July 20, 2026 Show with Jeremiah Nortier on “A Review of the Recent Nazarene/Reformed Baptist Debate on ‘Can Truly Born-Again Believers Lose Their Salvation?'”

July 20, 2026 Show with Jeremiah Nortier on “A Review of the Recent Nazarene/Reformed Baptist Debate on ‘Can Truly Born-Again Believers Lose Their Salvation?'”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

The Program’s Mission and the Biblical Call to Mutual Edification

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 20th day of July, 2026.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have a returning guest on the program. His name is Jeremiah Nortier, one of the pastors of Twelve Five Church, a Reformed Baptist congregation in Jonesboro, Arkansas. He's a conference speaker, a debater, and host of the Apologetic Dog podcast.

Today we're going to be providing a review of a recent two-day debate that we aired here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on June 25th and June 26th between Jeremiah and Nazarene pastor Jared K. Henry. The two-day debate theme was, Can Truly Born-Again Believers Lose Their Salvation?

And Jared K. Henry, being the Nazarene in the debate, was defending the thesis that truly born-again believers can lose their salvation. And obviously, Jeremiah Nortier, the Reformed Baptist, was opposing, denying, or rejecting that thesis.

And I'm looking forward to reviewing this with Pastor Jeremiah. And if anybody has any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Jeremiah Nortier.

Yes. Thanks again for having me back on the program. We've been doing this quite a bit lately, and I've enjoyed it every single time, so it's always an honor.

Thanks so much. It's always my honor and privilege and joy as well. And please tell our listeners something about 12 .5 Church in Jonesboro, Arkansas.

We are the only Reformed Baptist church in Jonesboro. We have a lot of good relationships with Presbyterian churches, Southern Baptist churches in our area. And so, you know, we try to let everyone know that we don't have it all figured out, but we want to unify on the gospel of grace.

And so we try to keep the main thing the main thing. We absolutely love the Lord's Day. You go to 12 .5, you'll hear us probably say, it's not the Lord's hour, it's the Lord's day. And so after the sermon is preached, the service is not over.

We continue in our Koinonia Fellowship meal, one with another, and then we close out with sermon discussion. So we are cultivating expository listeners at 12 .5 Church.

And if anybody wants more information about that church, you may visit 125church .com, and it's the word 12, the numeral five, and then the word church .com. And the apologeticdog .com is Jeremiah's apologetic website.

So you may investigate and explore that as well. Well, I really enjoyed the third debate that you've had with Jared K. Henry, the Nazarene pastor on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And I think every issue that we've addressed has been a very important issue.

Perseverance and Preservation of the Saints as a Gospel Entailment

I still believe that as seriously as you and I oppose all three of the thesis statements that were debated in those three different debates, nonetheless, I believe that Jared is a brother in Christ, a born-again believer, and so first of all, before we even get into the details of this particular debate, why—and I know there's many reasons—but why is the teaching of perseverance and preservation of the saints sometimes called eternal security, but folks who are Reformed, although that is a true statement, eternal security, it is not a sufficient description as far as I'm concerned.

So we typically rephrase that belief, perseverance and preservation of the saints. But why is this such an important aspect of Christian belief?

Yes, I think it's one of the first natural entailments of your understanding of the gospel of grace. Like you said, people can be wrong on if you can lose your salvation or not, but there's a disconnect from their understanding of the gospel of grace, justification by faith alone.

Jesus was our perfect substitute, was the sole ground, reason why we can stand right before God, where we have the empty hand of faith clinging solely to Christ. And so I think it's so important, and why the Reformed, we contend so vigorously, is because we understand that God's grace is sufficient, meaning He who began a good work in you and so regenerated your dead, stony heart to now look to Jesus as an amazing Savior by faith alone.

We understand that that grace continues to sanctify us and sustain us and preserve us, if you will, all the way until the end. And so when someone says, well, you're saved by grace, justification by faith alone, but really your salvation is dependent on your obedience, like Jared said in the debate, well, I think it really is an attack against grace.

But like I said, we can still have that discussion in a charitable way. But yeah, kind of what I'm saying is, I think it's the next step after our understanding of the gospel of grace.

Hey, Matt, and by the way, before I forget, if you folks listening would like to hear the other debates that we have held on Iron Trip and Zion Radio between Jeremiah Nortier and Jared K. Henry, you can just look up—it'd probably be easier to look up Jared's name on the search engine, since I only interviewed him once in a program that was not a debate.

So that would be Jared, middle initial K, Henry, and you will see all three debates. We debated, I believe, the first time we had the debate on the ordination of women in positions of leadership over men in the church, which Jared defended, as Nazarenes do, and as most Wesleyan groups do, even if they remain conservative in other ways, they still believe in the ordination of women in positions of leadership over men.

The second debate that we had, which is probably one that is the most serious issue that you two have ever debated, in spite of how serious the other issues were, and that theme was, can Christians be free from sin in this life?

Actually, that was the way my webmaster abbreviated it. The theme was actually, can Christians be totally free from known sin in this life? And Jared defended that position, and Jeremiah opposed it. And then the last one was, as we already said, can true believers lose their salvation?

Can true born-again believers lose their salvation? And another thing we should probably add, before you analyze this specific debate, is that we share with Jared and others who believe that a true Christian can lose their salvation, we share with them a strong opposition and denunciation of the version of eternal security that is really accurately defined as teaching cheap grace and easy believism, and where men such even as famous and as beloved globally as the late Charles Stanley, he wrote in his book on eternal security that a truly born-again believer could be saved by inviting Jesus into his heart or her heart, and then immediately could walk away from Christ, abandon him for decades for the rest of that person's life and live like Satan himself.

And yet that person will still be welcomed with open arms into heaven when that person departs from this life because of the idea that once saved, always saved does not require fruit or evidence to judge that salvation as genuine.

And you would protest against that just as aggressively as Jared would, wouldn't you?

Yeah, because it's funny. Jared would agree with us that they're way wrong, but I think easy believism also is attacking grace. They would say, by God's grace, you were saved initially. But in their paradigm, God's grace isn't sufficient to produce fruit in one's life.

And so when they say, yeah, you can essentially backslide and live like the devil. Well, what happened to he who began a good work in you? Well, bring it to completion. So even though I'm glad Jared would see that as faulty, I just think they are attacking grace from a different angle,.

If that makes sense. Yes. And that is the reason why many professing Christians who do not agree with you and I over the issue of the inability of a truly born-again Christian losing their salvation, why many Christians oppose our view because they only know of the view that teaches that you could live like Satan unrepentantly your entire life for decades and still go to heaven just because you walked an aisle and prayed a sinner's prayer.

And I remember years ago how absolutely furious I was with Jerry Matitix, who is a Sata Vacantist Roman Catholic apologist. At one time, he was not a Sata Vacantist, which is one of those extreme traditional groups that does not believe there has been a valid pope since the dawn of Vatican II.

And so they would be a minority. And Jerry, though, was more of a mainstream conservative Catholic at one time. And he was involved in the very first debate that I ever orchestrated between him and James White on Mary, sinner saved by grace or sinless queen of heaven, was the theme.

And he also returned for a second debate with James. But I was so furious at Jerry because I was listening to a conference that he was speaking at. It was a Roman Catholic audience. And when he was discussing the issue of the ability for a true Christian to lose his or her salvation, he only described the cheap grace aspect of Protestant teaching on this at this conference.

And I had to actually contact him, and I said, Jerry, you misled your audience purposely by not telling them about perseverance and preservation of the saints, which is another view held by Protestants.

And you deliberately did that because you, when you were a Presbyterian, wrote your doctoral dissertation on it. So this was not so…. I didn't know that. So, and he acted like he wasn't aware of it. He said, oh, I've got to look that up and listen to it.

And if you're correct, I definitely owe an apology to those people that were there. But you know, he didn't do anything about it. But that was an intentional omission on his part. But anyway, let's dive now into the actual debate that was held, as we said earlier, on June 25th and 26th.

I thought it was, I think that it was probably the best debate that the three of you have done in regard to a more evident, what's the word I'm looking for, issue-oriented exchange that had no ad hominem involved in it or anything like that.

Not that the others did, but this was, I think, more palpably obvious that those things were absent from the debate.

I behaved myself a little bit more this morning.

So tell us about your thoughts here.

Yeah, well, initially, I just want to brag on Jared because I think the first debate we had, he was kind of getting his, you know, toes in the debate world. And I don't know.

That was his first debate. That was his very first debate.

And Jared is very sharp. And so I think the first one had a little bit more sparks. The second one, because of the nature of, you know, can you be freed from all known sin, still carried a little bit of excitement.

And I think this third round, you know, we're friends. And, you know, there was one point where I was trying to ask a series of questions, and I would politely interrupt. And he goes, hey, I'd like to finish my answer.

And it was nothing. And he'd be like, oh, go ahead. So I could just tell the tension wasn't there thick like normal. And yet, I think we had a really good exchange and cross sex where you could see the passion from both sides.

And I think the tall tale sign after it was all over, he said, all right, when's our next debate? And we're like, oh, yeah, maybe next summer we can book it. Yeah, he does seem to enjoy himself. So that's been my experience with, like I said, three debates, hopefully more to come.

Debate Preparation: Hebrews, Warning Passages, and God’s Promises

Well, I was just going to say I was really blessed in my preparation for this debate. There's a number of key resources by Thomas Schreiner. He wrote Running the Race with Endurance, essentially kind of outlying all the different views of eternal security.

This goes back to what you said earlier. Eternal security doesn't really get to the heart of the believe in some form of eternal security, but it's either going to be conditional in certain ways or it's going to be kind of unconditional work of gun.

And so Schreiner outlines that so well in his book and kind of anticipated the Wesleyan objections. And so kind of looking more into that tradition, he was really kind of lock and step with John Wesley.

And maybe we can get into this, but I realized a lot of this debate will revolve around defining what warnings are in Scripture and then also pressing and vindicating what the promises of.

God in Scripture truly look like. And what were some of the things that you did expect from Jared in his presentation? And what were some of those.

Things that may have surprised you, if any? Well, I really anticipated, and it probably was, I didn't realize he would camp on it so much, but it was really good because of my debate prep. But I knew he was going to read the warning passages.

And just so people know, I'm not blowing smoke. I made my opening statement really revolve on day one in the book of Hebrews. In fact, my opening statement really led with Hebrews 12, looking to Jesus, the founder and the perfecter of our faith.

And I made a case that that faith did not begin with us and it doesn't ultimately terminate with us. But it's something that Jesus says he is the originator and finisher. And so he suffered and died on our behalf.

And so I talked about how this faith is from above and is a gift. And so I started there to then only back up in the book of Hebrews to talk about how there's a promise that if you're in the new covenant, God says, I will remember your sins no more.

I'm like, God doesn't lie. And then I said, but what gets brought up in this debate is the warnings, especially the five warnings in the book of Hebrews. And that's exactly Jared's opening question. And when he asked me, when somebody, would you say, Jeremiah, that someone who is born again possesses the spirit?

And so he's kind of quoting John chapter three there. And I said, absolutely, of course. And so as he was asking that first question, I was already pulling up Hebrews chapter six, because I'm like, I know where this goes.

And sure enough, you know, he went to Hebrews six and read it all. And there's no need for me to interrupt. It's his question and answer time. But I'll never forget it. It kind of cracked me up. He says, do you think that this is rather intense language describing someone that is a partaker of the spirit?

I said, absolutely. It's intense. In fact, this is the third of five intense warning passages in Hebrews, and it gets intense with each one. And he goes, okay, so do you believe that he goes, what more needs to be said for this warning to be to authentic believers?

And I said, I do think that this is a warning to the church that would include authentic believers. And he goes, I don't know why we're debating them. If you think that this is real conceivable danger.

And I said, well, the difference between our worldviews. And then he looked at me like a deer in headlight. I said, the difference between our worldviews is these warnings are conceivable, but not probable.

I said, you think these warnings have a percentage attached to it, meaning that you can listen to this warning and there's at least 1 chance that you might be someone who falls away. As where I contended more for what Thomas Schreiner outlines in his book and Thomas or Charles Spurgeon articulates in his commentary in the book of Hebrews of saying, no, God uses warnings as a means to preserve and spur the elect onto glory and running this race.

And so that was, that really kind of messed up his whole line of argumentation because I think his game plan, and he did it day one and day two was just read warning passage that, and I just said, yeah, I don't presuppose your worldview.

I don't think these are probable lists, but I think that these are a means of conceivable warnings meant to preserve the elect. So that was probably the, what I anticipated the most. And I could tell it really.

Threw him off. One of those warning passages is one of the most chilling passages in all of Scripture. And that one is found in Matthew 7, where there will be, well, let me just read it. Matthew 7, 22.

And it reads, many will say to me, and this is Jesus on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and before many miracles, then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

And it is quite chilling because it is obvious that these people who are about to be cast into hell truly believed that they were going to be welcomed into heaven. And yet Jesus says, I never knew you depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.

Now, one of the things that is puzzling about this is that Jesus doesn't specifically mention how they were lawless, because they're saying, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and before many miracles.

And I'm assuming that they were doing that because Jesus never says to them, no, you didn't. But anyway, what can you assume about their lawlessness from that episode in the seventh chapter of Matthew?

Yes. We'll get into this more later because there was something with this passage that was surprising to me that Jared said in day two of our debate. But yeah, it's probably the most bone chilling words you could read in scripture in terms of a warning.

And so the lawlessness is interesting because it seems like this group had a lot of right theology, calls Jesus Lord, Lord, right? And then there's evidences of what they profess, like they did mighty wonders, casting out demons.

But I think he defines in verse 23, the kind of lawlessness he's talking about. He says, I never knew you. So there was never a relationship of faith. Christ knows all things, and yet he doesn't know them relationally here.

And so I think scripture tells us that all righteousness is like filthy rags. Romans 14, 23 says, whatever is not done in faith is sin. So you can cast all the demons you want to do. You can have all the right theology and teach other people.

But if it's not done to the glory of God alone, then lawlessness, right? You've been doing this for self and not for God. And I think that is the distinguishing marker. It's not Jesus saying, I knew you for a little bit of time, but he says, I never knew you.

And so first John chapter two talks about how there's many people within the fellowship, the church, but there are those that possess the spirit of antichrist. And so you do have demons that eventually reveal themselves.

But this goes back to what Jesus says, oh man, those people that do not have the spirit of Christ and have a relationship in faith, they still are among the disciples like Judas Iscariot, that you would never know externally they are doing all the right things, but Jesus knows the heart of man and he.

Is able to declare these words. So what are some of the other passages that perhaps led you to frustration that Jared wasn't exegeting them properly and not seeing the truth of the matter that you were having disagreement over?

Well, day one, I was very pleased how the cross examination went. Um, because my first line of questioning was showing how, uh, scripture can issue warnings and yet that can be a means to fill the promises of God.

Like I did in Acts 27 here in a minute, I'd love to talk about, uh, John chapter 10, but Jesus is the good shepherd and how the sheep know him and they will not follow the voice of a shepherd. So like, so that was kind of day one, but day two, what shocked me kind of going back to earlier where you asked me was this very passage when Jesus says, depart from me, I never knew you, because I was asking a new line of questioning about Judas Iscariot.

What was frustrating a little bit on the front end is I had to convince Jared that his position thinks that Judas was born again. I don't know if you remember this, but I said, do you think that Judas was born again?

And he goes, well, I believe he was a disciple. I'm like, great. Didn't ask that, asked if he was born again of the spirit. And he goes, well, we just can't be sure. So I'm thinking, okay, I actually accounted for this that I might have to convince him.

And so I said, um, was he able to cast out demons, you know, listed, I believe in Matthew chapter 10 and he goes, yeah, I think so. And I said, would that not be an evidence of power of the spirit? And he goes, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I do think that Judas was born again at the desk of spirit. I'm like, okay, now we're cooking because most commentators agree now that they are the ultimate authority, but here in Matthew 7, the most case example of someone that Jesus is talking about is Judas Iscariot, someone that would have right theology, Lord, Lord, that, you know, did these many mighty wonders prophesied in the name of Jesus declaring that he once again is Lord over all.

And he is the case example that many people understand. Jesus declares to this group, Judas standing at the forefront. I never knew you. And so I'd actually have Wesleyan, Arminian friends, and they just said that this is a tough question because what do you, how do you deal with, I never knew you.

And some of them just said, well, I never knew you is kind of a, Oh, a Jewish idiom. Like if someone were to, that was a really good friend were to slap you in the face. You may say, why did you do that?

I don't even know you anymore. You know? And like hyperbole, hyperbole. And I thought, okay, if this part is hyperbole, well then where do you stop is depart from me. I never knew you workers of lawlessness is that also hyperbole or what he says before.

And so to me, I thought, Oh, that's the best response because if you make this small part hyperbole, well, it's all hyperbole or Jewish idiom. Jared didn't take that route. He said, this isn't talking about Judas.

This isn't talking about Judas. And I think, okay, I'm glad we got to hear that a few times because then my next question, which once again, I had to kind of just show him, but I just said, did Jesus tell Judas when he chose him to be an apostle and disciple, that one of you will be a devil or one of you is a, and he just said, where's that found that take it?

Oh, come on. You know where this is as this is John six. And so I think that's strong evidence showing that Judas was externally a follower, a disciple, but he never knew Christ. And so even though that he did many signs and wonders, he's the he, he is the case example of someone that externally remember the disciple said, you know, is it me, Lord?

Is it me, Lord? He could, he said, one of you will lift your heel against me. But he knew that it was Judas. And so, yeah, that was probably the most shocking thing that I had to kind of convince him that his view would see Judas as born again.

And then when I took him to Matthew seven, he really tried to say, well, this doesn't mean that it's talking to Judas. I'm like,.

Everyone knows this talking, not exclusively Judas, but he would know. But he,.

When you think of this group of people, Judas is the first one you should be thinking.

Right. We have to go to our first commercial break. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state and country of residence.

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And go share your faith. Welcome back. We have a listener in Middle Island, St. Kitts, in the West Indies, Gregory. And Gregory says, I do believe saying, once saved, always saved, is a very good, accurate biblical saying.

Once explained properly to say all true Christians are saved forever and ever from both sin and hell, and not just from hell only. What do you say? Your opinion on that?

Eternal Security, Easy Believism, and Genuine Conversion

Yeah, I do. And I agree that if you understand once saved, always saved appropriately, well then praise God that we understand that we are being preserved by God in spite of ourselves all the way to the end.

The problem with once saved, always saved is usually couched in kind of a broad evangelical, if you prayed a prayer or you walked an aisle or asked Jesus into your heart, then you can live however you want.

So yeah, it's just pressing a little bit deeper, kind of going against how people typically mean it today. And if we can get on the same, you know, side of saying, no, no, God's grace is sufficient, well then I'm all for trying to salvage that term.

And one of the problems with that, very often it is said in a very glib way, once saved, always saved. And there is a very serious heresy associated with a misuse of that. And that heresy is once you think you're saved, you're always saved.

And once your pastor tells you you're saved, you're always saved. That's a really dangerous lie, isn't it?

I think so. And this actually gets into kind of back into the debate because something I was prepared to talk about was the closing words of James chapter five. And because it's talking about if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings them back, let him know that whoever brings a sinner back from his wandering will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Well, something that we could talk about is those among you. Many people grew up in church. Many people were baptized in unbelief as even infants. And they were told by other people, you're saved, you're Christian, you were regenerated, right?

You were given an infantile faith. I think that's harmful to people. You know what I mean? And so, yeah. And then obviously, we can't see one another's heart. All we can do is judge a tree by its fruit and use discernment.

And so, yeah, I think like you said, if it's once saved, always saved is used in a glib, just kind of flip it away. Well, it fails to miss the heart of the matter. And once again, it's, you know, have you been transformed by amazing grace?

Are you looking to Jesus who's the author and perfecter of our faith? Yeah, I grew up hearing this, once saved, is saved. And I'm like, that's a little bit closer to the bullseye of what we're trying to get to.