Sean DeMars v Joe Rigney - Part 2

Here in duckburg all right all right all right. Let's get to it today. Happy uh happy monday. I guess it's a happy monday. Hope you had a good weekend. Good lord's day. Good everything. Today is going to be a good week.

God willing uh got lots of uh lots of work planned ahead of us. And then this weekend is going to be opening day for little league which is going to be a lot of fun when my uh my second youngest son is going to start t-ball play t-ball for the first time.

He's very excited and uh. And then my uh my two older sons are on the same little league team which is going to be good. What one is a little too old for the league he's in but i really wanted him on the same team and and my my younger one is not quite ready for the next step and so you know we'll have the older one kind of take a step back for a little bit give him an opportunity to be uh one of the better players on the team which is which is going to be good but uh in any case uh let's uh let's jump to it today.

Evangelical Discourse and Theological Triaging

We're going to do part two of uh the sean demars doug wilson uh room for nuanced conversation and i've had a chance to talk to quite a few people about it and um most people um are kind of approaching it like i am where they're just very impressed with sean for even being willing to have a conversation like this.

I did see a few people reached out to me and we're very uh not happy with sean. Um not because he talked to doug but because of how he uh you know conducted himself and well i'm sure we'll get to that stuff.

I'm just not trying to be critical here um so much because even excuse me even having the conversation is um yeah you got to take your hats off to the guy for that but uh we'll get to it. We'll get to it.

But uh in any case uh let's jump into it today. We're going to talk about theological triage. You know they just got done talking about i'm sorry uh. Evangelical discourse. Yeah we're gonna talk about evangelical discourse.

And uh so uh let's uh let's see where this goes basically saying like people are trying to have difficult conversations on a on a time crunch. Like somebody writes a book about racial reconciliation in the church and they're like all right come on our show you have 15 minutes 15 minutes talking about nuance race in the church.

You think we. Yeah. So let's let's let's have a long conversation about a complex issue. Right. Uh. And and i think what you said is exactly right brother we want room for nuance precisely so that we can get to the truth not so we can obfuscate the truth.

Right. Uh. Good.

Stuff. Good stuff. Yeah i mean listen you know you you work with what you have. Right. So people have a short attention span these days and you you work with it. You know you do what you can you say the truth you know it's a complex issue whatever.

But you do what you can. And so. Uh i'm not one of these guys that wants to buck the trends. Look if you don't have a long attention span to do an eight-part series on sean demars then that's okay. Then my stuff is not for you that's okay.

Um but i try to be. I try to be brief and concise and pithy just doesn't always work.

Out that way what you said is noted and i will try to be as wise and discerning as i can in the use of that word. Uh let's let's talk a little bit about evangelical discourse at at large right now. Uh doug i remember uh i remember i don't know how long ago it was but you had a pretty long back and forth with tibetan abuela i did about your views on racism and slavery and the history of that in our country and i remember reading those at the time blown away by the charity the grace the love the patience the unity that was on display that couldn't happen today.

No and.

And it came to sort of a crashing halt after because tabidi got the treatment. With the nuanced treatment he got tabidi got worked over. What do you mean he got. We're going to start talking about.

The embargo and uh and the things that uh big eva which allegedly doesn't exist uh the things that big eva does to um to really uh isolate uh doug wilson and his friends as much as possible um and uh i've seen this firsthand myself now when i came on the scene you know hardly anybody knew who i was.

And then when i joined the uh the the the fight lafitte's network i didn't really have good relationships with big eva people anymore because i i had kind of done my own thing and i wasn't part of uh doug's circle in any way um but i was doing things that they had deemed you know inappropriate you know i how dare you criticize russell moore how dare you criticize matt chandler who are you.

And so when i when i joined the fight last feast network uh it was no big thing you know i wasn't connected in those ways before but i did have uh some big eva connections uh before i came online you know so they were okay with me once uh before i you know started speaking my opinions but once i did they kind of disconnected and disowned me um but i've seen this firsthand you know i i there's a guy and i'm not going to name him that i was very close to and uh at one point in time you know he um he had quoted doug wilson favor favorably um and it was uh it was the kind of thing that gets like the me too you know whiny uh ladies you know of both genders all up in a up in a tizzy and um and then at the time you know he took a lot of heat for quoting doug favorably and um and so and and i happen to know that doug uh actually reached out to him and said hey you know like all right the mob's coming you know i mean just so you know um and you know here's the a good way to handle it here's some advice on how to handle it and it was probably really good advice.

I wasn't privy to the interaction but it was probably really good advice because if anybody knows how to handle a a mob of screeching women of both genders um it's doug right um but what this man chose to do instead was to oh i'm so sorry i didn't mean it i didn't mean it and and and say that you know yeah he you know doug's a very dangerous guy and this and that and all that he got the treatment and he decided to choose he chose poorly let's put it that way um and so yeah this this whole the treatment thing this is all real it's obviously real um but he's going to start talking about it and so it should be pretty funny.

His people by his constituency being willing to talk with me. He um in today's discourse he platformed me he treated me with respect. I treated him with respect. I thought it was a stellar oh um i was just very horrified by that exchange.

Yeah and i would have wanted to publish it in a book. Oh absolutely um. But uh to bd didn't agree. And it was because he people he he was at the bottom of a dog pile. Yeah um. Because he you know how dare he uh yeah do what he did.

Do you remember what.

Year that was or roundabout 2013. Oh thank you it's it's amazing. You know like it's this is this is so typical of of big eva trained people. So it's big eva but also the people that big eva has catechized over the years.

Um but they're always talking about grace they're always talking about uh respect and charity and all of these things but they don't know how to actually show it to someone who's more conservative than they are.

They have no idea how to do it and actually maybe they do have an idea how to do. They just refuse to do it. And um and then you got doug and his friends that you know we don't really talk about charity and and and and respectfulness that much.

Um it's certainly not our tagline or whatever. But we show it. But we show it. You know i had a quite a few people recently i don't know if the algorithm picked it back up but a few people had had reached out to me about my conversations with uh with with ruslan.

And by the way a lot of people are telling me ruslan's getting a lot better. And i believe it. I believe it because i i think ruslan is a genuine guy you know what i mean. And so when you got someone who's a genuine guy i think you tend to to get better uh over over time.

Maybe that's just me being naive but i've heard that's what i've heard i've heard he's gotten better over time. But anyway my conversation with ruslan i recently i had like three or four people reach out to me and say hey man i just wanted to say like man you had a lot of patience you had a lot of grace a lot of of of i don't really know any other words to describe it but you you just displayed a lot of uh restraint uh in that conversation and i i really appreciate that feedback because i was really trying i was really trying.

I know a lot of people wanted me to go in there and start throwing fists and stuff. You know metaphorically speaking of course in minecraft um but i went into there not wanting to do that and so i didn't and uh you know it's just so funny how it always happens that way you know what i mean it always happens that way.

Oh i didn't. He was this guy autistic. I well you got a nerd i was in the middle over here. I didn't catch that the first time i didn't catch that the first time that was funny. So rigney rigney knows the date instantly sean goes what are you autistic.

You got a neurodivergent over here. I wouldn't even have said that that's good stuff sean. Man man that was really good. What are you. This guy autistic middle of behind it like i was like all.

Of that sort of stuff. Um doug came out to minneapolis and his presence was a problem. Um because it was uh you know gonna um ruffle feathers in the african-american community where.

Um our pastors had been. Can i can i just say too that uh that i listen like nothing against joe rigney. I got nothing against him um but i've just never listened to him ever. Um but man i i'm impressed i am really impressed.

He's got just such a a nice way about him where he's like warm but also very like calculated and hardcore. Like i just i really like it. I'm just gonna say has he always been this way or is this new. And i saw like uh someone on twitter say like like his eye contact game alone could get you in the fetal position in five seconds.

Like it's just he's intense. Has joe always been this way. I gotta meet joe. This is like an intense guy. But he's. But he's intense in like the best way possible just like so warm as well. Very impressive.

Very.

Impressive. Trying to build bridges and and people were reading internet articles and so we organized uh kind of a get together back at one of those maybe 2009 for that one um where there was kind of a back behind the scenes discussion um and then so and and that at some point then eventually led to i think the bd finally saying hey um doug's being mainstreamed enough.

He's speaking at desiring god conferences. He was writing articles for desiring god and for tgc. I think. Did you write for tgc. Ever. I think once. I think he wrote for so there was a season. See if it's still.

Yeah right.

I doubt it. Yeah. So um that was another good one. Sean man you gotta give sean credit man. He he did a good job here. Gotta check to see if it's still there. Yeah it's probably not. Put it that way. Big eva.

Memory holes. Things like there's no tomorrow man. A bit big eva is known for that. Let's check to see if it's still there. So there was a hey this.

Is a big enough deal and the bd thought i need to address it. Head on. And he decided to do so. As a christian and a gentleman like he actually said i'm going to try to. Yeah we this is serious enough that we can't just um you know carpet vomit and make accusations.

Yeah. And then you had this great thing. But it. But it was the pressures to not do that. Yeah we're hard and heavy.

I remember eric mason was supposed to come and speak at in moscow at one point. Uh did he back.

Out for some reason he canceled because the pressure was applied. Basically. Yeah. So. And sometimes that we we don't have a way of knowing uh how much pressure it took. It might just be. Hey did you ever did you know who these guys are.

Yeah. Uh. And he backs out. Or it could be i want to go. You really. Better. Not. I want to go. You really. Um we've had we've had numerous cancellations. Uh people this is what we call the embargo. Okay.

Um. And the embargo. Basically this this touches on something joe and i were talking about. Is that when uh in your interview with ligand duncan he's got a personal relationship with keller. He knows him and he can say we differ on a bunch of stuff.

But i'm i know him. Yeah i'm not really sure what's going on there. And the same thing with frame. I know i know him i've got all kinds of differences with him but i know him. And there are people who cannot afford to be in a relationship with me because they'd get to know me and i'd get to know them.

And all of a sudden they would be uh sort of on the chopping block for because they.

Would have to if they had integrity i can figure this out. Hold on i'm back couldn't pile on and.

The one basically in the whole evangelical world and i'll say this to my dying day give him all kinds of credit is john piper. Yeah. Uh john piper was the only one in that whole constellation of first tier conference speaker types who took the trouble to pursue clarity.

Yeah. Right. And it's not like it's not like he agreed. What. Yeah. It's not once he gets clarity it's not like he won't tell. Yeah man you're all messed up on this. Yeah. Um. But john disagrees with you like a christian scholar and a gentleman.

And he and he does it within the context of a personal relationship. And that personal relationship uh cannot be allowed to form in this uh day and age uh because once it forms there would be people who start saying you know they're not so bad they're not orcs out in.

Moscow yeah yeah that was the most illuminating thing like your interview with ligand for me was really illuminating because of that contrast between the way and and that the the thing that was in play was the face-to-face interaction.

I so it was yeah that was that was a really.

Important part of that whole video and if you remember uh when i when i addressed that part um what i was saying was that was an intentional sort of contrast that they were that they were making um a huge part of this right.

So he's got tim keller on the one hand he's got this personal relationship and it's wonderful. And then he's got these moscow guys which he says essentially are demons um and he treats him like that. He treats him like the unwashed the unclean you know they're tax collectors kind of thing um and it's just so like and and and and you know ligand was so um how do i what's the word like he was just so brazen about that that he was presenting it as if this was an example of christian um uh behavior and it's just such the opposite of what christian behavior is.

It's just very very i mean ligand's ligand's presentation there was so upside down it was very satanic in my opinion um to do that and so um yeah that was rigney's dead on there. That was so illuminating to see how because every listen you might not hate the the friend enemy distinction.

You might not like the friend enemy distinction and the no enemies to the right stuff but everybody does it. Everybody has a friend enemy distinction it's just some people are honest about it and other peoples want to pretend like it's it's not what it is.

It is what it is.

Yeah whatever. Keller teaching with keller. That said. Hey this is a big issue. We disagree on woman's ordination and deaconesses or whatever. Um but we i know him and he's a christian brother. The same thing showed up with the in the second version with frame and mcleod and um robert raymond who he had big disagreements on the doctrine of the trinity on you know doctrine of god stuff.

Right. Yeah. So he was like i i'm not with them i'm with the confessions not with them but i have all the affection in the world for them. And so it was like so he. So it was clear he's capable of that.

And for me it helped to shed light on the embargo. It's why those guys won't accept the invitations to come out here. Why. When we're coming out there those invitations aren't given. Um. But what's interesting in the present.

I mean you're here so there is an element of like there's a next generation of guys who don't who didn't. Um carpet bomb. I think some of this does go back to federal vision stuff where because everybody was calling saying heresy heresy heresy.

At this point it would. If to personalize him or anybody that's associated with fv would require probably a walk back because as you got in if you had the conversation if you had the debate and you real and and we keep amening stuff then it makes it really hard to.

Go you guys are heretics. It might be. Oh yeah. Joe joe is onto something here too. He's very very perceptive again. I'm very impressed with joe rigney. Let me know has he always been this way. I don't know.

I have no idea um but but i think joe rigney's onto something there. I think a lot of the the the thing with doug wilson had you know it's something that happened in the past and they went really far.

And um the thing about big eva is that they never ever apologize never. They're always right. They're always right. And they cannot ever take say i got some egg on my face. That was a big mistake. Like liggen needs to do that with with this about this this whole uh appearance on on room for nuance he lied numerous times objective obvious clear lies he was deceptive so deceptive.

And for someone who preaches the right gospel and has the right idea of grace he sure doesn't act like it because the beautiful thing about grace is when you get on this video and you freaking make a mistake it's very very available very very apparent what the next step is you get on the video again and say man i made a mistake i went too far.

I was unclear i was deceptive i shouldn't have done that. Still don't like doug still don't like the moscow mood. But i went too far. That's what you do unless you're part of big eva. Because then you never can do that because you have such a fragile a fragile grip on your power and your authority.

And so you think that if you were to admit a mistake that that would that would be the end. A lot of these men are very insecure very insecure you've got if you if you change your position on something pretty much across the board you have to pretend like i never changed the position.

I just i you know i'm just maybe i'm nuancing it differently. I've never changed i've always been this way. But that's changing. Man god bless these guys. Some of these guys are changing their ways. God is so good man god is so good.

And so while i would be completely shocked if liggan ever apologized for the deception that he perpetrated on sean demar's show i'd be shocked. I'd fall out of my chair. It is like god to do something like that.

And i think sean's appearance here is is a change. Um that maybe it's because of the next generation he wasn't involved in the federal vision controversy. Maybe that's part of it. That's what joe seems to think.

But man some of these guys are doing it. Man did you see andrew walker's article about um saying i was wrong about you know saying that getting vaccines or masking or whatever it was was uh a way to love your neighbor.

I was dead wrong about that. Do you remember when he said that and we did a video about it because it was a complete joke it was a complete joke. And instead of quietly changing his position and instead of you know you know just ignoring it for the rest of time which is standard big eva operating procedure.

Andrew walker who is big eva adjacent there's no question about he's adjacent. He wrote an article drawing attention to his mistake and he said no i was wrong about that. And here's why i was wrong. And now i'm retracting it because i put a burden on you that i ought not to have done and i was wrong and man i i already had a lot of respect for andrew walker because he's done some things in the last few years that i think have been very impressive.

But man it went through the roof. That was so white pill that was so white pill that i emailed him and i said andrew dude that article blessed me so much was such an encouragement it was such a it's i was so i was floored man thank you and he sent me a nice email back you know and whatever but um and you know don't go if you're big eva listening to this because i know some of you guys do i know for a fact i know for a fact some i'm not going to name any names but i know some of you guys do don't go after him saying he's friends with ad and you know ad's a accuser.

He's not we're not friends but he treats me like a human being. He treats me like a freaking human being. He doesn't i don't think he dislikes me either but we're not friends put it that way so don't go putting any pressure on him.

But man this is changing man i am so white pill guys you have no idea i'm so white pill and it's not just because the mets took two out of three in los angeles.

Although that helps. Oh emphasis differences or you want to accent that or accent that and it would be clear that oh that we're actually christian brothers who can disagree charitably like lots of christians do everywhere else right.

But that that. But the wall already went up and so now efforts have to be made to make sure it does. But there's another generation coming up for whom that's not that. History's not there. That big issue is not the same.

They they actually are listening.

More carefully trying to understand they won't have to walk anything back right. And they just got.

Here they just got here so they don't have to walk anything back and so it's possible to actually come have the conversations in ways that it wouldn't be for that older generation. The other.

Thing to look at how gracious these guys are. They're not like telling them to walk it back or anything like they're just whatever. We'll still treat you. Well even though you've said all these things about us that aren't true.

Whatever. But listen let me i'll tell you you need to walk some of that stuff back. Man. You need to do the thing. Grab your grab your uh big boy pants. Put them on and say man i was wrong. Is that so hard.

Is that you got grace. Man. That's the beauty of grace. You admit your mistakes you move on. It's not like god won't forgive you. It's not like doug won't treat you. Well he of course he will. Man is that so hard.

I thought we were christians here.

Federal Vision, Justification, and the Need for Repentance

Tag on to this. It's really striking. Uh and i pointed this out in my review of woke church and and liggs um forward to woke church. Is that all the things he's concerned about in the federal vision are a glaring grease fire in eric mason's book the deke i worth the what justification means.

Uh it's sort of like okay you can be as wobble i'm on justification forensic justification punctilio justification. I'm a westminsterian right right down the line. And eric mason's fooling around with it in all the ways that federal vision people were accused of fooling around with it eric mason really does just from a different angle.

Well it was the justification is.

Both uh a status and an action and righteousness is both intrinsic and extrinsic. And there's and and there's confusions all built up in it. He's quoting um fleming rutledge anglican priestess and ernest caseman who's a you know new perspective proto new perspective sort of guy.

So all of that's in that book which if it had been him if i'd written that would have gotten the treatment but it got it got passed over and it was nuanced right. And and so. And i think the same thing's true even of like someone like piper because piper gets criticized roundly by certain reform types for judge his view of judgment according to works um that there's a concern that he's going to compromise justification by faith alone and his definition of saving faith because it has to include affections which includes the affections which is a treasuring christ.

And it's professors at rts you know so it's um fesco and waters who have really we had a debate uh at ets two years ago that i moderated between john and those two guys on the saving faith book. And those guys were i mean they were they were cordial and they were um gracious in the sense they were treating john like a brother but they were really at you know adamant this is a big deal.

You're smuggling love and you're smuggling things into the definition of faith. This is proto-roman catholic like they're. Those are the kinds of criticism they're making. But ligon has no problem associating with john you know being friends with john.

But it's a different sort of thing because the wall went up when it did and now it has to be maintained.

Yeah i think i think that's part of it. Um and we're gonna we're gonna stop here that's definitely part of it about that wall i think he's onto something there but i don't think it's the whole story. I i think also um when you look at john piper versus doug wilson um there is a different style you know what i mean and i think there's a different target audience as well.

Um like doug said you know i'm writing for a certain audience um and so um doug doug has this extra kind of um sinister nature because he doesn't use their style john piper does john piper uses the style of big eva.

Yeah even though he's um in in my opinion um better in a lot of ways than big eva he does use their style. Doug doesn't at all at all and so and i think it my criticism of liggan during the initial room for nuanced podcast was that uh he's he's so he's so deluded himself to think that his style is actually part of the commands of god and so if someone doesn't use his style then they're they're they're actually disobeying god.

And it's very similar to what the pharisees would do that they would you know their their traditions and their and their that that became on par with god's law. And so you don't follow their traditions.

Well then you're actually not following god. Um traditions are important i think you know for in a lot of ways um but once you kind of make that step to make them part of god's law uh you're doing something that is uh not no bueno no bueno especially when those traditions oftentimes overturn the law of god.

But um but yeah man yeah the the big lesson here is like yeah i i agree with rickney like they don't want to they don't want to admit they were wrong. I mean uh liggan duncan didn't even admit he was wrong about the attributing john the baptist or jesus's words to john the baptist making some kind of weird convoluted point he still thinks he's right about that he made the right point but he you know he made up he was making some different point but he wasn't doing that because he the whole purpose of saying it was to make a different point.

And if he made the point that he says he was trying to make now it renders his entire presentation on moscow completely irrelevant and completely nonsensical. But man now good stuff good stuff let me know again if i skipped anything that you definitely want me to cover i will definitely do it.

Well i will consider doing it. I'll definitely consider doing it. But again hats that was a pretty good pretty couple pretty good lines in there. Sean um yeah yeah you better be careful because that's not the style it's not the style of big eva to be using words like autistic and neurodivergent in that kind of a way.

It's a joke. They're not gonna they're not gonna be too pleased with that. But man i hope joe rickney's right i hope i hope it's a generational thing and uh we'll be rid of this big eva standard operating procedure book uh forever in the near future god willing man i hope it happens hope it happens.

In any case hope you found this video helpful. God bless.