What's Wrong with America? (Romans 1:18-32)

The Roman's Road of National Depravity and Romans 1

I'm going to give a lesson today from Romans, chapter one. Now, a few years ago, I did a sermon. This has been probably eight years, maybe more. The title of the sermon was The Roman's Road of National Depravity.

That was the title. I remember it just because it was that was a standout title in my mind. You've probably heard of the Roman's Road of Salvation. The Roman's Road of Salvation, as you take people through specific verses in Romans, if you're trying to show them how to be saved.

Romans 3, 23, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 6, 23, for the wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus, our Lord. You know, going down the line.

So what I call the Roman's Road of National Depravity is Romans chapter one, beginning at verse 18. And I'm going to revive this lesson today with a little bit of current events. And I want to say this from the outset.

We are. We are truly in an unprecedented time. In a lot of ways. Never before in history of our of our United States had people been so interconnected and yet so divided. If something happens in California, we'll know about it immediately.

If something happens in Jerkwater, Georgia. The world will know about it if it's important enough. We are so interconnected because of mass media.

And social media.

We live in an unprecedented time. I honestly think that the last four months of the covid crisis and the issue surrounding the riots and everything has been fully exasperated by the media and by social media.

It has been made worse because people are able to pile on. And we live in now what's referred to as the cancel culture. I don't know if you're familiar with what that term means, but cancel culture means that if if I don't like what you say, I'm going to make sure that you never have another opportunity to say it anywhere at any time.

So let's say a person on the television, a newsman or a newswoman says something that some people find offensive. For instance, the writer of the Harry Potter series, JK Rowling. Now, mind you, I don't care what your opinion is about Harry Potter.

I don't care what my opinion is about Harry Potter. I don't have one. I really don't. But that's not the point. She stated. That transgenderism, which is men who believe that they're women, women who believe that they're men, is a danger to feminism because it robs women of the distinction of being women by allowing men to participate in women only activities such as sports, and we've seen this.

There's a there's a there's a man who believes he's a woman who fights in the UFC and he obliterates the other women. Why? Because he's a man. I mean, that's it. And so we see this and JK Rowling was willing to say.

That's not right.

She has been absolutely eviscerated for her simply saying that there should be things that are limited to biological women only. She didn't say she didn't believe that transgenderism was wrong. She didn't say any of that.

She's she's she's very liberal based on what we see. But she's not liberal enough. She's not far enough left. Joe Biden is the presidential candidate for the Democratic Party. And what you will notice is that Joe Biden is left of Joe Biden four years ago.

And the reason for that is because it is becoming increasingly clear that to find a place in our society, in the American society, you have to continue to get more and more radically left to where even liberals like Bill Maher, who is a very nasty liberal man.

He uses nasty language. But even he's saying, you guys have gone nuts. You guys have gone crazy. And to hear him say you've gone crazy, you've gone crazy. If Bill Maher is willing to tell you that you're going out of line.

And that's where we are.

We find ourself at a point. Where immediately people are being drug through the mud if they say anything that does not toe the political correctness spectrum, that it doesn't it does not toe the line of political correctness.

We hear words today like privilege. And they say, if you have privilege, you're not allowed to have an opinion about someone who is disadvantaged. And therefore, the conversation comes up. And then there there's another word that many of you probably haven't heard.

But but if you have, you may not have understood it. And that's the word intersectionality. Intersectionality is the idea that your disadvantages compile the more disadvantaged you are. So, for instance, Jack, you are a white man.

You are the most advantaged, most privileged person in the world. But Miss Karen, you're a woman. You're a white woman, but you're a woman. And therefore, you have a certain type of disadvantage because you are a woman.

Right. So Miss Karen has a disadvantage to Jack who has a privilege because you're a white man. You're part of that patriarchy we hear so much about. So you are disadvantaged, Karen. But let's say you were a black woman.

Then you would have two points of disadvantage and they intersect with one another. That's called intersectionality. And therefore, you would have a double portion of disadvantage. If you were a black man, you'd have one position less than Jack.

But what if you were a black man who believed he was a woman? Now you have intersected in multiple ways. That is why this is Pride Month, by the way, for those of you who don't know. Pride Month is when the homosexual, homosexual community tries to push forward their idea that they need to be proud of their behavior.

And if you listen closely.

To the connection between Pride Month and the transgender revolution, you'll notice that the people that are now considered to be the most disadvantaged of all are black transgender women, which are actually men, because they intersect on so many levels.

Their intersections occur because they're black. That's one disadvantage. They are men who believe they're women. That's another disadvantage. And then there are women.

That's a third.

That's an intersection of disadvantage. And therefore, you who are advantaged, Jack, you have no opinion. You can't have an opinion because you're a white man. You've had all the advantages. You've had all the privileges.

You need to sit down and just be quiet.

You see?

And that's why if Jack were to stand up and say something, he would be canceled. He would be shut up. And this is where we have arisen. I wrote the question, what's wrong with America? There's a lot of things wrong with America.

And it didn't just start four months ago. But what we're seeing in the last four months is the accumulation of years and years and years of Marxist thinking that has come into our culture and has made its way in and has destroyed the foundations upon which our nation was built.

Things like being endowed with our by our creator with certain inalienable rights, among those the right to live, the right to own, the right to prosper. What is it? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Does the Bible guarantee those rights? Well, let's think about it for a moment. The very first time that was written, it wasn't written as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But it was written as it was life, liberty and property.

And it was based on the Bible, because in the Bible, if you look at the Ten Commandments, there are certain things that are guaranteed as rights, such as the right to life. If you take my life, that's a law against it and you are going to be punished.

So I have the right to life. And if you take my life, you're going to be punished. That's a right liberty. Liberty is another word for freedom. Therefore, we talk about liberty. Is liberty a right? Well, biblically speaking, there is a certain amount of freedom that's given in the sense that you have the freedom to do or not do, knowing that you'll be punished if you do wrong and you'll be rewarded if you do right.

And now what we see in Romans 13, do what is right. The government will reward you, do what is wrong. The government will punish you. There's a there's a certain standard there, but you have the freedom.

Just know that with freedom comes responsibility. And if you do wrong, you'll be punished. So life and liberty are both things that are biblical and the idea of property. What is the eighth commandment?

Thou shalt not steal. What is the very heart of thou shalt not steal? The concept of personal property, the concept that what I have is mine and it's not yours. And if you take what is mine, you are doing wrong.

You're stealing.

Right. But now the concept of communism and Marxism makes its way into and what's the first thing that is removed in communism? The concept of personal property, everything's belong to everyone else. You heard about the autonomous zone out in Seattle, where they basically took a six block piece of land and they deemed it no longer America.

They had signs up when you went in and it said you are leaving the United States of America. You are now in the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, CHAZ for short. Then there was Capitol Hill occupied post or something.

It changed to CHOP, I think, because CHAZ sounded just a little too silly. So they changed it to CHOP. There was a person who wrote a. A blog from within the thing, and they said, I left my laptop and I left my equipment in my tent, because a lot of them are living in like tent cities there.

So I left my laptop. I left some equipment and tent and I left. And when I came back, it was gone. And he was complaining, you know. Online and somebody came back and they said, you need to understand that the person who took it needed it more than you.

And you need to understand that what you've done is you've given an involuntary gift to someone else and you need to be thankful that you had an opportunity to give an involuntary gift. That's the type of work thinking.

That's the type of work thinking that communism brings, because that's the whole idea in communism is everything is an involuntary gift. We must give. When I when you say I must give, it's no longer giving.

But the bigger staker is going to have it all anyway.

Oh, absolutely. Animal Farm is one of my favorite books and Animal Farm, if teaches us nothing else, it shows we have seen Animal Farm and take place out in Seattle because it didn't take more than a few weeks for it to divulge and a pure anarchy.

And the people who were in power were the people with the guns. And there's video of them threatening to blow the other's head off if he didn't listen to him because he was now the law. We're going to argue against the brutality of police while at the same time being ourselves even more brutal and without any form of law and order.

By the way, I didn't write any of this. This has just been on my heart for weeks. I'm thankful to get to share it. If you're upset with me, I'm sorry. These are things that need to be said. And I've wanted to say them because when we look at our world, people say, what's the biggest problem in the world?

Biggest problems, racism, the biggest problems, intersectionality, the biggest problem is privilege. No, that's not the biggest problem. What we're going to see in Romans one, it is sin, but it's a specific type of sin.

So we're going to read Romans one, we're going to begin at verse 18, and we're going to see what the biggest problem is. Beginning at verse 18, Romans one says this. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who, by their unrighteousness, suppress the truth.

For what can be known about God is plain to them because God has shown it to them for his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things that have been made.

So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their foolish hearts were darkened, claiming to be wise.

They became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore, God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie.

And they worshiped and served the creature rather than the creator who is blessed forever. Amen. For this very reason, God gave them up to dishonorable passions for their women, exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature.

And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They're full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, their gossip, slanders, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Though they do not, excuse me, though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them. And so ends the reading of that passage.

God Giving People Over to Their Lusts

The Bible tells us the wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness and ungodliness of men. That's verse 18. But how is the wrath of God being revealed? Well, we actually see this in verse 24, the wrath of God is revealed by God giving people over to their own lusts.

People say this, people say, well, this is going to bring the judgment of God. And I say, no, this is the judgment of God. Rampant sexual immorality does not bring the judgment of God, it is the judgment of God.

It's God giving people over to the lusts of their heart. Rampant homosexual revolutions that does not bring the judgment of God. That is the judgment of God on a people. That is the byproduct of God giving a people over to their own debased mind.

So you think we're we're calling down judgment. It's already called down when you can look at your land and you can see your leaders and know that they are more concerned with political correctness than they are with factual accuracy.

Then, you know, we have stepped into the time of the judgment of God. When you can't trust even the doctors and the scientists because you don't know who's paying who, then, you know, you have come to a place where you are already under the judgment of God.

When you live in a place where corruption is so rampant that it is expected and it's not who is corrupt and who's not, it's just who's less corrupt. Then you have found yourself in the middle of the judgment of God.

So the wrath of God is being revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Why? Because by their unrighteousness, they suppress the truth, the suppression of the truth. That's what's wrong with America.

That's the answer. The suppression of truth, if I say the best way to have family is father and mother in the home, you can't say that because you'll offend the single parents. You can't say that because you will offend someone.

So I can't speak the truth. So you're going to suppress the truth. If I say the best system by which we can operate is capitalism. Because capitalism gives opportunity for success to anyone who is able and willing to go and do and work, they will say, no, that is wrong.

Capitalism is wrong because capitalism does not support those who are willing to work. It supports only the rich and it downplays the poor. That was Marx's whole point was that it is the workers should own the rights and the production, own the means of production rather.

What's the problem with that?

Marxism is godless.

Well, it was godless. But it also it was godless. And you're right to distinguish between the two, between Marx and Locke. But the issue, again, is it falls back to the issue of theft. You create something, I'm going to take it from you and give it to others, that is theft.

That's the very heart of Marxism, very hard of communism. I was talking about this with a group the other day. I don't remember where I was. I kind of have quite a few times I teach throughout the week.

So I kind of forget sometimes who I'm talking to. And but I was talking about equality. Everybody wants equality. Here's the problem. It is impossible to have equality of outcome. It is possible to attempt to have equality of opportunity.

But even then, equality of opportunity is not exactly really something we can achieve because I'll tell you this, I'm never going to play for Major League Baseball. I'm not built for it. I was never built for it.

At 17 years of age and probably the best physical shape I've ever been in my life, I was not built for it. I wanted to be a police officer. Karen, you know, I've your husband was a police officer. And when I was a kid, I wanted to be a police officer.

And I remember a police officer telling me, you know, you're a very big guy. If you're going to be a police officer, you're going to have to lose some weight. And I was thankful that he was honest with me because I've been big all my life.

I mean, I was you know, I was a big baby. I was a big kid. I was 17 years or 12 years old, have full mustache, six foot tall. It's just always a big guy. And so, you know, there's no way I'm going to be a fighter pilot.

Fighter pilots have to be a certain size, got to fit in the cockpit. Right. I used to watch Top Gun, really fantasize about being Maverick and never fantasize about being Goose. Just so you know, for those who've ever seen Top Gun, he didn't make it.

Spoiler alert for a 30 year old movie. But the point is, everybody talks about equality. Nobody really has equality of opportunity, even because we all built different. We all have different aptitudes and different abilities.

But we can try to make opportunities equal. We can try to give people opportunities. But you're never going to have equality of outcome because you're never going to have equality of effort. And you see, that's a true statement, but it's a statement the world does not want to hear.

And therefore, what do we try to do? We create UBI. You know what UBI is? UBI is universal basic income, and it is something that is trying to be pushed through our Congress. The concept that everyone should get a paycheck, whether they work or not.

Universal basic. Look it up. I'm not making it up. Universal UBI, universal basic income. Everyone should get a paycheck, whether they work or not. What does the Bible say? If a man doesn't work, he doesn't eat.

He doesn't work. He doesn't eat. That was biblical. And you say, well, wait a minute. The early church was communistic. No, it was not.

You know how I know this?

When Ananias and Sapphira sold their property and they brought it, they brought a portion of it because they hid back a portion for themselves. You know what Peter said? He said, your property was yours to do with what you would.

No one demanded that you sell it. No one demanded that you give it. They weren't in trouble that they didn't give the whole amount. They were in trouble because they lied to the Holy Spirit of God. He asked them, is this the full amount?

Because he knew they were lying. You ever wonder why Ananias and Sapphira sold that property in the first place? Because if you read the chapter before, it says Barnabas had done a similar thing and he had received accolades from the church.

Ananias and Sapphira sees what Barnabas did. They liked that he received accolades and they wanted the same accolades, but they weren't willing to pay the ultimate price for it. They weren't willing to give it all away.

So we'll sell it. We'll keep back some for ourselves. We'll give the church a portion. Hey, they weren't going to get anything anyway. So this is at least going to be a blessing to them. We'll tell them it was the whole amount just so that they'll throw us a party just like they did Barnabas.

Peter said it was yours to do with what you would. It was your property. Nobody demanded it of you. If anybody ever tells you the early church was communist, you look them in the face and say, you're wrong.

The early church was not communistic. You know what the early church did do? The early church cared for one another and they were willing to care for one another. But it was all voluntary. What does Paul tell us in second Corinthians nine, seven to give what you have purposed in your heart to give, not under compulsion, not reluctantly?

I'll tell you something. I've never, never in my life have I enjoyed paying taxes, but I do it. God tells me I should and I do and I don't cheat. I do as I'm supposed to do. I take advantage of whatever advantages there are, but I don't cheat and I pay my taxes.

But that's compulsory because if I didn't have to do it, I wouldn't at least I wouldn't do it the way they tell me to. But I do pay my taxes because that's compulsory. But giving in the church has never been compulsory.

It's always been up to you.

Now, should you give? Yes.

Should you give sacrificially? Yes. Should you give with an open hand and live, hold everything with an open hand?

Absolutely.

But the idea of compulsory giving, which is what communism is based on. By the way, I didn't come in to preach on capitalism and communism, but the whole idea, what's wrong with America, that we have suppressed the truth and we can't speak the truth anymore.

And because we can't speak the truth. See, the thing is, Romans 118 is talking about people who suppress the truth in their own hearts. But what you find out is it doesn't stop there. You want to come in?

OK, come on in. Come on, have a seat. I see you standing out there. I didn't mean to embarrass you, but I'd hate to see you standing. Brother Andy's sick this morning, so I took over for him. You OK? She's not feeling good today.

So Romans 118 and no, she ain't got no code. She just pulled a muscle in her back. So we have Romans 118 is talking about suppressing the truth in your heart. You know, God exists. You suppress that truth and unrighteousness.

And that's the problem, because that gives way to idolatry. If you follow the logic, the logical argument of Paul, it's we know God exists. We suppress that truth and we replace God with something else.

And that's why he talks about worshiping the creature rather than the creator, because that's idolatry. And no matter what you worship, if it's not God, it's idolatry. If itself, which is a lot of people worship themselves without even realizing it.

I'm the most important person in the world. I'm the I'm the one who is going to always have my will be done. I am worshiping me. And that's the way a lot of people operate. And that's the focus. But what you need to understand is those who suppress the truth and unrighteousness in themselves will demand that others do the same.

The suppression of truth that happens in the individual will become the suppression of truth that happens in society because society is made up of individuals. And as long as there are more people in the society willing to suppress the truth and demand others do so, and the people who are on the other side willing to allow them to make them do so, we're going to continue to see what we're seeing.

We have to stop being afraid to speak the truth. Everybody's so afraid to speak the truth. I did a podcast about this last week. Jesus had some men come up to him and they said, by what authority do you say these things?

And Jesus said, hey, what authority did John have? John the Baptist.

And they all huddled together.

I said, what do we say? Well, if we say John's authority was from heaven, he'll say his authority is from heaven. And so we won't have anything to say to him. But if we say it wasn't from heaven, these people are going to stone us because they thought John was a prophet.

So they come out of their huddle and they say, we don't know. Prototypical politicians. That's all they were, because when asked a difficult question, the answer is, I don't know. Where did the authority come from?

I don't know. They didn't believe John was from God, but they knew the people did. And so they were unwilling to say what was in their heart because they were unwilling to upset the people. Now, they were wrong.

But let's look at that from our side. How often are we afraid to say what needs to be said simply because it might hurt someone's feelings? Well, as a Christian, we're not supposed to hurt people's feelings.

You know, as a Christian, we're supposed to love people, and sometimes loving people means telling them the truth that they don't want to hear. If somebody is caught into drugs, and you continually give them drugs, that's not love.

That is enablement. If they're caught in drugs and you tell them you think they should stop, that's a step. But if they're caught up in drugs and you say no more, we're not going to have we're not going to be able to have this relationship anymore.

And that's often what has to happen. So I can't imagine cutting someone off. If you enable them to continue in the direction that they're going, it's a dangerous road. And that sort of goes in a different direction than where I'm headed.

The point is, we sometimes have to do the hard thing and say the hard thing. And what's wrong with America is we cannot speak the truth anymore.

The Sexual Revolution, the Homosexual Revolution, and the Language of Phobia

I want to I want to.

There's a lot in Romans one that the homosexual reference here is very important. But what did I say earlier? All that is, is God giving people over to the lust of their flesh. And if you don't think that there's anything wrong with the sexual revolution and homosexual revolution that has happened, I will say this.

The things that go on at such as out in California with the marches and the rallies, the pride rallies and things, there are things that go on that would absolutely turn your stomach. I can't even talk about them and especially in mixed company.

As I say, I wouldn't say in front of women is just that awful. And yet they say this is this is good and wholesome. This is the way it should be. And those of us who say it's not, well, you're homophobic.

You're trans phobic. You're think think about how many words that we apply the word phobic to. Xena phobic. You know, xenophobic means means to be afraid of people different than yourself. That's the ultimate charge today.

Trump is xenophobic because he wants to close the borders. You are homophobic because you believe homosexuality is wrong. You're trans phobic because you wouldn't let your daughter date a man who is actually a woman dressed as a man.

You're Islamophobic because you believe that there is an inherent violence in the beliefs of the Islamic people. It causes whole nations to be overrun and overtaken. That's Islamophobia. Has nothing to do with history.

It's your unconscious bias. Have you heard that term recently? Unconscious, but see the thing with you, Jack, your problem is you don't even know what your problem is because you are a white man and you have so much bias in you that it's unconscious.

And therefore, you can't not be a bigot and a racist and a homophobe and Islamophobe because it's ingrained in you. You understand I'm teasing you right now. OK, I don't want to go. I can't see underneath that mask.

But if your teeth are grinding together, I don't want you. I don't want to get beat up today. Wouldn't that be funny to see Jack just wail? No, come after me. No. But that's the thing. That's the point, right, is we can't speak the truth.

What's the problem with America? We can't speak the truth. Suppressing the truth and unrighteousness. Now, I want to move down. Like I said, we could talk about each one of these things. We could talk about the sexual revolution.

We talk about idolatry, talk about the homosexual revolution. But the thing that matters most, and because we're we're getting close to the end here, I want to go to verse 32, because this is the this is the culmination of Romans one.

This is the road that it leads down. This is the pathway. Remember, we said Romans wrote a national depravity, right? Starts with the suppression of the truth and the individual that moves out to the society as a result of suppression of the truth.

We have God giving them over to this and that and the other.

And now what do we have?

Verse 32, though they know God's decree that those that practice such things deserve to die. What things? The whole list from before. And by the way, there's some things on that list that people enjoy doing in church.

Oh, you've gone from preaching to meddling. No, but I will, because that's exactly what you need to understand. You notice what's right next to hatred of God, gossip and slander. I always tell people, gossip's not that big a deal.

It's right next to hatred of God. Absolutely. You're you're you're speaking against an image bearer of God and particularly you're speaking against the bride of Christ. If it's in the church, it's a horrible thing.

But notice the 32 says, though they know God's decree. See, they're not ignorant. Nobody can claim ignorance. They know it's wrong. But though they know God's decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die.

Why? Because the wages of sin is death. Every sin we do deserves death. And if we live in sin, we're living in a perpetual state of death penalty. Warranted death penalty. They know the people who do such things, practice such things, deserve to die.

They not only do them, but they give. And the ESV says approval, I think I think hardy approval is a is a is the idea Paul's getting. They give hardy approval to those who practice them. They applaud the wicked.

And they damn the righteous. Isaiah said. Woe to those who call good evil. And those who call evil good, those who replace light for darkness and darkness for life, those who replace bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

That's what we see. That's what we see in our land. Yes, sir.

When Christians Must Stand for Truth Against Government

So I'm going to ask Christian. When do you stand up and what should you say? When do you fight back and how do you fight back? And when the government stops enforcing good and begins to enforce evil, they have lost their mandate from God.

That is their mandate is to enforce good and punish evil. But when they reward evil and punish good, we as Christians must stand for the truth. Sure. And we as Christians then have the right to stand up against our God.

Yes, I think it looks different in different scenarios, I think, as such as as a minister. Right. I have certain mandate of preaching the truth and the church has a certain mandate. So if the government comes and says you can no longer preach against homosexuality,.

I'm going to jail.

My wife and I have had this conversation and it is not a joke to us. John Bunyan, John Bunyan was put into prison for preaching the gospel.

He had a family.

He had a daughter. And the men who put him in there said, why don't you just stop preaching and then you can go home to your child? Don't you think he was tempted to do that? Over in Russia, there was a.

Man and woman back during the time of the forming of the Soviet Union, and while they were forming the Soviet Union, there was basically a push against all religion and it was pushed away. And one of the preachers who was there was seeing what was going on and he was at a large meeting and his wife was with him and she kept she said, something has to be said.

Something has to be said. And he looked at her and he said, if I say this, you will no longer have a husband. And she said, I don't want a husband who's a coward. So I think it begins with the church.

What's the church willing to do? We have to do it together. We have to stand together. We have to make difficult decisions together. If it means we lose our tax exemption, so what? It means we have to pay property tax, so what?

But you understand there are churches that can't, that could not survive with that. I mean, John MacArthur's church, he has said it. He said if they had to pay property taxes, they owe millions of dollars in property.

They couldn't afford it.

They would close the building. You understand what I mean? I'm saying I'm saying they would have to consider losing master seminary. They have to consider that. And that may be what happens. I'm not saying John wouldn't do it.

I'm not saying they wouldn't stand. But that's that's going to be the churches. And that's why I say is when you ask, what can we do? I think at first it begins with the churches. We have to preach righteousness.

We have to support one another, encourage the preaching of righteousness. Now, when it comes to public policy and how we deal with public policy, I do think some of what Jeff Durbin and James White are doing is good.