Church on Long Island.

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Doug McMasters here, former director of pastoral correspondence at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur.

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In the film Chariots of Fire, Olympic gold medalist runner Eric Liddell remarked that he felt

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God's pleasure when he ran. He knew his efforts sprang from the gifts and calling of God.

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He sensed that same God -given pleasure when ministering the word and helping others gain a deeper knowledge and love for God.

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That love starts with the wonderful news that the Lord Jesus Christ is a savior who died for sinners and that God forgives all who come to him in repentance, trusting solely in Christ to deliver them.

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I would be delighted to have the honor and privilege of ministering to you if you live in the Long Island area or Queens or Brooklyn or the

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Bronx in New York City. For details on New High Park Baptist Church, visit

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NHPBC .com. That's NHPBC .com.

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You can also call us at 516 -352 -9672.

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That's 516 -352 -9672. That's New High Park Baptist Church, a congregation in love with each other, passionate for Christ, committed to learning and being shaped by God's word and delighting in the gospel of God's sovereign grace.

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I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

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Every Christian who's serious about the Deformed Faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

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Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with my guest,

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Cody Lawrence, and we are discussing the woke rite. If you have a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

43:56

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And we do have a listener already in Leavenworth, Kansas.

44:05

Candace asks, if the woke right and woke left ultimately seek to create their own utopias, how is

44:13

Christian nationality different? Does Christian nationalism also seek to create their own

44:20

Christian utopia with the post -millennialist worldview? To what extent would people with this worldview take this to its ultimate end?

44:34

Um, well, I'm sure you would agree, brother, that, uh, Christian nationalism is not a monolith, there are different, uh, branches of that, different understandings of that.

44:48

In fact, I don't even think Stephen Wolf is a post -millennialist, is he? No, he's, he's definitely not.

44:55

Right, right. So, uh, not all Christian nationalists are theonomists or reconstructionists.

45:02

Some of them even hate those things. Stephen Wolf hates them. But if you could address the question from Candace in Leavenworth, Kansas.

45:11

Yeah, that's a really good question. There's a lot of elements to it. I think it's an interesting observation that both the woke left and the woke right both kind of want to create their utopia.

45:21

Uh, the way I would put it is that they want to create a world that actually is entirely separate from scripture.

45:30

Even though the woke right people would claim to be Christian or Christian nationalist, or, you know, even in Stephen Wolf's book, he, uh, he insists, he even put out a video recently where it's like, here's why

45:40

I didn't use scripture in my book. I, it's my opinion that if you, uh, if you're trying to develop some kind of Christian nationalism, you actually have to make it

45:52

Christian. And Christian does not necessarily mean Christian history because Christian history and biblical

45:59

Christianity are actually not the same thing. Contrary to what a lot of people believe, contrary to what

46:04

Stephen Wolf seems to believe. And so because they want to create these worlds or these governments actually separate from scripture, instead of in subjugation to scripture, then, uh,

46:16

Christian nationalism, I think like biblical Christian nationalism, let's say, uh, is different because it is rooted in scripture.

46:23

And like I, myself, personally, I'm not afraid of the term Christian nationalist, uh,

46:28

I think just like you said, there are different branches of it for sure, but if we're just talking about, uh, what does the

46:36

Bible tell us, Jesus himself says, go forth and make disciples of all nations. Do I want

46:42

America to be converted? Do I want America to be Christian? Absolutely. And so I think the difference is, uh, between like what the woke, right.

46:51

And the woke left one is that I would say, yeah, a lot of them, they like to call themselves the new Christian, right?

46:57

And I like to say, it's not new. It's not Christian and it's not right because they're not rooting their beliefs in scripture.

47:05

They're rooting their beliefs in hatred, hatred, and anti -Semitism and this just awful, uh, negative things instead of holy biblical and positive things are their fuel.

47:20

And, and that's not, that's not what the Bible's about. And that's not what I think biblical Christian nationalism, uh, is about either and wants to accomplish.

47:29

Okay. By the way, Candace, I believe this may be your first time sending in a question.

47:34

And if that's the case, you have won a free new American standard Bible. Uh, so just give me your complete mailing address as well as your full name and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

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will ship that free Bible out to you. Uh, we have Barry in Egg Harbor, New Jersey, who said,

47:58

I tuned in late. Sorry if I missed this, but what exactly is woke about the woke right?

48:07

Yeah, that's, that's a good question. We kind of already did cover that in the first half of the episode, but to reclarify, uh, woke the way

48:14

I define woke right personally is somebody who is, who calls themselves a conservative, but acts woke.

48:23

And so there's this inherent oxymoron within the idea of the woke right. Where it's like, well, you, you can't be right and left at the same time, but we do have people who call themselves conservatives who actually act liberal.

48:35

Uh, we, I mean, in, in the American government, we call people rhinos, Republicans in name only.

48:41

And so we, we could say the woke right people are right in name only. Uh, so the, the, this kind of, uh,

48:50

I think adherence to Marxist principles, uh, this kind of willingness to pick an entire race or group of people, be it the

48:59

Jews or minorities or the boomers and, and label them as the villain and say that they are responsible for all of your problems.

49:07

Uh, I think that's a very leftist thing to do. They also embody things like cancel culture.

49:13

Uh, Joel Webb and himself has said like, well, we want to shame people off the internet with anonymous accounts. That sounds very much like Antifa where they go around in masks and they try to, you know, uh, attack the people they don't like, except the irony is

49:28

Antifa actually had the bravery to do it face to face. They went out in person, you know, Joel Webbins, anonymous army.

49:35

They do it online. And so I think there's a lot of interesting parallels between, uh, the woke right and the actual left.

49:44

And, and, and it's, it's really interesting to see because again, these, these woke right people, they say, oh, well the woke right doesn't exist.

49:50

That's an oxymoron. And, and if, if you look at it deeper, if you look at what it actually means, it obviously, obviously exists.

49:57

Now, when you mentioned Marxism, obviously Joel Webbin and his minions are not publicly identifying with Marxism.

50:08

I'm sure I'm assuming that they would be publicly denouncing Marxism, but a lot of people, uh, have this false notion that, uh, the things that, uh, that are commonly labeled as right -wing or the farther right you go on the spectrum of political ideology, the closer you are to Nazism, that's what most people think.

50:44

But Nazism was a left -wing ideology. It was just a different kind, a rival of communism.

50:53

Hitler hated communism, just like certain organized crime families, uh, in the mafia,

51:03

La Cosa Nostra, hated other families. They weren't really all that different. There were definitely certain things about Nazism and fascism.

51:13

That, that, uh, contrasted with communism, like, uh, the glorification of a nationality, uh, which is why the

51:24

Soviet Union, you know, brought an end to the, the specific, uh, names of countries that they had conquered.

51:35

Uh, and that all, when the Iron Curtain fell and, and, uh, the

51:40

Soviet Union collapsed, those things came back into play. And in fact, even

51:47

Putin is now a Russian nationalist, really. Uh, he glorifies, uh, the

51:53

Russian nation and so on. But, uh, people are living in a dream world when they think that if you, uh, consider yourself right -wing, you should be soft on Hitler and then even admire him when he was a leftist.

52:13

And, uh, as I have said before on the show, people should get a hold of the book by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams, a, an evangelical

52:25

Christian pastor and an Orthodox Jew who wrote a book called The Pink Swastika, Homosexuality and the

52:31

Nazi Party. It's an eye opener, heavily documented and footnoted. Uh, and it is, uh, clear that they were, uh, honestly and factually using, uh, the, the contemporaries of the

52:51

Nazis who were historians and even just eyewitnesses who were not only often

52:58

Jewish, but, uh, homosexuals. Uh, they, they prove the point that the majority of the early

53:05

Nazis were homosexuals, but anyway, obviously this is no moral bastion that some people are claiming from a

53:14

Christian perspective and an allegedly right -wing perspective, claiming that this was somehow, that they were the gatekeepers of, of morality in Europe is insane.

53:26

But, uh, we have to go to our first, or I'm sure, I'm sorry. Our midway break right now. And once again, chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:35

is our, uh, email address to send in questions.

53:40

Don't go away. We're going to be back after these messages. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio has had a long time partnership with our friends at CBBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Attoy in County Kildare, Ireland.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Chris Arnzen at Gmail dot com. Give us a first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

01:09:43

We have Stuart in Aquabog, Long Island, who wants to know, what are the primary elements of wokeism that distinguishes it from other ideologies, whether left wing or right wing?

01:10:01

OK, well, I know that you've already explained some of that, but would you say that basically a revival, bringing about a revival of racism is a key area?

01:10:20

I know that leftists adamantly oppose the idea that they are racist, but they clearly are.

01:10:28

I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing how they could be oblivious to the fact that many of these woke representatives in the media and the media in general even on networks that are beloved and respected by mainstream liberals, some of these racists of multimillion dollar paying jobs as talking heads, and they're openly spewing hate for white people.

01:11:02

And so, I mean, the right and the left are only disagreeing on who they are targeting with their bigotry.

01:11:11

Am I right? Yeah, I agree. And I think the way I would say it is like wokeism kind of culturally,

01:11:18

I think it's become kind of synonymous with leftism. So I would say if you're leftist, you are woke.

01:11:24

And then the woke right thing, like conservatism is totally different. True conservatism, rather, is totally different and far away from leftism, a true right wing, social and theological, just anything.

01:11:39

But, yeah, I would be comfortable calling woke synonymous with leftism, which means there could just be people on the left or the right out there that are people who call themselves on the left or the right who act like leftists.

01:11:56

And yeah, it seems like recently in the culture, leftism has been much more willing in our in the past couple of decades, at least, to be very vitriolic towards the groups of people that they don't like white people.

01:12:11

And in this case, minorities, blacks, boomers, you know, pick a group.

01:12:18

Well, the right and left wings of wokeism certainly share a hatred of Jews.

01:12:26

And I know that those who have become publicly identified by their their critics, like my guest today, as being right woke or woke right, they don't ever admit to that label accurately describing themselves.

01:12:46

But those who are being exposed for being a part of the woke right swear they don't hate

01:12:56

Jews. But just because you say that. Doesn't mean it's true.

01:13:03

Right. And I gave you an example earlier that I wanted to I wanted to bring the receipts there.

01:13:08

I don't know every all of the players kind of involved in this in the quote unquote reformed community, because just like I wouldn't call these people true conservatives,

01:13:16

I also wouldn't call them truly reformed because there is no place for loving Hitler. There's no place for hating an entire race of people because of where they come from in the reformed faith.

01:13:27

So these things are entirely contradictory. The doctrines of the reformed faith are intended by God to humble man, all men to the dust and to glorify

01:13:37

God as our only hope that there's nothing innate to our being as humans that make us superior to any other human or pleasing to God apart from his transforming us.

01:13:52

Absolutely. Yes. So it kind of makes me uncomfortable to say that these this is cropping up in the reformed community, so I just wanted to qualify that by saying this isn't actually reformed.

01:14:03

I don't think this is actually coming out of reformed theology, but it's something that's coming up to try to combat reformed theology from within, because it often happens that the most effective attacks against a good thing come from within.

01:14:18

And that's what we're seeing with this. But earlier I mentioned there was a tweet that or a post on X that Stephen Wolfe was kind of connected to.

01:14:26

And there's somebody named Michael Spangler. I don't know who this is. I'm lucky to not have followed a lot of these people and to kind of just be hearing about a lot of these people secondhand, but his post said race is real.

01:14:40

Jews are evil and whites are supreme. And then I have a. All right.

01:14:46

I have another screenshot of Stephen Wolfe that says Michael is my friend and a good man, and so my question is, would a good man really say that Jews are evil and whites are supreme?

01:14:58

No, in fact, I think that only an unregenerate man could say that. And would a good man call a person like that a friend and a good man?

01:15:08

I don't I don't know. No, I do. But they wouldn't. Yeah, I mean, this is insanity.

01:15:20

It is clearly antithetical to the New Testament.

01:15:27

It's insane. It's insane to think.

01:15:34

That the Apostle Paul would have such.

01:15:41

Passionate disdain for the Judaizers and the anti -Gentile

01:15:48

Jews of his day. And to know that that actually happened and is true, and yet somehow we think that the reverse is

01:16:00

OK in the 21st century. That it's OK to be a

01:16:06

Gentile Christian and yet have a disdain for Jews. It's it is so repugnant to the gospel message.

01:16:17

The whole idea of the walls of separation being broken down that separate

01:16:23

Jew and Gentile, it's just mind boggling.

01:16:28

And the thing that boggles my mind more than anything.

01:16:35

Is men that I know who know better, who I even have had on this program to promote their books, to promote their speaking engagements, who are defending these anti -Semites.

01:16:50

And one thing that's... Oh, go ahead. No, no, I'm finished. One thing that's kind of valuable to me is to try to figure out where these people are coming from or where exactly the mistake is being made.

01:17:03

And I was even having a conversation, if you can call it a conversation, with someone on X earlier today, and they were saying, like, you don't think

01:17:12

Judaism is evil, and it's like, well, but that's not what we're talking about. There is this weird conflation or I don't know if these people are doing it on purpose or if it's unintentional, but like, yes, modern

01:17:27

Talmudic Judaism, just like all false religions, is, in fact, evil. Right.

01:17:32

It's not something I'm afraid to say. I'm not a dispensationalist. Like, yes, it is evil. But to label an entire race of people evil, you know, like, how would we feel if we said white people are evil because some white people are evil?

01:17:46

Like we would say, well, no, that's bad. You don't say that. And we can't apply that same logic to the

01:17:53

Jews because it's convenient to label them as the villains in our hateful, corrupt theology.

01:18:00

Yes, and Joel Webben has highlighted

01:18:05

Talmudic Judaism as being, if not the worst religion, most satanic religion, if it's not the most, it's at least right there in the the top tier of them because of certain descriptions, for instance, that the rabbis wrote about Jesus being boiled in his own urine for eternity and things like that.

01:18:38

Your average Jewish person, the vast majority of Jewish people, even if they're

01:18:46

Orthodox Jews, that is not a tenet of their religion, theology or ideology or practice in the public square.

01:18:58

And even in their their behavior and manner of being with communication with Christians.

01:19:11

I mean, it's just absent. It's, in fact, and I don't accept this as being a pass for the heresies of Judaism, but many

01:19:28

Jews would even claim Jesus was a good man. And some even have gone as far as saying a prophet to the

01:19:40

Gentiles. Now, that is heresy when you separate

01:19:47

Jesus from his deity and every other biblical aspect of his being.

01:19:54

But at the same time, you don't have the majority or even a reasonably large portion of Jewish people using that in their rhetoric that Jesus is in hell and so on.

01:20:08

In fact, many Jews like Ben Shapiro don't even believe in eternal conscious punishment. Yeah, and that's

01:20:15

I was going to mention exactly the same thing. Ben Shapiro doesn't believe every word of the

01:20:20

Talmud. And so the vast majority of modern Jews, they don't even take the Talmud seriously. They don't believe that stuff.

01:20:25

They're essentially secularists. Right. And by the way, I believe

01:20:31

I failed to mention to Barry and Stuart that if you are first time questioners, you have also won a free

01:20:38

New American Standard Bible. So if that is the case, email me your full name and full addresses so that the

01:20:47

NASB can be shipped out to you. Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.

01:20:54

Well, take us now into what you believe is practical advice on how churches and Christian individuals should combat this growing evil.

01:21:11

I mean, I have been defending Calvinism as long as I've been a born again believer against the slander of especially my dispensationalist friends and brethren who have claimed that my ideology is anti -Semitic.

01:21:30

And even if I am unconsciously adopting a theology that is anti -Semitic,

01:21:40

I am still not off the hook for participating in anti -Semitism. I've been combating that lie and falsehood for decades.

01:21:50

I was saved in the mid -80s. And now we actually have, for the first time in my life, professedly

01:21:58

Reformed Christians who really fit the bill. It's just mind -blowing.

01:22:04

But if you could tell me and our audience how you think we should be responding to this in a practical sense.

01:22:13

Yeah, so I think where the pulpit goes, so goes the church and so goes the nation.

01:22:20

And so the first thing that I guess pastors and congregations both need to realize is they need to be actively preaching, and this isn't to say every week, but they need to be doing something in their churches to combat this stuff.

01:22:35

If any part of your church even smells like it, because and this is exactly the same thing

01:22:41

I said about wokeness back in 2020. It's like if anything even smells like social justice, you have to get that stuff out of your church, you have to crush it.

01:22:49

And that's not to say before I get taken out of context, that's not to say that you should excommunicate people without trial.

01:22:55

If they ask a question about social justice or whatever.

01:23:01

No, but towards the ideology itself, we should have absolutely no mercy.

01:23:07

However, that does not mean that we shouldn't be willing to have sincere, long, even conversations with these people who are sincerely asking questions, not at all, but to evil ideologies.

01:23:18

We have to have absolutely no mercy and not let those take hold at all in our churches, because those things have a very powerful, corrupting influence.

01:23:28

And I think in different time periods, certain ideologies have because of cultural influence or whatever, have more powerful, corrupting influence than other things.

01:23:41

So like in 2020, it was wokeness. And well, really, in 2025, it's still wokeness, but it's a different kind of wokeness.

01:23:49

And so if we if if if our shepherds have their eyes open and they see kind of the way that the the

01:23:56

Christian or the reformed community is going, they will really study this hard and see exactly who the good guys and the bad guys are and be able to draw strict lines about the things they believe and the things they don't believe and why.

01:24:12

And one another element that I think is really important here that I'm noticing is kind of baked into the to the woke right ideology itself, but something that I think pulls people into the woke right ideology is this weird kind of tribalism and loyalty to certain kinds of people or teachers or podcasters that you like.

01:24:34

So I would. So, for example, like I personally here's a fun fact.

01:24:40

I used to really appreciate Joel Webben's ministry. I met him at a Fight Left Feast conference in person to two or three years ago, whichever conference he went to.

01:24:49

I've had him on my program. Sure, and I appreciated his work. I had a good, positive conversation with him.

01:24:57

Something that people are trying to do now in the past week or so on Twitter is like, well, I'm I'm his friend and he's a good guy because I'm his friend, but if you're at a court and somebody is guilty and you're coming up to give to be a witness and you say, judge your honor, he's innocent because he's my friend, that's not a defense that that is that.

01:25:18

In fact, that doesn't make him innocent. That actually makes you complicit in his crime. Yeah, so I think.

01:25:28

Go ahead. No, no, continue. I think this is this is the the thing that we have to watch out for, where a lot of people were actually greatly benefited by Joel Webben's ministry, that's true.

01:25:41

A lot of people may have been benefited by Stephen Wolf's book, Christian Nationalism. I own it myself.

01:25:46

I have read it. A lot of people can be benefited by a lot of these different ministries that are starting to, in a very obvious way, go south.

01:25:55

And we as biblical Christians need to be consistent to our reformed faith and believe in sola scriptura, meaning we should not be putting the words of men above the words of God.

01:26:09

And so even if somebody who you really like, somebody who you have loyalty to, somebody who has done good things for you in the past, falls or or is sinful in some way, you have to have loyalty to God first before you have loyalty to them.

01:26:25

And so a lot of people have loyalty to people like Joel Webben because, oh, he he helped me like, you know, not wear a mask during 2020.

01:26:34

Like, well, that's good. But now there are other people you can go to who are better teachers, who also don't defend people like Corey Muller, who absolutely hates

01:26:45

Jews. There are better places for you to go. And if you're loyal to scripture above loyal to people, then then you're going to be good.

01:26:54

And so I think this is something that we should be fostering in our churches. These are conversations that we should be having with our fellow believers who like and follow these people, because this this kind of woke ideology coming from the supposed right has this very powerful, corrupting influence.

01:27:11

And it's something that we, I think, have to have really, like really strongly on lockdown if if our eyes are open to these things.

01:27:18

Well, one thing that I can't remember if I'd mentioned this yet during this interview, but I think if I started to,

01:27:26

I got sidetracked somehow. But one thing that the right and left woke have in common is a hatred of Jews.

01:27:37

And that is a mind boggling thing that I have experienced in my lifetime, seeing these idiot college students gathering in public, these leftists wasting mommy and daddy's money by taking hours and hours and hours and days of their time to to wage a a verbal war against Jews.

01:28:22

And it's actually not only only verbal because they have physically intimidated

01:28:29

Jewish people who are students and so on on their campuses.

01:28:35

But I never thought I would saw that coming from the left in my lifetime.

01:28:42

This has been a huge surprise as far as the left of the

01:28:49

United States goes. I already mentioned that Hitler was really a leftist. National socialism was the the name of his political group.

01:29:02

But I never thought in America I would see that. Got any comments about that bizarre way that they are bedfellows, both the left and right woke folk?

01:29:18

Yeah, just other than the fact that this is yet more evidence that there is such a thing as people who call themselves on the right and they act woke.

01:29:27

Yeah, it's weird. And it's birthed out of a, I think, a lack of responsibility and wanting to take accountability for bad things that's happening in your life, like a need to find some kind of villain to blame your problems on or your oppression or the fact that you aren't as successful or privileged as you want to be.

01:29:50

And this is exactly the same thing that the left does. Except I think the left has a little bit more of a backbone because they're willing to admit that they're leftists.

01:29:59

Right. We have to go to our final break. If you have a question and want to join the other folks who have already submitted questions, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:30:12

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01:43:36

And we are now back with my guest, Cody Lawrence, and we are continuing our conversation on the woke right.

01:43:47

If you have a question, submit it to us at ChrisOrenson at gmail .com

01:43:54

ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

01:44:03

And we have Theodore in Champaign, Illinois, who says, do you think that some of the confusion lies in the fact that these woke right folks are wrongly assuming that folks like you two are perpetuating distortions and fallacies about the

01:44:32

Jews that are perpetuated by the dispensationalists and they are seeking to counteract that?

01:44:42

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I don't think so because I think they know better, most of them.

01:44:50

I think there's maybe a few deceived people who maybe believe the propaganda that we are dispensationalists and we're just liberals and we don't know what we're talking about.

01:45:02

But I think the people who are bigger names in this,

01:45:08

I think they know better. And these accusations that we receive are merely tactics to shut down conversation and to silence their opposition, which yet again is another thing that leftists love to do.

01:45:21

It's not something that conservatives ought to do and it's not something that Christians ought to do. Yes, and just so our listeners know what we're talking about, dispensationalists believe that the

01:45:37

Jews are the chosen people, whereas confessionally reformed

01:45:42

Christians believe that people from out of every tribe, tongue, and people and nation who are of the elect are

01:45:50

God's chosen people and that there is nothing innately superior about being

01:46:00

Jewish to being a Gentile. Dispensationalists believe the reverse of that.

01:46:09

They... Let's see where else they would go.

01:46:15

If anything comes to mind, you could jump in. But they believe that to the

01:46:25

Jew first, then to the Greek, is actually an order of priority in our evangelism and outreach, where we believe that that's just a chronological fact of history, that the

01:46:41

Jews receive the gospel first and then the Greeks. I think the main thing is that the

01:46:48

Jews are God's chosen people and in biblical theology that carries over into...

01:46:55

The Gentiles are grafted into the Jewish faith. True Jews are the church.

01:47:02

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees and he says, you're not a true

01:47:07

Jew just because you have the blood of Abraham. You're a true Jew if you have faith.

01:47:14

Paul said a true Jew is one inwardly. The circumcision of the heart is what makes somebody a

01:47:22

Jew, not the circumcision of the foreskin. And so the accusation of being a dispensationalist is like, well, you just love

01:47:30

Jews. You think Jews are special and we ought to be defended and you want to defend everything modern day

01:47:36

Jews do. And it's like, no, we just don't think that you should hate an entire race of people.

01:47:43

And like I said, there might be some actual confusion coming from some people, but I am honestly the kind of person that wants to give people so much grace in arguments.

01:47:54

I want to really try to understand my opponent's position, but it really does seem like a lot of these people are just maliciously attacking their opponents for absolutely no reason and inventing things to apply to us to silence us.

01:48:10

And actually they would accuse us of exactly the same thing. But like I said earlier in the episode, one of the things that we ought to notice, like here's a discernment tip.

01:48:19

Whenever there is some kind of argument like this where there's like so much complicated stuff out there on both sides, the thing that convinced me way back with the

01:48:30

Tobias phone call was how were both sides acting without me even listening to the phone call, without me even knowing any of the details whatsoever.

01:48:39

Which side was acting with more grace? And which side was interested in actually comparing this to scripture?

01:48:45

And which side was acting with violence and hate and vitriol and trying to silence the other side?

01:48:53

And to me, that's really all you need to know. One thing I'd like to bring up before we run out of time was something that I must confess made me laugh.

01:49:06

I thought it was somewhat hilarious when you brought up the fact in a podcast of yours, a podcast episode, that Joel Webben had brought up a statistic about the

01:49:23

IQs of Haitians being far below that of Caucasians.

01:49:33

I'm not sure what he was comparing Haitians or who. Yeah. Basically, he was just saying

01:49:39

Haitian IQ is some certain low number on average. And if you do not believe in this proven statistic, you are not even fit to be a minister of the gospel.

01:49:55

He says that, yeah. And yet, he is stating that he rejects the post -World

01:50:07

War II consensus understanding of the Holocaust and refuses to publicly be specific about his own view because he hasn't dedicated thousands of hours into studying the issue.

01:50:26

And you brought up the question, well, has he dedicated thousands of hours into this low

01:50:33

IQ for Haitians theory? And on top of that, he was wrong when you compare it with other studies on the same subject.

01:50:45

He was wrong about it. He was. He mentioned this Haitian IQ statistic and said, I detail all of this in my video about him.

01:50:54

Like I said at the beginning, I hate false teachers. I don't know if I would call him a false teacher, but I would absolutely call him a wolf.

01:51:00

I don't think he's necessarily preaching false gospel, but I think he absolutely is a wolf who is disqualified from ministry.

01:51:06

And he says it himself because he says a pastor can't not be a pastor unless they actually affirm it, which this is a really stupid thing for anybody to say.

01:51:17

Why would anybody even say this? This isn't one of the pastoral qualifications in Timothy and Titus. Also in Revelation, I think it says something about anything that adds to the word of God is a curse, but we'll forget that.

01:51:30

And so anyway, Joel decides to add a qualification to pastors that says, if you don't affirm exactly the number that I say is

01:51:39

Haitian IQ, then you're not qualified for ministry. And then people looked up the actual stats and it's like the number was off.

01:51:46

And not much off, but the point is you can't make a claim like that and not be inflicting the same problem upon yourself.

01:51:54

And so he basically disqualifies himself from ministry. And he previously in a different podcast says,

01:52:00

I'm not going to say how many people died in the Holocaust because I don't have 10 ,000 hours to devote to studying how many people died in the

01:52:07

Holocaust. And yet he is totally fine saying all kinds of nonsense and saying like, well, of course he hasn't spent 10 ,000 hours studying the

01:52:17

IQ of Haiti. He's not a Soviet. Or anything. Or anything for that matter.

01:52:24

It's an obnoxious, outrageous thing to say. And I think one of the biggest problems with not just people like Joel Webben, who's one of the figureheads of the woke right, but a problem with the woke right in general.

01:52:36

And this is just something that Christians, no matter what group you're a part of, this is not something that Christians ought to do.

01:52:43

Be inflammatory for the sake of getting attention. This is something that is becoming more and more popular online.

01:52:52

And this absolutely is not something that a pastor ought to be doing.

01:52:57

And the other oxymoron, or the other irony, I should say, that is hinged to what we were just talking about, is

01:53:08

Joel sternly, vociferously condemns using as a litmus test somebody's understanding about the

01:53:22

Holocaust and how many people numerically died and what were the reasons for their death and what were the causes of their death.

01:53:30

That stuff is open for debate. Why isn't Haitian's IQ open for debate?

01:53:37

Exactly. Something that I have noticed, and it's okay to notice things, it's okay to ask questions, something that I've noticed is blatant hypocrisy is legion among these people.

01:53:50

And if you look at them, if you look at the people who defend them, if you look at the people who they follow and who they associate with, just do a little bit of research.

01:54:01

See the kind of attitude they have towards things, if they're actually approaching things scripturally, or if they're approaching things hatefully.

01:54:11

How much love do you see coming from their comments versus hate? And I think you'll basically see all you need to know.

01:54:19

Well, I'd like you to take our remaining time, about four minutes, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject.

01:54:33

So hopefully, as we have demonstrated, the woke right exists. It is an oxymoron.

01:54:39

The purpose of the term is to reveal that there are people in the world who call themselves conservatives who are not.

01:54:46

Even the people who are woke right say, ah, that's liberal propaganda. You're a liberal if you say that.

01:54:52

Which proves, even though they say the woke right doesn't exist, that itself proves that it does.

01:54:58

Because they are accusing people like us of being liberal, who calls ourselves conservatives. And so it's unavoidable.

01:55:05

There are inconsistent conservatives out there. And the question that we need to ask ourselves is who are they?

01:55:11

Who are being the inconsistent conservatives? And forget that, forget conservatism. Who are being the inconsistent

01:55:17

Christians? Who are the Christians who are actually acting with love and biblically and scripturally?

01:55:23

Who are the people who are trying to silence their opposition and insult them and destroy their enemies?

01:55:31

That is not a Christian thing to do. And so, kind of the summing up the solution to all this,

01:55:37

I think, really is simple. It's to hold firm to sola scriptura.

01:55:43

It is to realize that scripture is your ultimate authority. You need to hold to the word of God more than you hold to the word of your favorite podcaster.

01:55:52

You need to hold to the word of God more than you hold to whatever trendy cultural thing is happening at the current time.

01:55:59

And if you do that, and you encourage the people around you to do that, and you encourage your church to do that, and if you're a pastor, if you preach this kind of thing boldly from the pulpit, and if you encourage your pastors to do that, then

01:56:13

I think your church will be safe from this kind of thing and will be able to weather any kind of storm that will come at it theologically.

01:56:21

By the way, one thing that just popped into my head that I remembered in regard to a commonality of right and left wokeism.

01:56:35

Both would disagree with you and I, and every

01:56:43

Reformed Christian that I hold in high esteem who believe that there is no such thing as races.

01:56:53

There is one race, the human race. We use sometimes terms like racism just because it's a part of the vernacular that is a synonym to bigotry, and I don't like the term racism, but sometimes it comes out of my mouth just because it's just a commonly used word.

01:57:17

But there's only one race, the human race, or, if you want to say, the race of Adam and the race of Christ.

01:57:28

But there is no race that is distinguished by color or ethnic origin, and both sides of this battle believe, oh, no, that's certainly wrong.

01:57:39

There are races. And the thing that's more mystifying is on the left side of the woke issue.

01:57:49

They've abandoned radically the formally held liberal principle was actually a principle held by liberals and decent conservatives that we should be colorblind.

01:58:06

And as much as we do not uphold Martin Luther King, Jr. as a hero, we do know that he was absolutely correct that we are to judge a man not by the color of his skin, but the contents of his character.

01:58:22

And leftists reject that. So that's one thing that they both have in common.

01:58:30

We'll remind our listeners... Oh, yeah. I think the one interesting piece of propaganda that also happened to come out of Joel Webben's podcast is they say the word racism was invented just to oppress

01:58:42

Nazis in World War II because they needed to be oppressed by their Jewish overlords.

01:58:48

But yeah, we recognize there's one human race. But the thing that we mean by racism, the thing that we associate with race, even though we also recognize as Christians that there's one human race, that group of people over there calling them evil just because of how they look or where they come from, that's bad.

01:59:08

And that is the commonly understood meaning of racism. And so we can use the word kinism, we can use the word tribalism, whatever word you want to use.

01:59:16

That's what those people are doing. And it's evil. Right. Well, if you want to remind our listeners about how they can watch

01:59:24

Spare No Arrows. Yeah. You can search Spare No Arrows on YouTube.

01:59:30

I'm also, my podcast is on all of the audio places, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. I'm also on X at WC underscore

01:59:39

Lawrence. And I also have a Spare No Arrows page that you can look up on Facebook, Instagram, all the social media places.

01:59:46

Great. And don't forget, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries is our guest tomorrow on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater