Defending the faith against Mormonism

The Mormon Apologetic to Isaiah 43:10 and the Identity of God

I've been studying a lot of the things that you've been teaching tonight for years. I'm a Mormon, by the way, and I didn't really hear anything tonight that I haven't heard before. I have, however, read several papers by Mormon apologists that have, you know, PhDs.

They're very, you know, they're very well documented. I'm sure you've read a lot of them, too. My question is, why can't you incorporate some of the more high-level apologetic arguments that Mormon apologists give, rather than saying the things that have been said for years?

Because Mormons like me really didn't learn anything tonight that we.

Haven't heard before. That's a good question, and I think I have dealt with, in the most simple way, actually, with the most fundamental questions. Because, for example, tonight I said the two biggest issues are, ready, who is God, and how do I come to know God?

And we could have dealt with tonight, like the Pearl of Great Price. We could have dealt with all kinds of other issues, but the real important thing is we want to get across who is God, and how do I come to know him?

And as an example, just kind of a springboard into this, okay, Isaiah 43 10. God says, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. And what I communicated was that the typical Mormon apologetic, I know that Van Hale teaches this, Tanner says this, Joseph Smith said this, that the answer to that verse is, well, that's of this earth.

That he's the God of this earth. So I am dealing with the Mormon apologetic. The Mormon apologetic to Isaiah 43 10 is, well, that's of this earth. Am I correct in saying that? Yeah,.

But it's so much more nuanced and gets into a lot more detail than that.

Okay, well, can you help us to understand you with this? In Isaiah 43 10, where God says this, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. How do you, as someone who's LDS, how do you answer God when he says that?

I.

Don't really have the answer to that question. Okay. I know that might seem.

Strange, but. Do you think that it's an important answer to come to? Yeah, it is. And, you know, I.

Could go home tonight and go on to fairlds .org. Sure. And I could pull up. Nice plug. Yeah. Fairlds .org. Yeah. And I could pull up five scholarly papers.

Written on that subject. Sure. Here's the problem. I can point you to numerous references where the top Mormon apologists that you would go to on FAIR, like Van Hale, Tanner, you name it, they've debated the best top Christian scholars with PhDs bigger than theirs, if you like that, that have not been able to deal with this.

As a matter of fact, when Walter Martin debated Van Hale and brought up this very issue, Van Hale didn't address it like you haven't. And so I think that brings us to a problem. And please understand my heart on this, okay?

Don't mean this because I'm trying to hurt you. But when the God of the Bible says, thousands of years before Joseph, he says this, before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I'm the first and I'm the last.

Besides me there is no God. And then Joseph comes along and he says that's not true. There was gods before God. There will be gods after God. He's not the first. He's not the last. You can become one, one day.

How does, as an, as a sincere person, because I believe you are, as a sincere person, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with that contradiction? Like you're asking me? Yeah.

I mean, I don't really have an answer for you right now. It's okay. But just, I.

Want you to know, the reason for tonight was to start a dialogue, to start a communication. And I know we've been talking through email, so I at least sent you the one. Did you get that? Okay. So we can start a dialogue.

So you can, and by the way, I flew through a lot of the references this evening. I did that because I didn't expect any of you guys had Journal of Discourses on you. So I flew through it so that you can listen to the CD.

You can get it on CD. It was recorded, okay? So by the way, if I was going fashion, like what is he talking about? It's because it's probably too expensive for us, one. And number two, you probably don't have it on you.

So you probably have like a trunk load case to bring out, if you did. But you can get the CD and get the CD, what I was talking about, to go through those verses. And we just encourage you to do that.

Because see, I just want you to know, we don't believe in any way, in any way, that we can convince you into the kingdom. I don't think so. I think that salvation is a sovereign grace. It's a sovereign act of God, where God opens your eyes and your heart.

Here's what I want to do. Here's my job. I get the blessing and the honor to bring you the gospel and to show it to you. And it says in Acts, or sorry, yeah, I'm sorry, in Romans, the gospel is the power of God and the salvation.

All I'm asking you to do is to take the scriptures that I did, take them home, and study them. Look at them and see if what I'm saying is true. You know, and let me deal, to be fair with what you said, okay?

To be fair. The Mormon apologetic to what I said about no God's before God, no God's after. It'll be on fair and everything else, is this. And you taught this in seminary. It's in the missionary training manuals.

I've got them. It says, well, that's of this earth. Well, that's fine. God's, he's the only God, but he's only God for this earth. But there are other gods out in the heavens. There's a problem with that, too, is God spoke directly to that in Deuteronomy chapter 4.

Let me read you that passage, because you will get that unfair, okay? You're gonna get that. That means of this earth. And I gotta be honest with you, that's the only response to these passages. I've been doing this for 13 years.

I've talked to bishops, stake presidents, Mormon missionaries, BYU professors, the average LDS person, and that is the only response that I have gotten consistently from these passages. Well, that's of this earth.

Let me just read to you what God says in Deuteronomy 4 real fast, okay? Then you can respond. Deuteronomy 4, chapter 30, sorry, verse 35. Let me just read to you two verses here. 35. He says, to you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God.

There is no other besides Him. And then verse 39. It says, know therefore today and take it to your heart. Now remember the Mormon apologetic as you listen to this. That the Lord, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below.

There is no other. So the God of the Bible declares that He's the only God in the heavens above and on the earth below. And so that sort of, that creates a problem for Christians because when Joseph comes along and says that all of our creeds are an abomination, we say, well here's our problem is that what you're saying doesn't jive with what God said.

Okay, so your question, do you have a question for me? Well, I meant, I'm trying to respond to the Mormon apologetic with regard to these verses. To be fair to the Mormon apologetic, that is the Mormon apologetic.

And it's, well, it's of this earth. Every passage that I read that says there's only one God, none before, none after, He's the first and last. Well, that's of this earth. Okay, so. Okay, so that's. Okay.

Just as far as all.

The Need for a Fair Hearing of Mormon Rebuttals

Those other, all the other issues that you raised, there are explanations that I didn't hear you bring up tonight. Okay. That I, that I know are out there. Uh-huh. And I don't think that it's, it doesn't seem fair to me for you to be presenting a one-sided view of Mormonism.

Right. And not, not the rebuttal. Right, well we, well I.

Spoke, I talked for about an hour and I could have gone for two or three, but everyone in here would probably fall asleep and get sick of my voice. The, the purpose of this evening was to give a basic, a basic touch on what does Mormonism teach about God?

What does the Bible teach about God? What does Mormonism teach about the gospel? What does the Bible teach about the gospel? We can have a two or three-hour conference, again, if you like, to deal with those issues.

But we only have limited time. But I think that I accurately represented what Mormonism teaches about who God is and how you come to know Him. Would you, would you agree with that when I quoted 2nd Nephi 25 -23?

For by grace are you saved after all you can do? Yeah. And the King Follett discourse? Yeah, no, I do agree.

Okay.