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Source: https://www.sermonindex.net/speakers/david-oliver/romans-7-1-25-part-a/
There's one question from the last reading. In Romans 6 and 22 when it refers to fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life, is this a possible reference to Christ becoming a superior spiritual gardener than Adam was?
Well, that's an interesting thought. And certainly this will link as well into the next chapter where fruit again is referred to. And so I think it is good to recognize that holiness is really essential to the spiritual life and it's really the goal of spiritual life.
In fact, really holiness is the perfection of life. And so that's where our salvation is moving towards. And so it is a nice thought that Christ in his relationship to us is dealing with us as a precious garden in which his interest is in bringing fruit unto God.
So we can appreciate that thought. Romans chapter 7. Know ye not, brethren, for I speak to them that know the law, or know law, how that the law hath dominion over a man so long as he liveth. For the woman which hath a husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth.
But if the husband be dead, she is loose from the law of her husband. So then if while her husband liveth she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress. But if her husband be dead, she is free from that law so that she is no adulteress though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law through the body of Christ, or by the body of Christ, that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sin which were by the law did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law. For I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
For without the law, sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once. But when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me. Wherefore, the law is holy and the commandment holy and just and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me, God forbid.
But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold unto sin.
For that which I do, I allow not. But what I would, that I do not, or do I not. And what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing. For to will is present with me. But how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would, I do not. But the evil that I would not, that I do.
You should say that 10 or 15 times quickly. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. I thought Josh prayed very nicely, but I will just bow for a further word of prayer before we open up the passage.
Our Father, again we look to Thee. We have need of divine illumination. We thank Thee for the work of the Spirit of God and for the work of the Word of God itself, living and powerful. And we pray that the minutes before us that will to us pass so quickly will be minutes in which there will be faithfulness to the Word of God and pleasure for Thy heart and honor for Thy beloved Son and blessing for Thy beloved people.
We look to Thee and our dependence and in our need. We are ignorant. We are children. There is so much we should know that we do not know and far more than we will ever fully know. But we pray for grace and help for the present moment in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Now we have been reminded that the truths that we're dealing with are truths that are important for young believers. I'm not so sure that anybody outgrows the need for the truths that we are. In fact, I'm sure that no one outgrows the truths and the need for the truths that we're looking at.
I just want to in by way of introduction and be very quick with this because it will be very important for us to get to the end of our Bible reading. If we do not get to the last four verses, five verses of the passage, then it will be a tremendous mistake.
Just three things that I want to look at with you. First of all, the context. This is very profound, but I hope you'll be able to understand it. Chapter 7 is after Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 is before Chapter 8.
But that is the context in which it is found. And we're looking at the link with Adam severed at the beginning of Chapter 6. The link with sin severed at the end of Chapter 6. Now it is the link with the law severed at the beginning of Chapter 7.
So in one sense, the first paragraph of Chapter 7 belongs with Chapter 6, but the Lord knew Bruce had enough to deal with this morning. So he put it in the... No, somebody put it into Chapter 7. So we'll begin with that.
But that does set the tone for the rest of the chapter as well in Chapter 8, Chapter 7. However, Chapter 7 would be a sad chapter in the Bible. If it were not followed by Chapter 8. And Chapter 7 will be a tragic chapter in our experience if our experience does not take us to Chapter 8.
So Chapter 7 is essential for us to understand Chapter 8. What we would miss, what we would fail to realize in Chapter 8 if we did not understand that Chapter 7 is concluding this. There is no way to live righteously, practically, apart from the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.
That's all I'm going to say. I'm not going to take any more from you. But that is the great message that comes to us in Chapter 8. Now, just a couple of things about the characteristics of the chapter.
Bruce mentioned to us earlier characteristic words that are in the Epistle. So just note this in Chapter 7. He told us that the law is mentioned 78 times. At least that's what I recorded. I didn't have that number.
But if that's what he says, that's good. In Chapter 2, there are 11 mentions of the law. That's the most of any of the other chapters. Except for Chapter 7 in which there are 22 mentions of law. Sometimes law just as a general principle.
And sometimes the law as the Ten Commandments given to us. And without any question, the Ten Commandments is the focus of the chapter that is before us. Let's not say too much about law in a negative way.
Because there is the law of God and the law of my mind that is crucial. And the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus in the next chapter. So let's not disparage law. But let us recognize that there is law that is incapable of being fulfilled.
Apart from the work of the Spirit of God within us. And in the chapter, self. Whether it's I, me, my, myself, mine is mentioned. And I think I'm going by memory of this because I didn't copy down. But something like 47 times in the chapter.
And if our Bible readings make you self-conscious in your Christianity, then we have left you in Chapter 7. And if your Christianity is primarily how bad I am and how negative about myself, then you'll live in Chapter 7, which is not a very nice place to live.
Thank God for occupation with Christ. We'll come to that in the passage and the operation of the Spirit of God in our lives. Now, just for the idea of contents that are in the chapter. Bruce reminded us again of two men in Chapter 5.
And he reminded us of two masters in Chapter 6. So I got to get something out of Chapter 7. It will be two M's and not three M. But no, it's very obvious that there are two marriages. There is a marriage to the law in picture.
And there is a marriage now to Christ. And so Paul gives us at the beginning of the chapter an example. And the major part of the chapter is experience. Paul's own experience or experience that he is taking for himself.
Now, I'll just give you four lines of thought. I hope they will be logical for us and understood. And we'll use that as the basis for our Bible reading to move through the chapter. Verses 1 through 6 is deliverance from the law.
In the death of Christ and in his resurrection, the deliverance from the law and a new relationship formed. Discovery through the law is what you have in verses 7 through 13. Now, Brother Richard told me sometime along the line about this chapter, that this is the most difficult chapter in the Bible readings.
I don't know why I said that. Well, it is difficult because there are various views at various points, okay? The overall point of this chapter is very clear. How Paul arrives at it, there may be some differences of views.
And none of those differences of views will... Will any of us be adamant? I hope. But I'll just express where I am. And then I'll get amendments from whoever wants to make things right. It's okay. I'll argue.
I'll argue. No, I will set forward my reasons. And you can set forward your reasons. And you'll be wrong. I don't know. I'm willing to learn. But I think in these verses from 7 to 13, they are all in the past tense.
I think they are the experience of an unconverted man. But when you come to verse 14, the tense changes. And you're brought into the present. I take this to be the experience of a Jewish man who is saved.
So we have deliverance from the law, verses 1 through 6. Discovery through the law. Paul discovering the absolute sinfulness of sin through the law in his unconverted days. Despair because of the law.
The law now sets a goal for one who is saved. And he delights in it. And he desires that he might attain that standard. But there is despair. Totally incapable of doing so. Verses 14 through 20. Desires consistent with the law at the end of the chapter.
Verses 21 through 25. I delight in the law of God after the inward man. So we'll look at the chapter relative to the law and these four phases of thought. Delivered from the law. Thank God for that. And good reason to be delivered from the law.
Because the law pointed out in unconverted days, you're sinful and gave us no help. Condemned us. And in converted days, if we attempt to attain the standard of the law, which is right and good and holy, frustration, absolute impossibility.
And yet that desire characterizes everyone who is a believer. Delighting after righteousness as the law of God upholds it. And we come to this, in one way, wonderful conclusion. Oh, wretched man that I am.
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Whatever that means. It's going to be very helpful for us to step into chapter 8. Essential for us to come there. And so we'll look at these sections together.
Verses 1 to 6 will be our first occupation. And I hope if you have a contribution to make, you make it. I'm not going to sit around and wait for you to do that. As much as I would like all the help we can get, we do have a time constraint, as you understand.
When he speaks of brethren here in verse number 1, who is he addressing? Is it a national link, as he will do later on in the book? Or is this a spiritual link? Which do you think? Well, you're chairing the Bible.
I think it's a spiritual link, as in chapter 1.
Okay, and I thought it was a national link. Verse 4. My brethren. My brethren. Makes the difference.
And I think he goes to the national. Well, here is the difficulty. My brethren, as such.
How would you take it? I'd take a spiritual link with every... With all of them.
Here's my problem with the spiritual link, John. And there is merit to what you're saying. And that's what most of the commentators say. But here's my problem with it. I was not under the law. I had no obligation to the law as an unbeliever.
But there are those who have a covenant relationship with the law. How would it be right for them not to observe that covenant relationship? How could God end that relationship so that they actually could be connected to Christ in order to bring forth fruit?
That's my thinking.
But go ahead. Later in the book, he mentions my brethren according to the flesh. And I thought when he qualified it, it was the national link. Very good.
I take it, he says, I speak to them that know law. And I know that Roman law could be brought in here and all kinds of law brought in. But I had thought he specifically, again, working with what he comes to in the chapter.
The law, the Ten Commandments, the law of Moses. Well, wouldn't you say in this part that he's... I think maybe you're saying the same thing, but just... That really you're talking... He's talking to believers here, but he's talking to Jewish...
He's possibly particularly talking to Jewish brethren. Oh, what a compromise. Politically correct. Yeah. There is a spiritual connection between Paul and these people. Yeah. He's not speaking to unconverted Jews.
No, that's what he's saying. Thank you. Is that what he said? No. No, that's not what he said. No, but first for... You should have said yes and have Bruce would have been the peacemaker. But okay, but here's what we will agree on this.
That the conclusion he is going to come to is equally applicable to Jew and to Gentile Christian. Okay. I think there's a bit of logic like in chapter three. Okay. Remember in chapter three, what he says is, now whatsoever things the law saith, it saith to them that are under the law, Jews, that every mouth might be stopped.
So God takes the specimen of the Jews, gives them the highest privilege, and proves that humanity is guilty before God through that specimen. Therefore, it passes to all. I think maybe here you're looking at a Jewish man who has all the privilege of full light of what is right.
As a Christian, he cannot live what is right. And so if it's proven for the Jew, it's applicable to Jew and Gentile alike.
Yeah, I thought that the first one really was a spiritual side. But I thought that he was bringing in on the national, like my brethren. Okay. Because of what follows in the next verses. Okay, good.
We'll move on from that. But I don't have any problem either way with it. To me, it helps me. But if that's not logical to others, fine. But what he points out, this is his premise in verse one. That the law is applicable as long as a person lives.
That is true relative to various aspects of the law. And he only chooses one to prove it. He chooses the law of marriage. And that is supported by Moses' law. But I think you would have similar by civil law as well.
So now, the picture that he gives. Let's move right into that verses two and three. It is a picture of a marriage as God intends it to be. And as it was designed by God and came significantly. It comes from Adam.
I don't know whether you want to make a connection there with what has gone before. But as long as the husband lives, the wife is subject to the law of marriage to him. It's not subject. It's not here talking about being subject to him.
It's subject to the law that links her with him. And if she goes outside of that link, she bears shame. She's called an adulteress. And she will be known for that lifelong. Because she has gone outside of God's intention for marriage.
But whereas she went outside to another man and it's wrong. Upon his death, if she forms a link with another man, it's proper. That simply, to me, is what Paul is setting forth now in verses two and three.
And I'll anticipate this. Anybody here that wants to bring up the subject of divorce. I will tell you right now, it's not in the passage. It's not relevant to the passage. I'm not trying to be evasive.
But it's not here. This is the ideal. This is what God intends marriage to be. This is what law sets up. This is the illustration that's being used.
So if it's a general principle in verses one to three, is it specific? Does it become specific law in verse number four?
I think so, yes. The law meaning the law of Moses. So okay, verses two and three. Actually, I'm going to move on past that. Not that it's unimportant, but it leads to verses. That's the picture that he uses, but the point is in verses four, five, and six.
And that's where we want to go. And that's where we are. Wherefore, here's his conclusion. There was a death. You were connected to the law. You were under law to the law. But there was a death. You didn't die that death.
But see, it all goes back to chapter five. It all goes back to the representative death of the Lord Jesus. And that representative death not only severed our link with Adam. And it severed our link with sin.
It severed a link with the law, which is a Jewish link with the law, I think. We okay on that part? Or we don't agree on that one either? You go ahead. Okay, good. Well, thanks, John. But at any rate, there is this link to the law that was, I take it to be a Jewish connection.
But it was severed through the death of Christ.
So it would be the natural thing for a Jew to turn to the law, wouldn't it? I mean, we were never under law. But just imagine what it was like. And now something new comes in. The law is going to be set aside.
It must have been very, very difficult for them to just take that on. It was part of their culture.
It was part of their mentality. And it was part of what they regarded as spiritual. And it certainly was. It's right. We'll get to that later. So in other words, they are thinking that in order to produce practical righteousness in life, how else could you do it but by adhering to law keeping?
And then there's a dilemma that follows when he can't do it. There is a purpose that's brought before us here. And I'm looking at verse four, okay? The purpose is this. And Bruce has made mention of this in answering the question.
That ye should bring forth fruit. Now, it's not bring forth fruit unto righteousness now, but it is in a relationship with God. So he's developing the thought further from chapter six. And now it's coming out that a relationship with God, a relationship with Christ, actually.
A relationship with Christ is absolutely essential for there to be fruit to God. So is this parallel in natural creation, be fruitful and multiply? Is that brought now into the spiritual and we're linked with Christ?
So there should be fruit following that union, that relationship? Verse five tells us about the fruit of our former life, okay? In that, the law had its impact. It stirred our members to sin. And the result was fruit unto death.
And there again, death in its most embracive sense is being brought in there. So that's our past life. But we were stirred by the law to utter failure, to sin. But in the purpose of God, we are severed from the law that there might be fruitfulness.
Fruitfulness through this connection with Christ, married to another. Now, please don't press this into Ephesians chapter five. It's an illustration that's being used. And what we're talking about is only through association with Christ will there be fruit to God.
See, you didn't really get that clearly in the preceding chapters. But he's moving toward chapter eight, where that relationship with Christ will be seen in the power of the spirit of God. Previously, as mastery, you had fruit to righteousness, to holiness.
But now it's fruit for God through this connection with Christ.
Is it important that the connection with Christ is not the Jesus who was here,.
But it's a risen man who is there? Yeah, we didn't point that out really. But in chapter six, you have Christ Jesus. The anointed one, the exalted one, the living one in heaven, who died, who was here on earth, who suffered.
Would there be any distinction between the fruit here in John 15? Being in Christ, we're going to produce fruit in John 15. Here are links with Christ.
Now we'll bring forth fruit to God. Okay. And then we can go to Galatians chapter five, where it's the spirit of God that produces it. And that will fill the picture in for what we're developing here.
So divine persons are all involved and all are recipients of that which is produced in our life by our relationship with them.
So will the ultimate of this fruit be seen in the next chapter.
In conformity to the Lord Jesus? Yeah, sonship and likeness to Christ. Absolutely. But William's sleeping over here, but you get in trouble if we don't. Yeah, that's for sure. So the purpose of this severing of the connection with the law is that there might be another through whom there is fruit brought, and it will be for the glory and pleasure of God.
The past, that being dead, okay? Which was, where am I? No, I'm in verse six. Let me just sit back here. Verse five, four. When we were in the flesh. In the flesh? Unbelieving. That's an unbeliever. The motions of sin.
That would be the emotions or the passions of sin. It's an older word and not as we would use it now. The passions, the stirrings of sin, the emotions of sin, which were by the law. Now he's going to explain that further down the chapter, that the law actually incites the sin, but that's just a reference that he makes to it now.
It worked in our members and it produced fruit all right, but that fruit was associated with death. Verse six, we're moving on. I'm not shutting out contributions. I want all the help possible, but. Verse six, but now.
We have been severed from the law. We have been delivered from that. That is not the means by which there will be fruit for God. Because we have been associated with the death of Christ and therefore our link with the law severed.
And now instead of the oldness, the weariness, the incapacity of the letter of the law. We are now brought into service in the newness of the spirit. Now personally, I wouldn't mind putting a capital S there, but it is within our spirits by the power of the indwelling spirit of God.
That's where we're going in chapter eight. So whether you want a lowercase S or a capital S here, it really amounts to the same thing.
So the word for delivered here is discharged, isn't it? It's the same word that we really have for loosed in verse number two.
Yeah, the connection becomes ineffective. No longer does it have any power. That's the same word as well. Back in chapter six and six might be destroyed. Rendered useless. And that's the thought throughout.
Having died to that wherein we were held. So not only have we died to sin, but we've died to the law. At least the Jew has. Okay, good enough. That's what I see. But it's all in the death of Christ. So every obligation under which man was to God or to righteousness or to Adam, whatever, every obligation is severed by the death of Christ for the believer.
And this is all a work outside ourselves. We have accepted Christ as our savior. And this is all associated with that. That's all that's happened.
The night you were saved, the night at the time I was saved, I wanted to be delivered from going down to hell. I wanted to be delivered from my sins. And I took the only remedy that God had. And I was so thankful.
Weren't you? I had no idea what I came into. At that moment, I became linked with Christ and all that his death accomplished. And I still don't know all that it accomplished. But I've come into the good of that in one moment.
And the truth is, too, when you think, I know we maybe didn't pick it up in Bruce's reading. It was a busy reading. But when it comes to death that we appreciate, when it comes to that mode of death, there's a lot of ways in which a person can take his life, but he can't crucify himself.
So it had to be, as our brother said, something that was done by God and God alone.
Now, just to make sure, because this idea of the spirit and the letter has been abused. The spirit meaning what's just within me and what I feel within me, whereas the letter is this observance of things literally.
The word of God is to be observed literally. And the truth of God is to be taken literally. So we're not talking here about what's just spirit and character versus what's codified in the law. We're talking about the letter engraved in the Old Testament law.
No longer is that the means by which we serve, but it is by the newness of a life within us by the power of the spirit of God.
So you have a liberating spirit and the binding letter of the law. Would that be right?
In order to produce righteousness is back of that thought. That there might be fruit to God. That there might be fruit unto righteousness, unto holiness from chapter six. And Paul uses this parallel in 2 Corinthians 3 as well with the difference of ministry of the spirit, ministry of the law.
And there he calls it the ministry of death. And he calls it the ministry of condemnation, written and engraven in stones, placed in contrast to the ministry of the spirit of God in the new covenant. So it's the old covenant versus the new covenant ministry.
Not engraven in stones, but actually their law will I write in their hearts. Yes.
What's the thought of newness and oldness?
Well, it's newness in character and it's old in character as well. It just is worn out. It's not effective. It doesn't work. Oldness of the letter. It's like the old man, only different. Precisely.
We've been taken from one bondage and that's what it says here that when we were held, that's a bondage, that we should bond serve, serve as a bought one who has purchased. That's the meaning of the word.
And so we've taken from one servitude to another servitude. And earlier on, we saw in chapter six, bond servants of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness. So we're not at liberty to lead our lives as we want.
The son shall make you free. You're free indeed. From the bondage of sin and death. But we still have a responsibility and accountability, both positionally and practically to live for Christ.
But there's just a hint in all of this, that this bond is so superior. This service is so superior. It comes from a relationship, an intimacy with Christ and how much more desirable. It's the bondage of longing to do what will please him rather than having to do what we're required to do.
Back to the Hebrew servant. Yeah. Well, so much of this is really chapter eight of just what we're given here. And so now from the rest of this chapter, he has to show the detriment of attempting to maintain our relationship with God under the terms of the law covenant.
Good. Thank you. So we'll look at verses seven through 13. And here is the discovery that I take it, an unconverted person makes a Jewish man attempting to keep the law. And he's questioning as anyone contending with him would.
Well, now is the law sin? Is that what you're trying to say? And Paul says, that's not my argument. God forbid.
Here, the three words, lust, concupiscence and covet are all the same word, as you know. Have you any idea? Why do you think he chose this commandment out of the ten?
I'm not sure, John, but I will tell you one thing that appeals to me. It is the one law that addresses something deeper than actions. It addresses a man's thinking. So it's the most stringent in that sense.
The most easily overlooked. That's not covered, but it goes right to what we think. And therefore, I wonder if that's at least part. I don't know.
Do you have any other suggestion? Is it possible that behind most other sins is this sin?
You could keep the other ones outwardly, as you have said. And Paul, didn't he talk about himself being blameless? But then, you know what they say, the sting is in the tail. And the last one got him because, as you say, it was inward.
Yeah, I think it's because it's really identifying the essential nature of sin here. It's not just one chosen at random, but this is the actual character of sin. That it is desire out of control and drawn towards what is not mine.
What does not rightfully belong to me. And so I think there's really two definitions of sin that we find in the New Testament. And this is one of them, in a sense, that describes the essence of it. The other is in 1 John 3, about 5, where it says sin is transgression of the law, or literally lawlessness.
So you put these two things together, you have disorderly desires. Desires that are out of control, unsatisfiable, and you have a refusal of restraint. Well, that's where you get this mind of the flesh, as we get later, this which will not be subject to law.
And again, you were thinking of it probably, but he saw that it was to be desired to make one wise. So it really goes back to the initial sin. Now, Paul says, I had not known sin. There is an innate sense of what is right and wrong.
But the clear definition of sin, he was blissfully living without that sense. But here's the instruction of the law. The law says, this is sin. Here is where the line is, this is sin.
So the law not only exposed my sin, but it excited something in me to sin. Okay, and that's the next verse.
Thanks, Murray. We're going down. But sin, but I really don't want to eliminate further thought from verse 7.
He's dealing, isn't he, with what we are, not with what we do. So covetousness is something from within. That's the subject, isn't it, that he's dealing with.
So sin instructs, it educates us as to what sin actually is. And when he read in the law, thou shalt not covet, he hadn't recognized that there was coveting going on. It was there, but he hadn't recognized it until the law says, thou shalt not covet.
Suddenly he says, oh, that's sin.
So in verse number 9, just to come in on that, when he says, when the commandment came, is that the giving of the law or is that when the commandment came into Paul's experience and was addressed to his experience?
I take it to be the latter. Yeah, when the truth of law dawned on my consciousness. Okay, so verse 9, verse 8. Let's just drop back there for a moment. Sin took occasion by the commandment. The sin used the commandment as a launching pad for its desire.
Okay, and just as surely as you tell a child, there's wet paint, do not go into that room. What will my grandchildren accept it? What will your grandchildren do? No, there'll be some finger somewhere that will try it out and it'll, it's just the very statement thou shalt not that says, I wonder why that is, what's wrong with it?
And that's human nature because, and I'm sorry, this is from chapter 8, but it's not subject to the law of God. Neither, indeed, does it have the capacity to be. Because it's not sins, it's sin. It's the sin nature.
It is that nature that rebels. Rebellious nature. Rebellious nature. So now here's something that sets the standard. What does sin do? It rebels. It's excited against it. It rebels against it. And it not only now produces the original problem of whatever the covetousness was, it produces all manner of covetousness.
Every evil desire. Once it's, the lion within is untamed and it's released, it goes in every possible direction.
So when you're walking through the park, enjoying walking on the path, lovely grass, suddenly you come to a park and it says, keep off the grass. You may never put your foot on the grass, but right through your mind is, I'd like to walk on the grass.
It never would have been there before. You would have been content to walk on the path until you saw the sign that says, do not do it. That's law. And it gives us the thought of sin, brings it up what it is.
And you may want to do it. You may do it.
It focuses the mind on it. At the very least, that's. It's like when in a Bible reading, when the brother says, now we've got to move and somebody takes you back. Is that sin? It's an illustration. Disobedience.
Where did that come from? At the end of the verse, he says, for without the law, that is without the operation of the law, without the awareness of the law, he was, some people want to press this to be when he was 12 and he became a son of the law.
I don't know that you have to be that precise. But he says, without law, apart from that law, sin lay dormant. It's not that it was put to death. It just lay dormant. It was waiting to be excited by thou shall not.
But verse nine, where we were before, I was alive without the law once. I take that that I was blissfully ignorant, living in, well, I thought it was life. But I did not know the very nature of my own sin.
Now, for a Jew, when would this be in his life? You suggested an unsaved man. Then the other line of thought is a young child who comes to the age of responsibility. The unsaved man at the age of 20 would be cognizant of the law.
A child at the age of 12 would be ignorant of the law. So where do you see this fitting into a man's life?
I took it that it is a general, whether Paul, I don't see that Paul is talking about some specific time in every Jew's life. I don't know if whatever you have in mind is fine.
No, I'm just wondering. That's why I like the thought of the child that once you come off the age of accountability, responsibility, and knowledge, then you're taught the law and suddenly you learn that what you thought was right is wrong.
And whereas a grown man you've known for many years, it didn't suddenly come when you were 25. It came when you learned the law. And the unsaved man's known the law all his life when he came from an age of accountability.
And yet, it is a very strange thing that we meet people who still think that they're going to get to heaven by keeping the law. They're obviously still oblivious to the message of the law and to the conviction of the law that brings them under judgment.
And so, you know, I'm not sure whether we can define, it would be typical for what you're expressing there. But it's possible for people to think they're all right with God and think they love God and think God loves them and everything's just wonderful.
Until this realization comes and they realize that this puts me in jeopardy and in trouble with God. I think that's probably the sense in which it is here.
So you're suggesting verse 10 is an experience in your life that the commandment that was ordained to life is found to be to death? Because otherwise, of the oblivious of the intent of the law and the ramifications of it?
There's people today that try to keep the law, but I've never heard anyone say, I don't covet. They say, I don't steal, I don't commit adultery. And it's when the commandment came, I would think, when it really came right home to them.
I was going to bring that scripture into what Bruce was saying. That's what I take it to be. I can see the merits of thinking of it in terms of the typical Jewish child and coming into responsibility that this law is of God and that's my obligation.
I can see that. I thought it was a more general thing, but I don't know that we're going to resolve any problem with that. You know, really, really throughout this section, just as many of us wouldn't have been in the same kind of environment, exactly.
But we have all had that coming to recognition. And that's, as we realize, it's actually an essential coming to recognition. That sin is real, that it's working in me, and it's overtaking me, it's overcoming me, it's destroying my life.
In an age of Bible ignorance, I think that we're pointing out the need to preach the law. Now, I don't mean specifically the law, but to enunciate in the gospel what is right and what is wrong and to uphold the standard of God.
Because we are living in an age of ignorance of the scripture and of God.
So alive without the law ones, that's not spiritual life. I don't think so. That's blissful ignorance of the law and of sin. What he considered to be life.
This is fine. Everything's okay. So how do we understand the end of the verse, I died? Can you help us with that?
I thought he became conscious of an alienation from God. So this is a sense of hopelessness. Yeah, whatever, it's leading a man to recognize his true relationship to the God against whom he sinned. Would the law not have taught him that, that he was condemned?
That was the purpose of it. For by the deeds of the law, there shall no flesh be justified in his sight. By the law is the knowledge of sin. That's true for the unbeliever there. And I think he's bringing himself in the experience of it here.
Yeah, twice, twice in this section, you have sin taking occasion by the commandment. And just to go back to the garden of Eden, where you have that beautiful paradise where everything was theirs. Everything was theirs to enjoy from the goodness of God.
Except for just one thing. So that's where the tempter drew attention to. That one commandment. And that was taking occasion by the commandment to deceive and to slay. He made that one statement from God, the base of operations, from which he launched his attack.
And now the law now to Paul in his earlier experience was the base of operation that sin took. Not that the law itself was a military thing, but sin took that as a point of advantage to attack him. In verse 9 and 10, Brother David,.
Is he making a distinction here or a difference between the law and then when he refers to it as a commandment in verse 10?