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Say, O Thou that hast the power to speak a word equal to a thing. Does belief in the Trinity necessitate shirk? We have Adnan al-Rashid. I would like to welcome Musa, Adnan's son, to say a few words.
Peace be upon you, O Abdullahi wa barakatuh. Alhamdulillah rabbil alameen wassalatu wassalamu ala khatimul anbiya wa sayyidil mursaleen wa ala alihi wa sahbihi ajma 'in amma ba 'a. My father's name is Adnan Rashid.
He is a Muslim preacher and he has debated many Christian clergy in the past on diverse topics. He is presently studying history at the University of London and he is presently serving as a khatim for the Harare Muslim Youth Association.
He is a player on a number of radio channels defending Islam including Premier Christian Radio and he is also an active member of an Islamic think tank called Hilton Institute. I hope you will enjoy this debate and I hope it will benefit you.
Assalamu alaikum.
This is James White. James White is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries and their website is www .aomi which is a Christian apologetics organisation based in Phoenix, Arizona in the US. He is author of more than 20 books a professor and an elder of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
James has been married to Kelly for more than 25 years and has two children. He is an accomplished debater having engaged in more than 60 moderated public debates with the leading proponents of Abrahamic Catholicism, Islam, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism.
The entire debate series has been filmed for distribution to communities internationally. For this reason, we ask you to hold your applause until the end of the debate. No cameras, automobiles or cell phones are allowed and if your phone somehow got past our rigorous security system at the door it needs to be switched off now, please.
Please write your questions for the debaters and clearly state who the question is for. The cards will be collected after the first break. An equal number of questions will be given to each debater with a rebuttal from the opposing side.
Now to the structure of the debate. Each speaker will be given 30 minutes for an opening statement followed by a 15 minute rebuttal. There will then be 30 minutes for questions and answers from the floor.
This should be followed by a 5 minute concluding statement by each speaker and just to warn you, there will be a 10 minute break for changing tapes after the first 30 minutes and I'll announce that as it happens.
So let's now move on to debate itself. Does belief in the trinity necessitate shirk? And our first speaker will be Adnan Rashid As-salamu alaykum.
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful All praise is due to Allah.
We praise Him, we seek His help and we seek His forgiveness.
And we seek refuge in Allah from the evils of our souls.
And from the evils of our deeds.
Whomsoever He guides, none can misguide him and whosoever He punishes, none can save him.
Say, O Muhammad, that we worship you. Say, bear witness, literally, that we submit to you to the will of God as we shall show till it is clear God is not the author of confusion, ladies and gentlemen.
Professor James White. We have a debate with a scholar like Dr. James White. I definitely have respect for his credentials. He, in one of his previous debates mentioned Lame's Lexicon. It's a standard to check the definition of shirk.
The green spots you can see on these three pages. Shirk, shirk, shirk. So literally, the word shirk linguistically means to share, to be a partner, to be a co-equal. So, Dr. White, Trinity, shirk. Because, in the Quranic mysteries.
This one being of God is shared by three co-equals. Shared by three co-equals. Then, in the second page.
Infinite being of God.
Shared fully and completely by three persons.
Shared.
So, Adam and Eve Lame's Lexicon states Shirk literally means to share. So, linguistically, Dr. James White I've already proven that Trinity definitely necessitates shirk. The linguistic meaning of shirk.
Our concern today is the technical meaning of shirk. What is shirk?
Trinity, whether it is shirk or not.
Technically So we will go to Quran first of all Because the term shirk or the concept of shirk Actually originates within the Quran Explains shirk to be a concept in which With God Almighty.
Who is God?
Who is the being and Christian in the Bible as God the Father. So, if you start Theism, God, number of God. Shirk, however, doesn't mean polytheism. Shirk has a different meaning. You can be a polytheist and be a shirk.
Be a worshipper at the same time. Someone who commits shirk.
For example, Quran gives us.
In Surah Shura, verse number 21 Who constitutes a religion for you So you can be a believer in one God. You concoct a legislation.
On top of his legislation.
Then you become a mushrik. Even though you believe in one God. You can be a polytheist and be a mushrik at the same time. So shirk is a scribing part to God Almighty. In its attributes, shirk means Who is, again, God the Father.
And I will prove that to you tonight That God the Father is the only true God. In chapter 17, verse 23 Go to your parents. Worship none other but God Almighty.
Number 36.
Worship Allah. In chapter 4, verse 48 Verily, Allah forgives not To be set up with Him.
But He forgives except that.
Anything else to whom He pleases. So Allah will not forgive shirk. Shirk is a crime Which will not be forgiven.
Until you repent.
Until you repent before you die.
So if you die in the state of shirk.
You are going straight to hell. According to the Islamic understanding of Quran Whosoever testifies that there is a God This is Prophet Muhammad.
In one of the hadith.
In the prophetic tradition.
Where Prophet Muhammad.
Said certain statements about Islam.
And there is a hadith.
Which is what explains the Quran to us. We have almost 60 ,000 Attending a hadith from Prophet Muhammad.
And in one of the hadith Which is narrated by Bukhari, a Muslim He stated.
Whosoever testifies that there is none.
No one worthy of worship.
And Muhammad is a slave and messenger And Jesus is the slave of God And His messenger.
And His word.
Which He bestowed upon Mary And He is a spirit from Him.
And paradise is truth.
And hell is truth Such a person can enter paradise No matter what his actions are like.
Bukhari and Muslim.
Now the definition of trinity. We have to see whether Trinity actually constitutes shirk.
Does belief in trinity.
Lead you to shirk.
That is the question.
First definition of trinity. Which is a very interesting definition. By Thomas Jefferson. I am sure that James White is aware of Who Thomas Jefferson is. He is the writer of Declaration of Independence.
He stated about trinity. Platonic mysticism.
That three are one.
And one is three. And yet one is not three.
And three are not one I never had sense enough.
To comprehend the trinity.
And it appeared to me.
That comprehension must precede. Must precede assent Thomas Jefferson. Now we go to James White. Dr. James White.
Definition of trinity.
Dr. James White States in his article The doctrine of the trinity Simply that there is One eternal being of God.
Indivisible.
Infinite. This one being of God Is shared by three co-equals. Shared by three co-equals. Co-eternal person.
The Father.
The Son.
And the Holy Spirit.
So let's go to the Quran I have already explained to you. The Quran is the first book To use the word shirk.
In the way it is used.
The concept of shirk Originates from the Quran So Quran is the first authority We refer to In order to understand Whether trinity is shirk or not.
What does Quran say?
First of all.
The formula of Quran. Chapter 4 O people of the scripture.
Do not exceed the limits.
In your religion.
O people of the scripture. Do not exceed limits.
Nor say of God.
But the truth.
The Messiah.
And his word Which he bestowed.
On Mary.
And the spirit created by him. So believe in one God And his messenger. Believe in God And his messengers. Say not three. Say not three.
Seize it.
Desist.
It will be better for you. Say not three. Christians say three I will come to Address that issue.
In a minute.
Verse number 72.
Chapter 4.
Surely they have disbelieved.
Who say.
They have disbelieved.
Allah is the Messiah God is the Messiah.
Son of Mary.
James White.
In his paper On Trinity.
On his website He has stated.
That Yahweh.
Is Jesus Or Jesus.
Identifies himself As Yahweh.
When he says.
I am.
Before Abraham was.
And that is the term.
That is the expression Which Yahweh Used for himself. So if Yahweh Who we see as God the Father In the Old Testament If he is saying That he is Jesus Or Jesus is saying.
He is Yahweh.
This is exactly what he is saying And that is what Quran is talking about That Allah is the Messiah.
But the Messiah said Ya Bani Israel Ya Bani Israel.
So believe in God. Necessitate shirk.
In the Quran.
If Dr. James White.
Studying the Quran.
Carefully.
He would have never chosen this topic. For a debate today. Never would he have chosen this topic.
If you studied the Quran.
Carefully Dr. White.
You would not choose this topic.
I say it again.
Because There is a clear.
Explicit verse in the Quran Which is saying That Trinity is shirk Because Jesus Look what Jesus is saying in the Quran Surely they are disbelieved to say Surely they are disbelieved to say Indeed Allah.
Who is the Messiah of Mary. Who is the Messiah.
God Almighty is telling us. And Jesus The Son of Mary.
The Messiah said.
Ya Bani Israel.
O Children of Israel The Jews Worship Allah Surely they are shirk Surely they are shirk.
Whoever has Christ.
Pardon me.
That Jesus is Yahweh.
Whatever he was. This is very clear ladies and gentlemen.
Congratulations.
Dr. James White.
The Quran.
The Trinity.
Definitely necessitates shirk.
So.
There are other passages in the Quran.
But I will leave them aside.
For rebuttals. Or for Dr. James White.
To respond.
Or comment on them.
Then.
Who is God Almighty.
In the previous debates.
With.
Jalal Abu Ruh He stated That Quran never Gave us great knowledge Of the doctrine of Trinity.
And then again he stated And this he stated.
In the ninth minute.
Of that debate. You can go and check it. This is what Dr. White said.
I Will.
Request Dr. White Not to make.
Generalizations.
Violent generalizations.
Like that.
Because a scholar Doesn't do that. And you're a scholar. Dr. James White.
Quran.
Does not even give us Semi-accurate definition of Trinity This is an absurdity. Ladies and gentlemen Read the verses of Quran Chapter 4 Verse 171.
Do not say three.
Three what?
Do the Christians say three? The question is Do the Christians say three? Yes they say three. How do they say three? They say three persons.
In one Trinity.
Quran is making a general statement.
Which is applicable.
To all the Christians.
It will be better That Christians say three. Don't say three.
Whether you say three persons. Three gods.
Three deities.
Three beings Or three persons Within one Trinity. Quran is saying Don't say it Because it's shared It's quality.
With anyone.
So that is the definition.
Of Trinity.
Within the Quran.
Which is accurate. You cannot say That it is inaccurate. Dr. James White. If you studied the Quran.
You would never make such a claim.
Allah is the Messiah of Mary.
The Messiah is God.
Do you say that?
Yes you say that. You say Yahweh is Jesus And Jesus is Yahweh. Jesus is identifying Himself as Yahweh.
You stated that clearly In your article Dr. James White.
So why do you say.
That Quran doesn't give us.
An accurate definition of Trinity.
This is very accurate.
This is what you claim for Jesus.
That he is God.
So much with The Quranic knowledge Of Dr. James White Trinity is shared According to Old Testament. He states that.
Trinity is.
Definitely shared.
There are no.
Questions about this.
This simply doesn't.
Respond.
Respond on this.
Now.
Some Christians.
May object. They say.
Ok that's Quran.
We don't believe in Quran.
We believe in the Old Testament And the New Testament So prove to us.
That Trinity.
Is actually.
Shirk from the Old Testament Or the New Testament.
From the Bible.
Quran definitely states That Trinity is shirk.
And shirk is one of the.
Worst crimes you can commit.
Old Testament.
Chapter 8 Verse 10 There is none like unto.
Let's decide him.
This day. And consider it.
In thine eyes And upon the earth beneath There is none else Deuteronomy.
6 .4 -5.
Here on Israel.
The Shammah.
Famous Shammah.
To Samuel 7 .22.
Wherefore thou art.
For there is none Like unto thee.
The question is.
Who is this thee? The Israelite.
Potter.
In heaven above.
Among the gods.
There is none like unto thee.
O Lord.
Neither are they.
Any words like unto.
Your words Again.
Psalms 89 .6 For who is in the heaven.
Can be compared.
Unto the Lord.
The Christians.
Identify this God.
Consisting of.
Three persons.
And the Spirit.
Yes.
O it is God It is said Blessed be thou.
So David.
There is none like unto.
The Lord.
There is none.
So if you imagine.
In the Old Testament. And there is none like.
Is the God.
This is one of the.
Jewish chapters.
Chapter 12 Verse 29 -30.
He asks.
Master.
What is the first commandment? I have to do the rest Of my fifteen minutes.
In Shammah Mark 12.
29.
Jesus is saying.
He is answering.
The scribe.
The Christian scribe.
Hear O Israel.
And this is the law.
That you choose.
Ladies and gentlemen. And then he is saying And thou shalt love The Lord thy God With all thy heart And with all thy soul And with all thy mind And with all thy strength.
And the scribe.
Said unto him Well Master Thou hast said.
The truth.
For there is one God And there is none Other but He. Ladies and gentlemen Pay attention.
To this.
The scribe Replied.
To Jesus.
He said to him.
There is one God.
And there is no other.
But He Jesus is saying That is the Father In the book of John Chapter 8.
Verse 54.
When Jesus said to the Jews.
That.
Father is your God.
About whom you say.
That He is your God.
Father.
So this Jewish scribe.
Said.
That is Father. And then Jesus said to him.
Thou art not.
You are not Father. If he was.
Divine If he Wanted to teach.
This person.
That I am the God. This was the first time. This was the best time He could have said it.
Jesus had.
Other things to say.
Book of Matthew.
Chapter 5.
Verse 30.
He told them.
About divorce.
It was said to you That when you divorce.
A certificate.
Will be given to you.
But I say to you That divorce.
Cannot be done Except for the.
Immoral reasons.
And anyone who is.
Divorced cannot be.
Denied.
Anyone who marries A divorced woman.
Will be causing her To commit adultery. Jesus had time.
To tell you that.
But he didn't have time To worship him as well.
But he is saying.
There is only one Which is the Father.
Whom Jesus acknowledged.
And then.
Jesus Said.
You are very close.
Then again.
Jesus said.
Unto the woman.
The woman.
Came to Jesus And she spoke to him And Jesus said to her.
We know.
That we worship.
But.
That we worship Jesus is saying For salvation.
Of the Jews Jews Worship.
Father Jews.
Did not worship.
Jesus and Holy Spirit. Ladies and gentlemen.
This is your Bible.
I'm quoting.
And this is addressed To the Christians In particular.
Jews.
Worship Father alone Book of John Chapter 8.
Where Jesus.
Acknowledged that divinity.
That he said.
To the Jews.
That this is the Father.
Whom you say Is God.
30 minutes.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you very much For listening to me.
I have Some.
Of my presentations. Which is.
Left.
And I will come.
And address that.
In my.
Propaganda.
Thank you very much.
For listening to me.
Peace be upon you.
We will now Before we continue We're going to take A 10 minute break.
For.
Changing the text.
It's something.
That has to be done.
To avoid that.
I neglected to mention In the introduction That fire regulations.
Require that I mention.
The two fire exits. There's one here. On my right.
Over there.
And the other exit. Is where you came. Into the building.
Which is.
In that way Over there.
Please remember.
To write down Your questions. For the question.
And answer session.
As well.
And finally There are toilets.
Downstairs.
Go back.
Through the way.
You came into the building. There's some stairs. Down through the hall.
And you'll see.
There are toilets. For ladies and gentlemen.
There.
So there will be A 10 minute break.
Now Paul.
I'm sorry We're just going to Have a 2 minute break.
We're going to go.
Immediately into.
This section.
Okay.
Just want to Go ahead and change.
We need to go.
To the toilet.
So can you put.
A name.
James White Or Adnan Rashid. On the written paper.
You're giving me.
Thank you. Okay Paul.
We're going to.
Continue the debate.
And I'd like to Introduce again Dr. James White.
Who will make.
His first speech.
Thank you.
It is indeed.
An honour to be With you this evening.
Here in London.
We've had a fine.
Crowd come out. And it is.
An invitingly.
Important subject.
That we are addressing I think it is a good thing.
That we as.
Christians and Muslims Can get together And have these kinds.
Of dialogues That demonstrate That both of us.
Believe in the truth We want to Proclaim the truth And I believe That as long as People are allowed To freely Give vent To their beliefs.
Then we will be.
Able to have These opportunities.
To continue speaking.
To one another.
It's when we stop. That freedom.
That people begin.
To fight. And I've just been.
Told to stop. Do you disagree brother?
Is that the problem? Please agree.
We'll start again.
Start again.
An honour to be.
With you here.
In this dialogue.
Together about What we believe.
We believe.
That God has spoken. It is important.
That we have.
The freedom.
To speak.
With one another.
And to speak.
About the very.
Heart and soul.
Of our faith.
The discussion.
This evening. Does belief.
In the trinity. Necessitate.
Shirk.
And you're going To see a number Of the very same.
Texts.
That were just.
Discussed.
Presented by myself. Because it is.
An important subject.
To what we have.
To do.
Is define Definitions.
We have to come.
Up with definitions. We need to understand. Exactly what is.
Going on. As we discuss.
The trinity. And shirk.
The only.
Meaningful way Of addressing This question Is by accurately Defining the terms That are being used In our discussion. Now I did find It somewhat interesting. I'm not sure That this may be The first debate.
Of them.
Eight debates.
Where my opponent Declared himself.
The victor.
Before I had A chance to speak That is an interesting.
Way of approaching it.
I leave that up to you. As to who defines.
The terms.
And who deals.
With the text.
In the best way.
So we do need.
Obviously to look at What is the doctrine Of the trinity. Secondly we do need To define very clearly What is the concept.
Of shirk.
What it means.
And third.
And of course.
Most importantly.
Does the Quran Accurately.
And correctly.
Identify the trinity When it condemns Excess in religion.
I was just told.
That I was.
Very wrong In my understanding. Well let's find out Let's find out As we look at These things Let's begin first and foremost With the doctrine Of the trinity itself I'd like to offer you A basic definition Within the one being That is God There exists eternally Three co-equal And co-eternal persons Namely the Father The Son And the Holy Spirit.
Now if you are.
Color challenged. You can't see the projector. And sometimes guys Can't see red. There are two words there That I have emphasized So that you can see. There are the words Being and person. These are not Synonymous words.
Every day.
We use these words In different ways. We recognize.
That a rock.
Has being But does not have person. If you can insult A rock all you want It's never going to take offense.
Try it. A lot of them.
Do it in public.
But being and person Are two different things. This is the distinction That must be understood. Being is what makes Something what it is. Person is what makes Someone who they are. We are all human beings But we are differentiated On the level of personhood.
While we may share A common existence As human beings We are differentiated From one another On the level of personhood. We make that kind of distinction. The Bible makes That kind of distinction In describing The one being of God And then describing Three persons As having divine attributes The divine name.
The name God.
When St. Hathaway. For example.
Is used a father.
Son.
And Holy Spirit In the scriptures. And that is where The doctrine of the Trinity Comes from. Now please understand The Trinity Is not saying That there are.
Three beings.
Who are one being Thomas Jefferson.
Of course.
An unbeliever.
Who cut the Bible up.
Didn't bother.
To actually find out What the doctrine was.
That he was mocking.
We are not saying.
That there are.
That are one being. As he might have thought.
We are not saying there are three persons who are one person. We're not saying one plus one plus one equals three. One being, eternal and unlimited, shared eternally by three divine persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You may not believe this, but obviously, if you're going to be a person of truth, then you need to accurately define it as it is understood historically by the Christian faith. Now, why do we believe this?
Some people will say, well, it's because the church told us. Or some people will say, it's because the council said so. I am a biblical Trinitarian. I believe all of Scripture. I believe only Scripture.
And when I believe all of Scripture and only Scripture, what I come to understand is the doctrine of the Trinity. There are three biblical foundations to the doctrine of the Trinity. Foundation one is absolute monotheism.
I appreciate that much of what Adnan said, we start quoting from the Old Testament. He misidentifies the term Father in the Old Testament, as if the Old Testament distinguishes between Father, Son, and Spirit.
It does not. But he quoted the very same text, Deuteronomy 435, that I use in debating Mormons all the time. Mormons are polytheists. They believe that there are many gods, literally an unlimited number of gods.
And so I've gone to Salt Lake City, I've gone to Utah, and defended biblical Christianity against Mormonism, because Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. We are monotheists. We believe there is only one true God Creator of Heaven and Earth.
That is the foundation of the doctrine of the Trinity. The second foundation revealed to us in all of Scripture is the existence of three divine persons. That is, the Father is not confused with the Son, the Son is not confused with the Spirit, the Spirit is not confused with the Father.
There are people who call themselves Christians who believe that. You may have run into Jesus-only Pentecostals, the oneness Pentecostal movement, that denies the doctrine of the Trinity and actually says that, in essence, Jesus was praying to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane.
That has been rejected by the Christian Church down through the centuries, and it certainly cannot be substantiated on the basis of the Bible. I've debated their representatives as well. The third foundation, then, is the co-equality and co-eternality of those persons.
That is, the evidence that demonstrates that the Father is truly God, the evidence that demonstrates that the Son, while distinguished from the Father, is described as the Creator of all things, is described as Yahweh, Old Testament pastors about Yahweh are applied to Jesus in the New Testament, Hebrews chapter 1, John chapter 12, etc., etc., and that the Spirit of Yahweh, the Spirit of God, is distinguished from the Father and the Son, and yet is described as God as well.
This is all revelation that takes place in the New Testament specifically. The doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the early church, and the New Testament then becomes the record of that revelation.
We need to understand, because there is confusion, the terms Father and Son are not physical terms when we use these terms of God. The Father is not married to anyone. The Son is not the result of a marriage.
He is not an offspring or anything along those lines. I have met many a Muslim who thought that that's exactly what it was that Christians believe. The relationship of the Father and the Son is timeless.
This is very important. Please hear me. When we speak of Father and Son as creatures, a Father always precedes the Son in existence. We are talking about an eternal relationship. There is not a time when the Son did not exist.
The Bible describes Him as having eternally existed. He is the creator of all things. The relationship of Father and Son is eternal. It does not come into existence at a point in time. For example, since we're in London, I thought it would be good to make reference to C .S. Lewis.
He used an analogy to describe this of two books. It just so happens I have some books sitting here. If you have one book sitting on top of another book, you can say that the book on top owes its position to the book on the bottom.
But if you take out the element of time, no longer can you say, well, obviously the bottom book was put there first. Don't you take the element of time out? And time is a function of creation. And God existed before there was anything else in His solitary glory.
Still, before time itself existed, the Father and the Son existed as Father and Son. It's a description of a relationship, not an origination. So the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is an eternal relationship.
It is timeless.
The Son did not become the Son at a particular point in time in the past. Now, it needs to be re-emphasized once again. The bedrock of monotheism defines the Trinity. It is the very foundation of our faith.
But this must be understood as well. Monotheism and Unitarianism are not the same things. And throughout Adnan's presentation, they were assumed to be the same things. I am a Trinitarian or Monotheist.
A Unitarian is a person who insists that the Being of God can only be shared by one person. That's a Unitarian. You can assert it all you want. That's not the same thing as proving it. I am a Monotheist who is a Trinitarian.
The Being of God is unlimited.
And why, therefore, can it not be shared by three divine persons? That becomes the question. If God's revelation is such that that is what the revelation teaches us, then that is what we should believe.
I am a Trinitarian Monotheist. I am not a Unitarian. You cannot just simply assume, well, Yahweh is Unitarian.
Why?
The New Testament writers didn't think so. They described, they used verses of the Father that identified Him as Yahweh. They used verses of the Son that identified Him as Yahweh. Were they just confused?
You might say they were, but that's what the Christian believes is what they reveal. You need to understand that if we're going to have a dialogue that is well-worded. The Trinity, of course, was well-known by AD 600.
The Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Chalcedon had clearly proclaimed the belief. The Athanasian Creed was well-known. Augustine had written entire volumes on the subject of the Trinity long before Muhammad.
And so, there's no question that at the time of the prophethood of Muhammad, you have a clear understanding of what the doctrine of the Trinity is. That's important because some people feel that maybe that just wasn't something that was understood.
Now, what about the Quran on the subject of Shirk? As was mentioned, the ruder term simply means to share or association. It continues to be used today to speak of business associations, corporations, etc. in the Arabic language and in secular usage in the Arabic language.
The ruder is used 168 times in the Quran. Not always about the subject of idolatry or anything like that. Let's look at some of the texts they were quoted to you before, and now you get to see them on the screen.
And for those who are not Muslims, that might be helpful to you to know what the Quran is saying. Surah 31, 13. Oh, my dear son, ascribe no partners unto Allah, lo, to ascribe partners unto Him is a tremendous wrong.
This is the concept of ascribing partners with Allah. The question we will have to ask tonight is, does the Quran tell us what kind of ascription of partnership this is? I think it very clearly does, as we will see.
Let's look at Surah 22, 31. Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him, if anyone assigns partners to Allah, it is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped like a bird out of spray and thrown him into a far place.
This is what happens to the person who commits shirk. This is the sin of idolatry. We also see this in Surah 6, 1. Praise be to Allah, who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light.
Yet those who reject faith hold others as equal with their guardian Lord. Hold others as equal with their guardian Lord. Please note the language that is used. Then notice this. I believe this text was also utilized, Surah 364.
Say, O people of the Book, come to common terms as between us and you, that we worship none but Allah, and we associate no partners with Him, that we erect not from among ourselves lords and patrons other than Allah.
Now what kind of association is this? Have we seen anything so far where the Qur 'an defines for us the doctrine of the Trinity as being one being of God shared by three persons? Is that anywhere in the Qur 'an?
This is what I want to ask. It says three. Three what? Here, the association is from among ourselves lords and patrons other than Allah. It has nothing to do with persons. It has nothing to do with Christians' belief, and was well known at this point in history, the doctrine of the Trinity is.
If they then turn back, say, bear witness that we at least are Muslims vowing to Allah's will. Or we also saw Surah 4 quoted. O ye people of the Book, believe in what we have now revealed, confirming what was already with you, before we change the face and think of some of you, beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as we curse the Sabbath-breakers.
For the decision of Allah must be carried out. Now notice what it said here. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with him, but he forgiveth anything else to whom he pleaseth. To set up partners with Allah is to revise the sin most heinous of deeds.
This is why Allah had to try to make the assertion. Oh, Allah is God the Father. Where does the Qur 'an say this? Where does the Qur 'an say this? Where does the Old Testament say this? The Old Testament does use the term Father of God, as the Creator.
It also uses it of Jesus, prophetically, in Isaiah chapter 9, when it says he's the Father of Time, the Eternal Father. The terms Father, Son, and Spirit are New Testament revelations. They're not Old Testament revelations.
So what is this description? It sounds to me like what the Qur 'an is saying, is saying you are not to ascribe gods with Allah.
Where's persons?
Where is the recognition that we believe there is only one true, eternal being of God? I'm sure that since Anab says that the Qur 'an correctly and knowledgably defines the Trinity, and since this was Balaam at that time, that he will show us exactly where this three doesn't cut it.
That could be three gods, and as we're going to see, that's exactly what it is. Notice, for example, Surah 16, verse 41. Or have they some partners in Allah that let them produce their partners if they are truthful?
Produce them?
You mean like the pagan deities, the idols that the people in Mecca were worshipping? Things like that? Maybe that's exactly what it's talking about. Surah chapter 4, verses 171, 172. Well, people of the Book commit no excesses in your religion.
Nor say of Allah a truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle of Allah. And his word, which he bestowed on Mary, had a spirit proceeding from him. So believe in Allah and his apostles.
Then it says, say not Trinity. And as Adam was correctly pointing out, it's literally the word three. It's not the word Trinity specifically. Desist, it would be better for you. For Allah is one Allah.
One person? Unitarian? What?
One Allah.
Glory be to him. For exalted is he above having a son. Having a son? That sounds like the writer of these words thinks that Christians believe that God got married and had a child. Well, certainly that's not what Christians believe.
And yet that seemingly is what's being said. To him belong all things in heaven and on earth. And of his Allah's and his foes and affairs. Christ is not to certain worship Allah. Nor to the angels those heirs to Allah.
Those who disdain his worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto himself.
To answer.
How about surah 5, 17 -78. They do blaspheme who say, Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. But said Christ, when children of Israel worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I mentioned in passage. Many times I heard Muslims say, well we can't trust what the Gospels say about Jesus.
Because they were written by eyewitnesses. How they know that is another issue. And yet here we have words removed by 600 years. Without any intervening historical foundation. And yet the same people will accept them as being absolutely accurate.
We need to have one standard for these things. Not one standard for the Muslim, but one standard for the Christian. We need to apply the same standard all the way across. Whoever joins, please note this, other gods with Allah.
Whoever, this is in the context of Jesus. This is in the context of the three. Whoever joins other gods with Allah. Allah will forbid him to guard the fire that he is above. Does the doctrine of the Trinity associate other gods with Allah?
No.
It says Allah is the only true God. And that God exists eternally. As Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The wrongdoers need no one to help. They do blaspheme who say, Allah is one of three in the Trinity. Who says that?
Christians never said that. Christians never made the identification that Adnan has made. That Allah has to be God the Father. Where does the Quran say that? Where does the Bible say that?
It doesn't.
And so where have Christians never said Allah is one of three in the Trinity? Could it be that the Quran is actually saying the Trinity is Allah, Jesus and Mary?
We'll find out.
Allah is one of three in the Trinity. For there is no god except one, Allah. Is this not what shirk is? These texts were quoted before as defining what shirk is. Shirk is the association of multiple gods with Allah, something else with Allah.
It has nothing to do with what the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is. It continues on. If they desist not from their word of blasphemy, please notice the description of blasphemy. Verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.
Why turn they not to Allah and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is all-forgiving, most merciful. Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than an apostle. Many were the apostles who passed away before him.
His mother was a woman of truth.
Why mention that?
Why mention that his mother was a woman of truth unless the author actually has the idea that somehow she is being elevated to the status of a god? That certainly would explain the rest of this because it said they had both to eat their daily food.
See how Allah is making signs clear to them. Yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth. Say, will you worship besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you?
But Allah he is that heareth and knoweth all things. It seems very clear to me. The whole idea is, the apologetic argument drawn at this point, is that Jesus and Mary, since they ate food, can't be god.
Denying the possibility of incarnation for Jesus, but why include Mary? Why even make mention of her? Unless the idea assured in the Quran is the association of God himself with Allah. Continuing on. Say, O people of the book, it seemed not in your religion to balance what was proper trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many and strayed themselves from the even way.
Notice what it says now. Curses were pronounced on those among the children of Israel, who rejected faith by the tongue of David and Jesus son of Mary, because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.
Blasphemy, curses, hellfire. These are the words of the Quran. So are we out of line to ask, no in fact demand, that the Quran be specific, clear, and accurate in what it's identifying as error, that will damn one's soul?
And if the Quran is condemning polytheism, the creation of other gods, and the trinity insists that the distinctions that it defines are not external, not a violation of monotheism, then where is the chronic condemnation of the historical doctrine of the trinity?
That is my question for you this evening. The text continues on. Behold, Allah will say. Here is, I think, the key text. O Jesus, the son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah?
What Christian has ever said that? Oh I know, some people said, well there was this small group out in the desert in Arabia once, that deified Mary or something. Well if you're going to say that what the Quran is talking about is some group which none have survived, fine, that means it doesn't address the doctrine of the trinity.
But if you're going to say it addresses the doctrine of the trinity, what's it talking about here? Is this what the Quran understands as the trinity? Did you say unto men, Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah?
Is this not clearly defining Shirk as the association of gods with Allah? Now, if this is the trinity, then the author of the Quran did not understand the trinity. And whether you accept the trinity or not, isn't it rather obvious that in AD 600 even Allah knew what the trinity was?
If these are his words, then they would accurately represent the trinity, right? That would seem to be the case. Now, we are told that Jesus will respond, Glory to thee, never did I say what I had no right to say.
Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in thine, for thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Obviously the writer of this had never read Matthew 11, 27, where Jesus said just the opposite of that.
But that's another issue for another time. Continues on to say, Never said I to them, ought, except what thou didst command me to say, to win worship of Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them, whilst I was with them.
When thou didst take me up, thou wast a watcher over them, and thou art a witness to all things. So, the question this evening is, where's the shirk? Where's the shirk? The Quran never does give an accurate, meaningful definition of the trinity when it condemns belief in three.
Not once, we haven't seen one. Anand says, well, you just gotta study your Quran more. I quoted every text he did. And it never gives a definition of the trinity. If I, if I had a, I've debated many people.
Debated Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses, and atheists, and liberals, and so on and so forth. And if I debate the doctrine of the trinity, I at least expect that the other person is going to define it correctly.
When I debate Muslims, if I'm going to talk about Tawheed, I'm going to talk about Tawheed the way you define it, not the way I'd like to define it. We gotta start with some common language, do we not?
And so where's that definition? Three what? Certified? Three gods? Where's the discussion of monotheism? Where's the recognition? You say that there is but one God, but you distinguish on the Unitarian and Trinitarian level, and here's where you're wrong.
It's not there. Where is the evidence that the author of the Quran understood the very doctrine that he condemned men to hellfire for believing? Where is it? We haven't seen it so far. Hopefully we'll see it in the next 15 minutes.
The Quran clearly refers to polytheism, possibly even viewing the trinity as the law, Mary, and Jesus. Which of course has never been the doctrine of the trinity in any way, shape, or form. And while the Quran uses terms like blasphemy, unbelief, curses, excess, and hellfire, it never shows the slightest understanding of the centrality of monotheism to the established doctrine of the trinity that was well known at the beginning of the 7th century.
If the description is meant to address the trinity, then the author of the Quran was ignorant of the truth about what Christians had believed literally for centuries at that point in time. And if it is not, then where is the economic basis for identifying the true doctrine of the trinity as sure?
Now, Adnan has raised all sorts of issues in his opening presentation. I will have more time to address them in my remodel. But he specifically raised all sorts of issues that would be more properly in a debate on the doctrine of the trinity.
And in fact, in two days, I will be debating another Islamic pathologist on the subject of the deity of Christ, which of course is a subset of that great argument on the doctrine of the trinity. And I will be glad to address the many texts that were presented at that time.
We're not here to debate the trinity. I'll respond to what has been presented because I don't want anyone to be confused. There are answers to everything that has been presented. Especially when you understand that father in the Old Testament is not a distinction between father, son, and spirit.
Father simply means creator. Even the text he read, that's the way it's being used. And if you try to make it that, then even Jesus described his father in Isaiah chapter 9. He was called the everlasting father, prince of peace, mighty God.
That's not the Old Testament definition of father. So we can leave that to the side. Secondly, he seems to assume Unitarianism for Yahweh. Yet Yahweh uses plural nouns in himself and Yahweh is used as father, son, and spirit in the New Testament.
The question tonight simply is this. Islam comes after my faith. I know you believe that Jesus and all of the prophets were Muslims and so on and so forth. But the historical fact is that the defining document of the Islamic faith comes after my faith and its books.
My New Testament existed long before the time of God. I know exactly what the New Testament looked like in the days of Muhammad. We have that evidence, there's no question. And my faith had struggled with divisions, just as Islam had divisions and continues to have divisions to this day.
And in the year 600, just using that as a good number, it was clearly known what the doctrine of the Trinity was.
Here's my thesis for you.
If, as Ahmad has said, and I've actually talked to a couple of Muslims who said, no, the Qur 'an never addresses the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. But they seem to be in this line. I've talked to Imams, I've tried to allow Muslims to define their own faith.
It seems to me that I'm not in a safe position. Yes, the Qur 'an is specifically addressing the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. That seems to be how I understand it. If that is the case, then the result is that the Qur 'an demonstrates ignorance on the part of its author.
Therefore, it can't be proved.
Because even if you reject the Trinity, in the year 600, God knew what it was. God knew what Christ Jesus and Mary as God separate from Allah. So that's the question we have to answer this evening. The whole reason that I asked for this particular subject, was because over and over again the issue directly, it was just assumed separate from one another.
The text we do, and so if the Qur 'an, and the thesis of our, thank you very much for this.
Speaking of the Holy, will be James. After that there will be another change.
Alhamdulillah, wa salatu wa salamu ala Rasulullah Mubarak.
Ladies and gentlemen, congratulations. Dr. James White, failed to address the issue for the whole half an hour. The issue. Dr. White, belief in Trinity necessitates shirk.
You failed to address the issue.
You are giving us the definition or commentary of the Qur 'an rather than. So, I have already substantiated in my presentation, that doctrine of Trinity is definitely shirk,.
Because Jesus says,.
That if you ascribe partners with Allah, it says that Allah is God the Father. God the Father. Why do I say that, Dr. White? Same verses which you read yourself. If you read them carefully,.
Chapter 5 of the Qur 'an,.
It states,.
Said the Messiah,.
Said that,.
Jesus said that.
Ladies and gentlemen,.
In the book of Mark,.
Chapter 12, 29. The Shema formula of the book of Genesis. And Jews did not know any other God but the Father. For salvation is for them.
Listen carefully,.
God and the Spirit.
And they were in spirit. So, Father is the one whom Jesus is referring to, to be worshipped. So, Father is the one to be worshipped. Chapter 5, verse 72. The Father is the God.
And he said, worship Him.
He is our God.
And that is the Father. That's why I said,.
That's why I said,.
The Father, the God which is being referred to in the Qur 'an. Which is clearly stated. The Mary is to be worshipped.
For worshipping Him.
The verse, chapter 5.
Look at the word.
Did you tell people, instead of Allah, as to be worshipped. Deity is to be worshipped. In this verse, the word, it is your speculation.
Instead of Allah.
I translated, the chapter 5, verse 72.
Stating,.
That do not take any God beside Allah. It doesn't say that, ladies and gentlemen. It says, do not describe partners with God. It doesn't mention, do not take other gods beside Allah. It doesn't say that.
So, you got the translation wrong, Dr. Wai. Change of Qur 'an.
Translation.
Father is Allah in the Qur 'an.
Talking about being.
Qur 'an doesn't have to talk about being. One being, three persons. Qur 'an is not a book of Christian theology. Ladies and gentlemen, Qur 'an is a book of law.
It's a revealed,.
Divinely revealed text. Which is telling us, giving us formulas.
Universal formulas.
Absolutely correct when it tells us,.
Do not say three. The Christians say three.
In one tri-unity. Himself as Yahweh. The son is identifying himself as Yahweh.
Who is Yahweh?
Yahweh is called the chronicles. Is to exist itself.
Is identifying himself.
As Yahweh.
Who said that Jesus, son of Mary,.
Is taking me and my mother as God.
It doesn't mention trinity. And he's already acknowledged in his.
Articles that Mary is worshipped by the Catholics. Who are the Christians.
So,.
Dr. Wai mentioned, clearly states that trinity is shared. Only God.
There's no one beside Him.
Or the Qur 'an.
Or,.
I must ask Him.
I am the son of God.
And my father is the God of the Jews.
But my father,.
Jesus says that you are close to the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus himself is a staunch monotheist.
Polytheist.
Polytheistically monotheist.
If they are polytheists,.
To understand what I said.
Book of John, chapter 17, verse 1 to 3.
These words spake Jesus and lifted up His eyes to Heaven.
And said,.
Father,.
The hour has come.
Glorify Thy Son,.
That Thy Son may also glorify Thee, as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given. Thou hast given. And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee.
Separating himself from the only true God. This is your Bible. How did you get that?
Founder,.
Britannic philosopher. In the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century. The Trinity was known properly. In the 6th century,.
What was they believing in?
Year 86 of Islam.
76 years after Prophet Muhammad died. And he's got the entire Creed of Islam written. There is only one God. And there is no partner beside Him.
So, ladies and gentlemen, Saint Augustine,.
As Dr. White brought him up, John 17, 1 to 3, where Jesus says, Father is the only true God. Saint Augustine had a problem with this.
He had a problem with this.
This is claimed. This is how our Trinity was. Jesus Christ,.
Before He says,.
The only true God.
Jesus said, Father is the only true God. Despite his insistence on the deal,.
Men admits.
There are Thomas,.
Aretius,.
And several others who claim John 73.
As if the language were.
That they may know.
You and Jesus Christ.
As the only true God.
So, Christians themselves are distorting the text of Bible.
1 John 5, 7,.
John in comma.
It's well-known distortion. It was an addition in the Bible.
Which was made later in 4th century to substantiate the doctrine of Trinity.
You know that. There are three documents.
One.
So, ladies and gentlemen,.
Dr. James White,.
He said that.
When Jalal said that Constantine was the one.
Who forced the Trinity upon other people. Dr. James White fiercely.
Objected.
He said,.
That is not true.
Read the history of.
Council of Nicaea. It will tell you.
How Trinity was made. Aretius was a man who believed that the Son had a beginning.
Therefore,.
He was not a son.
When he said that Aretius had been truly a God.
So, so,.
In the Council of Nicaea,.
That the doctrine of.
He was in fact.
Enforcing.
The doctrine.
Not Trinity.
Which was enforced by Nicaea which is very well known by Dr. James White himself from the substance of the Father.
God from God.
Was added by Constantine himself, a pagan emperor. It is still debated.
Whether Constantine was a Christian at that time or not.
A pagan emperor added a text.
Within the Creed of Nicaea,.
The Christian,.
Christian Creed.
A pagan emperor.
Added this text.
From the substance.
Of the Father. And I won't say that. J. N. D. Kelly says that.
Whom?
Dr. White accepts as an authority.
Begotten, not made,.
Of one substance.
With the Father.
Through whom.
All things came into being, things in heaven.
And things on earth.
Would become us men.
And because of.
Our salvation came down and became.
Incarnate. Becoming man.
Suffered.
And rose again.
On the third day ascended to the heavens.
And will come.
To judge the living.
And the dead.
And in the Holy Spirit. And we believe.
In the Holy Spirit. What is Holy Spirit?
God. Man. Creed.
Nothing stated.
In the Creed of Nicaea.
So Constantine.
Enforced.
The doctrine of binary,.
Not trinitarian.
Was not a trinitarian. Thank you very much.
Anyone familiar.
With history.
Knows the fact that those.
Who came to.
Council of Nicaea.
Were those.
Who had survived the greatest.
Form of persecution from the Roman state in the preceding three decades before that time.
There were people.
There without limbs, without eyes.
Scars.
Were from their bodies because they refused to abandon.
The faith.
In Jesus Christ.
Are you seriously going to tell me.
That only 13 years later.
They're going to allow.
A pagan to come in and change their faith?
And they're going to go,.
Oh, sounds good to me.
Historic history.
Tells.
J. N. D. Keller does not say that, by the way.
That is a misreading even of J. N. D. Keller. The term was used.
To identify.
Exactly what was being said against the Arians. I never said that Doctrine of Trinity only became known.
Six centuries.
After the time of Christ.
I said that six centuries.
It was well known. It was believed in from the beginning. Read the writings of Ignatius,.
The bishop,.
Martyr bishop of Antioch as he was going to Rome wherein he writes seven letters and over ten times.
In those letters.
Identifies Jesus Christ as his God.
Look at the.
Archaeological find in the past two years.
In Israel where they have.
Discovered.
One of the earliest Christian churches and in the mosaic on the floor in memory of our God Jesus Christ. It is simply historically naive and utterly inaccurate to say anything other than that. But I want to remind you about why we are here this evening.
We just had.
Fifteen minutes. I was told that I didn't address.
Any of those texts.
But you know what? I think I can allow.
You the audience.
To find out whether I did or didn't. You can make that.
Judgment for yourself.
But in fifteen minutes did we hear anything.
From the Koran.
That addressed.
The issue.
Of being in person?
Did we hear anything from the Koran.
That said that we recognize there is but one God?
We were told,.
Oh, Surah 5 is not about the Trinity.
Oh, okay.
But how do you know any of the other ones are about the Trinity? It's talking about worshiping Jesus. Who is it about?
Who did Muhammad.
Run into.
That is relevant for Surah 5, 116 through 17. Where you're reeling?
Who?
Hopefully we'll find out.
This evening. I'm on a group.
That the Bible teaches.
That the Father.
Is to be worshipped.
All Christians believe exactly that. He then assumes.
Unitarianism.
And ignores.
The rest of the.
Testimony of the New Testament. I'd like to show you where Adnan has done this.
Do you remember.
When he quoted from John chapter 8.
Verse 54?
He quoted John 8.
Jesus replied, if I glorify myself my glory is worthless. The one who glorifies me and by the way the Old Testament says only God is to be glorified. The one who glorifies me is my Father.
About whom you people.
Say he is our God but oh see, see.
That means.
Only the Father in the Old Testament.
If I treated the Quran in that way ignoring what comes.
Before and after.
And what was going on. You'd have reason to be upset with me because what is the rest of John. Chapter 8.
About?
What's about to happen? Jesus has said.
Just before this unless you believe that ego-i-me-I-am that a name used.
Of Yahweh.
In the Old Testament especially in regards.
To prophecy.
In Isaiah 43 .10 unless you believe that I-am you will die your sins.
Do you believe that Jesus died? Jesus said unless you do you will die your sins. He had said that.
The Jews said who do you make.
Yourself out to be? Jesus starts talking about the unity that exists between.
He and the Father.
The Father's testimony.
To him.
And within.
A matter of two or three sentences from the text.
That Adnan quoted in the Old Testament.
Verse 55. Yet you do not know him but I know him.
If I were to say that I do not know him I would be a liar like you.
But I do know him and I obey his teaching. Your father Abraham was overjoyed.
To see my day.
And he saw it.
And was glad Adnan when did.
Abraham see.
The day of Jesus?
Then the Judeans replied you are not yet fifty years old.
Have you seen.
Abraham?
Jesus said there.
I tell you the.
Solid truth truly truly.
I say it's true.
Before Abraham.
Came into existence ego-i-me-I-am. And you know what the Jews did?
They picked up.
Stones to stone because they knew exactly what.
He was claiming they knew.
The name of their God.
They knew.
He was claiming.
Timeless existence.
To exist before.
Abraham.
He had already said.
Anyone who.
Keeps my word will never taste death.
No mere.
School.
No mere prophet.
Ever said things.
That Jesus said so if you're going to accept John 8 54 as being accurate.
You've got to accept.
John 8 58 too and it testifies.
Clearly to the.
Deity of Christ.
Because Yahweh.
Is identified by those words in the Old Testament but that does not make him the Father I clearly said in my opening statement we distinguish clearly between the Father, Son,.
Because the Bible does but the fact that the Bible taken as a whole.
Uses that.
One divine name of Father, Son, and Spirit is the reason.
We are biblical.
Trinitarians.
The one name refers to the being of God. Three persons share it.
That's what.
The doctrine of the Trinity is all about.
Then we have.
John chapter 17.
He said.
Well you quoted Augustine.
All I quoted Augustine for.
Was to point out the rather obvious fact.
That there had.
Already been.
Great discussions of the doctrine of the Trinity. There wasn't some mysterious thing in the 6th century for hundreds of years an accurate doctrine of the Trinity was available if Adnan could stand up here and use terms.
Like homo gusias and lupus docis.
Why couldn't God?
If he could if you want to.
Talk to the Christians.
Why not use their language?
Because the writer.
Of the Quran.
Had never read.
The Bible.
That's why.
Wasn't aware of these things that's why.
He wants to assume this.
But in a debate you have to prove it not just assert it. So where are the canonic texts that demonstrate accurate knowledge of the doctrine.
Of the Trinity.
We haven't heard it yet and now both of us.
Are getting to have.
You have 45 minutes worth of your time.
The Bible tells us.
That Christ did not consider the equality he had with the Father.
Something to be held onto at all costs.
But he laid that equality aside voluntarily made himself of no reputation.
Became obedient.
To the point of death even death on the cross and because of that.
God the Father.
Highly exalted him and gave him a name which is above every name that the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess all the glory.
Of God the Father.
That was the primitive belief of the Christians.
That's not something.
That Constantine.
Came up with.
That is a hymn of the early church.
And here in.
He stopped.
Before he should have because he did mention of course.
The fact that.
There is only.
One true God.
There is only one true God.
But then what else did he say.
Have you ever.
Written on that.
Those of you who have used this text.
Did you ever.
Go into.
Verses 4.
And following listen to what it says.
I glorify you.
On earth.
By completing.
The work.
You gave me.
Now listen to this my friends.
My Muslim friends look me in the eye and tell me that a resul.
Or a prophet.
Could ever.
Say these words.
And now Father.
Glorify me.
At your side with the glory I had with you before the world.
Was created.
Moses ever.
Said that.
Did David.
Ever say that.
Jesus says glorify me.
What does the book of Isaiah.
Say.
Glory only he is to be glorified only he is.
To be glory the standard.
Approach.
Is to deny but isn't it.
To quote a number.
Of texts.
If they have.
Come down.
Most accurately and they are the very same papyri manuscripts of the second.
Century.
That all the rest.
Of this is in.
Then Jesus.
Said these words.
And you need.
To explain.
To me.
What did Jesus.
Mean.
How can Jesus.
Say this.
How can verse 3 even say the eternal life is to know.
Two persons.
Can you imagine.
Moses saying that.
This is the.
Eternal life.
That you know.
Moses.
No we.
Instinctively know that no mere creature.
Human being.
Can say.
Remember the.
Garden where the.
Soldiers were.
Coming to take.
Jesus.
He says who are you seeking.
They say.
Jesus in Nazareth and Jesus.
Says.
Echo. I am.
Here.
The gospel of.
John tells us they fell the soldiers.
Fall back upon.
Someone simply.
When Jesus.
Rises from the.
Dead.
Thomas the.
Apostle.
Invites him to touch him.
To see that it is truly.
Him the.
Spirit has.
Not flesh and.
Bones to see me and he my Lord and my God.
Now Jesus.
Was just an apostle.
Is just a result.
Of the law.
And someone.
Bows down.
Before you.
And says.
My Lord.
And my.
God.
What is your.
Duty.
Don't.
Do that.
When people.
Try to bow.
Down and.
Worship the apostles.
What do they.
Say don't.
Worship only.
When John.
Tried to bow.
Worship the.
Angels.
What does.
He do.
Don't do.
Thomas bows.
Down before.
As my.
Lord and my God and Thomas is just.
Result.
Of the law do. They don't do that. Worship only God.
Duty don't do that. Worship only God and my Lord.
For the book of Daniel, who is worshipped by his followers, the ancient one. He's worshipped, and he accepts the worship of those.
Who bow down before him.
So tonight's debate is not supposed to be about that particular issue. But I've not spent most of his time addressing that particular issue, all right? Be glad to respond. Because the main question of tonight's debate has yet to be answered.
We know what the doctrine of Trinity is. It starts with the assertion of the Shema. Shema Yisrael, Yahweh Elohim, Yahweh Echad. One God, Echad, the very same term that you have in Surah 112.
Is it not?
That's where we started. At least if God's being is so infinite, so unlimited, then it can, in divine revelation, be shared by three divine persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. We associate no one with the being of God.
We do not divide our worship.
Simple fact of the matter is,.
The scriptures that existed, that your own Koran says were Natzal, they were sent down by God. Those scriptures, which the author of the Koran does not seem to show any familiarity with, taught these things long before Muhammad came along.
And I say to you, the Koran has not been shown this evening to accurately identify the doctrine of Trinity. And if you want to say, well, when it says three, you know, even though it says three elsewhere, and you have the Law of Mary and Jesus in Surah 5, that's not really the Trinity.
He's not talking about that.
Okay, fine.
Tell us who that's talking about, first of all. What religious group is that talking about? And then secondly, show us where in the Koran the doctrine of the Trinity, which distinguishes between being and person, and that was known hundreds of years before him, is stated and condemned.
Where is it?
Once we've been able to do that, then the debate will be closed.
Dr. White, there will be several minutes. Then there's going to be a Q &A session for approximately 30 minutes. And if there are any more questions and answers on the written form, please bring them up.
I've got two piles here for two different speakers. Please address the question to the speaker and not leave it open like that. At the end of the 30-minute Q &A session, each speaker will have a five-minute.
No, you can take it and give it to us.
Summing up.
So now there'll be a short transmission.
And then the other person will have one minute.
To respond to that. The first question is to James. The question says, please provide evidence from the Bible where it says that the Holy Ghost is God, only from the Bible. That's the first question for James.
Well, very briefly, I have written a book called The Forgotten Trinity that addresses all these issues. If you all would like to obtain that, or I'm not sure what to do with this, brother,.
But your microphone just fell off of the thing.
Do you want to start this all over again?
I'm sorry.
All right.
Let's try that again.
I've written a book called The Forgotten Trinity that addresses all of these issues, provides a biblical defense of the doctrine of the Trinity. There is an entire chapter on the subject of the Holy Spirit.
If you look at the utilization of terminology in regards to the Holy Spirit of God, first you have to identify the fact that he is seen to be a person, not just an it. That he speaks, that he wills, for example, he gives the gifts to the people of the church as he wills in 1 Corinthians chapter 12.
But his identity as God, for example, is seen in Acts chapter five,.
When it is said,.
When Ananias and Sapphira and the situation with the apostles develop, that in reference to lying to the Holy Spirit,.
It is then said,.
You have not lied to men but to God. And so it is not only the ascription of that term, God, to the Spirit, but also the fact that the Spirit is always used in Trinitarian formula with the Father and the Son.
The fellowship of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Is with us.
There are numerous texts in the New Testament where Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are associated in a way that you would never associate merely a law, a creature, and depending on which belief the Holy Spirit is, most Muslims, I don't think it's an angel, in the way that the New Testament does this.
Remember, the New Testament is the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Remember what I said before, the doctrine of the Trinity revealed in the incarnation of the Son and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
The disciples were experiential Trinitarians.
Think of Peter.
He stood on the Mount of Transfiguration. He heard the Father speak. He was with the Son. He was now built by the Holy Spirit. He was an experiential Trinitarian, and therefore, his language, Paul's language, the other disciples' language recognizes this when they speak of Father, Son, and Spirit in the way that they do, demonstrating the beauty of the Spirit.
Bismillah.
Dr. James Wyatt, obviously, didn't address the question, where is the passage in the Bible.
Which tells us the Holy Spirit is God?
I'll give you the passage, which the Christians generally use. I'll help Dr. James Wyatt.
Matthew 28, 19.
Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father.
And of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Because three persons are mentioned in this verse, the Christians assume the Holy Spirit is also God.
Now, there is another Trinity,.
Or Trinitarian formula in the Bible. Luke 9, 26. If that is the case, if you forward this passage to substantiate the divinity of Holy Spirit.
And there are other divinities.
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of Man be ashamed, when he shall come in his glory and in his Father's and of the holy angels.
Angels are also God.
1 Timothy 5, 21. I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels.
Next question is for Anne again. How did Jesus speak in the Quran, seeing it was written several centuries after the Bible? Whose witness or eyewitness account is this?
Two minutes to go, I want to be clear.
How did Jesus speak in the Quran, because Jesus was quoted as speaking in the Quran, seeing the Quran was written several centuries after the New Testament, the Bible? The question then asks, whose witness or eyewitness account is this?
Okay, first of all, ladies and gentlemen, question is, the question asked, how did Jesus speak in the Quran is simple. It's a revelation from God. God is telling us what Jesus said. Jesus said, all people of Israel worship one God, my God and your God.
So Quran is simply telling us that Jesus said that in the past. In 33 CE, when he disappeared or just before that,.
In his ministry, these are the words he uttered.
And we believe as Muslims that Quran is the word of God based upon foreign evidence. We have other reasons to believe that Quran is definitely the word of God because of historical accuracy, prophecies are fulfilled.
So for this reason, why does Quran tell us we believe it to be true? And Quran is simply telling us that Jesus spoke. And he said this, and the Quran also tells us that in future, on the day of judgment, Allah will ask Jesus, God Almighty will ask Jesus, did you tell these people or your tribe or your nation to take me and my mother as gods or deities or to be worshiped beside or instead of Allah?
So I say again, the word trinity is not mentioned.
In this verse.
Dr. David White, you worship Jesus as God. He wouldn't deny that. Catholics worship Mary as a divine person. And the council of Chalcedon in 451, Mary was given the title of Theotokos.
I don't know whether you agree with that or not.
You did write an article on your website on the definition of Chalcedon. If you accept some part of Chalcedon and reject the other, why would you like to address that?
I do not worship Mary as a deity. My criticism from Catholic Church has been the fact that they differentiate between Latrine and Julian. I do not view that as a biblical definition distinction. In answer to the question, there are only 25 ayah in the Quran that mention it in Isa.
It has been well said by a liberal Muslim that the Jesus of the Quran is an argument, not a person. Only once does the Jesus of the Quran speak in an identifiable historical context that is from the cradle that was borrowed from a second century Proto-Gnostic gospel.
There simply is no historical foundation. Interestingly, that Proto-Gnostic gospel actually had Jesus A. and I as the son of God. But there simply is no historical foundation to the words that are placed in Jesus' mouth by the Quran.
There is no evidence that goes between 600 and the time of Christ that he ever said those words. You simply have to believe them, well, because you begin with the belief in the Quran.
This is addressed to Dr. White again. In Surah 5, verse 72, Jesus says, children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord, and your Lord. Jesus uses similar words in the Bible in John 20, 17. I go to my father and your father, my God and your God.
The question is, does God, Jesus in brackets, have a God? Two minutes.
John chapter one, verse 14 says that the word which had been described in the preceding verses as eternal and the creator of all things became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. Let me please ask my Muslim friends to think for just a moment.
If you do not just start with the rejection.
Of the idea of the incarnation,.
If you don't just start saying no, Allah could not enter his own creation.
That's a question only you can answer. If you don't start with that, let me ask you a question. If Allah entered into his own creation, would he be an atheist? Would the incarnate one be an atheist? Or would he not be the perfect human being?
And what would the perfect human being look like? What would he be like? Would he acknowledge the father? It's not the father who became incarnate. The spirit became incarnate, it's the son. Would he not pray?
There's been perfect communion between the father and the son.
Throughout eternity.
Would that just stop?
Would he not worship? If the second person, the triune God, had entered into human flesh, he is going to be the perfect worshiper. He is going to acknowledge the father. He is going to be the monotheist.
He is going to pray. He is going to be all the things that we should be because he also becomes our example. So yes, Jesus is the God-man. To this day, he continues to be the God-man. He didn't just get rid of his body some place.
His resurrection is the great hope that we as believers have that we will be resurrected. And that's a true resurrection. So he is the God-man. And as such, as the God-man, he worshipped God. He acknowledged the father.
No question about that, but we still have to deal with the fact that he and his followers identified him as Yahweh. That is the issue.
Ladies and gentlemen, the question has already been addressed extensively that Jesus does have a God. And he clearly says to us. I don't know why the Christians to this day deny this because they really want to make Jesus a God.
But Jesus had a God.
He was not a God.
He had a God. And the verses are very clear. John 17, one, two, three, where Jesus claims him. The father is the only true God. In John 4, 21, he states that the Jews are of the salvation. Or the salvation is of the Jews because they worship the father in spirit.
That is the reason for their salvation.
Jesus gives the clear reason.
So what more do you need?
In John 8, 54, Jesus said that father is the God of the Jews. And in 12, 29, our scribe comes to him, asks him about the commandment. My time is over.
Next question is for Adnan again. The Mutezzilites were declared heretical for believing that the Quran is not eternal. But the Quran itself claims to be eternal since it is understood as eternal tablets.
Aren't you committing shirk by believing in two eternal entities, Allah and the Quran, or eternal tablets?
That is a very good question. Whoever asked this question. The question is that Mutezzilites believe the Quran is a creation, a book. Guess what, ladies and gentlemen? Mutezzilites were wrong. Because the Islamic doctrine of Quran is that Quran is the word of God.
So was Jesus.
What does Quran mean by this?
In chapter two, verse number 116, Allah says, when Allah wants something to be, He says, khun, for your khun. He says, be, and it is. Likewise, in chapter three, verse 59, God says, God Almighty in the Quran, He says,.
The simile shield of Jesus is like.
That of Adam.
When He wanted him to be, He said, be, and Jesus was. So Jesus was a word of God in this sense, and Quran is the word of God in this sense. Quran existed with God, not as a separate entity,.
But the Quran is the knowledge of God.
So we believe God was not ignorant at one time and He gained knowledge later on. God was knowledgeable from the day.
He existed and God is eternal.
So is His knowledge.
So Quran is the knowledge of God. And the Musaf, the book we have in Quran, is the manifestation of that knowledge. So we're simply saying that God's knowledge.
Is eternal with Him.
God is not ignorant at one time.
And He becomes learned the other.
So that is the point and that's one of the...
...later subject. The idea that the Quran is eternal strikes me as somewhat difficult. And the reason is not because of the internal discussions that you might have within Islam. But as I read the Quran as an outsider, I encounter much in the Quran that seems to be very much connected to changing vicissitudes in the life of Muhammad.
The situation, for example, where he sees Zaynab and the divorce issue with them. And because of that divorce, in essence, the destruction of adoption in Islamic law. Strikes me that that seems to be a difficult thing to understand in light of the idea that this Quran actually exists in an eternal sense.
From an outsider, I think that's something that possibly the Muslims might want to address a little bit more as they seek to present their understanding.
Dr. White, a slightly more academic question. My question is about hedontheism. In Judges 11 and 24, we read that Yahweh gave some land to the Israelites. But the same verse also says that another God, Shemosh, gave some other land to the Ammonite people.
Since the Bible declares that there is only one God, how could Shemosh even exist to give land to his worshippers?
Judges chapter 11, verse 24. Will you not possess what Shemosh, your God, gives you to possess? And although the Lord, our God, is dispossessed before us, we will possess. Obviously, this is in making reference to the pagan gods around the nation of Israel.
And the Bible recognizes the existence of pagan gods, not that they have a real existence. Psalm 965 says, all the gods and peoples are idols, but Yahweh made the heavens. The constant danger to the people of Israel was to engage in hedontheism, the acknowledgement of one primary God with the acknowledgement of lesser gods, and idolatry, we know that God brought judgment against the people of Israel over and over and over again for doing exactly that, for mixing the worship of Yahweh with the worship of these other gods.
We need to realize that. And I think the Muslims understand this. The Jewish claim in the Old Testament was a radical thing. The people around whom they lived believed in, in essence, local deities. Well, our God makes our crops grow, and your God can make your crops grow.
Our God, basically, is only worried about this particular valley. And that was the viewpoint of people in that day. The Jews were seen as hateful individuals,.
Because they came along and said,.
No, our God's only God in fact. Your God doesn't exist. And people didn't appreciate that. That was not overly politically correct then. Same thing that the Christians did in saying to the very religious Romans and Greeks, you may have all your gods, but they don't exist.
Only our God exists, and we will not worship Caesar as Lord. We will not say, we will not offer a pinch of incense to say Kaiser Kurios. We will only say Jesus Kurios, Jesus is Lord. And so while that emphasis upon monotheism is there, even the Apostle Paul says that there are many so-called gods and lords out there, but for us, there is but one God, and he describes that one God as the Corinthians.
So, yeah, that's my portion of it.
Thank you, Paul.
That is not the only problem.
The passage in Genesis is not the only problem. There are other passages where there are other gods, and this is a problem that Christians and Jews, they have to solve this problem. As the Bible stands today, we do not believe to be the word of God.
We believe there are passages which are inspired by God, but there are other passages which are not from God. For example, Exodus 7 -1, Moses is called Elohim. 1 Samuel 5 -7, Dagon, a pagan god, is called Elohim.
Judges 11 -24, the god of Amorites,.
Is called Elohim.
Messiah is called Elohim in Psalms 45 -6. Thank you very much.
What does the Holy Ghost mean as the word of God, the Kalamah, Allah, and the Spirit coming out of Him?
Another question for Adnan. You started your talk by saying that Jesus is a slave of God. Then you also mentioned that Jesus is a messenger. Can you clarify this point?
Jesus is not only a slave of God in Islam. Jesus is also a slave or a servant of God in the Bible too. Acts 3 -13, the God of Abraham and Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our Father's glory and highest servant, Jesus.
That is Book of Acts. And then Book of Acts, again, 4 -27, calls Jesus a servant of God. So, one, to be a slave of God, a servant of God, doesn't actually take the privilege away from it of being a prophet or a messenger at the same time.
Every single preacher, every single man, every single human is a servant of God, willingly or unwillingly. We are serving the system of God somehow. So, Jesus was a servant of God and He was privileged to be a messenger of God at the same time.
That is the answer.
Jesus is indeed the servant of God. He's called the suffering servant. He's high priest, He's king. There are many titles that are used of Him. But interestingly enough, and I ask my Muslim friends, can a mere prophet have servants, those who serve Him in the religious sense?
Jesus says He has servants when He stands before Pilate. He points out that if His kingdom was of this world, His servants would be fighting. He could call a whole legion of angels. Those legions of angels serve Him.
He's called the Son of Man who comes upon the clouds of heaven. And that Son of Man, likewise, has those who worship Him as servants. I am the servant of Jesus Christ by His grace and only by His grace.
Were it not for His grace changing my heart, I would not bow the knee before Him. But I am thankful to be His servant and His slave because He has redeemed me.
Please comment on the Unitarian Christians at the earliest stages of Christian history. And who called them heretics? And who gave them authority to call them heretics? A few questions.
The authority is called this. As I said from the beginning, I am a biblical Trinitarian. I am forced to believe the doctrine of Trinity by revelation of three foundational truths, biblical monotheism, the existence of three divine persons, and the equality of those persons.
And when you start looking at any Unitarian group, and there's all sorts of different forms of Unitarianism, are you talking about dynamic monarchism, that form of Unitarianism that confuses the Father and the Son and turns Jesus into a ventriloquist?
Are you talking about an Aryan form of Unitarianism that denies the clear usage of terms of deity and Jesus? Which one is it? If you look at whatever group, you will discover that they will have to reject some portion of scripture to come up with their beliefs.
Some do it openly.
Mormons, for example, they're not really Unitarians,.
They're probably theists,.
But they reject the accuracy of the translation of the Bible and put the Book of Mormon above that. The Jehovah's Witnesses who wake you up on a Saturday morning, and you try to talk to them, and you don't look very good, and you're all fuzzy green, the Jehovah's Witnesses do that by using a false translation of the Bible called the New World Translation, which is purposely mistranslated to substantiate their perspectives, et cetera, et cetera.
So they do it in different ways, but when you ask the question, by what authority, there can only be one authority for a biblical Christian, and that is the consistent testimony of that which is theophanous thoughts, that which is God-read, as the Apostle Paul describes scripture in 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17.
It's that which comes from the very mouth of God, and that's, we believe, that the Old and New Testament is, and it gives a consistent testimony to the deity of Christ and to the deity of the Holy Spirit, and so those who deny those things, by what authority do you do so?
By the authority of that which comes from God in the inspired scriptures.
I think to call those Christians Unitarian would be unfair on them, because the divide of Unitarian, Binitarian, Unitarian was actually carved by the Catholic Church in later years, so this term didn't exist as far as they were concerned.
Abunai is a group, which is mentioned by Eusebius in his church history, who believed that Christ is a messenger of God, he's a man born miraculously,.
He had a virtue,.
And Paul, Apostle Paul, is an apostate from law, and these Jews, who were Christians, they believed in one God, and they followed the law of Moses, the Jewish law, and they were against any idea of God existing, or being of God, with three persons in it.
They were simply believing in one God, and it is not fair to call them Unitarian, they just believed in one God, that's why it was, thank you.
This question might be thought to be offensive by some Muslims, so I bear your patience, and I think it would be a good idea if I addressed it as well, to clear up some misunderstandings, that's why I'm reading it out to you now.
Is there any form of salvation in Islam apart from joining Jihad? I doubt this, as Jesus strapped himself to the cross, so Muslims don't have to strap a bomb,.
Because he loves you.
I hope I've made it clear,.
Otherwise you'd be asked,.
He said he loves you.
Although this question is not based upon topic today, but I'd like, I will address it. There are other ways of attaining salvation in Islam, except Jihad. Jihad is one of the best ways of attaining salvation, and Jihad is not suicide bombing.
Jihad is fighting in the call of Allah to suppress the oppressors, to get rid of the oppressors, to fight against the oppressors,.
The alimin,.
Or all those people who are against peace and mischief makers. Other ways of salvation in Islam, praying five times a day,.
Believing.
First point is that we worship one God alone.
One being, one person.
The concept of trinity was carved later, as James White accepted the sixth century was the time.
When it came into being.
Lady Flexicorn actually describes to us that trinity, or the word shift, literally means to share. And trinity is a share of three beings. So in itself, trinity is a share. The Quran is against the concept of sharing the divinity.
In one being, or three beings, or five beings.
It doesn't really matter.
Quran is talking about a principle of sharing,.
Which is haram, which is forbidden.
And those people who believe in this sharing divinity.
In one being, or three beings,.
Are going to hell. This is what the point is.
And there are many other ways.
To obtain salvation in Islam.
I suggested that the doctrine of trinity.
Developed in the sixth century.
I said it was well known by the sixth century, and I've also said clearly, repeatedly, that it is a biblical doctrine, hence it was believed by Ignatius in 108. Please do not misrepresent me. People are watching this, and they know how many times I have said this.
I have said it very, very clearly. The doctrine of trinity is not something that developed way down the road. It was believed from the beginning. It is a biblical revelation. So all that assertion was in error.
Secondly, Jesus Christ gives himself on the cross of Calvary as the only way of salvation, because God is truly holy. And I don't care how many times you pray, the prophet said long before Muhammad and long before the New Testament, all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags before him.
When you see God for who he is, you will see that we need a true savior.
At this time, we will conclude the Q &A. We now have the five-minute conclusion speech, Speaker. I invite Adnan to give his five-minute conclusion first, and then we'll go on to what I'm thinking.
Bismillahirrahmanirrahim.
Ladies and gentlemen, it is clear to me that the topic was not addressed by Dr. James White today. I have substantiated beyond any element of doubt that trinity is definitely shirk according to the Quran, according to the Old Testament and the New Testament.
What is trinity? How the trinity became a concept which constitutes shirk in the first place. When we ascribe partners to God the Father, other partners, Jesus and Holy Spirit, were carved later on to be partners of God the Father, which came to be known generally, as Dr. White says, in the 6th century.
So those Christians who are living in those 6th centuries are doomed to hell because they don't have a clear concept of God. And God Almighty in the Book of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, is saying, that love thy God with all thy heart, all thy soul and mind.
How do you love a God when you don't even understand him? 6th centuries of God, trinity is not understood. And in the article, Dr. James White stated himself, quoting someone else, that doctrine of trinity is a mystery.
How do you understand a mystery?
How do you love? You don't understand. Dr. James White accused me of misquoting J. M. D. Kelly. Dr. James White aired in the article, Definition of Chalcedon, he states, why noted patristic authority, J. M. D. Kelly.
So, there is a noted patristic authority, J. M. D. Kelly, contrary to Dr. James White. So, he said Constantine did not add anything. This is what J. M. D. Kelly has to say about the clause which was added by Constantine.
We know that these phrases,.
That later wrote his insertion to Constantine, Constantine expressed a wish. 233, the early Christian doctrine, J. M. D. Kelly. I did not read with a misrepresentative in any way. So, this is what Dr. J. M. D. Kelly has to say, that Constantine added, inserted a passage.
Which these Christians follow today. A pagan emperor. Thank you very much. Now, how did the trinity come about in the first place, ladies and gentlemen? The reason we believe trinity is sick, one of the reasons why we believe trinity is sick is because it's man-made.
People, philosophers in the second, third, and fourth century argued again and again to insert ideas from themselves. Origin, a known early church father in the third century, he writes in his book, One First Principle, On First Principles,.
And I quote,.
The apostles related that trinity to the father and the son, but in his case, it is not clearly distinguished whether he is to be regarded as generated or ingenerated, but also as a son of God or not, for these are points which have to be inquired into our sacred scripture, according to the best of our ability,.
And which demand careful investigation,.
Careful investigation to carve a doctrine about the Holy Spirit from the scriptures. Third century, ladies and gentlemen, this is not the first apostolic century, this is the first century, origin speaking.
Now, James Wyatt, again, he denied that Christianity or the doctrine of trinity was ever forced down people's throat. Now, this will sum the whole thing up. Theodosius thought,. Emperor Theodosius came to power to enforce the doctrine of trinity in 1881.
So, book number 16, chapter one, art of the divine Peter, that he introduced that this is the religion that is in the Peter of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity and discipline,.
And the evangelical doctrine.
The deities of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit,.
Under the concept of equal, shall sustain, shall not receive the name of churches, and they shall be smitten first by divine initiative.
I thank you greatly today.
About the doctrine of trinity constitution.
Including statement, I thank you very respectfully. Audience, I'd like to thank Adnan for being here. I would like to also give some gifts to Adnan. It would have helped him a lot if I had given this to him before.
This is my book on the trinity.
And this is another book, Dan Walls and others, called Reinventing Jesus. This one especially debunks the common claim that there are parallels, that he is the most serious and mithristic,.
And things like that.
Good scholarly material, I would quite agree with you. Once again, I do thank you for being here this evening, and for engaging in this important subject. Just very, very briefly, I cannot force Adnan to hear me say that Christians were Trinitarians from the start, and that there was nothing about the sixth century, other than simply saying that it was known at the time of Muhammad, there was no reason for him to be ignorant of it.
I never said anything about the people in the intervening centuries.
Going to hell,.
Because I didn't know the trinity, because I've never said that. But you know that, and I hope that Adnan will come to understand that as well. If you read the rest of J. N. B. Kelly, I've taught church history.
I've written on the Council of Nicaea. If you read the rest of J. N. B. Kelly, he's talking about the discussion of where the term homoousius came from. He was talking about the people of the council that presented it, the difference between homoousius, homo-eusius, and hetero-eusius.
There's much more of the context that he just seemingly does not understand, the historical context of the Council of Nicaea that's very common. And I'm saying that he's misread him, not misquoted him.
Those are two different things. Finally, there is the assertion that Theodosius, who is the one that makes the Christian religion the religion of the Roman Empire, once again, the doctrine of trinity had been known and people worshipped for many centuries before Theodosius did that.
I don't remember ever saying anything about the issue of the Roman Catholic church, and when it began, or Rome, or any of the rest of those things. So I don't think any of that is really relevant to what I was saying whatsoever.
What I have said this evening, and Adnan is very quick to proclaim himself the winner, I leave that to you. Is the doctrine of the trinity accurately defined in the pages of the Kedah? I've presented the doctrine of trinity to you.
You don't even have to believe it. You can still understand it. He just raised the word mystery. Where did I raise that? Where did I raise that? He ascribed it to me. I never said it. Now, I understand the use of the word mystery because the very fact that God is eternal is a mystery to us because we cannot really comprehend that.
Our minds can't get wrapped around timeless existence. So I've got no problem with the word mystery, but I've never hidden behind it. I've given you the definition. I've given you the biblical basis behind it, and I've demonstrated that even though Adnan continues to just quote John 8 .54, he forgets 8 .58.
Just doesn't deal with the context. Deals, quotes John 17 .1 and 3, forgets John 17 .5.
Just doesn't deal with the context.
I don't do that with the Quran.
In the debates we're doing this week, I'm looking for a consistent Muslim who will use the same standards in examining the New Testament he does in the Quran and vice versa. That's what I'm looking for.
Because you cannot define the word truth without using the word consistency. And so I have asked a question this evening.
Where is the Quran?
Identify the doctrine of the trinity as true. We've seen the Quran talks about three gods. We don't believe in three gods. Says, well, use the word three. Yeah, well, that could mean anything. We talk about one god.
I submit to you, Adnan has just simply repeated himself. He has not engaged the criticism of his position, and as such, has not been able to substantiate the burden that is his in going first in this debate.
But my most important word is to you if what I said to you tonight is true, if Jesus is the one by whom all things are created, if he is your creator, you cannot be neutral about him. If every breath you take comes from his hand, you cannot be neutral about him.
What if what those sacred writings said is true, those sacred writings that existed long before the Quran, what if it's true? What if Jesus Christ is to divide your worship, but to recognize that your creator has to bring about redemption for you?
And he's glorifying himself in so doing, generation after generation, in causing men and women, boys and girls, to bow the knee in faith. Think about that.
That would be an erudite debate. Just a few quick points. I've only been giving questionnaires. They can be deposited in some collection points.
Towards the exit.
I've also been asked to talk about donations to the funding of this evening's event. They likewise can be given as you go out of the church this evening. Just a few quick notices. I understand James White is debating another Muslim, Sami Zatari, on Thursday this week at 8 p .m. in Trinity Road Chapel in Tooting, South London.
And Adnan, again, is debating on Saturday in exactly the same seat, in exactly the same church with David Wood. That's this Saturday, the 15th of November at 10 .30 in the morning. And that's all for me.
Goodbye.