Church Live Re-Visited: Session Four - Part 1 — Ron Bailey

OK, we'll have a word of prayer and then we'll make a start. Father, we want to come again to you, Lord, just acknowledging our need of you, our conscious need. We need your help, Lord. We need your enlightenment.

We need the work of your Spirit in all of our hearts, Lord, to speak and to hear what you want to say to us tonight. We pray, Lord, that you will open our eyes and open our understanding to understand the things that are on your heart for us tonight.

Make this time a time of blessing and challenge and purpose, Lord, for each one of us and for us as a church. Amen. Amen. Amen. OK, the chapters that we are going to read to you again are 1 Corinthians chapter 3 and chapter 4, but I'm not actually going to refer to them very much.

It's just that when I mentioned these things last time we were together, there were a couple of questions that came up, which the more I thought about them, the more I thought were really such fundamental questions that we ought to give a bit more time.

So depending on which picture you like, we're going to drill down a little bit more deeply or spread out a little bit more widely. This is a little bit like an appendix. If you're reading a book sometimes and there's something that's of more detail, they may say, well, look in the appendix.

And this is a little bit like that. We're going to look at the question really of judgment and our work for God and the reward that comes as a result of that. So those are the things I want to look at.

We did touch on them last time, but I want to go down a little bit deeper. And in fact, as I've been reading 1 Corinthians again this week, I was just amazed at how frequently the ideas of judgment come all the way through this book.

One of the questions that I was asked, not in this language, but I guess this was always the verse behind the question. The Lord Jesus, of course, on one occasion said, don't judge lest you be judged.

But in 1 Corinthians, we're being told that there is a kind of judgment that's necessary, that there is judgment. And really what I want to do is try and look at that question. How do we understand these things when you've got what seems like a plain commandment, which is a don't judge.

And then some other things which indicate that, for example, much of the trouble that the Corinthians were experiencing was actually because they weren't judging. They weren't actually assessing, they weren't appraising, they weren't examining what was happening.

Consequently, they were making all kinds of wrong, they were having wrong concepts which were resulting in wrong ways of living. So I want to look at these things. Just to give you a bit of an example, I won't go through all these because there's lots of them.

I counted about, I think it was 38 verses where there's some reference to judging or judgment in one way or another in this letter. And in fact there are more than that. Because if you think about it, every time you have a comparison, any time anything which says it's better or worse or less, or in fact, in a sense, every time you add an adjective to anything, you are automatically judging that thing.

And if I say this is a bright red jersey, I've kind of added two things to it and I've actually judged something. I've actually thought, well, yeah, this could have been a not such a red jersey, this could have been a green jersey.

What I've done is I've appraised something. Now we do this automatically, this is how God has created us. And we can't pretend that we don't do this. Every time you see anything or anybody, it makes an impression on you.

And that impression then becomes a kind of a benchmark. And then from that position it either gets better or worse, depending on the new experiences that you have. You know, it's like this old saying, you really only get one chance to make a first impression.

Because as soon as you see somebody, you react, you have some idea of what this person is like. And then subsequently, that person will either prove to be better than you thought they were, or not as good as you thought they were.

In other words, you will be pleasantly surprised or disappointed. And then we do this automatically all the time. And you can't switch this off. So when it says don't judge, we need to have a look at that and see exactly what's behind it.

Let me just show you one or two of these examples. This is 1 Corinthians chapter 1 and verse 10. Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment.

So right at the very beginning you've got this reference to judgment or a way of thinking that you are to examine and compare to see if it's like somebody else's. That's the idea of it. And there's a whole list of these as you go through.

In 1 Corinthians chapter 2 and verse 14 and 15, you've got these verses that we referred to last time. And this is kind of one of mine. I was saying that you get one impression and then everything beyond that is either better than you thought it would be or worse than you thought it would be.

And this is my constant experience with new versions of the Bible. I've got most versions of the Bible, I think, that are in English. And every time I get one, I find something about it that's really good and I like it.

I think, oh yeah, this is really good. And then I read a little bit more and then I find something which disappoints me. And then I get to the stage where I'm carrying two Bibles, that one and the other one, to compare it.

And in the end I just kind of abandon it and go back to my old King James Version. And the King James Version isn't much better at this particular point. But it's interesting and I don't know why they haven't bothered to change it.

This is 1 Corinthians chapter 2 and verse 14 and 15 where it says this. If you remember, the last time we were together, I used the word appraise here. And we can use the word discern if you like, verse 14.

But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to them. Nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things.

Yet he himself is discerned by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord that we may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. Those words discern, it's all the same word in the original. What it's saying here then is that the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God because you can only perceive these things, you can only measure these things.

You can only appraise, compare these things spiritually. And Paul actually speaks about combining spiritual things with spiritual. Then in verse 15 he says, but he who is spiritual discerns, judges, appraises, measures, values all things.

Yet he himself is measured, valued, I'm standing by the Amplified version on that, by nobody. And this is all the way through 1 Corinthians, constant references to different kinds of judgment. It includes words like account, approve, decree, determine, differ, discern, examine, judge, judgment, law, question, thought, try.

There's a whole series of them and they all have to do with assessing something mentally. We're looking at something and saying now what is this? Is this this? Is this that? Is it better? Is it worse?

This kind of thing. These are some of the things that the Corinthians weren't judging and the consequence was that they were in part of the pickle that they were in. For example in 1 Corinthians 5 they weren't judging a man who was in a relationship of fornication.

They weren't judging that and the church wasn't judging that. They weren't judging their brethren when they had legal issues between one another. In fact they weren't judging them, what they were doing was that they were going outside to external judges.

And Paul actually accuses them, he rebukes them for not bringing this judgment inside the church, handling it on the inside. There's references to this theme which we'll get to ultimately about head covering and head uncovering where Paul at one point says judge for yourselves.

Is it comely? Is it fit that this and this and this? So there's a constant repetition of things where he's actually saying you should be judged. And of course one of the big important ones is in 1 Corinthians 11 where he says that part of the reason that they are in the state that they're in, part of the reason that there is sickness amongst them, part of the reason that people are dying in their midst is actually because they're not discerning the Lord's body.

They're not measuring, they're not recognising, they're not seeing what all this is about. Okay, well wrong judgments result in wrong living, so how are we going to handle that? There are three words that I think will help us along this line.

And really it's the question of right use, abuse and non-use. And our critical faculties, our ability to measure things and to decide whether it's good or better, lighter or darker, there's a right way of doing that, there's a wrong way of doing that.

But when you have the wrong way of doing it, it's going to get a bit complicated now, but if you're doing something wrongly, the remedy for wrong use is not non-use, it's right use. I'll say that again.

If something is being done wrongly, the remedy for wrong use is not non-use, it's right use. Now there are some people, there are some people in churches in different parts of the world who look at what happens concerning things to do with the gifts of the Spirit, and they see that it is so chaotic, it's such a mess, that what they've decided is that the best way of handling this is to ban it.

That's to say, they see misuse and their remedy is non-use. That's never the Bible answer. The answer is never when you're misusing something to resolve it by saying, we won't use it. Do you remember when the Lord Jesus used this illustration?

He used this phrase in Matthew chapter 5 verse 30, where it says this, if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish than that your whole body be cast into hell.

Now God doesn't want people without right hands, does he? He wants people with the right hands that are doing right things. So the ultimate answer in this strong statement, we'll see how this fits in later on, I think, with kind of the dangers, but the right thing is to use things properly.

There's a little phrase of that where you've got things like this. If you look at 1 Corinthians chapter 7 verse 31, chapter 7 verse 31, he's talking about buying things, but they're not sort of having the sense of owning them or possessing them.

And in verse 31 he says, for those and those who use this world as not misusing it, for the form of this world is passing away. This is a challenge. Apparently we are to use the world. We are to use the world.

Now some people say, no, you mustn't use it. You must not use it. You must avoid it. You must have nothing at all to do with it. But Paul actually isn't the only place here. If you remember a little bit earlier on in chapter 3, the end of chapter 3, he says this in verse 21, therefore let no one glory in men, for all things are yours, whether poor, or a parse, or a kefas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come, all are yours, but you must go on to the next sentence.

And this is what makes the whole difference. And you are Christ's. That's what changes everything. So we are to use things, and we are to use them properly with a consciousness that although we have rights, we have to use those rights in a certain way so that Jesus always maintains his rights, and that we surrender our rights to him.

So we'll see how that kind of works out in a little bit. So I'm going to look first of all at this whole question of judgment. Let's look first of all at the whole thing about God's judgment. Isaiah chapter 30, this is the passage where Isaiah is telling the people of Israel that God's plan for them was to depend upon him, and not to rely on other foreign countries, particularly Egypt.

And this is what you get, chapter 30 and verse 18. He's actually told them to rest. Verse 18 says this, Therefore the Lord will wait that he may be gracious to you, and therefore he will be exalted that he may have mercy on you.

For the Lord is a God of, now the King James Version will say judgment, and this here says justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him. God is a God of judgment. It's one of God's titles. It's one of the ways in which God has revealed himself to the world.

That he is the God of judgment. He is not a God who ignores things. He's not a God who says, well it doesn't matter too much what you least said, soonest mended. God is a God of judgment. This works out particularly with the people of Israel.

And God actually said to them in Amos, if you remember, this is a key verse in Amos, and God says to them, Amos 3, chapter 3 and verse 3, he says, You own me have I known of all the people of the earth, therefore I will judge you for all your sins.

So God would actually hold them accountable for what they had known because they had revelation. We'll see how that works out in a little while then. Therefore the Lord will wait that he may be gracious to you.

That's a lovely phrase. Sometimes, if you know the background of this, what God was going to allow to happen, he was actually going to allow actively, not passively. He was going to allow actively a train of events which would result in the punishment of Israel.

And it was an act of God's grace to them. Sometimes God allows us to live out the consequences of the choices we make. And it's not punishment in the sense that this is God who has lost his patience with us.

It's part of God's grace. There are some things that we only will ever learn if God lets us face up to the implications of the choices that we make. It's part of God's grace sometimes that judgments work in our lives and things happen like this.

So this is kind of an absolute statement of fact that God will judge the world. If you look at Romans chapter 3 verse 6, in math they have things that they call axioms. And axioms are absolute statements of facts.

There's no argument about it. Everybody accepts it, so that's all that is to it. And there are some kind of Bible axioms as well. There's absolutely no argument about it. Everybody accepts it. It doesn't explain it.

It's beyond explanation. It's just a simple fact of life. And here in Romans chapter 3 and verse 6, where he's explaining certain things, I'll read from verse 5. In other words, it's an absolute spiritual fact of life that God will judge the world.

God is a judge and he will judge. Maybe you remember that this is one of the things that Paul actually said in Acts chapter 17. Again, this is a fundamental fact of life. Acts 17 verse 31. He hasn't rebuked the Athenians for many things.

He's said very little, but this is something which is to be known by every people upon the face of the whole earth. In it is Acts chapter 17 verse 31. I'll read verse 30. So, this is a fact of life. God is going to judge the world.

And then it makes it clear that it's going to be through Christ who will judge the world. Now, we sometimes say, we often say, I've said this, and lots of preachers will say this, and people out in the open air will say this, that when Jesus was upon the earth, he wasn't here as the judge.

He was here as the saviour, and that one day he would become the judge. Now, there's a truth in that. There is a truth, and there's a very famous passage that you'll know of. If you look at John chapter 12.

Often with these things, we're not kind of arguing with truth. It's just that we need the whole truth. We need more truth. We need more information to get the balance right. So, this is John chapter 12 and verse 47.

Now, that's a statement of fact. He did not come to judge the world. But if you look at John chapter 5 and verse 30, you'll see he says this. And in that verse, this is really a pivotal verse. Because this is what makes judgment right or wrong.

Why we are doing the judging. If we are doing the judging to put ourselves in the right, if we are doing the judging to put somebody else in the wrong, so it was a winner and the loser, if we are doing the judging so that it makes me greater and him less, then that is not permissible, that kind of judging.

But if the judging that's taking place is in order that the will of God should be done, if it's a result of revelation in this sense, you see here where the Lord Jesus says, I cannot my own self do nothing, as I hear, I judge.

And he isn't talking about the evidence of his ears. And he isn't talking about the evidence of his eyes. He's talking about the evidence of his spirit. There's a verse in Isaiah, I ought to have looked it up, I can't tell you where it is, but it's around about 40 or something like that, where it speaks of the Lord in this famous phrase where Isaiah asks the question, and he says, who is as blind as my servant or as deaf as my servant?

And it's a strange kind of a statement because he's speaking about Christ. There was a sense in which Christ could be, and we need to choose to be at times, blind and deaf, in order to listen to what God is saying in our hearts.

We do this actually all the time. We do this whenever we believe God rather than believing the evidence of our senses. If we pray for someone and we believe, if God gives us that faith, we believe that person is healed.

But we trust God in contrast to relying upon the evidence that comes from our senses. We say, well, I have greater evidence of greater impact, of greater importance, of greater significance. This is almost the definition of faith in Romans chapter 4, if you remember, with the story of Abraham.

This is Romans chapter 4, verse 19. He talks about Abraham and he says, being not weak in faith, he did not consider his own body already dead, since he was about 100 years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb.

Now this is evidence, this is genuine data. He is dead, his body will no longer function as a man's body needs to function if he's going to generate children. His wife's body is dead, her body no longer functions.

These are not illusions, this is fact, this is material fact. But Abraham has another fact. And the other fact he has is that God has said something. And he believes that fact, and he chooses to go with that fact.

So he's blind and deaf to the other facts, in order to be alive, awake, seeing and hearing the thing that God is saying. So it goes on to say then, he did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully persuaded that what he had promised he was able also to perform.

Therefore it was accounted to him for righteousness. Really, the thing that we are forbidden to do has to do with condemnation. And we touched on this last week, but I'm going to touch on it again, because I really think this is such an important issue, and it's something which Christians so often get wrong, and it really gets us into a mess when we get this wrong.

In the Acts of the Apostles, it's about six chapters, it's about a sixth of the Acts of the Apostles, is actually given over to the story of a trial, a court appearance of Paul. Now when you think of all the other things that are going on in the Acts of the Apostles, this is really quite a hefty chunk.

Now when God does that, there's significance to it. And I believe that part of the significance is, is because God wants to make it very plain to us, the pattern of law of a court and the way that it worked.

It worked like this. You had, first of all, in a Roman court, you had an accuser. Someone would accuse one person of another thing. They would accuse this person of stealing their land, or killing their cow, or something like this.

And that would start off this thing. Then usually there was an arrest. The person that had been accused was arrested pending the trial. And then you have the trial. Then in the trial, the evidence is brought forth, and a process of judging begins, a process of appraisal, of measuring information, measuring data begins to operate.

So you start off with the accusation, then you move on to this question of assessment or appraisal. Then ultimately a decision is made. They had a kind of group like magistrates, not really like our jury system.

But ultimately a decision would be made. When the decision was made, the verdict would actually be given. And the verdict is like the sentence. Now, once the sentence is passed, this person is now a criminal.

A criminal is someone who has had a sentence passed against him. That's to say, someone who's had a verdict against him. That's what a criminal is. And up until that point, he may have done it, and it may be obvious that he'd done it, but he is not a criminal until the verdict is issued.

Do you follow this? This might seem really very, very pedantic, but it's such an important background of so much of what the Bible wants to teach us. You start off with an accusation, then there's the process of appraisal, trying to sift in through the evidence.

Then ultimately there's a decision, and then there's the verdict, which is guilty or not guilty of the accusation that was brought against him. That's the way it kind of works. If the person had not been proven guilty, remember this is all to do with the court, it might even have been that the person had stolen your cow or something like this.

But if the evidence could not be brought to prove it, and the appraisal of the court was such that the person, the verdict was, no, this guilt is not proven against this person, the person would go from the court justified.

This is where this great word justification comes in. That doesn't mean he hasn't done the crime. It means the court has not found him guilty. Are you following this? It doesn't mean he isn't answerable to God.

It just means that in the law court, the man is now a free man. The law no longer has any claim on him, nothing that can be done against him. The man walked to the court absolutely a free man. He is declared justified.

This is why I often quote to you this kind of pidgin English thing of this definition of justification, which is God, him say, me all right. That really is a perfect illustration of what this whole idea of justification means.

It means that the court has not upheld the charges against me. The reason for that is because the penalty has already been paid by somebody else. Now, if I am found guilty, following the verdict of guilty, that is at the end of the process, following the verdict of guilty, there comes the sentencing and the carrying out of the sentence.

Those next two are the condemnation. Condemnation is the pronouncing of the sentence and the carrying out of the sentence. Now, for those who are in Christ and who are declared all right by God, there is for them who are in Christ, therefore, no condemnation.

It does not go on to these next stages. The whole process grinds to a halt because once the person has been justified, the court no longer has any interest and the man just walks away and it is all over.

So, there is literally no condemnation. Now, the reason I am saying this is because we persistently use the language of condemnation and I have been kind of going on banging this drum for 20 years here now.

I have been here 20 years now. To use the word condemnation is actually just to confuse ourselves. You cannot condemn yourself because you are not the judge. Only the judge can do this. You can't condemn anybody else because only the judge can do that.

You don't have the right to be the judge. You don't have the right to pass the sentence. You don't have the right to brand somebody as a criminal. You can't do it. And Satan can't do it. He is the accuser of the brethren, not the condemner of the brethren.

He will bring accusations against you and you can bring an accusation against somebody else and you can actually bring an accusation against yourself. So, you can put yourself back in the court if you are not careful.

But you can't actually condemn yourself because condemnation is God's will. This is why Paul later on goes and he says, well, who is he that condemns? God, who is declared as righteous? That doesn't make any sense.

How can God condemn us when he declares us righteous? It's kind of turning the whole legal system upside down on its head. It doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Okay. So, there is a sense in which certain people can condemn and issue this statement of the sentence that follows the guilty verdict.

And actually, the references I was using just the other Sunday morning when I was talking about the people of Nineveh, they shall rise up in the judgment and condemn the people of Capernaum, Capernaum, Carazan, Bethsaida and the Queen of the Sand, the Queen of Sheba will rise up in the judgment and condemn.

Apparently, they are going to kind of carry out a sentence on people who did not believe. We'll talk a little bit more about judging things a little bit later on. Let me show you an example of this where hopefully it will make this clear.

John chapter 8 is this famous story of the woman who had actually been caught in the act of adultery. And you know she is dragged before the Lord. He is in the temple. John chapter 8, verse 3. Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman caught in adultery.

And when they had set her in the midst, they say to him, Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery. In the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us that such should be stoned. What do you say? This they said, testing him, that they might have something of which to accuse him.

But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with his finger as though he did not hear. So when they continued asking him, he raised himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.

And again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest, even to the last. And Jesus was left alone and the woman standing in the midst.

When Jesus had raised himself up and saw no one but the woman, he said to her, Woman, where are those accusers of yours? You see where it starts off? It starts off with the accusers. Where are the accusers? He says.

In other words, if this case is going to be handled by the court here, you have to start off with an accuser. Where are the accusers? And then he jumps to the end of the court case and he says, Has no one condemned you?

Now this is the only time in John's Gospel the word condemn is used. Now we have it in our authorised version in John chapter 3 and it really is very confusing where it's being put. It shouldn't be there.

This is the only place it occurs. And Jesus says to them, Where are the accusers? Has there been no condemnation? And then he says this. She says, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I condemn you.

Go and sin no more. Now that does not mean that Jesus has ignored the fact that this woman is an adulteress. It doesn't mean that. What it means is he will not pass the verdict. He will not pass the sentence.

He will not condemn her. He will not condemn her to death by stoning. He will not do it. He will not do it. And he won't do it to you either. And those who come to him, he will never pass the sentence.

There is always forgiveness for those who come to him. There are accusers here but the accusers are now gone and Jesus certainly will not be an accuser. But then there's this other thing. So what we need to be sure that we're doing is that although we are using our faculties, our critical faculties, our ability to decide one thing against another thing, we are not using it in the sense of being an absolute judge who puts a brand upon this person and says, this person is carnal or this person is an adulterer or any of these things.

We don't have the right to do that unless it comes directly by revelation. That is to say, we hear what God is saying and we have a word to speak. Let me go on a little bit. Really what Jesus is doing here is our model for a judgment.

His judgment is not based on his own preferences. It's not based on the things that irritate him or the things that offend him. His whole judgment is based upon what he hears his father doing. He doesn't judge according to his own will.

He doesn't judge according to his own preferences. He doesn't do these things because he isn't the judge. He will be one day, but he isn't the judge in that sense at this point. Let's see if I can just make that even more simple for us.

Sometimes when I'm talking to people about sexual sin, particularly with young people, I make this point because I think it's a really important issue to make, that sexuality is not sin. Sex is not sin, biblically.

Sex plus self is sin. And judgment is not sin. Judgment plus self is sin. Are you following this? Is that making sense? It's when I am doing something for my own benefit, when I am getting something off my chest, when I am doing something because I can't live with it any longer.

When James wrote his letter, he said, the wrath of man doesn't worth the righteousness of God. And there are some people they get fed up to their teeth with people, and then they spill over in their anger.

But that's not what we're talking about here. That is judgment which has become sin, because it's judgment which has been added to self. Am I making this clear? Okay. So you can't pretend that you're not seeing what you're seeing.

And to do so is, well, you'll just make yourself kind of schizophrenic. You'll end up actually with a bad conscience. That's what will happen. In fact, I know instances of this where this has happened.

I know an instance which is well known to some of us of a certain man who a brother knew that this man was in sin and he knew the things he was doing, but everybody in the church was actually saying, no, he's fine.

This is actually a gift of God. This man has exercised and he went on like this. And this man who had a judgment which had actually come from God discernment, because he knew actually that this man was actually clairvoyant.

Let me tell you the story of that thing and the names in it. There was a man in one of the fellowships very, very early on, a man who was still active in apparently kind of Christian circles, and he was very powerful in effectively reading people's minds.

I know people who can listen to conversations that take place in the next house. I know a man who can have a conversation with his wife when she isn't at home. There are certain clairvoyant powers that certain people have, but sometimes they can be dressed in such a way that people think that this is actually spiritual discernment.

And there was a certain brother who was constantly doing this. He was constantly exposing people in meetings, and he was constantly exposing sins, causing embarrassment, distress, reviling, and actually railing, actually accusing them publicly all the time.

And to begin with, the church thought that this was actually a gift of God. But there was one man in the church who felt very uneasy in his conscience. But because he wasn't supposed to judge these things, he shut down this thing inside of him, and he almost had a nervous breakdown.

Until he actually came to the place where he said, I'm going to have to say this, whatever the implications are, whatever the consequences are. And actually, when it was done, there was an absolute release of that thing, and the person was exposed, and the person was ultimately put out of the church.

But it's important that we don't pretend, we don't try to pretend, that we are not seeing something if we are seeing something. But we don't set ourselves up as the judge. If God gives us revelation, it's so that we can do something about it, so that we can praise, so that we can talk to that individual.

Those are kind of the patterns of it. I've got a little quotation that I often put in my Bibles. It isn't either in either of these Bibles, but I've written it down here. It's from a man whose name was Anthony Norris Groves.

And he was a missionary, he was a reverend missionary to Persia and India, and a very, very godly man. And I think one of the things that happens to us at times is we see things, maybe we see things that happen in other circles, and we're uncomfortable with them, and we don't know whether we should be uncomfortable with them, and we don't know quite how we should handle these things.

Well, there's no slick answer to this question. I think you just have to take your uncertainties to the Lord and talk to him about it. This is a little quotation here from Anthony Norris Groves. It's this.

He said this. What a blessing it is that the Lord's heart is so large that he can help whenever he sees some good thing, whereas man withdraws because he sees some evil thing, which is generally found to mean something that wounds his self-love in the little scheme he has set up as perfection.

Often the reason that people do condemn other things, the reason they do sentence other things and brand them with this or that is because something has happened which doesn't quite fit into that little world that they have created.

This little scheme of their self-love where everything is in perfect order, and we need to be very careful that we don't get drawn into that. And we need to be very careful that we don't get drawn into accusing people of not being spiritual because they see something differently to the way I see it.