Abolition of Abortion with Sarah Cleveland, a Nationally Registered Sonographer

Mr. Smalley, do you believe that abortion is moral? Oh boy I'm glad I'm debating him instead of you

Welcome to apologetics live we're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for Eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport. Dr. Anthony Sylvester and pastor

Justin Pierce That's right, we are live

Anthony Justin, what do you think about that intro? Oh cool, man. I didn't know that Thank you.

Yeah, I got it got that we have a second version of it. We see which one you like better We have this one as well

Welcome to apologetics live to answer your questions meet your hosts from striving for Eternity ministries

Andrew Rappaport Dr. Anthony Sylvester and pastor Justin Pierce I like both of them

So we can use different ones at different times. So some new ones for us. That's cool

I told you I had a little surprise for but first thing before before we're gonna trigger Anthony before we trigger Anthony I what we do on this show if I say something wrong, we do corrections first thing

So let me start off with a correction from last week. I mixed up two people when

I talked about Alan Miracle. I Mentioned I hadn't met him that was actually Dustin Jermaine that I had the face -to -face conversation with so doesn't change the fact that I still will not be debating

Alan Miracle because of past examples, he's displayed of just not being honest it was stuff but so that won't change but Wanted to correct that so Anthony it's time to trigger you

But you know really quick before we bring our guest in but I don't know if you saw the the news That the

Democrats decided that they they don't want to release the findings of the origins of the coronavirus

It's it's probably because Anthony it's it really it came from a bat, right? Yeah, this is like the worst kept secret of all time.

I mean really this is so ridiculous right now How many geneticists? For People to understand this wasn't this was a lab -made virus emails,

I mean, this is um, absolutely unbelievable, but uh, I Don't want to go too far into this because we have a guest on that that I really want to be able to get to here soon

Did you guys see the Fouts get destroyed there in front of Rand Paul, yeah

Yeah Dr. Paul and dr Fauci that was very interesting one who actually practices as a doctor or did and the other one who never really practiced as a doctor

Just a researcher. Yeah. Yeah, so Drew says what color is the sky in your world?

So, yeah, so I think that some of the things what I should welcome everyone this is apologetics live

We jumped right in which we usually don't do but welcome to a projects live. You guys have any questions? We can answer any question you have about God and the

Bible you doubt that just join us any Thursday night 8 to 10 Eastern Time and go to apologetics live .com.

Click on the duck icon. That's how you join and We'll say hello to Cynthia here in Ohio.

She's saying hi from Ohio Okay, so Justin Justin Pierce by the way is already saying he's putting this

My back hurts I need a my pillow just realize Anthony and it's not you or I putting that out.

Okay, that's me. I Already have a my pillow. So yeah, but maybe we should do a go fund me for Justin to get it

Hey, I've got two of them. So I was just throwing out there Somebody put up here

Let's get context Somebody put up here. I am back and I said

I said You can't back In case he says your back hurts and that's what

I said, okay Anthony Anthony is back.

It is nice to have him back And so, you know, it's been probably what like almost two months

It's probably been closer to three months since I've yeah, I've been on it's it's been a long sabbatical

It's uh, yeah, there's just been a lot in life, you know between our travels together and in teaching and you know, but It's good to know.

He doesn't actually go back and listen So he doesn't he didn't get all of the insults and things on while he was gone

So that's that's that's probably a good thing. I just ignore it. Yeah So you did a revival?

Right. We did a revival in Colorado. That was fantastic No, so, okay, so you asked the question, yeah, what happened was the first night we did the revival we had

We had a great night. It was all rainy. It was crazy. It's a good amount of people showed up and Then the next morning the private landowner whose ranch we were hosting this on that anybody could come on to private landowner gets a visit from the sheriff who

Says that you were serving you with a cease -and -desist order and At that cease -and -desist order said you must stop immediately and not do this anymore.

So we spent some time talking with each other and Contacted a lawyer that was close by and basically, we said, you know what the show must go on and you know, we went out there the next night and and did it again and it turned out to be

Nothing so the police never came and we were able to have all four nights of the tent revival.

That was really cool Here's what's here's what's really cool about all this stuff, too Is we on Saturday morning?

We said, you know what? We're not getting all the people on the unbelievers We want to come to this tent revival here and you know pastor

Ralph Hall who put this on had told us all along that That this is a really hard area Witchcraft false religion

False Gospels and then just a lot of just unbelief a general unbelief around So we knew it was a harder area.

Anyway, so we decided on Saturday morning to go to the farmers market and do some open air preaching

I Drew the the short straw and I started it based on height.

It was probably based on height Actually, no, Austin Hetzer is a little bit shorter than me. So Really Well, I I started preaching and I kid you not

We had a faster response here than any homosexual parade I've ever preached at and a more vicious response really homosexual parade ever preached at and So within a minute to minute and a half we had people in our faces yelling at us screaming us people who are in their 70s

Yelling, they haven't moved this fast in the last 20 years their life and all of a sudden there They're shaking their fingers people grabbing at me

It was it was incredible and you know, I just kept preaching stock Mike Stockwell was there he couldn't you know, he's big guy

He could block two people And whatnot, but it was it was absolutely incredible we ended up preaching for maybe 15 to 17 minutes or I ended up preaching before the police came who were called on us and We the police basically said you can continue to preach.

You just can't use the Amplifier which infuriated the farmers market people even more because they were hoping we're gonna shut down completely

And so what the police officer said is you can go all throughout here. Actually if you want we were

Anywhere in these streets, even even though they have a permit It's public access. Yeah, we could have gone in the middle and preached just without a speaker

We decided not to we handed out tracks after that and it just talked to people But it showed exactly why this town needed a tent revival.

Yeah So we had we had a great time there well For folks by where there was a comment here for from KT Anthony needs pillows for teeth that he works on see, that would be a good idea if You know, he would come up with these little tooth pillows for the baby teeth.

You can give to kids when oh, there you go Yeah, so Just kind of set up Anthony before you introduce our guest

That the the intro that I played before the you know, that little clip with me and David Smalley That was a debate that Matt slick was debating

David Smalley on Morality whether the the Christian God is moral now

I had David knew what was coming because we had already talked about my views on the issue of abortion because his whole his whole argument was about that slavery and Slavery and he was trying to argue slavery is immoral and because slavery is immoral

God induces slavery that makes God immoral so the reason I asked a question about abortion is because if you were here two weeks ago when we we had pastor

Darren on talking about abolitionism, we talked about this and We we ended up saying how

My view is that this is an ownership issue. It's no different than slavery Different maybe in the sense that slavery doesn't always end in murder and this does and so David Smalley did not want

That's why he said he'd rather debate Matt slick than me because he knew I mean when I asked that question

There was three tables of atheists that went. Ooh Because they knew there's there really isn't an answer after after everything he had done in arguing for The issue of slavery being immoral and that atheism is is more moral than Christianity because it doesn't believe in slavery

I brought up the abortion issue and he knew because of our conversation before that that he had no answer for that because that that locked him in because the whole issue of Abortion is an ownership issue.

There is no difference between saying this is my body and this is my property And that's an argument folks that to use when people sit here and try to understand this

Why why you know, are we against it? I always try to argue with people I argue for slavery until they start to say it's it's wrong to say you own another human being and Once they get once you get them there you just ask what's the difference between this is my body and my and this is my property

There is none. Yes, that's right. So with that Anthony, I'm gonna let you introduce our guest

And I don't know if you if you're gonna do you want us to go Backstage while or not?

No, you guys can be here the whole time. Absolutely So so as an intro I want to share a little bit of my heart in this issue and why

I really have wanted to do this for a while and and it's because of this I Have been one of those

Christians for for quite some time who who was pro -life and I thought I was doing the right thing being pro -life

I Didn't understand the nuances and the problems with the pro -life movement versus what what the abolition movement is

But I also have to say this is that you know with some of the things we've seen with AHA over the years

In my mind it was a terrible organization overall Vast I can't say everybody but it seemed like most of the people in this movement were unchurched nomads who

Criticize Christians rather than actually Educate them properly and treat people with respect, you know watching picketing at churches and picketing at conferences of which we were at A number of them.

I just thought was not the right way to go And so it actually turned people like me against AHA and therefore against an abolitionist movement without ever having to or whatever wanting to look into what abolitionism actually was and So it's only been in the last couple of years that I've really started to understand this position a lot more

I've asked a lot of questions even very recently in terms of abolitionism and Anthony let me just let me butt in just say this is for anyone who's watching this today and hasn't seen two weeks ago with Pastor Darren, please go and watch that because we've had strong views on this show

Against AHA from years ago and we corrected that with you know There seems to have been changes that they've they've made things that we criticize that they're not doing anymore

And and and I'll just mention this is if there's anybody who's been against the movement

You have to recognize that people can change so don't don't you know, you always have to reevaluate

With new information and that's what we did and that's why before bringing our guest on tonight two weeks ago

We wanted to first address that issue That we've had so if you haven't seen that from two weeks ago

Go back and watch the episode on abolitionism from two weeks ago. Yeah, that was a good that was a good lead -in show for What we're gonna be doing tonight, so I very much appreciated that I listened to most of it

I couldn't be on that that week But um, so so our guest tonight Sarah Cleveland is somebody that I had the pleasure of meeting a little over a year ago now so she is a fellow freedom fighter here in Ohio, and I met her down at one of the

One of the events we were down at in Columbus in fighting against the lockdowns that were just starting here

That was where you wanted to walk around without masks Right. Yeah and with guns and with guns.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So We were down there and in protesting what was going on with our with our governor legislature and and whatnot

There were several politicians on her side lots of people on her side and and and that's where I got a chance to just meet

Sarah briefly and have have since then gotten to know her a Little bit more as times gone on and defy tyrants

Sir, I'm sure she I'm sure she's laughing the background on that but uh, so basically with Sarah I knew of her position of abolitionism and Very recently

I got to ask her a few questions because I've been tapped to speak against Abortion in in one of the other ministries

I speak for with my grid all increased training initiative And so I wanted to really button up arguments completely so that I knew how to answer every objection out there

In terms of abortion pro -life movement things and so I was able to ask Sarah some of those questions And and I thought that for our viewers

It would be a really cool thing to have her on the show With her expertise to be able to walk through all of these things

For everybody here to be able to talk about what abolitionism actually is and so for us to forget about the

AHA of old and and the bad connotations abolitionism and understand what abolitionism actually is today and And why

I believe every Christian needs to get behind The movement even if you don't agree with some of the people that have been in the movement in the past And so having said all that I'm gonna read

Sarah's little bio here as we as we bring her on Sarah Cleveland's a nationally registered sonographer since 2004

She has worked in one of Ohio's largest hospitals and small doctor's offices alike scanning thousands of patients

She speaks on the dangerous and unbiblical methods of the pro -life movement and how its regulatory bills fail practically in the clinical setting

Still allowing countless babies to die by the hands of their parents She's testified twice against the heartbeat bill in Ohio assisted with statewide campaigns at abolition a top priority on candidates platforms

Speaks at churches and homeschool groups and ministers on campuses and outside abortion mills. She's a

Christ follower former foster parent and advocate of massive DJ FS and CPS reform

Homeschool advocate mother of five wonderful children and wife to Erin. She currently resides in rural central,

Ohio So on that I would like to welcome on Sarah to the show. Yeah, I don't know

Um, are you guys seeing that her screen is all black? Yep. It's out It is out.

It was not out before she's but she's no we can see We hear you. Oh, you can hear me.

Yes, my camera's on Before we went live

Yeah, that is so strange I haven't changed anything on my screen.

So yeah, let me Can I somehow like log all the way off and come back on when you like me to try that?

You try that? Yeah, why don't why don't we hold the line until I pop back on here? All right, so sorry about that folks

Technology is what technology is. It's wonderful when it works and only when it works

You guys got it was Anthony's ball it was all Electronics don't do well in my hand unless it has to do with dental equipment.

So it's like she turned her camera off though And it's spinning. So maybe it's coming You know what

I did I closed my laptop my Chromebook screen and then I just flipped it back up and there we go

Okay, good. Yeah, right. So why that works, but so now folks know

I'm gonna put this banner up This is the you know, free the states org is the organization you're with And so, you know one if you could it's you know, let folks know about that as well when

Yeah, and and actually I know we have two hours I have a lot to talk about anybody knows me know I can talk about this all day long

Well, just so you know Sarah there is something called Anthony time on our show. Okay, so we've muted

Anthony now and We won't discuss this Okay, so Anthony time

Sarah is when when when I was moving and Anthony came in to host Every time

Anthony hosted because he can always talk a lot

Basically, what happens is he just goes over the two -hour mark and people start to ask for Anthony time

So he will he will let you go longer. So don't worry Time to wrap up, but this is this is good stuff and it's important stuff.

So sometimes it's hard to just I Drew finally everyone loves Anthony time. That is absolutely true.

Everyone except you and Justin You know the the only reason there's there's certain technical reasons that I don't like the

Anthony time there's a The two -hour window does prevent it from our backups of you know, we we actually have a because we anticipate that YouTube will eventually take us down like Twitter did and so We any videos that go over two hours do not get automatically synced to our till it's called it's library or Odyssey, which is a

Blockchain to with that so they can't take it down, which is nice. However, the the

It's not because I'm old Melissa Melissa says it's because Andrew's old. Yeah, the simple thing is

I Can rest assure I? Can't speak for Sarah, but I'm gonna rest assure that I may be the oldest one here

But I know that these others at least the other two guys Can't run a race with me Melissa, I do

I do a half marathon a day I'd like to see either one of them just do I have marathon actually no quarter marathon.

I'd like to see well, I grapple so I love that too.

Okay. Yeah You don't so see, you know either way. I'm you know, you may

I may I may look old Melissa, but I Also, I still I still roll with you know teenagers and 20 year olds and submit them so Yeah, well enough about you

Andrew, so yeah, you have a real guest on today So so Sarah, thank you for being on Can you tell some can you tell everyone kind of what your background is as a sonographer and kind of what you do and yes

Sure, I can do that and then I actually do want to go back to your introduction and Actually address the the

AHA thing if we can get around to that because I think that that's important to touch on I'll be happy To answer questions about that as well and people might be messaging in about that so it's always weird to kind of talk about myself because I am always like I'm I'm nobody right like I just I The Lord has shown me things and it's been one of those things where I'm like, man

If only people could see what I've seen and so I my role and what I've just tried to do just using

Facebook as a platform And more and more people have been following my page. I'm like, where are all these people coming from?

It's not because I'm asking for it It's just because people are a hundred great for this information and what we're talking about before The podcast even start when we were just talking amongst ourselves is you know

We can look at this whole situation with the lockdowns and tyranny all this kind of stuff be like all depressed and everything

But there's been a lot of good to come out of this and people are hungry to see like what else is there?

What else is my am I missing? What else have I been lied to about and a lot of the things like the pro -life movement have been running some scams guys

I don't know how to say it. It's not gospel based It's not really fundamentally Christian And so part of abolitionism is is exposing that and kind of contrasting historical and biblical

Abolitionism versus the secular pro -life movement over the last 48 years So for me how

I got involved in this is well my background first of all, you asked me what that was I'm an RDMS.

It's a registered diagnostic medical sonographer It's an ultrasound tech, but I don't just just take pictures like I'm registered in it nationally registered.

I have been since 2004 I've worked at a large Columbus Area Hospital for nine years Done many outpatients worked in the

ER. I've also worked at small doctors offices done contract work work I've trained volunteers at pregnancy centers.

So that's my my Professional I guess background and so with that I've seen a lot of things

I've seen how pro -life bills have failed babies I've seen how easily manipulated they are by the abortion industry and just kind of the games that have been played out and I was only planning on staying my at my one job for two years that's the contract is under and going along and doing some other things but I just felt led to be there for nine years because I I saw just so much and That's kind of like it in a nutshell

I have done other things I have been you know outside abortion Mills trying to rescue babies done campus ministry talk to people outside high schools you know the bus line downtown at the

Statehouse where people come off the bus and just hand out tracks and information and just been You know just a person for people to talk to and done outreach with other organizations

I'm a huge homeschool advocate I mean we can't say how bad the government is and how much we've been lied to And say how dangerous and then put our kids in that environment, you know

So that's another thing that I'm really passionate about And that all really goes into this attack on the family and attack on our children

And it can all really be tied in together. So I advocate for a lot of things and I mean,

I guess I could go on and on but those are a couple of things that I find really important Well, we got a question that came in from Chris Chris has a question.

He says is free the states essentially AHA rebranded minus the bad eschatology from Ecclesiology Ecclesiology, sorry so that That opens it up for you.

There we go. Okay So I I know the guys that there's a podcast called the liberator podcast

It's run by Russell Hunter James Silberman and Sam and He it's it's not and a short answer is it's not a rebrand.

It's actually a legit lobbying organization that works with legislatures and legislators like senators at the state level and local level to to further the movement of abolition and It does do outreach as well.

I want to clarify really what? AHA, let me turn off my phone here. What AHA was

I think people have a misunderstanding of what AHA was Of some people asked me Sam doesn't have a right last name

Of course, this is Sam Riley and actually Sam and James actually came out of the pro -life movement They were affiliated with a pro -life organization that supported the regulation of abortion and came out of that Even though they probably wouldn't say that that's ultimately what a lot of these organizations do they support iniquitous decrees and ungodly or Bills so they came out of that So free the states is not like associated with AHA because there was no

I know people say the AHA But AHA it stands for for people who don't know. It's a Facebook page.

It's called abolish human abortion We did have a website and that's still up abolish human abortion calm and you can look through it has the gospel message on It has a lot of great information just tons of really good stuff tons of great literature and Graphics that you can share and things like that.

So I encourage you guys to check that out, too so what the the gentleman here are talking about is years ago, there's

I Want to say like in fighting but just that at the start of abolitionism at the start of the recognition of abolitionism

There's a Facebook page called AHA came up and we have shirts. I'm actually wearing right now I don't know if you guys are gonna like this, but oh wait, wait, wait.

Uh -oh I let your picture slide through.

Okay. Here's on your picture It's just a symbol means abolish abolish human abortion is really what that it means

It's not like a slogan anything like that. It's not like I'm a member of some group. I'm just I am a Christian and I I Subscribe to the abolitionist ideology because it's a

Christian based view It doesn't have anything to do with somebody behaving badly or whatever. So when you're saying, you know

We need to get on board with abolitionism despite what these other people are doing. Isn't that what Christianity is like? There's some Christians that do stupid things and act like jerks sometimes

But we never say the ideology or the faith the religion the relationship with the Lord is null and void because Christians are misrepresenting

Right, so abolitionism is the same way and you may have disagreed with some people who call themselves abolitionism

But that doesn't negate the movement in the ideology Yeah, it's not a rebrand

Yeah, and I agree with you sir on that and that's why I that's what kind of why one of the reasons why I don't wanted to do this show is because AHA left a bad taste in a lot of Christians mouths.

Yeah, and it's soured the name abolitionism. Sadly. Yeah difference between there's a difference between AHA and abolitionism in the sense that I mean

AHA I know and Sarah you even kind of said it's it's a Facebook page It's it's an organization

I know they deny that but I actually had someone after the last show two weeks ago who who told me

I'm wrong on that It's just an ideology. Well, that sounds a lot like Antifa It's an actual organization that's incorporated, but they say they're an ideology

I have the documents from you know of their organization. I have their bylaws that they have you know where they said to use the logo you you had to be a member of you know, one of the the

Local groups that then is part of the the overarching group. And so it was an organization

I had so it was funny because when I someone was like you don't have that documentation So I released it and it was like you manufactured that There was definitely some things that we wrote up in conferences where we got together to say, okay when we say this

What do we mean? Of course we had to have like definitions when we use terms. You always have to define terms Yeah, so what do we mean by?

Church repent. What do we mean by abolitionism? What do we mean by these things? You know, what do we mean by even murder and all those things?

So of course there was things that were written down And we had conferences and things like that But there was no and I'm just speaking for my knowledge and what

I was involved in so that's all I can say and I do know most of most of these guys is And I don't know most abolitionism or abolitionists because abolitionism has spread so much

There's no way that I can know everybody and that's a wonderful thing, right? Yeah so there was abolitionist societies and basically the idea idea behind that was is just We didn't want it to be like event -driven like wait to do a mission, you know twice a year and I'll get together we wanted

You know Christians to get together with the specific Goal in mind to do outreach on this issue

Gospel centered evangelism talking about abortion and the evil that it is in our culture

So we had what's called abolitionist societies, but for me, I didn't make anybody sign. It was just like come with us

We would have signs and literature and gospel tracks and so for me, it was never really formal

But of course as an organization that organization Yeah, it means you have to be organized. So we were organized in what we wanted to do

Um, but I never made anybody pay me anything like that. It was just hey, we're christians babies are being murdered

We need to do something about this and one of the things I know there's some people that are saying You know in comments here saying, you know,

I would avoid aha, you know One of the things we dealt with two weeks ago and we want to move on from this uh, but we dealt with this two weeks ago, that's why we dealt with it two weeks ago so that when we have

You know sarah on we're not we're not focused on that But you know there was and you said infighting there was we dealt with that two weeks ago on the show if you need more

We we go through some of that the infighting We talked about that some of the things that had gone on And I had said then and i'll say now i'm glad that we have moved past the infighting the turf wars that I that I kind of saw them as yeah, we have moved on to okay.

Now. Let's actually deal with the issues Right, let's get down to it, right? Yeah, because you know abolitionism is is

Rooted in the idea of ending not not slowing down uh, but ending

Abortion now I I think it in a broader sense because I think it's ending of all human ownership

So it's not just it So for me that includes human trafficking, uh slavery of any kind where where there's an ownership component of it

That's all Included in that so You know Yeah, if I could just jump yeah So the ideology and i'm so glad that you guys have it on and you know looked into it like when dr

Sylvester said it's like, you know If you have a bad experience with somebody an ideology just turned off to it

But it's like those little things that keep saying well, I really need to look into this Like what what really are they saying what's going on here?

And so I I just really appreciate you guys. Um taking the time to answer um

Questions and look into things. I think that takes a lot. Um, and a lot of people have come forward I mean what the work that you know

Jeff durbin and john speed and bam and all this work and the groups that are just You know agreeing on the essentials and like what do we have to do and interviewing pro -life leaders and doing all these

Documentaries and interviews with the pro -life movement and actually getting down to the bottom of this has been just such a blessing.

Um, just reconciliation and all those things so, um the questions

I was asked before about you know, the pro -life movement and even I think there's misconceptions that so over the last 48 years that it's really

Done a lot to end abortion even though we have still a million babies a year being murdered in this country It really hasn't

I want to kind of dispel that misconception right now. It's not really even slowing down abortion. It's not it's regulating it

And we will never abolish something evil by regulating it What it's done is told people how when and where we can still murder babies, but not actually said stop murdering babies

And so we understand that this isn't a snap of our fingers thing. That's going to just automatically be done

We understand that but when you have legislation on the table SB 13 out of oklahoma is a perfect example

They had a ton of pro -life legislation That um, and one of the most popular ones right now is the heartbeat bill

The heartbeat bill is on the table some other regulatory bills and we have an abolition bill and what legislators are going to do

Um, our senators and our representatives are going to do they're always going to take the easy route, right? They're going to say well, how can

I please the most people and still considers myself pro -life and all this stuff If we say well we're going to support all of this do all of the plays

We're never going to get to abolition because they're going to support the weakest Bill that they have available to them

Most legislatures will do that And so until you have like a will before somewhere like senator joseph silk, for example to come up to say no more

We can't do this States have a right. That's why we have a website called free the states org states do have a constitutional

Right and obligation, um to run their own states We don't have to wait for like dc's pretty much a lost cause

Oh, I don't know if you guys agree with me on that But it's like states states are where it is We have the obligation and the duty to protect children within our own jurisdiction within our own states

And we do have that you can introduce a bill to become a law to criminalize

Abortion and what it does is it just it levels the playing field. It's equal protection. It's actually recognizing

All human beings as equal from the moment of conception which we know That they are god's word says that they are the medical community knows that they are um

Human beings even if they're small, even if they're in their mother's womb, we all know this the question now is um

For the for the proborts they say well, it's in my body. I'm going to do what I want They don't even say it's just a clump of cells anymore.

We're like we're beyond that right? We're beyond that if you go anybody goes outside an abortion facility or does evangelism and talks about this abortion issue it's a very um

Uh, I don't want to say it. They they recognize that they say yes. It's my third blanky blank abortion

I'm gonna do what I want I'll kill this baby if I want we're beyond that A lot of people going in to kill their babies have that attitude and they don't deny what they're doing um

And a lot of the evil politicians do too I mean, I was horrified a few years ago in new york when they were considering abortions what up to a week after birth

I'm, like you've got to be kidding me. We're not winning the pro -life movement They keep saying we're winning just send us more money or if we get this supreme court justice in or we do this or do that like you know how many times we've had a pro -life republican majority

It and at a state level or at a federal level or in the courts and we haven't abolished abortion and we have an overturn row

And bradley pierce if you know him, he's a lawyer out of texas. He does a brilliant. Um Rundowns of all this stuff of how every time you know

We have president bush and we had this You know president appoint this judge and this judge and they shuffle things around and nothing ever changes

We don't have to wait for roe versus wade to be overturned to protect babies in our states now. That's a misconception

That's been a failed strategy and we don't need that because it's an unconstitutional court opinion

It's not a law They don't make laws and we don't have to abide by it and this is what I said in my um

When I was testifying as an interested party against the heartbeat bill here in ohio two years ago I said that in my testimony when

I was asked about it. They're like well, what about roe? I'm like What about it? I mean We can't defy that we can and should just like they were in the abolitionists of slavery in that movement.

They defied Federal law all the time that I mean the fanatical christians were the ones that were doing the underground railroad

Road, they were the ones standing up against this stuff. It wasn't the majority of the churches even so you think about abolitionists now

And like the nominal kind of i'm pro -life, but I don't really know kind of churches like we seem fanatical but you know, what's crazy to me is that any christian or just could stand by and not be

Just horrified that like literal babies are actually being murdered. It's not like a hypothetical baby

Or whatever like these are literal bodies Being literally murdered by the thousands every day in this country and so when you talk about church repent and you talk about all those things that kind of like I don't really those tactics and Stuff and and again,

I respect that we don't have to get into that because you've addressed that But the heart of it was just the desperation and the pleading

To go to other christians to say help us Help us Right.

Yeah problems that we have is is we don't teach history anymore in school So so when we we say we're teaching about American history with slavery really what we're what they focus on is crt right critical racism theory

They're not really teaching history. Although now they say they don't teach critical race theory. They're teaching history Oh, so we just it's the same thing.

You're teaching the content doesn't change We're just going to change the label but because that got a negative term, right?

But but the reality is when you look at the history of of abolition in this country Uh, especially you saw some of it in england, but more so in this country

You saw some of the same things that we have now there were plenty of people that you you had christians who are slave owners and saying well, hey as long as as long as I treat my slave.

Well It's not a problem I'm, i'm going to be a good slave owner. I'm going to treat them, you know, well, but i'm still going to own them.

Well You still have that problem then you had those in the north that were saying well, we're totally we're against slavery

But I mean we can't do anything about it. Yeah, that's no different than the people that are saying well i'm against abortion

But I mean, hey, it's what what can we do about it? Yeah, and and then you had those that were actually, you know actively trying to say let's try to you know

Get slaves free them get them up to canada get them to freedom to fight

You know the the legislature to try to change the laws. This is what abolitionism is is

And and for people who think well, this is so crazy Well, the reality is that's what everyone thought when it was the slavery was the issue

They thought they thought it would never end. This is just the way it is. We'll never end it And um, yeah just to have the attitude

I mean i'm sure you have a different attitude if you're the one being enslaved you would hope that there would be some fanatical Christians trying to rescue you and do what it takes to get you out of Slavery, I mean, you know being the horrible things that happened

And um, it's just the word of god, you know These are image bearers and they should be free men and free women and free families

And so with uh the babies we hear excuses all day long about um, why you know of course,

I would never do it and yes, it is a killing of a baby, but I I know some christians that are even um too

Soft with like they won't call it even murder because they say it hurts people's feelings or I know Women who have had abortions and how would they feel about it?

And if we understand the gospel and we're really talking about sin And we know that jesus can forgive the sin of abortion.

Why would we not use these terms? Why would we not talk about this? And say that yes, it is murder We need to admit to that and talk about this and repent and jesus can forgive even that like this is such a huge opportunity

To talk to women and and men and everybody that's been involved in it because it's not just the women who've had them

It's people who've encouraged them people who have driven them this affects just about everything in our society in our life

It affects relationships down the road and we need to talk about it And we need to be using the right words and the right terminology when it comes to this

We have to look at these babies as equals if we knew that newborns were being murdered By the thousands by three thousand plus we don't even know how many really it is every day

I mean that should be all over the news. We should be you know upset To say the least about that.

So why aren't we if a six -month -old baby had his arms being torn apart? Or his skull crushed not to be graphic with my words

But this is what's happening or mutilated to death a six -month -old out of the womb Why aren't we equally as horrified that this is happening to babies six months old in the womb or six weeks old in the womb?

Maybe we need to do a heart check ourselves to say, you know, are we being ageist? Are we actually not?

Um treating them as equal do we see them as differently as different? And so once you start seeing these babies as equal to born babies and that there is no different I think that wakes a lot of people up You know, we need to make that connection that these are literal babies being killed yeah, you know,

I would have hoped that the delight in videos and uh, and that one I can't remember the doctor's name, but he was doing the

The faith on facebook. He was putting those videos out Their cartoon style but showing how the babies get dismembered

I believe that's it and showing those videos. I think I i've known about the evils of abortion for a long time but it was when some of those videos started coming out that it really

It really hit a whole lot harder for me You know just the reality that's that you got a baby being literally ripped and torn apart

And that there's the these people that are that are abortionists are championing this thing they're laughing about it

I mean, it's it's unbelievable. This is the point at which we're in This is what i'm saying when you get emails and I get I sign up for this stuff at email notifications on Pro -life groups and stuff like this.

We're winning We just need a hundred more dollars or put this judge in and stuff and this has been going on for like years and i'm like going ah

We're clearly not winning. It's what the pro -life movement has done has perpetuated it They'll say well look at these numbers, you know a higher right to life here.

I'm in ohio a higher right to life We'll say okay We passed this uh born alive infant protection act or we passed a 20 -week ban or something like that and they put

This out and we say that that's a win and so we have to break down what what is actually happening so then like the next year they'll say because I don't know if everybody knows it probably don't but you can go on every state's um department of health website and look at statistics

So abortion facilities are supposed to report their their numbers The age of the baby at the time of the death the age of the mother at the time of the abortion

The county in which the mother lived her ethnicity her level of education all of these numbers

I know it's on the how department of health website and it's on other states websites, too You can actually click on that and type in the word abortion and look at all these

You have to remember that these are the abortion facilities reporting these numbers. This is the best information that we have

It's probably under reported but when we're going to that and they pass this legislation to say

That uh a baby's 20 weeks and over, you know, there's this 20 -week abortion ban

Well, you hear the word ban and you think okay everything at 20 weeks done cut off People don't realize that there are exceptions as big as texas in this thing that there are holes

There's always there's always exceptions. So it really doesn't protect babies Um, so i'll just use this as an example and so if you look at one year and I I don't have it in front of me, but if you look at from One year to the next when this was supposedly when it was passed those numbers did go down a little bit so it was something like 800 one year and of babies after 20 weeks being murdered in ohio with the permission of Our legislature here and then like the next year went down to like 500 which you're like Yay, we saved 300 babies.

First of all that just proves it's not a ban because it wasn't zero, right? We still have hundreds of babies after that time that were being murdered

And so it went down you're like well, we saved 300 babies if we just save one and that it's worth it But here's the problem with this.

It's broken down by categories By by age, for example, so like between 20 and 22 weeks or 22 and 25 weeks

When we went down like 300 numbers, what what happened for the 17 to 19 week age bracket?

It went up They just did it a week sooner. We didn't save any babies. We just they just did a week sooner

They just got in there plus here's another thing as so an ultrasound tech it ultrasound is highly

Um, it's operator dependent so you can manipulate it very very easily So if you have your calipers that are measuring around the baby's belly

Hold on one second. Yeah You're I have like all these questions prepared and you're just like going right through Okay, which is great

Real me in. Yeah, but I I want to reel you in on this because this is this is an important concept, right?

Um, and i'm gonna i'm gonna lay a quick story out for you My wife and I um and and sons stayed with some friends in florida back in in march and uh christian christian folks older christian folks and uh, she is uh, she's worked with with the anti -abortion industry and in christianity and uh,

She's really proud of the work that they've done with their um, traveling ultrasound units

Yeah, we know about the problems with them that's kind of what I what I wanted to lay out because Because they're chanting they're saying we're we're saving all kinds of babies with these ultrasounds and we we love the idea of heartbeat bills

And and all this kind of stuff and so my wife and I knew better at that point and so my wife sent her a uh, a video of jeff durbin speaking against this stuff and after that she

Stopped talking to us. Oh, no but uh So I I want you to I want you to now speak to to this in why is it that heartbeat bills don't actually work?

Why is it these ultrasound clinics are highly problematic, you know when when we're dumping all this kind of money into into these

Ultrasounds that are traveling around. I know you have big problems with it and legitimate reasons Why and so I think people need to hear this.

Yeah, okay, so um I i'm not against ultrasound.

First of all, I want to make that clear ultrasound is a tool. I love it I am an ultrasound tech it can

Use be used to save lives. This is this is the analogy that I use it's like a gun. It's a tool, right?

It's just it just depending on who the operator is and what it's going to be used for A gun is a tool it can be used to save a life protect a life in the hands of somebody good

Honest life affirming wants to protect people. It's a wonderful thing to have in the hands of a bad guy

It's a terrible thing to have they will use it to murder and do horrible things with it An ultrasound machine is the exact same way

You put it in the hands of somebody like your friend who may be a very very good person who has Great intentions and she would of course use that machine

In an effort to show the humanity of the baby and do all these things and show the profile and all these wonderful things

That I get to do that's awesome and use it to save babies a lot of these women who go into pregnancy centers are not necessarily um, they're already soft to maybe saving their baby and then it's not the same as going inside an abortion clinic because An abortion clinic every single abortion clinic already has an ultrasound machine

In the facility, right? It already has an ultrasound machine in the side of the facility. They're not using it to save babies

They're you it's a tool. Let's like that gun. It's in the hands of murderers so you have an ultrasound machine that it's in the hands of people who are going to use it to do harm and and Bring forth death.

So the machine isn't the issue. It's the operator Who are we entrusting to run this ultrasound machine when we pass heartbeat bills and ultrasound laws and things like that You cannot compare these mobile units who are generally christian people really trying to help and doing good

And i'm not against that because i've actually done some limited training For some nurses and some other volunteers to do some limited scanning and it is limited but they do use them to save lives

That's not the same as putting an ultrasound machine into the hands of these people inside abortion clinics because it is operator dependent

They're not going to show the baby The same way that I would right they're not going to show the profile of the baby or the human the baby

A lot of these bills are written. So it just says pregnancy the woman has to be offered to show to see the screen

And they can make the screen look like anything who's to say that they're even showing them the baby or the profile Lots of times and i've known this

I can tell you specific things that i've witnessed inside the hospital I worked at where women have gone to get ultrasounds at abortion mills and then they've had complications

They've come into the er and then they had me as an ultrasound tech and if that's not like You know just providence.

I don't know what is but then i've been able to Um show them the truth and save babies in that way

But you can manipulate that ultrasound image to look like anything And so and but it's still fulfilling the pro -life legislation

They'll say you have to look image the fetus or look at the pregnancy Well, you can image the placenta and that's part of the pregnancy

You can do a cross -section of a of a leg and have it look like a little dot on the screen and it looks like nothing

But yet you're still imaging the baby And so you're fulfilling that pro -life legislation, but being sneaky about it, you know

It's just so easy to get around all this legislation and still fulfill it and still obey it and it's not saving babies so yeah, and to be clear,

I mean, I think one of the things you had said is is that In a heartbeat bill, the idea is that there has to be a heartbeat

But yet an ultrasound tech can just show parts of the baby and say, oh, I don't see a heartbeat.

You're okay easy easy Oh, yeah, and so the heartbeat bill there's there's a lot to that too And and like I said there there's that's the popular thing right now.

And then what's it advertised to do? It's advertised to save babies like 95 % of all abortions just supposed to stop under the heartbeat bill

That's what it's been advertised to do And I I look at other people's testimonies and I see these email things and I just and that's why on my facebook page

If anybody wants to find me I've made lots of videos explaining it going down through These bills line by line and showing people look this doesn't even criminalize abortion

First of all, it's saying that it's going to make some abortions illegal, but it doesn't even criminalize it

So and maybe that's something maybe I don't want to get off to the tangent right now We can come back to there's no criminalization part to it

The worst that can happen i'll talk about the heartbeat bill here in ohio If um if this actually went into effect which actually never went into effect here in the state

And it's never gone into effect in any of the other states either by the way Um, just as many babies are being murdered today as they were a year ago and two years ago

But there's no criminality to it. You go and murder a baby. It wasn't a murder charge So the only person that was actually punished under these bills is the hired hitman the hired middleman

Which would be the abortionist and the worst that can happen to him is a fine and he gets a fifth degree felony Well people hear the word felony and they say well that sounds really bad.

I don't want to be a felon Just look up what a fifth degree felony is. It's like smoking weed or writing a bad check There's no equal justice.

There's no equal protection in these bills It's not like he's in jail for murdering a baby, which he just did So it's not um, that's one problem with the heartbeat bill

It's not uh, there's no real justice in it and there's exceptions in it. There's tons of exceptions

I just encourage your viewers to really read these bills and not just listen to the talking points

Look at a bill. They're not actually very hard to understand and they're generally not very long It lays it out right there

Of the babies that are still allowed to be murdered and the exceptions all you have to do on most of these bills is have two Abortionists agree that the abortion needs to be performed and sure enough two physicians have agreed

Even if they're abortionists That it needs to be done with the health of the mother And those are those are still in there and a lot of these bills have actually

Never consulted an ultrasound tech It's essentially an ultrasound bill the heartbeat bills are because how are you determining the heartbeat?

It's with an ultrasound machine yet They've never consulted me They've never consulted any other ultrasound techs that i've heard of as as much as i've been talking about this the last couple years

I don't know who's writing this Ultrasound legislation without actually talking to an rdms who actually is registered and knows what it is

They're writing in a trans abdominal scans only which you can only see babies later on in pregnancy You won't ever even see that at six weeks in most women so they

The bill is just so poorly written that it won't save any babies let alone 95 percent of them

I even have a brochure from ohio right to life that stated at their legislative day, uh banquet two years ago

To say that they understand that it probably it won't save babies all the way up through the first trimester

Because of the way it's written it was a trans abdominal Which means just on top of the belly not an internal scan where we can see these tiny babies up close

It was written in there. So, um It essentially allowed wiggle room for all first trimester babies to be aborted which 87 percent of all abortions are in the first trimester

So how is it going to save 95 percent of all babies if it's allowing 87 percent of them?

In the first trimester plus all the other exceptions after the first trimester The math doesn't even make sense

Are you tracking me? Does that make sense? Absolutely. Okay. I want to clarify a statistic you just threw out there 87 percent of abortions occur in the first trimester is is are you including?

like abortification No I'm, not including that that number just comes from actually the goop goop monster.

I always mess up that word It's the pro abortion website that um puts out all the statistics for the whole year the annual statistics the goop moxter institute

It's like some weird name. Um, if you're familiar with that that that number is like the national

Um kind of database for getting um abortion information Um, it's about it's about 85 7 percent.

So just by that statistics That statistic heartbeat bills don't matter anyway, because these are all being done so early

In the process. Yeah, we yeah, first of all, you're trusting murder to tell the truth, right? You're not asking me to do the ultrasound trusting murder to tell the truth and ultrasound is really highly it's not regulated

So actually you don't have to be I think people think that it's like a legit really really nice machine that you see in hospitals

And it's the same way as in in the abortion facility You can have the worst oldest ultrasound machine and hardly see anything

You can have somebody who's not registered. You could have the secretary in the side the abortion facility try to scan

You know the baby it doesn't have to be a nurse It doesn't have to be an ultrasound tech or even a doctor to scan it

It can be anybody to scan and say oops. I tried I did an ultrasound take a poor picture a poor image

Put that in the woman's file So like if the health department would ever come along and try to audit an abortion facility

Which they don't really even do but i'm saying if they would how would they even know they aborted a baby anyways?

There's no hard drive. We're not saving any of this information to somehow do checks and balances to say

Hey, where's the full study of that pregnancy? It's gone once that baby's murdered and dead How do we even know how do we know how old the baby is?

We have maybe two poor images printed off from the ultrasound machine done from the secretary or done from somebody who doesn't know what they're doing on an old machine put it in someone's chart in a back file and it's a piece of the placenta or cross section of an image and There's just there's no way to hold anybody accountable in these bills

What we need to do is just have a bill of total abolition criminalize it treat these babies as equal to born babies and shut down Just shut down these hell holes shut down every every procedure that we allow now

Even the pills that mothers take inside their homes, which is the most popular way to abort now believe it or not

They're aborting now inside their homes. It's like an ru486. Yes, and it's going yes through the first trimester so a way to get around that is well

Um, you know, so if we have a bill that just criminalizes the abortionist who does the surgical procedure And that's written into all of these bills.

What do they do to get around it? They're going to prescribe them the pills so that now there is no middleman So now the mother is the active participant taking the poison pills and aborting her baby at home

Well when you have these bills that are written in There's no criminalization to the mothers. They are literally written into the bills to say that they cannot be they held liable or accountable for those crimes

Then we just move all the abortions at home again, and then nobody can ever be charged with it Yeah, so so just to make things clear for everybody here an abolitionist position

Is that the baby is a is a human being from the time of conception, right?

and that's Any type of abortion after that is is absolute murder And because it's murder it should be criminalized

Both against the abortionist as well as the female and maybe even the male that's enticing her to anybody anybody's involved in it if we're taking a toddler and we had a

A driver the mother of that toddler Hiring a hitman to do some horrible things to that child and we have a driver who took her there

We had people who gave her money to go and do that with their accomplices, right? We just think of born born babies

So if we have a situation where they're doing that to a five month old in utero baby, we have a driver

We have accomplices. We have people giving money. There's a whole network of people Nobody should be exempt from being held accountable for their role in that baby's death

So what we're saying is we're not saying death penalty for everybody or anything like that What we're saying is have it be equal justice and equal protection for these babies

So if there would be a charge for a mother doing um something like that to a newborn baby

Have it just be equal and treat these babies equally. That's all we're saying Well, and this is this is exactly what people said when it came to the slavery issue

You don't just go after the slave owner. You go after the person that kidnapped them You go after the person that that brought them, you know over on ships you

Shut it down. This is this and reason I want people to see that is We now are in a society where people will see the issue of slavery

And they can see oh, yes. Yes, that's wrong. And what the abolitionists did there is good Yeah, but with this issue that they've gotten comfortable with They don't see the need for that and yet that's exactly what the abolitionists

A century plus ago dealt with as well. There's no difference here They dealt with people that were making the same excuses people would make today for abortion

Yeah, it's it's very parallel. It's very very much the same We would have just like you said earlier we have christians or we have people that would say well

I would never do that myself But that's somebody else's business, you know, they're slave their property their business.

I'm not going to interfere You know if they have an abortion I disagree with it. I think it's really wrong and bad I never would be a part of it, but it's somebody else's business

And it's not it is all of our business. We're supposed to love our neighbor as herself if our neighbor is being killed

Defenseless babies at least me and you we can fight back right? These are babies We have to keep reminding ourself of this and um, you know that blood goes somewhere

It's innocent blood it seeps into our ground and we're seeing the fruit of some of that um, you know the blood cries out and We got to get this under control

We're not going to be able to save our state if we can't even protect babies You know most states that i'm aware of have have laws if you kill a pregnant a pregnant female

That you could be charged with double murder double homicide in new york when they pass that law and there's no protection for those

Yeah so I mean They realized what was happening, right?

They were suddenly Forced to have to deal with oh wait if we do this as double murder, we're basically admitting that Abortion is murder and that's that's why they did that Which is the insanity of our culture and shows you how darkened our culture is

That here when it's right in front of their face and they should recognize it You go.

Okay. What are they going to do? They go. Oh, you know what? Uh, let's just ignore what's right in front of our face

And we're gonna we're gonna ease laws to make it worse for people

Because we want to hold to our cash cow and that's really what it comes down to it's a cash cow Okay Folks that don't understand the abortion industry, right?

All that is is a is a way democrats get funding right You the appeal get money for that and then it gets right back to them

But republicans get funding for this too Like I said before they put this out there vote for me i'm pro -life

But then they get in there. They don't actually do anything to actually stop the slaughter And it's it is a big money grab.

Yeah, and It's been going on now and they keep saying well, it's a step in the right direction or you know

You just can't do it all at once. I'm like how long you've been saying this literally almost five decades later and What how much does it take to say?

Hey, we're not These methods are not working here people and every day that we delay this more and more babies die

So the pro -life movement has been prolonging it and almost perpetuating it because if we had said this

Decades ago and just put an end to it. We wouldn't have it instead. It's just regulated Okay, so so let's this was kind of my next topic to bring up.

Anyway, so let's talk about the pro -life movement There's atrocities in the pro -life movement and and I would have hoped that when um when abby johnson got a big stage and Started making many millions of dollars off of her movie and her stage appearances

That's and and that she didn't want to criminalize Abortion against criminalization. Yeah, she's a grandson.

She's against a lot of things. I think that she should be against right? But so I think she's roman catholic not christian a lot of people don't

That's the next set of topics here The pro -life movement is essentially run by the catholic church

I agree. I agree sarah. I just want to point out that i'm being very good tonight and keeping my mouth shut

So so I mean I usually start talking and I never stop. So i'm just going to be pointed out. Oh, you're fine

Yeah, well, listen, listen, there's a reason we have to keep him in the back though What would happen what would happen sarah is he would if we let him go he would end up putting people to sleep

I would talk almost as long as andrew. That's why they would end up needing to get my pillow.

So now it's a good time to I've got two they're great.

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I go to bed and I just get up early Oh, I kid you not andrew's like I'm going to bed and he's out in a second

It literally that is I i'm honest. It's all it takes. He's out in a second and he's he's

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Yeah, do you notice who was doing all the talking just now? Yeah Well, I'll let you do the promo code, you know

Hey, I tried to throw it in there, but you wouldn't let me just start talking So hey, I'm gonna ask a question.

I do want to ask a question Um, you know a lot of people are on here talking about you know

The the fact that you know that we believe in being pro -life That that we want to stand for life um, a lot of times there's a connotation here that that people are saying

If you're if you're pro -life you're part of the bad bad group and part of the bad movement And I know that's not what you're saying, you know

I understand that's not what you're saying, right? But you know for for those people that are in the chat and they're sitting there talking on the side and whatnot um

If if you're if you're pro -choice You're in sin and you're going to have to answer to god.

So let's just put it out there if you're pro -life uh, you may not be a part of the

The the wickedness of the pro -life movement because what she's talking about is the fact that there are a lot of people that are that are

Involved in the pro -life movement that love the money more than ending the abortion.

That's yes. Thank you I appreciate that. Yes. I want to clarify that so when I say You know the pro -life movement i'm talking about the the people who are running the show, right?

The people the organizational top tiers who are are running this who are directing

Uh what people should do i'm not talking about your average pro -lifer, you know that you mean on the street and they call themselves pro -life

I'm not bashing them at all. You know, we're not pro -deaths. Of course We're pro -life, but we're defining our terms even the term pro -life when you talk to people even you know on facebook

I have other conversations It's um, well, you can't be pro -life. Um, if you support the death penalty, you can't be support pro -life if you don't um,

Do foster care all this kind of stuff and it's like this general big term And so it's almost to a lot of people lost this meaning or it's like what does pro -life even mean?

Anyway, so some people just say i'm an anti -abortion and just talk about that issue and we can talk about those other ones, too but so I say i'm an abolitionist is very very specific to abolishing abortion and it's very specific to An ideology and movement and it's gospel centered.

So i'm not saying that You know anybody who identifies as pro -life is a bad guy or anything like that But I am saying look into the actual movement and the direction that um the organization on top and I can list organizations that Any pro -life organization really just look at their facebook page or look at their emails or look what they're putting on on life site news

And all that kind of stuff look what they're actually celebrating as a win And look at it through different eyes and humble yourself to say is this really a win?

What what are they saying? And what are they doing? Has this actually ended abortion has this established equal protection and are we being god?

The lord is very very clear in scripture about how we're supposed to treat children What we're supposed to do in protecting them and protecting and loving our neighbor

He's very clear on this and this is a loving your neighbor issue We're allowing by regulating abortion babies to to be legally

Protected legally murdered in our jurisdiction. We have accountability for that We cannot support these laws and these legislators and these lobbyists

And these organizations that are promoting such things and so I am talking about the movement itself

And not your average pro -lifer that just identifies. I do think it's important however, i'll just say this we go on to the the next question, but um,

I identified I don't identify identify I hate the to say that because that's kind of its own thing, but I identify as an abolitionist because I'm, not part of the pro -life movement

Um, I think it's good to differentiate the different movements and so I don't necessarily consider myself a pro -lifer

I consider myself a christian, of course first and because i'm a christian i'm an abolitionist i'm, not a part of a movement that's going to link arms with atheists and buddhists and all these other

Religions in an effort to fight abortion when it's like sinking sand. They don't even have the foundation to fight

Abortion in the pro -life movement. So why would I be linking my arms to failed methods and strategy?

And the lord isn't with that Yep. Amen So, okay.

So just to be clear um You normally wouldn't have an issue with somebody identifying as pro -life

But the problem is is that when you say pro -life It it seems to automatically associate you with the pro -life movement

Which is majorly problematic right, so and that's kind of struggle i've had and um, you know, as I said earlier on the show i've i've

I understand the abolitionist movement now. I would never have called myself an abolitionist three four years ago

But today I have to because I understand the problems in the pro -life movement And uh, and so, you know, even my own terminology has to is changing for for that very reason

I want to be associated with it that question that just popped up. Can you read that one real quick? I talk about that real

Who put it up there? There you go Can I read that? Yes for kt and jesus

I do believe that when lives are saved that it is positive even though we want to end it completely

It to end completely All right, and I get that. Okay. Here's here's the tricky part

Here's what we have to understand and I talked about this a little bit earlier. So let me elaborate. This is would be called incrementalism

Incrementalism or I like the I use the term Regulationism actually

I think is more accurate accurate because abolition Isn't just going to happen overnight.

It's not going to happen because i'm talking about abolition now It's not going to happen tomorrow or even if there's a thousand of me. It's not going to happen tomorrow

We're going to demand abolition the entire time and be consistent and persistent in that message

And along the way it will probably happen incrementally, but i'm not asking for increments and i'm not asking

For regulationism It may happen that way just because that's the way our judicial judicial system and the way our culture is it may happen in increments

But i'm not saying Um that I want to compromise or it to happen in increments if that makes sense

Regulationism is what's been happening At the state level right now and um so The fact that you know babies and this is what

I hear and it's a legitimate like question and and people are confused about that They think the pro -life laws that we have now

Have been Saving a bunch of babies. So it's better than nothing, right? You hear that? Well, it's better than nothing and at least we can save a thousand babies

I can't save a million, but at least I can save a thousand or I can save ten thousand and all that But here's the deal

So just say that we have a bill that the numbers did go down the following year

And and it's attributed to a pro -life piece of legislation or something like that the bill You know, it reduced abortion in the state by like 10 or something you say well we saved that 10

We saved some babies. It's a good thing But here it is. It's ingraining into society that this is still acceptable

It's ingraining in society that this is something that's never going to go away it causes people to be Complacent and apathetic and think that we're winning this war of abolition and to actually end it when really it's just prolonging it so every year that we've put up a new law that has

You know chipped away here and then like the numbers go up because they find a new method or a new way to do

Abortions and they go up the next year. It's not actually like there's no steady decline of all these abortions going down Right.

There's a graph. It just kind of goes up and down. So yeah, you could say well we just saved these babies this next year

Well, we've been saying that again for 48 years And we we've saved some babies.

Well, it's prolonged it To the fact that now it's year 2021 And we still have a million babies a year.

So really for the the babies that we saved five years ago It's really sacrificed all the babies in the years after that Because now we continue to still have abortion because it's been regulated

When all these babies the last five years could have been saved if we actually just demanded and got abolition five years ago

Yeah, I you know, I love how you stated that that's uh that you are all you are You are all about being an abolitionist but recognize that there's going to be incrementally.

It's going to happen So we don't ask for that We don't say hey some of these babies we want to save and we're going to go back for these no

It's like moses. What did he do when he went to pharaoh when he when pharaoh told him? No, the first time did he say okay? I'm going to go back the second time and just ask for the kids under age five this time

Am I just going to go ask for the women this time? He didn't come back and like start making deals, right?

He said no he was persistent consistent with his message obeyed the lord and said no let my people go all of them

This is wicked Let us go And so that's what we're doing with the babies. Yeah, that was a great way to state it.

So thank you for that It changes my language now, too Melissa here says I guess i'm really changing my mind here because saving some is not good enough

We need to raise the bar and stop settling. Amen. And that's really the issue, right? Is that is that a true incrementalism or regulationism as you said is is essentially settling for for something rather than Us being persistent in what we need to accomplish.

Yeah, so that's great Um, there's a question that came in is the trigger bill in texas more pro -life political pandering.

Oh for sure For sure. So what is the trigger bill for those who don't know? So trigger bill is um,

I know I think I think it was lifesite news That was a that's a very popular thing to get all your pro -life news from whatever

I know one of the headlines the other day was a governor abbott out in texas Uh bans all abortion in texas and everybody is you know, people look at that look at the headline go

Wow abortion's ban in texas fantastic. Oh, man, this is fantastic. This is great And then you read the article says if and when roe versus wade is overturned

It's a trigger bill. So it's a bill saying if roe versus wade is overturned, which I I don't think it's ever gonna be a fat chance.

It's ever gonna be and again, we don't need it to be overturned but it's a bill to say if the supreme court if that Judicial god that some people put up as like waiting for these justices to say finally get permission from these men

And women to actually protect babies once they say we can protect babies then a we're going to protect babies in texas

We're going to wait on these guys though But look at me i'm going to pat myself on the back And say that when they say we can we will and even if that would even happen

The supreme court roe versus wade is overturned and it goes kicks it back to texas These bills still aren't criminalizing abortion.

I don't understand how somebody can advertise these bills and saying hey We're going to make abortion illegal, but not make it criminal.

What kind of bill that doesn't even make sense How can a bill make something illegal and not criminalize the people doing the act?

There's no like it'd be like robbing banks would be illegal, but not criminalizing somebody then if you go do it

Nothing happens to you. Okay, so it's not worth the paper. It's written on Yeah, that's

Yeah, absolutely when you start breaking this stuff down just like it's like crazy like when you start looking at it from a different perspective and dig a little deeper instead of the

Superficial like the headlines and you really take a step back and just be humble enough to say Man, we really haven't been doing what we need to be doing

As a society and particularly as christians we have the truth on our side The lord has already told us what we're supposed to be doing with this issue.

We need to actually obey him We can't pretend that we're smarter than god and say well we're going to end abortion our way

And just write these bills and make exceptions and be really you know heartbeat bills and ultrasound bills

They sound really good and it sounds smart to Our mind as a human being maybe as a man

As a human being to say this is a way to end abortion. Well, it's not Because we're trying to outsmart the lord in many of these ways.

Well that how's that going to turn out for us? He just says don't murder thou shall not murder and he talks about justice and establishing

Um, you know just protecting children millstone comes to mind Um, there's gonna be a lot of millstones one thing that kt brings up here is

That the supreme court they often shoot down Any law that we try to you know bring up, right?

And so, you know one thing I mean she actually says here that uh in her case

She says I believe in both saving some and saving all and I think that's what um that you're trying to get at is is is that is that we're never settling, you know, the settling is what the

The movement does that is involved with let's make the money out of this That's that I mean,

I mean, I know I know there are some pastors that and I say pastors loosely Using the term loosely there are some pastors that are on some of these uh, pro -life boards

That are there for 20 and 30 years and 40 years They've got you know a retirement package.

They have a whole system set up. They don't want to actually stop it They want to they want to slow it down And and continue to get the funding and continue working on those things so that so that their career can keep going

And and that's that's highly different that is settling Now what what kt is talking about here is the fact that I think everybody is talking the same language

But make sure we don't you know talk past one another is I think what she's talking about is in working to Establish these laws

You know, like like she said some have shut down abortion clinics I know of one abortion clinic that was shut down praise god because the laws were were forced, you know, they were pushed and they were

Preached and taught and they were worked for for so long to get that abortion clinic shut down And it was uh, it was actually code violation laws

To try to get them shut down because they were so so bad and it did get them shut down Uh in one case, I don't know about all of them, but but uh,

I think that's what she's getting at Yeah, and I get that and I want to make sure that I articulate this well because here you cannot regulate abortion into abolition

Okay They they are opposed to each other if you write a law that's saying um, we're going to protect babies after 20 weeks

And or a bill a down syndrome bill which by the way saves zero babies with down syndrome because all you don't have to I think maybe people don't understand what it's like going in abortion facility

You know, you don't actually have to give a reason why you're having an abortion, right? A woman can go in and just it's they just it's an elective procedure.

I don't have to explain to you My boyfriend left me. I just don't want to or whatever. I just don't want to be pregnant You don't have to give a reason so like a down syndrome bill when they say

Um, just don't say that you're aborting the baby because the baby has down syndrome Just don't say that and then you can abort your baby with down syndrome.

So these laws these regulate they're not saving Some so this ideology and it's it's kind of like, um, you have to detox from that What's that?

So I can't so it's it's what you're talking about here. I just typed in preterm which is the major abortion uh clinic up here in the club in ohio area that um

That's uh, i've been at several times to to preach. Um, others go there much more regularly than I do

Um, but here's the pop -up that shows up on the screen as soon as you type in their website

Before you get to the website this pop -up comes up. It says abortion is still legal in ohio in big words

And then it says yes, it is legal in ohio to get an abortion for any reason underlined Under a new ohio law

We cannot provide an abortion if we know that the reason is in whole or in part because of a fetal down syndrome diagnosis

Pre -term is open and seeing patients. Please call us with any questions or concerns. I mean They they even know this is a joke the pro boards are like whatever

Like there's those silly pro -lifers putting these laws up there again. It's a political football. Like you said, it's funding

Well, i'm going to fight the pro -lifers I'm going to fight the pro -choicers and we just need to get it together and say no more of this stuff

They even advertise it like in her face. They're showing all their cards They're agreeing with what i'm saying

They know that babies can be aborted all the way through nine months of pregnancy for any reason down syndrome or not

Gender that's the baby's a different gender than the mom. It doesn't matter so they

Know that and they admit to that and I just want to point out that that Mill is called pre -term that just always gets me the name of these facilities like I know

They're just rubbing in our face at this point. And so what are christians doing? I mean, we're responsible for this

We're responsible even though we would never participate in abortion. We're responsible for our actions Uh towards it and what are we doing about it?

And so I can't know what I know and Have seen what i've seen and do nothing about it.

I feel that weight And I am obligated and convicted to share this information and um you know

Love or hate other abolitionists when they go to to plead with people um And we we've done pretty good in our communication and everything

But we really do see this as the evil of which it is and babies are being murdered So when we go to plead with other pastors and churches, you know, there is a sense of urgency here you know there is um

And uh, this is a this is like a legit podcast here So i'm not gonna cry but like if I actually stop to think about this, it's it's it's heavy, right?

and so We have to see these babies as real babies who have been abandoned by society have been abandoned by people who claim to be pro -life

Who can write bills to protect them and they don't and they're part they're abandoned by their own parents

Like these are the ultimate orphans in our society And their bodies are being dumped in biohazard bins or flushed down the toilet or put in incinerators

And we're writing laws and patting ourselves on the back To say well as long as the baby has a proper burial after it's been murdered

Which is one of the the new pro -life laws here in ohio that they touted, you know as a win That they had like this cremation act or whatever that it didn't stop abortion

Didn't say you couldn't have an abortion, but after you do it Let's just make sure that they're they're buried in a more humane manner and we say that's a win

And it's wicked And we we cannot be getting behind this legislation anymore.

This is not saving lives It's perpetuating it in our culture It's treating it as less than murder as the evil of which it is and it's just making people

Who think that maybe we are winning? So it's giving them that false sense of security or the false sense of illusion that that we're winning this movement somehow of saving babies

When we're not so it it's it's multifaceted Right, so it's it's taking good attended people who are your average pro -lifer and it's even taking advantage of them um and And that's just really sad because when a lot of people hear this message

They they start getting it like man, you're right. You're like we really have to do this We've kind of been taken for a ride and we need to demand more of our

You know what we're doing as a church talk to our pastor about this not support these bills You know, maybe go to the state house and listen to this legislation that's being proposed

You know anybody can go when a pro -life piece of legislation or an abolition bill is presented It's open to the public and you can go and have your whatever your state allows what is three minutes is five minutes here in Ohio and give your testimony and give your um, you know feelings on the bill

More people need to be involved in demanding better of our lawmakers Yeah, so I wanted to read this here from humbled clay and that's uh

We should be as outraged with abortion as we would be if they legalized murdering one -year -olds Right and absolutely correct and we're gonna get back to this in just a moment because i've got my next line of uh, questioning here, but um my interrogation

This is a great show so far i'm absolutely loving this Okay, so so chris, um put myself.

I don't know how I put myself back on the screen. Andrew knows how to do this Thank you, okay, so So chris writes this and I think

I can answer this. Um As well what good articles or books or lectures that discuss why scotus supreme court united states decisions aren't law.

Would you recommend? Let me tell you what I would recommend um any 12th grade government book that is taught across the country because if we understand government we understand that um

Our our executive branch enforces laws our legislative branch makes the laws and judicial branch is supposed to interpret the laws

They judicial branch is not to be making laws and unfortunately for many many decades now

They have they have weaned power for themselves Especially the supreme court has in in almost making laws from the bench by the way that they're writing decisions

It's actually completely criminal and and judges that do that really should be imprisoned for that Right, and if we can tie that back to the pro -life movement that's enforced that view of we have to wait for scotus

We have to write wait for these judges to do something about it That's enforced that belief that scotus has all of this power

And all of the cards are in their hands when we have the three branches of government. They don't make laws

So it's been perpetuated like where does this ideology come from? Anyways, it's actually from the pro -life movement roe versus wade.

That's all we ever hear about We got to wait for roe. We got to wait for roe and i'm like, no we don't Right. Well and this is on I mentioned a couple weeks ago, but for folks to pick up you've been saying this without you know

Abortion is not legal. It's not a law Okay, it's it's a it is a supreme court or a court decision

It's not a law the the legislature has never voted on abortion

To make it legal Right. We that's why we talk about roe versus wade now.

We we had uh, Biden saying that he wants to do that Okay, you know, let's see that we do have someone uh backstage here, um

Stephanie here. We'll bring her and see if she has a question Hello, stephanie Hey, how are you?

Hi Hi, how are you? Good This doesn't have a lot to do with abortion

I had a jehovah's witness friend um He quit work recently so I uh,

I highlighted a bunch of things in the in the jehovah's witness bible that um,

I I thought contradicted his religion. Um, mostly I wanted to ask a question.

Um, I know in revelations they say You can't add or subtract from the bible, but I had like a crazy idea about a uh

A religious fiction novel and I didn't know What's appropriate? Ah, okay so Is religious fiction appropriate ever?

Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. That's not adding to the bible first off um

One thing to realize that in revelation And so sarah we take any questions. So it's you know, you're fine

I'm, sorry. No, no, no, that's fine We might not have told sarah that at the beginning Uh, so so one thing that rose with revelation is when when you see that the adding and subtracting

That's not the only time we see something like that in scripture. It's three separate times In scripture an interesting thing with it

It's it's at the end of each of a period of writing of new scripture because there were periods of silence uh, so what we have there is

Uh, the fact of your if you're going to write something that is a fiction, you know, our friend here matt slick uh, who's a friend of the show he's written a uh, he's written a um you know novel

Uh called the influence It deals and he's trying to teach angel angels and and theology through throughout his book

He's not adding to scripture So that that would be a problem That wouldn't violate that instruction

Okay Okay, and and the idea of that instruction is the fact that only god could add to scripture

Like so you can't add a human book like the book of mormon Or the quran or the tamud or any of those things and call it scripture

Yeah, you wouldn't want to do that Yeah so Speaking of the jehovah's witness friend.

Um, I highlighted a bunch of passages He was like when he quit he said he didn't want to accept a bible from me and I said uh

It's a jehovah's witness bible and he said okay, but I highlighted a bunch of things like isaiah 9.

Um Uh isaiah 9 6 for to us a child is born to us

The son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called wonderful counselor mighty god

Everlasting father prince of peace and they did not omit that from the newest version and I highlighted that Uh, guess what?

You called him god And I hope he's upset about that Okay Good for you

Let me give you a couple passages you could go to with them. Uh, if you'd run into him again, uh, jeremiah

Uh jeremiah 23 Yeah Five and what you do is have them read even in their translation verse five

I'm going to read it out of new american standard, but it says behold the days are coming declares the lord when I will raise up uh for david a righteous branch and he will reign as king and Act wisely and do just justice and righteousness in the land and I stop there and say who's that speaking of?

And they always say Jesus I say okay In his days judah will be saved and israel will dwell securely and this is his name by which he will be called

Jehovah sikhanu or yahweh sikhanu the lord our righteousness In their own translation, they will say jehovah there.

So that's one that you can use The other is if you take them to first colossians one

And you can take them through uh where It talks about their they're going to have in their

Translation where in colossians 1 14 to 18. It says He created all things

They're going to add the word other all other things other things. Yes, so Correct what you do is point out that they've added the word other for their theology, but make sure you take them to isaiah 44 24

And the reason for that is this is what isaiah 20 44 24 says Thus says the lord your redeemer and the one who formed you from the womb.

I am the lord And I the lord am the maker of all things stretching out the heavens by myself

And spreading out the earth all alone And so the important thing there is they're going to say that god

The almighty god jehovah created michael the archangel who became jesus and he then that jesus

Then created everything else so they'll say god created through him That's not what isaiah says isaiah said that he stretched everything out by himself and he made it all alone

So that means that there couldn't be a michael that created everything I did email you about this and I have a list of everything.

I highlighted in this jehovah's witness bible for him So I hope to you

Good But um, thank you for having I didn't expect to just be popped on These are our office hours if you ever have questions, you know

This is when you can always get a hold of one of the three of us. Hopefully would be here. No All right.

I'll put you backstage if you have any other questions, you can you can just put it in the private chat Okay. All right.

Thank you Thank you All right. Well, that was fun Um, I one thing

I want to say about the row thing too is When we're talking about roe versus wade when roe versus wade

Uh, if it would be overturned Uh, that doesn't mean it makes abortion Like it's just criminal and illegal because it's overturned it kicks the issue right back to the states

Which is where we are right now to begin with it's an unnecessary middle step that we just don't need

Hopefully that makes more sense too for the people that are still confused about roe Because that's all you hear on a lot of these pro -life movement things is is waiting on that court well,

I think that's a pretty powerful discussion on that when you're talking about it because If you think about it

It's they're trying to bump it up their responsibilities in the state What they should be doing they're trying to bump it up to the supreme court saying.

Oh, we can't do anything Our hands are tied by the federal government. Yeah Well, the state and local laws are sitting there that are that are making it possible for these abortion clinics

I use clinic loosely, you know, it's the it's the murder mill they're they're using these the state and local laws and lawmakers and You know, and they're using them to promote their cause while saying their hands are tied

There's all kinds of different degrees on of that and some of them, you know, some states are extremely pro -abortion

And other other states are moderately Pro -life, I guess you'd call it.

Um Let me ask this. Is there any state that you can think of that is

Truly pro -life that would be truly standing for the rights of an innocent baby well, we've had

Abolition bills actually legit abolition solid christian bio -based equal protection bills introduced throughout the country

I think we're up to 12 states now that we have um some righteous legislation put forward to establish justice and um

So if you look at the free the states facebook page Or we have free the states .org a lot of the information is on there and you can scroll back through particularly a facebook page

Even looking at videos one thing that we do is we do a lot of reporting We do a lot of don't just take my word for it here

Let's go and you know, like citizen journalism and investigate listen to hearings. Listen to what the legislators are saying.

Listen to what? other people who have power um are saying and uh

We brought up jeff durbin before I mean he had tony louwenger on I don't know if you guys saw that video if you know Who tony louwenger is he's the vice president of national right to life

He also happens to be the presidents of oklahomans for life and he lobbied against sp13 our abolition bill and so When you talk about the pro -life states, oklahoma is the most pro -life state in the union

And we couldn't get our abolition bill out of committee by By republican pro -lifers, so that's actually an argument that people use against us say see abolition doesn't work

You can't even get it through committee, you know And so what I say to that is you keep going back though You keep going back and what it did though Because we had that documented that we had a bill that a lot of people supported and we're like Oh, well, we're gonna have this happen because my legislature my my senator is pro -life

So he's gonna vote for it and then they voted against it. They're like well what's going on here? You said you were pro -life and here's a bill to actually protect all the babies and you're against it

So it's it's awakened a lot of people a lot of churches in particular And if you guys saw what happened at the southern baptist convention recently where I mean

This is the abolition movement coming forth and big changes are happening I don't know if that answers your question, but we don't have an abolition state yet I believe in the future that we are going to have safe places for babies

We're going to probably have anti -abolition states and abolition states So like when we have the north and the south and going through all that and freeing the slaves

It was a geographical like Line of here and here. I don't know really what that's going to look like if we have it kind of checkered all throughout

I I really don't know That's just something that I trust in the lord. All I know is what our duty is

What we're supposed to be doing as christians and demanding justice and saving these babies and then how it's all going to play out

I don't know Yeah, I I I worry about that to be honest with you just because you know

You know as I stand in front of as I have stood in front of the abortion mill Up near us.

I've actually seen deacons and pastors And others sneak in, you know children kids

That have you know been involved in some sexual activity and they sneak them into the abortion clinic and uh to murder these babies and and I see that Within the body of christ.

We have a lot of people that are um Satanically duped

Into believing the lie. They believe that it's okay to To live your life your way and that you know that god's really not going to be

That big of a judge against this, uh, this wickedness that's going on And and I think it's in the church itself

And that's where we're seeing the struggle here. So You know, you know kt pointed out just just a while ago that the greatest need that we have um

Is the gospel it's the gospel of christ. It's the proclamation of the truth the word of god um, and it it doesn't matter if if If we stop abortion in every context in every situation 100

Across the board for every person in america, and it never happens again If every single person that is involved in this movement or not involved in this movement

If they stand before christ without him being their savior what happens to them? That's the point, you know, the the issue is while this is a strong issue

You know, I know a lot of people that stand at the abortion clinics and they will fight for that truth

And I and I and I thank god for them Because these these people, you know as vile as they are they need to know

That those abortion mill doctors they need to hear that truth so I I don't want to I want to kind of change the subject slightly because I I know

We've got somebody wants to come in and ask some questions stages that we want to bring in So yeah, but before we do that,

I want to just rifle through a couple things pretty quick with you sarah. Um, First are you okay with the sled?

I mean, I know you we've talked about this But are you okay with a sled argument being used? um the one that scott klusendorf put forward, um in terms of um how we argue now, obviously the abolitionist movement and in a biblical position is that Is that it's a baby from conception?

human life from conception And that's uh, you're murdering a baby in abortion.

So it should be criminalized. Okay, so we get that as our baseline Now as we argue our position about this being a human being

If there are you know abortionists that they're still arguing it's a clump of cells We can use something like the slut argument.

Is that an okay argument in that instance? Sure. I mean science is going to agree with us science agrees with the bible

I mean medical technology sometimes it takes a while to catch up, but we know the bible's our foundation So sled, uh, probably most of yours probably know what sled is or if you want to go down through that It just talks about the size level of development the location of the baby

All of those things that people use to justify abortion say well it doesn't really matter because the baby's really small

Um, and so we just talk about how size of a human being doesn't matter the smaller the person really

Should be more protected not less protected so you can use their arguments and talk about those things and just kind of break them down Um, and sometimes it's it's using those things that opens their eyes to these bigger things and they're more willing to listen

So i'm not particularly against it. I just don't think that um, just trying to explain to somebody that this is actually a baby um is is the whole answer because there's a lot of People that are for abortion that fully recognize all of those things and know it's a baby and they're still for abortion

So you can try to convince them and use sled and use like the humanity of the baby and all that stuff

But they still think it's okay to do so It does come down to the gospel issue and a heart issue You can argue science all day long and show them a million different ultrasounds.

They're like, yep. I still think that's okay To have an abortion and amen to that and we won't go through the whole slut argument

But it's size level of development environment and degree of dependency. Yeah is uh is what that argument is.

Okay so so moving on from that and uh For those of you who are watching the video.

Um, it was put up by uh by I think justin that uh, conception continues life so Um, justin and I think justin disagrees with andrew and I about when life begins he thinks in the mormon position of Right, it's it's andrew agrees with me.

Yeah, I agree with the bible at least since i'm older but um And and I I had the argument.

I I've held held to it before you so y 'all stop But you try to say that all the time Either way, that's that's a whole different argument because that's uh, there's theologians on both sides of that both sides of that issue at conception

Okay at conception is when life begins It's it's not the the issue is not that Because some of the people will argue that life begins at birth

I I I did think it was funny when they were challenging hillary clinton on this When when exactly does life begin when she's like I got birth when like when the feet come out when the head come out magical birth canal

If you've looked at choice 42 For glossing out on her little satirical videos kind of mocking these ideas because some ideas

Deserve to be mocked because they're ridiculous So the magical birth can now come through here and you're a human before that not a human you just weren't

You just weren't because the real question is when do we get that immaterial part of us the spirit? The the you know that immaterial part that's the question and that that comes at conception

Well, we're created in the image of god. We're not birthed in the image. I mean we are birthed

I mean we're we're living we are You know image of god where we're image bearers right now But the scripture says we are created

In the image of god not, you know some arbitrary point in our life When we're three months old birth or whatever just pick a spot.

It's all arbitrary Why birth why not you talk to people on campus and they don't think that babies are really a cognitive

Worthwhile human beings until they're three I mean, yeah, but but here's the thing. So what so let's let's take that argument, right?

You have that person that said because that's what david smalley tried to argue with me with that Clip we played at the very beginning and what do we what do we deal with?

The thing that we have to realize is okay, but when you talk about slavery, how did they justify it?

Well, it's not really a human being. Yeah, it's not really human. It's not really human. We can we can they're just property three fifths of a person

Even the courts start to say, okay, we'll agree with you. It's human But you know what we're going to say three fifths of a person, correct?

They just started That the heartbeat bill is the issue they'll say well if we can get it at the heartbeat, you know

Well, you know what a heartbeat is and this at the other and that's why i've always contended according to the scripture

Life doesn't begin at conception. It continues on at conception from the scripture

We see that, you know god breathed the breath of life into adam and eve And every one of us from adam and eve we come from him from them

And and we see that every single living soul that has come after them

Adam and eve have have been alive from the moment, you know From from the moment they were conceived and then beyond And that's why that's why

I argue against the heartbeat bill because it's just trying to to push the the life issue down, you know a few weeks because You know

Yeah, I mean even if outside abortion mills There's all these kinds of reports because the heartbeat bill is so popular the last couple years

And you know women come in for abortion and they're really early pregnant and they're like it's not like my baby has a heartbeat right now anyway

Like who's training them to think that way like to dehumanize their own baby a lot of this stuff

Like so i'm saying this ideology is being perpetuated by not the pro -aborts some of this bad

Stuff that's being it's from the pro -life movement and these bills And i'm like well heartbeat doesn't matter you still have a baby and they're like well,

I mean see and and Just to understand why what justin was saying there it's not that he has the mormon view that all of All just tongue -in -cheek created and and put it.

Well, there are people that hold Judaism modern judaism holds this same with mormons that that god created all the spirits

You know within the first five days and then we're just sitting there waiting to get bodies Um, that's not what he was saying.

He his point uh is the fact that in Procreation god has put within procreation the creation of of spirits.

So we do have someone backstage. We have chris backstage You look up before we get to him. Yeah, you have a couple things you want to get to and you have 15 minutes

Yep, two other quick questions three quick questions. Okay, so sarah, um So let's talk about the two biggest objections out there right now

Okay, so we've established really good a really good ground. Um Really good ground in terms of our position as an abolitionist

What about when somebody says first of all ectopic pregnancy? Okay How do we answer that?

That was it? Okay. Yeah. Um, what about ectopic pregnancy? First of all abortion facilities do not treat ectopic pregnancies so if you hear anybody if you're one of the ones that are outside mills or you know, you hear people saying well,

I have to have an abortion because Um, i've had an ectopic pregnancy and they're making an appointment at two o 'clock on tuesday

If it's a real life threatening emergency Something is actually going to take your life and it's like stat.

We have to take care of it right now You're not going to be making an appointment to go and get that done, right? You're going to be treated in the er you're going to if it's real life and death

You're in the hospital. First of all, you're not inside an abortion clinic. So those freestanding clinics, they're not needed for ectopic pregnancies

They don't treat them abortion facilities are designed to empty the uterus only

Uh, whether it's dnc or the dismemberment to um dilate the cervix and go inside the uterus

That's what they do. They do not treat tubes. They do not treat So that's what an ectopic pregnancy is

This is a pregnancy outside the uterus by definition abortion facilities cannot even touch that because they are aborting babies in the uterus

First of all, so they're not able to treat them. They're not real legit medical facilities

That can do that ectopic pregnancies are um, uh, They're not uncommon, but they're not very common

It does happen and that just means that the pregnancy has implanted somewhere outside the uterus so it can be a danger to the mother

So i'm not saying that every pregnancy is easy or there aren't complications or there aren't anything obviously things happen all the time

There's preeclampsia. There's all kinds of reasons that mothers need intervention and help when they're pregnant So but there's never a justifiable reason to still murder that baby

When we talk about ectopic pregnancies, which you know in my years of scanning I saw just a handful of them.

I just saw maybe 12 or 13 within the nine years that I worked at the hospital So just a little bit more than one per year now.

I I didn't you know work 40 hours all of those years Um, but it's rare, but it does happen the vast majority of the time by the time the mother is symptomatic

Which is a lot of times spotting or localized pain to one specific area over where the ectopic pregnancy would be by the time

She's having symptoms The vast majority of the time the baby has already passed away at a microscopic very small level

These aren't like big kicking babies and we're all you know having to abort them and dismember like it's that's not that We're talking about something very very small and it's implanted in a place where it's never meant to be and there's not life sustaining

Um endometrium or things there to sustain that life and most of the time that baby passes away on its own

However, when those fetal cells or those embryonic cells stop growing There's other cells that are involved in the pregnancy.

There's chorionic villi that are going to turn into the placenta later There's blood products. There's all kinds of things going on in this newly created life

There's still moving and turning and all those things and it's in a very elastic or non -elastic tube.

That's not meant to Expand it's not a uterus. It's just this tiny little tube and it's very Vascular and it can rupture and burst so we're talking about these fast moving cells, even though this baby.

It's not a normal pregnancy It's not a normal gestational sac. It's abnormal We still have to treat that because the tube could still very well rupture and cause internal bleeding of the mother

That's why we still treat ectopic pregnancies most of the time I can't say ever 100 because you don't always want to say always or never in these cases because there's always exceptions to exceptions

But the vast majority of the time ectopic pregnancies, they're not living babies that we're removing

We're just it's it's more like removing a miscarriage to be honest and I think that there's a lot of unnecessary guilt and Misunderstanding with a lot of women who have been through ectopic pregnancies that maybe have been wrestling with this and thinking that They gave permission for a doctor to remove or attack their living baby is just in the wrong place and that's not the case

So we need to do a lot better in the medical community about explaining what ectopic pregnancies are what they're not

And taking the time to explain that because that's a lasting Thing that you know parents can have

Um, so we we cannot be legalizing or keeping abortion protected for these uh

For an ectopic reason or any other reason um We can treat we can treat women with their ectopic pregnancies without actually killing the baby now

There's exceptions to exceptions exceptions of what about the rare case where we do find a living baby in the tube

You know what then? Um, and there is something called watchful waiting where some doctors have done that And again, we're talking about six weeks or seven weeks.

Hardly any babies really make it past that um, because then it's just They just die.

So basically they're they're all gonna die. Is it possible that they can be re -implanted? Into the uterus.

There's some debate of that. Some people say yes. Some people say no. I am not convinced that that is possible I'm, not ruling out technology.

We have the technology to do Crazy things now Um, i'm sure that if it was a dedicated

Um, if we actually had the the people and the desire to try to do that and actually make that a funded

Project sophie. I think that we could actually potentially do that I don't think there's a lot of interest and money put into that right now because the easy solution is just to just be done

With it, right? There's no real Drive to save some of these babies and also the fact that like I said these babies come down the tube and implant in something where it's not supposed to be and it's like it's a

It attaches it's not just like attached by one little like thread, right? It like buries itself in and attaches in there gets down in there and attaches

So if we would try to have I don't know how they would do that. Honestly Have the technology to kind of detach it and scoop it out put it where it's supposed to go

That's this life -sustaining source. That's like unhooking. It's Everything that's keeping it alive.

It's eventually going to die. But how do you detach it to put it where it goes in the first place? Yeah, I just don't know and this is really good because most people that follow the slut argument and read scott klusendorf's books

He doesn't answer the atopic pregnancies very well And so that's why I that's why i've done my own research and I approached you about this what a couple months ago

To get some hard fast answers on this. So thank you for for telling everybody about that. Hey With their son

Sarah says these things folks if you're not picking up on everything. She says things really quick off -handed comments

That are huge And so I just want to highlight some of these things You heard her mention the fact that these clinics where they do abortions.

They're not medical clinics That in mind there's a reason they're not in the clinics

Because they don't want to hold the the abortion clinics to the same standard that they would have to do for a medical clinic

Okay, it's very it is very interesting. I you know, I worked on it with a crisis pregnancy center in new jersey where They were you know, the one thing

I liked about them is they were there using a where people were abortion minded So they could share the gospel that was their mindset.

Um, but they actually are the only A medical center in new jersey that does full range of std testing

It was interesting because for them to be able to just draw blood

They had to help be held up to a medical standards But here at these other clinics they can put someone under do a surgery and they don't have to be held to the same standard it's so folks,

I mean this is I I i'm listening to you and i'm just going most of the people are not picking you're saying so much giving so much

Information i'm trying to get it in that, you know That window you guys gave me I could go on Angie wants to nix anthony time tonight if he wasn't wanting to nix anthony time we would be fine

That's because other people have lives they have things to do. I know we can maybe Part two

I can come back. You guys can both get off the show Do that Uh, you come back you come actually actually it'd be great to have you back sarah.

Um, Let me ask this question too. Um Are there any are there any times where the mother's life is in danger that you have to terminate a pregnancy?

all the time That might shock you but here's what it doesn't mean that we have to murder the baby to terminate the pregnancy

Is that the same thing? Never in the never I gotta ask you a question to add on to his question

Okay, you only got five minutes. Okay, so here's five minutes to just answer the way When you have this emergency

Where you have to go because mom's gonna die They run to the abortion clinic and make an appointment Right.

Yeah. No, they go to a doctor a real one and I posted on here earlier. Most of these guys are not certified doctors

They've lost their license or it's relapsed or they never were to begin. They're horrible. They're but it's their butcher shop

So even in the hospital we can say okay We'll shut down all the freestanding abortion mills and we'll just do abortions in the hospital where it's more sterile

And we have legit medical doctors doing it and stuff. That's that's going to be the answer to what we're talking about here, right?

We'll just do the abortions then in the hospitals But let me tell you this never in the nine years when I worked in the the er

Did I ever hear the word say quick? Let's throw up the stirrups. We have an emergency abortion. We got to do it now

It doesn't exist It doesn't exist now. Yes There are high risk pregnancies all kinds of things that can happen during a pregnancy

But if a mother is pregnant, we know about it. She goes straight up to the mother and baby unit And we put a monitor on the mom.

We we monitor her we look at her heart We look at her vitals and what do we do to her to her belly? We put a monitor on the baby and we say okay, you know

Are are you under stress or what's going on here? And if there's an emergency situation that we have to end that pregnancy terminate that pregnancy

An emergency c -section takes 20 minutes if we have to emergently emergently end that pregnancy we take the baby out

And we try to save both lives now sometimes though that baby's too sick or sometimes the baby's too young and those things happen and that's very sad and You know all of those things but the intention is never to murder the baby hurt the baby

The intention is to end the pregnancy to save the mother and also save the baby So we don't need an abortion in in the context of murdering the baby um in medical we have these medical terms and we say elective abortion and therapeutic abortion and all kinds of different abortions or we say um how spontaneous abortion for miscarriages in some paperwork or some radiology reports sometimes they say spontaneous abortion and A mother who just had a miscarriage gets a hold of that and it's like abortion and like spontaneous that just means miscarriage

So we do have to define that but There are emergency situations to answer your questions

Yes that we have to terminate the pregnancy, but I want to make that very clear We don't have to murder the baby or intentionally, you know

Especially if the baby is in the second and third trimester and there's an emergency situation Do you know how long it takes to dilate the cervix get everything prepped?

Dismember the baby do all that stuff. I mean it takes two days sometimes to do all that kind of stuff What kind of emergency procedure takes 48 hours?

That doesn't it's not it's not an emergency procedure where it's saving the life of the mother Yeah, no, that's a great great point so have you heard about a statistic that says um breast cancer in females is higher among Females who've had abortions in the past.

Yes. I've heard that. I mean, that's a really interesting statistic out there I'm looking forward to seeing more research one on that type of stuff having to do with hormonal problems and and the hormones not

Going away in the breast tissue the way it naturally would after pregnancy and being able to naturally breastfeed and whatnot

So yeah, it just goes against the laws of nature. The laws of god is just Unnatural. I mean they're you know to have an abortion you have more scar tissue inside of your body um women who have had abortions are

More susceptible to stds and when they do want to have a baby and give birth

They have a lot of infertility problems or their cervixes are incompetent and they have miscarriages

There's there's consequences to sin and there's consequences Um, and it's just very sad this like I said before this just this affects everybody.

Yeah, absolutely Okay, i'm gonna ask one last one now before we bring chris on you said three you got your three chris

Well, it's you guys kept interrupting and adding more stuff Okay Roman catholics should we link arms with them or not?

Oh depends on what you we define our terms what we're linking arms. Uh, do we allow them to allow them do you know?

When if we have an abolition bill and it's on the table and um or uh

We're voting for somebody who's an abolitionist Do we encourage all people to vote to get this person in office and if they're running on an abolition platform?

Absolutely. I think everybody should vote for that guy whether they're christian or not get that guy in there I wouldn't consider that linking arms with somebody to try to get a good candidate in there

Just going to abolish abortion now as far as preaching the gospel standing outside abortion facilities

Um preaching having the word of god speaking the truth to people and then you have idols

You know standing beside you or the rosary bringing praise or something like that. I don't think that we should be linking arms and um

Integrating that and being part. So we have to define what we mean by by linking arms Um, you know, this is a no compromise kind of movement because we are standing on solid ground and with with the word

So when it comes to those spiritual battles, we can't be mixing different religions In but when we talk about, you know, if a if a catholic wants to You know donate money towards.

Um, you know, I don't know some of our signs that we make or something like that I personally don't have any problem if they want to help me purchase the signs that I make or or the lit maybe they're

I should say this but maybe they're Being a bad catholic by doing that not really following some of the things that the teachings.

Um, so Yes, we can in some ways I would be careful about the whole linking the arms thing because always you know

You always want to say like no right away but like if there's a bill up for grabs or if there's a legislator that um is is going to be in office or if they want to donate

Um, as long as there's no strings attached, right? Um to that we're not going to compromise the gospel in an effort to like take money or something

But I think we've had catholics Um Like we don't vet everybody that who donates to like abolition message projects or whatever, you know

We don't vet everybody where all the money is coming from Um, so if they want to donate twenty dollars or something

If they're an atheist, but they're against abortion, which doesn't make any sense to me, but those people they say that they exist um

I I think that that's okay Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean The thing is is when you know when i'm outside an abortion mill

Uh, the catholics get the gospel too because they need it. It's not You know, they need the gospel just as much as that person going in.

Yeah, so We're not saying the rosary with them. That's the linking the arms thing We're not you know being all chummy and compromising and all that kind of stuff

We can be out there for the saving of the child's life But we make the distinction that we are not catholic.

They are not christian They need the gospel just as much as the people working inside the clinic

Just as much as those who are going in the clinic, yeah so workspace salvation,

I mean, that's what they think and Um, yeah, i've had it's just a great it does come down to this isn't just an abortion issue.

I mean We're supposed to as christians. What is our role in this world, right? We're supposed to Preach the gospel make disciples push back against evil defy tyrants all that kind of stuff and it's a tyrannical

Ideology that is promoting this killing of babies. It's it's all in our in our woven here and um,

Yeah, I mean preach the gospel to anybody and everybody Yeah So, uh since anthony likes to make us go over 10 o 'clock

Uh, now would be a good time to give you know mention our second sponsor, which is logos bible software uh, if you guys are

Some of you who attended the event we did Uh last week, but um if you haven't and if you want to get good bible software, it's

Uh, it can be expensive, but that's you we can you can get a lot of books on your computer do a lot of study

Uh, it will greatly help you if you have good tools to interpret the bible

And so if you want to get logos bible software, you haven't used it or you want to upgrade You can get it with through us as a partnership that we have with logos.

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Just go to there and you can not only get a discount on a upgrade or a purchase of logos

But you can also get yourself five free books on from striving fraternity. So with that i'm going to bring chris in Chris welcome.

All right. Thank you. Can everyone hear me? Yes. What's your question tonight? Okay, I actually have a couple or whatnot.

So I guess kind of going back to earlier topics that we came across tonight so let's go back to scott gluesendorf now several years ago,

I came across him and I thought he was At the time I thought he was respectable guy in regards to the apologetics on the abortion issue

But it seems like the last few months or so. He's been coming after the abolition the idea of abolition that sort of thing

I know and I know that he's done a lot of good work over the years But how should we approach him now now especially with that desiring god article he did a few months back or whatnot

How should we approach him? I'm actually would call myself an abolitionist Yeah Um, I mean

I can answer that. I I know scott. Uh, he knows me. Um Abby johnson knows who

I am christian mercer hawkins. Some of these people they don't like me. Um, they don't um, but i'm friendly with scott

I um, he Um befriended me a couple years ago because of the movement and um, even some legislatures, uh legislation

Um people that promoted that here in ohio Um former senators and things what they do a lot of times is they do as you've seen they kind of expose themselves they'll come out against abolition or different things and it's like Why would you do that?

Like he was against the sbc resolution and he said that it was a Bad idea that he wasn't for it.

And um, So how we approach him just like anybody we disagree with we still if we know we're right we know we are

We we don't compromise with that and you don't be jerks to him. You don't say how wrong or awful he is

How I approach things is I always um, he has done good things even like live action.

Lila rose She has some things wrong, but she's done a lot of good things, too And I always say listen,

I appreciate this work of this video that was made and things like that I can share talking about linking arms with catholics catholics have made really good

Life affirming kind of videos and things like that. That's fine. But as far as uh, um scott klusendorf

I would sit down with him and have lunch with him any day of the week and or have a conference call with him and Hash this out

Um, he he claims, you know, he's a he's a christian And um as brothers and sisters in the lord, we should be able to have these conversations and be persistent with them

I've talked to lots of people over the last years that like all those mean abolitionists or they're crazy or they're just fanatical people

And but we keep planting these seeds and we keep you know Preaching this message and talking about this and eventually just like when you plant seeds sometimes it starts to grow and um

I mean troy newman if you know who that is. I mean, I have him. Um, i'm in constant contact

I want to say constant i'm in contact with him and and he's hearing this abolition message, too And it may be slower for some people but they're hearing it and they're getting it.

So I would just be um Persistent with him and loving with him and don't compromise the message um, but just continue to to have him look into what we're saying because I think that hopefully prayerfully he'll get it one day.

That would be a fantastic fantastic thing Yeah, because especially that desiring god article like I just don't have time to go over that right now

I'm not asking you to do that But does he does he um have accurate understanding of the abolition movement or does he do a lot of trauma?

Who's that scott? Yeah scott um, I think I don't want to get into too much speculation because it could

Get kind of sticky there why people do the things that they do and i'm assuming like does he really get it?

Does he not I mean I would I'd be presuming some things um I think that there are some people in the pro -life movement who absolutely do get it who are just it's it's a pride issue and They're very stubborn and if they've been in the movement for years, they would have to admit that they've been wrong

That's hard for anybody to do right you mess up but one day or one one thing let alone if what you've built

Maybe really wasn't what you thought it was or something. Um, uh mark herrington here in created equal.

He's a friend of mine. I I You know, I don't not like any of these people I think what some of the things that they're doing are very wrong and detrimental to the the cause

And abolition, but I would sit down with any of these people And and plead with them and just show how sincere and um honest

I am like i'm just i'm sincerely want them to see it too not that the lord needs any one of us to do what he's gonna do true, but But somebody in the pro -life movement to come out of that and we've had had people active

And I don't know if you guys know this about me I didn't say this at the beginning But I was with cbr I was with the center for bioethical reform for a year

And I actually volunteered for some pro -life organizations. I was always kind of like the redheaded stepchild I never really fit in but I didn't really know my role and I kind of Ruffled feathers a little bit when

I was working in that movement, but I was i've met lila rose. I've met like paul ryan I've been to dc and had these fancy dinners and things so I know kind of some of the inner working and how easy um and uh appealing it could be to be sucked into a lot of this stuff and then to get out of it

Um would be a hard thing. So we just need to pray for these guys that they see the truth and that they'll um

They'll start fighting for abolition and not regulation Yeah, most definitely yeah yeah, and Yeah, because i'm down here in oklahoma or whatnot and i've actually like last couple of years down here in oklahoma city

They've actually had like um rallies from free the states. I've actually helped you. Yeah Yeah Had an interesting conversation with one of my legislators in regards to one of the sb13 bills in that regard

Well, thank you for going to be involved in that. Yeah, most definitely I'm really yeah really glad to do that and I hope to do that more in the future as well

Yeah, get connected with the team down there. We got a great great team and and um, I mean It's not all serious all the time.

Obviously, this is really heavy and serious matter, but we are brothers and sisters and we do um joke around we're just you know

Fun people too and just get get connected with the team down there and uh, I think you'll really appreciate what we're doing down there in oklahoma

Yeah, I agree. I really yeah A lot of a lot of respect for the guy for the people down down here in that regard One last one last question.

I do have Back to like the ultrasounds, you know, we talked there was prop earlier or whatnot um

I know a while back on wretched radio There are these commercials for pro -life organizations saying that if a woman if a mother sees the ultrasound of the baby

There's an 80 chance that she'd keep the baby Is there any truth to that statement at all? Yes, however what's the setting that they are um using that stats from I mean inside a pro -life if if Abortion minded women um came to me and I did ultrasound and explain everything and preach the gospel did all this kind of stuff

I probably have a lot higher um saves or um Success rate of saving that baby than somebody who is seeing an ultrasound inside an abortion clinic

Where they're not going to do the same thing. So what's the environment who that they're going to who's doing the ultrasound? um

I don't mean I don't know that it's it is that high or 80 percent but a lot of women who go to see

Um their babies inside like these mobile units and these pregnancy centers They like I said earlier, they already most of them a lot of them do already have their hearts

Uh softened to this and they see the ultrasound and um That's a different environment than going inside of abortion clinic

We're not going to save 80 of all babies at risk of abortion by making ultrasound laws inside abortion mills

Okay It does because um, I remember hearing that because 80 percent was the advertised number and it's basically the point of the ad was like Well, if eight percent of the time the mother keeps the baby or whatnot

Now therefore you have to like if you if you give like 20 bucks or so then 16 16 Bucks of that will go to saving babies and that sort of thing.

Yeah I wasn't sure if that was an advertiser There's some organizations I think let them live and save the store say and there's some other

Organizations that i've actually put out if you donate twenty dollars that goes to It only takes twenty dollars to save a baby or something like that I'm, like,

I don't know where they come up with that or like there's actually certain rosaries that if you pray On a certain rosary it's supposed to save a baby from hell or something like that.

Like i've seen all kinds of crazy things um Yeah, I mean it's it's an industry just like we have the the pro -abortion complex industry that just builds, you know

Planned parenthood and all these organizations. We do have the pro -life movement complex, too that just It's an industry

Exactly, and that's actually why I prefer using the phrase pro -life industry in that regard too Because yeah, because that's one of the reasons why

I support like the end abortion I mean, I have why I agree with like now and the people just because they're

Metaphorically, they're trying to work themselves out of the job in that regard versus the people like it and the executives and pro -life movement

They're they care about their jobs and their income and if abortion's illegal and criminal They'll be out of the job and they don't want that Oh, believe me

We'll take you know, if somebody says, you know, we'll say it's twenty dollars helps us make these drop cards You could say something like that, but I don't know how anybody can say twenty dollars saves a baby

Um, you know what we do we have um, I know it's like ten o 'clock somebody asked about um If we just put this up here these materials, this is some of the stuff that we have made

Um this actually you can get on the website again. We really don't make any money off this stuff

We we write all this stuff ourselves and the artwork. This is a booklet. I think it's only

Uh, maybe 17 pages long or 22 pages long But this breaks down the difference between the abolition movement the pro -life movement you can get this on the free the states website

Um, i'm an ultrasound tech as you guys have been hearing about the last two years That's actually my seven -year -old right?

Let me point to the right one here. That's my seven -year -old She's now seven -year -old daughter that I took a picture of myself when

I was pregnant there and we've used that in the pamphlet So that's still her in the womb, right? So this breaks down um a lot of um

What we've discussed tonight in a really neat little just uh booklet and you guys can get this This is great for churches or really anybody.

We also make um These quad folds are the church is guilty again um, it talks about um

You know, did you know that there were over 50 million church -going christians in nazi? Germany who did nothing to stand against hitler's culture of death kind of boom, you know, and then you flip it up And it's there's a graphic image in the middle.

So I don't know exactly who's watching but we make things like this as well um drop cards

There's all kinds of things that people can do if you're not comfortable explaining some of this stuff, you know Work on your apologetics, but you can always be giving people information and learning and talking about it

Um, just check out that website. That's awesome I also want to plug this you guys from uh, matt truella the doctrine of the lesser magistrates

Um talk about when you have tyranny and oppression in the higher Uh the courts in the federal government of the states

Um at the state level what is the duty of the lesser magistrates? We're talking about commissioners and sheriffs and uh,

Just your local representation how we're supposed to interpose For people who are being oppressed and even murdered and this is a great book talking about um

Defying unjust court opinions and all that kind of stuff. So definitely check that out. That's the doctrine of the lesser magistrates

Um, so that'll help you guys and of course the website has more information. You guys can read up on that Uh, find me on facebook.

Um, I just really just appreciate getting all this information out there And end abortion now, um, they do great work over there as well

Yeah, well we we definitely appreciate you coming on I think it would be good to have you back, uh We could discuss a lot more stuff and um, you know,

I hope I Had we had the website up there. I know some people are saying they're going to go check that out So that would be good.

Um kt is saying here 180 movie is good for sharing with people And there's a lot of things we could do the the thing though that we that we can't do is nothing

Yeah That's what we can't do Um, and so, you know is so the question is should everybody be outside in a uh an abortion mill

I would say not everyone's called to to do that. Right? We we all have different we're all gifted differently.

We're all going to We're all have different type of days Uh people some people can't do that with their jobs

But that doesn't mean there's not other things that we can all be doing You know, we all have gifts and different things we could bring to the table whether it's financially giving to some of these projects printing our materials um, or anything like that artwork praying for people, but I Do want to say well,

I pray for you guys and we do appreciate that but we're also human beings created to act and go do and it's going to take a lot more than just Asking the lord to end this.

I mean ultimately he will but he expects something of us and we are responsible for what we know and um

We just we have to do something everybody has a role in this and everybody has um something the lord would want them to do about this our neighbors are being murdered and We're supposed to love our neighbors as ourselves and love the lord and this is part of it

Yeah Yeah, so anthony, thanks for setting this up. Uh, I think this was good discussion

I I think folks if you can check out more that with sarah because like I said earlier, you know, i'm listening to her and Having been involved in stuff i'm listening to things she's saying just kind of off the cuff

And she's rattling through so much information that i'm going like I just keep wanting to stop and say wait

Wait, did everyone pick up on this? Did everyone pick up? It it there I do encourage you go back listen to this podcast again watch the video again

Until you really start to see everything that she was saying There's a lot there a lot more than I think

You may be listening to her and may have missed a whole bunch of stuff That she actually is saying and you want to dig into some of this so sarah, we thank you for coming in um

You know melissa is saying there one thing we can always do is share the gospel Um, that is something we can do

If you want to help us continue to do this, you can always support us go to strivingfraternity .org Support that's how you can support us doing programs like this.

We thank you guys for coming on sarah We thank you for for joining us and and informing us on a whole lot of things

Anthony I don't know if you have anything else you want to say before we close out No, that's it. Thank you. I mean we'll have to figure out a time that we can uh, get you back on sarah and okay anytime

I can talk all night about this. There's a lot more to share too Um, but I do want to end on um, you know

People that are watching that have been involved in abortion and maybe uh aborted their own baby Um is to to say that there is forgiveness in christ

And if you are not right with the lord and you have not yet repented of that You need to do that and get right with him and there's nothing too big that the lord cannot just wash

Wash clean, you know, there's no sin too big. Um Even the sin of murder and so um just come to the lord with with that um

Tonight if that is something that has affected you and like I said You can reach out to any one of us if you need to talk about that too, but um

We we worship a wonderful savior That's right and so We're here if you if you've been involved in an abortion and uh, you need help with that So, uh next week, we don't have anything

To get set up yet for next week. I I will say that uh reached out Uh reaching out to jason lyle.

We may have him come on if we can work out a date, uh, talk about flat earth yes

That's You know, you discuss that with you know, someone that looks at stars all day, right? Uh, but do that in ufo's.

Yeah, so Well, I bet jeff bezos and uh, what's the other guy? Huh? I bet jeff bezos.

What's the other guy's name? Uh, branson branson richard richard branson richard branson Well, they now don't believe in a flat earth anymore if they wanted to yeah so we we may have the reason we're trying to work this out is uh,

You know friend of the show here you guys have seen him in the past justin peters Actually has someone who is a reasonable flat earther that uh, we're going to try to get a discussion going between Reasonable flat earther isn't he made me laugh

I think it means reasonable meaning that the guy's not just like You know, he he can actually hold a discussion not one of these guys that just tries to talk over you to convince you

He's right But uh, we're going to try to see if we could set that up Uh Some people were asking about getting andrew snelling in anthony

So i'm going to put that up to you to see if you can get that worked out Uh, maybe we can have him on the show

Yeah, and if not him, there's other geologists. I know he's hard to get but there's other geologists I could get a hold of i'll

Be out in the pacific northwest coming up here in a in a few weeks Um at a church in portland a church in in seattle and in between i'll be going to the mount st.

Helens creation center It just so happens run by pat roy. It just so happens. They're having the 40th anniversary plus one because of covet last year because coven 40th anniversary celebration and so Um, I just found out today eric coven reached out to me.

He's gonna be out there So I think we're gonna do a video out there together and um Steve, austin's gonna be out there and a few other guys steve

Austin was one of the guys who was originally filming the eruption 40 years ago, which led to a lot of What we know as creationists and in our ability to refute stuff with the grand canyon so Um, if we can't get in like a wrestler like a wd

Yeah It'd be cool if he was No, but so uh, so he might be a great guest to have on too to talk about some of those same things

So i'll i'll be able to see him face to face in a few weeks All right. And so so I don't know what we we will have a show next week.

It'll be good. Whatever it is. I'm sure Uh, you guys can always join and ask your questions. That always makes it a lot more fun