End Abortion Now - Q & A with Jeff Durbin

Alright guys, welcome to our live stream Q &A for our upcoming event, End Abortion Now. You guys can go to endabortionnow .com to get more details, all the necessary information for you guys to get connected on April 8th at 5pm Pacific and 8pm Eastern is up at endabortionnow .com.

Encourage you guys to share that link, let people know across the nation, churches, small groups, families, including Abortion Mill Ministries. It's a perfect opportunity to get together and to watch the live stream.

It's going to be basically from 5 o 'clock Arizona time, Pacific time, till about 9pm. I want to let you guys know who's going to be in attendance. We're flying out some speakers that are going to join us for this event to speak on a host of different issues.

I'll tell you the list of speakers in just a moment here, but the event itself here in Arizona, we're calling together people who are part of the Pro-Life Coalition. This is an event brought to you by Arizona Right to Life and Apologia Church.

And so it's going to have pro-life groups from all over Arizona in attendance. We're hoping to get a lot of legislators in attendance as well. We're in communication with some of them right now and some others.

So you guys will be able to actually view this entire event live streamed on Apologia Studios YouTube channel. So basically just keep your eye out for Apologia Studios, our YouTube channel, 5pm Pacific.

Time.

That's when we're starting, 8 o 'clock Eastern. And we're going to have speakers besides myself. I'll be speaking on the foundations of this fight. And so the question is, how should Christians engage in this fight against abortion to save these babies' lives, to bring justice for these babies?

Sixty million babies and counting dead, slaughtered in our nation. We have to think about how serious that is and how this is not something that we can think about as Christians, just in theory, babies might die.

Sixty million little image bearers of God have been slaughtered in our nation. They've been pulled apart, their arms and legs taken off their bodies. They've been disemboweled, decapitated. And that's the sort of thing that happens on a regular basis.

And so the question is, how as Christians ought we to pursue ending abortion and pursuing justice for these children? So I'll be starting with the biblical foundations. What is abortion from a biblical worldview?

And the only meaningful worldview, abortion is murder. It's the destruction of a child. A mother and a father deliver their child over to be slaughtered. And so we're going to talk about that foundations from the scriptures.

What does God say about life in the womb? And our contention is as Christians, we ought to be fighting against abortion consistently as Christians. Jesus said, very specifically, he said there's two kinds of foundations in life.

One is a rock and one is sand. And there's a wise person and there's a foolish one. And the wise person makes it through the storm, the foolish one ends up in desolation. So we stand on the word of God in this fight against abortion.

And no matter how you take it, Genesis to Revelation, abortion is murder. It is premeditated murder. And so we want to, as Christians, approach this entire issue, standing on the rock, calling abortion what it is.

It's murder of an innocent human being. And we want to talk about what it means as believers to bring justice to these children, for these children. And in doing that, we're going to start and lay out the foundations.

What does God call it? What does God say to us about our role as Christians when people are being led to the.

Slaughter?

I'm going to read you a passage right here. It's considered a foundational fighting verse in the fight against abortion in our nation. It's Proverbs 24, starting in verse 11.

It says,.

Rescue those who are being taken away to death. Hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, behold, we did not know this, does not he who weighs the heart perceive.

It?

Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it? And will he not repay man according to his work? Now this, among a host of other passages, we can go to, to demonstrate that God calls us not to simply be pro-life in our churches, in our Christian ghettos, with our Christian friends.

We're not called to be pro-life at Starbucks with our friends. Although that's a good thing, be pro-life at Starbucks with your friends, but we're called to be pro-life in the sense that we actually hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.

If that doesn't speak directly to this issue, I don't know what does. And we are called as Christians to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. And so this really is ultimately like the quintessential Christian issue.

I mean, what is more demonstrative of loving neighbor like you love yourself than going to rescue the unborn from being slaughtered, from being murdered by their own parents and a person who is hired to assassinate them.

And so we're going to, again, talk about, what do we call it?

Murder.

And you might be asking the question, why does Jeff keep saying it? Well, I'm saying it because, believe it or not, the pro-life movement, largely, largely, not completely, but largely has rejected the notion that we need to fight against abortion in our nation in terms of calling it murder and criminalizing it.

And believe it or not, if you're new to this fight, it was a surprise to me a couple of years ago, really getting into this fight on the front lines at the abortion clinic. It was a surprise to me to see pro-life ministries unwilling to call the destruction of our own children murder.

You can look at the film made by my good friend Marcus Pittman, Babies Are Murdered Here. It's available on YouTube. You can just go, Babies Are Murdered Here, type it in, you can watch the entire film.

For free.

One of the things that Marcus did very well in that film is he exposed, really, the inconsistencies of the pro-life movement in this respect. We treat the woman as a victim in this. We don't treat the woman as the perpetrator of a crime against her own child.

And the pro-life movement, again, largely has done that. They've sort of given the idea to the mainstream that, well, we're not saying that this is a crime in respect to the mother. We're saying that it ought to just be stopped, that we want it ended in our nation.

We just want it to stop. And we're not calling it murder. We just don't think that you should kill your babies. Recently, I had an interview over half an hour in length with Tony Lounger, the vice president of National Right to Life.

We did our best to be gracious to this gentleman, and we did our best to let him know that we're grateful for everything that he has done to save any baby's lives. But Tony Lounger really demonstrated in that interview what the pro-life movement does largely in this fight, and that is that they will not call it murder.

Some people in the pro-life movement do, of course. But they will not, again, generally speaking, fight against this as, let's criminalize abortion because it's murder. In my interview with Tony Lounger, he said that he believed that the abortionist, yeah, we should prosecute the abortionist, maybe not for murder, but certainly not the woman.

And now, I'm going to read you some stuff that's happened today, today. This has just come across the newsfeed today. Candidate for president, Donald Trump, was asked a question about abortion, and he came out, and he said that he did actually, in fact, want abortion to be banned, which was surprising to me.

And I thought, when I first saw it, praise God. That's amazing. I didn't necessarily expect that from Donald Trump, so that's good. But he said that he did believe that women ought to be prosecuted at that point for having an abortion.

And you think, hooray, right? We're getting somewhere. Donald Trump, right? Ban abortions and criminalize the behavior and prosecute those who would do it. Interestingly, you did get the common responses from, say, Cecil Richards of Planned Parenthood.

But I think, not surprising to those of us who were in this fight, but maybe surprising to some of you guys who were new to the fight, were the responses from pro-life organizations, major, large pro-life organizations that are in this fight and have been in this fight for a long time.

I'll give you this from National Right to Life, same organization, by the way, of Tony Lounger, who we interviewed. This was the statement from Carol Tobias. The National Right to Life Committee unequivocally opposes the killing of innocent unborn children and works unceasingly to have them protected in law.

Unborn children and their mothers are victims in an abortion. Let me read that line again. Unborn children and their mothers are victims in an abortion. In adopting statutes prohibiting the performance of abortions, National Right to Life has long opposed the imposition of penalties on the women on whom an abortion is attempted or.

Performed.

The woman, sorry, the woman on whom an abortion is attempted or performed, rather penalties should be imposed against any abortionist who would take the life of an unborn child in defiance of statutes prohibiting abortions.

National Right to Life backed state and federal legislation such as the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act and the Dismemberment Abortion Ban is targeted at stopping abortionists. That's from National Right to Life.

That's common fair in this fight against abortion in the pro-life movement nationwide. Common fair. This was National Right to Life. I believe it's a tweet. National Right to Life, punish abortionists, not women.

March for Life in response to Trump. No pro-lifer would ever want to punish a woman who has chosen abortion. This is against the very nature of what we are about. Hashtag pro-life. This is from March for Life again.

Women who have chosen abortion need healing and compassion, not punishment. Let me just say this to start as I respond to that. As Christians, we believe that women who have had abortions need the gospel.

They need to know that there's forgiveness, there's eternal life as a gift of God's grace apart from any work of law because of the work of Jesus. They need to turn from their sin, all sin in their life, not just the sin of abortion, but all sin.

They need to turn from sin to put their faith in Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. But they need to repent of murder, murdering their own child. Women are not victims in abortion. Are there cases where there are some women who have been victimized by abortion?

I think yes. I think women who are in the sex trade, who may have their pimps who force them to have an abortion, we can certainly call those women victims in some sense. We can call young women, maybe 12 years old, who are forced into an abortion by their parent.

Possibly we can say those are situations where the woman is a victim because they're being forced outside of their own will to do something to their own child. But let's be honest. Women in America have abortions because they don't want their children.

Women in America want abortion on demand without apology for any reason, ultimately. That's the stated goal of these pro-choice organizations. And when we think about what we see outside of the abortion clinic, every Saturday in Arizona at Planned Parenthood, we see women who are not victims.

We see women yelling out to us, I know this is murder. I can kill my baby if I want to. We see women boasting in the fact that they're murdering their children, bragging about it as they're going in. We see people saying vile things to us.

When we talk about babies that are being dismembered behind those walls, we see people, and forgive me for telling you, but you need to know what's said outside these abortion clinics, we see people yelling back to us.

That sounds delicious. These are the things that are said outside of abortion clinics. We hear people saying to us outside of an abortion clinic, this just happened to one of our members of our church just a couple weeks ago, Zach, when he was out proclaiming the gospel and to the abortion clinic, we heard a woman say back to him, baby lover.

I mean, this is the sort of thing that happens in an abortion clinic. Abortion is undeniably murder. And it is women, it is men, it is mothers and fathers that are delivering their own children over to death, and we can stop it.

Now, as Christians, what do we believe about how we stop it?

We stop it because of the gospel.

We stop it because we want people to know Christ and be saved and delivered from their sins and reconciled to God. We stop it by going to the front lines of where it actually takes place. Apologia Church, for the last couple of years, has gone out to abortion clinics in our state.

We've seen over 50 babies saved from death at abortion clinics in Arizona. That's just from the work of Apologia Church. That's just what we know of. And as a result of our ministry and us talking about it on our radio program at ApologiaRadio .com or our television program, over 20 ministries have started nationwide to abortion clinics in the United States.

And so we don't even know how many babies have been saved from that. So what do we believe? We believe we have to go with the gospel, call it murder, offer the gospel so that the people know there's forgiveness in Christ, but also we offer help.

We offer help to these women. We offer even to adopt their babies. So that's the first line. If you want to know what's the very first thing, Jeff, that you would say we need to do as Christians, I'd say the very first thing is we need to go to where they're being killed and we need to bring the gospel and offer everything we possibly can to help these women and to let them know that they're loved by us and that there's concern for them in our hearts that we want to help them.

But we need to try to rescue these babies and save their lives.

We need to go.

We do.

And we need to actually protect these babies as much as we possibly can. But the next thing we need to do is we need to make sure that we're telling the truth about abortion in our nation. We ought to use every tool available that God has given to us.

We ought to speak about it on our social media. We ought to talk about it at our churches. We ought to make sure we let people know what it really means to kill your child in the.

Womb.

We ought to expose the culture to it. One of my friends, Jason Walsh, who's actually with Arizona Right to Life, used to be with the Center for Bioethical Reform. And one of the things that they try to do is expose our nation to the brutality of abortion, showing people what's really happening with abortion.

Yes, it's shocking. Yes, it's ugly. But we need to expose people to the truth of what it looks like to slaughter your own.

Child.

And that's the next line, I think, is to make sure that we're constantly telling the world what does God say about this? What is it? We need to stop it. And this is the gospel. The next thing is, here we go, what we want to do in terms of the paradigm shift in the area of the pro-life movement in America.

You heard just a couple things in response to what happened with Donald Trump, how the pro-life movement generally responds. We're not looking to criminalize the mother. They won't really call it murder.

They treat the women as though they're victims. The paradigm shift is thinking like a Christian consistently in this area. What does God call it? It's murder. What is the role, in Romans 13, of the civil magistrate?

The civil magistrate is called God's servant. The word is deacon, actually, God's servant. And God's servant, the civil magistrate, God's servant is supposed to bring justice. That's the role of God's servant.

Now notice that it's called God's servant, not some other God's servant, but God's servant to bring justice. So the civil magistrate does have the responsibility before God to preserve justice in a society.

And it's God's servant. And so what does God say about abortion? It's murder. What ought we to do about it? We ought to stop it immediately. And incremental policies, let's be honest, have not stopped 60 million babies from being.

Killed.

Let me just say that with humility and with respect to those of you guys that may have fought this way in the past. Is it true that some babies have been saved because of the incremental policies? Yeah, it's true.

Some babies have been saved. And praise God for that. In his providence, he has worked through inconsistent means to save babies' lives.

Amen.

But 60 million babies is not by any stretch a success. It is not a success. 60 million babies is not a success. And when we say the incremental policies are the way to go, we are denying the next 10 million babies, the next 20 million babies their right to live.

And so the pro-life movement often says, well, we just want it ended. We don't necessarily want it criminalized as a first-degree murder charge. We just want it ended. And let me just say, the pro-choice movement sees that.

They know that weakness and they capitalize on it. When the pro-life movement says we don't want to call it murder and the woman is a victim, the pro-choice movement knows that's their victory. Because listen, if this isn't a criminal issue, then it doesn't need to be stopped.

If it's not murder, then it doesn't need to be stopped. Because if it's just our preference that people stop killing their babies, then no legislator actually works to end abortion now. Because we have to ask ourselves the question, are we committed to abortion being ended in our nation and committed to doing what it takes to end it, committed to suffering all the consequences that come along with speaking honestly about this?

Or is it just a preference for us in the pro-life movement? We would prefer you didn't kill your babies.

We just prefer it.

So the question is, are we committed to ending abortion or is it only a preference? And our movement in this area is to end abortion immediately, now, at the state level, calling it murder and focusing on legislation that would criminalize the performing of an abortion in any state.

And again, that's what I'll be speaking on essentially, the role of the civil magistrates and what God calls abortion and what God calls us to do in light of abortion in our nation. But let me tell you some of the speakers that are coming.

Matthew Truwella, you can get him at CourtsCannotMakeLaws .com. He's really well known as being an expert in the area of the civil magistrates and he's an expert in the area of demonstrating that in God's word, we have the specific role of the civil magistrate to interpose between tyranny and oppression and injustice.

And so he's going to be speaking on that from an historic and biblical perspective. We're also going to be having Rusty Thomas, my good friend from Operation Save America. Rusty Thomas is a passionate man.

He's been in this fight for a very, very, very long time. And he's a veteran in this fight. We're also going to be having some stuff from Herb Titus. Herb Titus is an expert in the area of law. He's an attorney and he's going to be speaking about what are the legal issues involved in ending abortion immediately at the state level.

Joel McDermott will be joining us as well from the American Vision. Marcus Pittman, the director and producer of Babies Are Murdered here and me. Here's what we're going to say. We believe that legislators need to, at the state level, not work with incremental policies like, for example, as one example, abortion clinics are really dirty and they need to be cleaner.

And thinking that that will somehow end abortion in your state, it won't end abortion in your state and abortionists find their ways around those things. We want to fight for legislation at the state level that seeks to criminalize abortion at the state level.

And there's a recent bill, SB 1118 in Oklahoma, that sought to do exactly that. And it was essentially hung in midair and suspended in many respects because of the pro-life movement really working against the bill because it would seek to call abortion murder, abolish human abortion.

The people that work with abolish human abortion worked a lot on that bill and are to be commended for that. And that's where that came from. And it hung there in midair. And so what we are seeking to do in Arizona is to do this with the biblical worldview underneath us.

We are seeking to do this with the legislators. We are seeking to do this with the body of Christ. And I think that is going to be a significant difference in terms of how this is approached in the state of Arizona.

We seek to bring the body of Christ into this fight. We seek for this to be a fight with the body of Christ in Arizona. The local churches all involved. And that's one of the important aspects of how this fight has to be won, with the church behind it.

And Francis Schaffer said, over every abortion clinic in America needs to say, is a sign that says, by permission of the church. And we think that's true. And so we want to do this with the scriptures.

We want to do it lawfully. We want to show that it can be done. You can stop abortion at the state level by criminalizing it. And we want to show that it needs to be the church that does it. And so that's kind of what's going to happen.

April the 8th, 5 p .m. Pacific, 8 p .m. Eastern. We're going to have it on our YouTube channel, Apologia Studios. And there you go. There's my spiel.

There you go.

Okay, Marcus.

Now we go to questions.

Now we go to questions.

All right.

Okay.

So the first question is, I guess, ultimately, people are asking, how do you get your church involved if the church isn't involved? So, because we want the churches to be involved.

Yeah.

So, in terms of like, maybe, how do we get our pastors to know about the event?

Yes.

Okay, that's a good question. So what I would do, okay, this is really, really important. It goes back to what I said a moment ago. I think that one of the reasons that SB 1118 didn't do so well in Oklahoma is because not a lot of people knew about it.

Now, obviously, the pro-life groups weren't announcing it because it goes against where they're going in the issue. But the local churches in Oklahoma didn't seem, by and large, really knew a lot about this bill, which is really important that they did know about it so they can contact the legislators in the area to say, yes, so do the bill.

We support it. This is really important. It's very, very important as Christians, if we're already in this fight, that we convince our pastors and local churches that we treat them like we were. And what I mean by that, and I might seem very passionate here, but you've got to catch.

This.

None of us came into this fight against abortion totally consistently. I mean, I was pro-life for like forever, but I wasn't going to abortion clinics. I wasn't trying to end abortion immediately. And God worked in my heart.

God worked in my heart through seeing people outside of abortion clinics saving babies. God worked in my heart through Marcus Pittman's film, Babies Are Murdered Here, to see that we have to do this. And so the babies that have been saved at Apologia Church and all that we've done to talk about it, that's because there were Christians that were in this fight before me that wooed me into this fight.

They didn't condemn me. They wooed me into it. They spoke the truth of God into my life. And so what I would encourage you to do is get a meeting with your pastor immediately. Call your pastor up and say, hey, look, there's this ministry.

It's called Apologia Church. They have an event called End Abortion Now on April the 8th. Let me tell you about what they do. They speak out against this nationwide. They go to abortion clinics. Pastor, they have over 50 babies saved at abortion clinics.

Hey, I have a sermon online. It's on YouTube. It's called The Sermon That Shocked Everyone, I think is what it's called. It has over a million views on YouTube. Share that with your pastor. Share that with the leaders in your church.

Show them, because it tells about what we do, and it has a baby, an actual baby, Carmelo, saved from death at an abortion clinic, literally minutes away from death. It has him come up on stage with his mom, Tina.

And show your pastor that stuff. And let your pastor know, listen, would you just watch this? Consider watching it so you can see what's happening. At least so you're up to date what's going on. And let's have a conversation with our leadership and with people in our church about being a part of justice for the unborn.

And, you know, I will offer this to you right now. If you have a pastor who has questions, I absolutely will make myself available to speak directly with your pastor. I mean, I will organize a phone call to speak to your church.

We will help and offer any kind of support. If your church wants to get together and get a group together and to do this sort of a work, we would love to help you and guide you through that process. Absolutely committed to that.

But I think you can let your pastors and leaders know that it's happening. You can maybe send them some of our radio shows that we do, theologyorradio .com. You can send them the sermon I'm referring to to show them that, yes, we can save babies at abortion clinics.

And you can ask them, can we get together some groups with the church and watch this live stream event to at least create a conversation. Those are the steps I would take to begin with.

Yeah, so how do we affect legislators to end abortion when judges and even Republicans don't vote or give opinions that are biblical?

Well, that's the important aspect of what makes this different. One of the things that Tony Lowenger said on our interview with him is his assumption when we get five Supreme Court justices that agree that abortion should be ended.

I will remind all of us that it was Republicans oftentimes that elected or brought some of these judges, these Supreme Court judges, into their positions and we're at where we're at today in the area of abortion because of some of these judges.

Brothers and sisters, if we wait until five Supreme Court judges agree with us or any higher court agrees with us in the area of abortion, we're not ending abortion. Anytime soon. That's just, it won't happen.

How do we end abortion? What is the role to enact justice and to protect life and liberty and justice for those underneath them? And so while legislators who call abortion murder and they want it ended immediately, they submit legislation that would criminalize abortion, the performing of an abortion, calling it murder in our state.

And you have, the way our government was set up, those lesser magistrates, those in the Senate and everything else, those that would actually vote on that legislation, calling it a criminal charge. And people say, well, wouldn't a higher court strike it down?

It's an important element that people need to understand. Just in regard to Matthew Trewella speaking on how courts cannot make laws, this whole discussion needs to be understood. The civil magistrate has the duty before God to protect life and justice.

In a higher court,.

Mothers and dads' response is this. The lesser magistrates object. And someone might say, this is kind of ruling because it is law-less. We can demonstrate biblically that mothers and fathers are not at fight.

Let a higher court demand that mothers and fathers be allowed to have that fight against that higher court before the Washington court is courageous enough to take this step to defend these babies. It's up to the local magistrates to offer their legislation that criminalizes it.

It's up to local sheriffs to enforce and continue to prosecute it in that case. And so it's something that needs to take place at the state level. And is it lawful? Absolutely. And we're going to demonstrate.

That it's lawful.

There's no question it's going to be done. But somebody said to me, radical and it seems big and it seems like it's going to create controversy.

Yes, it is.

And brothers and sisters, when Jesus called us to come to Him, to believe in Him, He said you must come and die. You don't come. Believe it or not, you've counted the cost of what it means to follow Jesus.

Jesus said, Matthew 25, He will say at the last day, as He vindicates His saints, that they visited Him, gave Him something to drink, doing for these children as though we were doing it for Christ. And yes, that takes courage.

Yes, it will take all that is within us. And yes, it's risky in terms of actual suffering ahead of us as a result of it. But let me tell you, when you hold babies and you hold their arms,.

When you do that,.

Everything changes. And it's worth your whole life. It's worth everything.

Okay, Marcus?

Yeah, what are ways they can promote.

This?

We did a video on Snapchat.

For small groups.

This is one of the main reasons I wanted to talk to you today. This event, obviously, we're talking about the broad issues, the foundational issues, and we're talking about Arizona, in a sense, because it's Arizona legislators and pro-life groups that are coming.

However, the reason we're streaming it and making it available is so that you guys do this in your own states. Because it's going to be harder to have this fight if it's only one state involved in the fight.

Much harder. If this is a nationwide movement, nationwide, to end abortion immediately by criminalizing it at the state level, if it's nationwide, we have a better chance of putting this before the face of our neighbors so that it's a gospel issue, that's a gospel conversation, and so that we can change the conversation and the culture from, we just want it stopped, it's a preference, to this is murder and we demand it stop now.

Moms and dads should not be allowed to kill their babies. So here's the thing, we need you all in this with us. Listen, let me just say this. I am not asking you in any way to put Apologia on your forehead.

I am not asking you to put any of our stuff stamped on you in terms of this movement's about us. It's not about us. It's about the gospel. It's about these babies. It's about the issue itself. So, if you start your own church's ministry in the area of abortion, praise God!

Just let us know, this is what's happening. We're going to praise God for it. If you start working with your state legislators at the state level with your own groups and your own coalition and your own state, praise God!

What we're asking you to do is to start. Start. Let End Abortion Now be the catalyst nationwide that will start Christians and churches nationwide to get into this fight at the state level themselves.

We're not directing this fight. This is a fight that belongs to God and it belongs to these children and we're called to enter into it but we want to just be a part of it. We want to actually let people know what's happening.

We want to train. We want to equip. But we need you to do it. Let me just say that. You are invited. You are invited to start now. Go to your pastors. Get with your churches. Start these groups. Go to your abortion mills.

Go to your legislators. After watching the stuff on April the 8th after you learn from it all, get involved and start. Get with your state legislators and get involved in the fight.

What about a church or a small group together?

How can they.

Get involved?

Well, I would say first and foremost watch the live stream on April the 8th, EndAbortionNow .com. Watch it together. I would say at that point, depending on who's in the group, if it's your pastors, work with your pastors to get, again, first, get to the abortion clinics and save babies.

Next, with your groups, contact your legislators, those who are on record as pro-life. Start talking to them. If they go to your church, if you have a legislator that's at your church and is a faithful believer, talk to that legislator and let them know about our wine and talk to them about submitting legislation that criminalizes abortion at the state level.

Soak it in prayer. First and foremost, I'm not just saying that because that's sort of like the.

Necessary glib Christian.

Response, pray about it, but I mean soak this in prayer. I mean, this is.

Massive.

Massive. We must.

Soak this in prayer.

Our issue legislators, have them submit legislation. It's like, what would that look.

Like?

That's the point. Yeah.

No, this is nationwide. Thankfully, our nation was given life because of.

The biblical worldview.

I will just say this, our form of government is essentially a Presbyterian style form of government. Amen. You can thank Geneva and John Calvin for that. But what we have in our nation in terms of our legal system is from that heritage and it has that pedigree and so the way our nation works is we have lesser magistrates, that's a very biblical form of government, for a reason.