2024 Summer of Interviews: Rochadd Hendrix Interview: Why Should Lay People Study Theology? (Part 1)

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, �But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn�t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we�re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here�s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

Family Background, Grief, and Seminary

My name is Mike Abendroth. Today, special edition. Pastor Pat Abendroth from Omaha Bible Church and the Pactum, his podcast was here in West Boylston, Massachusetts, preaching. And we did a Sunday School where Tuesday Guy, Pastor Steve, interviewed both Pat and myself, and we recorded it, and we thought we�d play it today and next show.

So today is Mike and Pat and Steve at Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston, Massachusetts, with a Q &A, kind of get to know ministry, philosophy, issues of the day, etc. I hope you�re encouraged.

Pat is Mike�s, obviously, his younger brother. What do you mean, obviously? The hair. Notice I have hair. It�s a clue, although it�s not always telling. Well, I won�t talk about my brother, but he has no hair.

He was here a few weeks ago. Mike just tells me, if you want to know what you�re going to be like in nine years, just look at me.

Yeah, that�s not going to happen. Pat is the pastor at Omaha Bible Church and has been for how many years? Since 1998. Since 1998. I can�t do the math. Let�s call it 24 years. So quite a while. And Pat also has a podcast called The Pactum where he stars and sells coffee on the side and all kind of merch.

Anything else I should say about him? That�s good. You�re just the smartest guy up here. So yeah, that�s good. Well Pat, let me ask you this. Your dad died in 1989. What kind of impact did that have on you?

Where were you then and how did it impact your life? Okay, good morning everyone. Thanks for hosting.

Thanks for allowing me to be here. I love BBC. I love my brother. I love Steve. So Mike and I were in New York City doing a conference, had a great time. Puffy eyes because we just got into town. So anyway.

So yeah, our dad died in 1989. Is that what you said? That�s what Mike told me. I think it�s probably the biggest, most significant event in my entire life other than conversion. I think the Lord used it to draw me to himself.

I was just the silly, naive kid that thought my whole world revolved around Omaha, Nebraska and my family and my dad and things would always be the way they were and he died. I think I was, to use psychological terminology, in denial.

Changed everything. So the Lord used it radically in my life to unsettle me and cause me to ask big questions about life, death, eternity. So I think that�s really what God used to save me. I wish I could talk to my dad.

I wish I could go ride motorcycles with my dad. I wish I could go to his house today. All of those kinds of things. I miss him desperately. But God used that as a gift in my life, a tragedy for good. So I think maybe similarly in Mike�s life.

Maybe not exactly the same, but. Pat, do you remember when the Lutheran pastor came over to our house after dad died and then he said, �How would you like the funeral to be arranged And then he looked at me and he said, �Mike, here�s the Bible and what do you want me to say from the Bible about your dad during the funeral

I don�t know. I know the Bible a little bit. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I had no idea. So I just said, �Oh, I�m kind of in despair and in grief. Whatever you think is appropriate. But deep down I thought, I�m never going to be embarrassed again if someone says to me, �What�s in the Bible?

I�m going to know. So I even wanted to know as an unbeliever, �What�s in this book This is, I knew it was God�s Word. I didn�t really believe it all, but I wanted to know. And so similar to Pat, I thought the stability in our family is gone.

The rock is gone. The anchor is gone. The provider is gone. The 6 -4 -2 -40 Golden Gloves fighter gone from Korean War. He�s gone. Now what? So is there, I didn�t say it at the time, but the real question was, is there another Father?

Well, that leads to my second question. I just want to know, who decided to go to seminary first? Oh, that one�s easy.

Mike went to seminary. He would send me his notes all the time. I had no clue about anything. But I did almost graduate before him. So he started like three years before me. And then I came to seminary and then we graduated together.

But M starts before P. I thought about legally having my name changed. Just so, Andrew Abendroth couldn�t graduate first, but it didn�t work out. A funny seminary story is, one time Mike said, �Hey, did you get that hermeneutics paper done

This is like on a Monday and class is Tuesday. And I�m like, �What �Yeah, we have a hermeneutics paper due tomorrow for Dr. Roscoe. Oh, so all-nighter, stress, panic, all of this stuff. I think I wrote it on Matthew 13 in a parable and just complete stress basket, literal all-nighter.

I get to class the next day and Mike�s behind me and pokes me and goes, �Hey, sorry. Yeah, that was next week. It�s due the next week. So the brother that God gave me. He set you a week ahead, right?

Yeah. He cleared your schedule. What man intended for evil, God intended for good. Well I remember three years into seminary, Pat came out because I was working full-time, teaching the Bible regularly and going to school part-time.

And so I thought, I need to finish school at the same time. I can�t have my younger brother finish first. But I took a semester off because I thought, you know, my marriage isn�t the best and you can�t do everything in the world.

And I just thought, I just need to quit for a while, focus on Kim, and then I�ll go back into seminary. Because if you can�t run your own household, how can you want to be a pastor even? So I quit for a semester.

I remember writing the letter to Jim George in tears, thinking, basically I�m a sinner, right? I can�t manage all these things. And then I found out that Pat was going to graduate in �96, and I thought, better make sure our marriage gets better real fast.

I�ve got to graduate with Pat. Honey, I�m sorry, please forgive me, I�ll do better. So we graduated together. You had to step it up. I know. I have one more story about seminary that maybe I shouldn�t tell.

But Mike, before I went to seminary, when he first started, Mike was making a lot of money, successful in sales, like a lot of money from my perspective. And he�s like, �Hey, you know what? Come out. You�ve saved up money, and you�ve got all this going on, and I�ll give you money every month.

I don�t think it happened one time. So in part, we moved to California because my older brother was going to help fund it. I got zero. Well, I�m sorry, I�ll make it up.

This is nice. We can have family amends right here.

It wasn�t because he lied. It�s because downturn, change of jobs. Got laid off. Yeah. I remember what happened. I had a little book by Thomas Watson, the Puritan Banner of Truth book, and it was called All Things for Good, Romans 8 .28.

And it�s a classic book, and I wanted to read it, and I thought, you know, but the only problem is if I read it, I�m going to have to live it. So I put it back. You don�t read books on humility, wink, wink.

And I read the book, got laid off like the next week. Haley�s tiny. I had no job. I couldn�t support my younger brother. Pat, do you have any R .C. Sproul Ligonier stories? I don�t know. Maybe we shouldn�t tell the story.

It's too candid. You know what? Yeah, we better not tell that story. I�m still in counseling over it because of what God did through my big brother.

Man, I feel like I just stepped into an Oprah show. Okay. So, Pat, what�s something unique in Mike�s preaching that you really like, you really enjoy?

Clarity and Earnestness in Preaching

He�s clear, and clarity is underrated. And so I love that, and I love being able to go home and read the passage. Let�s say if I�m listening in person, read the passage and I can understand it better instead of being confused by it.

So I like that. I think a lot of preaching is confusing. So Mike is clear. I use this word for his 20-year anniversary. I don�t use it very often, but when I think of Mike in general, he�s earnest. And I like that word a lot because it has to do with legitimate, having integrity.

It�s not some kind of fake life that doesn�t match the preaching. And so earnest preaching, I appreciate. It�s from the heart, and it�s clear. And Mike? What do you like about your preaching? No, not your preaching.

Because that would be a dissection, right?

Yeah, that�s the worst, right, when you critique yourself. I could probably say many words, but it�ll sound funny at the beginning, and then I�ll clarify. Confident, right? And I don�t mean confident in self, but when I listen to Pat, I know he�s done the study.

We joke about who�s the smarter brother, but it�s really Pat. When you talk to him about issues and details and theological things, very, very insightful. And I know you�ve studied Pat, so when I listen, I think I can take it easy.

I don�t have to question everything. He�s confident, because your confidence isn�t in self, it�s I know the passage. I�ve devoted the time to study, and I know it, and I can understand the passage better.

So I think confident. Kind of you to say. I was scrambling last week to get ready for this conference, and someone in our office said, �You know what they told me in the corporate world, what do they say about fake it

Fake it till you make it. Fake it till you make it. And I said, �Well, the only problem for me is I can�t fake it. I�m not good enough at it. Thus, don�t bother me. I�m going to my office to beat my head against the wall and pray.

So put that on a poster, right? Don�t bother me. I�m going to my office.

Law Preaching, Gospel Preaching, and Active Obedience

All right. Okay. How do you define, Mike, how do you define the difference between law preaching and gospel preaching?

Well, law, as you all know, and the congregation is something from God. It�s good. It reflects his nature, his character. And we want to obey God as created beings. And so there�s nothing wrong with law.

Gospel is good news. It centers around the personal work of the Lord Jesus that the Father has sent. Excuse me. But law preaching in general really gives no good news. It�s just to-do list. It doesn�t give me a motivation to obey.

Oh, this is what the Lord has done for me. What�s that old Spurgeon quote? When I thought God was hard, it was difficult to obey. But when I found out how much he loved me, I wanted to just obey him and honor him.

So I think law-only preaching is you�re just getting whacked all the time. And as a Christian, you walk out thinking, I don�t even know if I�m saved or not. Law preaching is good if you end up then preaching the gospel as well.

So to be convicted is good. To hear God�s law is good. To be motivated to obey is good. But then afterwards, we�re not going to have those bruised reeds just broken off. They�re going to be encouraged.

And just like we don�t want to train up our children after you disobey, I love you, you ask for forgiveness, come alongside. So law-only preaching is never giving good news as I�m glad I�m not preaching today sin-bearing Lord Jesus or specifically Jesus�s active obedience as he obeys in my place.

So that�s what I would say law preaching is. It almost makes you think, the pastor�s mad at me, therefore God must be mad at me because I never measure up. And that�s not what we do in Christianity. It�s not transactional.

I have to try to measure up or else. We�re in Christ. We�re adopted. And therefore, be who you are. The Christian life is not, I have to be somebody I�m not because you can never be somebody you�re not.

Instead, the Christian life is, because of Christ, be who you are. Here�s who I am in Christ. Here�s what I�m able to do. I have the Spirit dwelling in me. And I�ll just try to be who I am in Christ, not strive to be somebody I never could be.

Thank you. Pat, let me ask you about the same principle, basically. But have you ever taken a gospel passage and turned it into law?

Is this some kind of confessional thing that we�re going to do? Okay, there�s a little screen between us and I have to tell him all the bad things I�ve done. And he�ll say, �I pardon you. Well, we just were at St. Patrick�s Cathedral a couple days ago.

Yeah, we did. And you�ve got those little things that you put your credit card in, 50 bucks, and you get something back. And I thought, �What do you get back? Nothing. Right, no receipts. I said, �No receipts, $50 indulgence, no receipts.

You�ll get it in purgatory. Oh, funny. I was at the Vatican one time, at the Vatican bookstore, and they sell indulgences there. And there�s a little calculator right there on the counter. And so I was just being silly, and I typed in �666� and showed my friend who was with me.

And then the lady came over and said, �Can I help you, gentlemen And I said, �No. Oh, anyway. Okay, so yeah, I think I have. So old sermons probably, oftentimes, maybe even from a gospel account.

And it�s something that Jesus has done that�s wonderful. And then you tell the people, �So you must do what Jesus does. I think that�s taking a gospel account and turning it into law. And the problem with that is, basically?

The problem with that is, if I were Jesus and my own Savior, it would be fine. So the classic example, I�ve probably even used it here before, when Jesus is tempted, too many preachers, self-confession, too many preachers turn it into, �Look, Jesus was tempted, and you�re going to be tempted, and Jesus quotes the Bible, and that�s how you overcome temptations, so you�d better know your Bible.

Secondary application, I would say, �That�s good to know. You should know your Bible, and when Satan tempts you, it�d be good to quote the Bible. Okay, great, but if that�s what it�s about, first and foremost, you�re not reading the Bible the way most Christians ever in the history of Christianity have read the Bible.

Jesus is the last Adam. He�s on earth as our representative, firstly, not as our example. And so we should read it and say, �Oh, this looks a lot like what happened in the garden the first time, and now we�re in the garden, and now we have a representative, and he�s tempted by Satan, so many things the same, and he�s victorious.

The point is, trust in him, it�s a gospel passage, not follow him or else. So there�s my sermon for today. Let�s close in prayer. Amen. Well, what�s that Beal book, �The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Text

Yeah, that�s good. So Psalm 119, �Hide God�s Word in your heart so that you might not sin against Him. It�s true, but that�s not the point. I�m not a good enough hider, but once I�m in Christ, now I want to do the right thing in spite of it.

Yeah. What did S. Lewis Johnson say when a man told him, �Jesus is only an example, and I take him as an example only, not as a substitute, penalty substitution, gory, bloody, awful stuff. I don�t want that.

He�s only my example. And Lewis said to him, �Well, how are you living up to his example He said, �Not so well, so now you need him as substitute as well. That�s good. In that sense, Jesus obeyed the law.

So Jesus� life preaches law to you. And so you should look at Jesus and say, �Woe is me, I�m undone, because He�s perfect and did everything perfectly. So, man, I�m so thankful that God is kind and merciful and gracious when it comes to preaching.

I remember being in preaching classes and thinking it�s always about, you know, it�s kind of like the �be� series, right? Be faithful, be joyful, be earnest, be it�s law, law, law, law, law, even though some of those things are good.

But I�m thinking, if I could just find the imperatives and preach the imperatives, because they�ll preach, but I didn�t understand indicative, imperative, gospel, law, anyway. It was right before our very eyes, too.

You look at Ephesians and you think, �Oh, chapters 1, 2, and 3, here�s who God is. Here�s who you are in Christ. Colossians 1 and 2, Hebrews 1 to 12, and then we see our response to God�s work. We graciously want to obey.

Antinomianism, the Law, and Grace

Okay. Number six, and I�ll give this to Pat. Are you now, or have you ever been, an antinomian?

See? Here we go with more of the confession kind of stuff.

Well, you know, first, if you would just define what antinomian is. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Thank you, man on the smaller seat. We actually have these stools in our kitchen, so I feel right at home. I feel like I should be eating Greek yogurt, oikos Greek yogurt and blueberries or something.

Okay, so antinomianism would be anti-law, anti-namas. An antinomian typically is somebody who doesn�t think you have to obey God�s law at all. So people who would, either theologically, they would say you�re not under any obligation to God�s law.

For example, moral law in the Old Testament. People who say that historically are antinomian. Or people who practically are antinomian, you can live however you want to live. So hey, I�m in by grace and now I can just sin it up.

Sort of like the question that�s anticipated in Romans 6. Paul expects people to ask, �Hey, can we be antinomian now The answer is no, but I�ve been an antinomian for sure as an unbeliever in my life.

Even if I didn�t know theological categories, I live as a law unto myself. But upon becoming a Christian, it�s like no, God requires things I don�t measure up. I have to trust in Christ, the perfectly obedient one.

Now I want to obey the law even though I don�t do it perfectly. God sees me as if I am perfect. So, never been an antinomian, even though today I might be. Here�s, let me put it this way, I want to be accused of being an antinomian.

Think about that. Why would I say that? As a Christian, I want you to be accused of being an antinomian. Sort of like your pastor is commonly accused of being an antinomian. Okay. Here�s why. Not because of your lifestyle.

Not because you lead a double life. But because you�re so clear on the doctrine of justification like the Apostle Paul is in Romans 1 -5. So clear that God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4. That people say, excuse me, I have a question, Romans 6, right, does this mean I can do whatever I want to do?

And the Apostle Paul says, by no means, and he explains why. But if you�re not being accused of being one, you might just be a neonomian, somebody who says it�s faith and works. So that�s going to be my little spiel for the day on that issue.

I probably am an antinomian every time I sin as a Christian, functionally, right? Oh, I�m acting like God�s law doesn�t matter. I think the big reveal for me was God�s law to an unbeliever, he requires perfect obedience.

But now what about the law to a believer? And now the law to the believer says to you, for your good, obey. For my glory, obey. But it doesn�t change our status, our condition. Remember, we ought not to think about God as less kind and gracious than our own fathers.

Fathers don�t say, if you sin one time and break my rule, you�re kicked out of the family forever. Maybe some have said that, but the Heavenly Father doesn�t. And so we have the law of God through the hands of Christ, and we want to obey out of gratitude, but not to keep our standing with God.

The text does say we�re under grace, not law. What does he mean? As a condemning instrument, we�re no longer under law to condemn us because Jesus has paid for that and earned righteousness for us. Elsewhere, we see God�s law, walk in a manner worthy, don�t complain.

Athlete language, farmer language, soldier language, work language, toil language, stay up late at night language, be alert language. And we do that because we know God wants us to, but not because we have to earn favor with him.

So I just want to be clear about the law from God is no longer from a judge. Our relationship has changed, and it�s from a Father who loves us.

What Evangelicals Need to Recover

Okay, good. All right, number seven, if you, Mike, could wave a wand and change one thing and one thing only in today�s evangelical churches, what would it be?

That would be the spirit of divination, and we�d have to kill him in the Old Testament.

There�ll be an execution after church. Good thing we�re not theonomists.

I thought I was going to be clever and say your seat height, but then Pat stole the thunder. It�s not funny anymore. One thing in evangelicalism, I mean, you know what I harp about these days, and if I get asked to go speak at a conference on whatever it is, end times, I end up talking about law, gospel, and sanctification, you know, whatever it is, because you end up talking about the Lord Jesus.

And I think probably my biggest complaint about evangelicalism is they, evangelicalism, believe that Jesus lived, died, was buried, raised, ascended, and will come back. But now that we got that over and believed in him, let�s get over to moralism and laws and other things.

I wish they�d talk about it�s Jesus not just to get into heaven, but Jesus to live a holy life. Right? He gives us his spirit, and the fruit of the spirit is love and joy. So Christ for pardon and Christ for power, I think that�s what�s lacking in the TED talk Christianity that you turn on.

It�s five ways, four methods, three steps, two special ways, and one, I don�t know, whatever. But that�s what we want, because as a congregation, you don�t do this, but many congregations, just tell me a few things to do and I�ll do them.

And now I can feel good about my Christianity because I did what I�m supposed to do. I had my quiet time, I did my prayer walk, I did this, that, and the other, and I want them to do that, but not, that�s just out of the flow of gratitude for what God has done.

It�s like I can get my Christianity out of the way by noon, right? Right, right. Now I can live the rest of my day in peace. And Pat, what would you do? What would you change, if you could just change one thing about evangelicalism?

I would agree with Mike, but if I�m going to take a different tact, maybe it�s going to be I would change people�s perspective on the righteousness of God. First of all, that they would understand what that even means, that God has a holy law and it is a requirement that you keep it personally, perfectly, and perpetually.

So no one gets to heaven without being perfect. I�m thinking of Romans 10, it�s one of my favorite passages, because the Jews Paul talks about didn�t understand the righteousness of God, so they didn�t understand that there�s no possible way.

Heart, soul, mind, and strength, and neighbor as yourself, loving God, never. So if we really understood righteousness and what it actually looks like from God, if we really understood God, what would happen is we would all say, woe is me, I�m undone, I can�t do it, this is awful, this is terrible, I�m depressed, and there�s no hope, and that would be awesome.

Because then you look outside of yourself to look to Romans 10, righteousness provided by a substitute who perfectly did it for me. But I don�t think people, they don�t understand. So they create their own righteousness, me and Jesus, and we can do it together as long as I�m faithful enough.

So Romans 10 is phenomenal to consider.

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life-transforming power of God�s Word through verse-by-verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at 6. We�re right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbcchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.