Interview - the Holocaust and the Jew — Art Katz

Shalom, Mishpochah. Shalom, family. Mishpochah is a Hebrew word. It means family. And we're in the Mishpochah, the family with a Jewish heart, made up of Jewish and non-Jewish people that are brand-new creations in the Messiah.

Getting ready, Mishpochah, to blow the grandest shofar. Oh, the grandest trumpet in Zion. We want everyone, everywhere, to hear the good news. We want everyone, everywhere, to be red-hot for Jesus. And I have on the telephone a man that has never been accused of not being red-hot for Jesus.

He's prophetic teacher Art Katz. I'm speaking to him at his commune, so to speak, at the Ben Israel Fellowship in northern Minnesota. They've been there, what, 25 years, Art? That's right, Sid.

That's a long time. In fact, I've not lived any place longer, even Brooklyn, New York, my origin.

Well, for those that aren't familiar with you, I go back with you, because when I was a brand-new believer, if anyone heard of someone Jewish believing in Jesus, the one they heard of was Arthur Katz.

Art Katz’s Conversion Through Revelation

Art, I remember you were a history teacher in New York, a high school history teacher, and you were a real left-wing radical. Tell me a bit about your life and how you became a believer in the Messiah.

Well, I'm a summation of so much, that is, all the more because I was a visionary and an idealist, and I couldn't find any fulfillment for that in school. I was not interested in career or success, and fell into left-wing, up with Marxism, and then joined the army during the Korean War.

Sent a German wife and was fascinated and loved. The whole German culture had always been a strong... And then married to a German woman whose upbringing in the Hitler years was schizophrenic, together to bring me to an end of my humanistic assumptions, and require me to leave because my marriage failed, and to seek philosophical answers.

And in the course of that 14 months of travel, a modern Jew called me by name in Jerusalem and brought me to himself.

I returned to California... Excuse me, that's too powerful to leave alone. He called you by name in Jerusalem. Was this a pretty startling thing for a Jewish atheist?

I had a preliminary supernatural experience in the first reading of the New Testament aboard the deck of a trap steamer on my way from Italy to Greece. You have to understand that as a modern man, I was more Greek than the top of the board that said, Go Greek!

It was significant that en route to Greece, in the reading of a Hebrew book called the New Testament, in fact I had never read until that moment, I received in the very first reading a revelation out of the mouth of Jesus that was a single moment of time having been an atheist all my adult life long, that there is indeed a living God.

Jesus of that book is who he claims to be. So you can imagine the depth of my astonishment. When the Lord finished me off some months later in Jerusalem, calling me by name, I was a revelation that came through being picked up off the side of the road by born-again believers, a witness to and of my life coming in my 34th, 35th year.

And you say the Lord called you by name? Yes.

What did he call you? I had been staying at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and was being guided by a young man training to be a rabbi and not to forsake my ancestral faith and the last aspect was to visit an ultra-orthodox community.

He put me on a bus, but he put me on a wrong bus. I found myself lost and going in circles in Jerusalem and got out of the bus and asked the woman for directions. She was very gracious, gave me a little sketch, a map, and observed I was in a bookstore and I looked a little more closely and I saw Bibles, commentaries, New Testaments.

I looked again at this woman's Jewish face, clearly Jewish. I said, what is this place? She said, this is our bookstore adjoining our chapel. We are a congregation of Jewish believers and the Messiah, Jesus.

And at that point, an inward voice called me and said, it's commanded not to leave. And so I stayed four days and nights with this Pentecostal congregation and saw a demonstration of the reality of God that I had never glimpsed in any synagogue or church in America.

People praying for me and trying to answer my questions and I in the most bewildered state imaginable trying to put all this together, going to sleep the last night in a state of bewilderment and confusion unable by the power of my intellect to understand how God could ask me, a Jew, to become, quote, a Christian.

And in my sleep that night, the Lord just gave me an understanding transcending my mind. 1964, I said to this woman, Rina, with whom I'm still in correspondence, 35 years later, Rina, I believe I understand.

And the poor dear fell out of her seat and said, Lord, we've done everything for this stubborn man. You make him to understand. And on that basis, 35 years to call upon the name of the Lord to take the word Jesus, the name to my lips which was excruciatingly difficult abominations that we have suffered in that name and to call upon that name and join myself with the enemies of the Jewish people I will in no wise cast out any man who comes unto me.

And the Lord actually gave me the grace to speak his name. It was not a vocalization. It was a grace that allowed me to stutter and finally get that word out of my mouth in the moment I did.

The Holocaust and the Question of God’s Silence

Art, the two hardest questions in the traditional Jewish community one, you've dealt with how you as a Jew became a fervent red hot believer in Yeshua, Jesus, the Messiah. But the second question is just as penetrating and just as heavy in the Jewish psyche and that is the Holocaust.

Why didn't God stop it? Why did God allow it? And many traditional Jews are closer to atheists even going to traditional synagogues because of the Holocaust. I want to take you back to the early 1950s and this was before you had a revelation of Jesus and you were visiting one of the worst of Hitler's concentration camps Dachau.

Tell me about it.

Well as a GI in Germany and my first young kipper instead of going to a synagogue being an atheist and I had all my categories fully in hand, the good guys and the bad guys and I was going to have my hatred for the Germans confirmed but as I walked through that camp which by the way Sid is different now than it was then now it has been nicely cleaned up and landscaped.

At that time it was the crude ugly place of death that still lingered from the late 1940s and the stink of the gas chambers and bones and ash and so the totality of that horror that I realized that this is beyond good guys and bad guys that somehow we are all implicated over the issue of the Holocaust because like most modern and American Jews there was something about German civilization that we found very compelling and endearing and how could this people the land of Goethe, Schiller, Fichte, Hegel be the land of our destruction civilization that we most touted and wanted so much to emulate even as a messianic alternative and so the conundrum of how Germany could have been the agency of our undoing not just our death but a bestial death was a paralyzing question that had always occupied me even as an atheist and so the going to Dachau that day was a tremendously traumatic experience.

Interpreting the Holocaust in Light of Scripture

After the Holocaust.

The Jewish community really tried to evaluate it or interpret it but you point out in your book that it took 20 years before they even put in writing what they thought were the reasons.

For the Holocaust I think that that's understandable because the trauma of the Holocaust the systematic annihilation the elimination virtually of continental European Jewry it was beyond even the categories of thought significant literature.

It took about two decades before we began to get some kinds of comment and analysis and attempt to understand that remarkable phenomenon. All this week we will be discussing.

Your book titled The Holocaust subtitled Where Was God? Why did you write.

This book? Well I would say it was the culmination of many years of agonizing and I had been speaking on this subject. One of my major addresses came in 1974 at a Kansas City conference before 2000 people that brought the most profound and I knew that I had stumbled on something or been prepared for something and that God wanted a book from that initial statement.

And it took a century of time not only because it attempts to understand the Holocaust it speaks also of a Holocaust yet to come.

Now Art, this is maybe I better repeat that line in case people missed it. A Holocaust yet to come. Shalom Mishpochah. Shalom family. Mishpochah is a Hebrew word. It means family. And we're the Mishpochah.

The family with the Jewish heart made up of Jewish and non-Jewish people that are brand new creations in the Messiah. Get it ready Mishpochah to blow the grandest shofar. Blow the grandest trumpet in Zion.

We want everyone everywhere to hear the good news. We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for Jesus. And just listen to my guest long enough and you'll realize he is red hot for Jesus. His name is Art Katz his prophetic teacher.

I'm speaking to him at his community called the Ben Israel Fellowship in northern Minnesota. In particular we're talking about his book The Holocaust, Where Was God. And on yesterday's broadcast Art, you mentioned some pretty unpopular views that you espouse in this book.

One in particular is the next Holocaust that's coming. And of course a lot of people say I'll pray and feel sorry for the Jewish people not realizing that the whole fate of the world and individual countries and cities are dependent on what happens to the Jew.

But let's go back to. You told me you were visiting for 20 years. You've been going back and forth in Jerusalem. But some of these views were so unpopular. You could not find anyone that would offer you a pulpit for them back then.

And you actually spoke about it in the lobby of a hotel. What happened? Well in the lobby we were given meeting rooms.

That had to be expanded every night for the increase of the crowd but not one of those whom I had known over the years came. I was totally boycotted and the only one who came was the wife of a brother to harass me publicly.

But when I came back from that series of meetings there was a letter signed by 13 of the most eminent and known of the messianic and other leaders of the ministries in Israel condemning me as a false prophet that's harassing the church and giving aid to the enemy.

And so that opened up an opportunity for me to respond by a letter that we took weeks to compose which gave the most comprehensive and biblical exegesis over the future and destiny. And that letter is to be found on our website www .benisrael .org as one word called the burning bush and it's called letters to a false prophet and in that you can have a view of how we perceive the whole situation of Israel and her future and that the time of Jacob's trouble is not past, it was not the Nazi holocaust it's not in light of scripture and that it's yet a future event and that there's calamity for the Jewish people not only in Israel but worldwide seeing that it's the time of Jacob and many nations and that we ourselves are here in northern Minnesota not the least preparing a place for both my own experience the call of God and my understanding of scripture from a prophetic understanding.

And we're putting our life on the line. We so much believe in what we're saying and the Lord is now giving me quite a liberty to speak this publicly and freely everywhere I go. And I find that where I go often proves to be the actual line of flight and refuge that the Lord is establishing and people invariably come up to me and say I've been waiting years to hear this word.

I felt that I was a freak that God had called me to prepare something like this but it seemed outlandish and unthinkable. And now that I've heard you I feel that it's credible and that it was the leading of God both in this nation and in the world.

I'm seeing God prepare Jews in flight in that soon coming time.

God’s Judgment and the Biblical Sources

Let's go back just a little bit to the premise of the book, The Holocaust. Where was God? Many Jewish people ask Where was God? Why was he so silent?

Maybe there isn't a God. Respond. Well, I think that not the least of the reasons for the Holocaust is that God is not happy with our inadequate view of Him that there's something about ultimate tragedy and calamity that necessarily is going to bring an end to inadequate views of God.

We're compelled either to see Him afresh more deeply than we knew Him or to altogether cast away our notions of God and God Himself as somehow and there have been books of this kind written by a former rabbi from the University of Florida who wrote a book called After Auschwitz in which he forsook the traditional views of God and became essentially an atheist.

He did not call for the an end to Judaism nor Christianity but that it should go on without any sense that there is a God and so has been a great thought Him to be. But the issue is, is that the God who is?

Because the aspect of God that was omitted, the one that even Christians are least likely to consider is the issue of God in judgment. And my contention is that nothing more reveals God, His severity and His judgments and that without that consideration we don't understand either His mercy or His love and so consideration of the Holocaust will require a radical re-examination of our understanding of God and are bringing us back to the biblical sources for that knowledge the most profound of which is God's historic dealings with Israel which have always been judgment for our sins.

My question is why should the Holocaust be exempt from that that even rabbis have employed historically to understand the Jewish disasters of the past? It has always been examined from the perspective of Deuteronomy, of blessings and of curses and that what we experience comes from the hand of God, though He will use nations and men as the rod of His chastisement, but that He Himself is its author.

And that's the theme of my book and I try to sustain it and I can't understand why any framework of understanding would not consider first our calamities in the light of our sins. And then if that does not serve, then we can consider other possibilities.

But the thing is that there has been no answer for the Holocaust and even Jewish sources say that this is beyond consideration. It's not for us to understand nor to probe.

Eli Wiesel and the Refusal to Consider Divine Judgment

You talked about a chance meeting that you had with the Jewish winner of the Nobel Peace Prize that many are familiar with, Eli Wiesel. Tell me about that. Well,.

This was some years ago he spoke publicly and speak in an eloquent and impressive manner and in the course of it he said that he's now studying the Hebrew Scriptures with a rabbi twice a week. The Lord didn't allow me to ask the question publicly, but afterwards I went up to him.

In so much that you're studying the Scriptures twice a week, to what degree would you acknowledge calamity, and including the recent Holocaust, is itself the fulfillment made in Scripture of what would be flawless in the latter days.

He froze and he looked at me and he finally said, I refuse to consider that. And I read in my book and go on to interpret what it means when a foremost authority on the Holocaust refuses to consider what he can in fact my human judgment over and against the Word of God.

It's not a question of whether God has said that in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. I refuse to consider that. It's outside of my category. I will not factor it in. And so it's a statement in my opinion of supreme human exaltation over God.

And I write in my book if this is a foremost authority who lost all of the members of his family in the Holocaust, was himself a survivor, community accepts the voice of it, and that we are still guilty of this kind of presumption and self-assertion over and against the Word of God, which is to say.

Over and against God himself. Art, one of my concerns is, as you know, there's an anti-Semitic lie that unfortunately has floated around that the Jews killed Jesus. We know by the Word of God that Jesus laid down his own life for the sins of the whole world.

But it's been used for anti-Semitic purposes. Your theory, your teaching on the Holocaust of where was God, in effect will cause some of these anti-Semitic quote Christians that, you know, the two words should never be put together, but they're religious people, they're not really one of the Messiah, let's call them religious Christians, to point at a Jew and say, well, you didn't believe in Jesus, that's why you had the Holocaust.

I can't think of anything harder to say to a Jewish person. It's, what shall I say?

It's a situation and a question of an extreme kind. But I don't think that we can evade the truth. The message here is with their culpability and guilt in the death of the Messiah, who was slain with wicked hands, though was predetermined by God, they were still culpable in their involvement.

It is that the enemies of God's people have played upon it, seized upon it with the cry of deicide. But we need to recognize that the truth of it is undeniable. But we need not bring it accusation in that sense, but with a broken heart and say that is the ultimate statement of what had been a long-standing sin, and it reached its apogee, it reached its final expression in our inability to recognize him when he came, in our opposition to him, to his word and to the testimony of his miracles, and finally our agreement to the summation of all of the sin that characterized us as a nation to that successive generations have not opposed that decision for his death makes them culpable in it, and until we repent of the error of our fathers or the sin of our fathers, and they're willing, we ourselves are implicated in that decision.

But I must balance it by saying so is every non-Jew on the face of this earth, because he died for our sins. Right. I mean, his death was a necessity,.

But the fact that we were involved in that death willingly, all the more as Jews, he came to his own and his own received him, not our part in that, though it served the redemptive purposes of God for all mankind, and all mankind's sins were placed upon him as the sin-bearer, nevertheless, we need to recognize what our sin was, and as willing participants, and our continued...

Repentance, the Gospel, and Revelation

Art, you're stirring up a lot, as you always do. Shalom, Mishpochah. Shalom, family. Mishpochah is a Hebrew word, and that's what it means, family. We're the Mishpochah, the family with a Jewish heart, made up of Jewish and non-Jewish people that are brand new creations in the Messiah.

Getting ready, Mishpochah, to blow the grandest show far. Oh, the grandest trumpet in Zion. We want everyone, everywhere, to hear the good news. We want everyone, everywhere, to be red-hot for Jesus.

And a lot of teaching today, throughout the body, is, for lack of better words, Bless Me Club. But you know something? To whom much is given, much is required, and we are living in, as the Orthodox Jewish community says, the footsteps of the Messiah.

And I believe that my guest, Art Katz, who's a prophetic teacher, I'm speaking to him at his place where he's lived for over 25 years, the Ben Israel Fellowship. It's a commune in northern Minnesota, and God has recently given him a release on a lifetime study that he's done.

We're talking to him about his book, The Holocaust, Where Was God? Art, I'd like you to get a little more specific, rather than we've been talking in generalities up till now. What is, biblically, the root cause.

Of the Holocaust? And perhaps read a scripture on that. Speak about a Deuteronomic view. That is to say that Deuteronomy and Leviticus covenant speak of blessings and curse. That there's a covenantal obligation and a very serious consequence for the rejection.

And there's an actual, actually, it's not something from father to son and through the generations of what we are warned would befall us in the latter days. And in chapter 32 are descriptions that are so vivid and reminiscent of the Holocaust that it gives you a chill to read them.

So, for example, I'm looking at the Amplified and also the New Revised Standard Version in they shall be wasted with hunger and devoured with burning heat and poisonous pestilence in the teeth of beasts will I send against them with the poison of calling things of the dust.

And then the next verse, verse 25, from without or the chambers drawing both young man and virgin with the man of gray hairs. And it's interesting that in the examination of the process of extermination through the use of gas chambers, asphyxiation of the bodies always remained the same.

At the bottom were the oldest and the weakest, namely the gray hairs and the sucklings. And at the top were the young men and women, to the top were the last vestiges of air that remained. Theoretically, in Deuteronomy of what would befall us in the last days as a warning to be.

In that same chapter are the questions that have, that we could have been hurt to our death and that we could not have overcome in many instances the few German gods and that nations were closed to us for escape.

And in that chapter, put 10 ,000 to flight except their rock had sold them and the Lord had delivered them for a phenomenon that takes place in modern times.

The Children, Covenant Responsibility, and Judgment

Art, what about the innocent children? What about the very religious Jews that were sincerely wrong but sincere in their faith and definitely loved God to the best of their ability? How could God allow this to happen to those two people groups?

Well, that's the argument that's put forward by a philosopher now living in Israel from Canada and I answer that question at the end of my book, or I attempt to answer it, and that kind of orthodoxy, is he as impressed with it as we are?

Why do we assume not to be subject merely because they practiced a form of Judaism that is pious because there's a derivative origin that had much to do with the rejection and the death of Messiah himself.

Whatever their practices carried on into modern times, it has not been divorced from its root and God may have all the more the greater contention for a people who purport to be religious and yet have been Scripture rejecting as well as Christ rejecting and have not had even opportunity given through the calamities that have pursued us in Europe and in exile through these last 2 ,000 years to ask if indeed our fathers had not made a mistake.

And do we need to reconsider and in the light of Scripture examined about this rejected Messiah. But having had 2 ,000 years not only to consider the question but to ask why do we. Is this a continuing statement from God seeking to arrest our opinion.

And have we come finally to a time in history when God just chose its consequence. In fact in Deuteronomy 32 verse 34 he asks is not this laid up in store with me sealed up in my treasuries. That is to say this judgment when so ever I choose.

I am not under obligation for there to be a direct cause and effect to give you cause to repent and to consider your ways. But the fact that we have passed through that holocaust without a remorse and without a repentance without a broken consideration of our past and its failures and our judgments and come out with a statement never again implies that what we suffered has nothing to do with God but our own weakness as a people and the viciousness of those who are our enemies.

In a letter of condemnation that I got from the head of a bible society in Israel who read my holocaust book or at least portions of it he says I'm not interested in this God judgment stuff. The issue is man's inhumanity to man.

Well is he speaking from the vantage point of scripture or from the vantage point of humanism. I think that the issue is not man's inhumanity to man but the God who allows his judgments to be wrought through man's inhumanity but that he himself is the author who he cuts and slays he heals and he makes alive.

And that statement is in Deuteronomy 32 as well I lift up my hand to heaven and I live forever. I wet my lightning sword my hand takes hold on judgment. I will wreak vengeance on my foes and recompense to those who hate me I will make my arrows drunk with blood.

And my sword shall devour flesh with the blood of... Art.

I must ask the question I posed of the pious Jews. You gave me your answer. What about the innocent children.

Well I try to address that too. You know what makes judgment judgment is that others suffer for our sins and especially reason. Judgment all the more needs to be feared and it's an incentive to covenant fidelity.

Knowing that failure would bring upon our heads not only the judgment of God but the heads of our children as well. How shall they be exempt they have to the sins of the fathers upon their children. And that would be an incentive to keep us in the way.

And that's what makes judgment judgment and judgment to be feared.

The Church’s Failure and Christian Responsibility

And what would you say to someone that says if God is that way I am not going to serve a God.

Like that well I would say that that's the kind of arrogance and self exaltation that makes sin sin and invites the kind of very judgment upon us. God is righteous that's a given. We know that he does all things well he's perfect in all his ways he's holy.

And though we may not understand or let alone approve of the painful things that come to us in our experience in history we have to fall before the fact that God is God as the indisputable factum that's the given truth and hope to understand our calamity in the light of it and go back to scripture and search it.

And in fact God says to this man I will look he who is of a contrite and broken spirit and trembles at my word. And so these judgments ought to occasion a trembling by which that word will be opened and revealed to us.

But if we harden ourselves which is the option of how we can respond to judgment and choose to reject the God who inflicts it then we invite upon our own heads and that of our children the consequence.

I've heard many say well the holocaust certainly could not have been as bad as it was if true Christians had taken their stand. How would you respond.

The church is indicted in its failure but that doesn't obviate or lessen the issue of the holocaust for ourselves as Jews. It does bring the church under an indictment as well and there are reasons and things that need to be understood in that way.

But I don't think that you have dissuaded God from bringing to pass that which he speaks in his word will necessarily come to pass and that there's been no repentance on our part. As Jews we have not acknowledged the sins of our fathers which makes us one and culpable with them in it.

And in my answer to this doctor in Jerusalem who condemns me and my book I just wrote this last night I said. How is it that you could be a leader in a bible association and not understand yourself the deuteronomic principle by which rabbis have always understood the calamities that have befallen Israel.

What has changed. Why should we not continue to understand and seek an explanation on the basis of the word of God and the judgments that God said would befall us in the latter days. What has happened.

What has changed in us or in God. That removes that as a fulcrum as a principle of seeking explanation.

We're out of time. Shalom. Family. Mishpochah is a Hebrew word it means family. And we're the mishpochah the family with the Jewish heart made up of Jewish and non-Jewish people that are brand new creations in the Messiah.

Getting ready mishpochah to blow the grandest. Show far. We want everyone everywhere to hear the good news. We want everyone everywhere to be red hot for Jesus. I have on the telephone a friend of mine.

I've known him. Gee. I don't know hard cats. I don't know how long I've known you. Probably as long as I've been a believer in the Messiah which is well over 25 years. He's a prophetic teacher. He is a founder of the Ben Israel Fellowship.

It's a community in northern Minnesota. And Art. We're talking about your book The Holocaust. Where Was God. I must say you use scripture to support your case but it is not what most people think of when we think about the Holocaust.

Israel’s Historical Alternatives to God’s Redemption

Historically besides the Holocaust why do you feel that Jewish people the traditional Jewish people were not obedient to God as a people group throughout history. Well.

We have been the authors of counter messianic alternatives. Perhaps probably the most prominent and devastating example would be communism itself and Marxism Marx himself being an apostate Jew and according to Richard Wurmbrandt and others one who has dabbled in Satanism and offers mankind an alternative to God's plan for the redemption of mankind and the nations and the reconciliation of men the end of which has been rivers of blood, tyranny and devastation in nations of the world and one of the greatest threats even to our present civilization.

Paul in Romans says that we are the enemies of the gospel. Yes. But Art I have to balance.

With what you're saying by the fact that some of the greatest finds in science that has blessed humanity has also come from Jewish people that did not know their Messiah that's true.

And of course I'm grateful and mankind is grateful for that genius and that contribution but we're asking what is it in our life that would be a cause for God's anger, wrath condemnation and judgment.

And I would say that we have been in the forefront of many causes that present an alternative to his own redemptive purposes for mankind.

And what would you say to the anti-Semite who takes that type of information and uses it and says see Jews are eternally cursed by God and we should rid the world of the Jew, that's the Hitler theology.

Well they will stand before God in judgment for their misuse but if they want they have plenty of ammunition right within the scriptures themselves. And even quoting Paul even quoting Isaiah there's an indictment against us and all the prophets that they can employ.

The issue is their heart and their intention toward us is evil and they'll be judged for that. So how does God.

Look at a so-called Christian that hates the Jew and wants to persecute the Jew.

In the name of God yeah well they'll still suffer for that because we are still his chosen people in the apple of his eye and he's jealous over us and they will bring upon their own heads and eternally the consequence of that hatred.

But I think one thing that we need to consider is that anti-Semitism itself is part of the judgment that has haunted us and followed us throughout the ages and in every nation where we have been cast.

And that when Jesus wept over Jerusalem maybe not the least of that weeping was when we missed the day of our visitation is that he foresaw prophetically what would befall us as being a peep out in the nations and conspicuous for our differences.

And that there would be necessarily and inevitably hatred. All the kinds of things that would be generated by the way that we would stand out as the square peg in the round hole we could not fit in to Gentile society or Christian society.

And the suspicion about us the wells being poisoned attitude toward the goyim would make us candidates for the kind of irritation and resentment that could find its expression in anti-Semitism.

But if it's part of the judgment of God why should a Christian even share the gospel with a Jew? I'm sorry? If it's part of the judgment of God why should a Christian even share the gospel with a Jew?

Well, God would have as many as will to be saved. There's still a remnant that needs to be sought and it's the first obligation and mandate of the church to promulgate the gospel to the Jewish people.

At the same time, there's the hatred against us, there's the church that seeks our salvation and that even that activity will be misconstrued and looked upon as being anti-Semitic as the recent determination of the Southern Baptists to witness the Jews.

I found it pretty interesting. I heard the head of the Southern Baptist organization on a secular talk show on that subject with a debate with the Rabbi and I heard him say the Rabbi said, oh, you feel our religion this traditional Judaism, you feel our religion is defective and so the head of the Southern Baptist said, oh, absolutely not.

It's wonderful, we just want you to add Jesus to it. What would you say to the head of the Southern Baptist?

It's a cheapy answer. I would have agreed with the Rabbi. Yes, your religion is defective it's intrinsically defective. You've rejected your very God in the name of the defense of Judaism, you have formulated a rabbinical alternative to a biblical faith and rejected the Messiah promised by those scriptures.

Yes, and if that were not so, for his brethren's sake if all you need is a little.

Bookkeeping, a little... Listen, the Southern Baptist will not be endeared with the traditional Jewish community by anything short of.