Interview with Stephen Black (Part 4)

Welcome to Have You Not Read, a podcast seeking to answer questions from the text of Scripture for the honor of Christ and the edification of the Saints. Before we dig into our topic, we humbly ask you to rate, review, and share the.

Podcast. Thank you. I'm Dylan Hampton and with me are Michael Durham, Stephen Black,.

Chris Giesler. Well we are in our fourth session with Stephen Black and we appreciate his time and his expertise and his graciousness in this interview. This is our fourth session, so if you've missed the first three, be sure to go listen to those as well.

We wanted to end our time with Stephen Black on this series of interviews by talking about the effectiveness of gospel-centered, biblically-based ministry. One of the claims out there from opposition groups is that people don't change, that have a sexual orientation, and that any kind of claim that people actually do change is a lie.

Stephen, you know that's not true.

Tell us how your ministry is effective. Well, first I'd have to say I have to kind of pity people that say that this doesn't change. Like, you know, unfortunately Alan Chambers, you know, he deconstructed faith and deconstructed the idea of freedom by closing Exodus, and people like Greg Johnson that would say that what I've written is a lie.

I have to really pity them because when you find out the reason why they're saying that is they have unresolved trauma themselves. They have places in their history that have not been healed. The first thing I do is help a person understand their history, so doing a timeline on a person in dealing with the development of their relating and sexuality, and when you start going through key places of a person from 0 to 5, 5 to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20, and you start looking at their history you'll start seeing all of the different pretty consistent root problems that we see with people who are dealing with sexual and identity confusion.

I see. And so a lot of that is fatherlessness and in dealing with or not connecting like the first six years of my life, dad was shipped away in the military and he was a rough and tough guy, so when he came back I'd already been sexually molested and I was afraid of him.

His persona of strong masculinity was not what this sensitive artistic boy understood, and then I was just afraid of the masculine, of the good of the masculine, but plus he also demonstrated the bad of the masculine, and that's what we see a lot as well.

So either neglect or abusive fathers, especially in male homosexuality, but also in female homosexuality, because fathers actually bring about the center of the development of sexual identity in both their sons and daughters.

Interesting. So sons to be strengthened in who they are as men and growing up sexual beings, and girls to be able to grow up in their femininity, and that it's safe to be feminine because father will protect him and nurture that along with mother.

And then there's you know the possibilities of these things that we unpack called father wound and mother wound in the different ways that that looks, and we could talk about that for two hours, but there's a lot there.

And then of course sexual distortion, and sexual distortion is high 90 of most people even in this day where you've had sexual information given to you prepubescent that clouds, distorts, and really actually robs a person of their innocence, and brings uncleanness and darkness.

And without father pastoring that, father fathering that in their sons and daughters that can lead to corruption. And then of course overt molestation prepubescent always is going to bring a huge amount of confusion, and if it's never talked about and hidden like it was in my case because I was ashamed, I was afraid, and my abusers told me I wanted it.

And so that's what we see most abuse victims feel a deep sense of darkness and shame. They feel like they have somehow contributed to that, and then by the time they're teenagers then they turn in their place of post-pubescent feelings and desires, and the way that God has made us as sexual beings is there's shame around that now because now I'm relating it maybe to my same-sex or other experiences that they've had.

So really pastoring all of that with the Scripture, the Word of God, the character of God towards them, the sacrifice of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and really implementing that into the soul where they can confess all of their sin and really deal with that place of brokenness and true contrition and repentance.

Then you've got somebody who can now start working consistently in their internal world of accountability and boundaries in a spiritually devoted life. I use the acronym ABS. My son was a boxer. He's like, I'm looking at my abs, dad.

I said, yeah, but you need spiritual abs. And I've never met a man ever who has walked in freedom without sincere accountability. Confession session is good, but also organic living with other brothers who they naturally can confess their battles to where they shore up a place where they're not going to give in to temptation.

Boundaries over the nouns of your life. If you do not do something with your person, places, and things, especially technology, and have boundaries and not look at it as restriction, but look at it in wise ways of saying that brings safety to my life, then that's a man that I can say is on a trajectory of healing and freedom and a spiritually devoted life where you practice spiritual warfare, know you're dealing with demons, and putting all the fundamental tenants of what we pastor in discipling Christians with the Word of God, prayer, witnessing, scripture memorization, all the things that we would disciple anyone under that S.

So A is for accountability, and it's the.

Acronym, right? ABS. So A is for accountability, which of course brings freedom. Accountability does not restrict you and and bind you up. It does put boundaries in your life, but actually it brings you freedom.

It does because it.

Releases your conscience, right? You know, this is what we have to have in a sincere faith is a clear conscience before God and man, right? That's why like Andrew Murray, he used to say, your humility is not really based upon how humble you think you are before God, but how humble you are in your willingness to be confessed and humble before your brother to receive prayer.

So A is for.

Accountability, and the B is boundaries. Boundaries. All right, so the.

Accountability and the boundaries, and then the S is for spiritual, spiritually devoted life, practicing spiritual warfare. Yeah, very good. So exercise,.

Profit some, but what we need is we need spiritual discipline, right? You do, you do, that's right. Very good. So when you counsel, you're trying to root men, trying to root them in the Word of God, in the scriptural principles of confession, of being accountable, of having those boundaries, and of the spiritual disciplines of putting their attention upon God, fleeing the lust, fleeing the.

Immorality. Especially if there's any stronghold of addictive behavior, it is to be said, it is absolutely imperative that you live a completely confessed life, and we need to be operating in a confessed life, like James chapter 5 says, confess your faults one to another, and pray for one another so that you're healed.

And it reminds me of being with a group of pastors in the 90s. I was asked by Joy Screen to come and share, and I thought, what do I have to share? And I started praying about it, and the Lord told me to ask those pastors.

There's about 60 pastors in Texas in there. I said, guys, have you ever confessed what you think is the most vile, dark, sinful thing of your life, not just to God, but to a brother, and received prayer?

And I was surprised. There was a man that started doing foot washing. He said all the pastors there needed to wash each other's feet and confess. I had three men come to me, and here are two things, and I know it's ugly to say it, but these are more pervasive than we'd like to talk about it, bestiality and incest.

And I had two pastors that actually came to me and said that that was part of their background. They knew they were forgiven, but they had never done that. And one of the pastors began just keeping in contact with me.

He said, I have never been this free, ever. For years, he would write me and tell me how thankful he was that I received this confession and prayed for him. It really, really is important. So this is some examples that.

You're already bringing to the fore, that when it comes to sexual sin, which, you know, the world and those who are influenced by the world would say, these aren't sins at all. You know, whatever you desire, you do you, and we should be celebrating these things.

But in fact, through the scriptures, through gospel ministry, people can be freed, can be delivered, can be changed, that there really is a transformation that Christ brings in his saving work. Yeah, yeah.

And.

The trauma part is real, that, you know, psychologists and neurologists and neurosurgeons and people that study the brain. So things can happen with post-traumatic stress, and it is so important to give grace to bring healing to the brain.

And now that we have these scans, you know, of the brain and people taking three to five years to heal their brain, and beside that is spiritual oppression. And I have never dealt with any form of sexual sin or idolatry that didn't have some form of spiritual oppression beside it.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers and against spiritual forces of evil. So it is very important to understand, just because you have a thought or even the memory and it is plaguing you, that you don't bring that into the light with somebody else and also do spiritual warfare.

In other words, to resist the devil and to actually speak scripture and to speak the truth against these demonic forces that come against us, it's real. And you know what? It works every time. Yeah, because the enemy is bringing lies.

That's right. He's bringing deceptions, just like he did in the garden. And so we have to fight that as Jesus showed us with the Word of God, to fight against the lies and deceptions of the enemy, to not let those things be enthroned in our.

Hearts. Yeah, so listening to you talk over the past few sessions, I know there's some groups or people who have stood up and said that this doesn't work. They try to label it as conversion therapy. They say it doesn't work.

There's no evidence that anybody can change. And you've mentioned your book and how there's graphs or data to support that it has changed. Could you speak to your experience with that and some of the data?

Yeah, and there's also, I didn't.

Mention this, there's 14 other leaders that have at least 20 years of experience that have given testimony in my book. And so that's encouraging because there's lots of other leaders out there. The man who wrote the foreword to my book, Joe Dallas, he's one of my heroes in the Lord.

And there are people that have found lasting freedom. It's not just me. But I'm glad you brought that up because what I have found historically, when I start doing some investigation like a Greg Johnson, who has admitted that he's a porn addict, and you know, and that's not a condemnation on him.

It's just that I find that there are so many of these that say it doesn't work because they're in and out, in and out, back and forth, back and forth with their sin. And they don't deal with the traumatic experiences of their life.

They're not dealing with the needed healing of their memories and what has taken place in their life with post-traumatic stress and other situations. And that's what I find consistently. When these people get really honest why it doesn't work, it's because they never stopped acting out.

I mean, even the leaders of Exodus, when they come full circle like Randy Thomas now, who's now married to a man, they laughed about it. How they were using porn and masturbating and all this other stuff going on behind the scenes, although being in Christian ministry.

And so, of course, if you're not really walking in sanctification and really, you know, a surrender to the Lord in a real life of faith over years, for some people, it will take years because they've been so damaged.

And I was damaged, man. I'm gonna tell you, for the first 10 years of my life, I had to work on things. And then, of course, getting married and having children, it's like, man, I put a lot on my plate that brought a crushing immediately.

But the key thing was continued surrender, continued accountability and boundaries, and living that way of life and knowing from a babe in Christ that was the only way I was ever gonna have lasting freedom.

And the people that pastored me and discipled me told me so. And then I had to get rid of everything out of my home, out of my life, all the music, all the jewelry, all the clothing, everything that was associated with that perverted lifestyle, I got rid of.

And I started identifying with being in Christ and in the church, and it brought immediate sense of peace and freedom. Not that I didn't have struggles in my mind, in my memories, because that took another 10 years of healing.

And, you know, I'm 40 years into this, and 40 years may seem like a long time to people, but it's also just a blink, you know, especially when you think about eternity. And so it's really important to underscore longevity in pastoring people.

Yeah, would you say in your previous ministry and going through that, working with people, you had mentioned working with people for decades and things like that. Statistically, would you say the majority of people that have gone through it have found freedom?

Would you say, is there kind of a number that goes.

With that? Yeah, so in the survey that we did, we found that people that gave at least one year, most of them I would say two to three years, a pastoral care and support group, those were the people that went away living a life not labeling themselves anymore LGBTQ.

Now, I would say in the same survey, 50 of those still at times would have struggle in their mind, but half of those people reported either a complete diminished or very diminished homosexual desire to act out.

And so the temptation became less and less and less over their, honestly, their life of sanctification. But that's true with any kind of addictive behavior, you know. Sexual addiction of any kind, it takes years to recover from that.

And we don't blink an eye when we say that about drug addiction or alcohol addiction. Matter of fact, these communities say, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, which I don't believe. But, you know, it just takes time.

How much more so with something as really debased as homosexual behavior? Yeah. Tied to that,.

The talk about addictions with other things, you were mentioning basically becoming a new creation in Christ. So we become a new creation in Christ, and yet we still have these old desires that we we might have clinging to us as well.

And there is accountability, there is spiritual warfare involved. You can read some accounts of people who sent out missionaries in the last couple centuries, and some of the things that they were calling these missionaries to was to not just fight the spiritual battles, but to make sure they got adequate rest and had adequate water, adequate diet.

How effective or how have you been able to implement those types of things? I know when I'm having the most spiritual hard time is probably when I haven't ate for a while. Or I'm tired. Yeah, I've had a lot of stress and a lot of decisions to make.

How much is that stress in this sort of a ministry? Absolutely, it is stressed.

It's also in the intake process, we look at sleep, we look at what's going on physiologically. Are there any other medical issues that might be contributing? And then diet and rest are all very important.

A lot of times people, including myself, dealing with depression, knowing how to navigate depression, especially if you've had great loss. I'm gonna tell you, I've just gone through something that has been very, very difficult, and I'm so grateful that I had some of the training that I have in regard to what you're calling a holistic approach.

And it's very important for people to find freedom from any addictive behavior to have a holistic approach. Yeah, because we've.

Seen T levels fall to testosterone levels fall in men at a rapid pace over the last three decades. We've also seen a correlating increase in this sort of behavior on the backside of that, and I'm wondering if diet can be a contributor to some of the behavior that we're watching.

Actually, the.

Science is in, we know that that is true. And so looking at diet and having a healthy diet is really important, drinking lots of water.

Well, could you share, and obviously you don't have to share any names, understand the privacy issues here, but you know, I think that folks just need to hear from you, maybe one or two of your stories, testimonies of praise to God.

Here was somebody who came to me, came to our ministry, and they went away free. They went away healed. They went away, and here's how things turned out. I mean,.

Do you have a story or two that you'd love to share? I have many. Okay. I will mention one, and I can mention his name because he does this line of work. And so one of the most encouraging things is actually watching someone grow and even become a minister.

And recently I had a young man by the name of Andrew Franklin, and he is, you know, openly testified about this and his story. And he's married now with four kids and living in Seattle pastoring and just doing fantastic because he's implemented all of these things, and he knows them and embraces them.

Another man by the name of Jim Venice, which is also in this book, one of the leaders in my book. I was just recently with him last weekend. He had to have a major surgery, and it was a very, very dicey thing.

But just knowing back in the 90s, he came to me, and he was assembly of God, and he had divorced his wife, left his son for a man, was living gay identified, and he calls me up and asks if there'd be a possibility.

In 1996 it was, because I remember I was at my father-in-law's house on that very day. I remember the phone call, and he wanted help. And four, five years into it, he knew that he was gonna do this ministry.

Him and his wife ended up moving to St. Louis and have Pure Heart Ministries. And they will gladly communicate that part of their reason for being remarried and having a daughter. So they have a son and a daughter and adult, and they're both married now with children.

And you know, it's amazing. We were there together rejoicing just this last weekend. So there are many of those kinds of stories that I could talk about. There's a couple that are foreign missions that went through ministry and received ministry and are on the foreign mission field now.

And it's a delight. I have a couple of men that I've ministered to over the years who are now very wealthy and prosperous businessmen and have their own businesses now. They don't want to talk about being ex-gay.

And a couple of these people you would never know that they have this background. One's a lawyer, one's a politician, one's a doctor. So yeah, they're there. They're in your church. You may not know that there are people in your church that have struggled and have had some, you know, gnarly things happen in their past that Satan was trying to destroy them.

And they got some freedom. They were able to really... The biggest part of this, I know for sure biblically, is getting it in the light. Secretiveness empowers sin, but bringing it into the light brings freedom.

Yeah, and we see that in the.

Scriptures, don't we? We see that the instructions in the Word of God is to, you know, be sure that your sin finds you out. You bring things into the light. In 1 John, we're told that if we're going to have fellowship with God, remember this, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

If we say that we walk in the light as He is in the light, and yet walk in the darkness, we lie. Do.

Not practice the truth. I chuckle because that very passage was a passage I ministered to a man in Canada that changed his life just from believing that passage because he was living a dual lifestyle, married, and he was a minister.

And he finally brought it into the light that he was struggling with homosexuality, and he got set free. And to this day, he is now free and walking in freedom and in ministry. Well, how about that? Yeah, that was the thing.

It's.

Like when I first read that passage in 1 John, you know, he said God is light, and in Him there's no darkness at all. I mean, my mind immediately went to God is pure, God is holy, God is perfect. And boy, those things are true.

But as you read along in the passage, it talks about the way in which we walk in the light as He is in the light has to do with, surprise, surprise, confessing our sins. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So not just forgiveness, but cleansing as well. And the way we stay in the darkness is to say that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. That's the way you stay in darkness, is to say I have no sin or to say I have not sinned, but the way into the light to fellowship with God.

And John says, these things we write to you that your joy may be full. And so, you know, there are people in our churches whom God has delivered mightily from these things. But, you know, there are people in our churches, in our families, in our acquaintances that are also struggling with these things, and they have not yet found an opportunity to bring these things into the light in a way that they know there's hope.

And so, if you're listening today and you're in this situation, I encourage you to get ahold of Stephen Black. Quorum Deo, is it .com? Where's the website? My name, stephenblack .org. There you go, stephenblack .org.

That is very easy to remember. If you've been listening to these sessions, then you should be able.

To remember that. Stephenblack .org. Even if they're out of state, I can do a Zoom.

Meeting with them. Excellent. Well, I have benefited in my life more than once from going to a biblical counselor and talking with him about things going on in my life. And I have received encouragement and hope and help.

And so, I want to encourage you today, if you've been struggling with these things, you know, Jesus Christ is a great Savior. And Stephen Black knows Jesus, and he wants to bring the light of Jesus Christ into your life in these issues.

So, we thank you for your time with us these last four sessions. Thank.

You so much. You guys are great. Thank you. Well, we want to kind of wrap this.

Up with perhaps some more recommendations, some more resource helps, if we have any in mind. I know that I have been helped by a study written by E. Michael Jones called Monsters from the Id. And I know I've recommended this book before on this podcast, but I'm going through it again a little bit slower this time.

And just the massive impact that the Enlightenment and the Revolution has had on the course of Western history and Western civilization. And the realities in which we live today are traced back to, basically, godlessness.

That in the so-called death of God comes the birth of all manner of evil. And when we stop living in the fear of the Lord, that is the main problem. But I've been helped by that and kind of seeing a diagnosis of the decay of society.

We can also see this and be warned by it. And remember that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, beginning of knowledge, the beginning of understanding. To fear the Lord is to depart from evil.

The fear of the Lord is life and health to the bones. And what a wonder it is.

I had one. This one was pointed out to me by listening to a sermon by Vodie Bauckham. And he's talking about homosexuality and how when you're listening to sermons and a pastor gets up there and he qualifies the thing to death because of the nature of our culture.

It's such that you can't just say what the Bible says. You have to, and we love and we're not this, we're not homophobic, we're not that. It's just the nature of our culture. And he points out, he mentioned this book, it's called After the Ball, How America Will Conquer Its Hatred and Fear of Homosexuals in the 90s.

And so this was a plan. If you want to hear how we got here, this was a plan written about a long time ago on how are we going to overcome this hatred and fears, homophobia, in the 90s. And they do it through entertainment.

They do it through subtly putting it in and then given our conversation about the pedophilia that's in the background and the people who are putting out this content. And there's this grooming that takes place naturally.

It's like, well how are we going to get to the kids? Oh here's a company that has cartoons for children and now we see Disney kind of full bloom. They're open about it. This is what we are doing. People at the highest level in Disney have said, we put it in every chance we get.

We're going to take existing stories and we're going to ruin them. It started way back then. And so if you want to kind of see how we got here and kind of the plan that they ran, I would recommend that book.

After the Ball, How America Will Conquer Its Hatred and Fear of Homosexuals in the 90s.

Stephen, if you wouldn't mind reiterating your book, the book that you wrote a foreword to, and your website as well. So we can plug it here at the end as our.

Request. Thank you. Yeah, my book is Freedom Realize Finding Freedom from Homosexuality Living a Life Free from Labels. It has its own website freedomrealize .org. You can also connect with stephenblack .org.

And then M .D. Perkins, I wrote a foreword, which I think every pastor that is wanting to really understand the nuances around this and the theological corruption. It's called Dangerous Affirmation, the Threat of Gay Christianity by M .D. Perkins.

It is also found at American Family Association. And then they put out what I think is one of the best documentaries, not because I'm in it, but I was so honored to be a part of that, which is called In His Image.

And it has its own website, inhisimage .movie. It is their top-selling DVD that they've ever provided for the Christian community. It's already sold over 30 ,000 copies of DVDs, but over a half a million watches online.

And it's also on YouTube. And then they have 25 other additional resource videos answering the questions that are most common around this subject. Okay, well let's move to what are we.

Thankful for, Michael? I'm thankful for my father. He was full-time ministry for many decades, over 40 years. And I am thankful that he was faithful to continue in ministry. Thankful that he did not give up and wash out, as is often the case.

I think the average lifetime for pastoral ministry total is 10 years. Right now the average is at 10 years. And so I'm thankful that he persisted. Thankful that he was faithful to my mother, and that he stayed with her, and they stayed together by God's grace.

Thankful for that faithfulness. Thankful that he served her and loved her to the end when she died from cancer. So thankful that he did that. And in all these ways, I'm thankful for my father, and that he's still here, still in the city.

So we get to see him quite often now, three or four times a month, and that is a true blessing. Well with.

That, I want to say that I am so thankful for spiritual fathers and for pastors. And I'm thankful for you, Michael, for standing strong. I'm thankful for my original first pastor that really pastored me, John Ward.

I'm thankful for a pastor that both we had, Jerry Wells, who was actually a part of my ordination ceremony in 92, and bowing down at that cross, and having five ministers that at that time were all spiritual fathers that came to my ordination to say absolutely this man is called of God.

And so I just want to, you know, say that I'm so grateful to those men. David Smithers, Brad Yarbrough, Don Giles, and Jerry Wells, and John Ward. They were all men who came and said, we get behind this.

And those are the kind of people we need in our lives. We need all spiritual fathers, but also peers that will say yes, you know. I think it's really.

Important to be grateful for that. Amen. Chris? I know I've mentioned him before, but I am very thankful for my brother, both biologically and my brother in the faith. We have another brother who has gone astray and is actually practicing homosexual.

And yeah, and we're somewhat estranged because of that. I've made my stance clear, and so has my other brother. But God, for whatever reason, has preserved their relationship, and so there's inroads there.

But I am so thankful. It's tough sometimes, kind of that estrangement that happens. Sin causes separation. But I've had one brother that has constantly encouraged me through it and kind of keeps me updated to what my other brother is up to and how he's doing, because I care about him.

And so I'm grateful that God gives us people in our lives that support us in that. Amen. I'm thankful to.

The Lord for my little family. My wife is lovely, and she grows lovelier every day. And our three boys, and the one that's on the way, and we haven't been able to name them yet. When we find out their gender, we're gonna give them a name.

And we were talking about that with the other two recently. They understand that a baby is in mommy's tummy, and that we're the ones that get to give him the name, or them the name. But I'm so, so very thankful that he has given me the wife that he's given me.

She is an absolute gift, just like those three boys are. And.

That wraps it up for today. We are very thankful for our listeners, and hope you will join us again as we meet to answer common questions and objections with Have Me Not Read.