American Christianity Needs Revival — Kevin Turner

This is Sid Roth saying, I have a vision. Now is the set time to blow the trumpet in Zion. Shalom, Mishpochah. Shalom, family. Mishpochah, it's a Hebrew word. It means family. And we're the Mishpochah, the family with a Jewish heart, made up of Jewish and non-Jewish people that are one new man.

Messiah Yeshua, Messiah Jesus. Getting ready, Mishpochah, to blow the grandest shofar, or the grandest trumpet in Zion. We want everyone everywhere to hear the good news. We want everyone everywhere to be red-hot for the Messiah.

The American Church’s Watered-Down Discipleship

But you know, it's kind of difficult here in 21st century America, because the gospel has been so watered down. Discipleship has been so watered down that I recently read Charisma magazine, and I saw an article in here that that piqued my interest, written by a man I've interviewed previously.

The title of the article is, Why Isn't the American Church Growing? The author, Kevin Turner, president of Strategic World Impact. He works in primarily three areas, war zones, disaster areas, and where Christians are being persecuted.

Kevin, where am I speaking to you from right now?

Well, I'm calling you from Africa, continent of Africa, and I'm right on the border. Well, I'm actually here almost 10 years.

Now listen, I have a problem with the watered-down discipleship, seeker-sensitive Christianity in America. If I have a problem, I imagine that you have a bigger problem. How did we get from the book to what we have?

Well, I think one of the reasons is simply the fact that people thought that by lowering the bar, lowering the bar of discipleship, that we could possibly increase the numbers. And it's indicative of our society, because when you talk to a pastor or anybody else anymore, it's how big their church is.

And we're not interested in quantity, I'm interested in quality. And what I see all the time is, we're just fat. And so to do that, we have to have these seeker-sensitive churches that literally alienate and destroy the very foundations of the Word of God, so that we can have these wannabe disciples who truly have never been born again.

But you know what? I think many have been born again, but they stay babies.

Well, all I know is there's two things that are indicative of a baby. When that baby comes out of his mother's womb, one, he'll cry, and two, he longs for milk. And Peter said, his newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the Word.

And I have a hard time believing that we can call people, say they're born again, they have no desire to be in fellowship, they have no desire for the Word of God, they don't cry out to the father or mother.

You see what I mean? They're not crying to Father God, saying, you know, God touch me, fill me, cleanse me, purify me. And so there's no signs of life other than this. We teach them how to be religious.

We teach them how to pray. We bribe them to come to church. We pick them up and bring them there. We take them to lunch afterwards. And really, what we have is flesh born of flesh. It's not spirit born of the Spirit.

Prosperity, Persecution, and the Holy Spirit

In America, it's an unreal moment in history. There has never been a country where the average person is as prosperous, almost lives, not almost, lives like a king of former generations. We basically don't have any persecution.

Yes, we had 9 -11, but basically we're like in a bubble. I want you to tell me a bit about what's going on in the rest of the world.

Let me address the whole issue of persecution. Scripture plainly states in Timothy that anyone who desires to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. And unfortunately, most Americans do nothing if it were never written.

I believe that even in America, you can live your life in such a way that you do receive persecution. Now, it may not be the same as in Sudan or in Saudi Arabia or in Eritrea or many of the countries that I've worked in.

But there's alienation. I think one of the big things is, see, we don't want to lose our good reputation. We don't want to be thought less of than we think we're worth. And what I see around the world, the contrast to that.

I mean, we're Muslim converts who were fundamentalists. That what baptism means to them is more than being buried with Christ in baptism and raised to walk a newness of life through the power of the Holy Spirit.

It means the threat of death. It means utter alienation from your family. It means that husbands can have their wives taken away. It means their children can be taken away. It means it becomes their all in all.

Let me let me read a short paragraph from your article. Why isn't the American church growing? A Chinese Christian recently visited the United States and toured churches here. At the end of the trip, he was asked what he thought about American spirituality.

He answered, quote, I'm amazed at how much the church in America can accomplish without the Holy Spirit, end quote. Yeah, I think what it reminds me of a top Christian television personality that that fell and ended up in prison and I went to visit him in prison and I talked about some of the large media ministries in the United States.

And I said, you know, they've they've got to be from God, because look how big they are. Look, look how they're growing so much. And he looked at me, he smiled and then he almost laughed. And he said, listen, when you've got the gifting from God, you can build any size organization you want to.

And God doesn't even have to be in it.

Sad. Unfortunately, you just hit a heartstring of mine, because I believe that many of the ministers of America in my own heart believe me this thing. In other words, some call are without repentance.

He desires through love to touch us that we might be used for his glory. But what happens in the end, we're building our own kingdoms, we're prostituting his graces. And in the end, we're lifted up in pride.

We come under the same condemnation of the devil. And and I believe that part of the key to why America isn't experiencing revival, one of the reasons is simply that God can't trust us. With his Holy Spirit, I remember one time I was praying.

The Danger of Ministerial Success

In fact, I was asking the Lord about healing for certain people. And I'm in the shower, taking a shower and getting all cleaned. And really, basically what I'm doing is I'm trying to convince the Lord to use me to heal some people.

And I remember he spoke to me so gently and it cut me like a knife. He said, Kevin, would you want those people to be healed if nobody knew you were involved? Immediately. That nails you. My heart was broken.

I thought, God, you know, what's the sense of glory if you don't get any of it? Right. And this is the thing that can affect my heart, that can affect your heart. The battle that I face as a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ isn't failure.

My face is success. I remember one time we were shipping supplies into Serbia. They were under sanctions under Resolution 724 with the UN. And I had special clearance to ship in medical supplies and various things.

And I was billed as the wonder boy. Boy, if anybody could get it in, Kevin could. And I remember my containers were sitting in Piraeus, Greece, one of the largest shipping ports in the world. And I'm supposed to get these things up to Serbia.

I had two weeks and I was going to travel through their flat at Budapest. Well, nothing was moving. I'm staying at this old Bible school up in the top floor. And again and again, nothing moved day after day.

I spent over twenty four thousand dollars. I was personally in debt. And literally each day, here's what I noticed. My prayers at the end of the day got shorter and shorter. And finally, I came down, crawled up those stairs, fell down on that creaky wooden floor.

Just me and Jesus. And I prayed one of the truest prayers I've ever prayed in my life. All I said was this, why? And the Lord spoke to me as clear as a bell. He said, Kevin, you don't want those containers in there for those people.

You want those containers in there so you look good. And this is what the Lord taught me, and I pray to God I never forget. He said, you know what, Kevin? Everybody wants to be my personal success, just didn't being a failure for me.

And there on that floor, all alone in Greece, I had a good old fashioned death, burial and resurrection. And before Jesus, with a broken heart, I saw my arrogance and my vanity and my pride. And I cried out.

I said, from this day forward, I resign myself to be content to be your personal failure. And what I mean by that, it's not that God destroys everything around you. It's that you're content not to look good.

It's that you're content just to be faithful, whether the world applauds you or not. So success is the biggest danger that I have ever seen in my personal life. And unfortunately, fatality has consumed the average pastor because he sees a couple of mega churches on TV and they laud themselves as the new approach.

And the next thing you know, everybody's lining up and you're making these gospel puppet preachers who have no unction, no anointing of the Holy Spirit because they haven't sought God. They've just looked at a program or a method.

But the Bible says God calls a man. And this is what I see in my own heart and in the nation. This is the thing I see.

And it breaks my heart. My guest, by way of telephone, is Kevin Turner and Kevin's president of Strategic World Impact. I'm catching up with him with his office in the Sudan, Africa area, and he's at their base with his entire family there.

He works primarily in war zones, disaster areas and where there's Christian persecution. Kevin, you've got a young family. You're a young man. Why are you putting your life on the line and your family's life on the line?

Now, you could do very well in America. You know that. I know that. God knows that.

Counting the Cost of Missionary Discipleship

Why are you? There's a there's a really incredible hymn that I think will sum it up for you. And then the second stanza and people forget this one. And when it is over, how glad I shall be if the lamp of my life has been burned out for thee.

We don't hear things like that here in America. Tell me just three or four hotspots and persecution that's going on to Christians. I mean, you don't have to go any further than Sudan. I don't understand why the world hasn't been in an outrage over this for years.

They've been systematically murdering Christians.

I don't get it, Kevin. Well, unfortunately, I think that, you know, the God of this world has blinded the eyes of our press and various things. And so that he's subjected to genocide. A couple million.

In the last in the last, in fact, me and my wife were counting in the last eight months on five occasions, our lives have been directly spared. We had literally 26 jihadists. They were posted on the roadside waiting to attack us with RPGs and machine gun fire.

And the Lord prevented that from taking place. And and all I can say is this, I believe the greatest thing in life would be for me to live for Jesus. And the second thing is to lay my life down for him.

I believe theologically that Jesus said, come and die. And he meant it.

Question, he meant that that's one thing for you. Wait a second, Kevin. That is one thing for you. And yes, he meant that. But how come you have your family? How old are your children?

Well, my oldest is 14. My daughter, in fact, she was attacked here in Africa. And my my second daughter is eight. I'm sorry, 11. And my son is eight. And what's really interesting about that, we wrote an article, me and my daughter together.

My 14 wife. You know, why was she? Wait, wait a second. Why was she attacked? Well, we were because of the country and it was actually an insane man who jumped out and grabbed her by the neck and began up of about 50.

Barely got out of there with our lives. It was just me, my wife and my daughter.

Why did the mob attack you? I understand a crazy man, but why the mob?

Well, they're Muslims. And I think what happened is, you know, we're very well known that we're Christians and they were beating, trying to smash our windshields on our vehicle, which I literally had to fight to get my wife and my daughter into.

They were sitting inside screaming. And when we finally got back to our mission compound, my wife was, I mean, incredibly disturbed, as you can imagine. My daughter's crying. Probably five a .m. My wife had finally stayed up even a little bit longer to pray.

And the next couple hours she woke up and she said, Kevin, I just want to know why. Why did God allow this to happen? I said, because he's giving us the ability to understand what Calvary love is all about.

The love of the flesh only goes so far. But to love people that attack your daughter, well, that's Calvary love. That's the love of Jesus. And what we're able to do through that was grow. And the most important thing out of that entire episode for me was seeing my 14 year old daughter.

She was 13 at the time, weeping. She just turned 14, weeping, crying, pleading with us that she wanted to stay. She didn't want to leave. My wife was ready to change the tickets. And finally, the Lord touched her heart.

We ended up staying. When we went back to America, I was scheduled to come back to Sudan. And my daughter was weeping, saying, Dad, you can't go without me, without me. You've got to take me. I have to go back.

And I'm thinking, this is in the heart of a 14 year old girl who understands what Jesus meant when he said, come and follow me. You know what the modern lie, the biggest lie in the church in America is today?

What's that? It's called the doctrine of inexpendability. And what the pastors, the preachers and evangelists have told the church in America today is, you're too important to die. You're too important to lay down your life.

If you're going to have good ministry, it needs to be long ministry. And as Jim Elliott wrote in his diary before he was speared to death by the Elka Indians, he said, canst thou bear the short-lived life, O my soul?

And I thank God John Baptist didn't subscribe to that false theology. I believe and therefore I live. And until I knew Jesus, I never had hope. I didn't have anything worth living for. I didn't have anything to die for.

But he revolutionized my life. And because of that, I want to live for him and even die in his service.

Kevin, what is it like when you're in a life threatening situation, which happens to you more than we have time to discuss, and you feel Jesus with you?

This right now, I sometimes almost think that I'm in an adrenaline junkie because if I'm going to be alive tomorrow, I remember one time, in fact, we were attacked by helicopter gunships. I had my right knee ripped open, gotten killed around me.

I ended up running 90 miles through the desert. And as they were shooting at me, rockets, my brains by a rocket, I was crawling on my hands and knees and trying to get into these huge rocks. And I remember as I clawed my way up the side of this mountain and I finally saw this crevice in these rocks, I crawled in and I thought, if I can just get in there, I'll be safe from the fire.

These are helicopter gunships circling us. And literally, when I crawled into that crevice in those rocks, Jesus met me in there and this is what he said. He said, Kevin, he said, I'll hide you here in the cleft of the rock and I'll cover you with my hand.

And I'll tell you, there's not a dime, there's not a million dollars, there's nothing in response to knowing that Jesus called me by name and he put his hand on me. And and there's there's there's something that you get to experience when you say, Jesus, you're my all in all.

And when he's your treasure and and of course, we know he lives in heaven at the right hand of the father, then the things of this earth grow strangely dim. And and it's not about your kids and it's and it's not about living for your wife or or any other thing.

It's simply this to live as Christ and to die as gain. And the only way that can be a reality, the only way that you can truly say that is when Jesus is more important to you than any.

Finding Christ in Suffering and Calamity

You know, I was reading that article that caused me to call you just outside of Sudan, Africa, and I want to quote from it. It says a Chinese Christian who spent more than 26 years in a tiny prison cell was asked upon his release how he handled this confinement.

His answer rocked me to the core. He said it was like a honeymoon with Jesus. Do you remember when he said that, Kevin?

Yes. In fact, I also remember being there in that underground church and meeting with this precious saint. He was actually good friends with Watchman Nee. They were part of what they called the Magnificent Seven of China, along with Alan Yu and Samuel Lam.

And what was this book about his life called Before I Could Sit With Him? I had to get to the front of the church because they were calling me to the front. It was so packed with bodies seated on the floor that the only way I could get there was to step on the hands, on the knees, on the on the people that were sitting there on the floor worshiping.

And I was so humbled because they weren't looking up at me saying, Hey, buddy, you bumped me. Hey, you stepped on me. They were smiling with the radiance of the Son of God. I got to the front of there and I sat with a man who'd been in prison for 27 years.

He said that after 12 hours of forced labor, he would literally have 10 minutes outside behind his cell. And he said his only consolation in life was he would hum the old rugged cross to himself. And I thought, Jesus, this man knows you in a way that I only dream of.

And what I've seen in life, Sid, is this. Calamity clarifies and comfort confuses. When the church in America wants to say how God has blessed them, they point to things. When the church around the world wants to say how God has blessed them, they point to souls.

They point to the interaction and the divine intercourse of God in their soul. And it's so valuable. It's such a precious thing. It blows my mind.

You know, the most popular message on American Christian TV today is give to my ministry and you will have such abundance of money and wealth. How far removed is that from the book, the Bible?

Well, my message to the church in America is come and die. Few people take me up on it. But I believe with all my heart that I have a divine obligation to stand up and say, come and be a martyr for Jesus.

Come and lay down your life for something more important than yourself.

Material Blessings Versus Spiritual Blessing

Kevin, you were talking about a third world country that some Americans said, what can we pray for you? What did they say?

They were actually being asked. This was actually in Vietnam with, of course, massive persecution from the Communist Party there of any type of what they would call unsanctioned church activity. Because they're being asked if they, you know, wanted to have the American church pray for, you know, everything would open up for you.

And in fact, almost in horror, they said, oh, no, no. Pray instead that we have opened heavens and why the church is growing in Vietnam like wildfire and why it's stagnating in America. Because what they realize is that it's about a spiritual blessing.

In America, we have this mentality of I will have it and I will have it now. I will have heaven on earth. I will not have delayed gratification. I will not endure hardship. I will not suffer loss. The average Christian in America, if I tell them that my daughter was attacked and we stayed, they look at me as if I am a horrible father because I would subject my family to that.

And instead, what we have is we have the blessing of the presence of Jesus comforting us. And you know what me and my wife did? And some people might almost find this unbelievable. But we gathered hands in her bedroom and we prayed and we said, Jesus, you've loaned these children to us and we give them back to you.

And God, you know, our hearts would be utterly broken. But if you see fit that their lives be taken, then we give all glory to you. Now, to some people, that's incomprehensible. But when you meet the king, no price in my hand I bring simply to the cross I cling.

I love him.

Ms. Bocha, you're not listening to a man talking theory. You're listening to a man that because of his work for the gospel in these areas that are terrorist based, there have been contracts for his life.

Tell me about one circumstance.

Well, we actually were up in an area in northeastern Sudan where Osama bin Laden had his hideout terrorist training camp for two and a half years. We actually showed, in fact, CBN, Christian Broadcasting Network, played the video.

We showed the Jesus film on the wall of bin Laden's former compound. We were sharing it there in a Muslim kolawasa, an Islamic training school, sharing the Jesus film on the wall there. It was utterly divine.

And because of our continued work in this heavily, this fundamentalist Islamic area, of course, it's aroused attention. And the Saudis, our wonderful friends, have they.

Does it bother you when I know you said that tongue in cheek, but does it bother you that the U .S. is such friends so much to speak in bed with Saudi Arabia?

You have no idea. And working so much in the Middle East, when I mean against America, I mean, because they can't differentiate between a born-again believer and Madonna who wears a cross and then, you know, dances nude.

And so a target against America, in their mind, is a target against Christianity. And that was the same reason that three Yemeni terrorists came to take up this half a million dollar fatwa that was put on my head, this contract, and kill me.

Well, for five years working in this area, we have been reaching out to this other Muslim tribe that's unreached, and we've built great friendships with them. And in the midst of that, they spared my life.

Because while I was out there with my family, these three terrorists came through the desert coming to kill us. They had our ID badges. They knew what they were. They knew my name, the whole shot. And they were captured by these other, this Muslim tribe.

Well, the two of them were interrogated and beaten so bad that I couldn't meet with them. But I did meet with one of the three. This man was in a hut with his blindfolded arms tied behind his back, and they let me meet with him way out in the desert.

Now, why did one Muslim tribe beat up these terrorists?

Well, because they wanted to know what they were about. And when they found, and as they were trying to find out, they found out that they'd come to kill me. And I'm their friend. And to them, they're thinking, hey, wait a second.

This guy has spent five years on the front lines with us, risking his life, bringing food, medicine, and help to us. He's actually prayed for rain. And in the midst of a four-year famine, it rained in 20 minutes.

I mean, we have seen incredible, miraculous things where we've joined hands. We walked outside of a Bedouin hut. They said their greatest need was rain. And I said, look, I know the rainmaker. I said, please, we're going to go pray.

I had a small team. My wife was at my side. We walked out from this Bedouin hut after drinking a big slug of camel's milk. And we joined hands. Not a cloud in the sky. It's about 120 degrees. Four-year drought.

We joined hands and said, Jesus, glorify yourself. And if it be your will, send rain on these people. Within 10 minutes, the sky was clouding over, growing black. In 20 minutes, there was such a hard truck got stuck several times, just trying to get back out to our base.

Hmm. So let's take you back to that hut. These terrorists, Muslim extremist terrorists. Well, I shouldn't say extremist terrorists. The terrorist is always extremist. They were sent there to kill you.

Your Muslim friends caught them, beat them up. And you now are in front of one that was sent to kill you. What happened?

Unfolded. And I'm asking him questions. And he said that he'd come to kill an enemy of Islam. He didn't know that it was me asking. I said, I'm the man you were sent to kill. He immediately began to tremble.

And I put my head on his hand. Between Islam and Christianity. In Islam, you're taught to hate and kill. In Christianity, we're taught to love and lay down our lives. And I said, I can't let you go. And I can't keep you.

That's not in my power. But the power I have right now, I give. I said, in the name of Jesus Christ, I forgive you of this sin. And I beg God to forgive you now in Jesus' name. This man began to utterly weep.

One of the men smashed seven. And they began to stomp on him because he was crying. And they pushed me out of the hut. I began to scream and holler. I said, stop beating this man. Stop. He hears me pleading on his behalf when he had been sent to kill me.

When I went back into the hut, he was on his knees. And he staggered, was crawling on his knees. And his arms were tied behind his back. When he did, he fell forward. No arms to stop him. His forehead landed on the tops of the sole of my shoe.

Then immediately, the Lord spoke. He said, surely the Lord will make your enemy a footstool. And then instantly, I realized that Jesus loved this man so much that he allowed him to come to try and kill me.

So that there in a mud hut in Sudan, I could lay my head on his hand and pray the Holy Spirit touch him and share the gospel with him. And I thought, God, this is how you set Paul the apostle free. This is how you desire to seek and save that which was lost.

And I thought, Jesus, you'd send a terrorist to kill me just so he could be blessed and hear the message of good news. And over and over again for the last 15 years of my life, I've seen one miracle after another by just simply walking with Jesus.

It's amazing.

Radical Discipleship and Obedience

You're listening to Kevin Turner, president of Strategic World Impact. I'm speaking to him at his base just outside of the Sudan area in Africa. Kevin, why did you do this special teaching? We call it Kevin's teaching that we're making available this week.

That was on my heart. And I believe, of course, put there by the Lord. I call it compliance of principle. And it's this infection that has seeped into the church. And what scares me is the fact that we've been inoculated and we can't even get the disease anymore.

And we're now, we're blinded. It's not simply that we turn a deaf ear. We don't even hear it anymore. And basically, I just challenged the believer to say, what does discipleship truly mean? Could it be so radical as laying down your life?

And it's about compliance, living your life in simple compliance to the letter of the law or living your life in principle through love. There's a Puritan proverb that says, love binds without a cord and it rules without the sword.

I have on the telephone, Kevin Turner, caught up with him at his base just outside of Sudan, Africa. And he is president of Strategic World Impact. He works in three areas, war zones, disaster areas, and areas that Christians are being persecuted in.

He wrote an article and that's why I called him. The article is called, Why Isn't the American Church Growing? Kevin, why isn't? I mean, when we see other parts of the world, it's growing so fast, we can't keep track of the number of people that are being saved and radically discipled.

But here in America, the church really isn't growing.

Why? Well, and statistic that might astound people is that I speak in churches all over the United States and I ask people this one question, what is the largest Christian country in the world? And of course, a lot of people say the United States or some, the country with the largest amount of, the largest Christian, where preaching is restricted and you can't hear legally the gospel until you're at the age of 18.

And they have the largest population of Christians. And the reason that I believe is I've worked in almost 100 nations and here's what I've seen over and over again. Comfort, calamity, calamity strikes.

We're no longer concerned about the mortgage. We're no longer concerned about the lawn care. We're instantly absorbed with one important thing and that's life. And it teaches us. And there's another principle that I use all the time as I'm preaching.

And it's this, that persecution purifies and prosperity often pollutes.

Well, would you define 21st century American Christianity as polluted?

It's hot tub religion at its best. When Christians speak of their blessings in America, they point to things. They say, look how God has blessed me. I have this. I have this. I've got this boat. I've got this lake home.

And it's this whole thing of having heaven now versus living your life. You know, there were two young men who started one of the largest mission revolutions that we had seen since the disciples. There were two young Moravian men.

They were with a man named Count Zinzendorf in northern Germany. They experienced a massive revival. God had so touched and quickened their hearts. And these two young men became aware that in the West Indies, which would be modern day Jamaica, that there were 5 ,000 black slaves on an island that were owned by a godless man who said publicly, no Christian, no man of God will ever step foot on my island and pervert the mind of my slaves with this foolish Christianity.

When these two young men heard that, they were cut to the core. They prayed, committed themselves, and did the unthinkable. There was no way they could access that island except one way. They sold themselves into slavery simply to be a love slave for Jesus.

The man was such a miser that they actually had to use the money from the sale of their bodies to pay their ship fare to get there. Within 20 years, had sent out more missionaries than all of Christendom before that time.

We come to the place of utter resignation, take me where you want me to go. That's when you're ready for a revolution of love.

You know, it really clarifies your theology here in America. We strain at a gnat and swallow a camel and argue about different jots and tittles of theology. But where the rubber meets the road is what you're talking about.

It's more than just some pie-in-the-sky theology. And believe me, I study the Word of God. I have an 11 ,000-volume library. I love to read. I've studied theology. And to study theology is to know God.

But when our aim becomes simply knowledge rather than to know Him, it's when we run askew. And that's why we have swivel-chair theologians in America sitting in ivory towers handing out edicts to the people down below.

And we're producing cookie-cutter Christians that have never had an experience with Christ. And this is the reason I believe with all my heart that the Church isn't growing because they have no raison d 'etre.

They have no reason for living. My passionate heart cry is that the Church once again would say, Jesus, I sell myself to be your love slave. I give you my life. The man who discipled me, Leonard Ravenhill, said this.

He said, Kevin, you lay your life down on the altar and let God burn you up. And he said he'll do more with the ashes of your life than you could if you possess the whole thing.

Persecution as a Purifying Fire

Kevin, what will it take for our version of Christianity here in the West to change?

To quote Leonard Ravenhill, he said that in America, we will either have Pentecost. He said we'll end up having Pentecost in the West. I believe that Jesus loves America so much that he'll let us suffer persecution.

I believe he loves us so much that he will take us through the fire. And I tell people all the time, remember, when the three Hebrew children were thrown into the fire, it's then that the pagan ungodly world looked in and said, hey, who's the fourth man?

If we want to see Jesus revealed to the world, then we will be willing to go through the fire, not around it. And this is how we become Jesus with skin on. This is how we... You know, people talk in theology, Jesus is the propitiation for our sins.

In other words, he was that thing which took away the anger of God and his cross became that propitiation for us. Our cross, our cross is for propagation, to get out. It's to lay your life down. It's so that people know that Jesus is alive and well and he rose again from the dead.