The Triumph of the Lamb — Michael L. Brown

We ask you for the eyes of our understanding to be opened. We pray for ears to hear, for a heart to respond. We pray as always, God, that you would change us so we could go out and change our world. In Jesus' name, Amen.

For those that are listening to this online, it's November 12th, 2006, here at the FIRE community in Concord. If you are here in this meeting, let it be known. Okay, great. I want you to turn with me to Revelation 5.

The Triumph of the Lamb and God’s Contrary Ways

And I have some things of real importance to share with you today. A lot's happened in the last couple of weeks here in the States. There's been a tragic scandal with a national Christian leader whom we all hurt for together.

There have been some major shifts in the elections. A lot's going on, and I believe there's some key things that we need to hear, a perspective we need to have. God dropped a theme in my heart when we were in India a couple of weeks ago.

The Lord was really doing some great things with good numbers of people there. The leaders' meetings in the daytime, there were 7 ,000 leaders. Not an exaggerated figure. I mean, there was a tremendous crowd of leaders that come from all over the city and all over India.

When there was a youth meeting from a teenager up into their 30s, we had a good 10 ,000 people for that. By the second night of meetings, we were well over 40 ,000 people attending. And then rain started to come, heavy rains, heavy winds.

The field, the cricket stadium there was getting very muddy. Saturday, when it was time for the night message, it was amazing. The crowd was growing despite the weather. And just when it was time for the message, rain started to come.

Everything had to be cut short. And then I was going to be speaking. Steve Hill and I were sharing the meetings. I was going to be speaking now the final Sunday morning. And most of the folks, the pastors, had gone back for their services.

And because of the rains, the crowd was much smaller. And because it was Sunday, it was really just the main leaders' congregation that was gathered there Sunday morning. So we were in the hundreds versus the thousands under this long tent with heavy rain around us.

And just you had to go trekking through the mud to get anywhere. And I thought, really, this is a bit more of a picture of the kingdom than the big crowds and the excitement of that. There's something that God wants to say to us in the midst of this.

And if you want a title for the message, it's the triumph of the Lamb. So I want you to go with me to Revelation chapter 5. Revelation 5, I want to lay out some principles and then talk directly about some of the things that have been happening.

Revelation chapter 5, verse 1. Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll.

But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or to look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, do not weep, see the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

The root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals. This is exciting. The triumphant one, the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Yes. I mean, we like that. Root of David has triumphed.

He can open the scrolls. Verse 6, then I, what's this? Then I saw a lamb. They've just announced the triumph of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, who's going to open the scroll and reveal its contents. And John looks and he said, then I saw a lamb looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

The great triumph is announced, the triumph of the Lion of the tribe of Judah. And when John looks, he sees a lamb looking as if it has been slain. Hear me, God's ways are not our ways. And God does not always work in the ways that we think are best and the ways that we think will bring about the best results.

In John, the 12th chapter, some Greek speaking Jews come to Jesus, they want to see him, and he says, beginning in verse 23, now is the time for the Son of Man to be glorified. I mean, think, you got there at just the right moment, he's going to be glorified.

What, maybe he'll put on a display of miracles, maybe he'll raise his hand and the heavens will light up around him. Maybe there'll be like the Mount of Transfiguration and more. Maybe he'll call down fire from heaven, maybe he'll cause an earthquake, maybe miracles will just begin to happen.

Now the Son of Man, the Son of God will be glorified. And then he says, unless a grain of wheat falls in the ground and dies, it remains alone. If it dies, it bears much fruit. The way that he's going to be glorified is by dying, by laying down his life, and that is the path and the key to resurrection.

See, we think that power consists of numbers, consists of influence, consists in finances, consists in success. And even though God can work through all those things, he defines power very differently.

And often he manifests his power most greatly through our weakness. His ways are not our ways. Luke 16, Jesus addressed those who esteem themselves so highly, some of the religious leaders that seem to be the key men in this society.

And he said, you're the ones that justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts, for that which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16, 15, that which is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

God is often looking at things through completely different lenses than we are. I read an article recently about Heidi Baker ministering. Many of you know the work of Roland and Heidi Baker in Africa, extraordinary work.

The Kabbas just got to spend some time with the Bakers and hear even more firsthand of what God's doing through them. I mean, extraordinary miracles, blind beggars coming and eyes being opened, deaf ears of children, orphans being opened.

7 ,000 churches they planted and they worked with the poorest of the poor. And most of us would define poverty a certain level and then be shocked to see the poorest of the poor around the world. And Jesus once said to her, to Heidi Baker, come up to the lowest place.

In other words, ministering to the poor and the hurting and the outcasts and the nobodies in this world, that's coming up. That's coming up to the lowest place. God's got the whole thing turned upside down.

Numbers, Success, and Trust in the Arm of Flesh

Now listen, God often blesses and brings increase in all these ways that I mentioned, in numbers and in influence and in finance and success. You read the book of Acts and it gives the account, the number 3 ,000, Shavuot, Pentecost, coming to the Lord, being added to the body.

And then it grows to 5 ,000. By the time you get to the sixth chapter of Acts, it mentions that many priests are becoming obedient to the faith. When you get to the 21st chapter, it's speaking of myriads of thousands who are believers.

Around the throne, according to Revelation 7, there'll be a multitude that nobody can number. But we make a fatal error. We make a terrible mistake and it often is fatal, often it's a matter of life and death.

When we put our trust in those things, when we trust in our numbers, when we trust in our power, when we trust in our influence, when we trust in our finances, when we trust in some level of success, be it numbers in the government, be it numbers in a congregation, we make a fatal mistake when we put our trust in the arm of flesh on any level.

And often that is the key to our spiritual undoing. That's often the key to our failures and our shortcomings. It's a key to our powerlessness here in America to have such massive numbers and yet to be so ineffective in terms of really impacting the culture with the message and life of Jesus.

Take a look with me in 2 Samuel 24. There's a parallel to this in 1 Chronicles 21 that many people notice. 2 Samuel 24 1, it says, The anger of the Lord burned against Israel and he incited David against them.

That's 2 Samuel 24 1. 1 Chronicles 21 1, it says that Satan incited David. The answer being very simple, because God was angry with David that Satan was then used as a tool to incite David. 2 Samuel 24 1, again, The anger of the Lord burned against Israel and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.

What's so bad about that? How is this a provocation of wrath? How is this going to bring judgment on the people? I mean, God took censuses of the people, counts of the people, beginning and end of numbers, and they're numbered there.

You have different counts, given the exiles returning and Ezra and Nehemiah. Counts are made. What's so bad about numbering the people? And why was it often considered dangerous and associated with special offerings to turn away wrath?

So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men so that I may know how many there are. But Joab replied to the king, May the Lord your God multiply the troops a hundred times over and may the eyes of my Lord the king see it.

But why does my Lord the king want to do such a thing? But he went and did it and then wrath broke out and it brought a terrible plague of judgment on the nation. Thank God for little children making noise.

You say, easy for you to say. Listen to what Matthew Henry said about it. He went through five different reasons of trying to explain what it was that was so bad that David did. And then he comes across this, which I believe is the right explanation.

He said, that which was the worst thing in numbering the people was that David did it in the pride of his heart, which was Hezekiah's sin and showing his treasures to the ambassadors. It was a proud conceit of his own greatness and having the command of so numerous a people as if their increase, which was to be ascribed purely to the blessing of God, had been owing to any conduct of his own.

It was a proud confidence in his own strength. By publishing among the nations the number of his people, he thought to appear the more formidable and doubted not that if he should have any war, he should overpower his enemies with the multitude of forces, trusting in God only.

See, the problem was, as it says in Psalm 33, no king is saved by the size of his army. The problem is as blessings come, as numbers increase, you begin to think, now we can do something. Now we have power.

Now we are somebody. Forgetting that we only triumph in terms of God's kingdom advancing, lives being changed, and Jesus being exalted. We only move forward by the grace and power of God. And yes, He can use numbers.

And yes, He can use our united voice. And yes, He can use our united serving and giving and all these different things. But the key to the power lies at the throne of God. And the moment that we put our trust in the wrong place, the moment that we think, we've got all these numbers at the voting polls, we've got these mega churches, we've got this, we've got that.

At that moment, we make a fatal error. And at that moment, we are thinking of things just the way the world thinks. Let me say again, God's ways are not our ways. The lion of the tribe of Judah who triumphs is the lamb looking as if it had been slain.

Dying as the Supreme Weapon of the Kingdom

There's a Romanian pastor, Joseph Tsan, not living in Romania now, but when he was being interrogated by the police, he had been beaten and threatened many times. He was being interrogated and he thought they've come to the point of killing him.

And he said to them, he said, your supreme weapon is killing. My supreme weapon is dying. He said, my tapes, my messages are all over Romania. He said, if you kill me, all those tapes will be sprinkled with blood.

And then everyone will say, we need to hear what this man had to say because he was willing to die for it. And at that point, they became afraid to kill him and thought the only choice is to exile him.

God's ways are not our ways. You may see a scene somewhere, maybe in Indonesia, Muslim riots and Christians being killed. You may get the reports through Voice of the Martyrs and other ministries, believers being beheaded, chopped up, burned alive, church buildings being torn down.

Terrible suffering. Radical Islam lifting its voice. And you're watching the scene, you're watching people getting destroyed. You're watching God's people suffering terribly. You're watching what looks like the triumph of Islam and God's looking at that and saying, I've got them just where I want them.

When the dust settles, listen to me, when the dust settles, some years later, you'll see that the kingdom of God has advanced. You'll see that there's been great increase among the believers. Joseph Tsang said this, the sovereignty of God means Satan at the end, always finds out that he just promoted God's cause.

All God's enemies combine to destroy his work and they always discover at the end that they just promoted it. I mean, think of the ways of God. He looks down at a rebellious earth. He looks down at wickedness and sin.

He looks at people that will not have him as God. Maybe the angels come around the throne and God says, I have the solution. I know just what I'm going to do to assert my rule as king over these people.

Angels are, yes. What is it? I'm going to send my son to die for them. I'm going to send my son as a lamb that they will crucify. And that's how I'm going to win. Your supreme weapon is killing. My supreme weapon is dying.

It can be terrifying to see if you're in a country being persecuted. Maybe you see these signs that are becoming more common around the world. You see them maybe pictures from England of Muslim demonstrations and they have these signs, behead those who insult Islam, that appeal to the flesh, to anger, to violence.

You have to take over. You have to be forceful. That's how you win. You contrast that spirit, behead those who insult Islam. How dare you call us terrorists? We'll kill you if you call us terrorists. You want to know the real revolutionary spirit?

You want to know the spirit that really brings about change? You want to know how the kingdom's advanced? Not through anger and hatred and violence and power, earthly power. You know how it's advanced?

Forgiveness and the Witness of the Amish

We saw a great demonstration of it just recently. Among the Amish communities. I mean, you think of this, the slaughter. Ten. You want to get a picture of innocence. You know, little Amish girls. Ten of them shot.

Five dead. Either immediately or shortly thereafter. Beginning at the age of six. Our oldest granddaughter's almost six. It was so easy for me to picture just the innocence of a little six-year-old and the terror of the moment.

I just would read accounts and just sit in my room and cry. And then the thing that was so overwhelming was the immediate report from every angle. Anyone that talked to anybody, the reports came the same way.

We must offer forgiveness. We're not angry because we know that Christ has forgiven us. And we offer the same forgiveness. I mean, immediately, they start raising charitable funds for the wife or the murderer.

Now that she's a widow. They attend the funeral. One pastor was visiting one of the families. And here's the mother just gently preparing the body of her six-year-old in her white dress, just preparing her for burial.

And he said that finally something happened and he had to leave the room. He was just too overwhelmed. It was when the grandfather came in with his granddaughter about to be buried in her little white dress.

He gathers the rest of the children together to explain to them the importance of forgiveness. That's how God's kingdom advances. You know, all the might, the power, the anger. You think we've got to respond in kind.

Compassion, Resistance, and a Sacrificial Witness

That's where we lose. That's where we guarantee defeat. That's when we have nothing whatsoever to do with the Spirit of Jesus. I was preaching in India on this theme and suddenly it hit me. A question hit me.

You know, God's really spoken to us to to tackle the whole issue of the activist homosexual agenda. Reach out and resist. Reach out to individual homosexual men and women with compassion. Resist the agenda with courage.

And there's a book I've been working on. Hopefully next year we'll have it out called The Queer Thing Happened to America about the activist agenda. And somehow I believe God wants to use the book to make an impact.

And the question hit me. What if God's purpose in me writing the book is that it would then draw attention to what I have to say and then get me in front of the media where I would be crucified, humiliated, mocked and just turned into a sacrificial lamb so that people would see the true spirit of those that oppose.

In other words, show up as a lamb among wolves so that the real wolves can be exposed as they chew you up. See, in my thinking it would be, yeah, I'll have the right answer. You know, maybe there'll be some setting where there'll be some debate or discussion and I'll have the perspective they've never thought of.

Have you considered this? Aha! And I felt like God said, what if I want to raise you up to be crucified, be mocked, humiliated, can't get a word out of your mouth, you just seem like an idiot. And that's the purpose of it.

Scott said that's good. Bless you. Bless you. Tremendous support we have from the leadership team here at FIRE. But amen. I agree. That's good. Let me just tell you a little story. Some years ago, when Phil Donahue was back on the air, I was asked to be on a show with our friend Rabbi Shmueli Boteach and a well-known Baptist leader, key Christian spokesman, Albert Mohler.

We were on together and then they were doing another show, a live show, towards the end of the year, December 17th, that particular year. And could I come on again with Shmueli and Albert Mohler? And this time they were going to have another guest who was a liberal Christian, very much not believing in the authority of Scripture the way we would.

And then another guest, I didn't know who it was, turned out to be Flip Benham, meeting for the first time. And this particular show, just the nature of it and the live audience and everything, I didn't get to say much.

We had a staff gathering at our house that night, end of the year holiday party, and I wasn't there for it, so they watched on television and they were more frustrated than I was. The only way to say something would have been to kind of just yell above everybody.

So here and there I got to say a few things and some key lines, but not much else. I remember thinking at a certain point, they just could have put a stick with a smiling face on it, in the chair. Would have been just as effective.

Now, thankfully, Dr. Moeller got to say some very clear things and Flip got to confront Phil Donahue straight on about his own life. The message went forth in many ways, but I thought, boy, that was, you know, if they ask me on again, I'm going to say, only on the condition that you let me talk.

So some months go by and I'm flying out of Pensacola, two ladies getting on the plane and they say, were you on Donahue? I said, yeah, some time ago. They said, we just watched that. I said, well, there was a live show with an audience.

They said, yeah, that was the one. I said, oh, in what context? They said, well, we're part of a pro-life ministry and we had a regional or a national gathering here in Pensacola, whatever it was, and the director was talking about, you know, when the world attacks us and so on and we're going to be dealing with a lot of hostility and they said, they showed that episode to use you as a model of how to respond graciously under fire.

It's like, isn't that interesting? Thankfully, others got to speak and the message went out in different ways, but you never really know. I mean, we think if we could just have this setting, this position, that'll do it and God may have a completely different purpose, completely different way of doing things.

I'll say it again. His ways are not our ways and it's time for us here in the States in particular, where we have so many numbers, where we have so many people in high places, be it in the government, be it in the business world, be it in the media, be it in the sports world, you name it, just out there.

Self-Confidence, Scandal, and the Need for Humility

It's so easy for us to trust in the wrong things and it is so easy for us to forget what the gospel is really about. There is the constant challenge that we can easily deceive ourselves. Listen, we believe God wants to grow and increase fire.

The congregation, the school, the world missions work. As we're leading the coalition of conscience here in the city, we believe God wants to increase that in numbers, in different ways. And those of you that are seeking to follow the Lord, when His blessings on you, increase comes.

Whether spiritual increase, whether increase in maturity, whether financial increase, different things. One way or another, God shows favor and there's some multiplication somewhere, somehow. And yet just as God warned in Deuteronomy 8 when He financially blessed His people that they could then put their trust in the wrong thing and they could then think, look at what we have done.

And that's the curse right there. That was the curse that Nebuchadnezzar fell on. Isn't this great Babylon that I built? Look at what I have done. Look at us. Walk around, see the buildings. Walk around, see the numbers.

Walk around, look at the bank account. Walk around, look at the press release. Walk around, look at this. And it can all go up in smoke. All you need is God just to breathe against it and it's over. Samuel Chadwick was a teacher of Leonard Ravenhill a few generations back.

Chadwick said, the church always fails at the point of self-confidence. Hear that again. The church always fails at the point of self-confidence. Years ago, someone was speaking to me about God wanted to deal with pride in my life and I examined my life based on pride the way others would think of it.

I don't care to be some big shot or big name or being in front of crowds is meaningless and this and that. I thought to myself, I'm not proud. And all the while, the thing that this person rightly saw that God then nailed me with was self-confidence.

The subtle difference between God confidence and self-confidence. And it's harder for the church to fail at the point of self-confidence when it's persecuted and beaten down. When Larry Tomczak was here with us last time, he quoted another pastor.

This is not meant to be an exact statistic but there's an overall truth of it. That the church under persecution 90 stay strong. The church under prosperity 10 stay strong. I don't think that the church in China with its extraordinary growth from less than a million at the time of the rising of communism to at least 80 million under communism.

I don't think there's any way to have that growth, to maintain that growth to see those things go forward in that way except under extreme pressure. John Piper made the comment nobody ever says I learned some tremendous lessons from the Lord during a time of ease and plenty.

No, it's during the times of adversity and challenge. You might think that the church in China thanks God for America and the liberties we have. Some Christians there pray that God would send persecution our way so that we could draw closer to Jesus.

When Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh I believe in context in 2 Corinthians 11 and 12 it's best to understand that in terms of extreme and unusual persecutions. Extreme opposition. Just think of it, wherever you go to preach instead of all the cameras around you clicking your picture and people asking for autographs they're carrying you to the jail.

They're dragging you out after being stoned. You're at somebody's home in a back room where you escaped after being whipped. God's ways are not our ways. When I heard the tragic report about Ted Haggard just aside from tremendous grief for the reputation of Jesus and then pain for him as an individual for his family and the lives that are touched I just said on a certain level it's a picture of the Evangelical Church of America.

It's a picture of the Evangelical Church of America. That we can get to a certain point access to the White House. Influence in the polling grounds. An article came out in May of last year even though New Life Church in Colorado there is not the largest it was called Soldiers of Christ Inside America's Most Powerful Mega Church.

Things can look so powerful and yet there's so much corruption in our own midst. There's so much hypocrisy in our own midst. There's so much that's not right in our own midst. There's so much that we're trying to tell the world is wrong while we ourselves are living hypocritical lives.

And again, anybody with any sense when you hear the fall of someone else you examine your own heart. Last thing you do is point fingers. You examine your own heart. You examine your own life. Then you pray for mercy for all involved.

I remember in 1987 with the shocking news of the fall of Jimmy Swigert who was then ministering, speaking to millions every week on TV. Massive ministry around the world. First the fall of Jim Baker and then Jimmy Swigert.

I remember hearing that report and even though by God's grace my life was free of sexual immorality, the pornography that plagued him. When I heard that I thought, that's me, that's us, that's all of us.

We need to humble ourselves. We're not so big. We're not so great. We're not so powerful. We need to get on our faces. Ted Haggard is the head of National Association of Evangelicals representing 30 million people.

We turn out in the voting booths. People have to listen to us. We can even control the elections. Those were some of the quotes from evangelical leaders. And yet the corruption of our own lives. One of the major issues with voters, even though there was a big shift, Republican, Democrat on the one hand, many people were voting for the same values.

They just voted for people that they felt held them better. One of the big things that they claimed they were voting against was corruption. I mean, what do you do when some of the most righteous words that are spoken in the whole mess are spoken by a homosexual prostitute?

This is what he said, what Mike Jones said. You can't put yourself in the position he was in and want respect and people to follow your words when you're actually doing the opposite behind their backs.

I read that. I didn't think of our poor brother. I thought of me. I thought of us. I thought of our people. I thought of the work we're doing. I thought of, well, how does God see us? And William Booth made the comment, founder of Salvation Army, when it was a firebrand for God, he said, the greatness of a man's power is the measure of his surrender.

To the degree that our lives are surrendered to God in private, to the degree that there's consistency and purity and wholeness, God will bless that. It doesn't matter if the whole world's watching on television.

It doesn't matter if you're ministering to a million people a week or 10 ,000 in your congregation. It doesn't matter if you're putting out books and tapes that are going all over the place. When God gets hold of somebody, God can do anything through it.

I've often said we may not know the top 100 church leaders in the world today, in terms of the people closest to God's heart, having the greatest influence. We might not know the names of any of them.

They may not have appeared in the front of our magazines and been hailed on our TV stations. Godly Scottish leader Robert Murray McShane said, I feel persuaded that if I could follow the Lord more fully myself, my ministry would be used to make a deeper impression than it has yet done.

Political Power, Cultural Conflict, and Revival

We've been saying there's a need for a fresh wave of revival. It's a critical need for awakening to come. And that there really must be a Jesus revolution in our society. Things have gone too far. So many folks have moved here recently from New Jersey.

I mean, think of the court decision in New Jersey. Four to three vote from the Supreme Court of New Jersey, ordering the legislature there to have 180 days to either form to legalize same-sex marriages or same-sex civil unions.

And you say, but it was a close vote, four to three. Well, the three were overruled by the four. The three wanted right on the spot to legalize homosexual marriages. And they were the ones appointed by a Republican governor.

Some recent things in New York City. Just within the last couple of weeks, New York Transit Authority has now passed a law that if you're a cross-dresser, you can go to the bathroom of that sex. If you're a man that cross-dresses as a woman and identifies yourself as a woman, you can go into the woman's bathroom.

Great news for the ladies, huh? You don't think there's a New York rapist or peeping Tom or sicko, aside from a cross-dresser, with whatever problems they have, that's going to use that? You think of the craziness of the whole thing.

Who's making these decisions? The most recent one in New York just happened right after it, is that you can have your birth certificate changed, you can have the gender on your birth certificate changed, simply if you self-identify as the opposite sex and have been going through some hormonal therapy.

Without a sex change operation, you can just self-identify as the opposite sex. Then who needs gay marriages? Just self-identify as the opposite sex. I mean, it's change your birth certificate. It's insanity.

We need a revolution. We need a fresh wave of revival. And what's one of the things that's holding us back the most from seeing it? Our self-confidence. Our complacency. Our trust in numbers. And hear me, our looking to the government to do what the church is supposed to do.

Should we be involved in the voting process? Of course. It's our sacred responsibility in a democratic society. Should we call on people to do what's right? Absolutely. Should we pray and fast for the right appointees in the courts to make righteous decisions?

Absolutely. But always without ever putting our trust in the system or the people. I mean, when do we figure out that that doesn't bring about change in itself? And what do we make of the fact that the greatest wave of revival that we had in America in decades took place during the Clinton administration?

Maybe Christians were putting less trust in the government or the White House and more trust in God. Look, I was pained by some of the election results, especially South Dakota. And the failure to pass a strong abortion law there that the legislature had already passed.

I was saddened by some of the other results, but as it was happening and, of course, terribly pained by the Ted Haggard situation. Again, for him, all those involved, and in particular for the name of Jesus.

But as the whole thing was happening, this encouragement was rising in my heart saying, this is the best thing that could happen to us. No, not somebody's fall into sin. No, not corruption in political leaders.

But the fact that a lot of our little kingdom just got shaken. The fact that we're going to wake up a little bit more and start to get on our faces and say, God, unless you visit us, it's over. That we'll stop just trying to live some nice life and just fit in and keep everybody happy and instead start to live with some kingdom values.

Oh, are we doing it, many here? Absolutely. God bless you for it. I'm speaking to me, to us, and speaking to the body as a whole in America. Listen to this. I found a remarkable quote from this article in May 2005 called Soldiers for Christ.

I think it was Harper's Magazine. I'm not exactly sure. I found it online. Listen to this. There was a member of New Life called Tom Parker, Commander Tom in the Royal Rangers, I think. He had a vision, apparently, and it was with some Lord of the Rings imagery and he saw Pastor Ted Haggard as one of the key players for Righteous.

I'm not familiar with the whole Lord of the Rings imagery and all of the story behind it, but I'm just going to read this to you. And apparently there was some demon who is in the story who's trying to kill one of these key guys in Lord of the Rings.

So the reporter asked Tom who had this vision. This is May of 2005. There's a demon that nearly kills Gandalf in this whole deal. That was symbolically Ted Haggard in the vision. So he said, so who's the demon?

Who's the demon that's trying to kill him? The reporter said, I expected Commander Tom to reply with the usual enemies. The culture and the homosexuals and the humanists. But the demon, he said, is inside Pastor Ted and inside every Christian.

Before the church can condemn the world. This is a secular article. Before the church can condemn the world, it must cleanse itself, thought Tom. He believed that American evangelicals were filthy with pride.