Making Whole Hearted Disciples — Zac Poonen

Let us bow in prayer. Our Father in Heaven, we believe it is your good pleasure to continue to bless us as you have done this day. We come to you in faith. We believe that we can experience the fullness of the blessing of the Gospel of Christ.

And we believe that you will open the heavens over us. O God, our Father, do it. Do it, Lord. Let your Spirit come down and minister to us as we seek you with thirsty and hungry hearts. Lord, give us a longing.

Create in the hearts of those who don't have a longing, or whose longings are faint and weak. Create in them a great hunger and thirst after you, Lord. Thank you, Father. In Jesus' name, Amen. To continue where we left off last session, we were seeing how great a desire God has to be able to boast about someone on earth to Satan.

The Lack of Reverence for God in Humanity

There are two verses that characterize the entire human race. As I have studied the scriptures, there are two verses that characterize the entire human race. I will show them to you. The first is in Romans chapter 3.

It says, after describing the sin of man in verses 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 and so on, it finally says, in verse 18 of Romans 3, there is no fear of God before their eyes. That means, remember the word fear is reverence.

There is no reverence, it's a very deep word for reverence, a reverence that brings a holy fear of God. Not that we are scared of Him, no, but a tremendous respect and reverence for God that is totally absent in the world.

And the other verse that describes the entire human race, and by the way, before I get there, it says one of the ways in which this lack of reverence is manifested, one of the ways is the way we use our tongue.

The way people on earth use their tongue shows that tremendous lack of reverence for God. Their throat, verse 13, is an open grave, that means it's all skeletons inside. With that tongue, they deceive others, that means we say things to give others a wrong impression about our spirituality or whatever it is, try to impress people that we are very spiritual, when we are not, that's deception.

And there's poison, you know the poison of a snake is inside its mouth, and the way it attacks people is, it puts out its tongue and hits people with its tongue and injects a little bit of poison, it kills people.

And that's the picture used here of the human race to show that human beings have no reverence for God. They are like snakes, and the snake is a picture of the devil. They use their tongue to spit out some poison, either to speak evil of somebody, or to hurt someone, or to get angry with someone.

These are all marks of a lack of reverence for God. Take the matter of anger, we would never be, you would never be angry publicly with your wife or husband, if you have another brother from the church sitting in your home.

If he's there, even if you have some anger, you'd control it. But once he's gone away and left the house, and only Jesus is there, then you let loose your anger. What does that prove? When that brother is there, you don't get angry with your wife, you speak nicely and respectfully to her.

But the moment the brother is gone and only Jesus is there, you speak rudely. It shows that you have more respect for a human being than you have for Jesus Christ. It shows that you fear the opinion of a human being much more than you fear the opinion of Christ.

Or, the other alternative is, Christ is not in your home at all. And I think that's the real thing. Even though you may have a verse, Christ is ahead of your home, it's all rubbish, He's not there. You don't want Him there.

You don't want Him in your home, because you won't be able to speak as you like over there. So, the poison of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. You know, finding fault, complaining, grumbling.

And what does all this prove? The way human beings use their tongue proves they have no reverence for God. One of the first things that happens when a man really begins to reverence God, he holds back his tongue.

It begins with wanting to say something, and asking God for grace, and controlling it. And when God sees that you're serious about it, here's the good news, a day will come when you will not even want to say it, because the Lord would have cleansed you on the inside.

When divine nature would have taken over, and you don't have to restrain it. You know, so that the path towards victory over sin goes through, sort of, a couple of stages. In the first stage, you're sort of, in a sense, under law, where you're holding it back, though you want very much to say something, it's good.

It's better to be under the old covenant than to be under no covenant. When you're under no covenant, you just do what you like. But when you're under the old covenant, you hold something back. But the good news is there's something even better, which is the new covenant, where divine nature takes over.

Seeking God's Interests Rather Than Our Own

It's in many areas it's like this. For example, we start off with wanting to hate people, then we come to the place where we read God's word and we say, I can't hate him, and with a great struggle we love a person.

And then you come to the place where you cannot hate a person, no matter what he does. Then you know divine nature has taken over that area. Very few believers come into that place because they're not serious.

There's no reverence for God in their life. They fear man, that means they care for man's opinion so much that they're only concerned that other people in the church, other brothers and sisters must have a good opinion about me.

They must think that my wife and I are very peaceful and happy. Now I'm not saying that you should fight publicly, all I'm saying is develop a reverence for God, a respect for his opinion, just like you have a respect for the opinion of other human beings.

So there's no fear of God before their eyes. It's proved in the way we use our tongue. And the other area is what I would show you in Philippians 3. Another characteristic of the entire human race is Philippians 3.

Now what I'm saying about the lack of fear of God is universal. You go to any religion, the world is full of religious hypocrites in every religion. They're trying to put up a front of being very pious and concerned about God and all, but deep down there's no reverence in their secret life.

The other is in Philippians 2, where it says in verse 21, they all seek after their own interests. That's another phrase that describes the entire human race. Everybody is seeking after what is good for me, what's good for me and my family.

You go to any businessman here in town or any country in the world, he's thinking of what's good for me and my family. You go to any politician, he's thinking of what's good for me and my family. You go to a poor family here, they're looking at what's good for me and my family.

It's all their interests. And when they move their location from one place to another, what are they thinking of? If I go there, that's good for me and my family. Or if I go there, it's not good for me and my family, so I'll move here.

No, you can't blame them. That is the poison of self-seeking that the devil injected into Adam and Eve has come down, we have inherited it. Now, what is real conversion? What is real being born again and filled with the Holy Spirit?

I've looked at it like this. You know, today there are people who speak about generational curses. A lot of charismatic, some outstanding charismatic teachers who teach a lot of good things, but along with that good things, there's rubbish called generational curse.

That means your great-grandfather did some witchcraft to worship idols and so you're going to have it. Well, I'll tell you how that's a lot of rubbish. You're going to have it if you're not born again, sure.

What happens when I'm really born again? I was born into a tree called Adam through my parents. Physically, I was born into that tree called Adam and I had a whole lot of generational curses in me. I don't know what all my ancestors did.

But I'm in that tree. And you trace that tree down to grandfather, great-grandfather and all the way down, probably they did some terrible things. But one day the Holy Spirit, when I decided to quit that tree, cut me off and grafted me into another tree called Jesus Christ.

You know, He said, I'm the vine and you're the branches. If you were in India, He'd have probably said, I'm the mango tree and you're the branches. You know, because vines are very common there. And I'm now in this tree.

What generational curse have I got here? It's only blessing, blessing, blessing, blessing all the way. So if a person has got a generational curse, I say, brother, you're still in the wrong tree. You're in Adam.

But you say, I accepted Christ. Yeah, you said these magic words, Lord Jesus come into my heart, but you never got out of that tree. You kept seeking your own interests. That proves that you were not really converted and filled with the Holy Spirit.

Something happens when you get into this tree. When I was in that tree, I got the sap of that tree. Oh, I got plenty of it. No reverence for God. Seek after your own interests. Seek after your own interests.

Only think of yourself. And one day the Holy Spirit cut me off and put me into Christ and filled me with the Holy Spirit. And then I get the sap of this tree, which brings a tremendous reverence for God and a seeking after the interests of Christ.

So that when I think of moving from one location to another, I don't think how it will help me and my family, but I think how will it help the kingdom of God and Jesus Christ. Not whether I can make more money by going there, but whether I can further the kingdom of God by going there.

Wholehearted Discipleship Versus Religious Experience

Now you say, I met very few believers like that. You're absolutely right. So have I. There are very few who are really wholehearted. Most people have got a religion that's just enough to take them to heaven.

They're not really interested in a radical conversion. They'd like to have experiences. They'd like to speak in tongues. They'd like to imagine that they're filled with the Holy Spirit. They'd like to come to meetings where they think of a burning fire and all that type of stuff.

They're not willing to pay the price. And a preacher who is interested in numbers will never tell them the price. He'll never tell them what is their real condition. He will just keep them happy with their irreverence and their continuing to seek.

And you know what he'll do to make them think that they're very spiritual? Let's have prayer meetings. Prayer. Oh, people like to be known as men of prayer. Isn't that a great reputation to have? So-and-so is a man of prayer.

People ask me, Brother Zach, how many hours do you pray? I say, you want me to disobey the Word of God? Word of God says you shouldn't tell anybody about whether you pray or fast or give. You're teaching me to disobey God's Word?

I won't disobey God's Word even if you pray to force me to do it. But, you know, there is a great lust I find particularly in evangelical circles to be known as men of prayer. Men who fast. Men who give.

The three things that Jesus said nobody must ever know about in your life. I see a lot of people like to be known as men who fast, men who pray, men who give. I'm a generous man. It's utter disobedience to God's Word in Matthew chapter 6 because they have no fear of God.

People must see your character. Your Heavenly Father will reward you openly when you do these things in secret. For the people must not know what you do in secret. And so preachers say let's pray and everybody thinks they're very spiritual because they come for a lot of prayer meetings.

They pray and they pray all night and give to missions, give for evangelism and in evangelism they feel, ah, I'm supporting the Lord's Word. But if you're seeking your own interest, there's no change in your life.

If you don't have a reverence for God that makes you tremble at His Word, there's no difference between you and the children of Adam. So, this burning fire that God wants to put into us is something that's slowly going to burn up.

I mean it doesn't happen overnight. We don't teach the eradication of the flesh such that there's no more seeking of our own. I mean I've tried to walk this way as I've understood it for over 30 years, I'll tell you.

But I'm the first person to say I am absolutely convinced that I'm seeking my own unconsciously in areas that I still haven't got light on. I believe unconsciously despite all the cleansing of myself from the love of money, there is still unconsciously love of money in me.

Because I say that, I'm going to discover it and get rid of it. If I say, no, no, no, I'm not seeking my own anymore it's like occupying 1 of the land of Canaan and saying, I got it. No, brother, you haven't got it.

There's a 99 of Canaan seeking your own love of money, impurity, which is still there to be conquered. Acknowledge it and go little by little and conquer the whole land. I want to conquer as much of the land of Canaan as possible before I leave this earth.

Or another illustration I use is seeking our own love of money, pride, selfishness. These are like huge onions. I peel off one skin where God shows me, there you are seeking your own. Many times the Lord has told me, there you are seeking your own.

Oh Lord, I repent of it and I peel off one layer of the onion. You think I finished with the onion? No. In another situation, the Lord will test me to see whether I'm honest. It's easy to see whether other people are selfish and seeking their own.

It's very difficult to see whether you yourself are seeking your own. I say, Lord, I'm sorry. Show me, show me. I remember once in my life where I was down in bed with a fever and I always have the habit when I have the smallest sickness that knocks me down.

I say, Lord, what are you trying to say to me? Yesterday I hurt my little elbow a little bit. Not much. It's almost okay now. But, I said, Lord, what are you trying to tell me through this? Sometimes it may be a very simple thing like you were climbing up the stairs too fast.

Remember you're 70 years old. Slow down a bit. I say, okay Lord, thank you very much. He's very practical. It may have nothing to do with sin but God doesn't want me to die on running up the stairs so he says just slow down.

So, God's a very loving Father but sometimes I've known times when I was lying on a bed and I said, Lord, why this fever? And the Lord shows me something that happened in the previous week. One little unkind word or one little act of selfishness and the Lord says, you were seeking your own there.

You know, I'll tell you, I wept. I wept and said, Lord, thank you for the tremendous care you have over me that even a small little thing which other people would even ignore and say, there's nothing to that.

You show me because you're determined before you come to this earth again to get rid of all selfishness from my life and I tell you, I was like you. Saturated with selfishness from the race of Adam. Saturated with the love of money.

Saturated with impurity. Saturated with irreverence for God. But the good news is the onion is becoming thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner and I have a goal. I have a goal to get rid of this onion completely.

I don't know whether I'll reach it before Jesus comes but I'm pressing on. When I say I'm pressing on the upward way, I mean it every bit. And God is my witness that every day in my life I find something to repent of.

Every single day. Some little twig that's not burning. I say that's got to burn too Lord. I want a bush that's burning completely. Where if you could shine a torch into every area of my heart you would see that I'm not seeking my own anywhere.

Not just appearing to seek the interests of Christ on the outside. Who cares for your opinion? I'm sorry to, I'm not insulting you but I'm just saying I don't care for your opinion because it doesn't matter and I hope you don't care for mine.

But we do care for what the Lord thinks about us. Because ultimately he's going to sit on the throne. And he's placed us on earth in order to sanctify us entirely. What did we read this morning in 1 Thessalonians 5?

Did you read that slowly? Read the Bible slowly. May the God of peace 1 Thessalonians 5, 23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely. Entirely. It doesn't happen in a moment. That's the mistake that these entire sanctification people I think their desire was sincere but their theology was wrong.

Because some of them said they went through an experience where they got entirely sanctified and the flesh was burnt up and when they sin after that they don't call it a sin. They say that's a mistake.

Well the tragedy is that the blood of Christ does not cleanse mistakes. It cleanses sin. So until you call it a sin it won't be cleansed. So these guys live with sin which they can't call a sin because 5 years ago they said they were entirely sanctified.

Don't get into that rut. Be honest. But God's will is that we must be sanctified entirely my entire spirit entire soul and entire body to be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Reverence Expressed Through Holiness and Respect

Now I want to ask you dear brothers if you just take that one verse and meditate on it for the next whole of 2010 you'll be a different person at the end of the year. My entire spirit my entire personality my emotions my mind my will my body also even my physical health.

God wants to preserve me blameless that I don't sin with my body I don't sin with my soul I don't sin with my spirit. He wants to sanctify me entirely and I say Lord however long it takes do it. That means He wants to separate me entirely from these two characteristics of the race of Adam.

He wants to separate me from all irreverence. That means I have such a tremendous respect for God that I recognize He is with me all the time. I cannot speak one rude word. I cannot sign a false statement even if it's only one small little lie there sorry I can't sign it.

I can't say it because it's a reverence for God and the marks of some of the marks of reverence for God in the Old Testament we read the Lord told the people of Israel in Leviticus chapter 19 whenever you see an older gray haired person stand up respect him.

Thus you will prove that you reverence me says God. I've taken that seriously and because I took that seriously that I always would respect people who were older than me. If I disagreed with them I would disagree with them respectfully.

I would I would never call them by their first name or last name. I would always preface it by saying brother so and so as a mark of respect for age. I've always done that and I want to say it's gone well with me.

It always goes well with you when you obey God and respect His word. I find such a tremendous irreverence in today's Christians especially among young people. No respect for older people. It goes badly with them.

But God led me on from there to something higher there in the Old Testament I was told in Leviticus 19 it's somewhere 25 or 30 or something which says show your reverence for me by standing up before a gray haired person and respecting him.

And I came to the that is old covenant. When I came to the new covenant I found in 1 Peter chapter 2 that the new covenant standard is higher. There it was honor the old man and show your respect for God here 1 Peter 2 17 says honor all human beings and show your respect for God.

This is great. Everything that was only partial in the old covenant has become total in the new covenant they could be sanctified partially in the old covenant. Now we can be sanctified entirely. They could make one day in seven holy the Saturday.

Now we can have all seven days holy. They could give 10 of their income to God and say ok God you got your income tax. I got 90 for myself. But in the new testament we can give everything. Say Lord it's all yours.

And in the old testament you'd respect the older people. In the new testament you respect everybody. Isn't that wonderful. I love that in the old testament you could find God only in Jerusalem. Now I can find him everywhere.

You want to find God everywhere but you don't want to respect every human being. You're seeking your own learn. I tell you I have been so tremendously blessed since I've learned to speak respectfully to human beings and I'm not saying I've never slipped up.

I have slipped up at times but then I would have deep times of repentance before God. I'm trying my best to get rid of this onion where we don't respect one another. I want to be found always speaking respectfully to my wife.

I want to be found always speaking respectfully to my children. I want to be found always speaking respectfully to my children's wives. I want to be found always speaking respectfully to small children in the church they are part of human beings.

I am in the new covenant. So reverence for God is manifested in these little things and that's how the bush comes on fire when God, you know, God tests us in little situations to see whether I want what his word says, do I really want him to be first in my life?

Radical Repentance After Hearing Strong Preaching

For example, you know when Jesus saw a great multitude, I always think of this verse whenever I see a crowd, I mean we have a big crowd here, it's great, it's wonderful that so many people come to hear such a strong message, but it doesn't excite me.

You know why? I'll tell you why it doesn't excite me. I'm never excited. In Tamil Nadu sometimes we have what, 2 ,000 people, public meetings 3 ,000 people, in Karnataka we have 3 -4 ,000 people, I'm not excited that people have come to listen to a strong word because I'll show you a verse.

It says in Mark's gospel chapter 6 that Herod, that wicked evil king Herod used to enjoy listening to John the Baptist. Have you read that verse? It's one of the most amazing verses. That Herod used to enjoy listening to John the Baptist.

Why was that? Because he was a fiery preacher, not like these boring Pharisees who had nothing to say. But do you think it changed Herod's life? No. He would enjoy listening to John the Baptist and then a couple of verses you read later, verse 22, Salome the daughter of Herodias came and danced in her half naked clothes and he enjoyed that too.

He was an amazing man. He could enjoy listening to the fiery John the Baptist and in the evening go and watch a television where there's some half naked woman dancing. He would enjoy both equally just like some believers today.

It doesn't make a difference to them. They enjoy listening to a powerful preacher. Remember that all your life my brothers and sisters. Just because you enjoy listening to a fiery preacher does not make you one bit different from King Herod.

Not one bit different. Does it bring in you a fear of God? Does it bring in you the repentance that John the Baptist asked for? If not, do you find that you can enjoy a wonderful conference like this and then go and watch a movie which has got, you say, only 5 seconds of some dirty sex scene?

5 seconds? It's like saying, there's a little bit of poison only in this glass of milk. 99 .9 is milk. There's only 0 .1 poison. How many of you would be honest and say, yes, I've been like King Herod.

I've enjoyed listening to a powerful message and a few days later I'm watching a little bit of a dirty movie or some filthy scene somewhere. You know what you need brothers and sisters? A radical repentance.

A radical turning around. A reverence for God. So when there was this big crowd that followed Jesus, we read in Luke 14, amazing words in Luke 14. Luke 14 he said, in verse 25 we read, large crowds were going along with him.

Counting the Cost of Following Jesus

I wonder what a preacher today would say when a large crowd comes to his church. I'd like to meet a preacher today who gets a large crowd coming to his church and who turns around and tells them exactly what Jesus said.

If you fellas don't hate your father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and your own life, verse 26, you cannot be a disciple of Jesus. What does that mean? It means that Jesus is more important to me than my father and my mother and my wife and my children and my brothers and sisters.

I'm not going to do anything to please my children if it's going to displease the Lord. Let my children get offended with me. I will not offend the Lord. Do that my brother. Take that attitude and your children will all be disciples of Jesus one day.

But you pamper them and don't want to offend them. No wonder they're going astray and gone into the world. You didn't love Jesus enough. You loved your children more than Jesus. You pampered your wife instead of saying, Lord, you're first in my life.

I'm not going to please my wife. I'm not going to fight with her, but I'm not going to spend my life pleasing her. I want to please the Lord. I'm not going to wash the tears of my mother and change my plans about what the Lord wants me to do.

Put the Lord first above your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, children, and you'll be a disciple. You know the trouble with a lot of Christians today, Christian ministries and Christian leaders is the popular thing to do is evangelism.

Let's collect more bushes. Never mind whether they're on fire or not. Let's get more bushes, bushes, bushes, bushes. Brother, I'd rather have one bush on fire than a thousand bushes in my congregation.

Sure. What's the use of that? God wants a bush on fire so we can go out. It is true. The Bible says, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. I believe in that with all my heart.

I do not believe it's the calling of every Christian to go into all the world. Nobody can go into all the world. We're all called to be witnesses for Christ. Every believer must be a witness for Christ, but every believer is not an evangelist.

Evangelism Must Lead to Disciple-Making

God has made some people evangelists. Just like you cannot try and teach the Bible like me unless God gives you the gift. I cannot be an evangelist like somebody else unless God gives me the gift and the burden.

The burden God gives you in your heart is the will of God for your life. So here is this evangelist who goes out doing a very good work, reaching out and preaching the gospel to those who've never heard it.

I appreciate them. I respect them. I get a number of missionary magazines in my home regularly. I'm interested in what my brothers and sisters are doing in North India and other parts of the world and etc.

But then the same Jesus said, when you go out into these nations, make disciples. That's the part that's been left out. Then they will become like a burning bush. Otherwise they'll be just bushes with one or two twigs on fire.

And if you're happy with collecting bushes with one or two twigs on fire, then you'll have a third rate, good for nothing, useless church that is not a testimony to Christ. And that's the condition of most churches in India and most churches that I've seen in other countries too.

Because we want to collect twigs, we want to collect bushes, whether they're on fire or not, it doesn't matter. And you'll never be on fire till you become a disciple. Till you say, Lord Jesus, whom am I on earth but you.

I'm not here to please my father or mother or brother or sister or children or whatever they say. I want to please you and you'll find that they come along. I remember when I was very young, my father sent me to the military academy to go and become the top admiral of the Navy.

And one day, just about five years after I got my commission in the Navy, the Lord told me to quit. And serve Him. Did I ask my father or mother who had an ambition for me? No, sir. I put in my resignation letter and sent a letter to my dad saying, dad, no admiral.

I resigned. And then he said, okay, if you're serving the Lord, I'm happy because he was a believer. Then I started serving the Lord and for eight, nine years I traveled around like that, gradually becoming more and more famous as a preacher, traveling here, this country, that country, radio program, books and all that.

And one day the Lord said, what are you building? He was just like a visiting consultant, going around preaching, build my body. I said, okay, how can I do it? And God forced me into circumstances where I was thrown out of some church and started meeting with seven or eight people in my house.

I could have quit that. I could have continued my worldwide travels and all that. But the Lord said to me, this is what you want. Then my father came to me again and said, okay, you quit the Navy so that you want to preach the gospel.

But what a fantastic gift you have of preaching. You can be like Billy Graham instead of sitting with these seven or eight people in your house and nobody knows you just working with people. I wish my dad were alive today to see what God has done.

It was a day of small beginnings. He's in heaven today and if they can see from there, I don't know, then he would see and rejoice. But what I'm trying to say is, if I had tried to please my father, I would not be doing what I'm doing today.

And some of you who are concerned to please your parents when God's telling you to do something else, concerned to please your wife, or you want to keep your children happy, you'll never. God sees that you put your children above the Lord.

That's what happened to Eli. Eli put his children above the Lord. He honored. God said, you honor your children more than me. It's never going to go well with you. And that was the end of Eli and his whole tribe finished.

Spiritual Nurture Beyond Conversion

You know what was the result of my mother was from a Orthodox Syrian church, which is pretty close to the Roman Catholic Church. And one day she came to me when she was 75 years old and said, I want to be baptized.

And I baptized her. You honor God, your parents will follow in the way you're going to follow Jesus, your children will follow. But if you try to please those other people, you lose everything. So I've seen that in many cases.

I've seen people who tried to please somebody. It never goes well with them. If you want the bush to be on fire, if you want to be a witness for Christ, the Lord says you got to be a disciple. It's not enough to go and preach the gospel to every creature.

Praise God for those who are doing that. But get that person and make him a disciple. Otherwise the job is not complete. Otherwise, it's exactly like, you know, bringing people to Christ is like giving birth to spiritual babies.

What would you think of a mother who gives birth to a baby and throws them on the road like these pups and cats throw their kittens away and then gives birth to another baby and throws it on the road?

What type of mother is that? I say you're not fit to be a mother. You know, it takes 20 years at least to bring up a child to be able to stand on its own legs in India, perhaps 25 years at least. What are you going to do?

Just have a baby and throw it on the street? You've got to make that person into a man, into a woman. We understand that in our physical homes. How many of you would throw your babies out into the street as soon as they're born?

What a lot of labor you have to work with those babies till they grow up to manhood and to be able to stand on their own legs. God is looking for men. That's what one of our burdens in this conference is that there'll be a younger generation.

A younger generation who will take the torch from the older generation and say, or the baton from the older generation and say, we're going to continue to run this race. We want to be available to God to be able to build a church that glorifies His name.

Not just a bunch of people who like to sing good songs on Sunday morning and listen to a good message and go home. And then five years later or 10 years later, you suddenly discover this great preacher was living in adultery or homosexuality or something like that.

And you know what surprises me in such cases? What surprises me in such cases is not that this guy fell. What surprises me is how these 5000 people in this church never even knew about it. What type of person?