Does Belief in the Trinity Necessitate Shirk?

Say, O Thou that hast the power to speak a word equal to a thing. Does belief in the Trinity necessitate shirk? We have Adnan al-Rashid. I would like to welcome Musa, Adnan's son, to say a few words.

Peace be upon you, O Abdullahi wa barakatuh. Alhamdulillah rabbil alameen wassalatu wassalamu ala khatimul anbiya wa sayyidil mursaleen wa ala alihi wa sahbihi ajma 'in amma ba 'a. My father's name is Adnan Rashid.

He is a Muslim preacher and he has debated many Christian clergy in the past on diverse topics. He is presently studying history at the University of London and he is presently serving as a khatim for the Harare Muslim Youth Association.

He is a player on a number of radio channels defending Islam including Premier Christian Radio and he is also an active member of an Islamic think tank called Hilton Institute. I hope you will enjoy this debate and I hope it will benefit you.

Assalamu alaikum.

This is James White. James White is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and their website is www .aomi which is a Christian apologetics organisation based in Phoenix, Arizona in the US. He is author of more than 20 books a professor and an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

James has been married to Kelly for more than 25 years and has two children. He is an accomplished debater having engaged in more than 60 moderated public debates with the leading proponents of Abrahamic Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.

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So let's now move on to debate itself. Does belief in the trinity necessitate shirk? And our first speaker will be Adnan Rashid As-salamu alaykum.

Adnan Rashid Argues That the Trinity Is Shirk

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful All praise is due to Allah.

We praise Him, we seek His help and we seek His forgiveness.

And we seek refuge in Allah from the evils of our souls.

And from the evils of our deeds.

Whomsoever He guides, none can misguide him and whosoever He punishes, none can save him.

Say, O Muhammad, that we worship you. Say, bear witness, literally, that we submit to you to the will of God as we shall show till it is clear God is not the author of confusion, ladies and gentlemen.

Professor James White. We have a debate with a scholar like Dr. James White. I definitely have respect for his credentials. He, in one of his previous debates mentioned Lame's Lexicon. It's a standard to check the definition of shirk.

The green spots you can see on these three pages. Shirk, shirk, shirk. So literally, the word shirk linguistically means to share, to be a partner, to be a co-equal. So, Dr. White, Trinity, shirk. Because, in the Quranic mysteries.

This one being of God is shared by three co-equals. Shared by three co-equals. Then, in the second page.

Infinite being of God.

Shared fully and completely by three persons.

Shared.

So, Adam and Eve Lame's Lexicon states Shirk literally means to share. So, linguistically, Dr. James White I've already proven that Trinity definitely necessitates shirk. The linguistic meaning of shirk.

Our concern today is the technical meaning of shirk. What is shirk?

Trinity, whether it is shirk or not.

Technically So we will go to Quran first of all Because the term shirk or the concept of shirk Actually originates within the Quran Explains shirk to be a concept in which With God Almighty.

Who is God?

Who is the being and Christian in the Bible as God the Father. So, if you start Theism, God, number of God. Shirk, however, doesn't mean polytheism. Shirk has a different meaning. You can be a polytheist and be a shirk.

Be a worshipper at the same time. Someone who commits shirk.

For example, Quran gives us.

In Surah Shura, verse number 21 Who constitutes a religion for you So you can be a believer in one God. You concoct a legislation.

On top of his legislation.

Then you become a mushrik. Even though you believe in one God. You can be a polytheist and be a mushrik at the same time. So shirk is a scribing part to God Almighty. In its attributes, shirk means Who is, again, God the Father.

And I will prove that to you tonight That God the Father is the only true God. In chapter 17, verse 23 Go to your parents. Worship none other but God Almighty.

Number 36.

Worship Allah. In chapter 4, verse 48 Verily, Allah forgives not To be set up with Him.

But He forgives except that.

Anything else to whom He pleases. So Allah will not forgive shirk. Shirk is a crime Which will not be forgiven.

Until you repent.

Until you repent before you die.

So if you die in the state of shirk.

You are going straight to hell. According to the Islamic understanding of Quran Whosoever testifies that there is a God This is Prophet Muhammad.

In one of the hadith.

In the prophetic tradition.

Where Prophet Muhammad.

Said certain statements about Islam.

And there is a hadith.

Which is what explains the Quran to us. We have almost 60 ,000 Attending a hadith from Prophet Muhammad.

And in one of the hadith Which is narrated by Bukhari, a Muslim He stated.

Whosoever testifies that there is none.

No one worthy of worship.

And Muhammad is a slave and messenger And Jesus is the slave of God And His messenger.

And His word.

Which He bestowed upon Mary And He is a spirit from Him.

And paradise is truth.

And hell is truth Such a person can enter paradise No matter what his actions are like.

Bukhari and Muslim.

Now the definition of trinity. We have to see whether Trinity actually constitutes shirk.

Does belief in trinity.

Lead you to shirk.

That is the question.

First definition of trinity. Which is a very interesting definition. By Thomas Jefferson. I am sure that James White is aware of Who Thomas Jefferson is. He is the writer of Declaration of Independence.

He stated about trinity. Platonic mysticism.

That three are one.

And one is three. And yet one is not three.

And three are not one I never had sense enough.

To comprehend the trinity.

And it appeared to me.

That comprehension must precede. Must precede assent Thomas Jefferson. Now we go to James White. Dr. James White.

Definition of trinity.

Dr. James White States in his article The doctrine of the trinity Simply that there is One eternal being of God.

Indivisible.

Infinite. This one being of God Is shared by three co-equals. Shared by three co-equals. Co-eternal person.

The Father.

The Son.

And the Holy Spirit.

So let's go to the Quran I have already explained to you. The Quran is the first book To use the word shirk.

In the way it is used.

The concept of shirk Originates from the Quran So Quran is the first authority We refer to In order to understand Whether trinity is shirk or not.

What does Quran say?

First of all.

The formula of Quran. Chapter 4 O people of the scripture.

Do not exceed the limits.

In your religion.

O people of the scripture. Do not exceed limits.

Nor say of God.

But the truth.

The Messiah.

And his word Which he bestowed.

On Mary.

And the spirit created by him. So believe in one God And his messenger. Believe in God And his messengers. Say not three. Say not three.

Seize it.

Desist.

It will be better for you. Say not three. Christians say three I will come to Address that issue.

In a minute.

Verse number 72.

Chapter 4.

Surely they have disbelieved.

Who say.

They have disbelieved.

Who say.

Allah is the Messiah God is the Messiah.

Son of Mary.

James White.

In his paper On Trinity.

On his website He has stated.

That Yahweh.

Is Jesus Or Jesus.

Identifies himself As Yahweh.

When he says.

I am.

Before Abraham was.

I am.

And that is the term.

That is the expression Which Yahweh Used for himself. So if Yahweh Who we see as God the Father In the Old Testament If he is saying That he is Jesus Or Jesus is saying.

He is Yahweh.

This is exactly what he is saying And that is what Quran is talking about That Allah is the Messiah.

Son of Mary.

But the Messiah said Ya Bani Israel Ya Bani Israel.

So believe in God. Necessitate shirk.

In the Quran.

If Dr. James White.

Studying the Quran.

Carefully.

He would have never chosen this topic. For a debate today. Never would he have chosen this topic.

If you studied the Quran.

Carefully Dr. White.

You would not choose this topic.

I say it again.

Because There is a clear.

Explicit verse in the Quran Which is saying That Trinity is shirk Because Jesus Look what Jesus is saying in the Quran Surely they are disbelieved to say Surely they are disbelieved to say Indeed Allah.

Who is the Messiah of Mary. Who is the Messiah.

God Almighty is telling us. And Jesus The Son of Mary.

The Messiah said.

Ya Bani Israel.

O Children of Israel The Jews Worship Allah Surely they are shirk Surely they are shirk.

Whoever has Christ.

Pardon me.

That Jesus is Yahweh.

Whatever he was. This is very clear ladies and gentlemen.

Congratulations.

Dr. James White.

The Quran.

The Trinity.

Definitely necessitates shirk.

So.

There are other passages in the Quran.

But I will leave them aside.

For rebuttals. Or for Dr. James White.

To respond.

Or comment on them.

Then.

Who is God Almighty.

In the previous debates.

With.

Jalal Abu Ruh He stated That Quran never Gave us great knowledge Of the doctrine of Trinity.

And then again he stated And this he stated.

In the ninth minute.

Of that debate. You can go and check it. This is what Dr. White said.

I Will.

Request Dr. White Not to make.

Generalizations.

Violent generalizations.

Like that.

Because a scholar Doesn't do that. And you're a scholar. Dr. James White.

Quran.

Does not even give us Semi-accurate definition of Trinity This is an absurdity. Ladies and gentlemen Read the verses of Quran Chapter 4 Verse 171.

Do not say three.

Three what?

Do the Christians say three? The question is Do the Christians say three? Yes they say three. How do they say three? They say three persons.

In one Trinity.

Quran is making a general statement.

Which is applicable.

To all the Christians.

Desist.

It will be better That Christians say three. Don't say three.

Whether you say three persons. Three gods.

Three deities.

Three beings Or three persons Within one Trinity. Quran is saying Don't say it Because it's shared It's quality.

With anyone.

So that is the definition.

Of Trinity.

Within the Quran.

Which is accurate. You cannot say That it is inaccurate. Dr. James White. If you studied the Quran.

Carefully.

You would never make such a claim.

Allah is the Messiah of Mary.

The Messiah is God.

Do you say that?

Yes you say that. You say Yahweh is Jesus And Jesus is Yahweh. Jesus is identifying Himself as Yahweh.

When he says.

Before Abraham was.

I am.

You stated that clearly In your article Dr. James White.

So why do you say.

That Quran doesn't give us.

An accurate definition of Trinity.

This is very accurate.

This is what you claim for Jesus.

That he is God.

So.

So much with The Quranic knowledge Of Dr. James White Trinity is shared According to Old Testament. He states that.

Trinity is.

Definitely shared.

There are no.

Questions about this.

This simply doesn't.

Respond.

Respond on this.

Now.

Some Christians.

May object. They say.

Ok that's Quran.

We don't believe in Quran.

We believe in the Old Testament And the New Testament So prove to us.

That Trinity.

Is actually.

Shirk from the Old Testament Or the New Testament.

From the Bible.

Quran definitely states That Trinity is shirk.

And shirk is one of the.

Worst crimes you can commit.

Now.

Old Testament.

Chapter 8 Verse 10 There is none like unto.

Let's decide him.

This day. And consider it.

In thine eyes And upon the earth beneath There is none else Deuteronomy.

6 .4 -5.

Here on Israel.

The Shammah.

Famous Shammah.

To Samuel 7 .22.

Wherefore thou art.

For there is none Like unto thee.

The question is.

Who is this thee? The Israelite.

Potter.

In heaven above.

Among the gods.

There is none like unto thee.

O Lord.

Neither are they.

Any words like unto.

Your words Again.

Psalms 89 .6 For who is in the heaven.

Can be compared.

Unto the Lord.

The Christians.

Identify this God.

Consisting of.

Three persons.

And the Spirit.

Now.

Yes.

Yes.

O it is God It is said Blessed be thou.

O Lord.

So David.

There is none like unto.

The Lord.

There is none.

So if you imagine.

In the Old Testament. And there is none like.

Is the God.

This is one of the.

Jewish chapters.

Chapter 12 Verse 29 -30.

Famous Shammah.

He asks.

Master.

What is the first commandment? I have to do the rest Of my fifteen minutes.

So.

In Shammah Mark 12.

29.

Jesus is saying.

He is answering.

The scribe.

The Christian scribe.

Hear O Israel.

The Lord.

And this is the law.

That you choose.

Ladies and gentlemen. And then he is saying And thou shalt love The Lord thy God With all thy heart And with all thy soul And with all thy mind And with all thy strength.

And the scribe.

Said unto him Well Master Thou hast said.

The truth.

For there is one God And there is none Other but He. Ladies and gentlemen Pay attention.

To this.

The scribe Replied.

To Jesus.

He said to him.

There is one God.

And there is no other.

But He Jesus is saying That is the Father In the book of John Chapter 8.

Verse 54.

When Jesus said to the Jews.

That.

Father is your God.

About whom you say.

That He is your God.

Father.

So this Jewish scribe.

Said.

That is Father. And then Jesus said to him.

Thou art not.

You are not Father. If he was.

Divine If he Wanted to teach.

This person.

That I am the God. This was the first time. This was the best time He could have said it.

Jesus had.

Other things to say.

Book of Matthew.

Chapter 5.

Verse 30.

He told them.

About divorce.

It was said to you That when you divorce.

A certificate.

Will be given to you.

But I say to you That divorce.

Cannot be done Except for the.

Immoral reasons.

And anyone who is.

Divorced cannot be.

Denied.

Anyone who marries A divorced woman.

Will be causing her To commit adultery. Jesus had time.

To tell you that.

But he didn't have time To worship him as well.

But he is saying.

There is only one Which is the Father.

Whom Jesus acknowledged.

And then.

Jesus Said.

You are very close.

Then again.

Jesus said.

Unto the woman.

The woman.

Came to Jesus And she spoke to him And Jesus said to her.

We know.

That we worship.

But.

We know.

That we worship Jesus is saying For salvation.

Of the Jews Jews Worship.

Father Jews.

Did not worship.

Jesus and Holy Spirit. Ladies and gentlemen.

This is your Bible.

I'm quoting.

And this is addressed To the Christians In particular.

Jews.

Worship Father alone Book of John Chapter 8.

Verse 54.

Where Jesus.

Acknowledged that divinity.

That he said.

To the Jews.

That this is the Father.

Whom you say Is God.

30 minutes.

Ladies and gentlemen.

Thank you very much For listening to me.

I have Some.

Of my presentations. Which is.

Left.

And I will come.

And address that.

In my.

Propaganda.

Thank you very much.

For listening to me.

Peace be upon you.

We will now Before we continue We're going to take A 10 minute break.

For.

Changing the text.

It's something.

That has to be done.

To avoid that.

I neglected to mention In the introduction That fire regulations.

Require that I mention.

The two fire exits. There's one here. On my right.

Over there.

And the other exit. Is where you came. Into the building.

Which is.

In that way Over there.

Please remember.

To write down Your questions. For the question.

And answer session.

As well.

And finally There are toilets.

Downstairs.

Go back.

Through the way.

You came into the building. There's some stairs. Down through the hall.

And you'll see.

There are toilets. For ladies and gentlemen.

There.

So there will be A 10 minute break.

Now Paul.

I'm sorry We're just going to Have a 2 minute break.

We're going to go.

Immediately into.

This section.

Okay.

Just want to Go ahead and change.

Okay.

We need to go.

To the toilet.

We need to go.

To the toilet.

So can you put.

A name.

James White Or Adnan Rashid. On the written paper.

You're giving me.

Thank you. Okay Paul.

We're going to.

Continue the debate.

And I'd like to Introduce again Dr. James White.

Who will make.

His first speech.

Thank you.

James White Defends the Trinity as Biblical Monotheism

It is indeed.

An honour to be With you this evening.

Here in London.

We've had a fine.

Crowd come out. And it is.

An invitingly.

Important subject.

That we are addressing I think it is a good thing.

That we as.

Christians and Muslims Can get together And have these kinds.

Of dialogues That demonstrate That both of us.

Believe in the truth We want to Proclaim the truth And I believe That as long as People are allowed To freely Give vent To their beliefs.

Then we will be.

Able to have These opportunities.

To continue speaking.

To one another.

It's when we stop. That freedom.

That people begin.

To fight. And I've just been.

Told to stop. Do you disagree brother?

Is that the problem? Please agree.

We'll start again.

Start again.

Okay.