#112 What the Bible Actually Says About Abortion + Dr. William Lile, The Pro Life Doc

I'm going to ask the questions I'm afraid to ask. What about those situations where it seems impossible to have the child? Like, abortion is the only option.

If I had an ultrasound image here, tell me which baby was conceived and raped. Which of them didn't deserve to live?

But what about when that birth threatens the life of the mother?

If I can only save one life, I'm going to save that one life.

And that would be mom. If abortion is contrary to God's design, how should we feel about IVF? Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino, and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs, and scholarly theologians to make understanding God easier.

These conversations have transformed my relationship with Christ and understanding of religion. Now, I'm sharing these recorded conversations with you. On this podcast, we talk about the facts, the history, and the translations to make the Bible make sense so we can get to know God our creator better.

Hi, it's Cass. I wanted to first start off by saying thank you for listening. I created this because I could not find it anywhere else on the internet, and it takes a very small team and a large upfront investment to make it all possible.

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In exchange for the support, I personally promise to you to always create the highest quality production possible. Thank you so much for listening. Now, let's get to the show. Hello, hello. Welcome to Biblically Speaking.

I'm your host, Cassian Blino. Today, we're going to talk about abortion and what it would have looked like in the ancient world. Did first century Jews and ancient Israelites, did they practice abortion?

What did it look like? How did it work? How was it viewed by society at that time? Where in the Bible are we addressing it directly, if we even do? Then we're going to modernize it with today. How should Christians think through abortion?

How do they talk about rape, incest, life-threatening pregnancies, IVF? We're going to talk about it. Today, we're going to go over abortion in the ancient world, what scripture says about abortion, the abortion questions we're afraid to ask, I'm definitely afraid to ask, the right to choose, Christianity, spiritual battles about abortion, and grace after abortion.

My guest today is Dr. William Lyle, known as the Pro-Life Doc. You're a board certified OBGYN. You're a former chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. You're the founder of the Pro-Life Doc Ministry, and you have decades of clinical experience delivering babies.

I think you just said you delivered 5 ,000 babies before you retired, and now you're doing ministry full-time. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for joining. Well, it's an honor to be on with you and your platform, Cass, and hopefully we'll bring some new tools to your listeners on how they can not just say that they are pro-life, but they can articulate why they are pro-life, not only from a science and medical basis, but from a scriptural, biblical basis.

And that's exactly what we try to do. I think that for a lot of Christians, we don't grow because we're afraid to ask certain questions, and I'm not going to lie, I'm afraid to ask some of these. So I'm so grateful that you're here.

Abortion Methods and Practices in the Ancient World

Jumping right into it, is abortion a modern issue, or did the biblical world—we're going to start in the past—. What did they think about abortion?

What did they know? How did it work? For thousands of years, there has been murder. There has been rape, incest, and all sorts of crimes against humanity. I mean, we're human, and we're fallible, and we're sinners.

But abortion itself has also been around for thousands of years, and there were several different ways that abortion was performed thousands of years ago. There were chemicals that would actually cause contractions of the uterus, that would actually squeeze a baby out.

They would sometimes even use mechanical things where they would squeeze the uterus to squeeze that baby out. And then there were even primitive surgical methods where they would, just like a modern DNC, they would actually use instruments to kill a baby in the inside, and then extract that baby and remove that baby out of an attack on this baby in the womb.

So it's not a new thing. It's become much more convenient. We now have the abortion pill, which is responsible for over 70 of all the abortions in the United States. It's available mail order in all 50 states.

It's crossing state lines, despite laws that try to prevent it from crossing state lines. But abortion and this attack on the babies in the womb is nothing new. It's been around for thousands of years.

Jewish, Roman, and Early Christian Views of Abortion

And how was it viewed? Was it viewed similarly to how it's almost like, I mean, obviously it's a public stigma. So was it the same or was it honorable? Was it normal?

It really depends on the culture. I mean, culture is a reflection of what they do and what they legalize as far as what their values are. And you can see even in early Judaism that abortion was condemned.

We looked at first Enoch. It's not part of the canon, but we look at historic writings to get an idea of what was going on in that culture. And first Enoch, it says that an evil angel taught humans how to smash the embryo in the womb.

I mean, that is the definition of abortion. And then even the historian Josephus in the first century AD, he wrote that the law orders all of the offspring to be brought up, I mean, to be raised. And it forbids women to either cause an abortion or to kill the fetus.

Well, that's what the ancient Jews taught. And that was part of their history. But you look during that same time, it's like, well, how did the Romans view abortion? How did they view life in the womb?

And you look at Cicero. He said, the deformed infants shall be killed. If you weren't perfect, that's part of the Greek and Roman history. If you didn't have a perfect baby, just kill it there. Then you look at Plutarch.

He said that there were people who offered up their own children as a sacrifice. Then there were those who didn't have children, who could buy children from other people and offer them as sacrifices. But then you look at the early Christian church, and the early Christian church was actually taking in children who were not, quote unquote, wanted and were not perfect.

You look at the Didache. The Didache says, thou shalt not murder a child by abortion or kill them after they were born. And then you can even look at the Christian text of the letter to Barnabas. And what did it say?

It's not part of the canon of scripture, but it's a historical document which says, you shall not abort a child nor again commit fetusicide, killing a baby after it's born. So abortion has been around, but our nation was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic.

So you can see from the Judeo aspect, life was precious. Children were to be treasured. From the Christian aspect, they also, from the very earliest Christians, the followers of Christ, they cherished that life within the womb.

But then there were segments of the population in the Greek and Roman empire who absolutely, if it wasn't perfect, and if you just didn't want it, or you wanted to sacrifice that child, they said, we don't value them.

They're just like a dog, and they did not have value. So we're in the same battle now.

Thanks for painting that picture. I wasn't aware that there were so many ancient texts that addressed abortion so directly, especially from the Christian standpoint.

Yeah, I mean, we see that throughout history, and history, his story, is something that we should be looking at to see what the standards were and to see how we can improve. I mean, we're trying to reflect the kingdom of God and biblical worldview.

We know when we study the different research that's been done out of Arizona Christian University, that all adults have a worldview. And the biblical worldview, of course, is trending down. The secular worldview is, of course, trending up.

But we also know that your worldview is going to be involved in every decision that you make as an adult. But with 90 sensitivity and specificity, the biblical worldview or the secular worldview that you have as an adult will be the same worldview that you had before you turned age 13.

Teaching Children a Biblical Worldview of Life

So when it comes to teaching our kids about abortion, about life in the womb, about what it means to be creating the image of God, if we're waiting until they're in high school or even in college, they're way past 13, we need to really be working on the younger kids in an age-appropriate manner.

You're in Hawaii. We recently spoke at Pearl Harbor Christian Academy, and we wanted to instill a biblical worldview on life within the womb. Yes, we brought a great presentation to the high schoolers and even to the middle schoolers, but for the first time ever, I had my scariest audience ever.

They asked me to present to the pre-K through the third graders. Did we discuss abortion directly? No. We showed a pregnant woman with an obviously pregnant belly on the beaches there in Oahu, and we asked, is her belly big because she eats too much ice cream?

They're like, no. I said, why is her belly so big? She has a baby. And then we showed them 2D, 3D, 4D ultrasound. We showed them MRIs of babies in the womb. We showed them fetoscopy. We're actually putting cameras in the womb to operate and cure these babies before they're born.

So we need to expose and train our kids in a young age, because if they're going down the highway in the wrong direction and they turn 13, we've got to stop that wrong progress, turn them around and get them to go the other way.

So train up a child in the way you should go.

I think that's great. Yeah, I'm going to bring it right back to the history because I want to get to the modern version. I want to get to that modern perspective on abortion and how we kind of, you know, phrase it with grace and how do we view it.

But when we understand the context of how we got here, and I think you did a really great job of just kind of describing that Judaism and Christianity, they were taking in those children, even, and they had scripture that basically, you know, said not to have abortion.

It's so interesting as a, you know, Sunday school Christian, because you read the Old Testament and it feels like those kings are constantly killing babies. You know, even at Jesus's death, they're trying to kill all the children under two.

You look at Moses and they are just flinging children. You know, it just, it seems like it was normalized. It seemed like it was okay. And so you look back on it two years ago and you're like, well, they justified it.

It's in the Bible, so we can justify it today. But I mean, you just shed light on so many things I didn't know. I'd love to spend some time. What does the scripture say? And you've already talked about a couple non-canonical scriptures, things that weren't in the Bible or aren't in the Bible.

But I know that there is a broader theology that the Bible discusses in a couple of the canonical books. Which ones of those do you like to focus on most when you understand the scriptural basis?

Biblical Passages on Life in the Womb

Well, there are great examples in both the New and the Old Testament. And people will say, well, there's, I don't see a verse that says specifically thou shalt not perform abortion. It's not there. Well, it is there.

All the answers to all of our problems in life are in the original search engine, which is scripture. We just have to spend the time and find those answers that are in the scripture. So you start with Genesis 1, 26, where God's already made the entire universe, 2 trillion galaxies, 500 billion galaxies in each of those galaxies as far as stars.

And then we see the earth. But then after all the mammals and the birds and the fish were created, God said, hey, we're missing something here. And it says in Genesis 1, 26, let us make man in our image.

I mean, we were created to reflect that image of God and we're not created in the image of God on our birthdays. And I've delivered 5 ,000 babies and I can usually choose when we're gonna induce, when we're gonna do a C-section.

I don't have the power to create the image of God. We're genetically unique and created in the image of God at that moment of conception, where one egg, one sperm get together. And genetically from that first cell, that baby is genetically unique from mom, dad, and the 8 billion people on the planet.

And then you can just jump to the New Testament. It's like, well, what's the value of a baby in the womb? Well, who's the savior of the world? How did God choose for Jesus, our Lord and savior to come into the world?

I mean, he didn't choose for Jesus to, you know, wander in out of the wilderness at 30 years of age and then begin his ministry. No, he had a better way. Jesus, our savior came into the world as an embryo there right inside of the womb of Mary.

And there he gestated. His heart was beating 22 days after conception. You know, at 10 weeks, he was 1 billion cells. And then we even look at Luke 1 and 2, where Mary lived 70, 80 miles away from Elizabeth.

And Mary was about three months pregnant with Jesus. And Elizabeth was about six months pregnant with John the Baptist. Well, Mary wanted to visit. And she didn't just walk across the street. She traveled 70, 80 miles, three months pregnant.

And when she walked into the womb, what was Elizabeth's response? Elizabeth was overjoyed. And she goes, that the mother of my Lord would visit me. Not the mother of the baby who's going to be my Lord, the mother of my Lord.

He was her Lord inside of the womb. I mean, Luke was a physician. I mean, you look at how Luke described, and Luke was always great as far as descriptions. And he described the response of John the Baptist in the womb of Elizabeth.

He said, the baby leapt in his mother's womb for joy. So not only was John the Baptist moving around on the inside, but he actually expressed a human emotion of leaping in the womb for joy. But then we can go through other verses where you look in Psalm 139, how you formed my inmost being, you knit me in my mother's womb.

Did the psalmist know anything about cell differentiation and fetal development? No. That's a good point. There was a night of romance. And then all of a sudden, nine months later, there's a baby. And so the psalmist just realized, boy, you must have knit me together in my mother's womb.

But then you can even look at Jeremiah. Wait, just real quick.

I think that is really interesting that even in the ancient world, it was never something that's going on with your body. And then the baby comes, that even in the ancient perspective, they were viewing the growth of a baby in your womb being knitted together as a baby in itself.

There wasn't a separation between pre-birth and post-birth when you're already on earth. But even back then, they were already viewing the thing in your stomach that is a child. There is no difference there.

And they knew it was a patient. They knew it was a person there on the inside of a woman. Now, science has gone to the point where not only is it a person on the inside, it's a patient for me. But we look at other scriptures and you can look in Jeremiah where Jeremiah was having a bad day and God kind of looked at Jeremiah and he goes, Jeremiah, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.

Before you came out of the womb, I set you apart. I sanctified you to be a prophet unto the nation. So Jeremiah's feeling, woe is me, woe is me. Nobody's here to help me. God's like, I knew you when you were on the inside of the womb.

I set you apart. I had a job for you to do. God has that same thing with all of us. And even when you look through Exodus, you look at Exodus 21, where you have the story of two men fighting. They are fighting and they're thinking they're in the MMA or something.

And then accidentally they bump into a pregnant woman and she delivers the baby. Well, what does scripture say in Exodus 21?

Oh my gosh, I've never heard this story before. This is crazy. It's Exodus 21.

So the guys are fighting. They've hit a pregnant woman and she delivers. Well, if she delivers and the baby survives, then there was a fine. It's like, hey, you hit my wife. It was an accident, but you hit my wife.

You put her into labor and she delivered that baby. But then the scripture also goes on and says, but what if there was harm? What if the baby dies? Scripture says that even though this was an accidental death, there was something very special about that baby.

And if the baby died after mom went into labor early, the penalty for these guys was the death penalty. It's the only case in scripture where an accidental death resulted in the death penalty. We read stories about, you know, you're, you're, you know, cutting wood with an ax and the ax head goes flying off and accidentally it hit somebody in the head and they die.

Well, was there a penalty? Yeah. You had to go to a sanctuary city until the high priest passed away and you had protection there in the sanctuary city. But God had so much love for the preborn that he's like, man, this is a totally different thing.

Yeah, I hear you. This was an accident, but the penalty will be the death penalty for killing that baby in the womb. And it's not just that God, I mean, God loves us all. Right. He loves all sinners. We know that.

And we can even look through scripture and we can say in Romans 5, 8, where it says, God showed his love for us in this while we were still sinners. Christ died for us. I mean, he not only came to earth, lived the perfect life as an embryo, he died for us.

He was dead and buried for three days, but he conquered the grave, rose again. And if we put our trust in him, we can have forgiveness of all of our sins. But he did that for all sinners. Well, when was my first sin?

I mean, I don't remember it. But then we go into Psalm 51, 5 and the Psalmist says, yeah, I was a sinner from my birth. I was a sinner from the time my mother conceived me. So Jesus came, lived a perfect life, gave his life and then conquered the grave for all sinners.

But if we are a sinner from the time of our conception, when our mothers conceived us, and yes, we're creating the image of God, but we also have a sin nature, not on our birthday, but at that moment of conception.

So if God loved all of us, including the pre-born that Jesus did all that for all sinners, and that includes the pre-born, then if God loves them that much, then we have a duty to defend and protect that image of God.

When you look at abortion, this is not, I mean, it's great having pro-life obstetricians. It's great having pro-life politicians. This is a spiritual battle. And we need to have it led by our spiritual leaders.

Well, and it's also so refreshing that you're a doctor and yet you hold all of these biblical beliefs so closely. I mean, I'm sure that there's a bit of cognitive dissonance sometimes when it's the medical recommendation and then you know, obviously, so much biblical basis that argues for life.

Rape, Incest, and Adoption

I'm going to pivot a little bit into some of the, I'm going to ask the questions I'm afraid to ask. And I'm so excited for what you have to say because I feel like nobody gets these types of opportunities like I do, but what about those situations where it seems impossible to have the child?

You know, it seems like abortion is the only option. And so I'm just going to give you a couple scenarios and I would love to know this biblically-based approach to it, especially being a doctor. Let's start out with the whammy.

What about rape? Hey, it's Cass. I have a secret that I haven't really shared with you guys. When I'm not podcasting, I basically live at the gym and I think that I've hid it for so long because fitness always felt a little too, I don't know, secular to talk about on a Christian channel.

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Now, back to the show. Sure. I mean, rape, is this a horrible crime? Absolutely, yes. It needs to be thoroughly investigated and then tried fairly and then punished to the fullest extent of the law. This is just a horrible violation.

But if I had an ultrasound image here and an ultrasound image here, and I said, look, these are two babies in the womb. They're both at about 10 weeks gestation. We all see friends who send us their pictures of their babies in the womb.

I said, I want you to look real carefully. Tell me which baby was conceived in rape. We go around to our colleges and typically we'll have 200, 400 kids that are in these lectures. And we'll ask them statistically about one in 200 pregnancies is sadly the result of rape.

I said, if we have a crowd of 400 people here, I want you to look around at the crowd in this big lecture hall. And I want you to tell me which of your classmates was conceived in rape, which of them didn't deserve to live.

And they're all looking around. They know that there's people. So we don't punish a child for the sins of the father. We prosecute and we convict and then we punish to the fullest extent. I have great friends, you know, young and old who were conceived in rape.

Am I going to tell them that they don't have value? And then even as far as say the child isn't perfect. I mean, we have a child, and he's now a young man who actually testified before Congress. You know, he testified before Congress and he said, I have value.

And he absolutely does. I mean, he's a little bit different, but he was still created in the image of God. And he has value. He's now a national speaker. He works with the Special Olympics, defending the rights of people who have a condition, just like he does down syndrome.

So when it comes to rape, provide all the support that that mom needs, provide all the counseling that she needs, all the opportunities. And if she's at a point where she says, I just cannot raise this baby.

We have two million people who want to adopt a child who would love to have that child. So prosecute, punish to the fullest extent, support these moms. But we don't, I mean, are we going to go up to a five-year-old and say, hey, we just found out that you were conceived in a rape.

So, you know, we kind of missed our opportunity to kill you back when you're in your mother's womb. Will we even think of saying, so we're going to kill you now? No. I imagine you feel the same way about incest then.

Yeah. Incest is just rape from a family member. I mean, it's horrible and we need support. We need support for the mom. We need to take care of her medically, psychologically, and we need to share the gospel with these moms.

Disability, Life-Limiting Diagnoses, and Care

I mean, there's a lot of hurt and there's a lot of healing that needs to be taking place. But are there needs? I mean, you know, a physician's job should not just to be taken the easy way. I mean, your role of a physician, if I were to get diagnosed with a grade four astrocytoma, I mean, it's a brain tumor.

We don't have a cure for, and I will die. Do we get the diagnosis and say, hey, Dr. Lau, you got a grade four astrocytoma. It's going to take a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot of effort. We'd like to just sort of set you up and humanely euthanize you in a week or two.

Now, you know, God forbid that we start to take the easy way. We look at quote unquote position assisted suicide, or as it's called MADE, medical assistance in dying. It's now the fourth leading cause of death in all of Canada.

I mean, because they have socialized medicine and they don't even value life. But you see that as the easy way out? It's the wrong way. I mean, they're just saying, hey, you've got a disease, you know, instead of saying let's treat your pain, let's medically treat you the easy way and say, yeah, let's just kill you.

I mean, you can actually have, you know, a doctor assisted or medical assistance in dying parties at their house where a van will show up. You have all of your family and friends that are there. They can say goodbye to you.

They start an IV and you're dead. That's taking the easy way. That's not investing and working towards comfort and cure and respecting somebody for who they are.

And it's like, we don't want to be bothered. We'd just rather kill you. Well, I think comfort does play a big part in this. You know, I actually have a friend where their grandmother, you know, she's at her end of life.

For her, she's decided, you know, this is it for me. But like within children, if you have a child and you know their life is going to be uncomfortable and they have some sort of severe abnormality, you know, something beyond Down syndrome where they are, you know, crippled in a wheelchair, they're unable to speak, whatever it might be.

Do you, how do you defend, you know, a mother being like the loving thing to do is to not let bring a child into this world with those types of incapabilities? There's a great speaker.

You've probably heard him before. You know, Nick has no arms and no legs. He's a powerful speaker. And it's like, are we going to say, you know what? Your baby has no arms, no legs. The first one who would be there to defend that baby would be Nick, you know, because, you know, just because you're a little bit different.

I mean, we have friends who have had delivered babies with trisomy 18, trisomy 13 that have brought more love to that family. You gotta dumb that down for me, doc. I have no idea what that is. Where, you know, Down syndrome is when you have an extra chromosome 21.

Got it, got it. Sometimes you can have an extra chromosome 18 or an extra chromosome, you know, number 13. Lots of, you know, differences in when these babies are born. I've had babies that have been referred to us, pregnant moms that have had what we would consider to be lethal anomalies where you look on the ultrasound, it's like, boy, this baby is probably not going to survive.

So when we meet with these couples and we confirm this diagnosis, one thing we start with is like, we will be with you, mom and dad and family will be with you during this pregnancy. We'll be with you during the delivery and then we'll give you all the support and counseling and help, you know, even with pastoral support that you need for as long as you need it.

But we'll be there for you because we've had moms who've been diagnosed with trisomy 13, trisomy 18 and encephaly where the baby has no brain. We had a baby that was, you know, had a teratoma, a huge tumor that was on the baby's face that when we got the experts all around the country to consult, they said, we're not going to be able to start an airway on this baby.

But we then delivered these babies. And we had one mom who was actually a nurse anesthetist. Her job was to put people to sleep before they get to have a surgery. And she was diagnosed with a baby with trisomy 13, horrible heart defects, things that were beyond our capability of repairing and fixing, you know, either in the womb or after delivery.

So we delivered the baby. The whole family was there. I mean, parents were there, aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins. Everybody was there. I got a call from charge nurse up on labor and delivery. Three hours later, and she goes, hey, Dr. Lyle, the family is still in there.

They're holding this baby. They're passing the baby around. They're kissing and loving on that baby. How long are we going to let them do this? I said, as long as they need. They will tell you when that is their time.

And about an hour after that, they called the nurse back in and they said, you know, we're done. What do we do next? I saw that same patient back in my office six weeks after the delivery. And she said, thank you.

She goes, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the effort that you put in and you standing up for my child. She said that everybody else just wanted us to go and abort that baby once we had the diagnosis.

She said, I'm a nurse anesthetist. You know that. She said, my job is to put people to sleep. She goes, I have bonded with this baby. I have felt this baby moving around since about 14, 15 weeks. I knew this baby's personality when the baby was awake, when this baby was asleep.

She said, I couldn't imagine somebody else putting me to sleep. And then some surgeon, you know, do a procedure, kill my baby and then deliver my baby, extract that baby. And he said, and she said, and then I never got a chance to see my baby.

She said, every one of my family members got to hold that baby, kiss that baby, you know, appreciate that life and to respect the humanity that that baby had. And she said, you know, I can't even believe that you and your wife and daughter came to my son's funeral.

I said, that's what it takes. That's what it means to be. Physician that's involved with their patient. I mean, we celebrate the good things, but then we mourn the losses that we have. But, but that happened with all three of our patients who we had delivered with what were considered to be very clear, life-threatening complications.

And the baby was not going to survive. But just because you diagnose something which we can't cure, doesn't mean that we don't respect that humanity and respect that life in the womb created in the image of God.

You, you mourn that loss. And it's just like my wife and I had four miscarriages. We had miscarriage, miscarriage. We had a daughter named Sydney, and then we had another miscarriage. We had a daughter named Emily and another miscarriage, but we still mourn that loss.

And, you know, there's an emotional, you have a, not only do your hormones go up or estrogen goes up, progesterone levels go up, potosin goes up. They all go up in anticipation of the pregnancy. And just like when people have a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy, they mourn the loss of that baby.