Touching the Evangelical Sacred Cow: The Altar Call

Guys, we're doing a special weekend edition of Conversations with a Calvinist, and I have in studio with me today Adam Page from Amelia Baptist Church.

I have been waiting so long to have this man in the studio, and we have a great show for you.

So stay tuned.

Conversations with a Calvinist begins right now.

And welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I am welcoming today to the program someone I've been waiting for for over a year to get you in the studio, Adam Page, one of the pastors of Amelia Baptist Church.

Adam, how are you doing today? I'm doing well, Keith.

Thanks for having me on, man.

Appreciate it.

Yes.

Well, whose fault is it that it took a year? Well ...

Are you blaming ...

You're probably blaming me.

Well, we live so close together, but yet at the same time, it's like you and Aaron Bell and David Bradshere, men that I love, but I never get to see.

Yeah.

But that's like the plight of any pastor, really, is you're so focused on your family and your congregation that you typically don't get to see the guys that are right down the street.

So I'm glad we got to do this, man.

I was looking forward to this.

Yeah, me too.

I've been looking forward to it all day.

So today we're going to be talking about the subject of altar calls, and that's going to be the main theme of today's podcast.

And I want to just go ahead and say we're going to be doing some stuff preliminary, though.

We're going to be playing a game.

We're going to be talking about some other things.

But if you want to jump right to the subject at hand, which is altar calls, if you came in, you don't care about us or the games or whatever we're going to do, and you want to jump right to that, if you go down in the YouTube links, you will see that there are chapters to this video, and one of the chapters is going to say the main topic.

So if you just want to jump right ahead to that, go ahead and do that, but you're going to miss all the fun.

All right.

So the next thing we're going to talk about real quick is our giveaways.

Now, we're not doing a special giveaway on this show because it is a weekend edition, but each week I've been giving stuff away because people have been donating to the program.

Oh, awesome.

And we recently had two brand new Reformation Study Bibles that were donated to the program, and so the way that we're doing this is you have to go back on my previous video, the one where I interviewed Pastor Gabe.

That video was called Has the Emergent Church Become Big Eva? You go there, tell me the story of how you met your spouse.

And I'm going to take all of the people who leave that comment on that video, I'm going to put it into a hat, we're going to draw from a hat, and you'll get a new Bible for you and your spouse.

And that's how you're going to enter to win that.

So if you want to.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I could do that? Yeah, you can get anyone.

In fact, the last guy to win on the show was Pastor Kenny Roberts.

Okay, cool.

And he's a regular on the program, but he actually won last week's prize.

And no one thought it was rigged or anything? No.

Well, I hope they know that I wouldn't do that.

Yeah.

I'm not accusing you, I'm just saying.

It's fishy.

It's fishy when people are on the show and they win prizes.

Yeah.

Well, anyone can win who leaves their name.

We put it in a randomizer.

We use an online randomizer.

It's official.

I'm sure it's justified.

It is.

Yeah, don't worry about it.

Just like our music, it's justified.

Just like the theme song.

Yeah, we were talking about that.

Cigar box guitar.

If anybody is curious, I bought the theme music for this show.

I actually paid for the license, but it's not the theme song from Justified.

No.

It was as close as I could get.

It's very – all of this is filmed in the boondocks.

The whole thing.

People don't know this.

But yeah, we're in the middle of Midwest.

Yeah.

Deep in a swamp.

Yeah, absolutely.

All right, so we're going to move on to the next part of the program, and this is the part of the program that I call Craziest Thing This Week.

Craziest Thing This Week is I show you a video that you have never seen.

Well, you may have seen it, but I don't know if you've seen it, and you have no idea what it is.

Okay.

And you have to respond to it, and you have no idea.

All right.

All right, so the Craziest Thing This Week was something that relates to, I think, you and me in ministry specifically, and it's not a long video.

I may have to show it twice, and if you're listening to this, just know that if you're on the podcast and you're listening to this via audio, you're not going to understand.

You're just going to hear some banjo music.

But check out the screen, brother.

Did you see what it was? Yeah.

It was an old church band.

Well, it was just somebody had torped a van, but what it said over it, which was so funny, was it said, the youth pastor takes the church band, and I thought that was funny.

Now were you ever a youth pastor? So yeah, I was never officially a youth pastor, simply only because that's not how we titled the pastors at our church, so we're an elder-led Southern Baptist church, which was kind of a different thing because we're still congregational, we're still autonomous, but there's an elder council, there's a pastoral council of elders, and so when I was hired, the associate pastor position had family discipleship and missions and some of these things, implementing a family equipping ministry model to the church.

All of that was part of the job title, and student ministry ended up being sort of part of the job, so I got to spend a lot of my beginning at Amelia Baptist with the students and the families of the students, not unlike yourself, who is a family integration, right? Family equipping's just kind of like a step down from that, not necessarily down, but just a step different, and we have parents leading the things, yet there's still time and programmatic, and so we were part of that and training parents for it, and so now it's, I'm happy to say eight years later, it's like full-blown family equipping student ministry, and it's the moms, dads, and grandpas teaching the students who come on Wednesday nights.

So I spent a lot of time with students.

First thing I ever did at Amelia Baptist was go on an allegiance student choir mission trip to New York State, to New York City, yeah.

So I spent a lot of time in that, had a lot of, one time, I, it was my idea at a camp, I didn't wreck the van, or get a speeding ticket, I remember those stories when I was growing up, but I said, let's play blind dodgeball, was my idea, and there, I was really thankful.

I'm not sure what happened, but I'm almost sure the felony may have been involved.

It was not, this was a simpler time.

That's when you got in trouble less, you got in trouble less as a pastor maybe then, I don't know, it was eight years ago, we probably still got in a lot of trouble, but I just remember going, hey, this would be fun, and then you were paired up, one was in a blindfold, and then the other was just like the director, but the one in the blindfold was the one that could either be hit or throw the ball at other people, and there was, it was a directive exercise, like a partnership exercise, so many injuries, and so I've never been more thankful for like a medical release form in my entire life.

So maybe not the van, but definitely been in my fair share of problems, it's depicting the relationship, right? That's what the video made me think, was what, when I was a youth leader, what did I do that I really shouldn't have done, and like for me, we went to the Spirit of the Suwannee campground.

Ever been to Spirit of the Suwannee? Yeah, of course.

Okay, Spirit of the Suwannee, for those who are Florida natives, Live Oak, Florida, it's awesome.

A lot of concerts, like Allman Brothers.

Oh yeah, I got to see the Inspirations, I don't know if you remember the, yeah, oh yeah, Inspirations.

That's good stuff.

Well, we took the youth group to Spirit of the Suwannee campground, and we rented golf carts, and we ended up breaking one.

Terrible idea.

And I never realized how expensive it is, and how it got broken was we were literally, we had only the money for two golf carts, but we had like 12 kids, so we would pile six kids on each golf cart, and we were playing war with pinecones, where we were driving them.

So this idea just got worse.

The whole thing.

I should have not been able to.

It didn't start bad.

It was just bad like the whole time, and then got worse.

And then we ended up running the golf carts into each other, and it cost like several hundred dollars to fix.

And your pastor at the time forgave you, or were you? Long story.

I opened up a giant can.

So what was his name? Do you still talk to each other? No, it was.

I'm sorry I did that to you on your show.

I apologize.

Moving on anyway.

What was his name? Well, we, just the things we did, and that's why when I saw that video, I was like this is the kind of thing.

That's good stuff.

Yeah, that's a good relationship, pastor and new pastor.

One filled with grace, and mercy, and kindness.

And a lot of foolish mistakes.

So we're going to move on now to another segment of the program, and we're changing something.

You are brand new, Adam.

You're going to be receiving my new game called National Treasure.

Now, National Treasure is not a game that we've played Battle of the Decades.

We've played which one, which is a card game.

This is actually a game I invented.

I created this game about two years ago because of something that happened in my house.

I mentioned the name of an actor.

My kids didn't know who it was.

And I said, how do you not know who this person is? This man is a national treasure, and you don't know who this guy is.

And my kids were like, even after I explained why this man should be known, they didn't have any idea.

And it drove me crazy.

So the game is sort of based on the old apples to apples game, which there's variations of that, fun variations.

Well, this is sort of my variation on that, and maybe one day I'll market this game as a different version of that.

And so the game is called National Treasure, as you saw the line came up.

And what it is, is I have in my hand, I have the names of three pop culture touchstones.

And today it's three people.

It just happens to be three men.

It happens to be three men named Tom.

Now, each of these- You're so thematic.

I like- You do.

You're big on themes, man.

Conversation with the Calvinists.

Yeah, it's all your alliteration.

It's the pastor, and you're a very Baptist pastor.

Our dad's ministry is called Dads and Dudes.

So it's just, you can't help it.

I can't.

Our men's ministry is Bibles and Biscuits.

Well, and I love it.

So it's just Baptist, bro.

Well, this is, I'm going to give you the names of three different men that I consider to be national treasures in the sense that they have done something that makes them cultural touchstones.

You have to tell me why you think I think that they are a national treasure.

That's the way it is.

And if there were multiple people, everybody would write it down.

This could get weird, though.

That's fine.

Okay, you're okay with it.

I'm not saying, like, weird, weird, but just different.

Yeah, no, no, no.

This is, and you can't see my paper, all right? Oh, so you already have all your stuff.

I've got it down.

You're very prepared.

I'm off the cuff, and you enjoy that.

Well, no, I like being off the cuff, but for the game, it has to be written down.

That way you know I'm not cheating.

All right, gotcha.

Okay, so that's fair.

Here, I've got three Toms.

I'm going to give you the three Toms, and you are going to tell me why each one of these is a national treasure.

Okay.

Now, I want to preempt something, because we're both on Twitter.

Unfortunately.

And Twitter, yes, and Twitter is a very opinionated place.

People, everybody has an opinion.

That's what it's about, people sharing opinions, and I'm cool with that.

But somebody may say, I can't believe he mentioned this actor.

This actor is, you know, part of the Illuminati or something.

I don't care.

I'm saying this person did something that puts them on the map.

I am not endorsing everything this person's ever done.

You understand what I'm saying? You have to say what you're saying now.

That's how crazy the world is.

It is.

People are going to care that I mention these people.

They're going to want your badge.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I'm going to take away my card, whatever card I have.

Your clergy card.

You have to park where normal people park.

I do have people who have said things like, pastors shouldn't know those things, like pop culture references.

Yeah.

Just walk away.

It's a huge pop culture reference.

Walk around with actual blinders.

I don't understand.

All right.

So, here are the three.

First one, Tom Selleck.

Tom Selleck.

Why would I say Tom Selleck is a national treasure? Okay.

Well, Magnum P.I., and that's the first thing that comes to mind.

How many guesses? Do I get to just kind of rant for a while? You get to choose one.

It's literal.

You choose one, just like an apples to apples.

Okay.

You choose one.

Oh, I choose just one thing right now.

And I have to respond either it's right or wrong.

Okay.

So, my one is, I mean, in Magnum P.I., it's the whole embodiment.

Like Hawaiian shirts, I mean, I don't mean for this to sound weird, but he's a reason why people think they can pull off mustaches.

I mean, you want to give that to Rooster from Top Gun Maverick all you want, that's fine.

We were around when dudes were trying to pull those off, and the only reason is because Tom Selleck brought that.

He had curly dark hair, and aviators, and the three-four button shirt, which my dad still wears to church that way at 60 years old.

My man.

You know, it's just, yeah, it's too warm in here, and just does that.

If you have a picture of your dad, I will slide it in.

I will edit it into that part.

He'll love that, I'm sure.

We can send it to him for 30-second clips.

Let's do it.

He'll just be like, all the things you could have said about me.

But yeah, it's the embodiment.

Tom Selleck, for sure.

He became more relevant to other generations later for different reasons, but that's definitely one.

I have it on my list.

We're going to go one at a time.

It is Magnum P.I.

That's why I said Magnum P.I.

Now, I almost put Friends.

That's what I mean.

In the 90s, he had a resurgent shirt.

I love Blue Bloods.

Yeah, so he's been relevant for like 50 years.

And the only thing I don't like about Blue Bloods, and we'll let the audience respond, is glasses.

So I don't watch Blue Bloods.

Okay.

All right.

But is he, though, he's like a dad cop? Yeah.

His dad was the chief of police.

Now, he's the chief of police.

Okay.

And his son is played by Donnie Wahlberg.

Oh, okay.

So it's like all these people that, just good actors and funny.

It's a good show.

Yeah.

Wholesome family show.

And they're like a Catholic family.

Don't they have dinner together or something? That's a big part of the show.

Like, that's a big...

I've heard like family ministry guys be like, see, this is what we're missing in the world.

But they're Roman Catholic, and so they have this Sunday dinner.

Okay.

I guess.

They have to have it together.

Yeah.

But he wears these glasses.

And if you...

Just like Benjamin Franklin glasses? It's not that.

His head is wide.

It has gained with age.

He used to be a very narrow man.

He now is like me, and I have a very round head.

His head is just huge.

And his glasses taper in, and they're these like little, small...

Like bifocals.

But they're not.

They're just glasses.

Oh, like what you see on a puppet? Yes.

Like puppet glasses? You know what I mean? I'm going to post...

I'll put a picture in here of that.

It's the best.

It just...

I look at it, and I'm like, dude, you make a million dollars.

Get some good shades, dude.

No, it's his regular glasses.

So he has...

Okay.

But that's probably part of the character for some reason.

I don't know.

Someone in costume design.

Whoever chose those glasses...

Somebody's going to say, oh, I think he's handsome.

I'll have to check that show out.

I've never...

I've watched it.

All right.

But Magnum P.I.

was the...

That was actually what started the game.

Yeah.

Magnum P.I.

That was the person I mentioned to my kids.

Oh, okay.

I said something about Tom Selleck.

I think I'm watching Blue Bloods.

My kids would have no idea what Tom Selleck is.

And you know Ashley, my daughter.

Yeah, yeah.

She's been...

Oh, yeah.

Well, she's older.

Ashley's older.

You would have thought.

Yeah.

She'd have known.

Her and Cody.

I said, Tom Selleck.

And they said, Tom...

Now, were they in their teens when this happened? So they...

They should have known something.

They should have known.

No, we're too judgmental.

They don't know much.

So, second Tom.

I have guesses where these other Toms...

Now, this one is going to be harder.

It depends on how mainstream you get.

It's pretty mainstream.

These are...

Again, this is your...

My first time playing.

I want people to get an idea of the grass.

I feel so honored.

I'm excited.

Tom Cruise.

Oh, okay.

What would make him a national treasure? Now, again, somebody's going to say, he's Scientologist, but somebody's going to freak out that I brought up Tom Cruise on the...

Just understand, I'm saying this, man, as far as actors go, no one has a more prolific body of work.

No, this is true.

I would say than Tom Cruise.

Yeah, it's true.

He's been everything.

He makes this very difficult because there's about...

Every time he did something, he like revolutionized it or created a trend out of it.

Yeah.

I mean, you could go...

There are seven or eight different answers right off the top of my head.

I have one specifically that's in my mind and that's what you got to do.

We got to right now...

Oh, that's hard.

Just...

Okay.

Just...

This got way Pentecostal for a second.

Well...

It's got very Bill Johnson just when you did that.

I didn't know what...

Expecting gold dust to fall from the studio ceiling.

What did he say? I'm thinking...

Oh, my goodness.

I'm thinking about...

Dumb and Dumber where he says, Tractor Beep.

It's like be right there.

Yeah.

You got to hum and whistle.

I can't do it.

That right there.

That's the only talent I have.

See, this is why you have to be on the show.

Tractor Beep.

Yeah, so Tractor Beep.

All right.

Well, so I have...

Yeah, that's hard, dude, because I want to go with 80s Tom.

80s Tom.

It is 80s Tom.

I'll give you that.

Yeah, I want to go with that.

And then, you know, the resurgence reason, like, but it's the same franchise.

I'm cheating a little bit because I'm filtering things out to try to get a hint from where you are.

I'm going to go with my gut.

I'm going to say, I mean, Maverick in the leather jacket, bro.

Aviators, again, this was just absolutely revolutionizing.

And not to mention, how do you not say that character? When 40 years after he did that film, he brought in a billion dollars from the sequel.

That's never been done.

You don't do that.

And demanded to have it filmed or released only in theaters.

Real fighter pilot jets.

Yeah, and demanded to have it released in theaters, not on stream.

And not any streaming at all, but bring back to the movies when a lot of movies were caving down.

And I know you love the movies.

I love the movies.

That's one of the few times we see each other is actually at the movies.

Right, it's true.

Yeah, with our crews, with all of our plethora of children.

Yes.

But yeah, that's true.

I have to go with Maverick.

And I want...

There's other answers to this, because he's...

Well, I had Top Gun.

It's the same answer.

Oh, perfect.

Yes, Top Gun is the answer.

Yeah, that has to be...

Awesome.

Yeah, it has to be.

But you know the shades in Risky Business, which we can't talk about because we're Christian pastors.

Yes, absolutely.

But 80s, and then...

I was going to ask if you wanted to film a preempt for this, where we slide by the door.

Slide by...

Just socks.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, if you want negative viewership.

How do we get in the negative views? I thought you were going to say naked.

I was like, where did this...

And if anyone visits your church at these, you're immediately disqualified.

Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

Yeah, right.

That's good to old time rock and roll, right? Huge, iconic.

But I mean, the guy...

I've loved his movies, but I've loved him through the Scientology stuff.

Yeah.

I'll ignore that personal part, and I'm just like, his movies are killer.

Yeah, you can't say he's not a great actor.

No, he's great.

So much fun.

All right.

So last Tom, and this is another Tom that people might have an issue with, even though he's supposed to be the nicest man in Hollywood.

Tom Hanks.

Yeah, the Hanks.

Tom Hanks.

You had to, right? Now I'm asking you.

You have to choose, out of a body of work that is massive...

I mean, that's hard.

To say, this was the...

I feel like I could guess your answer.

That's what I'm asking you.

Guess what I would say.

Okay, so I'm trying to guess who you'd say.

Yeah, that's what the game is.

You want to...

We're...

Again, it's an apple...

It's apples out.

I'm just understanding him.

I'm very slow.

I told you.

Well, I want the audience to get it.

Okay, cool.

So when you think of Tom Hanks...

When I think of Tom Hanks...

You know, I'm really...

I know you're an 80s nut, so I feel like all of these are going to be in the same, like, close to the same era.

Yeah.

And there's several I could go for that.

A big.

Let's just...

I'm going to say it.

Is it? Big is the winner.

Yeah! Boom! Three for three, my friend.

All right.

Who told you? Yes, three for three.

Yeah, big.

Could have gone Splash.

Could have gone Joe vs.

the Volcano.

Splash was on there.

Meg Ryan, Joe vs.

the Volcano.

Their first of three features.

I had to put in my mind, what was I going to put? Yeah.

But to me, big...

Big is the movie.

He plays a kid perfectly.

Yeah.

I mean, just...

His shock and awe and freak-outs.

Everything.

It is weird in, like, hindsight, because you're like, she found out he was 13.

Wasn't that Elizabeth Perkins? Yes.

I wasn't going to go there.

She's Wilma Flintstone to me.

Elizabeth Perkins.

Have you ever seen Distracted Nerd? No.

It's a YouTube channel.

This guy just does video reviews and things, and he does sometimes use some bad language, so I don't endorse everything he says.

But he was talking about the movie Big, and he's like, when she found out he was 10, she should have stopped.

She just, like, smiles.

Yeah, like, she's like, call me in 10 years.

It's like, no, you're not supposed to say that.

This is awful.

She just, like, waves at him.

Yeah, exactly.

The whole movie is really weird at that point.

Got real teacher student at that moment.

This is the one that...

This is the show.

That's it.

This is the...

So the game is a good idea.

I mean, it's a killer premise, because you got apples to apples, you got the pop culture, and I love the phrasing.

I also love that homeschool moms are going to buy national treasure thinking it maybe talks about the nation, or, like, any types of treasure, like, knowledge, and they're going to be just names of celebrities.

It's great.

I played it with one of our...

We had our worship team had an evening in their home, or one of the worship members...

Worship team members had a Christmas party at their home, and I said, well, I have a game I made up.

And they were like, this is weird, but we can do it.

So I pulled out a piece of paper, I handed it to everybody, and the one we picked was Donald Trump.

Okay.

Why would he need a national treasure? That's a loaded question.

Donald Trump and national treasure.

First of all, again, I'm just aching for Twitter responses right now.

Right.

Home Alone 2.

I mean, just go off the cuff.

Somebody put, best president ever.

Like, that was like...

And I was like, well, you know your audience.

You're out for controversy.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's fun.

It doesn't have to be actors.

That's good.

No, I like that.

You could really do with anything.

It's a good job, man.

So now we're going to move on to our main topic, which is the subject of altar calls.

And more specifically, the subject of, are altar calls biblical? Or should we be doing them? Should we not? I know that you and I have churches where that's not a big part of our worship service, where we have a time where we lower the lights, and we crank up the music, and we play 70 verses of Just As I Am.

But seeing as that is the culture of some churches, I thought I would show a video just to get us started.

And you haven't seen this video.

This is the craziest thing I've seen this week.

But it's close.

I'm not going to ask people to raise their hands.

I know where we're at, but right where you are in the stillness of this moment, while our hearts are tender, I want to invite you to call on the name of Jesus.

If you're here and you're lost, if you're not 100% sure you're saved, if God's dealt with your heart today, I want you to talk to God.

Ask him to save you.

Say, preacher, I don't know what to say.

I'll help you.

But mean it from the honest of your heart.

Say something like this.

Say, dear Jesus, I'm a sinner, and I need to be saved.

Please forgive me of my sin.

I repent.

I'm sorry.

Please forgive me.

Please save me.

Please change me.

With your help, I'll serve you the rest of my life.

In Jesus' name I pray.

Amen.

With every head bowed and every eye closed, unapologetically, unashamedly, if you're in this room and you just prayed and asked Jesus to save you, I'm not going to embarrass you.

I give you my word.

I will not embarrass you.

But if you just ask Jesus to save you unapologetically, unashamedly, right now, as high as you possibly can, I just want you to launch your hand in the air as high as you can.

Say, preacher, I just prayed and asked Jesus to save me.

There's one hand.

Thank God for that one.

There's another hand.

Two, three.

Hold them up high.

Hold them up high.

Four, five, six, seven.

Amen.

Hold them up high.

Eight.

Praise God.

Nine.

Do you think there was one? I don't know.

We're going to talk about that in a minute.

Another one in the balcony.

Thank God for that church family.

Let's give God praise.

Give God the praise.

Yeah, and here's the part that gets me about that video, and I want to say right away, one, I don't know who this dude is, and I'm not questioning his integrity or his sincerity.

Or his intentions, yeah.

That's true.

That's very important.

I'm not saying this is a bad dude.

I don't know who he is.

I'm not here to make fun of him.

I think this is indicative of what's going on in 100 churches in this area on Sunday morning, and thousands of churches across the United States.

Just so you understand, dude, if you're the guy who did that, just know that we're not here to beat up on you.

I want to say this also.

Part of the reason that made me choose this video was he said at the beginning, I'm not going to ask you to raise your hand, and then he asked me to say it.

So there is a sense in which there was a little bit of discontinuation there of, I'm not going to do it, and then he did it.

And so that was part of what made me get...

That turned me on to the video, but then I thought, this is normal.

It's not abnormal.

Lower the lights.

Crank up the music.

There's a system.

There is a system.

There's a format.

And again, I said I'm not going to talk bad about this dude.

I'm not, but I am going to talk about the method.

I think the method is not good.

That's what we mean.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's what I'm saying.

It's not him.

That's what the conversation is about.

I mean, you're not talking about the call of salvation.

Yeah.

I mean, preaching inherently comes with a call to repent.

Yeah.

A call to be saved.

A call to understand that in Christ alone, you have been justified through belief and repentance, not based on your works, but based on what Jesus has done.

You want to know the date you were saved? Well, if you believe and repent, the date you were saved is when Christ finished it.

Yeah.

And when Christ emptied the tomb.

You know? So this is kind of, that call to repent is not what we're saying.

Because a lot of people will see just two options.

They'll just see, do it exactly like that, or do a format of that.

And that's honestly not even the worst altar call I've ever seen.

No.

That's what I'm saying.

We're not making fun.

No, he didn't do any, the snapping is what always really motivates the spirit.

I see that hand.

Yeah, it's like this.

I see.

It ends up sounding like an auctioneer at a festival or a fair.

Yeah.

Because it's kind of a one, one in the back.

And that's what you need to get started.

And I mean, I even knew a guy who had plants in the church.

You know? And so that, that I'm not accusing him of.

Because this, it is easy to make this manipulative and dishonest.

And then how are we giving glory to God when we're doing dishonest things, even for good reasons.

Right? Like then it becomes a moral argument.

Like this is a huge issue.

Real quick, tangent topic on that.

When Billy Graham came to Jacksonville.

Yeah.

Were you there for that? Oh yeah.

Yeah.

The veterans.

My dad went forward.

No, it was, it was the TIAA.

It was the, I can't remember what it was called.

It was the old Gator Bowl.

Yeah.

The big, yeah.

The Jags, Jag Stadium.

Yeah.

Well, what I mean, it was, it was.

Just call it.

When I was a kid, it was the Gator Bowl.

Just call it right what it is.

All right.

I'll do that.

It's the bank.

Okay.

We call it the bank.

Okay.

It's where playoff teams play.

Well, where are the Jags going to play? Just leave it alone.

We're going to pull a Quentin Tarantino and take off my headset and just leave.

My wife loves the Jags.

We were so, we, I'm such not a sports guy.

And my wife.

Oh, so that's the one thing you're not invested in? No, not at all.

My wife was, she was a college softball player.

Okay.

Like a pitcher.

Okay.

That was her thing.

And I was.

So if your kids are into athletics, that's just genetically.

It's not me.

I was in the band and I was a magician, a professional magician in high school.

And I worked at a funeral home.

I wore the same suit to both jobs.

I would go dressed.

I would work at the funeral home.

And pray to God you didn't get your jobs mixed up.

Well, people are like, did you ever try to levitate the casket? Yes, I did.

I mean, there's like a hundred, hundred wrong things with that.

I would leave.

Got to walk in going, I'm at a kid's birthday party.

There's no need for a eulogy today.

I still have the best idea for a video.

Remember we talked about the birthday party? Oh, yeah.

Oh, the birthday.

That's a good one.

Yeah, you have to do that one.

So.

But anyway, back to Billy Graham and the CIA.

The bank.

I have friends who were part of the group that, because before Billy Graham comes to town, he would have meetings with local churches and get people involved to.

A lot of fundraising.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But also a lot of volunteer getting.

Awareness and volunteers.

And what they had is they had counselors, people that were intended to talk to people when they come forward.

And like I said, my dad went forward at Billy Graham, so I'm not saying that the gospel wasn't given.

But, and there may again, some people may want to argue that.

But the point is, they put the counselors all throughout the stadium.

That way, when Billy Graham said, won't you come? Others are coming.

And he does.

He was known for, your friends will wait for you.

Yeah.

Your friends will wait for you.

We have some literature for you.

Yeah.

The friends will wait for you.

You know.

Well, the counselors were the ones who got up first and they call that priming the pump because there are people who want to get up, but they just won't.

So you counselors would get up first and the counselors will start the flood.

People need help.

And yeah, people need that, that push.

And so that's the model that people think church is supposed to be that way.

People think that this is the way, this is the way salvation.

So that, this is a good, that's a good segue, right? So what we even know about altar calls is really a 20th century statement.

Yeah.

So it doesn't go back to the church.

In fact, one of the greatest coming forths that we see in scripture is in Acts 2, Peter's sermon, which we're not getting all of Peter's sermon.

Sure.

You know, we understand we're reading the text.

We're getting what we need.

We're getting what the Holy Spirit wanted us to have.

Yeah.

But in Acts 2, you're getting Peter's sermon and what thousands are saved.

So we have something here right off the bat.

We have a descriptive or prescriptive discernment needed, right? So what are we doing in our churches? We're preaching the word of God and preaching the gospel.

That's what he did.

Peter preached what happened with Jesus, what we need to do now and what happens in salvation.

And then people responded to that because the Holy Spirit had already fallen at Pentecost.

And this is where we get it, right? So you go fast forward, right? This is past the Roman Catholic Church, past the Protestant Reformation.

You're in the 19th century.

You're in the Great Awakenings, right? So if you remember Charles Finney, do you know about Charles Finney? Sure.

Absolutely.

So Charles Finney.

Second Great Awakening.

Second Great Awakening.

Mr.

Church History should have realized.

No, no, no.

Of course you do.

No, it's fine.

It's your show, right? You just brag about everything you know.

Charles Finney is the one that coined the bench.

And he had the bench up there and it was almost like join the bench, be a part of the bench.

It was called the mourner's bench.

Yeah, the mourner's bench.

And he would pray.

People pray at the mourner's bench.

And we pray over people.

And honestly, a great sentiment.

Like I had no real qualms when I was reading through Charles Finney and seeing the beginning of the altar call when it took great interest in what this is and what we do.

And all of this, by the way, happening with an intention and the same intention that Brother might share on the video, which is to see people come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ and to know what we need to be doing with our churches or if there's something we're not doing that we need to do, right? So this is all from a place of just wondering and making sure that we are, in my opinion, trusting the Holy Spirit to do what the Holy Spirit can only do.

That's a fundamental thing here that needs to be discussed when we're discussing altar calls and anything having to do with the calling part of the worship service, which there does need to be.

Call and repent.

Every single one of your sermons and my sermons, no matter what the content, no matter what the exegesis or the exposition or the context need to end with or be somewhere.

You're a sinner.

You need to be saved.

Repent.

Repent.

Repent.

And put your faith in Jesus Christ, right? That's the call is to change.

That's the call is to change.

Well, Charles Finney.

Real quick.

Yeah, go ahead.

Again, a side note.

One of the things that I would say though, and sometimes people get, I think people misunderstand.

I don't think that always has to be at the end.

No, I agree.

And because like last week I was preaching on the subject of children being a blessing from the Lord and my middle point dealt with adopted children being a picture of the gospel.

And that was really where I put the emphasis on becoming part of the family of God through adoption by trusting Christ.

Went into a full display of the gospel after my first point last Sunday.

Yeah.

And then I moved on to my third point, which at that point was actually how children of believers are blessed.

I went to 1 Corinthians 7.14, talked about how Presbyterians believe a little different than Baptists, right? But we all believe that children in a Christian home are blessed because they're being brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

That's, and so that was really how we ended.

But the gospel was in the middle rather than the end.

Right.

And so that has everything to do with, is there a difference between how things were happening at revivals and how things were happening at worship services? Billy Graham and his Billy Graham crusade had an intention.

Yeah.

And in that intention was in revivalism, you know, because it always started with waking up America or, you know, everything was always holistic, bringing church back, bringing Christ back into the country, into the state.

And of course, who wouldn't want it? Whoever loves Jesus is going to want to go sign me up for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's do that.

And so George Whitfield, who, you know, I'm sure you like and have read plenty of George Whitfield was big on this altar call, but he, when he was doing revivals, this wasn't something that would happen necessarily in a Sunday or Saturday that point worship service.

Right.

This was, this is something he believed could go into the culture, kind of what you do with street preaching and say, call and call.

Yeah.

Repent, come.

And what are you doing when you're street preaching? You're declaring the gospel and you're hoping for change.

I think the shift from what we've read occurred somewhere in the 1950s and 1960s, the last 60 years of sort of fundamentalism, because you can kind of, you can kind of get that clip and go that probably, that's probably an independent fundamental Baptist church.

Right.

So we already know there are just different ways churches do these things, but the altar call seems to, seems to corral a lot of the denominations in one, like Presbyterians probably don't do it as much.

At least Sproul maybe didn't, at least because he said he didn't.

In fact, I don't think, I was actually going to talk about liturgical distinction.

In just a second, but yeah.

So the difference between revivalism and worship services is key.

And to know that you're not aiming for converts, you're aiming for disciples.

And so I think that's even, that even works with why you don't always at the end have to build everything up to a dim the lights, play the E minor, stay on the E minor, you know, and even use the drums and sustain and build.

And the louder the drums get, the louder I get and now I hate my sin.

Right.

And then all of a sudden, well, no, you don't hate your sin.

You're just, if you can emotionally enter a relationship with Jesus Christ, you can emotionally exit a relationship with Jesus Christ.

That's my fear.

So there is a real fear at pastors not noticing the line.

There is a line of, is this disrespectful to what the Holy Spirit can only do? Do I feel like the Holy Spirit needs my help and manipulative tactics in order to do something that only the Holy Spirit can do, which is change a human heart through the preaching and proclamation of the scriptures.

Now, before anyone rebuttals, you know how you and I like to answer rebuttals before they happen.

Absolutely.

Before anyone rebuttals, I'm not suggesting all you do is be a hands-off pastor, read the Bible aloud and say, all right, there we go.

That's sufficiency of scripture.

I never have to, I never have to talk to you another second about repentance or calling.

No, you should be.

This is a part of a pastor is, and Charles Spurgeon said, if people are going to enter hell, let them leap over our dead bodies.

Well, that implies that there is effort on behalf of those who have been armed with the word of God.

The problem is 50, 70, 50 to 60 years after Dwight L.

Moody and, and, and Adrian Rogers and sort of what we know to be the best in the altar call business.

They really, they really were.

I don't know if it was as much of a tactic with the music and the lights and stuff as it has gotten in recent years, but there was always definitely at the end, a come down, repent, fill out this card, talk to someone, all the stuff, be at the, accept Jesus Christ, walk through the sinner's prayer, ABC, accept belief and confess.

I mean, we've done it all.

Baptists understand it all.

We have, now we're living in a cultural Christian nightmare of false conversions.

It was what R.C.

Sproul said when he was asked this question in a MacArthur conference.

So what is your opinion on altar calls? In the sense of people calling and coming, being called to repent and coming forward because there's good, he goes, there's good to this.

If you want to do that, go right ahead, but be very, very careful because I believe altar calls are dangerous and he used the word dangerous says to me, it's very dangerous because there's a temptation to abuse the heck out of the altar call and manipulate through human power rather than the power of the Holy Spirit, the result that you want.

So all of this lends itself to a conversation of pragmatism, a conversation of again, um, soteriology, like what actually saves, is it the, is it the mystical words coming out of your mouth? Like the repetition, is this a, um, Harry Potter? You just saying stuff out loud now and there's a magical thing that happens.

Like are you repentant because you said it? So no, obviously not.

There has to be a true heart change that can only come through professing of the gospel, through the preaching and teaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

And then from that people change and do so.

I'm not suggesting there isn't a call.

Sure.

I'm saying we have manipulated and abused the heck out of it.

And what we have seen is a laundry list of false conversions and cultural Christians.

Yeah.

And, uh, we had a gentleman at our church one time and, and this has been several years ago.

Uh, and I understand the heart behind this, so I don't want it to seem as if I'm, I'm, I'm diminishing his reason for asking, but we were talking one day about the fact that we don't do an altar call, that we don't have that as part of our service.

In a little while, we're going to talk about our different liturgies and how your, how your services outline, how mine it has outlined and what, what, what do we, what do we have in that place? Because, because some people expect it like you didn't do an invitation.

Even recently I've had a new member, a new young member, young couple too.

Yeah.

So this man came to me, he goes, well, when do people get saved? That was his question.

And he was legitimate.

He was not being facetious or sarcastic or argumentative, sarcastic or argumentative.

I created a word.

It's being argumentative while sarcastic.

Listen, if a ginormous can be a word, then sargumentative can be a word.

Anyway.

I don't agree with what you're saying.

That's so funny.

Well, he was being, he was not being either of those things.

He was literally asking, well, when does someone get saved in your church? That's a good question.

And, um, I, I, I sort of had to go through sort of what you just talked about was that's one salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is not a work of anything that we accomplish as the, um, as the instrument that God is going to save a person through opening their heart to believe the gospel.

And as long as the gospel is preached, that an invitation has been given by the gospel being preached.

You've done your job.

Yeah.

And, and I, and I tried to point out to him too, that our service ends every week with the Lord's supper and the Lord's supper and this getting to some somewhat to the liturgy of the church, um, that provides a moment of confrontation because we say, if you are not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, do not partake of this table.

If you're a member of another church and you're in good standing with your church and you're visiting with us, maybe your family member, maybe you're here because you're visiting or whatever, you're welcome.

But if you are not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, let the cup pass.

Do not partake.

The Bible says very clearly that you're not supposed to.

That provides a moment of confrontation to the soul, the person who's not a believer to say, there's something I'm missing out on.

There's something, not just I'm missing out on the bread and the cup, but I'm actually not participating in the body of Christ because I'm not part of the body of Christ.

And there in that, there is a moment of confrontation and it's, it's not an invitation as much as it is a showing forth of the, of, of, of what it means to be a believer.

It means to, to be in union with Christ.

And like we know, baptism is a picture of our regeneration and the communion is a picture of our union with Christ being in Christ.

Uh, and, and, and so John 17.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, so that is a, that, that for us.

And when he heard that, he said, well, that makes sense.

I said, and if somebody, we have it printed in our bulletin.

If somebody, um, wants to talk to an elder, my phone number is printed.

Like my direct number is printed at the bottom of the bulletin.

If you have, if you need to do, and we don't say it this way, but do business with God.

I don't know if you've heard that.

Yeah.

However you word it.

Yeah.

That's not what it says, but I forget what it says.

It says something to the effect of if, if, if we are concerned about your soul and if you need to talk to an elder, come to us.

And then the phone number's there.

And it's for that reason.

I would stay here for four hours, five hours.

I'd stay here as long as it took.

I remember the story that Paul Washer tells about the guy.

You ever hear the story he told about the, the, the, he was like up in the Alaska and the guy came and just been diagnosed with cancer.

Yeah.

Terminal illness.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he sat down and he ended up missing his flight.

I think Paul Washer had like a flight and he says, I'm not going, I'm going to stay with this man.

And he chose to miss out on them.

Like it was rare to, you're going to stay the night if you miss out on an Alaska flight.

Yeah.

So, but that, that story sat with my heart.

And there's actually a book called Pastor Sketches, which is stories of different pastors and different ways that they minister.

And it's very, it's somewhere on my shelf over there.

But one of the stories in that book is of a pastor who just after service, he had a bigger church and after service his, he just said my office is open and anyone he, and it came to the point where there would be people lined up at his office sometimes for hours waiting their turn to come in and sit and talk with him.

Yeah.

And I, and, and again, it's not an altar call, but it's in the sense it's affecting that opportunity that if you, if you do need somebody to pray with you, if you do need somebody to lead you in understanding what it means to receive the gospel, if you need that, we're here.

We're not telling you, Hey, we preach the gospel.

Now, you know, go home.

Yeah.

And I'm not even, I mean, I'll back it up and say I don't even have a problem with, with you you every once in a while.

Are you at the end of the service? If that's how you, if there are churches that we love and pastors that we love that are saying the altar is open.

Yeah.

Like we're just going to play a song with just the music or we're just going to sing, please come and utilize this opportunity.

Cause there is, I think there is relevance.

Like you said, you stay as long as you need to.

There's, there's a good thing about once you have heard it while it's kind of fresh to maybe, maybe look into that and like confess, like at least confess and just focus in or just pray, just spend some time praying.

And I'm, I encourage people to even do it at their seats.

So, so I'm not against like going down to an altar.

What really, what we're talking about is culturally when we refer to an altar call, it has become a sort of method or system of human practice and human invention and even staff meeting manipulation to achieve the results that you want.

It takes the whole staff.

It just, if it takes the whole staff and to say a prayer, rather than say, I trust the Holy spirit to work and I trust that we, that the word of God is true.

And I trust that we have been called to do what we're calling to do.

And we're going to put our service in the hands of the Lord.

He's going to be the only one that receives glory for it rather than, Oh, we got a guest speaker who comes who's really good at ending his sermon on a very sob story.

I'm what's, there's this one speaker who went to a conference, you know, something like that they bring for students and it was, you have all the new artists and there's a big speaker at the end.

I remember one time he's preaching a sermon, you know, a message and he's talking about some scriptures, talking about life.

You know, it's, I didn't have high standards for where we were in terms of, wow, we're going to get, you know, this is going to be really, really good.

This is a Wycliffe stuff, right? Yeah.

No, but he got into it as fine speaker, really good speaker as far as his ability.

And at the end, he just launches into a story about how, you know, dad's driving a boat and he's with his daughter and he looks back and his daughter's not there and they're on this lake and he can't find her.

And he looks back.

And for, you know, it, you know, she fell into the motor and she's gone.

And the whole arena is quiet.

And then he goes, tomorrow is not guaranteed.

And then just, and then goes into like this and just this horror story.

And he goes, he goes tomorrow, tomorrow is not guaranteed.

I don't even know if it's true.

I don't know.

It's just tomorrow is not.

And so all these kids are just utterly horrified.

And then he goes, and then the music comes on and it's like, and this is why today, before you leave, before you leave, it's almost like a fire sale.

Like, you know, before you leave, get it right with Jesus.

So what's true here.

We don't know if tomorrow's guaranteed.

We do need to get it right with Jesus.

The Bible says today is the day of salvation.

But what's, what's odd about that? What drew kids to the front? Was it a horror story that scared the Jesus out of them? Or was it the gospel, the unadulterated, unmanipulated, untouched.

This is who Jesus is.

He loves you and he wants you to come to him.

You know, this to me, that's, that to me was like, okay, so we have the capability of getting great results.

We know that.

And we have the capability of getting great results without the gospel.

We got to be careful.

We just got to be careful.

We can get great results, the results we want without ever talking about the gospel.

Is that true? Is that not true? And if that's true, we've seen it be true.

And we've seen it, that it's been true time and time again, almost every Sunday for some, then we have to be a people of caution.

We have to be a people who are careful, not, or who are just making all of these grave mistakes under the guise or under the cloak of evangelism.

Or we just want people to be saved.

Well, if you want to be saved and do what the gospel tells you to do, which is preach it and teach it and be more about disciples than you are about converts.

I love what you said about you have my Sunday.

If you need, if you need four hours after this worship service, I care about your soul more than I do my lunch plans.

That's right.

What's wrong with that? My wife knows that.

And there have been times where that happens and it's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, thankfully she's, you know, she understands that.

I find a lot of kids get saved around the E minor chords.

I find the E minor.

When you hit the, for the guitar players out there, when you hit that E minor and you stay on it.

Yeah.

Something about the conviction of Holy spirit just takes over.

It's that, you know, it's just, it's not, it's not a positive.

It's not a major chord.

No, it's emotional.

It's an E minor emotion.

You can't spell emotional without E minor.

That's what it feels, what it feels like.

And so again, I'm not going after the intentions of some of these guys.

I feel like, I feel like if you talk to them, a lot of them, they want people saved.

They call themselves soul winners.

Well, let me, yes.

And even that term, because like that in the independent fundamentalist Baptist church, there's a, there's a big thing about we're going soul winning.

Like they go out and do a lot of evangelism.

The guys I know who are part of that.

And that's fine.

But that's, that, that is like, you're a soul winner and you're soul winning.

And that's the, that's the, what they're doing, their motivation.

And that's all, that's all fine.

Um, it's, it's the, the concern that I have that I wanted to bring back on this and, and talking about in regard to the, um, the altar call, how this all works out is there are men and you, you nailed it a minute ago.

You said there are men who can get people saved without the gospel.

And I knew a man once who he taught an evangelism class at our seminary.

I'm not going to mention names, but there may be some people who, cause I did go to a local seminary.

There may be some people who remember this.

Again, I'm not questioning this man's integrity, but I am saying what he taught was wrong.

And I'll just, I would tell him this.

I would tell him what you taught was wrong because he said in the, in his evangelism class, uh, I can get anyone saved.

That was his, I, I remember it to this day.

He said, you give me time.

You give me enough time with anyone and I can get them saved.

And I remember thinking, dude, Jesus couldn't get everybody.

Not that he couldn't.

And you know what I mean? Not everybody who interacted with Jesus, rich young ruler, stuff like that.

That's right.

And, but this man had the audacity to tell a class of young up and coming preachers.

He had, he had one thing.

I remember he had a watch.

And he had a, a red dot on the two on his watch.

And what he said, he said, by two o'clock every day, I got to talk to people about Jesus.

That was his way of very Southern, you know, about two o'clock every day.

I've talked to people about Jesus and you should do, you should make sure you put two on your watch.

That way, when you go out, you'll know that by two o'clock, you've talked to people about Jesus.

Yeah.

I mean, talking to people about Jesus is a good thing, but I know what you mean.

It's like, okay, but his is, but it was for him.

It was like a sales.

It was, that's what it sounds like.

I can sell anyone this couch.

Yeah.

The old, the old, the old ads from the old radio shows.

Come on down to Jesus town.

And you're going to get Jesus.

And you're going to get all the Jesus you want.

And all, you know, 50% off discipleship.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we don't even do discipleship.

We don't do repentance because repentance is not the gospel.

Right.

And this is free membership cards.

Yeah.

And that's true.

But when somebody says I can get anyone saved, you're no longer talking about the gospel.

And there's such a huge difference between, I can get anyone saved and I hope everyone gets saved.

That's right.

I hope they all do.

Yeah.

Me too.

I want everyone to be saved.

I've never shared the gospel.

People think Calvinists are like this, but I've never shared the gospel with anyone and said, man, I know this guy.

And I'm not, I'm not coming on your show and saying, Hey, I'm not trying to blow smoke.

But the bottom line is as far as pastors, I mean, I know there are a lot.

We have, so we have a lot of really great, sweet, kind, godly pastors in, in the nine Oh four.

Like we really do.

Like Fernina, you will lead Jacksonville Callahan.

I would, there's a great community of pastors.

I know everybody loves Jesus, but man, when it comes to the Calvinism, you know, the, the, the word and then the way it goes up against mission in so many minds or evangelism in so many minds, it's just so untrue.

And a, and a great example of that is your, is your business.

Like what you do weekend and week out, you're the first at the fairs, you have your booth, you're out in arenas, you're, you're out with an abortion clinics.

Dude, I'm just telling you, keep up doing what you're doing.

Like it, it's making a huge difference.

And so they may see this word, but the bottom line is like David Platt said, there is an elect, go get them.

That's right.

So, so that, that doesn't conflict with the mission of the gospel.

And I think that's important to say because of who we are.

I'm, I'm a reformed Baptist.

And, and you know, if you watch your denominations videos, you mentioned us, which that was good.

I'm hate that it was Richard that got to be it, but it's fine.

It's no big deal.

I love Richard, but come on.

Uh, you know, it was a great, it was a great pan over and you can't quite pan over when you're the guy playing.

You picked a gun one to do it, which was really good.

Good choice.

Yeah.

For reformed Baptist out here.

But, but the idea is idea is yeah.

Old Nassau, but we're reformed.

And I think there's just a lot of, uh, a lot of immediate kickback.

This is going to get, cause we're touching altar calls.

Um, and it's going to be, Oh, well there, you know, theology is getting in the way of calling people and wanting to be with them towards Jesus.

Well, no, let's just understand that what we're talking about is, uh, false conversions and manipulative tactics.

And you can look at the stats all you want.

But the millennial drop off rate is through the roof of people who have been born and raised inside the church, their entire lives, who've attended everything that you've thrown at them, who've been a part of every program, who've walked every single aisle, you were refurbished and reformatted.

They've filled out every card, they've repeated every prayer and they hate Jesus with their lives.

Now the main fault of that is Genesis three and the sin nature that we carry from our father, Adam, I'm not faulting pastors or churches are well-intentioned men of God for that.

That is on the center.

We all are in that case, we're all just dead in our trespasses and sins until the Holy spirit awakens us by the truth and proclamation of the gospel.

That's that's that.

You can't argue that.

That's just what it is.

That's salvation.

That's Christianity.

But at the same time, if you know that, why aren't we more careful? Yeah, that's it.

If you know that, don't you think you should revitalize your entire experience, your worship service to say, I want to do everything in my power to make sure that we're going after disciples and not easy believism converts.

And that includes, why are we dimming the lights? Why are we, why are we dimming the lights for an altar call? Like what, what would you say if someone was like, well, we dim the lights every altar call.

Why? Yeah, because it's easier for them to step out.

Well, okay, maybe it should be hard for them to step out.

Maybe, maybe the light should be on.

Maybe that's a better evidence of the proclamation.

And who's to say we have to know the moment that we were saved.

Where was that guaranteed in the scriptures? Don't you think that a lot of this is right? It in your Bible, Adam and have it, have your spiritual birthday.

Is that the Methodist talking to me? The second, but I am wearing, but you're right.

I'm wearing my Baptist uniform, but I want to, I went to Best Buy earlier.

I'm sorry.

I went to Best Buy earlier.

Three people came up to me and says, sir, can I ask you a question? Like, I don't work here.

You can't wear blue and Best Buy, but you, so you understand that you speak to that first.

Cause I'm curious as to your thoughts on, okay, so we were, you're having an altar call.

People are responding to, to the faith in Christ by proclamation of the gospel of Jesus.

But then all of these other manipulative tactics occur, right? And so the lights are the law.

Maybe we shouldn't have to know exactly when we're saved.

How much do you think that drives how we see the altar call that people need? Cause I think you've talked to a lot of people and get them honest.

They know that that person has a better chance of continually falling in Jesus Christ.

If they can look back at the moment or at the time that they were officially changed and saved, like, like, you know, happened to Spider-Man like one day he's Spider-Man.

He's not going to forget the night he turned into Spider-Man.

That's kind of what they want attached to every, every believer, every disciple.

And so do you think that's motivating a lot of this? I think so.

I think I, I hate to say that.

I'm not sure that it's that, that it's that altruistic.

And again, not, I think what motivates so much based on what I have, I've heard from, from so many pastors in, in conversations like the one you and I had earlier, which was, you know, just you and two pastors talking conversations like that.

I hear things like my church has to see me accomplish something.

Feeling like a failure, feeling like if no one comes forward, I felt like that before.

Yeah.

I don't feel, you know, here I am.

I don't like that.

There was no response.

I'm preaching my heart out.

I give the invitation.

Nobody comes.

That's why people do the, this.

That's why.

And you asked, you asked, what is the true question? I wonder if that was a real hand raise.

Dude, I was at a funeral once.

I was, I was at my friend's father's funeral and the guy preaching, I'll never forget because his, his funeral sermon talked about eating ice cream on Hallelujah Boulevard.

That's what heaven is.

Sounds like a Tom Petty song.

Well, during the, during the sermon, he built up to an invitation at the funeral.

Sure.

And, which is, I, I preached 150 funerals in my life and I've never done that.

I've always put the gospel.

I give the gospel, but I never, I never, I put the gospel in weddings, funerals, anywhere.

Anytime I get this stage, I want the gospel out there.

But this guy said, bow your eyes, close your hands.

No, wait, reverse that.

He said, he's a, bow your heads, close your eyes.

And I didn't, not because I was being a jerk.

My dad never did while we were growing up.

Go ahead.

I wanted to see if this guy was going to be honest.

So I sat up and looked around and he said, I see that hand.

I see that hand.

And Adam, I know my vantage point wasn't the same as his, but I didn't see no hands.

And that, that breaks my heart because that's a lie.

And, and why do we do it? Why do we, I don't think, even though what you were saying, I think there's some merit to the idea that possibly it could be that, that, that people think if we give them this, then that's going to help them drive forward.

It's justified when more hands go up.

Yes.

Yeah.

In their heads.

I'm not saying it is.

And again, I, I really think pastors feel like they have to earn their place.

And in some churches they do, you know, some churches they're always looking for a reason to get rid of.

The numbers of salvation, the numbers of baptisms, you know, and it's like, you maybe not, we maybe don't understand how tedious this was supposed to be.

Like, like Jesus had 12, you know what I'm saying? Like he had a lot more followers, but he invested in, spent time with, and then that 12 built the new Testament church.

So, I mean this, the goal is not, it's not a, it's not a discouragement.

It's saying that discipleship just takes a lot of time.

And part of that too is I think when you get into bigger churches with more people, this isn't all larger churches.

And then even the term large church is a relative term anyway, but like the, because of like big or small, we don't, everything's relative.

But the idea of like really big churches with big altar calls, that's probably part of the reason why they just want to throw everything they can at confessions because they just don't have the manpower on the other side to spend all Sunday with them.

And then that leads into a whole kind of different conversation of can do churches have a limitation in size where they cease being effective or cease being biblical, biblical, like church discipline and, and elder lad and all that.

And I think that all of that from the fifties and in 1960s when there was evangelical explosions and in the fifties, sixties into the moral majority and the foul wells and all that, it became revivalism and worship services sort of intersected in their liturgy and the way in which they conduct their services every day ended up being just like, this is all, this is the only thing we're out to do is change unbelievers into believers.

And that became the goal.

And when that, it becomes when something else becomes the goal other than teaching and preaching the gospel and trusting the Holy spirit, you're going to get pragmatism.

I mean, even Stephen Furtick that he said that blatantly, I was just going to say, yeah, he said that blatantly.

This church is, if you're a believer and disciple and you're wanting to know more about the word of God, you're wanting depth.

He said verbatim, this church is not for you.

That's right.

That's right.

And, and, and I, I've played that.

I teach a class at our Academy.

I'm shameless plug.

I did come here and be a part of it.

Yeah, yeah, we, yeah, do it online.

We have, we have our Academy, which I love to do because teaching is where my heart is.

And, um, we do a class that's the end of the two years and it's, uh, introduction to Christian life and ministry.

Yeah.

Where's, where does God want you in this? And, um, we talk about what the church is and we ask the question, is the church only a Billy Graham crusade? Is the church only a revival service or is there more to it? And I showed the video from Stephen Furtick because he's saying, yeah, if you're saved, we're not for you.

You're not.

And he, and he, and he does make it, he tries to make it, and I'm not putting Billy Graham and Furtick in this.

No, no, no, no, no.

I love Billy Graham to a degree.

I love Furtick.

Furtick was trying to say, at least based on, because I listened to within context, I want to be honest.

I think he was saying, you know, you're now part of your, you know, we're not here to serve you.

You're here to serve the, the unbeliever and get them saved.

But you're right.

The problem with that is you end up with, because he said, we don't do Bible studies.

We only do evangelism.

The longer form of that video.

We don't do theology.

We only do evangelism.

We don't do, and he listed off several things, and he said, and if you want those things, and this, this kind of hit me kind of hard.

He said, you're a fat, lazy Christian.

I was like, bro, that, that, that hurtful.

But, but yet, you know, that's the term because he was trying to, he wanted that to be a soundbite.

He wanted to say basically they're just to feed yourself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're just, you're just an over.

And can that be true? Can we just go to church and have knowledge, puff us up and not do anything in our actions? A hundred percent.

Absolutely.

But your evangelism suffers.

If your discipleship suffers, that's right.

The problem is people started splitting these hairs and they're all on the same scalp.

The five functions of the church are listed next to 42 through 47 rather explicitly.

And you have fellowship, you have teaching of the word, you have worship, you have mission, and you have ministry.

And so it, it, it brings forth James.

It brings forth Romans in perfect harmony to know what you know about the Lord and pro and proclaim it and let your life be your greatest testimony and your greatest witness.

Right? So none of that's, we're not, we're not arguing that you need to apply and put it into evangelism.

You need to apply your faith and preach the word so that people are saved and call them to repentance because that's not, by the way, not just something that happens at the worship service.

It's not just something that happens by the pastor.

We were ambassadors of Jesus Christ and we're saved.

We have a job to do.

That's what really bring it down.

That's what we're doing.

We're trying to bring a church together of disciples who are going out and having a life changing soul winning conversations with people by proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ for what it is and what it says and trusting the Holy Spirit.

So again, this isn't, salvation just doesn't occur at the altar.

They're even diminishing the calling like in terms of its effect and power.

You think you can reach a lot of people through methods and tactics at a worship service? What if you had 500 really serious disciples of Jesus Christ who spent their time by two o'clock talking to two or three people about Jesus? You know, one of the guys I love, uh, is an evangelist.

He has on the back of his computer, he has a thing that he had printed and laminated and says, my name is, and uh, I'm a Christian.

And if you, if you want to talk, have a seat.

So he like puts it up in Starbucks.

He goes to Starbucks and sits for a couple hours a day because he's, that's, this is what he does.

This is just his whole life.

And he's retired.

So he's able to do that.

And he goes, you know, a couple of times a week and he sits there with his coffee and he does his computer.

But it's, but there's a sign literally, this is who I am.

This is what I'm about.

And if you, you know, and he says people come all the time, have conversation with him.

You know, I have shirts.

I used to print t-shirts, so I'll print t-shirts that are intentionally somewhat, um, thought provoking.

Yeah.

I have one that says, uh, how do I know God exists? Same way you do.

That's what, that's what it says.

How do I know God exists? Same way you do.

Romans one.

And so people are going, what do you mean? Yeah.

What does that mean? And I have one that says, I didn't print this one, but it was a friend of mine print.

It says every knee shall bow.

And I remember very specifically one dude said, is that religious? I was like, what do you mean? Yes, sir.

Is this violent? What do you mean? Yeah.

Cause he didn't, I guess he had heard the phrase, but didn't really connect it to Christ.

And what does that mean? Every knee shall bow.

So, um, you know, there are ways that you can, you know, and, and there, and I think there are goofy ways, you know, like, like I remember life, I used to sell testaments.

That was candy.

It was Christian testaments.

The worst, the worst I've seen though, like the, the a hundred dollar bills that aren't a hundred dollar bills and you leave them as like tips to waitresses.

That's awful.

Those tracks.

I'm like, if you want to bring down like the church, like capital C, yeah, just keep doing that.

And I'm a, and I'm a huge gospel track guy.

We, we give out million dollar bills at the fair as a game, but it's a million, a million.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

It's not a waitress living offer tips and you like got $5 in there.

And then that thing, it's like, come on now.

We, we have a, actually we bought server.

Sorry.

I've said waitress now.

Oh yeah.

Be careful.

Server female or male.

Oops.

In hot water again.

The yeah.

Yeah.

Cause I can't, yeah.

I can't, can't know.

I just keep making it worse.

I, yeah.

I was on a flight and I did, I said, I think I said stewardess.

Yeah.

They're flight attendants.

And I mean, you, you might as well be, you know, WC fields, just as chauvinist as it gets.

Hey, hey, bring me.

Hey, darling.

Hey, sweetheart.

I'm out of peanuts over here.

It's like, Nope.

I just, sorry.

My dad called it that when we were flying when I was a kid and embedded in the deepest part of my brain.

My apologies.

I don't hate you.

So many things I want to say.

Thank you, sir.

For my drink.

I can't.

No, but that's, that, that is funny.

No, but the, gosh, what were we talking about? We're talking about now the, the altar called the tract and evangelism and like, oh yeah, we have gospel tracks that are, thank you cards.

Yeah.

And what it says on the back, it says you've provided me a service and I want to first say, thank you.

This will be accompanied by a gratuity.

It says that on there.

And then it goes on to say, but I have something else I'd like to share with you.

And then it has a gospel and it's a little bit of a, a business card size.

It says thank you on the front.

And we give that with a tip.

And I always tell my church, do not give this without a tip.

Like we're very, very specific, right? Like, don't do that.

Cause that's not cool.

And I've heard a lot of, a lot of servers who've told me that they don't look forward to the church crowds.

No, they don't.

They don't look forward to Sunday afternoon crowds.

Cause what they have said was typically sort of entitled.

Yeah.

Like just came out of church, feel very self-righteous, very entitled and bad tippers.

Yeah.

And you know how you have like 11th and 12th graders leaving high school and part of it's like, Hey, are you going to teach me how to, we don't do this anymore, but you know, balance my checkbook or download these bank apps and like figure out how to develop a budget or like, you know, there's a lot more we can do with, how can I make 10 meals? Like these things that are going to take me into a very real application as soon as I leave this place.

I'm like, I'll be able to function.

And then what they learn is like trig and then they go and they're become like a language arts, you know, like an English teacher.

And I'm not demeaning education.

I just mean, sometimes the church, if, if you're, if your goals are wrong, the methods of those goals are wrong, right? Even good goals.

Then what you're doing is you're not feeding the sheep appropriately and then they're leaving and they're not doing what they're called to do and they're not doing what they can actually use.

And so if you're not focusing on discipleship, if you're just focusing on converts, that's all you're going to get.

You'll get people who have professed faith in Jesus Christ and live however they, they, they please.

But if you're focusing on discipleship, then you are sort of embedding them in the truth of God's word and then raising them up as disciples to lean on it more, to know it more, to share it more.

And then that's when the kingdom of God grows.

So I think to me, the altar call, I had a friend of mine, Jonathan Revis says this, a friend of mine says that the altar call is something that happens way beyond Sunday.

Like it starts now and you have until Christ comes back.

But, but there is an urgency today.

Today is the day of salvation.

So I have no problem with, with any of that.

Like preach urgency, be, be, be faithful and be real, but dying man, dying people.

Yeah.

But just, but just don't pretend like R.C.

Sproul said, don't pretend that the gospel or the Holy Spirit needs your help.

Because when it, when we feel like the Holy Spirit needs our help and then we're going to be more prone to manipulation rather than just trusting the Holy Spirit to move in our, in our churches.

Absolutely.

Um, I don't, I don't know if you're a big fan of Ray Comfort or not on a few.

Yeah, I remember Ray.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's a wise, he's a, he's a Kirk Cameron and Way of Master.

Way of Master.

In fact, it's the, the box is right over there.

Todd Freel.

Yes.

Uh, there is a, is a, is spawned off of that.

Are you big on the Wretched Network videos? Oh, we like Wretched.

Uh, we, in fact, one of our church, one of our deacons was, got to meet him, was at a church that he was at.

So it was kind of exciting.

He does love college campus stuff.

Yeah.

And we, we're doing actually, he has a, a, a, a TV or a video series called a road trip to truth that we're doing with our young people right now.

So it's, it's good.

It's good.

We would endorse them.

But, um, the, the thing about Ray Comfort, his sermon that, that sort of put them on the map was, um, uh, hell's best kept secret.

And he has a quote in that sermon from A.W.

Tozer, which I've often used.

And, uh, it's, I didn't read the original source.

I got it from Ray Comfort, but it was A.W.

Tozer saying that, um, that he was convinced that thousands, if not millions of people have been brought into some kind of saving relationship with Jesus through an act of the, of church, the church.

I'm not getting the quote exactly right, but basically they've come into some kind of relationship, but are not genuinely saved.

Yeah.

And he was, he was, he was expressing the, his antipathy toward the revival movement saying that this has been the greatest false convert creation system that we've ever had as in the history of the church.

We think we're being controversial.

Yeah, no, that's what he was saying.

Tozer was like, atomic bomb.

He's just like, he's just like this, this, this has created.

And I, I told a story one time in a sermon and, in the man who, the man who, um, who challenged me on this may even be listening.

He's one of my, one of our church members.

I love him to death.

I, I, I, I, I gave that illustration and I told a story about a, uh, in Texas.

There was a huge revival and they got everybody's name.

Who supposedly got saved during the revival.

And, within a year they did like checking on everyone and it was 30,000 decisions.

Decisions were made, 30,000 decisions at the end of the time.

And I want to say it was like, it was either, it was either 30 or 300.

It was, it was, it was one number that was so ridiculously small compared to 30,000 decisions.