Dr. James White: Witnessing to Mormons

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Why let's at least let this be a benefit people walk for people watching. Why did you start coming out to the temple?

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Why such an aggressive? Ministry the first time we came out in 1983 my wife and I came out of the back with Kawasaki 440 the 60 ended a country club

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And I sat at the Arby's over there And I looked at this sea of people and I was like oh my goodness

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And there was there was no outreach going on right so the next year when we came out We had

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Wally Tope with us, and I don't know if you ever I don't think you ever met Wally Did you sound like a familiar name? I don't he wrote it.

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He had a had a book called on the front lines witnessing Mormon And it was one of the best one of the best most practical and how to I mean he was aggressive

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He was really he was the last person to die in the Los Angeles riots

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He you know you did tell me about you I have to witness to the to the rioters and they beat him into a coma and he was the last person to die

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Yeah as a martyr in those in those riots, so That was 84 85 as an evangelism project at Grand Canyon College my senior year

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We arranged we printed the Mormon Jesus tract we came out here with walkie -talkies

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We we had that was corner one that was corner two we had corner five down there we had it all

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I had to turn in a map as to how you you know cover the whole place and That started years and years of Ministry out here really until the streets preachers showed up And started you know and and I was the

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I was the magnet for them you were that you became the target I became the target yeah, and that was that was the problem so man for years and years and years for my kids

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This is this is where you are in the week before Easter. Yes was standing on this corner.

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There's my kids back there yeah, yeah, and So summer may try to make it out this evening anyway, so so yeah, it's just that's what started it and I'm awful glad you guys have been able to continue it because Evidently you're a much nicer looking man or something

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They don't hate you Okay, so this is really important last week

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There was a well -known LDS blogger and a writer she actually just published a book it's in desert bookstores across the country

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She started watching some of our live streams and some of our videos. Yeah, she came to Christ I've been in conversation with her so Mormons are watching and so it'd be good.

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I think to communicate to them Why it's important for us to be out here. Why did why do we come out here to talk to them because they're

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Christian, too They believe in Jesus. There's the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints right so why why such an aggressive?

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You know form of evangelism. Why not just you know have a barbecue why show up at their place of worship Well, I'm not sure

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I'd call this an act of worship but obviously the whole reason that we've been out here for all these years the reason any of us here is because we need to know the true

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Jesus and unfortunately As I was just having conversations with people about this very subject

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The Jesus the God of Scripture the Jesus of Scripture the gospel of Scripture is fundamentally different than the

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God Jesus and message of The LDS Church and so as a as a result

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There's a There's a need and unfortunately, there's a lot a lot of conversation

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Going on between Christians and Mormons these days. The fact is that the Bible warns us against Idolatry, right?

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It warns us against false. Jesus's it works against a false gospel and When you compare what the

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Bible teaches with what Mormonism teaches on who God is who Christ is what the gospel is

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Those are things we always focused on upon it You know, we'd address other things we'd address issues like the first vision or the

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Book of Mormon things like that But they are always meant to just be avenues to get back to those key issues.

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That's right Yeah, who is God who is Christ? What is salvation and for the Mormons in the audience might be might be attending might be listening to this a later point in time

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The biblical God is a creator of all things in Jeremiah chapter 10 God told his people

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Tell the people the gods that did not create the heavens and the earth will perish from under the heavens and from the earth

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The Mormon God did not create ex nihilo. He can only organize pre -existing matter

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The Bible tells you that that God will someday pass away because he's not the true God and that's the foundation of everything else

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Jesus the Jesus could be presented here. It's not the Jesus the scriptures because he did not create all things The gospel is not that men could become

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God's but God became a man the person of Jesus Christ These are all massively important issues and it's wonderful.

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We get the opportunity to actually address these things with folks But it was a lot easier back when you were young and I was younger

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Yeah to get more than folks to stop and talk. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, they would surround you circles

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Conversations the whole nine yards teenagers knowing their theology and Taking you to task going to the scriptures wanted to argue with you

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That was actually refreshing for them to say you don't know God. You're not part of the true church now.

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It's very very different Okay, so here's something people say and they may be even saying in the live stream right now at this pageant

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This is the King James portrayal of Jesus, right? So we're just walking through scenes of the

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Bible Seminy garden Gethsemane is not quite the same right as unless they've changed that since the last time

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I was out here Well, they have been filling in there's a point where they were just me. We're just kind of reading straight through now They've started inserting more and more narration where they're saying and this is why people need to be baptized

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You know those sorts of things so but okay, so answer that if you would somebody says, but this is just Jesus He's dying on a cross.

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He's rising from the dead. Why are you opposed to that message? It's it's an incomplete message and it's and it's a deceptive message

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Okay, because it's it if it is trying to build upon the idea that people already understand what these things are

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But they don't realize the actual message of Mormonism They don't actually recognize Mormon Church claims to have the only priesthood only their baptism is valid That their

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Jesus is a very different Jesus and the Christians if they're if they're playing on what we already know

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Without giving the specifics. I find that deceptive, right? I think you need to be I they used to be up front right back and back in the olden days the first time

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I Saw this there was stuff about Adam and the Melchizedek priesthood and exaltation to godhood and and it was

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Mormon, right? As in Brigham Young Mormon, yeah, I was in beard Mormon and you said people actually you you would catch people walking away

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Before right was it was people like leaving because they were shocked by it in terms of well No, I heard somebody tell me it seemed like people were like this is not no

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I never had anybody come up to me at that but you Back, then it was primarily for the

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Mormons. Yeah, so it was very Mormon, right? Now it's meant to you know, you'll hear

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Christian hymns being sung. I heard Holy Holy Holy ones Yeah, yeah, and it's like that is that is blessed

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Trinity. You talk about a cultural appropriation. That's religious That's awesome

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All right, so it would be good we talk about that like the right

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God the right gospel Yeah, if you have the wrong God the wrong gospel, you're wrong enough to lose your soul

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You don't have the right God to worship. You don't have the right means to God So what's that? What's the big issue with Mormons in terms of the gospel?

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And this is again for those Latter -day Saints that are watching this right now and say what is the difference we believe in grace?

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You must be saved by grace. So after all you can do after all you can do so talk about that Cuz that's an important distinction people have to understand.

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No, no, Joseph Smith had no concept of what the biblical gospel was He even added to the

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Joseph Smith translation when describing God in the Bible God's described as a God who justifies the ungodly

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Yeah, I faith because of what Christ has done by grace He justifies the ungodly Joseph Smith changed that and says does not justify the ungodly

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Started the word not because he could not begin to conceive and understand right of the true nature of grace

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Yes Mormonism does not understand that man is dead in his sin that man is a rebel sinner man

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Mormonism views views man as as this individual who is who is Generally good.

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I mean Adams fall for example is a fall upward in Mormonism, right? That is not the biblical teaching by any stretch of the imagination.

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That's not why Jesus Christ came to die He didn't come to die to just simply make it possible that we can be freed from Adam's sin and be responsible for our own

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Salvation as the Grand Richard said in a marvelous work in wonder. Yeah Totally different message and a totally different goal.

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We're not being saved to become God's We are being saved to be human beings who are now united with Christ and are

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Functioning the way that God would have us to function that is we are glorifying him. We will never cease to be creatures and Unfortunately in Mormonism since there is just a there's just a spectrum

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There's a there's a you've got God men and angels different levels of exaltation No, these are totally separate categories of being in the biblical revelation

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So everything's different even though we use many of the same words the whole goal and the whole essence of it's really there

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That's right. So from a Christian perspective The the main thing the big thing is in terms of salvation peace with God now

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Complete forgiveness of sins a right saying before God clothed in his righteousness so that I have peace with God there really isn't a

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Consistent and defined doctrine of justification in Mormonism, right? That's a difficult thing. It's very hard I mean you you'll read one

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General Authority another General Authority. They're all over the map Oh, yeah, and yet it's the central message of Of Paul's epistle to the

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Romans Yes, but it's very clear that the Joseph Smith did not understand the message of Paul's epistle to the

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Romans on many many levels Yeah, so Mormons will often talk to Christians about there's a general resurrection

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We're all raised in and then there's these three levels of heaven and there's exaltation so for that for the

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Latter -day Saint they say we're saved by grace after all we can do and you must be obedient to laws and ordinances of the gospel and so for them for the

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Latter -day Saint the goal is in terms of salvation ultimate exaltation and it is

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Becoming a God and goddess of your own planet what happened to the God of this world and that's the goal, right?

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So in terms of when we're speaking to a Mormon when we say salvation, we're thinking peace with God Today repentance and faith union with Christ his righteousness credited to us as a gift.

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Our sin has been given to him exhausted Completely God's wrath

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Exhausted and God has God really can have wrath because he was never a man lived under the plant had to go through this process

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That's right. That's another important aspect of it, right and at just that point that's important. It's fascinating Joseph can't

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Understand how can you say that God justifies the ungodly that's got to come out because from any human perspective

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I mean God says it himself. He says the one who declares the wicked righteous is an abomination

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If you how does God do it exactly if you don't understand that the free gift of God in Jesus Christ You understand that the

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Son himself gives himself You don't understand that that this is God giving himself upon Calvary's tree if you don't understand all of that Since you don't have a finished sacrifice starts in the garden

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There's no true union with Christ There's there's no wrath of God being fulfilled all the rest if you don't understand any of that then you're not gonna understand how

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God Justifies the ungodly while maintaining his own holiness. That's right because your God isn't actually holy.

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Anyways, that's right Self is redeemed. That's right. He's still growing in knowledge. Well, there's according to I know early

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Mormon prophets and apostles Exactly. Yes and others since then not so much. That's right, right So and here's the point is if you don't have a biblical doctrine of sin

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You can't have a biblical doctrine of grace and Mormons don't have a biblical doctrine of sin. Just how radical our

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Our our corruption is exactly and I was talking to a Latter -day

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Saint last week holding a sign drove here from Washington To come and talk to us.

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He actually said near the end of our conversation He said that he had no sin that day.

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Oh, he had not sinned at all And and I thought to myself this is

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I said to him I said I think that you really don't understand the holiness of God No and his law if you can

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Exactly, yeah, if you think you love God perfectly today with your heart soul mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself

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As a matter of fact, you just did sin because you lied So So if there's a

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Latter -day Saint watching this right now, what do you want to communicate to them? What is the essence of the gospel message why we're here?

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I was just taught to explain to a Latter -day Saint the fact that I said, you know When I met with my first two more missionaries in 1982 elders

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Reed and Reese When we met twice on a Monday and a Thursday at the end of that last meeting

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I didn't know all the things I know now about Mormonism but I knew that what we believed was

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Fundamentally contradictory and different and I said to them, you know Someday, you're gonna need to know a

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God the God that does not change your God has changed. He may change tomorrow

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The very way that you have peace with him may change it's changed in Mormonism Mm -hmm. You once had to engage in polygamy now, you don't who knows what's gonna happen in the future

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Supreme Court decision. Yeah You have a God who has changed and who can change again

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Someday, you're gonna need to know the God who does not change and when that happens I hope that you'll remember me or the

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God will bring you into contact with someone else like me who will proclaim to you The true God who says before me there is no

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God formed there have been enough to me before the mountains brought forth There ever that's formed the earth in the world even from everlasting to everlasting thou art gone

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That's the only true God. Yeah, if your God did not create everything if your God became a god He's not

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God. Yeah, he doesn't exist. He can't save you The God who sent his son

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Jesus Christ into this world is the only one that can bring you salvation And that's not the God of Joseph Smith. And so if a

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Mormon says to us when they hear that message, okay I see that this is not the biblical Jesus. I see that this is definitely not the biblical

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God What must I do to be saved? What's the what's the message? Do I do? I need to now find the right church

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Do I need to make sure I'm linked up with the right type of Christian you certainly need to find well, obviously the other thing that needs to be referenced which we haven't talked about too much and that is the fact that there is only one divine revelation from God, yes, there are not many and The revelation that has stood the test of time is called the

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Bible not the Book of Mormon .com is for a great price And when you know, I remember a former more a missionary that I talked to you once He said, you know, once I became a

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Christian I started looking at the my Bible that I carried when I was a missionary and I had all this stuff marked in it

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But all the stuff that actually talked about what it really means to know God and the truth It's like I had never seen it

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So what you need is you need the Word of God and yes, you do need a good solid grounded church and good solid grounded

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Christian reform Baptist Well, that's that's one group I've got I know some really strong OPC folks that's right like you're doing their thing and and But but the important thing is to find a church where the

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Word of God is honored honored as the Word of God where it's the center of the message and the center of what defines the

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Christian faith and You need to bow the knee to the true and living Jesus Christ cast yourself completely upon him

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Holding on to nothing else. Yes, if you're holding on to anything else trusting in any of your own goodness or anything else

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No, it is either all gonna be that true Jesus Christ or nothing at all So are you saying that it's not a matter of certain steps?

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I need to take right now I need to work my way to understanding enough about this biblical Jesus like tonight

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How do I have peace with God is it do I need to yourself completely and totally upon him say

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I you are my maker my creator I Recognize that I am sinful in your sight.

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There is nothing I can do. You are truly God. I am truly man I want to believe the gospel as it's revealed in your scriptures

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Embrace him now and then begin looking for that that church because I realize sometimes that can be that can be a process

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Don't hold off your peace with God while you're trying to find Something it may be difficult in our modern day to be able to locate.