What Should the Punishment Be For Abortion?

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

Rock a bonus must stop. I don't want to rock the boat. I want to sink it Are you gonna bark all day

00:09

Or are you gonna bite? Yeah, delusional is okay in your world view

00:15

I'm an animal you don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

00:22

Okay, it doesn't really hurt What Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

00:36

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

00:43

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right?

00:49

Don't go in the world make homies Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick That's a joke master

01:00

We cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the

01:24

Lord Shall be established as the highest of the mountains and shall be lifted up above the hills and all the nations shall flow to it

01:32

And many people shall come and say here comes Come let us go up to the mountain of the

01:38

Lord to the house of the God of Jacob That he may teach us his ways that we may walk in his paths and here it is for out of Zion Shall go.

01:48

Oh, there you go. So out of Zion shall go forth the law I'll say it again for out of Zion shall go forth the law the

01:57

Torah and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem so that's Isaiah chapter 2 very very important messianic prophecy powerful prophecy in the book of Isaiah chapter 2

02:07

Encourage you guys all check that out and read that what's up. Welcome back everybody To another episode of apology radio.

02:13

It's my first time back actually since December Yeah, right. I remember when that's right.

02:19

Yes. I think I did two shows. Yeah since you've been back So we are back in the studio

02:27

Phoenix Arizona gospel heard around the world you guys can get more at apology of studios .com a p o l o g i a studios .com

02:34

Go there and you can get all of the past radio and podcast episodes.

02:40

We're talking they go way back Really really important stuff great stuff really bless you amazing guests almost 10 years or so of radio and podcast episodes just about and It would encourage you to go check that out.

02:52

Lots is there We're talking hundreds of episodes and if you go to apology studios .com You can go to apology all access and when you do you actually sign up you participate with us in all of our ministry

03:02

You make everything that we do possible all the on the street evangelism videos the standalone content We're preaching the gospel to Mormons to Jehovah's Witnesses Whatever the case may be if it is gospel if it is going out if it's a part of the media of apology of studios

03:15

You're making all that possible with apology all access However, it's not just you partnering with our ministry and making all of this gospel proclamation and defense of the gospel possible but you also get all of the extra stuff that we do to bless all of our all -access partners like you get all the

03:32

TV Shows you get the after shows and you get apology Academy, which actually right now I just think I think I just saw them posting stuff up for our apology of church history class

03:40

You got apologetics classes. You got all of our stuff that we do on philosophy Just great stuff go to apology all access sign up partner with us in ministry let people know and then go and just take that content in and I have something very special that we are praying that we can announce

03:58

Soon be in prayer for it. It's going to revolutionize and completely change Apology all access if the

04:05

Lord ultimately gives it to us It will probably be the best one of the best thing that's ever happened to apology of studios.

04:11

Yeah, it's pretty big. It's Huge I never would have imagined That's something like this would be possible

04:16

But we're at the tail end of discussions on it right now And if it happens, let me just tell you right now get your

04:23

Bibles ready Get your books ready gets your stuff ready and get your mind ready. It's gonna be amazing

04:28

I think I'll be using it probably more than anybody else. I think you already do to be honest I really think I I really think

04:33

I will so we're back. That is pastor Luke the bear. What uh, I'm Jeff the calm the ninja

04:39

Lots of things happening this year are things the important for us We had I just want to say some of the fine fondest memories that I have of all of our years of ministry

04:49

Doing apology a radio is during the 2016 election

04:56

Well, no 15 right 15 election. Yeah, that's what we got to just do. It's like every week.

05:01

We got new and fresh content We got to speak to from the biblical worldview We got to engage with a lot of Hillary Clinton's stuff

05:08

Donald Trump's stuff. All the stuff was raging that year So election years are really cool years to actually engage with the biblical worldview and the media and it becomes really fun, right?

05:17

We did Bernie Sanders stuff. Well, you know, it was just a lot of fun And so we plan to have a great year this year at apology a radio

05:24

Lord willing We're gonna just give you lots of stuff to work with lots and bless you with But we thought today

05:31

Pastor Luke and I were talking we thought today we could do an episode To bless everybody and to talk about a really important subject and that's a subject we talk about often

05:39

But it's it's gonna be a little different today so we you guys know an apology of studios you're gonna hear stuff about an abortion now and engaging the area of abortion and you know trying to encourage everyone to sign up and partner with us to Get all the free resources and everything and just go out and save lives

05:53

You know, we'd talk about that but today we're actually gonna do the theological examination and talk about judicial examination

06:00

Just statutes and all the rest. So very important Discussion today and it's gonna come by way of an article written about yours

06:09

Truly actually several articles really coming from the same thing barcroft media a couple years ago came to apology of studios and did a

06:17

Spotlight on me and apology his work outside the abortion mill and that turned into some

06:24

News articles we had the New York Post Yeah, you had Metro UK and several other ones and let me just as you're getting in right now

06:32

Let me tell you what you're in for during this particular episode and that is I'll read the

06:37

Metro It says hipster says he wants to execute women who have abortions

06:43

Hipster says he wants to execute women who have abortions Yeah, personally, okay

06:51

Rockin rockin hands two things really wrong there a I'm not a hipster it never have been a hipster and nobody knows me would think

06:57

I'm a hipster and Of course, he says he wants to execute women who have abortions and of course you were there the day

07:04

They were here doing this and they it's interesting because they had the film crew come out And take pictures and in all the pictures

07:11

I was smiling and like hey and a picture of you and I to oh, yeah Yeah, a picture you and I back -to -back like hey,

07:18

I hate that picture. Hey, bro back -to -back, you know, and We were posing for like a yearbook you and I would never do that on our own they obviously made us so oh by the

07:28

Way, they asked us to do a reality TV show. Remember that do you know I kind of remember?

07:34

Yeah They asked us if we would do a reality TV show around apology at church and we'd turned him down because we're not into that No, um, but In in this article the picture you just go look it up hipster wants to execute women have abortions

07:48

The picture they chose look how mad I look look. I mean, yeah, you look angry. I look mad, don't

07:53

I? Yeah, and it was just in between pictures like when the guy was like resetting I'm like smiling and when he's resetting

08:00

I'm just sort of I have a resting face. That's the picture they took and Look how mean he is

08:06

He looks like your average modern -day American hipster Is that a resting pastor face that's a resting pastor face, yeah, so you can go read the article

08:16

We're actually gonna read some of it today I'm actually gonna engage with it and finally have something on record where we say What is our position on what is the actual just statute in regard to murdering a human being in the womb?

08:28

Let's make sure we're properly Defining our terms and the nature of the situation what ought to be

08:34

According to the Christian worldview based upon God's Word the just statute when a mother murders her child

08:41

Let's put it like that. That's the best way to put it It doesn't matter where she is or where the child is one years old in the crib

08:48

Two years old in the car that you ran into the river to drown her or in the womb

08:54

When you have her dismembered by paying an assassin what ought a mother to get when she

09:00

Intentionally in an unjustified manner takes a life of her own child. That's the question

09:05

But in order to do it today, we have a very special guest one of our very favorites our good friend

09:11

Yes, one of our heroes of the faith. He's a great man of God We love him very very very much and he has a great body of work that you need to check out he was with us at Reform Con and You know him because he's been on before but let's bring him in it's

09:24

Andrew Sandler. What's up, baby? So great to be here guys,

09:29

I appreciate all you're doing and Appreciate the fact that you're getting attacked by all the wrong people.

09:36

You know, you're doing what's right when you're getting attacked by People that are either enemies of the

09:42

Lord or not doing the Lord's work So appreciate your stand you guys are just dear friends And I appreciate these topics willing to address these a controversial and difficult topics.

09:51

Yes Well, let's make sure that everyone gets a chance Ahead of time to know where to go to get more from you So, where do you where do you want people to go to get more access to your articles to your teaching?

10:01

Probably the two best places online Are a Christian culture comm that's just written as one word as if it were one word

10:08

Christian culture comm Or just a lot of blog posts. It just Doc Sandlin DOC again thoughtedly as one word doc

10:15

Sandlin comm you can Get all sorts of stuff there and links to everything else and the books and articles and other

10:22

Annoying and intimidating controversial things. That's where you get it all right on Also, I have appreciated the fact that every time you teach now you put it up on iTunes on podcast.

10:32

So Yeah, that's true. I forgot about that. You can definitely get all the teaching and lectures and sermons on iTunes.

10:39

Yeah Very good. Okay guys, let's jump right into it. We have a limited time today We want to make sure there's a fast important meaningful episode for everybody.

10:47

Let's ask the question ahead of time We have a lot of people watching right now online around the world live live streaming and lots of people will see this

10:55

Soon, hopefully very soon in the future. So let's ask the question ahead of time preemptively let's let's get the question out there and let me just ask everybody to Be willing to go to the text and to think through this critically and be challenged yourselves

11:09

Let's all of us be willing to be challenged by other perspectives as we approach it but let's go ahead and ask the question up front if we lived in a

11:19

Godly society. Okay. So there's a first premise or a godly society if we lived in say a nation that had been

11:27

Impacted by the Great Commission all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me therefore go Make disciples of all the nations

11:33

Baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you now Let's say that happens you're in the nation where that actually it's a thing

11:41

Spirit of God moves that nation comes to Jesus and from top to bottom bottom to top

11:47

People are professing Christ and saying we want to obey Jesus. All right now you're in this society now It's a just society a godless society.

11:52

They want to obey Jesus not a perfect society fallible human beings but they want to obey Jesus now you have the case in a society where Abortion is illegal, right?

12:02

It's classified the way that it ought to be classified We see human beings as the image of God we see them as valuable and worthy of protection from the moment of conception

12:10

So it's a biblical worldview society. So this is like a just Perspective what things ought to be like now we have that society that says this is murder

12:20

If you take the life of your child in the womb in an unjustified manner, it's murder, right? So classified biblically, here's the question that I want to ask in that society adjust society

12:32

What ought to be the statute or the punishment?

12:40

Related to the issue of a woman a mother taking a life of her Unborn child in the womb what ought to be the punishment?

12:47

So we see it as human We see it as image of God and she takes the life of her child In an unjustified manner in the womb.

12:54

What ought she to receive as a punishment? death penalty Our perspective.

13:01

Yeah, go ahead. Yes. Yes. Give me that. I asked the audience now go ahead Andrew you start filling in I'm sorry,

13:08

I guess I'm your main audience. I didn't mean to no. No, it's fine. Yeah I think the best way to answer that is something you alluded to Earlier and that is whatever that punishment should be and I I'm gonna tell you in a minute what

13:20

I believe it should be It would be the same as if the child were born because the Bible doesn't really differentiate between what we call pre -born life or what's often called a fetus and Children later or if they were killed infanticide, there's biblically speaking.

13:34

There's no difference between those two so in a society that recognized the authority of the law of God, it's clear that if it were the intentional taking of a human life, whether it's a 72 year old man or a 42 year old

13:50

Down syndrome female or a six or three month quote fetus in the womb if duly convicted and I want to make that very clear duly convicted in the court of law according to Biblical authority and witnesses and so on then the penalty should be

14:06

Definitely capital punishment. We can't make distinctions Modern distinctions based on well the child even if it's a child in the womb is somehow of less value

14:16

Those aren't those aren't biblical distinctions. So I think that's reasonably clear The case that abortion is murder is an inferential one in the

14:25

Bible, but it's also very clear I mean the Bible doesn't say in so many terms abortion is murder, but any intentional willful taking of human life illegitimately,

14:36

I mean apart from legitimate capital punishment warfare and things like that is subject to Capital punishment.

14:44

That's right. I think the Bible is quite obvious and clear about that. This is one reason I know we'd have much time. I want to mention very quickly that sometimes

14:50

I will insert the word Aborticide technically speaking abortion can also include what we call a miscarriage.

14:57

I know we don't use the term that way I'm not saying we change all the language, but the term aborticide is an interesting word

15:03

The reason people don't like that word. It sounds too much like suicide. Yeah, and Infanticide so that's when we talk about abortion.

15:11

We're really technically talking about aborticide the intentional Deprivation of pre -born life and I think the

15:18

Bible in it and that was an important qualification you made yet. Yeah in a biblically Founded society.

15:25

We don't have one of those today. So we're not on a big bandwagon Well, let's just go out and start getting all sorts of women executed

15:31

We're talking about the structure of a biblically ordered society according to God's law Then we have to operate according to God's law and that means that the penalty would be capital punishment, right?

15:39

And it's clear from literally the first book of the Bible to throughout the

15:46

New Testament that capital punishment for the Unjustified taking of human life is what

15:51

God says is the just standard you see that Old Testament And you do see a

15:57

New Testament you do see in the book of Acts post cross post Ascension post

16:02

Sorry, post resurrection post Ascension when the Apostle Paul inspired a possible the way is on trial

16:09

Are being accused he actually says there in that space go read it acts 25

16:14

He says if I've done anything worthy of death, then I do not object to dying So here here you have him actually saying again post cross

16:23

Resurrection and Ascension, right? Very important to put that in there and he says if I've done anything worthy of death,

16:29

I don't object to dying So there's that there's the admission that there are things in the New Covenant After Christ and his resurrection and Ascension that are worthy of death in the judiciary

16:40

Crimes and crimes the difference between crimes and sins. Can you talk about that for a second? Yeah, well, yeah even before I get

16:46

I think this is a good point to insert this but I you know I even the title the article they said you want to Execute, you know women like people when we say that the mothers who have an abortion

16:58

Deserve the death penalty people automatically think we're just gonna go find a woman that had an abortion drag her out in the street and stoner

17:03

Yeah, or we have no no, no, no no perspective on the gospel itself and like what that race

17:09

Yeah, so so it's a crime and any crime that's deserving of the death penalty Needs to go through the proper process of a trial needs to be two to three in lines of independent witness

17:20

And then if they're found guilty, then the death penalty, there's a punishment exactly.

17:26

Yeah, and so It's it's so mind -blowing to me that so many

17:32

Christians You know say well, you know, we should forgive them, you know

17:37

Christ forgive them for their sins. It's like okay There's a difference be here between a sin and a crime

17:42

Yeah, they're all sins but crimes have a legal have legal repercussions to them

17:49

Not all sins do and so we the inability of Christians to think in categories when it comes to this stuff is mind -boggling to me and you know, you and I were talking about yesterday because You know, we saw someone saying that same sort of thing and it's like well

18:03

You wouldn't say you wouldn't treat someone that molested your child in that same way, right?

18:09

You would say they deserve the death penalty Well, it is let's expatiate on it. So you and I were talking about this last night

18:14

Somebody was basically saying I thank God the Apostle Paul like didn't hold this perspective

18:20

I'd like the death penalty for murdering your child sort of a thing You know, he killed Stephen. Thankfully no one held to that and it's like major category error there in terms of Rome and its laws and what was happening at that time and But here's what's interesting.

18:34

I would want to point out to a person that looked at us saying no Let's think about what is just if you murder your child, it ought to be capital punishment

18:41

I can prove that to you from the Old Testament or New Testament. You can't get away from it. It's incontrovertible It cannot be denied period any attempt to get away from that is to just as to is to ignore shut your eyes to God's Word in both

18:53

Testaments but the person who's Complaining about asking the question what ought to happen to a woman who murders her child and saying

19:01

I don't like that That's doesn't seem very Christian. We ought to just forgive them. I said to you last night. They don't really believe it, right?

19:07

They do not believe it and it exposes something here that it's on this issue that you've yielded and you have an unbiblical perspective about what's happening in the in the case of abortion and what the illustration

19:19

I use we used together last night was Imagine for a second a guy comes into your church service this coming

19:26

Sunday he comes into your church service and the gospel is preached in a powerful way in a clear way and this man breaks down in the

19:33

Pews and he is just weeping and crying. He's on his knees. He has a genuine conversion experience

19:39

He is he is weeping over his sins. He says I need Christ. I'm trusting only in Jesus I'm gonna cry the church around is a praise

19:46

God the Spirit of God moved here open this man's eyes Surround this man give him hugs and then the man confesses.

19:52

He says I need to tell you I know that I'm forgiven now, but I got to confess this this past week.

19:59

I molested some children Now all of a sudden the crowd hushes, right?

20:04

Oh, no. Oh, no. Well, but well, listen, you're in you're in Christ now You've you've been forgiven and next thing, you know, the doors blow open and the police department comes running in They've been looking for this guy for the last week.

20:15

They come up to him and they handcuff him. Watch this It would be intellectually inept and it would be foolish

20:22

For those church members now to stand there and look the police officers in the eye and say sirs

20:28

You don't understand this man's received Christ. He's forgiven now, right?

20:33

There's no more penalties everybody knows you wouldn't behave that way in that case and You can go down the line name name the the sin and crime and you'll see the

20:45

Christians actually don't Believe that we should just forget about these things with no civil penalties rape

20:52

Molestation Theft of property Christians will all say well, no you're forgiven in Christ But you're gonna have to face the judicial process and actually pay back that for what you did

21:04

But it's interesting when you get to the question of mothers who murder their preborn children all of a sudden we take our our

21:16

Consistency and we just turn our heads away from it and we go but in this case

21:21

It should just be forgiveness for murdering your child and it reveals something

21:26

About how you really view the issue of abortion and I want to say I think and I mean this very respectfully as respectfully as I Can get it across but I want to challenge you with it

21:35

I think it shows that your perspective on the issue of a woman murdering her child is not God's perspective, right?

21:42

And it's not the perspective of Scripture. Was it? Oh, yeah, it's generally and it's often Jeff not God's perspective on What that child in the womb really is a human created in the image of God no less human and judicially innocent

21:54

Than one born they may say that they believe that But if that same person would say, oh infanticide is terrible.

22:00

It's horrible Yes, these people should be prosecuted if guilty but not on the case of abortion that really shows

22:06

They don't have God's assessment of what that child really is Yeah, I would say was it which serial killer was with a

22:13

John Wayne Gacy. They came to Christ in prison Dommer yes, Dommer.

22:18

Yeah. Yeah, and like that's an example of he was rotting in prison, which you know, according to God's law

22:24

He should have had the death penalty anyways, but yeah, I should have you know, he came to Christ and And sat in jail a long time.

22:31

So we say hallelujah and praise God. Yeah, but no Christians were going. Oh, you know what? Let's get him on a jail get him out

22:36

Joe. He's forgiving Jesus right now. No one said that right exactly Exactly people don't do it And this this is this is really important because listen and I want to say is

22:45

I want to just take that take that take The conversation to a different level for a second here. Okay, I want to be pastoral about this

22:51

We have an apology a church a number of women in our church who have had not just one abortion

22:58

But even multiple abortions and those women are sisters in Christ. They've been forgiven in Christ.

23:03

They are washed They are seen as righteous and blameless. They are not condemned and they never will be because Jesus took their condemnation

23:10

Okay, but we're not talking about what's happened in the past we're talking about Christians working towards justice in the future

23:15

We don't live in that society now We don't live in a society that upholds these judicial standards and sees the the value and the dignity of human life in the womb

23:23

We're not there We are through the proclamation of the gospel and God's standards trying to get there

23:30

For the protection of these innocent children, but we're not there yet. And so no, we're not saying round up Everyone has had an abortion.

23:37

No, we're saying give the gospel to everybody even in the future, but God's law

23:44

Teaches us that there are just standards for dealing with theft rape murder all the rest property issues slavery all that's in there and we do see in Romans 13

23:55

God says that he has given us as a Servant as his servant civil government and that is to protect the righteous and to punish the wicked

24:05

That's that's New Covenant Friends New Covenant the government's role is to be

24:10

God's servant to protect the righteous and to punish the wicked That is in the New Covenant after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

24:17

That is their role now We want governments to obey Jesus because that would be faithfulness and we have to ask the question if they're to obey

24:24

Jesus as a government Where will they look for the standards that they ought to obey

24:30

Jesus? Should they just sort of get into a Coffee shop and start throwing out ideas and spilling what they think about social justice and all the rest or should they get around the holy?

24:39

And inspired inerrant Word of God to say what did God say is the judicial standard that's right in this case

24:46

I think we should look to God's law And good I say on that point actually Andrew. I just heard you this morning

24:52

I was listening to you and you made a great point on this and I honestly I never thought about it this way, but You were in regards to people saying, you know, we we don't need to follow the

25:04

Old Testament laws You know only what's in the New Testament. You were like, well, what did the people in the

25:10

New Testament follow? It was the Old Testament they didn't have a New Testament People say we believe in and being a

25:19

New Testament Christian But they actually were transported got a little time capsule and went back to that period before the

25:25

New Testament was completed These New Testament Christians we read about in the New Testament The only Bible they had was the

25:31

Old Testament so to be a New Testament Christian is obviously also and Necessary to be an Old Testament Christian and a vital aspect of the

25:38

Old Testament, of course is the Torah the Torah the law Amen, and if you guys want to see it an engagement on that point

25:45

I encourage you guys to go check out my discussion with Charles Stanley on this subject I think it's about two hours long and the unbelievable radio.

25:51

What'd I say? You said sure Sorry about that and thank you for the please do that correct me because after the seizure

25:57

I get glitches sometimes Thank you very much for that. I think the Charles I called pastor James this weekend

26:02

Doug white service Doug white I'm just Doug Wilson and James James white.

26:07

We're going together mad Still recovering from the seizures, which I will never have another one again Lord willing, of course, but that's what

26:14

I've been told. Okay. So just a quick review just to talk about like wise is important It's a big deal. The article is written about me in some pretty big publications

26:21

Just read through a few points so we can sort of get a handle on what they were trying to allege and what they thought

26:27

Was a problem hipster says he wants to execute women who have abortions. He looks like your average modern -day

26:32

American hipster. That'd be me You're the Hippest hipster that ever hipped.

26:38

I don't even yeah, but Jeff Durbin's views are resolutely old -school I do like that to the point where he thinks women should be executed if they have an abortion

26:48

Yes, you heard us the 38 -year -old we go on Jeff real quickly here.

26:53

Yeah, that's a remarkable admission Do you know that in this country though? There weren't specifically at least for the most part laws that would require capital punishment for abortion

27:02

There certainly were laws that made abortion illegal. I mean, that's why Roe v. Wade came about in the first place

27:07

So it certainly is old -school to believe that there should be a civil penalty for abortion Yeah, I think that's an important thing for people to recognize particularly those born after 1973.

27:17

Yeah, that's right So it says yes, you heard us the 38 -year -old who is a pastor at Apologia Church in Arizona believes abortion is worse

27:24

Than the Holocaust quotation from me He regularly pickets Planned Parenthood Clinic armed with signs reading babies are murdered here based in Tempe red door ministry run by the

27:33

Apologia Church Is a pro -life group campaigning to overturn Roe v. Wade the landmark 1973 Supreme Court ruling

27:40

They gave women a constitutional right to an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy Durbin said quote we might look different than people without hair and without without hair and suits and ties

27:50

Well, I don't think I said without hair. I think maybe you meant facial hair. Yeah. Oh But our beliefs are pretty

27:56

I said, but our beliefs are pretty ancient Controversially the young pastor even draws a parallel between abortion and the

28:03

Nazi genocide But says the comparison is unfair to Hitler Durbin said quote we consider abortion to be the modern -day

28:09

Holocaust Although I believe it's a bit of an insult to Hitler to compare what he did in Nazi Germany to what we've done before Us if you take the body count of Hitler's Germany to what we've had since Roe v.

28:20

Wade We beat him by the metric ton For the first time in the US's history The number of people who regard themselves as pro -choice outnumbers those who are pro -life according to a 2015

28:28

Gallup poll But with the new president Donald Trump assault in the White House abortion rights are once again back on the political agenda

28:35

He wants abortion to be treated as murder Durbin also believes that women who intentionally abort their fetus should ultimately face the same punishment

28:43

He said quote whether it's a mother who kills her child in the womb or a mother who kills her five -year -old twins by drowning

28:49

Them in the bathtub. We want it to be treated as a murder charge and for that to be applied consistently under the law

28:56

Quote, I believe that a just answer to murder is a death penalty Historically, that's the standard we held for a very long time and ultimately when

29:04

God has spoken on the issue of justice for murder He says it's life for life Well, there you go.

29:10

So There's a where did you say that you want to execute woman? I missed that part. Yeah, exactly

29:15

I think we're talking with the judiciary and let me just say this very important Biblically speaking there are different realms of authority here right and and roles

29:27

Number one, you got the church over here, right? Well, you got you got you know the family you've got the church you got the state but over here in this this realm over Here we got the church.

29:35

It's the church's role to proclaim the Word of God Worship of God. It's the people of God together

29:42

Surrounding the Word of God. There's the the sacraments or ordinances of the church all that's happening within the church, right?

29:48

It's not the pastor or church's role to engage in the realm of civil government to manage that So it would be against my beliefs according to Scripture our beliefs according to Scripture to have anything to do with executing

30:03

Anybody Jeff Durbin and Luke Pearson do not want to execute Anybody we want to preach the gospel to every person we get our hands on or Andrew Sandler for that matter.

30:11

No, that's right Yeah, sorry. I wasn't so sure about Andrew We we want to get the gospel to everyone we get our hands on and want nothing to do with the issue of execution

30:22

However, we do want to speak prophetically to the government from the Word of God as a church as to what their role ought to But it is the role of civil government to actually execute the sort of justice in whatever way whether it's the issue of theft or rape or kidnapping or Or murder, whatever the case may be.

30:43

That's the role of the states not our role And that's those are God's defined roles and God actually deals out some pretty hefty

30:50

Penalties in Scripture for people who tried to breach that line between church and state some significant

30:57

Penalties happened in Scripture as a result of that. So it is not something you want to do. It's very unwise but in this case,

31:04

I Want to ask what the problem is now? There's of course a way that they've spun this but I want to ask what the problem is from a biblical perspective

31:11

When we talk about this is murder and it ought to be treated as murder now, by the way

31:16

That's what we're fighting for. We're fighting for people to look at this consistently to protect these children Do you realize that about 3 ,000 babies are murdered a day in this nation?

31:25

So while listen, here's the thing brothers and sisters while we're talking about this, right? We're like, what do you think? How should we do this?

31:30

What do you I don't know like let's examine this today Before days up about 3 ,000 children are gonna die in this country because the issue abortion.

31:38

So here's the question What are you going to do about it? What are we going to do about it as the church because while we talk and talk and talk babies die and die and die 3 ,000 a day, you know, it's not 60.

31:52

That's wrong. By the way that numbers Roe v. Wade, so, you know, we have 60 plus million babies died since Roe v. Wade.

31:57

No, no, it's much more than that We're not considering abortion pills. We're not considering all the abortifacient birth control pills and all the rest

32:05

We've been killing babies in mass and it's much more than 60 million babies that have been murdered via abortion and abortifacients

32:13

Since Roe v. Wade. It's a lot more 3 ,000 a day. It's just a number We know of like surgical abortions or people go into the the place

32:19

We're not even counting 3 ,000 a day doesn't even count going to target and buying the morning after pill So we're killing a lot of babies

32:26

And so while we talk about killing babies and what ought to be the penalty just remember babies are dying every single day So Christians haven't have to have an answer for this.

32:33

Yeah, we do. Oh That's right. Yes a break time Okay, so we have a lot more to say we're trying to go fast here.

32:40

We're trying to go fast here So stay with us guys. A lot of you guys are watching online right now share this episode across social media

32:46

Let's get the word out. Let's start this discussion Together as the church, we're gonna take a quick commercial break We will be right back stay with us more with Andrew Sandlin Luke the bear and myself the ninja stay with us

32:58

Be right back At the Ezra Institute we are focused on training the current and next generation of Christians to lead in their families churches workplaces schools and every area of culture and to do so with a full strength confidence in the truth beauty and goodness of the gospel of Jesus Christ We think it is critical for Christians to understand that a battle for the direction of culture is upon us and That we are all in that battle whether we want it or not

33:30

The Apostle Paul tells us that the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds

33:37

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God and take every thought captive to obey

33:45

Christ If God has given us weapons the implication is that he expects us to need them and to be using them

33:55

Now as in the Apostle Paul's day Rebellious arguments opinions and thoughts are running unchecked in our culture

34:03

Systematic unbelief is being applied in every realm Seeking to destroy everything in its path whether that be churches families individuals or God honoring institutions and traditions

34:16

This idolatry needs to be confronted by hearts and minds turned to the living God in true worship

34:22

Applying instead God honoring beliefs in every sphere At the runner

34:27

Academy we arm and train emerging leaders to do this very thing by providing comprehensive biblical worldview training in the

34:35

Western heritage The relationship of Christ to culture what it means to be human and the true meaning of freedom

34:44

This two -week program seeks to equip the next generation of Christian leaders to live out their calling in a way that truly honors

34:51

Christ as the Lord of all things especially in areas like medicine law politics education the church business and the arts

35:01

These spheres have a powerful influence on the direction of culture and there is a biblical vision for all of them contained in the

35:08

Word of God The runner Academy is hosted at the EICC Center for Reformational Culture an environment that provides a healthy balance of work and rest and That stimulates creative discussion for engaging with and shaping culture to the glory of God on this 24 acre farm and retreat center

35:30

Delegates can expect to find challenging teaching But also fun and fellowship with like -minded

35:35

Christians who are concerned to recover a vision of God's glory And who are committed to think through what it means to live the

35:42

Christian life in all its fullness Apply today and get equipped to face the critical issues of our time with a deep rich and joyful Confidence in the

35:54

Lordship of Jesus Christ over all life and culture I want their faith to not just be something that stands but something around which culture can be built

36:15

We want students who can think critically about arguments but also about the culture around them that can then speak clearly to it and that also have the ability to Influence in shape because of the power of their message because that's really what the gospel does the gospel

36:30

Throws down all the arguments against it. It speaks to the hearts of people it influences and it changes

36:40

Go to ApologiaStudios .com Get signed up partner with us in all access you get all of the radio programs

36:46

You get the TV show you get the after show including Apologia Academy and you partner with us a ministry bringing the gospel around the world at the

36:56

Ezra Institute We are focused on training the current and next generation of Christians to lead in their families churches workplaces schools

37:05

Welcome back guys. Welcome back Apologia radio gospel heard around the world Another quick verse to give you guys.

37:13

It's one you all know Isaiah 9 6 through 7 for to us a child is born to us a son is given

37:20

We all recognize that's Jesus and the government shall be upon his shoulder and His name should be called wonderful counselor mighty

37:27

God everlasting father prince of peace of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom to establish it and to uphold it with justice and With righteousness from this time forth and forevermore the zeal of the

37:46

Lord of hosts will do this That's a promise from Scripture about the kingdom of the Messiah Jesus is ruling and reigning on his throne.

37:53

Now. He is seated. We all believe that as Christians. He has seated He's the king of kings Lord of Lords has all authority in heaven and on earth

37:59

Now and so of course there's gonna be an increase to his government and of peace no end

38:05

Establishing of a justice and with righteousness forevermore Okay, so a question came up here or something came up here in the in the thread here

38:12

You guys are watching live and question came up and I think it's a good question to ask Well, it was said like this.

38:19

I believe that abortion doctors should receive life in Prison, I want to examine that.

38:26

Can we examine that together? Yes, I believe that abortion doctors should receive life in Prison now,

38:33

I'm gonna just start this discussion by challenging my brothers and sisters on this question I challenge you to find me in the entire

38:42

Bible But specifically the Old Testament where God addresses the issues of justice and society. I want you to find me

38:48

The long -term prison system in the Bible find it find God talking about it

38:53

But go look for it find it in the spaces of Scripture the the Holy God the all -knowing the all -powerful

38:59

God gave us just statutes and laws in terms of handling the sins and crimes that occur within a fallen world whether I mean guys

39:09

Did you know that kidnapping and enslaving is a death penalty issue according to Scripture? Did you know that rape is a death penalty issue according to Scripture and murder and when

39:18

God says there's theft? He doesn't say go spend time in prison for it. He says pay it back That's how you do.

39:23

That's how you deal with theft in God's law pay it back make them whole again That's what that's what you do There's so much there in terms of justice and what

39:31

God says in Deuteronomy 4 is that his law was supposed to be Something the nation's looked in on and we're like man. What kind of God is this?

39:37

What kind of people is this to have the God so near to it as this God and has laws so righteous

39:42

Right so good as this it was supposed to be something that was like a light to the nation's because of that law But know what no prison system.

39:49

No long -term prison system not in the Bible You know why because God's law is concerned with justice

39:56

Justice, which means if I steal from Luke What God requires in terms of making that right is not me just feeling bad about it

40:07

What what has to happen is I have to actually pay Luke back And then double or depending on what was stolen whether it was business related or whatever

40:16

There has to be a repayment to make him whole You know what happens in God's law when you do that when you follow his just standards

40:22

Here's what happens now Luke and I are reconciled Because I've paid him back and made him whole and now

40:28

I can return to society as somebody who has actually made my victim whole I'm okay, right?

40:35

I'm not carrying it with me. I've made it right Right, I'm good. Well in America We went from a biblical standard system where John Jay our first Supreme Court justice was quoting from Copiously from biblical law in in the civil statutes and case law examples

40:50

We it was just assumed in in early America in the colonies. Jesus is Lord. How do we handle criminal code?

40:57

Okay, we looked at God's law. It was just an assumption now. We've moved away from a biblical standard of making things, right?

41:04

to Penitentiaries it's in the word Penitentiaries, what's the goal of modern?

41:12

This modern prison system is to make people penitent, right? It's to make them feel bad

41:17

It's actually work to sort of make them Better right? It's to reform the person.

41:24

It's not gospel centered. It's about putting a human being in a cage Right for I don't know 20 25 years cage human image bearer of God into a cage like an animal saying that time in a cage and Maybe some raping and showers and all the other knife things and other things that happen in prison systems that do

41:43

That's just a common common fair that will make them penitent and reformed

41:48

Whereas God's law says this what happened? Oh you stole. Okay. What'd you steal? Okay So you got to pay that back and then double make it right what happened to you over here?

41:57

Oh you you raped a woman It's judicially proven witnesses evidence. Okay. She's so valuable

42:03

You deserve to die for that like that's that's God's law is you make it right? So again the idea and final word here the idea of prison

42:13

The idea of prison life in prison. Let me just say this watch this a guy kills a lady

42:18

Say he rapes and murders a woman. I'm gonna use the example that's gonna impact us all he rapes and murders a woman or multiple

42:24

Women people say he should get life in prison for that and never get out again, right put him under the jail

42:30

Okay, well he murdered and raped say women He's a serial rapist and killer and now what happens is that he goes into a prison system

42:39

And how do we have to have this function now now? We have to tax the society around the man and they have to take their hard -earned money

42:47

To pay for this man's medical care for the security guards for the heating for the food for the sex change operation

42:55

Whatever the case may be now the community around the murderer and the rapist is now penalized for his crimes how property taxes

43:05

Whatever other taxes that are happening there you're paying for the murderer to be put into jail for life

43:12

So now watch now there's more victims There's the initial victim the woman who was raped and murdered and now there are a million other victims

43:20

Who are being having money and property taken away from them through coercion to pay for his life sentence

43:27

What does God say? Judicially approved raped and murdered the woman you forfeited your right to live capital punishments done.

43:35

It's over. It's over That's how that's how it's handled. I Some of these comments are making my head hurt

43:44

But so something came up here was you know, people are saying well the abortion doctors, you know, they deserve

43:50

They should just get life in prison. So they have a chance to repent and then I saw you know, well

43:56

God's it's God who who seeks revenge not man and I'm like this but then we should do away with all civil government.

44:05

Yeah, silly. I know Well, and it's like obviously Romans 13 clearly talks.

44:10

It says that the government The civil government is God's Avenger of Wrath.

44:16

So it's their job And exactly it's very powerful Luke the point you're making say well the judgment should be left to God Well, actually it is

44:24

Romans 13 says he's deputizing The state of course the state can do evil things and it does but nonetheless it's a legitimate

44:33

Sphere of government and so really God is using the hand of the state to accomplish his will

44:39

Can I mention something going back to what? Jeff said I think what has happened in this whole penitentiary

44:46

Situation is an entire shift away from judicial thinking to experiential thinking So the important thing is not that the standards of justice are met justice in the

44:54

Old Testament in particular is Identical to what we call righteousness fulfilling a particular standard, of course, only

45:00

God is perfectly righteous, but what biblical law does biblical civil law does is restores a

45:07

Biblical standard when it's been broken it makes things right judicially but we've shifted of course in the last hundred hundred fifty years to the of course the feeling and the experience both of the criminal and of the victim and the important thing is that these feelings and experiences are

45:22

Right, and there's an equilibrium, but the Bible is interested in our experience clearly in this case

45:28

It's not fundamentally concerned with our experience either the victims experience or the criminals experience

45:35

It is concerned with restoring that level of righteousness the judicial element We don't even think in judicial terms today or not much and that's why we have this travesty called the prison system.

45:44

Mm -hmm So Andrew what someone says to you? So killing those that kill is okay

45:52

So killing people in those that kill is okay. Oh you mean with respect to capital punishment? Yeah. Oh, yeah

45:58

I mean, I mean think about it some people Christians that may they claim to believe the Bible I guess

46:03

I understand why unbelievers might hold this view. I mean, they don't really believe the Bible anyway, most of them

46:09

But how could Christians that claim to believe the Bible? Do you realize that the first? Civil law laid down in the

46:16

Word of God is the law of capital punishment Now, of course, there were laws before then I mean there were laws in the

46:22

Garden of Eden, but the first clear civil law given in Genesis 9 is The law of capital punishment if you shed man's blood

46:30

Then your blood will be shed and it's implied by the way also and in Genesis 4 Abel Not explicated but certainly implied.

46:39

He said Lord put a mark on me or protect me I've killed my brother that came to that killed my brother Abel and therefore

46:45

I want to be protected So he at least in it, he intrinsically knew he somehow intuitively knew that this was wrong

46:51

So for people to say capital punishment is wrong or or that somehow killing illegitimate killing

46:57

Is to do away with the authority of the scripture it's that one thing that you said there the problem is that's going back to the whole notion of not understanding the judicial element of Biblical law which is that everything has to be conformed what happens when we break

47:13

Biblical law as we break a standard. Well the standard itself in our lives and in society has to be restored and that standard is

47:21

Restored with what you call talked about earlier Jeff with which is restitution when there is legitimate

47:27

Restitution according to biblical law that standard is restored. That's what biblical civil law is all about.

47:33

Mm -hmm. That's right restitution and it's interesting that if you look at the

47:39

Ten Commandments You have the commandments in the Ten Commandments You shall not murder

47:47

Right, it's it's you should but some translations say kill you should not kill thou shall not kill But the the word behind there is about sock and the semantic domain of the word

47:55

There is the assumption is murder and here's what's interesting about it If you look at Exodus 20 and it says you should not kill here

48:03

Moses says you shall not kill right, but then he turns around within a space of a few verses

48:08

Essentially and says and here's what you do to a person who does kill and what he says essentially is the state kills them back

48:16

That's right. That's the best way to put it And now either Moses is ignorant and foolish and can't think consistently or there's a category here

48:27

Moses says through God Don't murder and then he says and here's what you do when someone does

48:33

End up killing another human being the state is to bring the penalty of death

48:39

Upon the person who actually murders another human being it's in the space of a chapter brothers and sisters

48:44

So when we say as Christians God says you should not kill so we shouldn't kill keep reading You don't have to read more than a chapter to see that God also says and in the category of the person who does murder

48:54

The state should give them the death penalty Yeah, and I saw someone else on here and said that won't after I mentioned

49:00

Romans 13 They said well Romans 13 doesn't say anything about execution And actually what it says is that the civil government is to do terror, right?

49:10

Yeah on the Terrorist yeah, that passage really is saying there is one legitimate

49:19

Terrorist in the world right legitimate terrorist and that is the state. Oh, by the way This is why the state should be severely limited.

49:26

Yes to Enforcing God's law appropriate to the civil sphere Yeah, if you have

49:31

God's authority to terrorize people you better make double -dog sure you're doing it exactly, right? That's why it must be bound to biblical law, right?

49:39

Yeah, and so it's it goes on to say that the state is literally God's deacon, right? He's the servant of God. He is the

49:44

Avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer So the question is what is God's wrath on the wrongdoer and that's ultimately the question.

49:52

What is that standard and if it is execution for murder Then they should be carrying out that wrath.

50:00

Mm -hmm Yeah, that's right Protecting lives and it's also as you well know also a deterrent and a mighty deterrent.

50:07

So it is You know, that's a I think guys on this issue it's sad that it's controversial it really shouldn't be right

50:13

I understand how it could be controversial among non -believers or people that don't believe the Bible why it would be controversial among Alleged Bible -believing

50:21

Christians. I just don't understand. Yeah, I agree. Yes very much So and really powerful section of Scripture.

50:28

I just I love is in Ecclesiastes Let's see here.

50:34

Where am I going here? Verse 8 there you go. Okay, Ecclesiastes chapter 8 it says this it says

50:43

Verse 11 because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily

50:49

The heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil Yeah, that's right because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily

50:57

The heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil. So let's say about what's that say about culture and society? well, if your culture and society

51:04

Doesn't execute justice against evil deeds speedily the heart of the children of men is emboldened to do wickedness so you look at a culture in society that is just ramp just rank full of just Pursuit of evil and injustice and wickedness what's going on?

51:22

You know, some of these guys don't have a problem with going to jail for six months You know, I I had a girlfriend in high school.

51:28

I've mentioned this to Luke number times I had a girlfriend high school. She was raped at her birthday party when she was 15 I believe it was 15 years old raped at her birthday party in her own house by a stranger who came and followed a crowd

51:38

Into her room raped her in her bathroom on her bathroom floor, and he was caught six months Six months.

51:45

He did six months in six months in San Diego So he did six months for raping a teenage girl in her bathroom floor on her birthday

51:52

Six months he was out and we wonder How I mean

51:57

Luke and I early on in our ministry. We had a man A Make his way into our church.

52:03

We discovered later was a sex offender He did 15 years in jail for and I'm just gonna

52:10

I'm sorry about the discussion But this is an important discussion to have and we got to be we got to be real with it We got to face it down and we got to talk about it

52:18

So if you have children around you might want to turn it down. I'm just giving you the warning right now This is gonna be a serious subject this man came into our church

52:25

We discovered shortly after that. He was a sex offender and we immediately jumped on it.

52:30

We got him separated from the church we tried to get him some help and We looked into stuff and had a hard time actually tracking down his criminal record to figure out what it was

52:38

He actually did he lied to us about what he did. We did discover later what he did. What did he do 15 years?

52:44

He did for Raping his seven -year -old Stepdaughter through marriage for two years two years.

52:52

He abused this little seven -year -old girl. What did he get? 15 years and what did we face?

52:57

We faced actually this man coming into our church body and trying to wreak havoc upon our church body

53:03

For a period of time we had to end up getting a restraining order against him and we got him We actually thankfully got the man put back in jail again

53:13

And to at least get him in a safe space away from people but Because that's the best we have to work with at this point

53:20

But here's a man who is out of jail After two years of Violating a little girl like this

53:27

These are important issues. They are they are important issues and God's law tells you how to deal with it and Luke do you have something you want to say?

53:36

I just homeboy on here that keeps coming back No, we're not the ones that are inconsistent and even the point you just made sir was that the solution is preaching the gospel

53:46

Yes, the solution is the Great Commission. But what is the Great Commission? It doesn't just stop with preaching the gospel.

53:52

That's right. It includes teaching all that Christ had commanded Yeah, so sir, you are the one being inconsistent here.

53:59

Yeah, and how about this? It's it's amazing here, too When people people love to ignore this is and I don't

54:05

I'm gonna try to be as respectful as I possibly can But people seem to really relish ignoring the very clear passages in Scripture They can't respond to in terms of capital punishment and those sorts of things and they'll say okay

54:17

So you want to execute right? They'll say you want to execute Disobedient children, you know, it's interesting.

54:23

It's very interesting Homosexuals, we we should actually read our Bibles With a close eye to context and it is interesting that in the

54:33

United States of America we actually had a civil law that obeyed that law from Scripture about the incorrigible youth and Disobedient child and it was it's interesting.

54:43

It was it was like the street the three strikes rule kind of a thing Where like if it was the person who was the incorrigible youth, they were constantly committing crimes.

54:51

They couldn't be taken under control Ultimately, they were executed when you had someone that was say like a perfect example

54:57

Perfect example you have a man like I just described maybe who say kidnaps and molests a child.

55:03

He goes to prison He gets out again. He comes back out starts, you know rapes another woman goes back in comes back out like we're talking about a person who's the incorrigible youth the person who's

55:13

Perpetually committing crimes and they can't be gotten under control That's what we're talking about and it's interesting that I believe

55:21

Andrew you might know this better than me. I think it was the 1970s We had those laws in the books of the 1970s of the incorrigible youth that reflected the law of the disobedient child in the

55:30

Old Testament was different with different states, but 60s and 70s. Yeah, that's when they really started going down the drain

55:36

I wanted to mention something. I want to defend apology. I think there may be some listeners who think well

55:42

Yeah, we kind of broadly agree with all this stuff, but it's really sub -christian what you're talking about You guys should be focusing on sort of preaching the gospel helping people be closer to the

55:51

Lord and they know better prayer lives Well, of course, those are essential but I want to make it very clear that God is interested in justice

55:59

He's interested in righteousness. And by the way, not just individual righteousness not just individuals being right with God He's interested in families and churches and entire cultures being right with God So to address these issues and to point out pick up the

56:13

Word of God and to show people what the Word of God Says about these issues that is to be Christian to be

56:19

Christian is to stress the authority of the Word of God in all Areas of life. In fact, I would say we are being sub -christian if we limit it to only individual salvation or church issues or Family issues and don't stress justice in the wider society that I would suggest is marginalizing the gospel very much

56:38

Well, we only have three minutes left here, we're not gonna get to the other discussion, which is okay because we actually Should do something else here.

56:45

Let's get people to something to think about In terms of God's law just a quick thing encourage you guys

56:52

I quoted it already, but I'm gonna get it in full here in Deuteronomy chapter 4 God says

56:59

Regarding his law his statutes, right? He says verse 5 see I have taught you statutes and rules as a

57:04

Lord My God commanded me that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it Here's what God says about those laws

57:10

Keep them and do them for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who?

57:17

When they hear all these statutes will say surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people for what great nation is there?

57:23

That has a God so near to it as Lord our God is to us Whenever we call upon him and here it is and what great nation is there that has statutes and rules?

57:34

So righteous as all this law that I have set before you today Here's a question a loving very humble question truly to my brothers and sisters that are hearing like a concern for justice in the world

57:45

And we look to God's standards for justice from Christians like us. You're saying well, this is new to me I thought we're supposed to be focusing on the gospel grace and love what we say is yes check out

57:53

Apologia Studios You'll see we have a very very solid concern for that and our church is out doing Evangelism literally as we speak right now out at ASU and all the rest and preaching the gospel

58:02

So we're there. Okay, but we do have a concern for justice. This is the question Okay Reflecting on God's law and his statutes that he says here.

58:12

These are so righteous Right and the nation is supposed to look into this and say wow, this is righteousness.

58:18

This is justice. This is an amazing God That's what God says about his own law here So here's the question again when you reflect on these laws that God gave here that are just Question today under the new covenants.

58:30

We still have people murdering We still have rape happening We still have kidnapping happening.

58:36

We still have theft happening. We still have all these things in society around us So we've got to handle those things, right?

58:44

We haven't been taken out of the earth They're still here and we're we're being impacted by them many times and they're all around us

58:51

Something has to be done. There must be an answer So from a Christian perspective when we reflect on what

58:56

God said about these laws and statutes Here's the question I have to ask be ready for it Were those laws just?

59:04

So when God says execute the kidnapper and the enslaver My question is this was that law just and if you say yes, good

59:12

Stay with me. If God says execute the murderer in the Old Testament and new by the way But if God says that is it just yes or no, and if you say yes, good

59:23

Okay So go down the line and ask the question about the theft and all the other things ask the question Is that just and we have to say as Christians?

59:30

Yes So my question is today in today's society when we face down the exact same crimes that are spoken to in the

59:38

Old Testament How are we to handle them in a just way in a creative way in an unjust way?

59:46

What ought to be the standard now in the New Covenant as New Covenant Christians in the world around us? Should we actually appeal to God's just standards or some other standard and if you say oh, no, no some other standard

59:56

I would ask the question by what standard who says should we just make up a creative judgment?

01:00:04

Is it just how do you know that? It's just is it righteous? What's what's the standard we're supposed to appeal to know now post

01:00:11

Christ or cross and ascension and resurrection? Because all these things are still happening

01:00:16

And if you say yeah, that was truly just then my answer is that's what God's establishing in the world

01:00:21

Justice and I'll leave with this and give it over to Pastor Luke to finish up here Isaiah 42 Prophecy about Jesus.

01:00:28

Here's what it says behold my servant whom I uphold my chosen and whom my soul delights I've put my spirit upon him.

01:00:33

He will please hear the promise brothers and sisters He will bring forth justice to the nations

01:00:41

He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice or make it heard in the street a bruised reed He will not break and a faintly burning wick.

01:00:47

He will not quench. He will faithfully bring forth justice He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth and the coast lands wait for his

01:01:05

Torah Amen his law Yeah, I just kind of close up we were talking where I think

01:01:13

I just want to encourage Christians to Think be able to think in categories and not conflate everything into one

01:01:24

Category, which is kind of what we've been dealing with here. So crim crime and sins.

01:01:29

They're separate They're not the same thing. The government should be acting as God's deacon his avenger of wrath and they should be doing so according to his

01:01:41

Righteous standard for law and justice and if they are not then they are in sin and are accountable to God This isn't us putting our faith and trust in the government.

01:01:52

It's putting our faith and trust in God and his righteous standards. Amen, Andrew Yes, sir,

01:01:58

I would say that if the civil government is not enforcing God's standard found in his word that is the standard appropriate to it and that is

01:02:09

Crimes suppressing crimes and most sins are not crimes But if it's not doing that what will be the standard and they're the answer to that actually can be very ominous

01:02:18

It'll be what a group of men say group of men and women. It'll be what one man says and dictatorships

01:02:24

It'll be what the majority says In Nazi Germany, it could be killing

01:02:30

Christians or just killing homosexuals or killing Jews or killing whomever you want

01:02:36

The the advantage of God's law and why Other nations look to Israel or were to look to Israel is that it's an absolute just standard

01:02:45

Standard that forbids men from sort of devising sinful men from devising their own standard because if we don't have

01:02:51

God's righteous Standard for civil law, we will substitute man's unrighteous standard and that is a very frightening thing very much.

01:03:00

So Andrew Sandlin Andrew one more time for the people who just jumped on today Where can they go to get more from you?

01:03:08

Thank you, sir. Appreciate having me on Jeff. Yes, it's Christian culture written One as one word

01:03:13

Christian culture comm or doc Sandlin calm Or an iTunes just put my name in there and you'll get a bunch of sermons and lectures and other stuff.

01:03:20

All right, dr Sandlin, thank you, brother. I look forward to having on again soon You bet maybe we'll get to that second topic.

01:03:27

Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully maybe maybe next week. We'll do it. All right, brother Thank you so much.

01:03:32

Love you, man. All right. All right guys pastor Luke the bear Peace out.

01:03:37

I'm Jeff the calm of the ninja go to apologia studios Calm to get more get all the past radio episodes all that stuff the podcast all that is there go to sheologians

01:03:45

It's an apology of studios calm go to cultish Apology of studios calm. We're actually getting soon in studio one of Warren Jeff's wives

01:03:55

His old his old wives will be in here on cultish in the studio. Very big deal Warren Jeff heard that that Fundamentalist Latter -day

01:04:02

Saint cult. Yeah, one of his wives. It's gonna be right here talking to us. So a very big deal

01:04:07

So cultish is there sheologians there. We have a new show. We're in production with right now. That's coming soon.

01:04:14

It's called I Lost it. You're talking about Zack and Desi. Yes Provoked yes, so all kinds of things happen here guys

01:04:22

But go to apology studios comm sign up with us guys for all access get content For days all kinds of extra training academies and please be in prayer for us

01:04:30

We hope to announce very very soon in addition to apology all access be in prayer. It's not fully settled yet We're the tail end of it.

01:04:37

Let me just tell you right now If it happens, how do I what your appetite to pray for this if it happens?

01:04:43

Apology, uh all access will literally be a seminary education Literally, yes, it will literally be seminary education level

01:04:53

So epic stuff and just be in prayer for it It's coming apology all access sign up now apology studios comm because when it happens

01:05:01

It's a method we're gonna have to raise the price a little bit When that happens because of the nature of it, but we won't do that.

01:05:08

We won't do it for the old people, right? So sign up now we mean people that are grandfathered and not the great old.

01:05:15

Yeah, not you old people No, not just the grandfathered in. Yes. That's right. Thank you. Luke always says to help me with my speech So Stay with us guys next couple of weeks big things happening be in prayer for Oklahoma big important bill happening in Oklahoma senator

01:05:30

Joseph silk trying to criminalize and Abolish abortion we're gonna be there abolition day is coming up February 11th at the state capital,

01:05:43

Oklahoma City be there. We're gonna be there Also, we have some important things happening in Ireland and Scotland right now

01:05:49

So we'll keep you guys Updated with that for now and abortion now comm is where you guys go to get free training and for resources.