Blind to the Cross — Dennis Kinlaw

Jesus’ Identity and the Way of the Cross

But who do you say that I am?'. And Peter answered and said to him, You are the Christ.'. He charged them that they should tell no one about him, and he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

He spoke this word openly, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when he had turned around and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get behind me, Satan, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.

And when he had called the people to him, and his disciples also, he said to them, Whoever desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it.

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Orthodox Doctrine and the Reality of the Fall

One of the reasons, and I think, I hope it's the major reason, the significant reason why I count myself an Orthodox Christian is because of the fact Orthodox Christian truth, Orthodox Christian doctrine is a better explanation for human reality than any alternative that I can find.

It is not a position with which I began, but it is a position that I came to as I live. And the longer I live, the more committed I am to it as the best explanation of us, both as to how to describe us and as to how to find a way for us to become what we would like to be.

Now, at the heart of biblical doctrine and the heart of Christian orthodoxy is the doctrine of the fall. Mary spelled it out very briefly yesterday when she was explaining her point of view. And that is that in the beginning, a good God created a good universe and everything was good about it.

In the first chapter of Genesis, you get that. And in the second chapter, you get the picture of how God wants to come and walk with his creatures and be one among us and relate to us. And then in chapter three of Genesis, something went wrong.

And from that point on, the story is a dismal one. And it is remarkably like at any point in human history where you cut it, it's remarkably similar. So that today we have the same kind of tragic circumstances that you had.

You may not have had the technological advance in preceding ages, but oftentimes that advance in technology just enables us to exaggerate the evil that was there all along. Now, the churches always recognize this, though the church does not always admit it.

It's found in our hymnody, isn't it? Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. Because you see, the biblical teaching is that man now is blind and cannot see what's really right in front of his face.

I'm convinced that my greatest gift is for missing the obvious. And that it really takes a divine revelation for me to see what's right under my nose. And I noticed something else, that when I've seen what's right under my nose and incredibly clear, give me a little time and it'll go fuzzy on me again.

Now, I think that's what is being said. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. God had come and quickened him so that he could see. We sing as people who stand in the Methodist tradition and can it be that I should gain an interest in my Savior's blood?

Died he for me who caused his pain? We're the ones who caused him his pain, who caused his pain, who him to death pursued? Amazing love, how can it be that thou, my God, shouldst die for me? But do you remember the verse?

Charles Wesley’s Testimony of Bondage and Freedom

Long my imprisoned spirit lay. This is a testimony. This is not just poetry. This is a testimony from Charles Wesley. Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night. That's bondage and blindness.

Thine eye diffused a quickening ray. A ray of light broke into my blindness and my darkness that had quickening power about it. Thine eye diffused a quickening way. I woke the dungeon. See the image of slavery, of bondage again?

The dungeon flamed with light, blindness and bondage. My chains fell off. My heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed thee. Now I thought of what Steve was saying yesterday when he was offered marijuana the morning after his conversion or immediately after whatever it was when his roommate offered it to him.

And he started to reach for it. But as he reached out, something said, you're free. You don't have to do that anymore. Now that bondage to freedom. Now the scripture is clear. The theology of the church is clear.

Every major creed in the history of the church points it out. And our hymnody as we sing about it says that it's there. Now the scripture is loaded with it too. But oftentimes the places where it is clearest, we don't see it.

Again, a lot of people are like me. We have a genius for missing the obvious. But the greatest evidence of the universal fallenness of man or the fallenness of us who call ourselves human creatures is what we did with Jesus.

That when the best man that ever came along came along, we crucified him. I'll never forget hearing David Ben-Gurion speaking. And he spoke about Jesus. And he spoke about what a great Jew he was and the greatest of them.

He said it was Paul that fouled everything up. You see, from his point of view, Jesus didn't teach that he was the son of God. It was Paul who imposed that on Christianity. But here we recognize. You read the lives of the skeptics on Jesus.

Here is a man who enchants them all, whether it's Mahatma Gandhi. Here is a man who, in his goodness, enchants everybody. But you will remember what we did to him. Now, I've been sort of working my way through the Gospels with a little of this in mind.

The Light Rejected by the World

And I noticed at the beginning of the Gospel of John, he says, in him was life. And the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness did not comprehend it. That was the true light that gives light to every man that comes into the world.

He was in the world and the world was made through him. And the world did not know him. He came to his own, the very ones he created, the very ones he made. And they received him not. Now, there is the picture of us in our blindness, didn't know whom we were rejecting.

And in our dullness of heart, we did not know why or even that we were rejecting him. Now, I ran through the Gospel of John just looking at some of the high spots in connection with this. Let me run through just a few of them in the Gospel of John.

You remember the first thing he does after he's presented to Israel by John the Baptist, in the Gospel of John is he goes to a place called Cana after he's picked up a half a dozen disciples. And with his mother, his family, and these new friends of his, he gets to a wedding and the wine has run out.

So, he turns and takes some pots of water and speaks to them and then says to the head waiter, take some of that water and carry it to the governor of the feast. I've always been awed at the faith of the head waiter.

I really wonder if the head waiter didn't stare at him and say, wait a minute, beg your pardon, would you say that over again? You want me to lose my job? The amazing thing is I think it's the first act of faith outside of the disciples in the Gospel of Mark.

He carried it. I ran across a line the other day that's too good not to mention. One old fellow was writing about this miracle and he said, when the water recognized the presence of its own creator, it blushed and turned red.

I like that. But he turned the water into wine and when he did, the reputation of Jesus began to spread. He moved up into Capernaum according to the synoptics and he performed all sorts of miracles and in due time when the first Passover came, he headed for Jerusalem.

And when he went into the temple, the leaders of the temple already knew about him. And when he walked into the temple, you'll remember what he did. He cleaned house. And when he cleaned house, you know what the leaders of the temple said to him?

He just walked in as if he owned the place. Do you know that the temple was constructed to make you know your place and that you shouldn't get out of it? There was a line beyond which a Gentile couldn't go.

If he went, he went at threat to his life. There were stones placed all around that court that said any Gentile who goes closer to the center than this will promptly be stoned to death. There was a line beyond which a Jewish woman couldn't go without endangering her life.

There was a line beyond which a Jewish man couldn't go unless he was a Levite. There was a line beyond which a Levite couldn't go unless he was a priest. And there was a line beyond which a priest couldn't go unless he was a chief priest.

And that line could only be crossed once a year. The whole structure of the place was to let you know your place and you better stay in it. And Jesus walked in like he owned the joint. And a priest came to him and said, show us a sign that you have a right to do this.

You know, I suspect, though John didn't record it, he looked back at him and said, boys, that's what I just did. Now that gives you the atmosphere and the attitude for the rest of the book of John. You remember he healed a man on the Sabbath?

And the priest came to him and said, you broke the law. And Jesus said, the Sabbath was given for us, for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was for our healing. And I healed a man on the Sabbath and you want to kill me for breaking the law?

You will remember that he said, God's my father. And they said, no, you've got a demon in you. Isn't it interesting that when God came, the church said he was demon possessed. You will remember that they said, we don't believe in you because we're children and disciples of Moses.

And he said, he's the guy who first spoke about me. You will remember that the most ironical thing to me is that they took lanterns and torches out on Thursday night in the dark to find the light of the world.

That's the figure from which I never get away. We're the kind of people, our darkness is so deep that we need lanterns and torches to find the light of the world. And the conclusive proof of that is that when we got him on a cross, or before we got him to the cross, when we had an option between a murderer and a thief and Jesus, we took Barabbas.

Human Blindness and the Rejection of Jesus

Now you can say they did that. No, that's us. We'd have done the same thing. I'd have been in that crowd that took the Barabbas. Apart from grace, not an ounce of difference between any of us. Every one of us is as sinful as the next when it comes to that.

Our blindness is equal. Our hardness of heart is equal. Our imprisonment is equal. I just didn't have the same shackles that Steve's had. His is more dramatic than mine. But mine were just as real as his.

And the need for freedom was just as great as it was in Steve's when Christ came to him. Now, that is still true. And you say, we're educated and we're 20th century people. Well, we have had an interest in correspondence and conversations with a fellow who has been head of the Department of Psychology.

The graduate program in psychology at one of the major universities is now part of the world. Before he became head of that department, one of his closest friends was head of the department. And the head of the department was a very fine, upright person, kind and gracious, and was one of the experts in our part of the country on mental health.

One morning, my newfound friend came in and found out that his friend, who was head of the department, had committed suicide the night before. And then they called him in and said, Art, we want you to be head of the department in the place of your friend.

Well, I shook him up. So he said, the first year I was there as head of the department, he said, I made it my business to see if there was any way that we could pay tribute to my friend who had committed suicide.

So he talked the university into naming a new building that they were building after his friend. So when they came to dedicate that building, to open it, they had a dedication service and they asked him to put it together since he was head of the department.

And so he said, I put together a dedication service and had an invocation and a benediction. And when the people who were responsible found his proposed program, they called him in immediately and said, Art, don't you know that you can't have a prayer on the university campus?

He said, you can't have that invocation. And the only way you can have a benediction is to have nothing religious in it. Now, he said, I shouldn't have been shocked. But now hold on. He said, I came apart.

Theoretically, I'd heard this kind of thing. But suddenly it came crashing home to me that I was in an institution committed to the search for truth and it was against the law to talk to the author of it all.

Now, that guy last year published 18 scholarly journal articles, either himself or jointly, one of the most highly regarded scholars in the United States. And he said, you know, I decided I can't work in this kind of atmosphere.

He said, there is something hypocritical about it and I can't be a part of it anymore. Could I get a job at Asbury? We don't have a graduate program. Furthermore, he'd have to take at least a 40 percent cut in salary.

But you know, he's coming to teach for us January 1st. But here is, this is our society. Now, what clinched it for him is there's a course in the curriculum at that university in witchcraft. It's interesting how blind we are.

And usually the arguments that we use for shutting him out are really the arguments why we ought to accept him. We read the data the wrong way. That's how blind we are. But now, if that's true of the world, I want to talk about another kind of blindness.

Blindness in the Disciples

I found an interesting difference in the Gospel of Mark from the Gospel of John. Because the Gospel of John draws the line between the world and the kingdom. And that line is sharp and the world is in darkness.

And it is in deep darkness so that when Christ comes, the world says, this is not the way. All you've got to do to get a fight on your hand is get in the average educated group and say, the only way of salvation is Jesus.

And you've got a battle on your hand instantly, instantly. Now, that's the world. But you know what I find in the Gospel of Mark? I find blindness in the disciples. And it is an amazing picture which I missed through the years.

Now, we could spend several hours on this. So, I'm just going to have to sort of hit the high spot. See if you can stick with me as I follow through. It's interesting that the Gospel of Mark, the first half of it is to tell us who Jesus is.

Now, the way he tells us who Jesus is, is by stories. You see, he shows up in the audience of the best preacher, the Billy Graham of the day. And Billy Graham says, there he is. And the Pharisees said, we thought you were he.

And he said, no, that's he. I'm not worthy to loosen his shoes. So, the greatest voice in that day and the greatest prophetic voice in a half a millennium identified him. Then he picks up his disciples and he turns water into wine.

And when he gets to Capernaum, he begins to teach. And people say, we never heard a teacher like this. He's different. While he's teaching, you'll remember there's a demoniac in the crowd. And Jesus turns and sets the man free.

And Peter says to Andrew, let's take him home with us. And when they get home, Peter's mother-in-law is sick. And he lays his hands on her and she's freed from her fever. They send for all the neighbors and he heals all of the neighbors that are sick.

He walks out in the roadway and there is a leper. And he lays his hand on a leper and touches him. And the leper is cleansed. And there's a whole stream of these that takes place. He finds himself with a crowd of people.

And he takes five loaves and two fish and multiplies them and feeds 5 ,000 men, not to say anything about the women and children that are there. So you get all these stories to where finally the stories bump into each other.

And you get the story of the man who comes and says, I have a daughter that's at the point of death. Will you come heal her? And so he says, which way? And they start. And suddenly he stops and says, somebody touched me.

And Peter says, Lord, they're all over you. What do you mean somebody? No, he said, somebody touched me in faith. And there's a woman groveling at his feet. And she looks down at her and she says, I didn't want to stop.

You didn't even want to catch your attention. I felt if I could just touch the hem of your garment, I'd be free. And this woman was set free. And he goes and finds the child is dead. And he brings the child back to life.

Succession of these stories. Now, it's interesting that with these stories, there is either explicitly or implicitly in the mark, in the gospel of Mark, always a question. Sometimes it comes out explicitly in statements like, what kind of teacher is this?

We never heard a teacher like this. He's different from all the other teachers we have. Or when he delivers the demoniac, they say, what kind of power is this? We've never seen anybody with power like this.

To where finally, you will remember, they turn to him and says, what manner of man is this? Even the winds and the sea obey him. And you get all these questions in Mark. And everybody has an answer. And the only one that has the right answer is the devil.

Because twice in the first half of the gospel of Mark, the devil say, this is the son of God. Why do you trouble us? You're the son of God. You're the son of the holy one. You're the holy one. Why do you trouble us?

The only ones that know who he is, not his family, not the church, not the apostles, not anybody else. The only ones that know who he is are the representatives of the demonic world. After two and a half to three years, Jesus takes his disciples and carries them away north.

And when he gets there, he turns to him and says, who do people say I am? And they say, well, they got all sorts of answers. Some of them think you're John the Baptist. That's what Herod thinks. He thinks you John the Baptist come back.

Some of them think you're Elijah. Some of them think you're Jeremiah. And he said, who do you think I am? It's interesting. Peter says, we know who you are. You're the Christ. And Jesus says, you didn't catch on to that by natural reason.

What he's saying is your eyes were open. My father opened your eyes. And the difference between you and that crowd out there is my father opened your eyes. My father revealed this to you. Yes, I'm the Christ.

Now, immediately after Peter has said, we know who you are. You're the Christ. We found the secret of your person. Jesus begins to talk to him about the cross. And as he talks to them about the cross, Peter says, wait a minute, Lord, come here.

And he takes him to one side. It's interesting that one moment he says, you're the one we've waited for for 2000 years. And you're the eternal son of God. And the next thing he does is lecture him on theology.

And Peter says, rebuke Jesus and says, Master, don't talk this way. Don't talk this way. Now, that is a fascinating moment. They know the secret of his person. But they cannot conceive of his mission.

The Two-Stage Healing and Partial Spiritual Sight

Now, will you hold that? Let me give you the context in Mark for that. It's one of the most interesting things I've ever seen in scripture. Let me I won't go back and get the whole thing, but just let me get a succession.

Can I take you back to the seventh chapter? He's already fed the 5000 with five loaves and two fish. And he's done some other remarkable things. And then they find themselves with 4000 people and only seven loaves.

And so Jesus takes seven loaves and feeds 4000 people. If you will look at Mark 7, the first verse after the conclusion of the feeding of the 4000, the Pharisees turn to him and say, would you show us a sign?

You know, I never saw that until relatively recently. You get the pericope, the unit about the feeding of the 4000. The next one begins, the Pharisees said, would you show us a sign? As they leave the discussion with the Pharisees, Jesus says to his disciples, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.

And the disciples stick their heads together and says, is he concerned because we forgot to bring any bread? And Jesus says to them, don't you see? Don't you understand? And then they bring a blind man to him.

Now, catch this. It is the only miracle story in the Gospels where Jesus touch doesn't do the job. Jesus touches him and he says to the blind man, can you see? And he says, marvelous, I see many trees walking.

And Jesus touches him a second time and the man says, now I see all things clearly. And do you know what the next story is? Peter, who says, I see your personhood, you're the Christ, but I surely don't see this cross business.

Now, I don't know about you. I don't know about you. But I'm ready to say Mark was loading theology in between the stories and in between the lines. And you're not going to tell me that a book is skillfully put together as the Gospel of Mark, that Mark didn't know what he was doing when he set that story, those two stories right next to each other.

He said, I see some things. But I see many trees walking. Peter said, I see you're the Christ. The man says, but I see many, they're like trees walking. Peter said, Lord, don't talk to me about a cross.

The Cross as the Unacceptable Way of Redemption

Here's the gist of what I want to say this morning. I believe it is as hard for believers to see the cross as it is for the world to see the personhood of the Messiah. And the world's going to reject him as the one way.

And we reject his way of redemption. We say there's some other way beside the cross. Now, let me give you some more biblical data on that. Do you know what happened immediately after the confession at Caesarea Philippi?

That's the first time he talked to them openly about the cross. Read that passage, and it says he spoke openly, openly about the cross, but they didn't understand. And Peter rebukes him. Peter fights him.

They go up on the Mount of Transfiguration, and Peter, James, and John have an opportunity to hear a conversation between Moses and Elijah and Jesus. Now, it would seem to me that if I were with Jesus, and had lived with him for two and a half to three years, and suddenly I find two other guys here, and I find out one of them is Moses and the other one Elijah, I wouldn't have trouble accepting anything from that point on.

But Jesus says, as they start down the mountain, he says, now don't tell anybody until I rise from the dead. And Peter, James, and John, Peter nudges James and John, and they get off to one side and say, what's rising from the dead?

It sounds like a bunch of liberal modern preachers, doesn't it? What's rising from liberal modern laymen? What's rising from the dead? They cannot grasp it. They get to the foot of the hill, and there's a big crowd and a commotion, and a distraught father comes to Jesus and says, your disciples came through this country weeks ago, and they were delivering the demoniacs, healing the sick, doing all sorts of things, and my son has an evil spirit and is mute, and I was sure they could help him, and I brought my son to your disciples, and whatever power they had, they've lost.

Pretty good picture of the church, isn't it? And Jesus says, how long do I have to put up with you? Oh, short of faith, lacking in faith generation. Now remember, it's not the world he's having trouble putting up with at this point.

It's nine disciples. The best the world has to offer are what's wearying his righteous soul at this point. Now, it is after this that they head towards Jerusalem, and as they head towards Jerusalem, he takes his disciples aside, and in chapter 9, verses 31 to 33, he begins to tell them about the cross.

He says, I go to Jerusalem, there I will be arrested, there I will be beaten, there I will be crucified, but after three days I will rise. And you know what the text says? Mark says just simply, but they did not understand.

Do you know where I think Mark got his information? Do you know what one of the traditions of the church is? That Peter was his mentor, and that Mark was discipled by Peter. And I suspect that Mark got his information from disciples who said, you know, we look back now, and it's incredible, but we could not hear.

We could not hear. I dare you to sit down and read the first epistle of Peter. There's more about suffering in 1 Peter than there is in any other book in the New Testament, and there is a careful picture of Isaiah 53, the suffering servant, the dying Savior, the crucified Savior in 1 Peter.

You remember that the first thing Jesus did after the resurrection was he appeared on Sunday night, and the first thing he did was show them his hands and his side. I don't believe Peter ever got over that.

The Disciples’ Ambition and the Upside-Down Kingdom

But now, you see, on this side they cannot see it. So, as they keep going, you will remember that he immediately after he's talked to them about the cross and says, I'm going, and they don't understand, when they get to the end of the way that day after the lecture on the cross that day, Jesus turns to the disciples and said, after our conversation, I noticed you guys separated yourself and had a very intense conversation.

You got very animated. What were you talking about with such animation? Peter said, John, you tell him. And John says, Peter, you usually speak for yourself and us too. And Jesus said, neither one of you has to tell me.

I know what you were talking about. You were arguing as to who was going to have the first seat in my kingdom. Because, you see, their notion of the kingdom was this way. And everybody ought to work to get as high in the kingdom as he could.

And you see, the higher you get in the kingdom, the fewer there are up there. And Jesus said, I was telling you, my kingdom's this way. And the big thing to do is get to the bottom because there's where the power is.

You didn't hear what I said, did you? And so John says, well, that's interesting, Lord. But we did have one problem today we want to tell you about. We did good. He said, good. Tell me something you did good.

It's interesting. Between the confession at Caesarea Philippi and the arrival in Jerusalem, there's not a good word spoken about one of the disciples. There's not a single time one of them looks good.

And so John says, we did one good thing today. And Jesus said, what was it? Said, we found a fellow casting out devils in your name. And he's not one of us. We forbade him. And Jesus says, give me a little child.

He said, unless you become like a little child, you can't be a part of my kingdom. You don't understand this kind of the kingdom yet. And you will remember that it was after this, that the parents brought their children and said to the disciples and said, would you get him to lay his hands on the children and let him bless them?

And they said, he's too busy and in too big a business to bother about children. And he just got through talking about his kingdom is for children. And so he said, you bring the children to me. You remember, he said at one point, if you offend one of these little ones, better to have a millstone cast about your neck.

But the disciples couldn't understand that. Then Jesus, for the third time, gives them his talk about the cross. One of the most entrancing passages in the gospel, because Mark tells us that they were walking down the road toward Jerusalem and they were getting close to it.

And it says that the disciples were amazed and in great fear, but it doesn't tell us what they were amazed about or what the cause of the fear was. Do you know, I think there are moments when the veil between this world and the other one gets thin and you begin to sense the numinous.

That's the only way I know how to take that passage. And as they walk, he is talking to them about the cross. And they're saying, you know, they had no grasp. I can see Peter nudging Andy and said, there he goes again.

He's got this little ritual he has to go through. Don't know what it means, but let him do it. If it makes him feel better, let him make his speech. But this time there is that sense of the numinous. And it's not many days after this when he's hanging on a cross.

Physical Sight and Spiritual Blindness

It's interesting that the beginning of this section for me now is the guy that he had to touch twice for him to see clearly. And the end of the section is in outside of Jericho when he comes and hears Bartimaeus.

And the last thing in chapter 10 before the beginning of Jesus' entry into the city of Jerusalem is Bartimaeus. It didn't take but one touch for Jesus to give Bartimaeus perfect sight. He has infinitely less trouble with physical blindness than he does with spiritual blindness.

He can make Bartimaeus see in a moment, naturally. But he spent three and a half years and his disciples still haven't caught on to the way of the cross. Now, let me tell you, and our time's almost gone.

I'm going to keep you a minute or two longer. But you know what I'm convinced? I'm convinced that American evangelicalism is in chapters 9 and 10 of the Gospel of Mark. And I've never gotten out of them.

Because do you know what I hear as I move around the country and listen to evangelicals? If you ask what it means to be a Christian and why a person should be a Christian, say, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

And you need to believe on him because you're going to be lost if you don't believe on him and get saved. Now, let me ask you, how much self-interest is there in that? I figure about 100%. And the pitch is made that you need Christ because if you don't, you're in trouble.

You're lost. So that, you know, it's interesting. We say, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved. But you know what Jesus said? He looked at his disciples and said, follow me. And do you know there's a difference between the believing and getting your soul saved and following him?

They're willing to follow him to Caesarea Philippi, but they were not about to follow him to Calvary. It took the resurrection in Pentecost to get the believers to follow him to Calvary. And there's no Pentecost without the Calvary.

Following Christ Beyond Self-Interest

Now, I see that. Elsie and I see that. Well, you could illustrate that. We don't have time, but let me tell you one that gets to us. Why was the cross necessary? So a world could be redeemed. How far was God willing to go to redeem the world?

He never had but one son and he was willing to give him to die so a world could be redeemed. And that son came and said, will you follow me? Now, where was he headed? He was headed to the cross. Why was he going to a cross?

So the world could be redeemed. You know, we live with some of the best kids out of some of the best homes in the world. I'm sure that Asbury kids are like a lot of other kids. But from our point of view, I don't know where we could find a better group of young people to work with.

Do you know they represent the best homes in the United States? I don't mean financially. I mean, just on general rules, they represent homes like John and Ella Jo's. Now, where are you going to beat that?

Let me tell you, we sit with these students and listen to them. And what we try to figure out is what their ideals are, their ambitions, their values. And you know, you don't have to sit with them long until they know what their parents value.

You don't have to spend long with a teenager until you know what his mother and father want out for that kid. And you know, occasionally, Elsie and I will catch a kid and we'll say, let me ask you a question.