Remembering Voddie Baucham & The Future of American Christianity

Well, I thought what we'd do is we could talk about that and just hear the conversation goes also talk about Charlie Kirk or John MacArthur any of the tragedies and just kind of the state of the church and what you know.

Grieving the Loss of Christian Leaders and the Need for Local Church Care

What do you think God's doing? I think naturally people ask the question God, why are you doing one after another after another? Our leadership is being eliminated either by death or by disqualification and I think a lot of people find that very unsettling and destabilizing.

Especially if they don't have a great local church and they're looking for their spiritual nourishment from these guys. There's not anyone waiting in the wings to fill those big shoes. Those shoes won't be filled anytime soon as far as I can tell.

And I think after John MacArthur died, especially I know Danny was saying this and I thought the same thing I said, well now it's voting kind of almost like the torch is passed to voting he's got to say the hard cultural things and the art biblical things people don't want to hear and he'll do it and It's a year I don't I don't know how old he was 50 56.

Oh, it's when you're younger than that. That's so devastating. My wife's mother died two years ago. She's 56 and it's just that's so devastating at that age. He has kids I so I'll just start I guess and then leave it open.

I talked to him. Like I said earlier this is being reported now I talked to him in the summer and I asked him how he was feeling. He's feeling really good. And that he was that was in the rear view or near all the problems of his heart.

He had two sons and he was gonna bring up here. One of them was going to the military like this month. I can't imagine what that's going like for him. But you know, he was taking this new job founder seminary, which is why he didn't end up coming up he was just too busy with all the new things that they were giving him and It was supposed to be kind of like the new.

The new seminary the new place you could go for theologically conservative orthodox solid education. And it's been around for a few years. But this I think everyone knew in this room even like with vote.

He's kind of stature. This is something they wanted to do for a while. I knew that from like 2019. I knew they wanted that and He and he contacted me last year and he had told me there was a few jobs.

One of them was the president of Grove City College. So and I was hoping for that in a way because I'm like, oh you'd be so close for our men's retreat if you were at Grove City, it's just like a four-hour drive or whatever, but He I I never talked to him deeply about this.

But he chose founders over all the other things and I happen to know he was offered jobs at the blaze. He would he could have gotten a job in politics board ministry or education in so many different places at prestigious levels and He wanted to go to this little small seminary in Southwest, Florida.

That didn't really have a reputation yet didn't have hardly any students I think they may have 12 enrolled this year something like that. It's ground floor stuff.

And I think that's interesting that that's where he chose to go.

Because I think for him training pastors was more important than all those other things. And I'll just say one other thing about him Votie Bachum in my limited interactions with them. I mean he would have called me a friend, but we didn't know each other that well.

It was mostly.

Him calling me and asking me super random questions about you know, Al Moller or what? You know, I'm like, why are you asking me your Votie Bachum? He'll call me up and he'd be like, hey John is Al is he still any good?

I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? Don't you know he's like, yeah, but you follow this stuff, you know, and he listened to my podcast. I always thought that was weird. He you know, I start to tell him something.

He's like, I know I heard it on your podcast I'm like, oh man, I got lost what I say on that so I was honored by that but you know, he was such a normal guy and When I first met him, I just remember thinking man this guy's.

He told me we were gonna go chop it up, that's what he said. Because I went to Southeastern he went to Southeastern. He said we got to go chop it up and I was like, what does that mean? And I said it's meant talking.

So so we chopped it up. I mean we we talked and And that was kind of the beginning of our friendship and he was always encouraging. He prayed for me when we were having fertility issues. Which was always meant a lot to me.

He you know, we talked about adoption there was a few different things that I had questions I asked him. And he gave always really good advice. And so that's kind of my relationship with him, but I'm very sad to see him go.

I Think this is leaving a big hole. That's not going to be filled anytime soon. And I don't know what to make of that. So I've talked enough. Anyone else want to share stories thoughts?

The Character of Voddie Baucham and His Love for the Ordinary Person

I'll just say I mean you mentioned him going to a small seminary. But I mean look what he did at the at the peak you might say of his If you want be celebrity pastor preaching. What does he do except he goes to Africa to go and teach in a seminary there?

You know and it tells you about the character of the man. He wasn't looking for the fame and the celebrity status and all that. He was he was looking to do where he felt God wanted him to be and Impacting who he thought God wanted him to that.

You told some personal stories, I mean I shared with John at dinner. You know one of the things that first really impressed me Vody is. So Vody and I've had a share a love for something outside of theology, which is Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

And he and I were just talking Brazilian jiu-jitsu at one time. We hadn't really it was like the first or second time we met. Phil Johnson walks over and says I want to ask you a theological questions like I'll talk to you later.

You know talk with Andrew. And what it helped me realize is Vody Bachum didn't care about the status of the person that wanted to talk to him like a Phil Johnson. He cared about whoever he was speaking to.

And that told me something about his character because there's a lot of guys that's like, oh Phil Johnson wants me. Sorry, I gotta go for the important person, right? Whoever was talking to him and I Was with him enough to see him do that with you.

Wouldn't he focused on who he was talking with? And that was the most important person he could talk to at that moment. That told me a lot about his character. To the question of where we go from here and I kind of mentioned this at dinner I.

The Local Church, Celebrity Pastors, and the Need for Fathers

Really think that maybe.

Maybe what God's doing is trying to take us out of having the celebrity pastors Who are we all look up to rather than our own pastors? Maybe the issue is that we've been so focused on our tribalism and following people online and having our YouTube Preachers and we're not listening to our local pastor who God has put in our life to train us and to shepherd us.

We're trying to be shepherded by someone on YouTube that never works. The man who is to shepherd you is the man who You are in his church and under his shepherdship and he's your pastor. So maybe What might be good out of this is to have people?

Seeing the you know the importance of the local church.

Rather than. Well the platform building, you know all these guys that are trying to instead of doing ministry build a platform for themselves. I mean some of the things you mentioned in in your message, you know, it's just these guys that are.

They're saying things and doing things because hey. It gets away from tradition, but it gets it gets a platform. So maybe it's time we get back to the local church. And I know some pastors here.

I've got a couple comments on that one. I would I would we talked about that a little bit at dinner to the I think there's something to that for sure I've certainly as a local church pastor had the issue.

Well, Paul Washer said this I'm like, well He might have said that in a particular context. But let me give you a little bit more of a of a personal touch to what is going on in your life, right? So there's something absolutely to that.

There's something else also though of The recognition of the need for fathers in a society and and and we recognize this even in in the Scripture and the Old Testament, especially and you have the fathers you have the tradition holders the ones who make sure that the tradition is held and that and that you look to and so often in Israel you'd Have the prophets but you have the Kings and whichever way those guys go.

There's a significant impact and we were talking about how When in the president changes, what do you have five shifts? Right, and so when you have these fathers that you look to which when when 2020 happened and Covid and then people were thinking that they were trying to make the best decisions that they could but what's John MacArthur gonna do?

Because we because John MacArthur Represented a father figure who was known for his stalwart stances on truth and on Scripture and so he was such an important figure that gave Courage built a spine in those local pastors.

So yes, local pastors are important local churches are important. But fathers and and I think there's something to voting even be a guy who's not looking for it Gets it anyway because people see that he's not looking for it and because people Recognize in him a type of of character a type of voice.

That's important. So on the big scale it is a big hit because I think because of the torch passing I think from guys like MacArthur passing away guys like Charlie Kirk who were playing a big role in the culture and a guy like Votie Bacchum now in Such a young age and I was reflecting on I thought it was MacArthur and I'm starting to think again.

It might have been Sproul that said it MacArthur telling the story. But when James Montgomery Boyce died, it was people declared that is the the death of James Boyce is judgment upon America and I don't know.

I don't not ready to make that proclamation, but I'm concerned that God may be. This is a form of judgment upon America to take Votie Bacchum To glory second thing. I want to just kind of comment on I was John had had leaked.

He was used by leaker and I think that Votie was fighting to be here.

But John Lee.

We couldn't contain his excitement right that Votie was planning to be among us and just to be an attendee.

So at least we didn't. I told my wife tonight if she was like he didn't tell me I was. John told me nothing.

And so or Tim Tim's like.

What am I chopped liver.

Anyway.

And it was going to be a There was a slight, you know era of intimidation for voting to be an attendee. While I'm speaking when I was planning to say something along the lines of I'm Practically regurgitating Votie's influence in my life.

Votie's had a huge influence on me. I taught on on Biblical manhood womanhood and then and then marriage and I'm I'm talking about I'm using his rubric. You know, what's the man? What what must he be if he wants to marry my daughter?

He's got to be a prophet priest provider and a protector. That's Votie Bacchum. Like it's it's just kind of it's in me. What's a worldview? It's a person's view of God man sin and salvation that just came from Votie Bacchum.

I have a I have a family integrated church because in part because he gave voice to a lot of the things I was thinking. To describe and understand what used to be called just church. Okay, so those texts and there was another there's another one.

Feel like it's on the tip of my tongue. Oh, yeah, I was in seminary I took a church planting class and you had to do various things about different church plants and they had planted Grace Family Baptist Church and in Texas, I forget the town Spring, Texas and I looked at there.

I pulled their bulletin off of their website and my bulletin is is modeled after their bulletin.

I mean.

So many different things like the fact that they prayed for a government officials by name and church family people by name. The hymn of the month. We have a hymn of the month because Votie Bacchum had hymn of the month.

My introduction of Votie came through the homeschool movement and his Involvement working with Doug Phillips, right? You remember. Anybody remember Doug Phillips, right? Yeah. Well sadly he demonstrated what was going on there, but That was that was early on.

That's that's back when Votie still had the cool mustache.

And.

You know, we we would listen to some of the stuff. In fact, I think what we were still listening to.

CDs.

Now it's on your phone and you got a telephone on your phones. Everything's different. You have a telephone on your phone. Yeah, you know that a pocket computer as a. Awesome but yeah, just to echo what brother said here the Family stuff and I'm still what's the one?

How do we know the Bible is the Word of God? It's a reliable source of historical documents. It and then I kind of trail off after that because it does go on. But it's it's great. And let me just say this about Andrew talking about the local church.

Faithfulness in Small Things and Raising Up the Next Generation

Local church. We do kind of work together. There there are those statesmen in church life that that we can all think of somebody in our in our own experience who Was it was an honorable statesman? Guys like boys.

Guys like.

MacArthur.

You know and even going back to the 70s and you know, they're gone now. And Bodie was one of those guys. And I'll tell a quick story. I Haven't processed yet. I got the text from my wife while y 'all were doing your little coffee clutch over there and suffer tonight.

Have you heard and she said and I'm saying I'm ready to cry, you know I'm big old man. The only the only thing I cry at is I would have gone to the gates of Mordor or my captain my king, you know. No, this is this is real and at founders 2021.

Sitting on the front row. It's a Sunday school time for grace. Bible grace. Babbage Church. Coral Gables. They're having a panel discussion. It's Tom Askew. Bodie Bockham. Tom Nettles. When you Write freeform, right?

Well Bodie's talking about how critical race theory is like What the old Greek democracy and he says, you know, it's like the tyrant and he starts going like this. But he can't think of the reference.

Does anyone know the reference if I'm going like this? I Said screw tape letters. I knew exactly what he meant because it's it's such a. It's such a lively trope of cutting the heads off of everything in front of you.

So it all looks even when you're done. I just loved his insight and his ability. Thanks and I think one of the things that I'm not a prophet or son of prophet. None of us are. But but but number one, yes.

We're in a real transition time in our country. I'm I'm a Whitefield on America.

But I'm.

Less Confident about the church right now. Every Lord's Day almost every Lord's Day when I'm doing pastoral prayer or the call to worship. I Said God grant reformation to your church so that you can grant revival in the land.

Because if we have revival and our churches stay weak and ineffectual and impotent and effeminate and cowardly and third way. We won't know to do it or revive and we'd be like, oh, let's reproduce more of this.

It seems to work. No, no God do it. My next-door neighbor is a Church of God Anderson pastor. And he's got just just from us and a bunch of pastors gone from fully Galatarian Patriarchal he's taking his church out of their denomination threats the whole bit.

So I'm like, okay if and it was just me and another guy talking and praying and sharing and here's the hermeneutic, but he's sharp young man and When that happens, I'm like, okay, they're their worship doesn't look like ours.

They're still doing a lot of the modern music. Three notes in my wife and I are like that's Christian radio. But. But I'm something as critical as that that gives me hope for the church. God does what he does you know, we pray we do the work we pray and And if any if anything man that there's big wall left by Bodie's death.

And.

And this it's gonna be tough because you know, my goodness He's one of the more articulate guys out there and didn't care what anyone thought. We need more people like that. You cannot fear fear man. You just got to worry about being faithful to God.

I don't care about that stuff. And then God says what you're faithful and small things give you more.

So I can stand on that one, okay, I'm not trying that Bodie. I really don't know much about him. Yeah, well, then you're probably more from my sons than you know me. I was looking forward to meeting him if he came and I know he's not coming like, okay.

Yeah, I want to just kind of hang out with them this ball stuff. You guys have said over the years Faithfulness and small things. If you look at the back the lies of any of these guys talking about that's where they began.

Yeah, they were just simply faithful. MacArthur was never looking to build a platform. Sure. He was never looking to build a radio ministry to take mystery any of them. This was I'm going to serve my church and we preach the word and it began with the recording fit and Maybe I'm old right?

I remember cassette tapes. Remember eight track Electra 225 with an eight track. Oh, yeah, so we had to take Shaq. And it began there and this is well, maybe we could this in the radio. John didn't do any of that other people came and did it even simply faithful to what he was called to do which was pastor.

I I'm in the transition from Talbot to master seminary when it started, you know. And there was a lot that went into that decision. But most of it came to is his commitment to wanting to see trained men.

They would to go and pastor. Be able to dig into the Word of God and be true to the Word of God. He was never looking for people to look to him. He didn't like that. He didn't like people saying MacArthur says he wanted you to go back to the scriptures the scriptures say and That was how I've always tried to do all my ministries.

Well, what does this Word of God say? Instead of looking to other people and part of the reason I think this hits harder is we're in a culture That looks to certain people that they're gonna leave us and maybe it's just because I am a little older.

I Can't remember a time. We didn't have somebody very important die whether they're young or old or anything else and We've always been in a transition at some point. Well, I'm gonna die too for the reason of putting stuff into my boys.

Now my young men. Very proud of them was for that very thing is they're gonna carry it the next generation. So I got to tell this story. Because I think it illustrates what we should be doing. Not just as fathers.

But in any ministry we have whether it is pastoral ministry whether it's leading music whether you're teaching kids whatever you are doing is. You're raising up that next generation and that's completely in God's hands of who's going to be next.

So the boy again, John wasn't looking for it. God just kept doing it and it just became bigger and bigger and bigger and You know Bodie definitely wasn't looking for it from say it like it's like yeah, okay, I'll go do this instead.

We're always looking to disciple people and that's what God has called us to do so when Jonathan was 12 or so we used to arm us. Because it was the first time you know, you you play with your kids and he's.

He's got some strength.

There's resistance here now, so I've we played it on and I put him down and then look that means to dad I'm gonna beat you someday. And I came around the table and I said, you know what I'm gonna say when you do that, you know, what what dad said.

That's my son.

Take credit for it. That's my son.

Because if we're doing what we are supposed to be doing so the question was what do we do from here? We do what we're supposed to be doing. We just dig in the disciple people for our lives into them and then we get to watch to see what God is going to do with them and Whether it's a very close personal relationship like I have with my sons and I am very proud all three of them.

The youngest one, I guess you just needed bigger engine so now he's a train mechanic, you know, we need a bigger diesel engines. But if I look at the people that we've been able to pour into so people I poured into a church.

Then poured into other people poured into other people. So some of the Culinary Institute Kids you can recognize them. They're working on staff. They'd like to CIA they had their shirt on. So parish was here Nick was here these are people that were discipled in our church while they're attending seminary and.

They're up here and they're having another impact in an up in another area a different area. But that's what we want to see. We want to see them keep going and wherever God has put them. They start having an impact on those feet.

So who do we need another MacArthur another Bodie? Well, I hope we raise up somebody because there's a lot of people just can't seem to make a decision themselves.

You need something to tell them what to do. I don't mind doing it. I mean, it's.

I'll tell people. Maybe.

You know.

They were but we're gonna continue to do that and we're gonna watch to see who God raises and then they'd be already present. They just don't have that platform that people are looking for but they didn't fable this been doing what they're supposed to be doing and God will raise them up.

He always has. You know, you look back over life and you see people who are so important and They passed away and you know, or they switched to a different ministry went to do something else and there's a lot of implications for that.

Okay, God raises somebody else up and that's what we want to do. We're gonna be faithful. We're gonna continue on and And raise more one thing that I'm very hurt. The whole chart occurred. Assassination is how many people say.

Then I'm gonna go do what he was doing. Do you know what that sounds like? How many mission stories have you heard over the years? The missionary got killed. He became a martyr in the field and other people went to replace him and multiplied it.

That's what we do.

That's that's exactly what I was gonna ask was the question of you know, what? Do we think that With what we saw with Charlie Kirk everyone saying I'm Charlie Kirk as Christians. We say I'm of Christ not I'm Charlie Kirk, but but we saw so many people do that With all these leaders John that we're talking about.

Could it be that God is? looking for us to step up where we've kind of rested in the strength of a MacArthur to take on the fight and Lead it and we can sit back and is it a time for us to step up?

There's always a time to step up. I Think I'm gonna I'm joking about I'll tell people what to do. I think actually If you if you set out with that goal, that's probably a good indication. You shouldn't be the person in that position.

That's right, right if you because that's our natural instinct as men I think is to want to control to one and there's a healthy Dominion aspect to this where we Responsibilities for the love of people but there's an unhealthy James three calls it selfish ambition where you go out there to Make much of yourself.

So everyone glorifies you and builds your platform instead of God's platform, right?

So I think a person of the old Groucho Marx I refuse it to join a club that would consider having me as a member. It's the corollary of that. It's like no. Yeah, just just like that. Exactly.

Totally lost my train of thought.

Those who oh those. Forward so so virtue. You're too young to be having these effect.

So no, I'm thinking about though. Well the last conference I was on I thought about virtue and its counterfeits. I had so many people text me after that and say that was like I was one big a really helpful Talk and you know, I've been thinking about this and writing about it.

And I think that I've just scratched the surface of what virtue is. That's the funny thing about it. Like I'm gonna do a talk on virtue and you're like, man, I get 10 talk I give you 20 talks like because it's such an extensive topic and it is the need of the day.

We don't have leaders With virtue anymore. That's the thing that really stands out. Okay, that's honestly that is the lesson from 2020. It's not that woke ideology was wrong. The problem is we had weak people in positions and guess what look at them now look, did you I don't if you notice the ERLC is now cutting ties with the evangelical immigration team and the gospel coalition.

Jared Taylor is praising Charlie Kirk and I mean he used to you know, say you shouldn't listen to Charlie Kirk essentially and it's. There's there's a shift going on in the world. And so the opportunities just show a shift with it and they're looking to maintain their position and it's it there's nothing Convictional principle or virtuous about any of it.

It's literally just trying to retain I think a spot on the top of the hill and And you can get there you can get to the top of the hill through networking through manipulative techniques through there's all there are ways.

You can gain that but I'll tell you what I don't think you could put your head at night down at the pillow at night. And I know I couldn't and feel good about any of it and convince myself while I'm reaching all these people.

Yeah, but But who what are you reaching them for? Why are for yourself for your own? If there's someone who can do it better than me, I want them to do it. I don't want to do it, right? That's it's kind of the attitude.

I think we should all have to some extent is yeah, we need to step up. So that's going back to your question. We need to step up, but I think it's with an attitude of submission to Lord wherever you have for me is where I want to be if that's carrying the luggage for the guy who's gonna be the big Name, I want to carry the luggage.

I want to it's it's all about God. I mean or Watching a guy and watching the decisions. He makes watching what happens at news cycles. You can kind of start to tell Where the motives are where them is it with building their own platform or building a platform for the Lord?

So we we're in that's in demand right now virtuous leaders. If you haven't listened to that, you know, I'd expand a lot more on this. But I have a question I want to throw out there so Unless you want to keep going on this vein, but I think this is a big question in people's minds.

The Danger of Transgressive Right-Wing Identity and Counterfeit Virtue

Where is God? What's he doing? And the reason I say that isn't just because of Modi Bachel. It's Charlie Kirk. It's John MacArthur. It's Who is the Ops adoption James Dobson. It's the disqualification of Steve Lawson and Josh Bice and sort of the g3 imploding.

It's I mean even smaller Platforms like Kato, you know, I don't think some of you know who that is. Maybe you might not.

I mean.

He was kind of an anti-woke voice for a while and he runs off and it sounds like he had an affair or something. But he's he's out of the ministry. Whatever ministry he had I guess it was online. Sort of apologetics thing, but it's like you see all this and it's in a ship such a short period of time and you wonder Okay, Lord.

What are you doing with this like that? This doesn't seem like a coincidence. I think people are thinking that everywhere especially at Charlie Kirk and voting Bach on that quick. That's that is a double whammy to some people because they're I'm telling you a lot of the guys in our circles Charlie Kirk was their main political influence and Bode Bach was their main spiritual influence other than maybe Arthur which wasn't that and MacArthur to so much.

Yeah. So so I got to throw this out there what in the world is God doing like wouldn't he leave us a Bode Bachman if He's gonna take John MacArthur.

Well, so I've got. So I have some concern. I'm not a concern broke, but I am okay. The thing that concerns me is What people have pointed out. It's nothing original with me, but I do think it does point to a significant element in How things go a trajectory in the future for our country and for the state of this revival that supposedly happening relative to Charlie Kirk's best and.

That is there's you have to have it from all fronts. If the if the government does not wield the sword against evil this thing goes away. Because it will go away this this thing withers on the vine. We don't have that the you actually have to have I think Spiritual voices and you're gonna have to have the political will to actually confront evil.

So you have to have the voices that are that are confronting evil and then in order to to progress. Otherwise, there's I think my concern. I'm not profiters on the profit either. I am a lever just for.

But the.

But the only the concern I have is that this this thing this thing withers. Because I think there is a problem with Will and the virtue to actually do one's job in one sphere. And if the if the government does not wield the sword against evil, I think there's I think there's a bigger view of judge of God's judgment upon the nation then because then evil I think is going to retaliate in a way that weak weak churches weak people.

Some of my talk is gonna even be relative. I'm gonna bring in tradition a little bit more. Why is the Evangelical Church not riding the wave of?

Young men.

Red pilling and opening their eyes. Why are they going to Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism? It's cuz the Evangelical Church ain't ready for them. They're not we're not ready for because we're cuz we're we're kind of gay, right and it's not good.

We're feminine and we don't have what we we're not who we ought to be. And so we're not we're not seeing and so that's part of my concern. We're not ready. We're not ready. And so then if we don't I think if we that's that's where I'm at if we don't see the political Vibe shift actually transferred into into the will to to deal with Eve.

I think we have a reverse effect and the Excitement the energy withers. That's my opinion.

What may encourage it. Because what also happened at the same time of? Hearing about his passing is that they invented coming?

So maybe that's maybe it's a story they are.

What they died of the whole means it's just been indicted. Just our girl at the same time that we heard about.

It's kind of surreal to see the political victories because Trump's in office, but then at the same time. Experience. It's a huge thing. Oh, I know. I'm not saying yeah, it's a small thing.

It's just it's like you want to rejoice. There's you all. Is there actually like a Republican that has backbone in this like.

Don't do something. So many. I think I agree with what Danny was saying. So many Evangelicals that I had leaders I should say not even gel but the leaders that I tracked. We're just doing everything they could to disassociate with Trump to make it harder for Trump to signal to their audience.

It's okay.

If you don't vote for Trump like going out of their way.

Yeah.

And it's like that but that was where the energy to do something about evil was. And like people voted for Trump primarily I think they wanted him to punish evil even if he's got his own personal issues and that's what they wanted him to do because they saw a bigger problem with and they Thought he would because of what happened with them.

He would yeah. Well, yeah, especially after the assassination of James.

The Need for Moral Courage, Political Will, and Rebuilding Christian Leadership

Let me ask John it and this is more things. We've talked privately but to you know what Dan's saying. You know, it's a self from about the the fact that the evangelical church just isn't ready. We've talked about the fact that you know, yeah, but there's other people who have been talking about Masculinity and they've kind of taken it Difficult.

Yeah, so so do you see concern with the fact that okay? Is he saying the evangelical church isn't ready? But some of reformed circles that may be going the way we we wouldn't agree with they already in and is that a concern?