WWUTT 2565 Q&A Evangelizing Roman Catholics, Complementarianism vs. Patriarchy, Pastors Casting Vision

What is a good and loving way that we can evangelize to Roman Catholics? What is the difference between complementarianism and patriarchy?

And is it good to cast vision for your church? The answers to these questions when we Understand the

Text. This is

When we Understand the Text, a daily Bible commentary to help encourage your time in the Word. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .utt

.com. Now back online, here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you,

Becky. You're welcome. Yes, the website was down for a little bit. Uh oh. I'll mention that here in a moment, but first, beginning with Psalm 104, the very end of the psalm,

I will sing to the Lord as long as I live. I will sing praise to my

God while I have being. May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the

Lord. Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless the

Lord, O my soul. Praise the Lord. Babe. Yes.

Welcome back to the program. Thank you. We did not have anything last week, anything during this week, because we were just spending the time recuperating.

Yes. So, thank you for letting us have that time. Very much. Even after I was feeling okay,

I felt like I was working from behind. Uh huh. I was just trying to record.

Catch up. Yeah, record podcasts after the day would have passed that they should have aired already. Yeah. So, I just decided, all right,

I'm going to take this next week off, work ahead. I'll get ahead on everything, and now here we are. Yay.

We're back. We're back. Including the website. Yes. Because as you mentioned, the website's back online.

Uh huh. It was down for a while. Somebody actually left a comment on the Facebook page, like, what in the world happened to the what site?

Aw. It's like it's selling a mortgage to me or something like that. Whoa, that's weird. Like it's a lending website. Well, that was my fault.

Uh oh. Whoops. So, we've moved the website, as I mentioned was going to happen. Uh huh.

And I had to come up with a template. Well, at first, I could not get the domain to work.

Okay. Because it still had the domain assignment of the previous website that we were on. Uh huh. And our host for our domain was not letting me delete it.

Oh, okay. So, I had to figure that out. But I needed a placeholder for the website. So, when I typed the website address in, it would actually take me somewhere.

Oh. And I could see that it worked. Right. So, I just grabbed a template and stuck it in there.

Uh huh. So, the name what would come up, but the rest of the website would be like just whatever was on that template.

Okay. And it was like a mortgage lending site or something. That's hilarious. I mean, you could have applied for a mortgage.

You weren't going to get anything. Right. But that was. You would have been denied. You would have been denied.

What is taking these guys so long? I need to buy this house. Who knew that what was getting into so much stuff?

Well, we're not expanding that much. Yeah, right. Ministry isn't growing like that. But you can go to the website now.

I still haven't worked out dropping the World Wide Web part. So, you have to type in the www.

Oh, I gotcha. www .tt .com. I'm working on that. Trying to get that figured out. Uh huh. And the site's still under construction, but at least you've got, you know, the basics, the podcast, the videos.

If you click on contact, you can email us when we understand the text at gmail .com

or send us a voicemail. The voicemail link is back on there. It's just not on the front of the page yet. Yay.

But if you click on contact, you can click on voicemail, record us a message from either your phone or your computer, and then we respond to those messages right here on the

Friday Q &A. Yes. Well, babe, Lent has started. It has. We don't do that.

No. But I did ask this poll question, who was going to be participating in Lent?

It's not just a Roman Catholic thing. Even some Protestants do it. Yes. So, I'm going to read you the results of that poll question a little bit later on.

But our first question does have to do with Roman Catholicism. Okay. So, this is

Zach from Surprise, Arizona. Hi, Pastor Gabe. I sent this as a voicemail before the holidays, but the chaos of your top stories in 2025, through all of that, it never got answered.

Not sure what happened. But here we go again. I don't even remember this question in the voicemail, so I totally missed it.

What are some key points to hit when speaking with Roman Catholics?

There is a couple at our church who we've recently become very close with.

The wife is a believer, solid as they come, but her husband professes to be a

Roman Catholic. He attends a Reformed Baptist church, hears the gospel on a weekly basis, but still holds a strong conviction of the infallibility of the church, veneration of Mary and the saints, and even transubstantiation.

I've seen the divide this has had within their marriage and in parenting their young daughter.

I'm curious if you have any pointers as to how to have these discussions with him. We love this family deeply, and we want to help him see his error and come to a true saving knowledge.

Grace and peace to you and your family and your church. So, this is real complicated,

Zach. I want to tell you, yeah, here's a great formula that you can follow to evangelize to a

Roman Catholic, but these conversations are always different. They are. I don't know what you're going to start on, like what's going to trigger the conversation anyway.

What topic are you going to begin on? Do you need to swerve it to a different topic? Is he going to be the one to bring it up?

Are you going to bring it up? So there are various different ways in which you could enter this kind of conversation, but here's two things that you need to have ready before you enter into this kind of conversation.

First of all, you need to know your doctrine. Yes. That is helpful. Exactly. You need to know what you believe as a

Christian and what the Bible says, especially having certain passages of scripture memorized.

Things like Romans 4, 5, to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Romans 5, 1, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2, 8, and 9, for by grace you have been saved through faith and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast.

Also a good one. And that's just some examples. But you need to know what you believe and be very well grounded in it.

And if you can't remember the whole verses, maybe just remember the references and pull them up.

Or you can have like notes, like I have a thing on my phone that says that you can take notes on it and then you can write the references there or even a link there and then it automatically takes you to help you get there faster.

Right. So just some thoughts. Because the thing that's going to be the most convincing will be what the Bible says.

Oh yes. It's going to be a lot of his tradition versus a lot of your knowledge of scripture.

And scripture is going to win out on that. If it comes to his conversion toward recognizing the errors of Roman Catholicism and the truth of what the

Bible says, you need to rest mostly upon what scripture says.

But also understanding the basics of your own doctrine. So as Protestants, we believe in the five solos of the

Protestant Reformation. So according to scripture alone, which is our highest authority, Roman Catholics are going to believe that tradition is just as authoritative as scripture.

In fact, scripture comes from their tradition. That's what they're going to argue. We wouldn't even have the

Bible if it wasn't for our tradition. Some Roman Catholics will go there. Understanding that we're saved by the grace of God alone, by faith in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

I combined two solos in there, but yeah. I was thinking so, yeah. By faith alone in Christ alone would be separating them out.

But anyway, yeah. Understanding the basics of what we believe, what we understand about our doctrine.

Because of course, the Roman Catholics are going to add things to that. It's never by faith alone, it's faith plus works.

So number two. So number one, you need to know your own doctrine. Number two, you need to be aware of some of the main tenets that Roman Catholics believe.

So it would be wrong to say that a Roman Catholic does not believe in Christ or the cross.

Right. Of course they do. Of course. In fact, you can hear the message of the gospel in a

Roman Catholic church. Yes. That's not the problem. Right. The problem is all the other things that come on top of that.

So that the gospel gets lost or hidden or minimized. And so when your friend is talking about certain things like grace, he's going to say that he believes in grace.

But is it grace alone? Or is it grace plus works? Is it faith alone?

Or is it faith plus all these other things that I have to do to merit or maintain or work my salvation?

Is it in Christ alone? Or is it also Mary and the saints?

Or what my priest says? Or what the Pope says? Is it by scripture alone?

Or is it all this other tradition on top of that as well? As I kind of mentioned. Right. So those are some things you need to be aware of regarding what

Roman Catholics believe. You need to know your own doctrine. You need to know what they believe. And there's some good resources that you can go to to look that kind of thing up for the gospel.

Costi Hinn's ministry. Yes. Has some great things on there about Roman Catholicism, especially when it comes to transubstantiation.

So for those who are not aware, transubstantiation is the belief that the bread and the cup literally transform into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus.

Right. In the mass, in the Roman Catholic communion. Right. I did a video on that not long ago.

So if you go to the what channel and you look for the video that I did, which was called a shocking admission by a

Catholic priest. So that whole video goes through transubstantiation and what scripture actually says in response to it.

Because often the Roman Catholic response is going to be, well, Jesus said, this is my body.

Right. Jesus said, this is my blood. So who am I going to believe? I'm going to believe you or am

I going to believe Jesus? That it really does become his body and it really does become his blood. Well, they're missing some things that scripture says about that.

And so that video will take you through those things as well. If you're looking that up. Yeah. A couple of things that I wouldn't mind putting in.

Okay, sure. Well, you are a former Catholic. Yes. So, okay. Yes. So the first thing is just like there are many different beliefs under, say,

Baptists umbrella. Yeah. You know, it's good to ask them for what they believe rather than telling them they believe this.

And if you kind of have to get it to a point where you have them admit to, oh yeah,

I pray to the saints or I pray to Mary. And then you can explain that as, okay, well, they're not able to, you know, go from that standpoint rather than, well, you pray to Mary and the saints and you worship them and that sort of thing, because they don't look at it as worship.

Even though that's essentially what they're doing. Right. They don't even look at it as prayer. Even though the Roman Catholic catechism literally says that they pray to Mary.

Right. Yes. Yes. And so. These are like the layman talking points that Roman Catholics will constantly.

Right. Fall back on. Yeah. And then the other thing is I don't recommend attacking all the points at once.

Maybe just like one or two to begin with. And then eventually as their eyes start opening up like mine did, it was very like, it was just enlightening to be like, oh, well, that's not true.

Then what else is not true? And they'll start looking and being hungry for what else is, what else did

I misunderstand? Yeah. You know, and what else does the Bible say that we were misled kind of thing.

And so that really gets them not feeling under attack.

And especially since you love them and their family, it's good to do it in a non hostile way.

Yeah. But it's very easy to offend because this is what we've known all our lives.

This is what our whole family does. This is generations and generations of doing this.

And so how are all these people wrong? And so it's good to come about it from a loving perspective.

Right. Yeah. You're not going to get very far if you jump right into it going, well, the Pope is the Antichrist. Yeah. So that doesn't really fly very far.

It's not going to get you far in that conversation. Unless it depends on which Pope you're talking about.

But I digress. Yeah. Because your grandfather who was Roman Catholic, he didn't like Francis.

Through and through he was Roman Catholic. And he up and left the mass during one of the times that the priest was quoting the

Pope. Oh, he was just like, no, not that guy left. Well, at that time, you had two posts to pick from because you had

Benedict and Francis at the same time. Right. So and he was just not having it.

Yeah. So anyway, and coming back to scripture, as I said, again, and one of those things that if your

Catholic friend is talking about certain things that they believe or even what

Jesus said about something or whatever, ask the question like, where is that in the

Bible? So praying the rosary, for example. Yeah. Okay. You pray the rosary, you're praying to Mary, where does the

Bible tell you to do that? So that's a way that you bring it back to scripture. Now you're putting it on them to have to establish who is the authority regarding this teaching.

Right. Is it because the Pope said it or is it because the scripture actually said it?

Jesus said it this way in the Bible. And so we're supposed to pray like this. Right. And part of that prayer does not include praying to his mom.

Right. Or asking even asking his mom for prayer. Hailing to her. Yes, exactly.

So anyway, just kind of some pointers there. Hopefully we'll help you out in that conversation. But I'm glad that you desire to want to help your friends see the truth.

And thank you for writing back. We appreciate that so much. So sorry for. Yeah, definitely. Right. Sorry. I don't know how we miss the voicemail.

I don't know. Because usually I see the voicemails even faster than I see the emails.

Yeah. But not that one. This next one comes from Rick. He says, good morning, Pastor Gabe.

Long time listener, first time emailer. Oh, yay. I hope this finds you and your family well in the hope of making things easier to find.

I'll list my question for your show in the next paragraph and provide some context for the Preacher Boys podcast in light of your comments on the

February 6th episode that I just finished. So this was the last Q &A that I did. I did it without you.

But it was somebody who emailed in and said that I had responded to the Preacher Boys.

I guess it was on X. It was a comment that I left on X. Okay. And then they actually responded to me in a video.

Oh. But I didn't know which video it was. I did find the video that I responded to when

I left that comment on social media, but I did not find the video where they said something to me. And I asked the person if you could find it.

And they said, no, it was between January something and January something. I didn't want to watch 10 videos to try to figure out where that was.

So anyway, I had just talked about how the Preacher Boys podcast. Well, one of the things that I said about it was, keep that name or that title to be subversive.

So they're really not interested in preaching the gospel or anything like that. They're called the

Preacher Boys podcast because they want you to think, oh, there's something credible about that. In the meantime, they're going to pull the rug out from under you and go, no, we're not actually evangelistic at all.

Oh, okay. So just like the New Evangelicals, which is not really an evangelical site.

Right. They're totally liberal and opposed to everything Christian, everything biblical Christianity, pro -LGBTQ and all this other kind of thing.

Awesome. And then there's the Baptist News Global, which is not Baptist.

It's hardly even news. It's more like a gossip rag. Okay. And they're just liberal on everything.

Anyway, so that was what I mentioned about the Preacher Boys podcast. Well, Rick here gives a little bit more context into this podcast and where it came from.

Okay. So before getting to his question, he says the Preacher Boys podcast was started by former independent fundamentalist

Baptist Eric Skwarczynski. I think I'm pronouncing that right. Back around 2020.

At the time, he was a professing Christian, also reformed, if my memory serves me correctly, based on interviews that I heard him give on various podcasts, and was exposing the sexual abuse that was in segments of the

IFB movement. The term Preacher Boy is used in those circles to refer to a younger man that is serving to later become a preacher, not necessarily a pastor.

He seemed to be using that name to appeal to those who likewise left or had questions about things in the

IFB and was exposing the evil that was going on in corners of that circle. Yeah.

A lot of bad stuff going on in the independent fundamentalist Baptist movement. There's some good churches out there.

Definitely. That are IFB. I have some personal friends who are IFB preachers. Yes. Yeah.

A lot of abuse. There's also the other spectrum. Yes. Right. There's a lot of abuse that happens there too.

In October of 2021, Rick goes on to say, Eric announced that he had deconstructed.

It seems as though his target is bigger than the IFB these days, though I admittedly haven't kept up with his material as much since he publicly renounced his faith.

It's truly a heartbreaking story. While he could have changed the name to make it clear he's not a

Christian resource, I don't think his choice in name was necessarily deceptive. Okay. I appreciate that, especially given the origin of the show.

Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to read my email. God bless you in your ministry, in your local church and the work that you do for what?

Well, I appreciate you listening and being a first time emailer. Definitely. That's so fun.

That's great. So here was his question. Rick had a question attached to this as well. Okay. What is the difference between complementarianism and patriarchy?

Which one do you think is most faithful to scripture? I think it depends on who you're talking to.

It really does. What their definition is. Now, I know that I've got lots of reformed friends who will say that there is a vast difference between complementarianism and patriarchy.

They will say, this is usually the whisper that you hear, especially among reformed

Baptist, especially upon, especially among very radical reformed Baptist. But they will say that complementarianism is really just soft egalitarianism.

Okay. So it is allowing women to have a certain kind of leadership role.

They just can't have the highest leadership role. As long as there's still a guy in charge, a woman can have all these other kinds of roles, even preaching roles, as long as she submits to the authority of the guy.

Okay. As long as there's still a man in authority. And that's the way that they will argue complementarianism is playing out.

Okay. Whereas patriarchy is just straight up. The man's in charge. It's patriarchy.

Of everything? I guess. Yes. Men are, by their nature, supposed to be the leaders.

Right. So they need to hold those governing roles, not just in the church, but even in government, not just in the home, but even in society.

So that would be like a hard patriarchy sort of a perspective. Right. Okay.

Now, what's the difference between the two of these? I'm going to argue that there's not any difference between the two of them.

And it's like you said, it just depends on who you talk to. Definitely. There are ways that I feel like the word complementarianism covers certain things that patriarchy doesn't.

At the same time, I do acknowledge that complementarianism really just came about because people were tired of the word patriarchy and patriarchy become too offensive.

And so can we help people to see this concept better without coming back to this term patriarchy, which, like I said, there's some things that the term patriarchy itself just really doesn't cover.

So you could argue that patriarchy covers men need to be the pastors in church, but not really.

Because patriarchy in and of itself is just talking about the family structure. Right. Like when we talk about the patriarchs,

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Right. We talk about founding fathers, or so to speak.

We're making some sort of reference to patriarchy. That's a hierarchy in the home is generally the way that word applies.

It's not so much in the structure or the leadership of the church, nor does it have to do with the way we would operate in government institutions, even in society.

So you can see in patriarchy a model, it starts in the home, and then you can kind of move out from there in other places where this structure would apply.

As God has created men and women for certain roles, men are supposed to be in those leadership positions.

Even in governing positions, even when it comes to law enforcement. You don't want women on the front lines in battle.

Right. You want men to be in those positions. And when you start giving women guns or swords or whatever else, and you're having them fight, we're actually less protected than when men are the ones that are fighting.

So people argue that this all kind of falls under the umbrella of patriarchy. But admittedly,

I just don't think patriarchy as a term really goes that far. I'm not opposed to using it.

I'm certainly not a person that thinks, well, that word's just too hard. It offends too many people. And so we need to stop using it.

You're not really one to pull punches. I'm not. I think that's pretty well established.

I'm not going to pull punches. You look at somebody like Russell Moore. So Russell Moore used to be the president of the

Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Or the ERLC. Yes, what a mouthful.

Now one of the lead editors. He's not the editor in chief anymore of Christianity Today.

He's moved into another position. I can't remember what it is. But anyway, we've seen this trajectory of Russell Moore over the years become a lot more egalitarian.

And confessionally, he's probably going to say that he's complementarianism, but he's really not.

He's very much on the egalitarian side now. Just he's pulling his punches.

Right, definitely. But there was one. He has for a long time. Yeah, I mean, he's been on this trajectory for a while.

But there was a time about 20 years ago, and you can still look up this article, in which Russell Moore wrote about complementarianism.

And he said, let's be realistic. Complementarianism really is just patriarchy.

So at one time, even he acknowledged that. And those who are liberal, who are on the feminist side of things, when they hear the word complementarianism, they think patriarchy.

Right. Sort of like, oh, yeah, you guys are just masking patriarchy, and you're introducing it with a new word.

So when it comes down to it, I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You're going to have some people that are going to argue against it.

And mostly they argue against complementarianism because there are some of those, especially among the

Southern Baptist Convention, who are trying to manipulate the word to allow for women preachers. Yes.

It's a minority in the SBC, but it's still happening. Yes. Where they're taking - And it's irritating enough that it draws your attention.

Yeah, right. So you think that everybody is. Right. I mean, even J .D. Greer does this. So J .D. Greer, who was president of the

SBC for three years from, when was it? 2018 to 2021.

I think so, yeah. 18 was when he was elected. 21, because there was no convention in 20 due to COVID.

Right. So 21 was when he eventually left office. He got to hold it for three years. And he was the one that called it in 2020, but I digress.

Yeah, sure. So he could hold on to it for one more year. Exactly, yes. That's right. Anyway, he holds this soft complementarian position.

So he'll say, as long as a man is in the pastoral role or in the elder's roles or in the overseer position, a woman can preach and teach as long as she stays under the authority of that overseer who has to be male.

And he has endorsed the books. Like he's written blurbs of books that have been written by women pastors.

So he clearly does not have any true solid conviction over who's qualified to be a preacher and who's not.

He's also canceled church for many, many reasons. That's true. And condemned others who still met during 2020.

So, I mean. He's been Black Lives Matter. Yeah. Yeah. He's been for wokeness before he was against it.

Yeah. Now he's actually like writing articles and doing videos about how wokeness is dangerous. Well, he introduced it into the

SBC. Yeah. He was there in that. He was the president in that 2019 convention in Alabama, which introduced resolution.

Was it nine? Yeah, I think so. Resolution nine, where the critical race theory and intersectionality are these analytical tools that we should be using in our churches, introducing wokeness into the

SBC. I still don't understand. I mean, I still can't figure out if he does it just to stir and keep him kind of like with attention.

Getting attention. Getting attention, yeah. Or if he's really feels that way, you know what

I mean? I think he's a weather vane. And he's - Whichever way the wind blows. Whichever way the wind blows.

Yeah. I mean, I think he's genuine. And this really goes for any kind of teacher that falls into some bad doctrine, either for a period of time or it lasts their ministry or whatever.

It's like Martin Lloyd Jones said, the heretics were never these diabolical men who just latch onto these lies and be like, we're going to fool everybody.

We're going to introduce now this false doctrine. We're going to change what everybody believes. You know, that's not who the heretics are.

Right. The heretics were not deliberate liars. They were mistaken men.

Yeah. So they had this idea. They got this idea in their head. They thought it was the truth.

And then they looked at scripture and everywhere they looked in the Bible, they saw this idea that they had.

And they thought this is the way that this needs to be taught. And this is the way that everybody else needs to go. And wokeness did that to a lot of people.

Yes. To a lot of preachers. Yes. I'm grateful to see that a lot of the guys who were led astray by it have come back around since then, even if they haven't apologized for it.

Right. Even if it hasn't been a, yeah, look guys, that was awful. Sorry about that.

My mistake, my mistake. Right. Yeah. I'm glad they've come back away from that. But anyway, it wasn't some diabolical choice that they made.

Yeah. It was wrong. They needed to be removed from their positions.

Yeah. Because of this bad doctrine that they were introducing into the church. But it wasn't that they were like, we're just going to upset everything.

Right. They thought they had good intentions. Right. Yeah. Now there are true charlatans.

That seems like a contradiction to say true charlatans. There are charlatans out there.

They - Genuine charlatans? That's even worse. There are charlatans who know they're lying.

Yes. They know they're lying. Yeah. Benny Hinn knows when he whacks you with his jacket, he's not curing you of cancer.

Right. He knows that. Right. It's exactly why the Benny Hinn ministry screens people before they bring them up on stage.

Anybody who has an obvious disability, we're not going to bring them up because we're not really going to be able to make them walk and throw away their crutches.

Right. That's not really going to work. He knows that. So he's a charlatan because he knows he's lying, but he's doing it anyway.

And he probably does think that the lie is leading to some good.

Right. Sure. Because if I lie to somebody and they accept Jesus, then wasn't that a good thing?

Right. So he probably does justify it in his mind in some way, but he does know that he's lying.

He may justify it in whatever way, but he knows this is not true. And I can't really do what

I'm saying that I'm going to do. Yeah. Todd White is another one. That's what I was going to go with. Yeah. Yeah.

So I've done videos on him, that stupid leg lengthening trick thing that he does.

He knows he's not doing that. Right. It's why he's got the whole rolling the ankle technique.

The whole reason he does that is because he knows he's not actually growing out your leg to be the same length as the other one.

But again, it's like if I've convinced this person that I've actually straightened out their back and now they love

God and they become a Christian, well, didn't I do some? Yeah, right. They'll try to justify it.

And when Todd White stands in front of everybody and he says, I haven't told a lie in 18 years.

Oh, my goodness. I think he knows he's lying about that, too. Maybe in that moment, he's convinced himself that this is true, but somewhere in the back of his mind.

He's got some sort of memory loss or something. Yeah, it's deliberate amnesia.

Yes, yes. Intentional. That's it. I'm just not going to remember that I lied yesterday or that I'm lying to you right now.

Oh, my goodness. Anyway, so there are charlatans out there, guys, that they know they're lying.

But they're conning you may think that they can justify this with good reasons. But it's still a lie.

And Ephesians chapter five says that we're supposed to speak the truth in love. Chapter four, Ephesians four, speaking the truth in love.

Yes. If you are lying to somebody, you're not loving them. Right. That isn't love. Yes. If, as Paul says in Romans 13, that love is the fulfilling of the law, but you're lying and breaking the law.

Yeah. Then it doesn't matter how good the intentions. It doesn't matter that you're actually leading them to the truth.

They're going to figure out that it was all based off a lie. That's the problem. Right. And then everything falls apart.

Yeah. Because it has no solid base. It just crumbles. If you give them the gospel based on lies, the gospel part may be true.

But then you were using lies to get people to believe the gospel. Then at some point they're going to be looking at that going, well, what if that was also not true?

Right. And it's the old saying of what you win them with is what you win them to. Yes. If you're winning them with lies, then everything that they believe coming into the faith is not going to be the truth.

Right. And when something gets uncovered, well, you've set them on some shaky ground.

Everything's a lie then is what they start believing. Right. Or how much of this is lies and how much of this is actual truth.

Yeah. So how did we get on that? Because that was not Rick's question. Sorry, Rick.

Never know where the rabbit trail will take us. I hope you all enjoyed that trip.

Yeah. You may unbuckle your seatbelts now. Complimentarianism versus patriarchy.

That's what we were on. Yes. So listen, the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is where you find all of this stuff about patriarchy and the definitions that they have given.

And what statement is it? Is it the Nashville statement? That sounds right.

I know there is a Nashville statement. I'm pretty sure it's the statement on marriage. Okay.

So marriage being between a man and a woman, you're still going to get some things in there about what the roles of men and women are in the

Nashville statement. But you find that on the CBMW website.

I have to think in my head of the acronym. Oh, yeah. CBMW .org. And listen, a preacher like Doug Wilson is very heavy on patriarchy.

So somebody might think, well, Doug Wilson would be a guy that would be pro -patriarchy but anti -complementarianism.

Not exactly. No. Because one of his preachers, Joe Rigney, was on the council for the

Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. And he has nothing but positive things to say about CBMW. Yeah.

So don't just write off complementarianism as, oh, well, that was the soft patriarchy. It's really the same.

But I do believe that complementarianism will explain some things a little better than patriarchy does.

Yeah. Whereas patriarchy itself, I don't think has ever really been a doctrine that has had a good layout of exactly what this is.

Maybe it's more of a stem off of? Yeah. Right. OK. So you could say complementarianism kind of falls under the umbrella of patriarchy.

It would be under patriarchy rather than patriarchy under complementarianism.

Yes. Does that make sense? Yeah. OK. So yeah. Anyway, look it up at CBMW .org and you'll find the articles.

And the definitions that are established for complementarianism. Don't listen to anybody else tell you, they're like, well, complementarianism believes this.

No. Right. Understand what it was. And don't believe everybody who claims they're complementarianism.

Yes. Or they're complementarianism. Yeah. Right. See, this is the problem. There are some people who have poisoned the well.

Yes. By redefining this term. Right. And so just because they've twisted the term, don't just automatically look at that as, oh, well, we need to throw out complementarianism.

It's easier to say, now, what exactly do you believe? Yes. Rather than, oh, OK, I know what you are.

And then they're like, no, we're there. Right. I understand the criticisms against it.

Like I've seen where people have manipulated it and twisted it to mean something that it doesn't. But sure.

But at the same time, patriarchy gets abused, too. Yes, it does. You can't say that's been the perfect, flawless term that everybody's had right every time.

I am not oppressed, OK, people? I am not. I am very happy.

And I am a very independent, strong woman. And I do struggle sometimes, yes.

But I am happier where I am now than me being in charge of things.

I very much enjoy this role. And it brings me joy. And I realize that that is why

God has made us like we are. And we have strengths and weaknesses.

And my strengths are very, very strong. But they're stronger where I'm at.

Yeah. So if that makes sense. Yes. I am not oppressed. And we do believe, both of us believe in patriarchy.

That's right. And because of that, there's people that will come out online and go, well, Becky and all of Gabe's daughters are oppressed.

Poor Becky. And no, she's fine. Complementarianism being the understanding that men are created for certain roles.

Women are created for certain roles. Yes. And what men can do, women can't do.

Right. But what women can do, men can't do. Exactly. And yet we complement one another in our strengths and our weaknesses.

Right. And this is not just in a marriage, but even in the church. Right. So you look at Titus 2, verses one through six.

Well, even where it talks about young men. So further down, verse eight. So where you have older men mentoring the younger men, older women mentoring the younger women.

And there are certain things that men should not get involved with mentoring women on. And there are things -

Maybe guidance outside, but not intimate. Yes. Right. Not intimate details.

Yes. And there are areas where women are only mentoring women in some of those things, and shouldn't have any role in trying to mentor men in some of those things.

So that's complementarianism in a nutshell. Yeah. It's understanding it in that way. And you can't disagree with that.

That's exactly what the Bible says about it. And patriarchy is something that could be defined exactly the same way.

But just like complementarianism can be abused, like I said, so can patriarchy. Yes. There are abusive men that have lorded themselves over women.

Yes. And have made patriarchy look bad. Right. Just like there have been people who have manipulated the term complementarianism and made that look bad.

Right. It's going to happen. But go back to the original definitions and look at how those things were actually defined.

Don't listen to what other people, just their own biases for or against. I mean, nobody actually looks stuff up anymore to define things.

We've got AI. Go with the flow of what they feel. So that has a lot of things, you know, messy, quite messy.

Yes. We can just ask AI though. Yeah, we could. AI will tell us everything. But do they? No, they've got to have feelings.

And this is what I think and believe. And it's not true. This next question comes from Adrian.

Hello, Pastor Gabe. As a new pastor in your church. New. I've been here a little over two years.

Yes. Just to clarify. But true. I'm newer here. In this church. Yes. In this church. Yes.

As a new pastor in your church, how did you determine the vision for your church? As an associate pastor looking to be a lead pastor eventually, what is the best way to demystify this idea?

Oh. So I remember when I first became a pastor. So this was the church that I pastored in Kansas.

I was ordained in 2010. I became the senior pastor in 2012. And shortly after that, there's an older woman in my congregation named

Joy. And Joy asked me, what is your vision for this church?

What is the vision that I think she even went as far as saying, what is the vision that you are casting for this church?

Yes. You've probably heard this expression, vision casting. And I was a little bit taken aback by the question just because I thought it was well established that I was against this whole vision casting idea.

Like I thought that was pretty well known when I was hired for the job. I'm not that guy. I find the whole vision casting thing to be very silly.

And actually, in part of my ministry, I had been speaking out against it. Because this isn't the way that a pastor leads the church.

God is not telling a pastor, here's what you're going to do with your church. And then he's saying this to the congregation.

And then everybody has to follow his vision. Right. So that if you are not following the pastor's vision, well, it's the same as if you were disobeying

God. Right. Okay. That's the way that gets you. Stephen Furtick, T .D. Jakes.

These are examples of preachers who have cast visions for their church. Bill Hybels has done this.

Rick Warren was real big on this. And so I just wasn't like, that's not how this is going to go.

We're going to be a Bible teaching church. I'm just going to teach scripture. So I was taken aback by this question.

Okay. Casting vision for the church. What does this mean? So I think we had a business meeting afterwards, somewhere after a meeting for all of the members in which it was said to them to some degree, here is my vision for this church.

We're going to be a Bible teaching church. This is who we are. So everything that we do, the way that we're structured, the way that our constitution is written, everything, we need to evaluate it and see that it all is in submission to what the

Bible says. If there's something in here, in our polity or anything else that we see that goes against scripture, then we need to change it.

And so we did that pretty much for the next eight years. Yeah. That I was there. We were constantly changing things.

The new constitution got delayed because we brought another church in with us that merged with us.

Right. And the old constitution is what we followed to bring that church in and even bring that pastor on our staff so that he was still able to be paid.

Right. Still able to be a paid pastor with us. And it wasn't our church and that church. We were all now one church.

Right. Having merged together. Right. So the old constitution served us in that way. And then after that worked out, then it was kind of trying to figure out, okay, how do we keep the good things in this constitution?

What do we got to change when we make the new constitution? There were various things that happened, including having to remove an elder that occurred there because he was committing adultery.

Yes. And all different kinds of things just sidelined the process of being able to complete everything that I wanted to do.

Right. So when the new pastor came in after me, I remember him calling me up and saying, hey, where's our constitution?

Yes. And I pointed him to the website and said, okay, you see this right here?

This is the constitution. This was the functioning constitution that we were using to change everything that we needed to change.

And then once we had it settled there, then we were going to draft a new constitution. But we were still in the process of even restructuring the deacon board.

Right. And we were going to use the deacons and the elders together too. And we were mostly military congregation.

And so there was a lot of deployments and there was a lot of moving people from different stations and stuff like that.

So anyway, there was just a lot. There was just a lot of movement that we could never get settled on it.

So anyway, go ahead. So then I told him that, listen, you really kind of have a good free reign of things.

Yeah. So I've left this in your hands in such a way that if you're bringing in any changes into the church, you're able to draft a constitution that is suited to whatever changes the church is undergoing.

I was in the process of bringing the church out of the Southern Baptist Convention and making them a 1689

Second London Baptist Confession Church. So Reformed Baptist, that's where I was going with it. Right. It was,

I think, only two years after Ryan got there after me. I think so, yeah. That he finished that process.

Yeah. So they were able, we left things in a way that he was able to draft that new constitution. Keep going.

That's right. Yep. To be now a Reformed Baptist Church as they are today. I was very proud of him.

He did a terrific job with all of that. But that was all the vision for the church. And then

I went to Texas, to First Baptist Church Lindale. And there, they already had everything established.

They were already good. Right. Everything was fine. And there were some things that I was brought on to change. Like specifically when

I was hired, I was told, you're going to come on and you're going to do this. So I did have like some direction that I was supposed to go and things that...

Was kind of expected. Right, exactly. Or hopeful. Exactly. I mean, it's what you're hiring a new pastor for.

Right. You're hiring him on to spearhead or lead a certain department or whatever. And then he's going to make changes within that department.

You expect that's going to happen. Right. And then coming here to Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Casa Grande.

And again, everything was already there. So they just needed a pastor.

And now I'm just coming in and I'm basically establishing the direction for the church from the pulpit.

Right. Because like we've talked about in our expository workshops, the pulpit is going to steer the direction of the church.

As goes the pulpit, so goes the rest of the church. That's what a shepherd does. Exactly. So I was given the liberty to be able to do what

I needed to do within certain parameters. Of course. And of course, I'm going to confer with the elders.

And what have you guys established here? I don't want to change too much. I just want to continue things the way that they were going, because everything really was going well here.

They just needed a pastor. So there were some things that we changed in the worship service. There's been some things that we've changed with regards to like, how are we going to grow?

Where are we going to go when we get beyond a certain size? So different things like that we talked about when I first came on.

But again, I'm coming onto a church that already has a good solid base. We are growing.

We are now bigger than our walls will allow us to be.

Yes. So we're having to find another place to go and meet. You've heard us talk about this for a while.

Well, we were able to compensate by knocking out some walls. Yes. For the time being.

We did outgrow the old space. Yes. Then we knocked out some walls. Now we've really outgrown the building.

Yes. There's nothing we can do left. Right. And it's flu season. And so a lot of people are out.

And if everyone were to come, we would be putting people outside at this point. Right.

Which is a great problem. Don't get me wrong. But it's still an issue.

And especially with parking. When everybody gets there. Yeah.

So there is a verse in Proverbs. It's Proverbs 29, 18. In the King James, this reads where there is no vision.

The people perish, but he that keepeth the law happy as he. You don't ever hear the second part, though.

The first part is the one that you always hear. Right. Without vision, the people perish. And this is what vision casters will use for their church.

Well, we have to have a vision. We have to have a direction we're going. God's given it to me. So you need to follow my direction.

Need to follow my vision. That's not what that verse means, though. It's without vision, the people perish, but he that keepeth the law happy as he.

What's the vision here? It's keeping the law. It's understanding what

God has said in the Bible. Yes. And doing what he has said. Exactly. So in the English Standard Version, where there is no prophetic vision, the people cast off restraint.

Where there is no understanding of what God has said in his word, the people just do whatever they want to do.

Yes. And that's really - Utter chaos. The way that preachers will manipulate that verse, that's really what they're doing.

They're casting off restraint. Right. So this is my vision, not following what the

Bible says necessarily, but what I want to do with this church. And everybody has to come in line with me.

But blessed is he who keeps the law. Blessed is the one who knows what God has said in his word and keeps it.

And so really the first direction that a church should be in is whatever the

Bible says, go that way. Examine your polity. Examine your worship on Sunday morning.

Examine who is filling certain roles. Are they biblically qualified? Right. I mean, these are all different kinds of questions you need to be asking.

Prayer. Exactly. Are we praying the right way? Yes. Are we partaking in the Lord's table the right way?

Yes. Are we practicing church discipline? There are so many things in your church that need examination according to the scripture before you're casting vision of any kind.

That has to come first. Yes. And when I first became a pastor, that's what

I did first. I looked at the church and I looked at scripture and I said, where are we off? And I spent eight years in that work.

And so God used that to shape me as a preacher that I'm able to serve in the role that I have now, which

I probably would not have done as, in fact, I can tell you, I would not have done as well in this environment that I'm in now without that experience that I had in that first church.

So this is the role of, I'm not going to say casting vision, but really the role of leadership when it comes to shepherding a church and guiding it in the direction that it is to go.

We have the parameters that have been set for us in the Bible. And there's plenty of work for you to do.

Oh, yes. Plenty for you to do. Even if you have a church that you're looking at it and you're going, great, our polity is biblically aligned.

Missions, we've got a good sense of missions. We understand the disciplinary process and we exercise it right.

Even if you've got everything laid out in the right way. So the three main marks of a healthy church are going to be the preaching of the gospel, expository preaching that comes from the pulpit specifically.

Yes. You have good expository preaching. You've got a right practice of the ordinances, the

Lord's table and baptism. And then you also have church discipline. And I would also argue that church discipline actually falls under the umbrella of right practice of the ordinances.

But anyway, a regenerative membership, recognizing people who come in and become members, they actually are

Christians, not anybody who signed the card or came forward after service.

Automatically becomes a member, you know. Or the one time they showed up. Yeah. So you have those three main things set for your church, expository preaching, right practice of the ordinances and church discipline.

And if you've got a church that's structured around that, there's still plenty for you to do many, many things for you to do when it comes to shepherding the people that have been entrusted to you and sanctifying them.

Yeah. Helping them grow in sanctification. As they sanctify you. Exactly. Lots of work to do, right?

Like there's never a time when that should ever plateau. Right. Oh, okay. Well, we're good and sanctified now.

So I've got to find something else for me to do. Right. Every week I've got visitations that I'm doing.

I've got phone calls that I'm making. I've got notes and rehearsal and sermon preparation that I'm doing every week.

There's always things to do. I'm never out of things to do. Right. And this is the direction of the church.

We're going in the direction of Christ. Yes. We're focused on Christ and heading toward him. Yes. That's where we're going.

And doing it all together. Yes. Doing it together. Yes. In union, of like mind, in the spirit, same

Lord, same baptism, as talked about in Ephesians chapter four. And praise God for these things, seeing the way that he's working out in us.

Amen. Our evangelism to go out and bring more people in, you know, and there's also going to be those people who are going to look at their churches and they're going to realize there's some problems here.

And they are going to talk. If they're doing this a good and biblical way, they're going to talk with their pastors.

They're going to talk with some others. Things are not biblical here. How do we change this? They may be in that process a year or two before they finally get to the place where they're going.

Nothing's going to change. Right. And then they leave and they look for a church that is being biblical.

And that's how we've acquired some of our members. Yes. I'm never like quick to grab somebody and go, oh yeah, you want to come here?

Come on. Yeah. You have to have left your previous church in a right and biblical way. And then if I can see that you've done that and you've had those conversations, everything's good with the brothers or sisters that you've left, then welcome here.

Yes. And we're pleased to have you. But anyway, all of that to say, we're just constantly in the direction of Christ.

Amen. Turn to Christ and go. Amen. So I appreciate it,

Adrian. And thank you so much for your question. God bless you in what he has placed upon your heart to want to become a pastor.

Yes. It's a great thing. Because as it said in 1 Timothy 3 .1, a person who desires to be an overseer, that man desires a noble task.

So it's a good thing to want to desire that. It is. And I hope that your church sees the gifts that God has given you to be able to fill that role as well as you shepherd and lead.

All right, folks. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Oh, I was going to mention the poll question. Oh, yeah.

The poll question. So here was our poll. It's Lenten season. Ash Wednesday was just this past Wednesday.

So I asked this question on X. Are you a Protestant? And are you planning to observe

Ash Wednesday and Lent? And here's what I got. First, I asked the question this way.

I'm a Protestant. Yes. I'm a Protestant. No, I'm not a Protestant. Yes. And I'm not a

Protestant. No. Okay. Okay. So giving everybody the chance to answer this question. Yeah. Are you planning to observe

Ash Wednesday and Lent? I'm a Protestant. Yes. 10 .5%.

Oh, I didn't mention the total votes. Yeah. 1 ,253 total votes. Wow.

That's a lot of votes. That's how many votes we had on this poll. Are you a Protestant and planning to observe

Ash Wednesday and Lent? Of the Protestants, those who said yes, 10 .5%. That's a lot of people.

Those who said no, 81 .7%. So that was obviously the vast majority.

Yes. And then those who were kind of observing the poll. I'm not a Protestant. Yes, I plan on observing

Lent. That was 2 .6%. Okay. So that might be somebody who's either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox or somebody who's

Protestant, but is saying that they're not. Oh, okay. Like I encounter

Lutherans. Yes. Who will say, I'm not really Protestant. It's like, yeah, you are. Especially a

Lutheran. Why are you saying that you're not Protestant? Or Episcopalian, somebody mainline.

Yeah. Will sometimes say, oh, I'm not really a Protestant. Yeah, you are. So then, and then the last one,

I'm not a Protestant. No, I'm not observing Ash Wednesday or Lent. And that was 5 .1%.

So yeah, the vast majority. 81 .7 % said that they are

Protestant and not partaking in Ash Wednesday or Lent. Well done.

That's the correct way to go. Yes. Anyway, appreciate you guys listening.

And one more thing that I want to mention. Okay. Our eldest daughter. Oh, just turned 18.

This week. Yep. On Tuesday, our oldest daughter is 18 years old. Can you imagine when we started this program?

She was like seven. Yeah. Isn't that crazy? That is insane.

And here she is, my first 18 year old. God help me. Amen. No, but seriously, please pray for her.

She is saved. And our first baptized. Yes. And she is really wanting to give

God glory and honor in her adulthood. And I love that.

Yes. I love that's her goal. Right. So if you guys don't mind praying for her, she would love the prayers.

Yep. Graduating in May. Yes. And then going on to do who knows what after that.

Yep. She's got some ideas. Up in the air. Just not where it's going to be. Yeah. And that's fine.

You can send emails to the program when we understand the text at gmail .com. And if you go to the website, www .utt

.com and click on contact. At least for now, this is the limited time until we get all this ironed out.

But click on contact and there's the link to the voicemail right there as well. Yes. All right, babe, let's finish with prayer.

Yes, let's. Heavenly father, we thank you for this time together. And Lord, I thank you for sending your son,

Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Dying on the cross for us, being buried in a tomb, rising again from the grave so that all who believe in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

May that message of the gospel be something that we continue to remind ourselves of every day. And we share with others because it's only by faith in Jesus Christ that a person can be forgiven their sins and have everlasting life being rescued from the judgment that we all deserve because of our sin.

But God has provided a way for salvation through Christ alone.

Help us to be bold in that message as we share it with others, that they too can be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.