Anabaptist History (Day 18) the Dutch Decline and the Russian Mennonite Fire — Dean Taylor

Here for you to read. I'm just going to book reading. We're going to be pretty much now just in Introduction to Mennonite history and here's the pages, okay 256 to 260 talks about The coming to America and it ends there with a section on Burn, Indiana.

You'll appreciate that Lucas and then 302 to 316. The other groups in this book would be mainly where all of us come from and so I appreciate that. Read that and then I really want you to take a look at even if we don't completely have time to cover it in detail is 317 to 394 and that whole section deals with the mission of Of the Mennonite churches in all these different countries and since a lot of our churches has missions in the Central America and Africa and India.

Mennonite Missions, Martyrs, and Revival History

Even amongst different Mennonite groups that are out there. I think it'd be really healthy for us to understand the Martyrs and missionaries that were there before us. I mean there was Martyrs of these people at which we're pretty much completely ignorant to and I think it's a shame.

And so make sure you read 317 to 394. There is a couple themes that I'd like to hit on next week, I'm not sure how I'm gonna do this. I may do a day on I don't know. I'd like to make sure that I hit the revivals of America Mennonite revivals.

You know the ones that happen with funk and and the ones that happened amongst the George Brunk revival and all those sorts of things. I'd like to bring those to. I have some nice recordings of Brunk and some of those things.

I think I'd like to see some of that. And then I'd like to also talk about the missions and just the dynamic one of the points that I'd like you to pay attention in your reading is the stress between the church and the mission field and What's that stress and you're gonna see that I'm gonna try to get particularly From my own area, which I think influences of everybody in this room is the stress that Lancaster County went through with the Tazania At that time Tanganyika mission and the church in Lancaster Conference Mennonite Church and just those dynamics.

There's some interesting letters back and forth to the bishops and things like that and attitudes. And again, I think there's lessons for us today to learn from that, but I want you to have an understanding.

I've heard it said amongst our people all I've heard it a lot of us. Well Mennonites never were into missions never did these things. It's really it's really not fair. Even if we may not agree with how all some of those missions Became nevertheless.

Wow I mean of the tens of thousands of people in different countries that have been reached through missionaries and. So I want to make sure that you you get that. All right for the essay questions. That's you have a paper.

That's due Monday. And here are your three choices, okay. Hey drink of water, I'm feeling a little sick today, so I hope I can even make it through this whole lecture. So if you see me sitting down and things, I don't know.

Maybe it was a paint last night. My office is getting pretty scary over there, but it's okay. So here's the three ones, okay number one your choices are out of three is Discuss the rise and fall of the Dutch Mennonites.

What lessons are for us today? The rise and fall of the Dutch Mennonites. I'm gonna finish just a little bit of that today the fall part. Number two essay question or if you want a little more time for that discuss the place of dreams visions and spiritual intuitions in the life of the believer.

All right also discuss how Those things in the context of the church. How do we balance the letter and the spirit? Examples from history would be great. I Think you know where I'm going with that all the milk or Hoffman the Munster tragedy a lot of these visions and dreams that people got.

So again, I'll repeat that discuss the place of dreams visions and spiritual intuitions in the life the believer also discuss how it in the con how it is affected in the context of the church and How do we balance the letter and the spirit examples from history would be great.

The third one is discuss the idea of A brotherhood slash community model of mission seen in the early Anabaptists. Discuss the idea of a brotherhood Slash community Model of missions seen in the early Anabaptists and contrast this with modern evangelical methods.

What can we learn from this? Discuss the idea of a brotherhood slash community based mission model or a model of mission. Discuss the idea of a brotherhood slash community based mission model as seen in the early Anabaptist.

You can bring in anybody into that including what we're going to share today from the Russians. Contrast this with modern evangelical methods. What can we learn from this? Y 'all did great with your essays.

I've really enjoyed them. That's why I like to get in these dialogues with y 'all with your insights that you're bringing out. I appreciate them. I very do much appreciate them. It's it's it's been very neat for me to be here just to hear the different perspectives and people coming from different places.

Well if we could Silas if you're going to start us out with a word of prayer and we'll begin to look at the fall of or some of the Diminishing of the church in Holland and then the Russian Mennonites.

Let's pray. Amen. Thank you very much. All right. Well as we look at Holland I Want us to today to look at some of the things that led to their decline now. Here's the thing. I think we need to really pay attention to Holland.

It's my opinion. I'd love to pretend like I'm in Switzerland and it's 1550 or even better if it's Moravia and it's you know I don't know 1550 or 40. But I think the biggest lesson that we should pay attention to is Holland 1700.

Because if there's any group that I think we look the most like it's Holland 1700 not Switzerland 1530 what I mean the kind of things they're dealing with the the intellectualism the materialism the Splitting the kind of lack of vision.

I I see that in our in our expressions of trying to find these things. And so I don't want to throw stones at Holland today and their decline. I want to have it to be a serious Time for us to look at ourselves and say hey, how does that apply to us?

Dirk Willems and the Dutch Mennonite Martyrs

Okay, but first before I do that I thought it would just be a shame if we left the Dutch Mennonites and didn't tell the story of Dirk Willems. I know you know the story, but it's good to tell the story and I found this nice little video.

I don't know who this is. I appreciate the way the guy tells it. And I appreciate some of his messages when I clicked on his site there. But I'm gonna give the story of Dirk Willems and then I'm gonna go to a little slideshow that I actually took from Holland when I visited the single Kirk Church there and We're gonna use that to show the decline of Holland so here we go.

I'm gonna try to see how this works. Oh the speaker thing. That would be nice. Where's a speaker thing?

Oh here it is if I can see it back here. All right, brace yourself just showing the different martyrs.

And Remember the spirit of Holland. There's some strong faith there. Outside of all the disappointments that we saw Yesterday the church still was moving very powerfully.

During this persecuted time the famous Dirk Willems story.

Persecution at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church brother Willems was found immovable in his faith in Jesus Christ. Dirk Willems had the chance to escape his capture as he was fleeing from the authorities sent to take him.

He was being hardly pursued by the guard on one frosty morning as he ran across some very dangerous ice. Dirk made it across the ice, but the guards sent to capture him broke through. Dirk saw that the very guard who would bring him to be executed was in danger of losing his life.

Rather than continuing to run and ensuring zone safety Dirk turned back and saved the life of the man sent to arrest him. The guard was grateful and wanted to let Dirk escape. But was given stern orders by the officer standing at a distance to capture him.

Dirk was immediately brought into severe imprisonment until he could be burned at the stake. Strong winds prevailed the day of his execution. Fire was lit, but winds kept the flames to the lower half of Dirk Willems body for quite some time.

Spectators heard him cry out. Oh my Lord my God. More than 70 times as he lingered on in life as the flames slowly hurt him. At this the prosecutor turned his back and shamed on brother Willems and commanded that he quickly be put to death.

Dirk Willems loved his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and took his commands very seriously. Jesus said in Matthew chapter 5. He hath heard that it hath been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

But I say unto you that you resist not evil for whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek turn to him the other also. You have heard that it has been said thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you love your enemies bless them that curse you do good to them that hate you and pray for them which Despitefully use you and persecute you that ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven.

Dirk Willems dared to love his enemies just as Christ did. Would you be willing today to save the life of someone who wanted to kill you? Would you be willing to lay down your life in order to save your enemy?

Amen, well done.

So I just felt that the the Dirk Willems story. I couldn't leave Holland. It would have been wrong. Don't you agree if. If the story wouldn't have been told all right, so now I'm going to bring in the This story.

I wonder I got this little thing here. I wonder if this works. Yeah. Question is how am I going to be able to? Dale do you mind here we go? When I nod to you just hit the down button right there, okay?

Holland's Golden Age and the Decline of Mennonite Convictions

All right. Well, I guess it'd probably reach over there actually. Yeah, actually deal. I think that that keyboard will reach over here. Thank you. All right, so now what we're going to do is again is look at the the what happened in Holland.

And again as I said yesterday, it's good to remember when you're studying history histories of war histories of Churches you tend to just look at the things that happen church splits church this and what we remember I kept trying to do yesterday was even in the midst of a lot of the very difficult things they went through.

There was still these brothers that were living for the faith when I was over at in Holland last. Last summer we went into the single Kirk Church. Which is remember the last split that I talked about yesterday the war of the lambs between?

The lamest and the sunnest at the very end while we were there we had they they it was a it's a huge church. It's but it's the most interesting thing about it is is you you wouldn't see it on the inside it's almost like an optical illusion when you go in and they did this because of the.

When they were allowed to build churches they still had to be very low profile. But when you went in this thing could hold 2 ,000 people and it's amazing. Well. They gave us a tour and then also they were very nice to us and gave us a slideshow of what how they interpret The decline of the Mennonite Church.

I took that and I brought it. I ran and grabbed a Little memory card and I took it off his computer with his permission. And I brought it to here today, and I think it's interesting because this comes from them.

I did add a few slides in through the end and there was some that he had on the Amish itself. Which were in Dutch. I went and I used the Google and interpreter to to bring the interpretation today. So those may be a little archaic Interpretations, but I I had to get them because they were interesting pictures.

And I wanted to see what they were saying. But here it is straight from the single Kirk Church the the history of the Dutch from the Dutch people themselves, okay? Thank you all right the Golden Age. After we got into the end of the persecution William the first the Of Orange he gave some religious toleration and although all around them there were things happening people were still getting burned in Belgium and that type of thing nevertheless like Steve Russell said yesterday, they did have a higher degree of Religious freedom than even the Swiss did even even the later part of the 1500s, but here we go through this.

Again it just talks about how small this area is that the all of Holland would fit into this area. It's trying to show us less than 1 3rd of Ohio or how to squeeze 17 million people in a triangle between Toledo Cincinnati and Cleveland so if you can imagine everybody in Holland fits into that into that area.

Oh. Sure, yeah, oh, yeah, we don't need that at all. Thank you. Okay, they this is their slide. I took one of them all is that it's a It's a country of Contrast. Still to this day you see a heritage. This is how they drain of course is how they drained all their swamp waters.

But it's a also they have some very wicked things in Holland today. Extremely wicked as some of the most wicked things on earth that's done legally in the open is done in Holland. There's also still memories of things of the past in Holland they talk about their Orange madness their patriotism with their sports in there there are sorts of things.

It's in their country today. They have the royalty there. Which is still like we talked about yesterday even the the Kings in England and a lot of the princes and stuff have their heritage here in Holland and so here again William of Orange the silent is he brought in this religious toleration and Early on they started building these churches, and here's the one I was talking about.

This is the The single Kirk here, and so it looks pretty plain on the outside you go in and it's just huge. And it's it's kind of amazing architecture when you go in there, but they started quickly building pretty good-sized church buildings.

Just the different things in the Golden Age that started to happen and they got rich with their shipping. And I think it's one of the things they're kind of bring out here. Still there was different martyrs that were going through there.

This brother was actually one later on that was trying to reform things keep things in a godly way the different. Didn't translate those different martyrs and that type of thing. Different ones there and here this was the one night one of the ones I translated.

So I didn't translate everything, but it it shows again like we talked yesterday of the divisions. These are all the different divisions that were happening during Holland during this time and it's a shame and that's what we spent our time yesterday looking at and Somebody had written the Babel of Reconstruction Baptist.

I use that as a just a Google translation, and that's what this document over there talks about. Heaping all of this stuff as a as a Babel somebody said so it's kind of judgment on us for the. All that splitting and everything, but like I said a lot of times.

They did have some deep reasons when you start looking into them some different reformers we had talked about Hans de rice yesterday and they started using this was the the the brother who there was on the first split when they were splitting over the strong shunning and They are begin to be called waterlanders because they're in the district they were at and today they still use this terminology called dupka zinden and Which simply means Baptist minded baptizing minded, and they didn't want to be named after any particular thing or person.

So it became baptism minded was there and still to this day. You'll see that written around in Holland frequently. Alright we heard about milk or Hoffman and milk your Hoffman and what he did and of course we heard about Munster and all that happened with them and We heard about the different Things I guess they have as hard times terror and everything.

Middle Simons, of course we heard we talked a lot about him. And then here are some of those divisions again with the waterlanders the Frisians the Flemish and. But still different things came on. Well, they started getting more and more towards the later as part of these 1600s you started writing Martyr stories to talk about the older days and and that sort of thing reminding them have how we lost something.

It seemed the church was going more and more into the ways of the world and many men And women sought to try to stop that progress. Again, it's latest 1572. People were being killed. All right, so when the church is divided.

Here's where. This is what I took straight from the Dutch slide and it was talking about in this time refugees started coming in from lots of different places and during the. During the split these different churches had an active role in doing that and here is the single Kirk.

This is the church that the slide show this this the man was standing right here showing this very slide not this one. But so this is the single Kirk still looks exactly like that today and the different churches that were were there here's the song that split with this church remember that and Another group here.

This would be one of the most I guess maybe old Flemish or old Frisian there be more conservative okay, one of the things I Mentioned it a little bit with during the Amish time, but we're gonna say some things about their materialism in there and there's some of their Losing the faith during that time, but it would be wrong to Not mention that if it wasn't for the help of these Dutch Mennonites, I mean they helped the Amish they helped the Mennonites they sent money to the Hutterites and I will say that they were one of the first people who got this Organization together kind of like a cam is today of helping people that are in Terrible straits and hard times and and you have to this is where I said in somewhere in Anabaptism in every way there's a sense of sharing and definitely you saw that minnow said there will be no poor among us and and you have to appreciate that of how they James Lowry has put together this book of documents of letters back and forth of thanking them.

For many of these things I have this book. It's it's nice. Okay, so then we start to get into this period though where things are very lax open. You can be out in the open you can have your church. You can have your businesses you can have and they begin to grow more and more.

Here's the cloth guild a painting by Rembrandt of and I suppose this would be one of the Mennonites that were part of this cloth Guild people were their businesses were beginning to grow and grow more and more.

And so you started to become part of the upper class the the people that made the difference in Holland in the social circles. Again, you can see some of their their house houses in there. There are different tapestries and things like that and there was hardly anything by 1663.

That wasn't preventing the Mennonites to become very much in high society here in Holland. Again here's one. These would be paintings that the family would have had made and then they would of course show Some of the things that they would think would be important to them.

Again paintings from Mennonites Mennonite families. It was again during this time that the martyrs mirror and different martyr stories. We're trying to remind them of the ways and said have we lost something yet.

Is there something that we're missing as this keeps going this way? And this was a slide I interpreted it was from there and they did this slide and I think it's it's it's very interesting a rough translation literally said a Mennonites in the Netherlands ascend the social ladder in the 17th and 18th century and I and so they show this persecuted Church down here.

Stepping up to here to here here here and to practically royalty here. One man was actually knighted because he had such a Fabulous wealth and and he had so many employees and things that he was considered a knight and.

And just showing the progression of where the church was going and somehow somewhere Along this line you started to really lose out a lot of the vision of why they were there in the first place and They they gave this slide here.

There were some of the Orthodox that was there and this is a rough translation just to let translated Orthodoxy shrinks. It begins to less and less people are are Considered. Taking these things in an Orthodox sense is the term they used.

And so anyway, that's a it's an interesting slide in it. I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Kind of scares me. All right. All right. Here's one one of the fabulous mansions of one of the Mennonites and here's his gardens and his Palace and and the different thing and he was a silk merchant and and again just showing you to the extent there was no Lines or limits of of what these Mennonites were able to get into at this time.

Again different paintings they had of their families. Famous people part of the banking system and Here's the duke is in financers. So that they were, you know bankers and such and again very much part of the elite of Holland with everybody else Rembrandt had painted they some people debated did Rembrandt ever become a Mennonite at least became close I mean had lots of friends that seemed that were Mennonites, but they never found a baptismal record of Rembrandt and here he painted this Preacher Mennonite preacher and it does say you can't really understand him unless you hear him.

So apparently he still was a a good preacher. Rembrandt said that about him. There's the famous Mennonite preacher and They pointed this out, I'm not sure why they pointed out the candle snuffer, I forgot I'm sure he said but I can't remember.

They pointed out that candle. She is exhorting this lady in the faith looking at the Bible here looking at the Bible. Again, I'm sure all right, here's another one wrote some hymns and. And here's a here's a painting that someone had painted for their family, but they put themselves in this journey.

And he brings out how these different guys were. People in the all right, so the people of Holland began to mock the Mennonites. You know and say you know you're hypocrites you're and here's a caricature of Mennonite morals, and they're talking about the hypocrisy.

They're talking about the Mennonite lie the cake. I'm not sure what that is the collar and the midnight wedding and don't look at it too long or you'll start it gets offensive, but it's a again. It's just say gives you an idea of A lack of a vision.

I think of what was happening to the church in my opinion. Some of the brothers tried to hold things back. Peter Peters here. Also was one of the people that said hey, we got a we got to stop this Tobacco Drinkers on the wide road was a literal translation there again probably calling out against people smoking and different things like that.

Different documents that were given in those times by 1710. They're in Bern. Matter of fact right here along these docks right there the Mennonites and the Amish were put onto Boats and finally just kicked out of Bern this was like the final Get out of here from Switzerland, and I forgot the number.

But a lot in the hundreds perhaps over the whole period of years were kicked out of Bern. And would have gone down this river and which would eventually found himself into Rhine. Went down the Rhine and had to go all the way to Holland again.

I mentioned I think when we talked about the Amish split I appreciate the the people of Switzerland's told Holland that they wanted to make sure from Holland then they get shipped to either like st. Thomas or or Barbados or America, but they want them out of the way and fortunately the the the Mennonites from Holland.

We're riding the embassy here in and Bern and saying look as soon as they set foot in Holland. They're free and and so that's why a lot of the Mennonites and the Amish came to Holland. That's how they got there.

But something interesting. When they got there you had this old world of persecuted Mennonites coming walking into church of Now modern Mennonitism of the 1700s and how many times have you heard a preacher say or you said it?

What would it be like if Minnow Simons came to you know? Or what would it be like if Conrad Grebel well it happened here except kind of you know what I mean they you had a chance of the old coming into the progress of the new and There was some responses.

Here's just remember how the other people were dressed. This is some early Amish. That's actually an Amish couple That came to Holland from Switzerland. Here's some of the some of the things they said.

This guy wrote kind of a poem dealing with. I can't believe what we're finding here in in Holland. And here's what he said he said here. We stand before a house where modest people dwell. Alas of minnows folk at least they bear his name.

Here everything is grand. What an array of coaches. They are the fashion. What's snuffing and commotion? How properly the gentleman greets that lady and graciously leads her up the steps. Here we must go in with all the noise and crowds will likely not be noticed.

This is a great affair. No amateurs are here, but masters in the art of worldly vanity here is much Complimenting favoring flattering. The bride and the bridegroom show themselves with pride. What do you think?

Well any of my sort be there our Humility and good morals honored here instead of pride and vanity. No, not at all. Softly now move aside with rhythm of music and singing there will be skipping and dancing.

Herodias has returned. She swings and glides moving around the floor as if she teaches how to use a sword on John the Baptist's neck and Offer the head upon a platter to her mother, but this is not her intention.

She only wants to spread a net to catch the birds. She sees set her eyes upon how the wine goes to the young men's head. Oh, pardon me. They're gentlemen. How they glut on pastries and romping and of clothing what romping what?

Feasting all pleasure. So they were very grieved especially the Swiss brother in the Amish. Were grieved when they got to Holland and saw they were there now that that's were very nice to them. They gave them places, but when they tried to find communities for them to live I really didn't know how to deal with these people and they wrote some of these things he goes on.

This is from their slide. This is they they put this together. How many a doll we see in gay attire when walking with our people on the street? See here comes one now strutting like a peacock for shame half-clothed with naked shoulders.

Shut children. Shut your eyes, but say where is she going? Oh? To the church. Not for worship. I surmise, but rather to display her fine attire and with seducing gaze attract her lover. Who powdered white his womanlike hair?

Ouch. Just an insight on the conflict now of these these brothers who got to Holland and what they were seeing. So they talked about this is from their slide the pilgrimage of a wandering Dutch Duke Cassandra, and they said the conservatives then left and came to America and they became this and this is totally this slide.

I just got to share this with you because it was hilarious. So they were there and all of a sudden Benuel Esther's dad raised his hand and said just curious Where did you get that picture of that conservative family?

Because it was been you and this was. I was over there in Holland watching a slideshow. And this has been you and that is little Esther. Isn't she cute. And this was a picture right they were showing us in the single Kirk church in Holland so there's a little Esther and they were representing your family Esther as what became of the conservative voice of of the of the.

The heritage there, so that's a pretty good legacy you have. And that's a pretty cute picture, too. All right, so Benuel was pretty surprised when he saw that all right. So again, they show just the simplicity of the way of life that was lost and here I just ask a few questions, and we'll leave this section.

Why did they drop many of their old convictions during that journey? I? Asked the question Why? When you read their answers, it's the same kind of things we hear today. I tried to make those fancy little flip ins, but I couldn't figure it out.

Not offend. When more converts from outside the church people said we don't we don't want to be a stumbling block. Show love and the fellowship focus on what is really important. Were some of the things that you hear them say did it work.

Look at this slide. They made the slide 1650 70 ,000. 1900 31 ,000. 2010 8 ,000. And that's a generous number. We were there in that single Kirk and it seats over 2 ,000 members. And Esther's father been.

You'll ask the question. I'm just curious like how many people were here last Sunday 26. So did it work? Hmm so why would we want to repeat their mistakes? Dealing. Van Broughtt says. Writing at that time period these are sad times in which we live.

Nay, truly there is more danger now than in the time of our fathers who suffered death for the testimony of the Lord. Few will Believe this because the great majority look to that which is external and corporal and to this respect it is now better quieter and more comfortable.

Few only look to that which is internal and Pertains to the soul and on which everything depends as the introduction to the martyrs mirror. For what is it a profit if a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul or what shall a man?

Give an exchange for his soul. Last slide. It grieves us to the heart that we must live to see these times and therefore speak in this wise Oh Lord strengthen our faith. Help thy weak trusting lambs that they may not be led into error nor move from the foundations of the most holy faith.

On the other hand through his instigation the world now reveals itself very beautiful and glorious. More than any preceding time in a threefold pleasing form the lust of the flesh the lust of the eye and the pride of life.

Almost all men run after her to worship her as Queen Supreme. But all are deceived thereby. Yea many who have drunk of the poison wine of her lust from the golden cup of her iniquities and Deceptions die.

A spiritual death at the first design is aimed at the faith. So this is dedicated directed against the true Christian life. Here lies great danger. Who shall escape these snares. He that would at no time be taken unawares by it must indeed be cautious.

Cautious and watchful if you don't want to be taken by this you must be cautious and watchful. But our very flesh seems prone to it here must be fasting watching. Praying and calling upon God for help.

Otherwise, there is no escape. This is their last slide ever all the they left this that all the godly people left. So, all right, turn your light on. Let's take a break. Let's come back and talk about the Russian Mennonites and that concludes our section on the Dutchman.

Your little ice cream place has gotten Around more than you know, I think. It was just so funny because with been you'll there the guy was like, oh, sorry. No, that's okay. So, all right, let's talk about the Russian Mennonites.

The Russian Mennonite Historical Record and Its Biases

Now here's a first I want to give a confession about my study of the Russian Mennonites because I'll tell you how it happened With the Russian Mennonites. It's there's usually a general story the way we tell the story about the Russian Mennonites and for some reason this story gets repeated over and over again the the main history that came out during the 1900s was written by a couple of ex-Russian Mennonites and if you can imagine an ex-beachy or an ex-charity person or an ex-Mennonite or something writing a history of your Your you know, I mean it probably didn't come out.

They were children I think if I recall but nevertheless it didn't give it and Probably a fair as light as it it should have been and it kind of when you just mentioned the bad things that happened. You can tend to miss a lot of incredible things.

I mean Dirk Willems is a perfect example of Holland if we would just look at the splits of Holland and say that's all they were. Shining examples like Dirk Willems would would suddenly just be faded away and that's the way it is for rush the Russian Mennonites.

There's some incredible things incredible mission activity revival preaching Prayer times and I'm gonna try to give you some of those I get a little bit more of my confession a few years ago. We had a mission conference and Someone had preached the witnessed or something to the tribal the German tribal people and Said a lot of things about the the Russian Mennonites and me being the editor of the remnant.

I'm not the editor of the mission paper. But people assume that I am and it went around and and I started getting this letter and particularly Peter Hoover Wrote me and said, how could you say these things?

I said what things and so I said, okay. Let me be honest with you. Okay. I don't it's not just I hear Our mistakes saying these things. I hear this everywhere. And so I want to hear some. I want some facts.

I want to know I want to know some things. I need I need some words of their people. I want their preachers. I want their documents. I want to know something so that I don't have to just keep repeating this old story because It's not just us.

I hear from different Mennonite churches. We all see here the lessons of the Russian Mennonites and we get a bad name on him so he sent it to me and I have to say it influenced me and. And I felt I needed to repent a little bit of just sort of judgmental attitude I have of some of these people that maybe perhaps make myself feel better.

And and I think that when we do this where we could be hurting people more than we realize, you know. When young people don't feel like their heritage is something worth standing for it can kind of be very demeaning.

The same thing happened to the Amish people and I appreciate Leroy Beachy's books and his new studies with looking at an answer light books of Looking at some of the looking at the Amish in a different light when everyone's.