May 30, 2025 Show with Michael Considine, Esq., Jeff Martin, & Jared Columbel on “Fighting the Injustice of DEI in Court”

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and the Day’s Topic

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this 30th day of May 2025.

Before I introduce my guests for today and the topic we are going to be addressing, I wanted to let you know that if you missed yesterday's extremely important interview with my personal physician, Dr. Joel Yeager of heritagefamilyhealth .org, along with Dr. Daniel O 'Rourke and Ernie Springer, who, the three of them, co-authored the book Coronavirus and the Leadership of the Christian Church, A Sacred Trust Broken.

Well, they were guests yesterday to offer a rebuttal to a recent article on ByFaith Online, which is hosted by the PCA denomination, Presbyterian Church in America. The article was written by Dr. Gregory Poland, who is a PCA elder, member of the Board of Directors for Westminster Theological Seminary, and director of the Mayo Clinic's vaccine research group.

Well, in that article, Dr. Poland toes the party line on the coronavirus and my three guests yesterday believe Dr. Poland is thereby perpetuating lies that are extremely dangerous to the health and lives of the populace.

So that link, that audio link, is now available on irontrepanzyrantradio .com. Just click Browse, and that will be right now anyway, as of today, the first audio link at the top of the page. If you are listening in a future date when that will not be the case, just type in Jaeger into the search engine, Y-E-A-G-E-R, that's the last name of my doctor who was the guest, one of the three guests yesterday.

If you type in Jaeger, that will be one of the interviews I've conducted with him that will come up. So I hope that you not only listen, but you pass that important information on. Today, I'm excited to have three first-time guests to discuss a very important issue, another very important issue.

Many of you may have naively believed that with the election of President Donald Trump, that DEI would have vanished from the scene and that we would no longer have to grapple with this horrible ideology of DEI.

And we're going to have our guests explain exactly what that is and why they are involved in a court case involving that horrific and wicked ideology known as DEI. But my guests to discuss this today are Michael Considine, attorney at law.

He's a Christian attorney in Philadelphia handling religious liberty cases. We also have Jeff Martin, president of New Mexicans for Civil Rights. And we also have Jared Columbell, co-host with his wife Cora of the Christian podcast Dedicated Devoted.

They're all going to be addressing fighting the injustice of DEI in court, an evil that has yet to be eradicated. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you three men to the program for the very first time.

First of all, let me offer my greetings to Michael Considine, attorney at law, who actually arranged the guests for today. It's great to have you on the program for the first time, Michael.

Yes, it's a pleasure to be here.

And Jeff Martin, it's great to have you on the program.

Yeah, thank you, Chris. I'm excited to be with you.

And Jared Columbell, did I pronounce it correctly? Because I had already forgotten how you told me to pronounce it.

No, Chris, you did a fantastic job. It's a pleasure to be here today. And we're excited to unpack this very interesting topic.

OK, great. And if anybody has any questions, you may email them to Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com. Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter involving this subject. Well, first of all, let's remind our listeners, Michael Considine, what is DEI?

DEI is a I guess I would call it a strategy to implement certain values into every area of life, including the workplace and even the federal government.

And it actually stands for diversity, equity and inclusion.

Yes.

And tell us about how this insidious ideology, if you will, is involved in a court case that you are involved in representing our other two guests that involves a a nuclear laboratory.

Yes, well, based on DEI policies, a program called HR 008 was implemented. Which was used to implement DEI policies, and based on that, an employee resource group at one of the largest nuclear laboratories in the country was told it could not have a statement of faith.

It was a Christian group with a Christian statement of faith. It was not permitted to have that. And not only that, but it was not permitted to have a disciplinary clause under which it was allowed to require the leaders to have a certain code of conduct, and they could be removed if there were things that would violate the Bible.

This is a Christian group, and it just required the leaders to ascribe to a Christian statement of faith, but others in the group did not have to. And when they refused, they were no longer approved as a employee resource group.

And so they could no longer have anyone sit on the executive council, which was a council where you could influence the organization to the director, the lab director. They couldn't use certain facilities.

They couldn't use the campus bulletin or emails or Sandia Daily News or advertise events on Sandia Media or hold recruiting events or host speakers or events or get funding, even though there were many other employee resource groups which were still permitted to do all these things.

Now, can you explain in a little bit more detail what an employee research group is?

It's an employee resource group. These are groups which many large employers have that allow employees who have similar interests to form a group for their benefit. So for instance, there could be a Hispanic group, a Black American group, a women's group, and there was a LGBT group.

And so these various groups have different programs that allow people of shared interest to have speakers and conduct other activities, usually on the premises of the employer.

Now this organization, which you are filing a lawsuit against, is a nuclear laboratory that's based in Albuquerque, New Mexico, correct?

Yes.

And how did you, as an attorney in Philadelphia, how did you get involved in the case?

Well, I'm admitted to the bars of Pennsylvania and Colorado, and I was involved in ministry in Durango, Colorado, with a man, and he moved to Albuquerque. And he told me about this situation. And so I think I was contacted by Jeff Martin, and that's how it happened.

Now, Jeff Martin, since you just were mentioned, why don't you pick up where Michael left off and specifically discuss how you are involved in this case?

Yes. Thanks, Chris. I'm involved in a couple of different ways. I'm a former employee of Sandia National Laboratories, the nuclear lab we're discussing. And I was a leader in this networking group. It's called Christians in the Workplace Networking Group.

We use CWING for the acronym. And I experienced many of the, frankly, the discrimination against our Christian group, many of the events where we were discriminated against while I was serving as a leader in.

The group.

We were told we had to remove these pieces that were very important to us of our business plan, which required that our leaders agree to a statement, a Christian statement of faith, an orthodox Christian statement of faith that is very close to the Nicene Creed.

And also, we were regularly discriminated against. They wouldn't allow us to have speakers come that they considered divisive. An example was the gentleman who discovered Sodom because he's a Christian.

So we... Oh, I've had him. I've had him on the program.

Yes. And he's from Albuquerque.

Yes. In fact, yeah. He was on the faculty at Trinity Christian College.

Yes, yes. We had to... We couldn't host that in the facility at Sandia. We had to go to a church off-site to have the meeting. They wouldn't allow us to do that. So there were many examples like this.

They tried to force us to remove these requirements, which Jared and I and other leaders had determined were biblical principles that are out of the books of 1 Timothy and Titus for how you organize a Christian group.

And our membership was strongly with us that we needed to retain these requirements. So we stood our ground, and Sandia and their DEI group started to make noise that this was a legal issue. And the gentleman that Michael referred to was in my church there, and he referred me to Michael, and that's...

I called Michael, because none of us were lawyers, engineers, scientists, and many others, but no lawyers. So that's how we reached out to Michael and got him involved in this.

By the way, just so our listeners can hear that fascinating interview that I conducted with archaeologist Dr. Stephen Collins, who was just mentioned before. It wasn't mentioned by name, but he is the archaeologist that is absolutely convinced he has discovered the actual site of Sodom, the notorious city in the Old Testament that along with Gomorrah was destroyed by God, by fire.

If you type in the search engine at ironsharpensironradio .com, and you type in there Stephen Collins, and Stephen with a V as in victory, Stephen Collins, you will discover his audio of the interview I conducted with him, discovering the city of Sodom, the fascinating true account of the discovery of the Old Testament's most infamous city.

So you will likely be fascinated by that interview. So that was a providential connection that I didn't even know that we had. Yeah.

And Chris, I think that's now a well-established fact that what Collins discovered is actually.

Sodom.

Yeah.

In fact, just quickly, I was utterly astonished watching a National Geographic—I believe it was a National Geographic TV special. It might have been a History Channel, but I think it was National Geographic.

But they had a special called The Lost Cities of the Bible, and one of the episodes was with Dr. Collins. And I was absolutely astonished in a positive way that at the end of the program, the host of this program that made no indication that he was a Christian or a believer of any specific religion, he said that he began the interview with Dr. Collins with great skepticism, believing that he was going to be hearing just another bunch of myths and legends.

But he walked away wondering, looking at the site of Sodom with Dr. Collins that had received destruction that was more—the geological evidence was that it was more powerful than a nuclear explosion or something like that.

But the host said he was wondering, could this truly have been the hand of God? I was shocked, especially knowing of why Sodom and Gomorrah is so infamous. And this was a secular scientific program. So it was really a positive shock for me.

But anyway, I'm sorry I keep interrupting you.

No, it was good. It's all good. But this was something that, despite the strong technical argument that Collins has, we weren't allowed to discuss the scientific discovery at Sandia National Labs. So these were the kind of examples, the kind of things we were experiencing.

And there's many others under the auspices of DEI there. And I'll also just say that I've become quite a bit of a student of critical theory after learning this. And that is really the ideology behind all of this DEI emphasis that you see in our government and across businesses in the country.

Now, just to once again clarify, the Christian group that you lead or led used the facilities of this nuclear laboratory, as other organizations did and do. But your group was singled out and barred from use unless you adjusted your mission statement or description of your organization to the point where it was unrecognizable as a Christian one.

Yes. OK, exactly right.

And Jared, if you could please chime in with your own personal connection here.

Yeah, so just to give a little bit of context, this group, I had been a member of C-Wing since I had joined Sandia.

And please explain what C-Wing is.

Absolutely. It's Christians in the networking group. It's going to be the networking group that we're talking about today. And these networking, well, let's call it an employee resource group. I think that that's the basis of vernacular that we should be using.

So employee resource groups are these officially sponsored employee groups that Sandia really designed to bring people in that had commonalities. Michael had mentioned that. And so C-Wing was actually born out of the need for the Christian worldview to be purported at Sandia.

It was a very divisive birth, by the way. It came about around in 1997 when a C-Wing event had occurred. So, again, that's Christians in the workplace networking group. What had happened was is there was other groups that had spawned up.

And at that time, there was a great need for the Christian worldview to be present at Sandia. I want to make sure that I put emphasis on this very clearly on why Sandia is fundamental and important in this conversation that we're having.

We talked a little bit about Sandia, its origins. Just to make it a little bit clearer, Sandia is one of the one of the premier federally funded research and development institutes that's really in charge of their highest their highest level task, in my opinion, is going to be their nuclear program.

And so what I had seen with this attack on C-Wing from its inception, its divisive birth, was this great hatred of the Christian worldview at Sandia. Sandia is known for recruiting from elite schools and from those elite schools are coming these elite ideologies.

We talked a little bit earlier about DEI. I'm going to be doing actually a podcast on this one because I think there needs to be something attached to DEI and that's the DEI lie. It's this worldview, this you could call it a theology of the world that thinks that we can have more equalness if we if we have more diversity.

And really what it does is it parses out people into different groups, into groups with commonalities and it separates them. It actually does quite the opposite of unity and it fragments people into these different disparate groups.

And so when it comes to the DEI lie, I think it's very important to understand why Sandia is important and how it is going to affect every single American, even the world, by holding on to these ideologies.

So from its inception, I think that Sandia had a great disdain for this employee resource group. To give a little bit of insight into that, there is a multitude of these employee resource groups at Sandia and they get some very specific things.

And we talked about that. They get resources from the company that can be funding. They're allowed to use their communication channels. They're allowed to go to the recruiting events. There is a lot of benefit of being an employee resource group.

And as I mentioned, Seawing from its inception has never really benefited from being a employee resource group because I believe that there is a great hatred at Sandia for this group. And I had been a member of it since I had been a Sandian.

I had joined in, I believe, 2010 or 2011. And just as a participant, I would show up to the various events that they had. Right. I identified with the biblical Christian worldview and I saw something very interesting back in, I believe, 2017.

That was a time where I was able to peer into this group and see how browbeating they were. Sandia had taken the systematic approach of trying to dismantle Seawing from its inception. And when I say systematic, Michael had mentioned H .R. 008.

That's a policy. The policy was actually just designed to help dismantle Seawing. Really what they were trying to do at Sandia. And I had seen this from the inside. And I know that Jeff can attest to this.

We had seen such disdain for the Christian worldview that not only would folks be reprimanded, but they would be censored. And I was one of those. I had the case will actually illustrate a numerous amount, a plethora of issues that Christians at Sandia had underwent.

And the reason why this is so important is if Sandia is in charge of helping with the nuclear strategy, with trying to ensure that we are a sovereign nation and we can protect ourselves, it's very important for folks listening to understand that the attack from within Sandia was a greater demonstrable effort by those who oppose our nation.

I was seeing a systematic approach of individuals who who had a great disdain for this country, trying to bring it down from within. Sandia directly supports the U .S. Air Force. The U .S. Air Force protects our sovereignty.

They also do a lot of great things for our allies around the nation or around the around the globe. And so it's very, very important to understand that this was just kind of the the the spear, the tip of the iceberg, the spear of the arrow.

This effort to eliminate Searing was just a greater attempt to try to subvert and to subdue truth. That's what Christians were doing at Sandia, is they were speaking truth. And anytime something came out that had a little bit of a Christian flair, it was instantly censored.

These are the kind of things that you'll find within this case that folks at Sandia were really going through. And so I think it's very important to understand where where Sandia is in relation to the overall protection of the U .S., specifically our sovereignty, and how these sort of things are eroding our ability to protect ourselves from within.

OK, let me just quickly take a listener question here before we go to our first commercial break. We have. Phyllis in Aqua Bog, Long Island, New York. And Phyllis says, is any significant member of the Trump administration aware of this?

Because as Chris Arnzen mentioned at the beginning of the program, the DEI was supposed to be eradicated from anything involved in the government. And that's a good question, because I I plan to send this recording of today's show to Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, who's been on my program twice before he was Secretary of Defense.

He was a Fox News employee, but he had not yet been appointed to that prestigious level of authority. And I'm going to I'm going to submit this to him via email, whether or not he even ever opens the email at this point in his life, because he's probably experiencing the most busy schedule that he's ever had in his entire life.

But it's worth a shot anyway. But why don't we'll start with Michael again. Do you know of any some significant person, as the listener says, involved in the Trump administration who is aware of this case?

Well, I don't know that any is, but we've already made many efforts to try to bring this matter before President Trump. And there have been letters written to him in Mar-a-Lago. I don't know if one went to Washington, but I've also contacted the Department of State.

And it's very urgent that we could see if we could get even just a two-page summary of this to President Trump, because I believe that he has the power to change the government's position. And that's because we're going up against essentially the Department of Energy, which is a federal agency, and their policies do not follow the law regarding religious discrimination.

So we want to get this before President Trump as soon as possible, even today, if we could, because we have an appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit, where we had an oral argument in January, and literally any day the court could rule.

And they could rule in our favor, they could rule against us. So part of the reason we're going on this program is to see if someone could assist us to somehow get this message to President Trump or to people who are in power to make a decision, because the Department of Energy is apparently not following the Trump stated goal of eliminating DEI in a federal government.

OK, well, we're going to go to our first commercial break. Once again, if you have any questions of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries, announcing that this September, I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m., I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pre-Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville.

Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 30 p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

For more details on the free pastor's luncheon, visit Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com. That's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio dot com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit TRBC Carlisle dot org.

That's TRBC Carlisle dot org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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I'm Simon O'Mahony, pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord and his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession. We embrace congregational church government and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost and the glory of our triune God.

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Radio. And don't forget, folks, CVBBS .com is now shipping worldwide. Well, welcome back to our discussion. We have three guests today, if you just tuned us in, who are discussing a very important legal case involving a nuclear laboratory in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

And the case involves this laboratory violating the rights of a Christian group that has been barred from using their facilities, unlike other organizations, has been barred from using their facilities unless they so adjust and rewrite and even abandon their statement of faith as a Christian organization to the point where it no longer even resembles a Christian organization.

They cannot use the facilities. And this organization is practicing the standards of DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion, basically a leftist ideology that is very destructive and dangerous to the well-being of society.

And we do have another question here from Boris, who is located in Pompton Plains, New Jersey. And Boris says, I was just curious if any of you have had threats of physical harm or otherwise from those who are associated with this laboratory or the DEI movement?

Well, certainly. Really?

I didn't work there, so I don't know the answer to that question, but maybe the other guests might know.

OK, well, and by the way, please, please, please announce who you are when you begin to speak, because we can't tell who you are.

Yeah, absolutely. This is Jared Kohlenbel. OK. And I think your listener was asking whether or not there was physical threats or intimidation. I think one of the things that this case is really articulating, and you started with the statement of faith, I would like your listeners to know that's integral to this case.

The statement of faith is our identity. It's built off of the biblical Christian worldview. And to alter any of that would mean to alter our beliefs. And so that's going to be central to this case. Regarding the disparate treatment, I don't want to say that there was physical intimidation, but there was most certainly retaliatory type of activity.

I, for one, no longer work at Sandia. And I can say one of the things that came out of the deposition process of this case is we got to see some of the back-end emails. And I knew, so I actually had become the chair of C-Wing, and I was only the chair for a very short period of time.

It was under my tenure that this went from being sort of an idea that Sandia Labs was going to censor us to sort of a full-blown, what I would call spiritual warfare attack. And that was the complete removal of C-Wing as a officially sponsored employee resource group, which really meant any of the benefits that I spoke about earlier were completely removed.

No opportunity to recruit. Most folks didn't know if they could live their faith out at work. Very difficult. And by the way, this is an area where you have it's a very secured area where you have to have a security clearance.

And so we're talking about a very secure environment where it's already difficult to work understanding the parameters of what you can and cannot do. And so regarding the disparate treatment, this case really does articulate a variety of different instances.

We talked about authors that weren't allowed to be brought in. I, for one, I had top performance two years in a row and I was told many things by managers. And I knew as soon as I joined C-Wing specifically as their chair that my career was over.

And as I had mentioned earlier, we got to see some of the back end communications. And part of this case, too, is some of the leadership that we we had touting this. Right. We had a sponsor, which was a associate lab director who had mysteriously disappeared.

It turns out that Sandia had an opportunity to sort of coax this individual out of his position so that we had no support. So I think that if you look pretty closely into this case, you're going to see a lot of really strong facts that demonstrate there was disparate treatment.

It can be found very easily if you just do a Google search. Just look for Christians in the Workplace Networking Group versus National Technology and Engineering Solutions of Sandia LLC. You'll find that there is a plethora of information out there regarding the disparate.

Treatment. Now, can you just repeat again the information about the person who's disappeared? I didn't quite follow what you were saying about that.

Yeah, so one of the things that these employee resource groups are afforded is they get high level sponsorship, that high level sponsorship is typically going to be somebody who is very high up in the leadership chain.

And so we actually had a great believer by the name of John Climo, who was our he was our sponsor and he was also an associate lab director. So that's one of the opportunities that's afforded to every employee resource group.

Another one is we get quarterly meetings with the lab director who reports directly to Congress. These are very important individuals who are able to help us push forward the things that are very important in relation to what that group stands for.

So John Climo was one of our sponsors. And when this new policy had come out, H .R. 008, it was very clear that Sandia was trying to get us to dismantle our statement of faith. They were saying, if you believe in that, that is discriminatory.

And we had conversations back and forth. This is a very long, enduring spiritual battle. As part of this process, we were going to our sponsor and having ongoing conversations because that sponsor would be able to talk with the leadership team, talk with the labs director, and from there we would get some results.

And so as part of that process, we were asked to alter our statement of faith to the point where, as you had mentioned, it completely removed the identity of what the group had stood for. And so that sponsor actually, he agreed that what they were asking for was kind of the full dismantling of what the group really stood for.

And so at a certain point in time, we were being pressured. That is the best possible word I can use. We're being pressured by the DEI group. By the way, it turns out that they had a tremendous amount of power, a very imbalanced power, where they were able to control the agenda of these leaders.

And that had been something that we had come to find out through the deposition process. Never should have been, but it was. And so as part of this process, our sponsor was really vying for what the group and its identity and its charter was about.

So we had a charter, the things that we said we're going to undertake and do. And the statement of faith, the alteration of the statement of faith, seemed to be very divisive and oppressive. And so this sponsor, John Climo, was going to go to his leadership team.

And what had happened is he was supposed to have that conversation. And I think it was a week or two after we had not heard from him. And he he had actually sent out a communication saying that he was retiring.

None of us knew that it was happening. We're all kind of taken back because we thought this was an opportunity to have a conversation with higher level leadership. And I, for one, just thought it was it was very odd.

And so for some time, I had hypothesized what I thought had happened. And there was an opportunity for us to to connect again with John down the road. And he was one of the parties that was disposed. And what had come from that was not necessarily any smoking gun.

I don't want to put any words in his mouth. I think the depositions speak for themselves. But I think what had happened was is at a certain point, his support of the biblical Christian worldview just did not align with what Sandia leadership wanted.

When I talked earlier about the systematic dismantling of the Christian worldview, I mean, they were really when I say they, I believe that there is a whether connected, interconnected effort to systematically disrupt this group because of what it stood for.

And so John, as one of our executive sponsors, had actually left. And then we should have been given another executive sponsor, but that hadn't happened. And then also the meetings with the labs director were removed from this group, essentially censoring it, not giving it the ability to have the conversations about what the charter was, the statement of faith.

From there, it just became this large spiritual battle which turned into a legal.

Battle. So you don't think that the you use the word disappearance of this individual, John, you're you're not saying that you suspect foul play, that he may have been even murdered, are you?

No, John is still in existence. Oh, OK, well, when I say foul play, I can't speak to the things that happened in the background with certainty and nor do I. But my hypothesis was is that he was ushered out of Sandia because he was standing for what this group stood for, which is the biblical Christian worldview.