The Fire of Hell and the Fire of Love — Zac Poonen

The Two Fires: Hell and Love

Think about this verse in Revelation chapter 3, which we've been thinking about since yesterday. Because you are lukewarm, verse 16, I will spit you out of my mouth. And verse 15, I wish you were cold or hot.

Now in those days when the Bible was written, there was only one way to produce heat and that was with a fire. Today we have electricity to heat, but in those days it was only fire. So when we think of fire to make us hot, see fire can burn up many things and fire is what purifies gold, there is no way to purify gold without fire.

So there are two types of fire that the Bible speaks about. One is the fire of hell, the Bible speaks of a lake of fire. So when we talk about purification, it is purification from sin. To be fervent and heat means we have been purified from sin.

Not completely, that will happen only when Christ comes, but from known sin. You know if you put a cube of ice in a glass of juice or something, 90 of that ice is under the surface, only 10 is on top.

You see that when you put an ice cube in a glass, most of it is hidden underneath, only 10 of that ice cube you can see on top. That's a picture of our life. You can see only 10 of the sins in your life.

Same with me, same with everybody. With everyone it's like that. So that which we can see is what we call conscious sin. And what we cannot see is unconscious sin. Just like that cube of ice, you cannot see what is under the surface of that grape juice or something.

But if you take a knife and slice off that top 10%, what will happen to the cube of ice? All you intelligent people, what is the answer? A little bit will come up which is under the surface. Ice cube will become a little smaller and you will see a little more which is under the surface.

That is how if you deal with the sin that you can see in your life and get rid of it, you will see something of unconscious sin in your life. And then you slice off that 10%, some more will come up. And the ice cube becomes smaller and smaller and smaller.

That is how God makes us holier and holier and holier. But always there will be something underneath. But it should become less and less and less and less. So the fire of God is meant to help us to get rid of sin from our life.

That fire is the Holy Spirit. You can't get rid of it without the power of the Holy Spirit. So Paul speaks about conscious sin and unconscious sin in 1 Corinthians 3, 1 Corinthians 4. He is very clear.

1 Corinthians 4, verse 4. I am conscious of nothing against myself. What does that mean? That means my entire conscious area I have sliced off. What I know to be sin, I have got rid of in my life. See when we first get converted, what we know to be sin is a very small thing.

When we think dirty movies are sin, getting drunk is a sin, ruining our lungs with smoking is a sin. It is not the cigarette that is sin, it is destroying this body that is a sin. It is not the alcohol that is sin, it is destroying the body with that drunkenness that is a sin.

See just like some people call a building the house of God. So if you destroy that building with an axe or a hammer, nobody will do that. But the real house of God is this body. Not this building. God doesn't dwell here.

God dwells in this house. And anything, you know if you have a habit in your life by which you are destroying this body, by drinking or smoking or the mind, by pornography or dirty movies or reading dirty stories, that is also destroying the mind.

That is like somebody coming here with a hammer and breaking down this building. It is like that. It is destroying the house of God. So that is why we must get rid of habits that destroy the house of God.

It is like drinking, smoking or pornography, same thing. That is all destroying the house of God. So those are conscious sins. But then when we get rid of that, we think we have become holy. But then God shows us something underneath.

And more subtle sins like pride and selfishness. So Paul says I am not conscious of anything against myself. That doesn't mean I am acquitted. No. Because the Lord examines me and he sees some things which I don't see.

So in verse 4 he talks of two types of sins. One which I can see which I get rid of. But then there is so much else which God can see so I am not really free from guilt. But God will show me that little by little.

And I can get rid of it as I see it. I cannot get rid of it before I see it. Let me use another example. Our self life is like an onion. There are many many layers of selfishness and pride. You peel off one layer, there is another layer underneath.

You know how an onion is. You take off one layer, there is another underneath. So you see some selfishness in your life or some pride. You get rid of it. Oh you haven't finished with it. There is another layer of selfishness and pride underneath that.

But you never see that till you peel off the first layer. So if you don't deal with the selfishness and pride you see in your life now, you will never see all the many many layers of selfishness and pride hidden underneath that.

So spiritual growth is this onion getting thinner and thinner and thinner. So to use another example from the Bible itself. When the children of Israel were delivered from Egypt by putting the blood on the door, that's a picture of our initial forgiveness of sin.

That is the picture of the blood of Christ by which our sins are forgiven. And they went into the Red Sea and came out is a picture of water baptism. And when the cloud came down from above is a picture of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Following the Holy Spirit’s Leading

And what was the purpose of that cloud? It wasn't just to give them a nice experience. That cloud at night it became a pillar of fire. Daytime it is a pillar of cloud which rested on the tabernacle. In the night it was like a fire, a pillar.

And sometimes they traveled at night. And this pillar of fire will go in front of them and that's how the Israelites walked behind it. That's a picture of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it would stay for one month.

Sometimes after one day it will move. The Lord was teaching us from there you must listen to the leading of the Holy Spirit in your life every day. Sometimes there is nothing special the Lord tells us for one whole month.

But then sometimes every day the Lord says something. So we must follow that. If those Israelites had not followed the pillar of cloud and fire, they will get lost in that wilderness. The cloud and fire has moved on.

And here one Israelite decides to stay here. And after one week he says okay now I will follow. He doesn't know where that pillar of cloud has gone. Then he has to go searching for it. That is why they had to follow the pillar of cloud and fire immediately.

Otherwise they will get lost. That is a warning to us that if you don't follow the leading of the Holy Spirit immediately, you can wander in your spiritual life. I have seen many Christians like that.

They are wandering. That's because they don't listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. For example the Holy Spirit says go and ask forgiveness from that person whom you hurt. And you say I will think about it.

And you think about it for one week, one month. And you say okay now I will do it. Good. But then you have to wonder now where is the pillar of cloud? Where has it gone? One month ago he told me to do something and it moved on.

Now I don't know where it is. And you keep on living like that, your whole Christian life will be one of wandering. That is how some people never progress in their Christian life. Jesus taught us to pray, thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven.

We mustn't just repeat that prayer, we must meditate. Say how do the angels do God's will in heaven? I am supposed to do it like that. See the Lord told the angel Gabriel, go down to Nazareth and tell Mary she is going to have a baby.

Okay, he hears it. And he says I am a bit busy now, I will go next month. What do you think would have happened? Can you guess? I know. Gabriel would have joined the devil and become a demon. And God would have sent another angel to go and tell Mary that.

See God's work is not going to be hindered just because you disobey. You will miss the privilege. God will find somebody else. When God told Abraham, leave Ur of the Chaldees and follow me, you are going to be the father of the whole nation of Israel.

He didn't know that in the beginning. But God only showed him one step at a time. Tested him, will you follow me? He said no Lord, I want to be here only, I want to stay in Ur of the Chaldees. What would God have said?

Okay, okay, stay there, I won't trouble you. He would have called somebody else, whatever his name was. You would never have heard of Abraham in your life. The father of the nation of Israel would have been somebody else.

You can miss what God has for you if you don't obey when he tells you to do something. See, God has a plan for your life. He will show you step by step by step. And for 5 or 10 years you don't obey, you may not be able to fulfill it later on.

See, God called me to leave my job when I was, I left it when I was 26 years old. When I was 24, he called me and I put in my resignation. But just like the Egyptians would not let the Israelites go, the navy would not let me go.

But finally after 2 years they let me go. That delay was not because of me. I obeyed immediately. That delay was part of God's plan to train me some more. But if I had disobeyed, said, No Lord, I don't want to go out in this life of faith where I don't know where my money will come from and I may not be able to get married.

Then God would not force me. He would have left me in the navy. He would not have forsaken me. No. I would still be his child. But I would not have got God's best plan for my life. I would have gone to God's second best or third best.

I believe there are many people like that. I heard of a man who, when he was a young man in America, God called him to be a missionary. He said, No, I can't live that life. God said, Okay. And he was working somewhere else in some other job for a number of years.

One day his little child fell down from a chair and died. Then he woke up and he said, Lord, what do you want me to do? I missed your best plan for my life some years ago. At least show me your second best.

I can do it now. It's a very serious thing when you don't obey God immediately. When the pillar of fire is moving and you say, No, no, no, I am not ready. I want to stay here for one more month. How will you look for the pillar of cloud and fire after that?

God’s Long-Suffering and the Warning of Noah

God is very merciful. Sometimes he permits you to delay, delay, delay, delay, delay and you still don't miss God's best. God is very merciful. See, in the days of Noah, God told the people to repent. And then he told them, in Genesis chapter 6, he told Noah that, I am giving the world a hundred and twenty years.

Verse 3, the last part. Hundred and twenty years. But the people did not know that. That's what he told Noah. Oh, we don't even know whether he told Noah or whether God just said that to himself. Because it only says there, the Lord said.

Doesn't say he said it to Noah. But he determined in his mind. Maybe even Noah did not know it. But God determined in his mind. I am going to ask these people to repent. I will give them hundred and twenty years.

If they don't repent, I will destroy the world by a flood. Because, verse 3, my spirit will not strive with man forever. Please remember that. When the Holy Spirit speaks to you, he is not going to speak to you forever.

There is a time limit. Today it won't be hundred and twenty years because we don't live that long. Those days they lived up to nine hundred years. So, hundred and twenty years is like eight or ten years today.

Because today we live only up to seventy or eighty. So, it's like eight or ten years today. And the Lord is saying, I won't strive with this person forever. I have been keeping on telling him to give up some sin in his life.

But he is still playing the fool with it. Okay, I will bear with him. I will give him eight years, nine years, ten years and then finished. My spirit will not strive with man forever. So, don't take advantage of God's long suffering.

Just because you have disobeyed, disobeyed, disobeyed for six, seven years and nothing has happened in your life. I am not talking about full time work or anything like that. Don't think of that level.

I am talking about sin. Is there some sin in your life, God has been speaking to you for six or seven years and you are just still playing the fool with it? You are not taking it seriously? Then to you I have to say in Jesus' name, thus said the Lord, my Holy Spirit will not strive with you forever.

There is a limit to it. That is the meaning of sinning against the Holy Spirit which can never be forgiven. That is not one action. It's an attitude. There are two types of sins, sins of action and sins of attitude.

See, telling a lie, that's a sin of action. Slapping a man, that's action. But jealousy, that's a sin of attitude. Bitterness is an attitude. Unforgiveness is an attitude. So, there are sins of action and sins of attitude.

The Unforgivable Sin and Resistance to the Holy Spirit

The sin against the Holy Spirit which Jesus said will never be forgiven, is a sin of an attitude against the Holy Spirit, not an action. That means, it's not just that you did it once and then you can never be forgiven.

No. There is no sin where you just do it once and God says, I'll never forgive you. But it's an attitude. See, Matthew chapter 12 and Matthew 12 verse 32, you speak a word against Jesus, it's forgiven.

But you speak against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven, now or in the future. So, to understand that, it's not just that I spoke one word. If you read the context of the Pharisees' attitude against the Holy Spirit, they saw Jesus doing miracle after miracle after miracle and they kept on having the attitude, no, this is not God, this is not God, this is not God.

No, this is the demon. He said, warn them, be careful. We can put it like this. Jesus is saying, there is a red line drawn in front of you and you are resisting, resisting the Holy Spirit. Okay, you are forgiven, forgiven, forgiven, forgiven, forgiven.

In Noah's day, that line was 120 years. They went and went and went and went. They crossed the line and the flood came. They were all destroyed. Now, today it's a much shorter time, as I said, where you resist, resist, resist, resist and every time you say no to the Holy Spirit, you are going closer and closer to that red line.

And you say, nothing has happened, nothing has happened, so many years, 5, 6 years have happened, nothing has happened to me. Then suddenly, one day, you cross the line. It's very dangerous. The Bible says in Hebrews 6, it is impossible to bring such a person to repentance.

It's quite a word there in Hebrews 6, that if a person has rejected, rejected, rejected, see Hebrews 6 verse 4. Hebrews 6 verse 4, here are people who are enlightened, verse 4, they tasted the heavenly gift, made particles of the Holy Spirit, tasted the word of God, tasted the powers of the age of come.

All these things, experienced, tasted, and then fall away. It's impossible to bring them to repentance. So, that means they crossed the line. Now, many people think, oh, have I crossed the line? Have I sinned against the Holy Spirit?

I get many emails like this. Brother Zach, I don't know whether I have crossed the line, whether I have sinned against the Holy Spirit. Can you tell me? I said, I can tell you. I don't know your life.

I don't even know who you are, writing this email to me. But I can tell you. Here it says, it's impossible for them to repent. So, ask yourself, do you have a desire today to turn from sin? Then you have not crossed the line.

That means you still have a desire to repent. When you cross the line, you will have no more desire to repent. It's the Holy Spirit who gives repentance. We can't produce repentance ourselves. We may think we have repented ourselves.

But see what it says in Acts of the Apostles. In Acts of the Apostles, we read, for chapter 11, verse 18, God has granted to these people the repentance that leads to life. Who gives that repentance? You may think you did it yourself.

No. Repentance is a gift of God. Let nobody think, I repented. That is as foolish as saying, I saved myself. I remember when God began to give me victory over sin. I used to say, I finally got victory over sin.

This sin or that sin. And the Lord said, don't say that. Don't say, you got victory over sin. Say, Jesus keeps me from falling. I'll say this, anywhere in the world it will fall down. But there is a life in me that keeps it from falling.

This cannot overcome gravity by itself. But I can keep it from falling. That is how Jesus gives us victory. Some of you are not getting victory because you are trying to stand by yourselves. Some of you are not getting victory because you are trying to stand by yourselves.

You can try for a hundred years and you will fall. Ask Jesus to keep you from falling into sin. That was a great revelation for me to discover that. I thought I had got it. No. The Lord said, I am keeping you from falling.

And if one day I become proud, ah, I have not fallen for such a long time. Next moment I will fall. Till the end of my life I have to say, Jesus keeps me from falling. So if God has helped you in some area, don't think you did it.

Even your repentance is God gave it to you. So if you have a desire for repentance, that means you have not sinned against the Holy Spirit. That's for sure. But don't take advantage of God's goodness.

Old Covenant Fear and Earthly Blessings

See, now you can stop sinning out of this fear that you may cross the red line. That's a good way to stay from sinning. Oh, I may cross the red line, I will go to hell. Is the fear of going to hell a good way to prevent people from sinning?

Yes. The fear of hell, fear of judgment, that is the old covenant way. The Lord told the Israelites, turn with me to Deuteronomy 28. In those days it was not the fear of hell, because there was no understanding of heaven and hell in the Old Testament.

Very important to understand, there was very little understanding of heaven and hell in the Old Testament. There was no understanding of God as a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit was not dwelling in people's hearts, they could not understand these things.

So the only way God could make people obey was by earthly blessings. So see Deuteronomy 28. If you are careful, verse 1, to obey all that I taught you, I will bless you in all these ways. And you read the whole thing, there is no mention, I will take you to heaven.

No mention, I will give you victory over sin. No, not at all. No heaven, no victory over sin. If you obey me, I will make you the top nation in the world, like America, super power. Israel will be the super power in the world.

Because that's what earthly people are looking for. And I will bless you. With what, Lord, victory over sin? No, no, no. I will bless you in your earthly work, in the city and in the country. I will bless your children.

I will bless all your cattle, because that's the way they earned money those days. And your food, your basket, verse 5. When you go out of your house, you will be blessed. When you come back to your house, you will be blessed, verse 6.

And all your enemies, the Assyrians, Syrians, Egyptians, they will all be defeated. They come to fight against you one way, verse 7, they will run away seven directions. And there will be God to command the blessing on your bonds.

In today's terms, that is like saying, God will bless your business, that you will become a millionaire and a billionaire. You will be a crorepati. That is the meaning of verse 8. And whatever you touch, you will be blessed.

Anything, any business you do, you will get money. And the Lord will keep you as a set-apart, holy means set-apart people for Himself. And all the people in the earth will see, oh, how God has blessed these people.

Blessed with what? Victory over sin? No, no, no. They are still losing their temper and arguing and fighting with their wives at home. That still continues. No, no, no. They don't have victory over anything.

But they abound, verse 11, in prosperity. And many children, that was a mark of God's blessing those days. Verse 11. And their fields, they were all farmers. The rain came and they prospered in their farms, verse 12.

And verse 13, they will be head of all the nations in the world. Read the whole thing. There is not even one spiritual blessing there. No victory over sin, no heaven. That is the Old Testament gospel.

That is being preached in many places today. Prosperity, prosperity, prosperity and healing and health and all that. But now, if you don't obey, verse 15, there is a big list of things all the way up to the end of that chapter.

Right up to verse 68. Fifty-four verses. But not one word about going to hell. That was not the threat in those days. What will happen? Verse 16, you will be cursed. Verse 17, cursed, cursed, cursed, cursed.

17, 18, 19. And verse 22, you will have consumption and fever and all types of sicknesses. And your enemies will defeat you, verse 25. And verse 27, in your body, you will get boils and tumors and madness and blindness, verse 28.

You will get engaged to a wife, verse 30, and somebody else will violate her. And verse 35, you will get boils in your knees and legs from which you cannot be healed. And your crops will be destroyed, verse 42.

You read the whole thing. I don't have time to read it. It was all earthly curses, earthly blessings. And so they feared God and said, we better obey God. Why did they obey God? To get earthly blessings.

Whenever you look for earthly blessings, you are under the old covenant. Anybody who preaches to you that God will give you earthly blessings, he is preaching Deuteronomy 28, not New Testament Gospel.

New Covenant Blessings and Self-Denial

You say, you mean we will not be blessed in an earthly way? Is that how it is in the New Covenant? No. See Matthew 6 .33. This is the blessing in the New Covenant. Seek God's kingdom first and His righteousness, not earthly prosperity and physical healing.

Instead of earthly prosperity, seek God's kingdom. Instead of physical healing, seek for righteousness in your life. What will you get? You will get God's kingdom. You will get His righteousness. And you will get all the earthly things that you need.

The church will not be the superpower in the world. No. But you will be free from worry. Verse 25, don't be worried about what you will eat and what you will drink and what dress you will have. That includes, how will my children eat and drink and where will they get clothes?

God will take care of you and He will take care of your children. If you seek His kingdom first, you will not be the richest person in the world and you will not even be the healthiest person in the world.

Your children will not be the richest people in the world and they will not be the healthiest in the world either. But they will be righteous and they will have God's kingdom and they will have enough health and money to live in this world.

That is the new covenant blessing. You know that too much money can ruin you? I have been a Christian for 58 years and I have seen something. Some of the most spoiled children in the world are the children of rich people.

They get everything on the table. They get everything they need because the parents have got such a lot of money. They can go for a holiday to any country in the world. They can spend the money for anything.

They can have expensive cars and everything. Just see how spiritual such people are. So don't look for wealth unless you want to spoil your children. And some people say, what can I do brother? I am having a good job and I am getting a good salary.

You mean my children will all be spoiled? My own sons asked me that question. When we brought up our four sons, we had to struggle for every rupee. Because my wife and I never went after money in our life.

I can stand before God and say, 58 years in my life I never went after money. So we never starved. We had three meals a day. We never had to sleep on the streets. God gave us enough but not plenty. So we had to be very careful with our children.

The younger boys had to wear the same dress that the older boys had. Even school uniform, what the older boys had, the younger boys will wear. That was good. They learned how to be careful with money.

We couldn't spend for them like all the rich people's children who came to school. And that was so good for them. So now my children say, brother, dad, we are not poor like you were. What shall we do?

I say you don't have to become poor in order to make your children spiritual. You didn't run after money. God blessed you with a good job and you earned some money. You don't have to give it up in order to make your children spiritual.

But teach your children to deny themselves. When they want something, say to them, there is no need for you to have that. You have already got more than enough. There is no need for you to get that. They want something and the father says no.

That is denying themselves. That is what makes a person spiritual. Not poverty. Poverty and spiritual means then all the beggars should be spiritual. They are poor but they are not spiritual. It is not poverty that makes a man spiritual.

It is not wealth that makes a person carnal. It is denying yourself that will make you spiritual. Jesus said if you want to follow me, become poor. No, he didn't say that. Jesus Christ said if you want to follow me, deny yourself.

So we don't preach in the church that you must become poor to be spiritual. I have to say today I am not poor. I was once upon a time. I do a little business to support myself and that has prospered. It is not because I went after money.

God blessed it. That's all I can say. But I don't have to say now I can't be spiritual because I got little more money than I had 40 years ago. No. I think I am more spiritually minded today than I was 40 years ago.

Even though I have more money today than I had 40 years ago, it's because I have denied myself more. So please remember we are all equal. You may be earning 10 ,000 rupees a month or 100 ,000 rupees a month.

That will not determine whether you are spiritual or carnal. What will determine is how much you deny yourself every day. When you are tempted to be angry, you say no. When you are tempted to lust, you say no.

When you are tempted to grumble, you say no. You think people who get 5 ,000 rupees a month don't grumble and complain? People who get 5 ,000 rupees also grumble and complain. They may be poor. Maybe they get 2 ,000 rupees a month.

You think they will become spiritual? No. If they grumble and complain, they will not be spiritual. There is another person who gets 100 ,000 rupees a month. But he denies himself, denies himself, he will be spiritual.

From Fear of Hell to Love for Jesus

It is by denying yourself that you become a follower of Jesus and spiritual. That's what I told my children and that's what I tell you. So the question is, is it right that the fire of hell will prevent me from sinning?

Yes. But that is the second best way. Jesus did not say, if you are afraid of hell, keep my commandments. That is a good way. But Jesus said in John 14, 15, if you love me, keep my commandments. If you don't want to go to hell, keep my commandments.

That is the second best way. The best way is, if you love me, keep my commandments. There are two fires. One is the fire of hell. That can keep you from sinning. There is another fire. The fire of a fervent love for Jesus Christ.

That fire also can keep you from sinning. So, in the beginning, you keep from sinning because of the fire of hell. That's good. We can say that is like school. Then you go to college, where you keep from sinning because of the fire of love for Jesus.

So, if you haven't gone to college, at least study in school. If you can't obey the commandments because you love Jesus fervently, at least obey the commandments out of the fear of the fire of hell. Jesus taught that.

See Matthew 5. In verse 22, if you are angry with your brother, you will be guilty before the court. And if you say something, that is in your heart. And then from that anger from your heart comes out in your mouth with a few words.

Then you will be guilty before the supreme court. And then some more comes out from your heart, some more evil things against your brother. Then you can go to hell. Your anger can send you to hell. So, Jesus was saying, at least the fire of hell should keep you from anger.

So, Jesus himself threatened people with hell if they get angry. So, I am not afraid to tell people, you go to hell. That's the second best way of keeping from anger. But the best way is, where I love Jesus so much, I don't want to get angry.

Then I have come to college. Otherwise I am in school. At least let the fire of hell keep me from getting angry. Ok. Jesus said, in verse 29, verse 28, if you lust after a woman, you are sinning. And so, if your right eye makes you lust, pull it out.

Otherwise, verse 29, you will be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you sin in a sexual way, cut it off. Otherwise, verse 30, you can go to hell. So, the Lord is saying, if you sin sexually, you can go to hell.

In your thoughts or with your hands. So, at least let the fear of hell keep you from dirty thoughts. That's not the best way. Second best way. But some believers need the second best way. Because they don't have the best way, which is, I love Jesus, so I never want to have dirty thoughts.

So, all of you can choose. You may start with the second best way, I am afraid of hell, so I don't want to have dirty thoughts. I don't want to go to hell, so I don't want to get angry. But God wants you to move on from there.

The fire of hell prevents you from sin. Good. Move on from there to the fire of love for Jesus Christ. Where I say, now, I can say this today. I want to stay from anger, not because God will punish me.