The House of Loreto, Stephen Boyce, the Cringey NXR Guys, and Hansen on ABS

Well greetings welcome to the dividing line on I guess it's Tuesday what oh, yeah,

I guess Tuesday One more this week on Thursday then next week we will be on the road heading to Lubbock, Texas and Las Cruces short trip only ten days

That's a pretty short one for me anyways when you're on the road and So, oh

I need to make sure to silence this thing Mute for an hour. Thank you

So the big all the kids can keep playing anyway looking for something in the

Our Group chat and Man, we post a lot of weird stuff in here

But I was looking for that Comment from boys I wanted to respond to that but it's not

There it is, okay, there it is Hopefully it won't scroll that's that's that's why

I love you get something sitting there and then you look back and Something completely different happens on X all the time

Lots of stuff up in the screen here how much we will get to I really don't know especially part of it is the alley best sucky thing with Jacob Hansen and That could take a lot of time.

So want to get to a few other things that I've had running around Um, first and foremost

Yesterday, let me see if I can pull this up. Yeah, here it is

Let's drag this over here and see if I can make this big or something Got that No, it doesn't want to let me do that does it no it doesn't not sure why

That is a new tab That's best I can be able to do there is for some reason there's normally the thing that says make this as big as the screen and It's not there

Might be because it's a I don't know not gonna speculate why X AI Continuously changes things without any really rational reason.

But anyway, um So, there you go, uh

I Posted this and you'll see the comment in the upper right -hand corner undoubtedly the new standard of cringe.

I saw this and of course, you've got Calvin Robinson in the middle and Joel Webbin over there and Joel Webbin sidekick on the other side

I've never heard him actually contribute an original thought so I don't generally think too much about him, but What am

I talking about when I say cringe my just talking about the cigarettes? Well No You know people have posted pictures of Jeff Durbin with a cigar.

See you're a hypocrite I have never gotten into any of that stuff. Um, I Grew up with an absolute detestation of smoking and it wasn't just religious though.

It did have a religious element to it. Um, I Just detest the smell and I I lost track

This was back in the days when you could smoke in a restaurant and there were no there were no rules against it.

I remember so clearly Me and my parents were at this Mexican restaurant in Youngtown, Arizona.

Okay, it's right next to this is still exist I'm not sure if Youngtown got sucked into Peoria or something because it was this tiny little bit of nothing and Anyway We're at this restaurant and is this table next to us was smoking and it was just ruining my food

I mean it just it it stinks cigarettes stink As it's been said properly many many times smoking a cigarette will not send you to hell

It'll only make you smell like you've already been there and it's true They you once you start smoking your breath will never be fresh again

Well, okay. It will be after a year of not doing it Anyways, this this couple, you know, this guy is smoking and they get up and they leave and he leaves the cigarettes sitting there putting on his plume of smoke and so I'm like So I reach over and I grab it and I stick it in the water glass and I put it back in the ashtray

You know They had gone to the restaurant Either that I got dancing or something.

I don't know they come back sit down this guy picks up and goes

Looking at it. I'm just like Yeah, anyway

You combine that With the fact that when when I was department fellow anatomy and physiology at Grand Canyon University under dr.

James Witherspoon We had our own cadavers we had cadavers before ASU had cadavers Ours were chemically stored.

We used phenol which has later been proven to be a carcinogen, but I've survived and We had a cadaver named

Willie and that was his actual name and I was involved in the original in the original displaying of him and Cutting him up and all the rest that kind of fun stuff

I used to be able to do all sorts of stuff like that Without even giving it a second thought. I I remember

I remember so clearly once I've told this story I'll goes the only one that remember but we were preparing for some anatomy and physiology thing and I was eating lunch so I had a bag of Cheetos in my hands and We have a cat splayed out on the thing because we were doing the circulatory system so he had to know what all the veins and arteries and I'm just sitting there eating lunch and This group of high school students comes through and They're checking out, you know

Grand Canyon and our facilities and stuff and I look over and there's this little kid The look of absolute shock on his face there's this dead cat and I'm eating and I'm doing you know right over it and That he turned white as a sheet and I thought he was gonna pass out.

But anyway The One of the biggest regrets regrets regrets

I have what what are you gonna interrupt me? Oh, okay That I have is that I did not take a

Polaroid picture This was back when that was about all you could do. This is long before cell phones

This is the 80s. Um, I Did not take a Polaroid picture of Willy's lungs

Because anywhere you cut in Willy's lungs was black as pitch black as pitch and You could point to the place on his heart that killed him

The myocardial infarction that took him out and made him a cadaver to be used at Grand Canyon back then college

Yeah, I was still college Um So I wish

I had done that I thought about doing it more than once Just show you that, you know anywhere you pulled that lung open

But I didn't do it and That's one of my great yeah, so I just Smoking a cigarette is one of the dumbest things you can ever do to your body.

There's just no question about it No one no one can argue about this I mean you're sucking carcinogens as Deeply into some of those sensitive tissues in your entire body with regularity.

Okay, it's stupid It's just dumb. I don't care and oh But all the stars of 1950s.

Yeah, let me remind you of the most amazing Male singing voice

I think ever Nat King Cole What a voice He would smoke half a pack before recording any song how early did he die in his 50s of lung cancer?

Oh Yeah So I have zero respect for cigarette smokers if you're addicted,

I'm sorry, you know You've got all sorts of patches and stuff like that, you know Cigars Only mildly less offensive to me.

I've never smelled one that I liked and People say yeah, but you don't inhale. I don't know.

I'm not gonna find out. I don't care. There are one or two Versions of pipe smoke that actually smells semi -decent one or two not not any others

Um, but I no way, you know, I'm still a cyclist I'm not I'm not poisoning my lungs with stuff like that so Yeah, okay.

I think the cigarette stuff is stupid But the reason

I call this cringe first of all is we are the new Christian, right? Okay.

Well, they're missing someone here You know who else is a part of NXR the new

Christian, right Jordan Hall and I you know,

I was never Jordan Hall's buddy But I went up there I spoke at his church he sort of moderated a debate we did up there was that 2013 something like that Might have been even earlier than that.

I think about I'd have to go back and look Um The the man that I used to know

Would have mocked that picture mercilessly and he knows it he knows it

But now he can't mock it because those are his boys That's his group.

That's who he's thrown in with the new Christian, right? so I had dinner with Joel Webbin only a few years ago in Georgetown and I don't remember any smoking.

I Never smelled cigarettes breath on him and that's really hard to hide. I Mean, I could have missed it.

I suppose but I get the distinct feeling. This is all brand -new This is all

Cringeworthy Pursuing the new sumum bonum, you know what the sumum bonum is sumum bonum is the

Latin phrase highest good The highest good what is the highest good now?

in Well in Chrysalis nationalism and online the highest good is engagement.

That's the new word Engagement how many people do you have clicking into your feet?

This is this is all that matters now theology consistency gospel

It doesn't produce engagement who cares it's irrelevant. And so this

Stuff evidently somebody thinks that looks cool. No, it doesn't it's absurd.

It's stupid Um, it doesn't look cool, especially when people realize you're just doing it for more engagement you're doing it for clicks but That's the whole reason it's being done so that's the reason

I find it stupid and cringeworthy, but there's something far more cringeworthy about this and That is he got two guys from an ostensibly

Probably not for long Reformed Baptist Church With a guy who only what two years ago

Agreed with and promoted one of the The crazy statements from Anthony Catholicism on X.

He's got just he's another engagement farmer He's just people throw stuff out there. All they're looking for is the bucks.

They it doesn't matter how stupid it is Doesn't matter how insane it is. You just throw it out there Um It's another reason why we're not monetized

Okay, you can't you can't look at me and say you say stupid things on X get money too.

No, I don't I'm not monetized I've got more than enough followers that I could probably make a fair amount of money

But can't so I don't get accused the same thing But he does it it's obvious and he's the one who threw that thing out there and said the thief on the cross

Was saved through the intercessory prayers of Mary which by the way, he repeated last week, I guess he's happened to be recycle stupid things to say and Calvin Robinson's going what's yo?

Yeah, that's that's when we really started getting an idea Just we had this idea for some reason when he first showed up during kovat that he was a conservative voice in the

Anglican Church and Which in England there aren't many sort of Anglicans He wasn't in fact,

I've lost track of all the different churches. He's been a part of and got kicked out of but the guys

Catholic in his soteriology and his Mariology and his hummer Tali harm artiology and everything else

So Here here these guys are standing there and they're the new Christian, right?

Which means the new Christian, right? What does it lack? The gospel

Yeah, the gospel. So let me ask you some good old Joel webinar pastor in in Texas not very far because I had to drive through it.

I had to go around one side of it to get up to Georgetown Not very far from Austin Now you want the deepest?

bluest part of Texas It's Austin and Houston Okay, I mean look at look at the people that are elected in these places,

I mean they are California level loons Okay, absolute nutcases

These guys are gonna change America they're gonna take over Do you think that the area

Around Austin Georgetown that part of Texas, you know, I'm not sure what congressional districts

There are and all the rest that kind of stuff. I didn't probably look that up Do you think?

that Talarico this wacko leftist

Nutball that's running for Senate. Do you think he's gonna carry that area? Of course you will He'll carry their area around Austin whether Georgetown is in that same district or something,

I don't know I didn't look How come we don't see massive changes happening there in Georgetown and Austin because we have

Christian nationalist pastors nationally known ones one guy who just spoke at this

America America first United thing that weapons spoke at And I didn't oh drat.

I was gonna cue that up. Um There was a guy that spoke of this thing that weapons spoke at and he was talking about these non -negotiable things and Christian nationalism and repealing the 19th and and Realistic racial viewpoints and anti Israel supremacy and you know all his

Stuff that gets him the clicks, which he wasn't talking anything about any of that a few years ago but He does his thing and who comes up after he's done a chick

You know the women that aren't supposed to be speaking Republican should have the vote taken away from him and somebody told me she's actually a

Muslim there were Muslims speaking at this thing and One of the guys who spoke I listened to some of what he was saying,

I don't know if it was right after him it's a Mormon guy and He's talking about how the

Jews edited the Old Testament To take out references in the Old Testament.

He's talking about how the Bible's corrupted This is America first United Yeah, what's the one thing you have to do to get speak there?

Throw the gospel out the window That's what that's your that's your bona fide that's what's gonna get you through the door

Chuck the gospel Don't witness to the Mormon don't witness to the

Muslim Because that'll make us ununited right Disunited Yeah, that's same guy

How's it? How's it going with the Christian nationalism there in Georgetown? Who's who's been elected now?

You see without a gospel. They can't change hearts without hearts. They're not gonna win elections. They're not gonna change elections

It's Christless nationalism. It's just Political chicanery it's how to get clicks how to get engagement.

It's all it is so when I say You know when I call this cringeworthy, you know what people did they started posting pictures of me wearing a cat shirt

Okay, which means they didn't get what I was saying They didn't understand for a second.

I'm not trying to get clicks I'm not trying to get engagement. Oh Bejeweled unit we invented this.

Okay. I'm not Al Gore. I didn't invent the Internet but I've never had anybody come up to me in a quarter century and Say we were doing webcasting before you now.

There might have been somebody I Don't know We weren't Prophets we weren't looking going.

Hey, this is a wave of the future. No, we were poor as church mice We were just trying to survive and we we had this radio program on Saturdays on terrestrial radio nobody listens to terrestrial radio on Saturday and We just noticed something over time.

We were paying like 700 bucks a month as I recall, huh? 600 a month for an hour -long program on Saturdays Yeah, I was like 98 99 somewhere on there and Yeah, it was it was a massive part of our budget

Yeah, I was making a lot of money back then and We just noticed that people were

The calls who get in the program were from the Internet which had only recently become a thing

And The radio station was already Live -streaming technically on a platform called real audio real audio mp3 hadn't been invented yet and So we're like Rich is like, you know, all of our callers are

Out of state. They're not even listening to the program on radio. They're listening to it on the

Internet now and They call in and So he goes and he decides you know what?

I wonder if we can do real audio and what would be involved? So you went out? Yeah, we can get a real audio server and I need to do this and I need to get that and we can do this ourselves and So we started doing the dividing line on real audio from Rich's garage at his house, that's where my office was and In fact,

I'll never forget that office, which is a garage again, by the way But I'll never forget in that office

You know, we put a microphone on This desk thing I had. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Well, I don't think that's same one No, I don't think so. No, no, no, that was this a deeper deeper color.

We replaced it when we moved in here anyway and I remember doing the very first radio free

Geneva in that office via real audio That's how long ago it was so that you know, we're talking a quarter century now

Since we since we did this so we've been doing this forever. We don't need to be looking for engagement

We're not we're not trying to get clicks The people that watch this program want to because They go these guys been around they're getting old

They get a little long in the tooth and they've been consistent all along That's that's all there is to it.

And these guys they're like consistency. What's that? We'll just which way is the wind blown today?

Oh smoking. Let's do smoking. Okay whatever You know, let's go get the

Jews that seems to be really popular today Okay now and who knows what's gonna be five years from now

But I can guarantee you I can guarantee you five years from now Joel Webb and will not be talking about the same non -negotiables.

He's talking about now ain't gonna happen He didn't make it three years the same non -negotiables.

So five mm. I don't happen. I don't happen so anyway, uh, so For those of you who go.

Oh, well, look at you. I mean look at the dumb shirt. You're wearing. Okay, okay Maybe you don't like my cat shirt.

I don't care I'm not wearing it to try to be cool I'm not sitting here smoking a cigarette someone did create a

AI of me in here smoking a cigarette Which is if you want a real abusive

AI, there you go. That's the dumbest thing could ever happen. What so for a couple of a well certain

Roman Catholic in the chat right now who Has been going on about me being the one not taught commenting on this.

I Was repulsed by cigarette smoke see I was not raised like you I was raised in well

I was raised in a Philistine family. We'll put that way And they were chain smokers. Oh Yeah, all the way up into my mid -teens and I learned anything you have from that period of your life still smells.

Yeah Well, I Remember giving them so much grief at the age of 12.

I Was giving them grief of how disgusting and terrible and it stank and on and on and of course my allergies

Compounded and So and their solution to that was to give the 12 year old some

Actifed for his allergies and he can go down for a long nap But no you you you won't find me anywhere around that stuff either.

Yeah. Oh, no. No, no No, no. No, okay one other thing

This is what I was looking for Okay last program

I think or the one before I responded to Stephen Boyce's meme and I said hey look

You you want it you want to debate because he talked about let's let's debate. Well, well, here's Here's what he he wrote.

Evidently. This is on Facebook. I just detest Facebook, but someone put it So basically

I call out James White for misspeaking about Ignatius of Antioch in his debate with Joe Heschmeier And I challenged him to two separate on two separate platforms one being

Cameron Bertuzzi channel, which is not happening by the way Concerning his claims. There is no bishop in Rome based on Ignatius at the turn of the century and that this

Was a layered development coming out of the East. I forgot to grab it. Doggone it. I almost feel like Having you cue up a song for a second

You know if I'm gonna respond to this You know what?

This is live Hold on a second. I need to get something. Okay, something I forgot.

Hold on. I Know my library better than I should Look If you want to talk in a scholarly fashion,

I guess I should have closed the door about The the challenging subject of the early succession lists and The ecclesiology of the

Church of Rome then you need to go a scholarship. Okay. So for example Fortress press what was the date on this?

So in 2003, so it's been 20 years Chapter 41 fractionation monarchical episcopate episcopacy and presbyterial government governance in Peter Lambs the the from Paul to Valentinus.

Okay. This is the kind of stuff you'd be looking at and Boyce Has gotten really bad since he started becoming a

Catholic and accurately representing what I say. It's it's convert syndrome. It's the same thing Notice what he says here

Based on Ignatius at the turn of the century that there was no bishop in Rome based on Ignatius Excuse me

There is a vast difference Stephen between a monarchical episcopate and A plurality of elders which would be bishops.

So, of course, there is a bishop in Rome. There just wasn't one Why can't you accurately represent things?

It's because you're not thinking about it You're in the honeymoon phase. You don't even hear what you're saying

So this is the stuff everybody needs to be thinking about Because Cameron Bertuzzi also just put out a engagement creating video

New information, it's been 120 years and this is it. There's nothing new in it at all

Nothing zero new data at all in This presentation.

It's just meant to get clicks Yeah, well it was an interesting argument, yeah, it's interesting argument, but it's still ignores the reality

That of course there was a bishop in Rome Just not one there was a plurality that's the point that's the issue

So And then secondly, what did I say wrong about Ignatius Are you saying that there are not people who have questioned

Ignatius's existence because of the wide variety of different traditions in the Ignatian materials, is that what you want to defend that no one's ever questioned that?

What'd I say wrong? I didn't say anything wrong It's it was what you and your buddies picked up on and lied about later

You want to you want me to defend your lies not gonna do that Okay, I mean the desperation of wanting to debate

The final question in a cross -examination in a in a debate that wasn't even on that topic

Tells you the state of modern Roman Catholic apologetics. It really does. I mean

Francis took the heart out of it and Leo ain't helping because he's continuing the exact same stuff.

He really is so I Laid out to him You want to debate you want to debate church history, dr.

Stephen Boyce, then let's actually debate church history And I laid out and I've sent sent this through an intermediary.

I Laid out to him the specific statements Dogmatic statements of the

Church of Rome in In defining the Immaculate Conception the bodily assumption of Mary Especially in in Ephebelus Deus, which is the 1854

Immaculate Conception claim. They got a little less Bold in 1950 with the bodily assumption.

They used weasel words on that one, but not in 1854 In 1854 when they laid this out, not only do they have the the anathemas

But you have the claim that this is the ancient faith of the church It's not that's a lie. And I said

Stephen Boyce you want to defend your new religion? Here is one of the most recent definitions.

I mean 1854 some people. Ah, it's forever ago. No, it's not That's relatively recent.

That's a modern that's modern church history So here is your church that you submitted yourself to You've abandoned the gospel

You've abandoned justification by faith. You've turned your back on the imputed righteousness of Christ for this system

So defend it defend its historical claims you're a historian, right?

Why in the world would you want to defend why would you want me to defend some disputed statement in a debate on a topic the debate wasn't even about rather than a clear

Perspicuous claim of your own religion that you now tell people they should be a part of That is historically fraudulent

You know, you cannot defend immaculate conception. You know that Pope's taught against it

You know not even Thomas Aquinas believed the version that is eventually dogmatized You know all of that and what's more is you know, the early church didn't have a clue of this stuff

You know all that that's why you won't defend it Just be honest with yourself.

I mean, it's tough in the convert stage. I get it honeymoon stage. It's rough You know, you've got that conscience gnawing at you and you know,

I I understand it's it's rough but Yeah, so here here he says

Unrelated debate topics on X stuff like that He then calls me out over a meme and accused me of lying even though he is the one who misspoke on what

I Did not I never said he did not exist. You know that be honest quit lying to yourself

And after multiple multiple explanations and excuses finally admitted he should not have

Commented on Ignatius the way he did in an unimportant segment of the debate. That's not the same thing You are playing with weasel words, and you know you are and so Then he says

I'm willing to do a separate Marian debate dealing with how the Reformers understood these doctrines and whether Protestants Should accept them today

Okay again, I Have no concern about the fact that Luther Began with deep devotion to Mary the fact is by the end of his life

He had diminished all of almost all that stuff Anybody who started with that I mean

Zwingli didn't live long enough to really track any of it, but Luther diminished His emphasis upon Mary throughout his life

Calvin had Almost nothing to say about it It was not a part of the first generation or the second part of the generation of the

Reformation. It's irrelevant It means nothing and the fact that you guys have to hammer on this again shows you won't defend

The actual dogmatic teachings of Rome you are afraid to all of you are All of you are there's only one guy.

There's been one guy. No two guys two guys The attorney on Long Island Defended the

Immaculate Conception. He used fraudulent sources in it, but he's tried and Bob St. Genes Defended the bodily assumption on what basis?

Acts 15 so it was just an authority argument. It wasn't a historical argument because you know, you can't do it that way

Jerry Jerry and I did Immaculate Conception during I did well Jerry and I did all the Marian dogmas That that first time around so yeah,

Jerry has done Immaculate Conception Yeah, and by so I guess we can throw him in there, but Jerry's not a Roman Catholic anymore

So well, of course, he says he's one of the only Roman Catholics anymore So I don't know what he says anymore be honest with you.

I haven't heard of Jerry The last thing I heard about Jerry Matta -Tix was when he was on Jeopardy Seriously and he didn't win that day, but hey probably did a whole lot better than I would have

So look What are we doing? Why are we avoiding the main topic to start all this in the first place?

You know what the main topic start all this in first place your apostasy. That's what started it

Okay, so Steven you're you're blowing smoke and everybody can see through it

So either go no, I will not defend the Immaculate Conception I will not defend in Nefabelis Deus I will not defend the historicity of the claims of my own new religion.

Just come out and say it But stop with this stuff. This is silly.

It's embarrassing. It really is My hope is that someday you're gonna go.

Wow. I can't believe what convert syndrome does to you But it's pretty sad

Really is speaking of that stuff I ran across Remember a couple weeks ago and this is relevant to the boy stuff

Go weeks ago. I read you I put up on the screen the litany of Loretto. I did a little looking around and I had not seen it before then

I Guess it's fairly famous, but I could spend a lot of time looking into the

Wild -eyed Marian stuff that developed from say 1200 all the way up to the current time

I mean, I've shown you the pictures of the ugly duckling car building, you know

I couldn't have been that long ago that I I showed that picture of The Mary in the window, which was actually a reconstituted water stain from a palm tree

But there's Mary until the building got de -marianized by a slingshot from a nearby gas station

This wild Insane Marian cult stuff continues to this day, but it didn't start just recently.

It's been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years and so When I had seen this litany of Loretto thing and I had commented on it.

I I read it on the on the program Boy there was a lot of comments on X and all these.

Oh, thank you for posting. It's Beautiful. It's just it's you know, it's just so lovely.

It is is like no it's is so blasphemous And it just shows you that Without opening the eyes there.

There are people literally looking at this thing where 85 % is about Mary 85 % of it and then you got the

Trinity at the top and the tree at the bottom and they're like see it mentions the Trinity And it's like okay, but there's 85 % of it is pure hooey

So far beyond anything that any Apostle ever dreamed That you can't even comment on it.

But as long as it mentions the Trinity that we're good That's it was pretty amazing so I Decided to go.

Oh, okay Loretto. I Wonder if that has to do with the house of Loretto So let me tell you just briefly.

I'm not going to lies. I need to get into the alley best ducky stuff, but one of the most visited

Marian shrines in the world is the house of Loretto and Most Protestants have never heard of it ever heard the house

Loretto. No rich going. Yep I've probably mentioned it in passing

It's a it's a small stone building about 9 .5 meters long 4 meters wide 5 meters tall.

That's small That's that's very small It is in a basilica now which surrounds it so the this little buildings inside it and Here's the description the structure is made of stone lacks foundations and sits directly on the ground it has three walls a fourth was supposedly already part of a larger structure in Nazareth and Contains no mortar typical of local

Italian construction Okay now The earliest documentation we have about this is from 1294 and what's happening at the end of the 13th century is the collapse of the

Crusader States and in all probability in all probability

What really gave rise this story historically? was some wealthy

Crusader state family that comes back to Italy as the Muslims are pushing everybody out and there was a shrine or some type of You know something lost to history associated with Nazareth and They transported either some of the stones or maybe a bunch of the stones with them back to Italy and Then this story grew up around it because this is an incredibly incredulous period

The things that people believe during this time period are Amazing.

I mean, this is right after Thomas Aquinas is death Thomas believed for example that Luke created an icon of Mary painted an icon of Mary and this is evidence of the

Apostolic origins of icon veneration and all that kind of stuff And this is where many the relics come from, you know,

I you know as Erasmus well said There were so many genuine splinters of the cross in Europe in his day, they could have built an entire ship out of them

You know feathers from the angel Gabriel of a Vial of Mary's breast milk.

I mean seriously, this is the kind of stuff that you have From this time period

People believed almost anything right now So that's probably where it came from but here's what the story is the story is the story that's that popes have believed and given indulgences to come visit this place and and This this litany of Loretto the one

I read to you is from Vatican VA it's the official website of the

Vatican and this Prayer is now closely associated with the house of Loretto.

It's called the litany of Loretto house of Loretto And This is supposedly the house where the

Annunciation took place and where the Holy Family lived in Nazareth that was picked up by angels and air transported from Nazareth To Italy now it landed in a couple different places

Eventually in 1294 in the location that it's in now But yes

Rome believed and Gave credence to and has given indulgences for going to visit the house of Loretto Which is supposedly

Mary's house Carried by angels from the Holy Land to Italy, okay so These kinds of prayers that are so wildly imbalanced

So wildly imbalanced it Some of you may not have heard it. Some of you may not have heard it

We'll run through it it's not long. Well, it's actually it feels really long when you have to read it

Lord have mercy Christ have mercy Lord have mercy Christ hear us Christ graciously hear us God the Father of heaven have mercy on us

God the Son redeemed of the world God the Holy Spirit Holy Trinity one God Okay, so we've got the Trinity right to start.

Yay And that's pretty much where it ends then Holy Mary pray for us

Holy Mother of God Holy Virgin of Virgins Mother of Christ Mother of the Church Mother of Mercy Mother Divine Grace Mother of Hope Mother most pure mother most chaste mother inviolate mother undefiled mother most amiable mother most admirable mother of good counsel

Mother of our Creator mother of our Savior virgin most prudent virgin most venerable virgin most renowned virgin most powerful virgin most merciful

Virgin most faithful mirror of justice seed of wisdom cause of our joy spiritual vessel vessel of honor singular vessel of devotion

Mystical Rose Tower of David Tower of Ivory House of Gold Ark of the Covenant Gate of Heaven Morning Star health of the sick refuge of sinners solace of migrants comfort of the afflicted help of Christians Queen of Angels Queen of Patriarchs Queen of Prophets Queen of Apostles Queen of Martyrs Queen of confessors

Queen of Virgins Queen of all Saints Queen conceived without original sin Queen assumed into heaven

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary Queen of Families Queen of Peace Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world spare us

O Lord Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world Graciously hear us O Lord Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us pray for us

O Holy Mother of God that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ Let us pray grant we beseech

Thee O Lord God that we your servants May enjoy perpetual health of mind and body and by the glorious intercession of the

Blessed Mary ever virgin May be delivered from present sorrow and obtain eternal joy through Christ our Lord.

Amen. There is the litany of Loretta 85 % of it

Maybe 90 is about Mary with all sorts of descriptions that have

No connection To anything in Scripture at all Just they're complete later developments without any kind of foundation in divine revelation this is the litany of Loretta and It becomes associated with this mythical house

That millions of people a year still visit. Why would they go there if they don't believe that it was actually

Miraculously transported by angels Why not Peter's house that would have been that would have gone well in Rome.

I guess I shouldn't give them any ideas You know This is the

This is the stuff. Most people don't know about when they convert and Then once they've converted it's like well if the church says it's okay

That's your ultimate authority and you now know soul scripture isn't true So you get to believe whatever you're told to believe even if it clearly has nothing to do with the

Apostles at all But they'll tell you it has to do with the Apostles. So you get to believe it There you go

There is the house of Loretto and the litany of Loretto yay, all right

Let's go ahead and dive into this I'm going to play this

At 1 .25 so both Ali Bestaki and Jacob Hanson sound much smarter

We all we all sound smarter At one well not everybody I'll have to admit there are some people who do not sound smarter at 1 .25

but we'll at least get started here and Because there's a lot of stuff that comes up and you know,

I'll have to skip past commercials and stuff. There's a lot of them but Why do this because this is the new

Mormonism and People need to be prepared to deal with the new

Mormonism. I talked a little bit about I played the segment where he quoted my interpretation of John one said hey,

I agree with him. No, he doesn't No, he doesn't Now he's not an

Orthodox Mormon in his doctrine of God Unfortunately that did not come out clearly in this conversation

My concern is people listen to this and go that Mormonism doesn't sound as bad as I thought it did Well, yeah, it's because this guy is actually not an

Orthodox Mormon That's why Um, but there's still other things to deal with here, so let's just start

I just I just dove in 23 minutes into it, you know get past some of the chit -chat to start

Well, like what are they gonna go to who qualifies for what so we would generally say that that again? I'm kind of generalizing here.

Think of it in terms of light. We use an analogy of Sun Moon and stars, right? So the stars have light but it's a lesser light than what one could could enjoy the moon has a different level

Okay of light. Okay, you're talking about levels of heaven and Of course you have the

Celestial level the terrestrial level and the telestial level and then you have utter darkness or hell and What you need to understand is there is no such thing as telestial

Joseph Smith made that up. He made up a word that never existed before Because he was one of the world's worst exegetes of Scripture he was an ignorant young man and He literally looked at the

King James Version of the Bible could not read the original languages though he pretended he could when you claim to be able to read

Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics, you sort of have to make pretense that kind of stuff and In the

King James Version of the Bible You know one of the things that we've criticized the KJV for for years has been

The fact that there was no final Smoothing editing committee

To make sure that you have consistency across the translation so in John The King James Version of the

Bible when translating the same Greek words Talks about heavenly and earthly How can you believe you know heavenly things if you don't believe in earthly things?

but it a different group translated the Pauline epistles and translated

John and So they rendered the same Greek words as celestial and terrestrial

So celestial is heavenly Terrestrial is earthly Now in most modern translations, they're both can be rendered the same way because there's been editing but that didn't happen to King James and So you have the same

Greek word with the same meaning? being translated differently well King well Joseph Smith doesn't know this and so Paul talks about the three level that there are there are three glories

The glory of the Sun the glory of the moon glory the stars well, that's three and Then he says and there's a celestial glory and a terrestrial glory that's only two and So Joseph Smith goes well, there's three levels.

There's Sun Moon and stars so if the Sun is celestial and The moon is terrestrial then what's the stars and And he takes the first two letters of terrestrial and slaps them on the last letters of celestial and comes up with a new world world called celestial

But we're in Scripture But when you're a prophet, it doesn't have to be you can make stuff up as you go along, you know polygamy all sorts of stuff

I go So there's your three levels and If you look at the side of the salt -like temple, which didn't fall over a few years ago, but almost it

If You look inside the temple you'll see the Sun stones and so up at the top the full

Sun and Then in the middle, you've got the moon and down below you have stars so those are your three levels in the the stones on the side of the

Side of the temple that a person could enjoy and then the Sun is kind of the fullness of of light, right?

And so what we would do is that the people in the lowest kingdom of glory are basically your normal kind of bad person

They just aren't people that that you know want to do what's right These are and they will only enjoy that which they are willing to receive

In the middle is sort of what we would call like the good people that but that aren't willing for one reason or another to Embrace the fullness of Jesus Christ to accept his sacrifice into their life and enter into covenant relationship

What was that? They're kind of good people I would say well, no, I'd say they might be very good people But just because you're a very good person doesn't mean that you've necessarily decided to accept your cross and bear what

Jesus Christ wants to Give you are the simplest way to put it is this you will get eternally what you really want

And if you yeah, there's a there's a amazingly Human centered perspective sounds real good though.

I mean, that's what that's what Hanson's about is making Mormonism sound good I'm not sure if he's been sent out there to sort of try to slow the the bleeding or Try to you know

Amp up the the converts at least converts to a Some form of Mormonism.

I don't know but it sounds good, and he's very good at making things sound good and Using Christian terminology to do so You know all the things that Christ has for you things like that.

I've had Mormons. Tell me That I'm gonna make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom, I've had a number of Mormons.

Tell me that One of the Most enjoyable experiences

I had early on in Salt Lake City The first time we ever went up there Mike Bell and I we went up in May We didn't know about the gen we didn't know about the general conference back then

We're just standing outside the North Gate Passing out tracks all these people walking by with these little

Bags they've been going through the temple and stuff like that and It was hot we didn't have any water

It was just he and I so there was it used to be a Howard Johnson's across the street I'm not sure whatever happened that but anyway

I'm walking across North Temple the intersection of North Temple and West Temple And I've got tracks with me, and so there's this

Mormon guy walking along He's got his bag from having been baptized the dead or whatever it was he was doing it he had come out the members entrance and So I offer him a track while we're literally walking in the crosswalk

And he looks at it, and he realizes what it is. He looks at me and says go to hell and I just kept walking with him and said sir according to your theology.

I can't He looked so Frustrated because he knew

I was right He knew that I was not an apostate Mormon and So he yeah,

I don't know where that came from but I like telling this right don't want

Jesus Christ Then you'll sell yourself short of your potential And so we don't believe that God will take someone who's lived a good life as a

Latter -day Saint serve their neighbors raised a good Family and then internally torture them in in hell For that decision we believe that they're going to be able to retain whoever they are

Whether they're within our church or without that they're going to be able to retain whatever light and goodness that they are Willing to accept

God will give them but there's a fullness and that fullness of light that a person will Being able to to enjoy

It's all predicated on them and their willingness to follow Jesus because the path that Jesus is calling us to as you would know is

Not an easy path and somebody has to go through the LDS Church to get that fullness of light in eternity I wouldn't when you say the church

I would say it has to go through the the priesthood structure that Christ has organized on earth is that now this was what?

Hanson Avoided with Heschmeier and we criticized Joe Heschmeier for not focusing on it and criticized him for never truly giving a

Historically full Definition of the apostasy because the fundamental element of the great apostasy is the loss of priesthood authority.

I Mean that there's there isn't any question about that. I mean when I when I think of stuff That I would have said

You know on Van Halen's program not Van Halen Van Halen's program

Up on KTKK radio in Salt Lake City back in the 1980s or In any of the dialogues we had up there back in those days

What I think of stuff that would not have been at all Disputable or anyone would have even given a second look at that would be it that That would be one of the things would be that the

LDS teaching is there was a great apostasy through the loss of priesthood authority and You've got to understand that and that's why

I've said I would really love To arrange a debate in the

Salt Lake or Provo area With a meaningful representative I debate him

I the reason I would hesitate to debate Jacob Hansen on this subject is

Because I think a lot of Mormons recognize He's compromised

When it comes to the doctrine of God He's not affirming the the definitional elements of LDS theology when it comes to God if you can't agree

With Joseph Smith when he said we have imagined suppose that God was God from all eternity I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see if You refute

Joseph Smith on that. I can't see how you're actually a Mormon You may do all the rest of stuff. You may go to a Mormon ward on Sunday whatever but I can't see how you're a

Mormon and He won't You saw the debate maybe you did or didn't but I debated him a couple months ago

He wouldn't go there So he's not an Orthodox Mormon Would he hold to the

Orthodox LDS view on the priesthood? I? Don't know. I don't know.

I guess that would be something that if he or be the only one that would do it That we'd have to talk about but You know, maybe there's some others

But I would really like You know, I spent it probably

April of a year from now for general conference

To find a meaningful representative To defend the

LDS concept of the priesthood biblically and historically biblically and historically

Neither one is possible Well, and when I say historically I'm gonna be making the argument that there was no claim to holding the priesthood on April 6 1830 and You go who would care

April 6 1830 is the founding the LDS Church It's when the Christian Church came back into proper organizational existence after You know seventeen eighteen hundred years of non organizational existence

Supposedly in 1829 John the Baptist comes back gives the Aaronic priesthood Restores the

Aaronic priesthood Peter James and John come back and restore the Melchizedek priesthood well Whoever came up with those ideas had never read the book of Hebrews.

Okay, that's just all there is to it. So And as David W Whitmer Pointed out clearly and as the changes in the

Book of Commandments 1833 Book of Commandments 1835 Doctrine Covenant show That priesthood stuff was added later.

It was added between those time periods and so there simply isn't any evidence that those specific claims to holding those priesthoods existed on April 6 1830 that developed over time and so the the two -pronged issue is

That was a development even in LDS theology and most importantly it is wildly anti -biblical

I mean the book of Hebrews destroys the

LDS theology in this and I I Can tell you? This is an area that Mormons are incredibly weakened.

I Sadly But yeah, so I'd love to work on something for next year up in Salt Lake Provo You know,

I spoke at a Southern Baptist Church in Provo this last time up and Maybe they could work with us.

The problem is finding somebody would take this on if I was a Mormon and I did some reading on the

New Testament teaching on the priesthood. I Wouldn't want to defend Joseph Smith.

It was plainly Something that developed over time something he made up on the fly.

I Wouldn't want to have to have to defend that I get it. I I get why someone might not want to do that But who's that other guy here locally

It's been trying to get Jeff to do a silly debate on Sola Scriptura when

But and and I when you say silly Let me just comment on this

The names just missing me, I'm sorry, maybe somebody'll Pop it up in the maybe something pop it up in the chat

Look up challenge to Jeff Durbin to debate Sola Scriptura that he's been he's been saying he'd

Have people donate to to make this happen, so and the

He was the other guy that joined with Jacob Hansen in the debate and apology a few years ago His name's just blanking on me here anyway, um

Maybe he could do it because I think I've been told that he does affirm the historical

LDS doctrine No LDS doctrine on the doctrine of God so That that might be a possibility

I You know, okay, he was supposed to do a debate on Cameron Bertuzzi's channel

Against somebody on the Book of Mormon just recently, but he backed out So I'm not sure why that happened or what the background of that was.

I don't know But yeah that that's a possibility To do something like that, but yeah,

I'd like to say it happened because this is I've never seen a debate on topic I've never seen a debate on the

LDS priesthood and That would be a really good important topic that maybe we can pull off.

Nobody in channel has any idea either, huh? Okay Yep, that's it Hayden Carroll Hayden Carroll That might be a possibility and What I was saying, by the way soul scripture is not a silly topic

It's just silly topic to debate with a Mormon who will not define Who will not have a defined position that he is coming from?

So You don't debate soul of scripture with somebody who thinks the scriptura is still

Technically an open thing So if you if you believe in continuing revelation

See soul scripture is relevant when there is a scriptura that you can define and say this is sufficient for the people of God If anybody wants to see how

Mormonism is treated that read a book called a marvelous work and a wonder by Apostle LeGrand Richards, which

Wally Tote renamed to some Marvel more don't wonder. Oh I don't even know that.

Oh I probably wouldn't use that kind of terminology. Um anyways all through that book every time in LeGrand Richards would introduce a particular theological phrase particular theological teaching he'd say now that we didn't get this from the

Bible We got this from continuing revelation so I Think of Hayden Carroll is serious about wanting to do something on the issue of canon because that's his big thing

His big thing is he's a canon skeptic So he uses You know the same type of stuff the

Roman Catholics use and so the canon requires external authority Except that runs them up against the

Roman Catholics because the LDS Church has never accepted the Apocrypha.

So I'm not really sure how that works But the

LDS Church has to at least technically say their canon is not closed now that was not an issue 20 years ago

Every Mormon admitted that now you have solo scriptura Mormons. Well, I'm only gonna go with what's in our canonical scriptures

That's what that's what Jacob Hanson does and he's gonna do this. We'll get to it later on. He's gonna do it

He's gonna do his DNC 20 citation thing Which is one of the earliest sections so that it was in the

Book of Commandments It was section 24 of the Book of Commandments in 1833 1833 version Um, but it does not reflect

Joseph Smith's teachings at the end of his life so it ignores the evolution that the massive evolution that took place in between very convenient not very fair or Historically accurate but very convenient if you want to do that kind of thing

If you want to change Mormonism It's not difficult to do you just get to pick and choose what sources you're gonna you're gonna quote.

That's all So yeah, maybe we'll We'll see if Hayden Carroll wants to come up to Salt Lake City Next spring and defend the

LDS doctrine the priesthood. I sort of doubt it. I really do and If he really wants to debate

Jeff Durbin on a canon issue Then he needs to take a positive position and defend the LDS canon

If you can even do so can that even be done so today It's so painfully obvious that Joseph Smith's idea with the

DNC would today have thousands of sections But the church isn't doing that anymore and So What is what what's the canonical authority?

within Mormonism today It's it's changed And it's undefinable

So, you know If you know defend the canonicity of the book of Abraham You want to you want to really make a point?

Defend the canonicity of the book of Abraham That that should be enough to to drive anybody to distraction

So anyways, all right didn't get too far, but we got started you know reviewing this kind of stuff allows us to touch on a whole range of things and a bunch of stuff and Hopefully that's useful to folks in a broader spectrum than just looking at Mormonism or whatever else it might be

Okay. All right, that'll do it for this time one more one more time here in this studio and then

I'm looking forward to The next week being back on the road and back in the new unit

I've got some got some new pictures. So I'm gonna have hanging up in the in the background And I'll have to I'll have to do a little video of my

Dead Sea Scrolls Pictures that uh, I'm good. They aren't in the studio.

So but I I told you about him So I think I think they're gonna look pretty cool. I really do. I hope they look really cool

I hope they stay up there. That's that's the main thing I don't want to I'll pull in someplace and find them laying on the floor all smashed up.

So anyways, so next week on the road headed to Lubbock, Texas and Las Cruces, New Mexico a short trip, but Good opportunity to you know, the chances of me running across a storm aren't very good

Unfortunately be nice Just to just check things out before the long trip in July August We're looking at you know, rich mentioned to me.

I think on the program and I've now contacted folks haven't heard back But we're looking at being in Dolores again

And then right now I'm hoping to go up through Grand Junction the 70 being

Grand Junction for a few days and Then over to the Denver area My friends in Boulder still hoping we can work something out there and then down through Colorado Springs So we'll be in the

Springs at the end of it instead normally go in the Springs first and then go up to Denver This time we're sort of doing it.

What would that be clockwise? Yeah clockwise So we'll see how that works I'm not excited about pulling a 40 foot fifth wheel across I -70 through the

Rocky Mountains But that will will survive it other people do it

I see I see 75 year old guys pull it off And I realized that's only like a little over 10 years older than me

Hmm, okay. Anyway, so alright, that's what's heading our direction.