EP 54 A Lover of Truth and Basketball, #forgiveness, #love , #jesus , #truth

Cornerstone Church

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Why is the argument in Romans 3, 28 -31 regarding boasting?

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That the elimination of works removes any ground for boasting. If other new laws could be invented, couldn't they then boast in those laws?

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And that was the decisive moment in the debate because he didn't have an answer to that. He couldn't answer.

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It showed that the entire structure on which he was building this argument, that it was only the law of Moses that was eliminated from the way of salvation, was a straw man argument.

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It crumbled and it burned away and turned, it was sinking sand. The whole edifice could not be supported by that argument because of the very rationale that Paul gave, which is that it eliminates boasting.

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So all this to say, it wasn't an easy question. A billion people on planet earth think that justification is apart from the works of the law of Moses, but Roman Catholic sacraments are necessary according to the

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Council of Trent, right? So the difference is, it's a distinction that requires effort.

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We had to chop this up for three hours until we really got down to the point of difference and the truth.

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And welcome to Tear Down High Places.

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My name's Average Joe. I'm here with Pastor Jeff and Pastor Tim. Glad to see you guys on episode 54.

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It's the end of January, 2025, man. I didn't even think I was going to live this long,

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Jeff. What's going on? Dude, it is a glorious day today. Did you see how bright and sunny it is?

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And the snow is finally melting off. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a balmy 24 degrees out there.

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Oh, is it really? It feels nice compared to whatever happened to the global warming.

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I guess that's all old news. Yeah. Well, it's a blessing because they have to go back to global cooling.

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And you know, and I think I've shared that with some people. That's how they came up with climate change because it does, it changes.

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Go figure. Nothing more ironic than the truth. Tim, how are you, buddy? Oh, man, I'm doing all right.

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I feel blessed. Not too stressed. You know, despite all this mess, I'm all right, man. I'm happy to be here.

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I think you're right. It is. And it probably is in the forties. I is, uh, did, uh, are you guys going to play some basketball today or what?

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Well, we are actually talking about creating a cornerstone men's basketball team and getting in the play more league.

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Yeah. We got some ballers in this church, so I'm a, I'm a little bit washed up. I'm 47 years old, so I don't have any like of the explosiveness, but one thing that doesn't leave is the shot.

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So if I can just get open looks and then I'm also, I've got really long arms. So even though I'm six, four, my wingspan is, is closer to like six, 10.

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So I can block shots when they don't see it coming up over, you know, this old man.

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And I just put the go -go gadget arm up there and I think he's,

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I think he's given us a little false humility. I read some of his clips from his, like just a few years ago,

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I saw some clips about you know, about, uh, what are you pulling down 30, 40 points a game or something just in your late thirties.

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What? I don't know. I like to. Yeah. Tim, were you in that league with him?

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Were you playing? Yeah. Jeff's like a legend at lifetime athletic. They probably are still talking about him with his go -go gadget arms and shooting threes from pro range.

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Oh man. Well, Tim's not going to tell you, I'll brag on him for a minute.

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He led that league in three point percentage. I was like number two, but he was shooting what? 56 % that year for the entire season.

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Sometimes you have a good season. It was easier for me. I was in my twenties in my prime. Jeff was like 39 still.

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Still cooking. Jeff left his cane on the bench and just came out, just ripped off his sweats like this.

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I would get back spasms after the game and it takes me a whole week to be ready to play again. Every time.

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Oh man. Basketball is a fun sport where many, many people play it.

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Different backgrounds and all walks of life and then you get on the court and it's a great way to meet people and connect with people.

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I think basketball is a blessed game. I would like to see our church go into a league and become closer as brothers and be able to, maybe our team name is like Cornerstone Church or something and it'll be a testament to the other teams.

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After we dropped 50 on them, you know, I'm glad to work behind the video camera, but nice.

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I can't even feel it anymore. Oh my gosh. Like the round mound of rebound. Like Charles Barkley just boxes people out and just when

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I was a kid and played, all I did was foul out every game. Yeah. Well you get five. So Tim, Tim was already a great shooter, but he got

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LASIK surgery and then that's when he started shooting like 56 % because his eyes were just locked in on the rim.

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It's like I can finally see it. Wow. I did get LASIK eye surgery.

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So it worked really good on span like this for you. Did it go? Yeah, a little bit.

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That's what it was like. Actually, when I first got glasses, when I was a kid I was playing a lot and needed glasses and my dad didn't get me glasses for some reason because I guess he thought only nerds had glasses and then

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I finally got them and I was like, whoa, this looks completely different. So yeah, and then I got LASIK and it was like another level.

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So it's funny. That's good, man. That's good. Dude, what's basketball gonna be like in heaven or when we have a new heavens and new earth?

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Oh, dude. It's like gravity would be diminished or something and you can jump 20 feet like you're on the moon.

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And you probably won't get any back spasms after playing hard too. That's right. Hey, it's interesting that we've gone in the sports direction because is it next week or is it in a month?

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We have David Wheaton, professional tennis player. He got ranked as high as like number four in the world.

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He played a Wimbledon finals match against Andre Agassi. He's going to be on the podcast either next week or a month from now.

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It's going to be, that's next week, I think. I think that's next week. Which would be great because that's Superbowl week.

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We got our hometown heroes going to the Superbowl. Let's go, Eagles. Let's go.

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The mayor of Philadelphia was like E -L -G -L -E -S -E, just throwing out random letters.

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Yes. Those are the bandwagon fans who don't really know the chant. If you're a real fan, you knew that chant since you were a kid.

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But if you're saying the letters wrong, man, you must have just became a fan because they made the Superbowl. She must be a carpetbagger for Michigan or something.

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I was a Bucs fan growing up. I'm Tampa Bay growing up. I was rooting for the

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Bucs with Warren Sapp and Derrick Brooks and Rondé Barber when they played the

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Eagles in the NFC Championship and the Eagles were favorite. This is like 2003. Rondé got the pick.

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I was like dancing and running everywhere. Now I've changed teams.

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I've been up here long enough. It happened. I moved up here in 2004 and I became an Eagles fan by 2008, 2009.

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I knew this was my forever home. I eventually became an Eagle guy. I've been here for a long time now.

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I feel like true green blood now. You got converted. I did. Converted to the

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Eagles. And the Sixers. I love the Sixers. I'm going to a game tonight. Oh, are you?

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Yeah. I'm going to be at the Kings game. I thought that Embiid might be back, but he's not yet.

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But I have not given up on the Sixers. I still think they have a chance. They've got a horrible record, but if they have the pieces, if they just get healthy.

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That reminds me of what was supposed to be the best basketball game I was ever going to go to when

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I was in my early twenties, buddy of mine's dating this girl in Chicago.

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And so we wanted to go see Michael Jordan play basketball. So we got, it was like new year's weekend. We went out, we're going to go see

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Michael Jordan play. Dude retired like two weeks before we went. And then what was even worse in our, in our, in our hearts was he came back in between him leaving and coming back.

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We did get to see the statue. They threw up pretty quickly though. There was a statue outside of him and you go outside and everybody's like looking at it like this.

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Oh, like what are you doing? Yeah. Finding some idols in the, at the, at the bull stadium.

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It was crazy for sure, man. I, I loved Michael Jordan growing up. I would watch every bulls game.

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Do you think there should be statues outside of like sports complexes and, and statues of men?

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Or do you think that is like a, like a graven image type of thing? What do you guys think on that? It could fall in the realm of art and just honor.

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But I think if somebody is devoting themselves to sports and to a sports figure like that, it can become almost like idolatry.

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So it really depends on the heart of the person more. I don't think necessarily all, we don't need to be iconoclasts and smash every image.

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It depends on what the meaning of the image is. And if it's, I think some of the relics in the Roman Catholic church are certainly worship and those things should be smashed.

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As a former Catholic, I will tell you, I grew up thinking I was praying to the statue. So, I mean, you can say that it's, it's not worship.

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It's what's the word? I forget. But anyway, it is, it's worship. Yeah. It totally works though.

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Not for everybody. I think some art in church, like what if you had some picture in a children's classroom of Moses parting the red sea, is that idolatry to make an image of a work that God had done?

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Where do you draw the line? I think some of these are how a person approaches it. But for that person that thinks it's sin to them, it's sin, right?

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Them it's sin. Yeah. So you can go ahead and sin and I'll just close you out of the room and I'll look at the art and be okay.

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Yeah. I mean, I went to this Roman Catholic church up in New York city and it's like the biggest one near times square there.

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St. Patrick's. Is it St. Patrick's? I think it is. It was creepy, dude. It gave me really demonic vibes just going in there.

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Yeah. Why it had the, well, they had the little statues on the, on the, on the parapets and stuff.

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Yeah. It was, it was so, um, not just the smells and bells, but the level of icon, iconography, um, really did seem to be idolatrous at that point.

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, you got, you got the vote of candles. You go up, you put a little money in there and you light a bunch of candles for people.

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And, uh, and then you sit there and pray, pray under a statue, lighting a candle.

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Who are you lighting the candle for to the statue? I mean, it's a lot of, a lot of, but you know what? Like, I mean, people say they're not praying to an idol, but they're making

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Mary into an idol. Like I think I, the best thing I heard, I forget who I heard this say this, but, uh, they said, there's no way that God is even letting

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Mary know that all these people are praying to her. He's not even letting her know that because there's no that, that the hurt and pain that that would cause her not happening.

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That's some deep thinking right there. Oh, I know. I didn't come up with it. It's totally, it is deep. I'm just,

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I'm just repeating good stuff as I like to do, but yeah, that is some good stuff, right? Yeah.

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Because even in the Roman Catholic theology about indulgences and a treasury of merit that so -called saints accrued in their life by praying to them, you can tap into some of their merit to accrue to your, your benefit.

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So there's even a theological problem in praying to Mary and praying to saints.

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Yeah. Yeah. And that happened in the Bible. They even did try to worship Mary a couple of times, right?

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They, someone yelled out and said, blessed are the breasts that nursed this man.

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Right. And then I think Jesus said something along the lines of like, blessed rather are those who hear and obey my word.

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I could be saying that a little wrong, but I, it's something along those lines where Jesus corrected that and, and, and said, no, that's not right.

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So, so I, I'll, I'll, I'll make another argument for, uh, Catholics actually worshiping these statues because not only is the average

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Catholic, um, theologically illiterate, uh, and I'm just, they just are, uh, the priests are too.

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Cause I remember growing up asking some very simple questions of priests and they were clueless, clueless.

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There was one specifically I always had a problem with. I always asked, uh, cause I went to Catholic high school and Catholic college and I, I asked multiple priests this and not one of them got it right.

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I would always ask, well, if, if the Bible says that thou shalt not kill, why send my, why did my grandfather, why was he sent to war?

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Why, why didn't the Catholic church say he couldn't go to war? And none of them told me to turn the page and see manslaughter on the next page.

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None of them, not one. I mean, it's just the simplest thing. Well, it's even in the, in the 10 commandments, the word for thou shalt not murder is different than kill

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Ecclesiastes three. There is a time to kill time, you know, time for war and peace and all that. But thou shalt not murder is defined biblically.

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The taking of innocent blood, you know, Genesis chapter nine, um, it's, it's slaughtering a person who is not in war and not for a just reason, but, um, unjust killing.

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My understanding is St. Jerome mistranslated it when he went from the Greek to the Vulgate. He wrote,

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I think he wrote, I think that's the right guy. St. Jerome that, that wrote the Latin Vulgate and he, and he, uh, he botched it, botched it big time.

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His biggest botch, I think, uh, is, uh, he translated what should have been, um, repentance into penance.

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Ah, yeah. Wow. What a root of all kinds of deception there. So I grew up Catholic and when

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I got saved, uh, shortly after my little brother Kyle got saved and he was pretty close with the

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Catholic priest at our former, our former Catholic church. And we knew where he lived and we went and talked with him after we became a

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Christian because we went and tried to convert him and try, you know, because we still knew people that went to that church and we wanted to, you know, see what was up with this guy.

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So Kyle being a young guy, he like went to the door and wanted to talk with him and like, he kind of got scared and he kind of came home and then

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I went with them and then we talked with the guy, but man, he, he didn't know much at all. He said he came to the point in his life, this is the priest talking.

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He said he came to the point in his life where he became sinless, where he doesn't sin anymore.

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And we're like, Oh no, man, you're a liar because anyone who says that you're, you're a liar and the truth is not in them.

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So we had to call him out on that one, but there was many... What happened when you called him out?

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Did you take him to the scripture and show him? Oh, we took him to many scriptures and, and, uh, he, he, he wasn't budging.

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He really thought that he was sinless and he was able to forgive sin. And I don't know, he's, we were like, man, you're deceived into thinking that.

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How could you, how could you think that? And he said he was a sinner, but he came to the point now where he doesn't commit any sins.

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How does that kind of group thing come about? How do a whole bunch of people get a common misconception and a common way that we're all going to look at through this smoky glass?

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Well, I think we don't realize the effect that we have on one another. So Roman Catholicism, it's, it's an entire system of thought and people simply take what the priest has to say as being the word of God, but it's a tradition.

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And really Roman Catholicism admits that their tradition is part and parcel of, of their authority structure, just like scripture or, you know, the

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Pope. So they, they rely on tradition as being equal with scripture. So it's, it's something that's handed down and passed down from generation to generation and just accepted, uh, because it's the way they've always been.

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Yeah. Wasn't there something about, um, the one, one mediator between God and man that you guys brought from,

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I think it was first Timothy two. Yeah. Yeah. We brought that to him. Yeah. So there's only one mediator between God and man, and is the man

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Christ Jesus. And I think he tried to say that he's a mediator between Jesus and, and man, and he's like a cell phone that Jesus uses or something like that.

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Yeah. And I forget what Kyle said to him. I would have to call Kyle and see, but Kyle had a pretty good remark back to that.

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I forget what he said, but, um, what it was too, but like, well, why do you need a cell phone when you can talk directly to the man?

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Yeah. Something along those lines. He was like, kind of blown away. Like he had a lot of things.

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He just had no answer for it. And we're afraid to refute back and then, you know, change the topic.

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A lot of people, when you address something with them and they realize they're wrong, they'll quick change the subject. Yeah.

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And I feel like our discernment wasn't strong enough back then to catch him in that and be like, no, wait, let's continue this conversation.

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He would quick go to something different. Then we would refute that. Then he would go to something different again. Yeah. Misdirect.

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Yeah. Misdirect. So. Yeah. There's a guy in our church who was at one time studying to become a

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Catholic priest and the Lord delivered him from that. Wow. And now he's just a wonderful brother, you know, serving the

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Lord. I've known a lot of guys like that. Um, even Jen's uncle for a time, and for most of his life was a staunch

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Catholic. And you guys know from our church, a couple of the brothers, Rich and Mike, they would share the gospel with him all the time.

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Before he died, he completely turned to the truth of Protestant Christianity.

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He used to think Martin Luther was the villain of history. And somehow the

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Lord opened his eyes. It was a conversation that I had with him and the book that I have called good enough on the book of Romans.

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Nice. And the Lord just used, used it. And also conversations just finally opened his eyes.

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Little did we know he'd go to be with the Lord just months after that. He wasn't that old for anybody listening that has been taught the tradition of Roman Catholicism.

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And that's just been handed down. Maybe it's through being an Italian family or Irish Catholic or something like that.

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Truth is not handed down by ethnicity. Truth is for all.

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Colossians three, there is no Jew or Gentile slave or free barbarian, Scythian male or female.

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The truth is the truth. And the truth is Jesus Christ. He is the door for the sheep. So each one of us has to repent of our own sin and put our faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ for the new birth, be baptized as a sign, as a token, um, on account of the remission of sins acts three, um, versus X two verse 38, because that word

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Gar in X two 38, when it says be baptized, Gar, the remission of sins, that is on account of the remission of sins.

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It's not that being baptized would remit the sins, but that it is a demonstration. It's an outward sign of the sins being forgiven.

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All that to say, trust the word of God, be born again. You know, that was the fastest I ever saw you rattle off scripture.

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And I got to tell you, you need to slow that down because there's no way I can get them up and people can read them. Yeah. All right.

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Well, here's the verse I wanted to share today. It's just something that's been on my heart. Okay. After three

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Colossians chapter three verses 12 to 14, just a word to our church, cornerstone church to all churches, universal, just a reminder of Paul's theology of Christian ethics and Christian love behavior.

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You know how Paul always writes with theology first, and then the second half of the book or the latter part of the book is application.

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So in Colossians three, I'm in the ESV versus 12 to 14 put on then as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience bearing with one another.

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And if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other as the Lord has forgiven you.

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So you also must forgive. And that's just been sticking in my heart and mind, just thinking about Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross, how his blood atone for all of our sin and how much we've been forgiven every sin that we've ever committed.

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And now we are called to forgive each other the way Christ has forgiven us. So in my heart,

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I forgive everybody who sinned against me. And I think that is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts that we got to do that.

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And then it says in verse 14, and above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

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So God's beautiful design for the church is harmony. It's love. And that love binds together the body of Christ.

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We are a body. We are one body with many parts. Some are hands, you know, the preachers, the pastors are called and commissioned by God to be the mouthpiece, right?

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The pulpit is given by God to a pastor to preach the word, but the hand and the foot and the elbow and the kneecap are just as important as the mouth.

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That we are one body and we should love each other in the body of Christ and love binding everything together in perfect harmony.

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And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts to which indeed you were called in one body and be thankful.

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And I think that thankfulness is just such an important part of the Christian life. When I look at the blessings in my life, starting with salvation for a sinner like me, how can

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I be anything but thankful for the God who saved me? And then I think about just the blessings in this world.

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Like I was mentioning just how beautiful the day is today. I can't wait to go for a run and just enjoy the sun.

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I'll still have to wear a sweatshirt, you know, but it's warm enough now to run outdoors instead of on a treadmill.

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And just to enjoy that fresh air and to delight in God. I live that way.

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The Lord has granted me peace in my heart. And I think it's just being thankful to recognize how many blessings we have.

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And then I just, I'm so thankful for my family and how wonderful they are and for a house with a roof over my head and the kind of food

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I get to eat. And the fact that I get to go to the Sixers game tonight, even without Joe and Bede, Maxie's going to get to go off and just enjoy life, man.

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Just enjoy life. That's the word that I have today. Amen. That's a great word right there.

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I love it. Colossians 3, bro. Anybody else have scripture that the Lord has been putting on your heart in the last couple of weeks?

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I got a couple, but this one goes a little bit more in line with what you were saying.

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It's Luke chapter 6 verse 32 and following. If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you?

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For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you?

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For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you?

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Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. But love your enemies and do good and lend, expecting nothing in return.

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And your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

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Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. So that's the scripture that I think that kind of goes along with what you're saying.

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But it's true freedom when you start living like that. And it's such a blessing to hear that people living like that, and they see that your reward is going to be great in heaven, and you'll be sons of the

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Most High by living like that. I mean, that's just such an encouragement to my soul to be able to love people and to be able to help people and not do it because I want something in return.

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But when you help people and love people, you're doing it because you actually help and love them and you want to see them do well.

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So when you're living like that, not expecting something in return or thinking that you're entitled to something, and you are living like a thankful life, and you kind of just want to overflow with the things that have been given to you, you're really living.

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Just like Jeff said, you're enjoying life, you're living, you're set free, and you're not weighed down.

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You're not thinking about who owes you this, who owes you that. You have no record in your head. You're just living the life that God puts in front of you, and you're trusting and obeying

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Him. Such a life. There's no other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey. Amen.

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Preach. I'll tell you what. You know what I love about that? I love about that expecting nothing in return makes me think about lending, the lending laws that we have.

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We talk a lot about conservative politics lining up with Christianity all the time, but every once in a while,

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I hear the liberal telling me about how Jesus wanted to give everything away to everybody, but He never wanted...

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And our argument would be, yeah, but He didn't want to steal from us, right? But man, I get to that forgiveness, and I say to myself,

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I wish we lived in a culture that forgave debts every seven years. Oh, that'd be awesome.

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Well, if you want to... And I think to myself, I mean, boy, I'd love to be in a position where I could do that.

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And someday, maybe I get sanctified enough to actually do that. That would be pretty awesome, where I'd say, all right, everybody owes me money.

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We're done. It's the year of Jubilee. I think you're thinking more of theocratic

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Israel than... I am. I would love to live under King David more than... I mean, and I love the

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US. I'm actually feeling very patriotic. Got my 1776 shirt on today with a little flag going.

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Wait, we got to pause and talk about something for a minute, Joe. Trump's been in office for, what, nine days?

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Is this country just being completely turned upside down in a good way, or is this just me? An amazing way.

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What? An amazing way. He's keeping every campaign promise. He's different this time.

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He's pro -life. They said, oh, he's gone pro -choice. He repealed all federal funding for Planned Parenthood, all international funding.

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He took down the government website that was promoting abortion. He's legit right now.

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I hope it stays this way. It feels too good to be true, but can we just celebrate what God is doing in America for a moment?

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He's definitely the man for the time. I think there's a different feel out there, man.

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There is. There's a different feel. Some people might be angry, but do they do well to be angry? Probably not.

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What did you call that? Did you coin that term Trump derangement syndrome,

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Jeff? I'm sure I heard it. You heard it somewhere. People have this false thinking about Trump and who he is, and they believe lies.

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One of them was that he's a liar. He seems like one of the only presidents and politicians that says he's going to do something, and then he goes and actually does it.

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To me, that's not as bad as people are painting him out to be, if he's actually getting some of the stuff done that he said he would.

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Did you see him signing all the executive orders, chatting with the press off the cuff?

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You can't be a liar and do that. Nobody's smart enough. Now, he's really smart. Smart guy.

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Some say the smartest. But he says the smartest. He says he's the smartest. You cannot, even the best liar, can't keep it straight like that.

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No way. He just doesn't care. He's telling you what he feels. He's telling you what he thinks now. Dare I say, just like Jesus, he doesn't always tell you what he's thinking either.

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He holds stuff back, just like Jesus, who I'm just always amazed at how he's not pressed for an answer.

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The Lord has given him some special gifts because the amount of pressure he was under and the number of times it seemed that he was down.

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First of all, just getting hit by a bullet and getting back up and saying, fight, fight, fight. But how does he get enough sleep at night to get up and do the things he has to do every day and put together the team behind the scenes?

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This has got to be the work of God. It's McDonald's for sure. It's definitely the McDonald's, the

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Big Mac, the double McCheese. He had blood in his eye, man, and he still could see.

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He got up and yelled, fight, fight, fight. What kind of man, especially at his age, has the presence of mind to do that?

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If Trump is an unbeliever, which he very well could be, I really have no clue if he's a believer. He definitely is.

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He says he is. Now, it could change any moment, right? But he's said it multiple times. For an unbeliever to have that much courage and boldness is very impressive to me because it's the righteous who are supposed to be bold as a lion, but he has that quality.

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My prayer is that he would convert because how much more boldness and truth and discernment would this man have if he knew the

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Lord? Should we just start calling him Nebuchadnezzar? Oh, man. I thought it was

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Cyrus. What's that? Cyrus was the one that supported Israel. Oh, Cyrus. Wow.

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Yeah, Nebuchadnezzar, he's too old to be turned into an animal and walking around like a beast.

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I don't know. I don't think he's Nebuchadnezzar. Cyrus might be better. But Nebuchadnezzar seemed to be turning around all the time.

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He had some pretty convincing miracles done in front of him, and he's like, oh, okay, I'll go with your God, but then he does something stupid again and then ends up in the grass.

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Listen, the point is not to glorify Trump, whether he's saved or unsaved. The point is God raised him up for such a time as this, and it's

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God who's working in him to will and to do according to his good purpose. So all the glory to God, because our country, guys, we are back.

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We are so back. You see him sign the executive order to free the women that were in prison because of they were praying outside of an abortion clinic.

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There was like 23 of them. 13 of them were rotting in jail, and he said they were all elderly. Yep, he got them out.

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He got the J6ers out for their unjust imprisonment. Oh, they're complaining about that because some of them hit some cops and stuff.

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He's just saying time served, you know? Yeah, well, if there's a case like that, that's different.

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But I'm talking about the guys who walk through open doors. Oftentimes the police were holding the door. The video footage shows.

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Insane. Completely unarmed. What kind of insurrection has nobody carrying any weapons walking around taking pictures?

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Right. But you can't make that argument with some people. We're just talking about the Catholics, and you just can't make an argument.

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The people that there's people like that, they don't get an argument. How do we help people that are so rigid in a position?

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They won't think about things. What's the Bible tell us to do in those situations? Oh, man, that is a huge subject, and it's one of the things

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I'm most passionate about in life is just the importance of truth. Being a lover of truth means to investigate a matter, right?

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To hear both sides of an argument, to weigh it. But I don't know if I've ever mentioned this to you guys.

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I've debated a Roman Catholic apologist. His name is Gary Machuda. He also debated

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James White. But we had this at Hotel ML. Remember the old Hotel ML before they changed the name of it?

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Hotel Mount Laurel. Yeah. Hotel ML. But now I think it's called something else. But it had a big lobby.

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We had tons of people show up, Roman Catholics, Christians. And he was convinced,

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Machuda was convinced, that Romans does not teach justification apart from works.

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And the reason he said that, well, he was confused by Romans 3, verses 28 to 31. And he thought that it was only referring to the law of Moses, that the law of Moses is not part of salvation, but Roman Catholic sacraments are, right?

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So the Roman Catholic theologian debater thinks this way, and I think this way. So how do you think that you come to a knowledge of the truth in that case?

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Should I just start browbeating him? Should I just start making demands upon him that he would see things my way?

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Should I just start yelling and increase the volume or result to ad hominem attacks, right?

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Or should I strawman his argument and burn up the argument that he makes? Or what other fallacy should

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I use? No. A lover of truth says, all right, let's look at the scripture and let's see what it says in context and see if your interpretation of it can be falsified by the text itself.

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And now you try to do the same thing to me. So this is called cross -examination. So when it came to cross -examination,

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I asked him a question. And this is still on YouTube, by the way. It's not on our channel, but it's like, I think I have some old

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Jeff Cleaver YouTube channel or something, but you can watch the Gary Matuta debate. It's really fun.

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There's also one of me debating an imam in Philly. But the great part about it is when I asked him the question, all right, well, if it only refers to the law of Moses, why is the argument in Romans 3, 28 to 31 regarding boasting?

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That the elimination of works removes any ground for boasting. If other new laws could be invented, couldn't they then boast in those laws?

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And that was the decisive moment in the debate because he didn't have an answer to that. He couldn't answer.

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It showed that the entire structure on which he was building this argument, that it was only the law of Moses that was eliminated from the way of salvation was a straw man argument.

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It crumbled and it burned away and turned it, it was sinking sand. The whole edifice could not be supported by that argument because of the very rationale that Paul gave, which is that it eliminates boasting.

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So all this to say, it wasn't an easy question. A billion people on planet earth think that justification is apart from the works of the law of Moses, but Roman Catholic sacraments are necessary according to the

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Council of Trent, right? So the difference is it's a distinction that requires effort.

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We had to chop this up for three hours until we really got down to the point of difference and the truth was brought about.

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So long answer to a short question. But I think truth requires that kind of work. There has to be investigation.

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There has to be cross -examination. There has to be deep thinking to arrive at the point of divergence.

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Where did he go wrong? It was right there in Romans 3, 25 to 31. And once we got to that point,

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I'm not sure that Mechuda ever repented, but I never saw him debate again after that. He used to be on the circuit and then

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I've never seen him do it again. I don't think most Catholics think that way though. I mean, you say there's a million people thinking that way.

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I don't think they're thinking at all. I think they've gone to feelings. Well, it's sacerdotal.

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So they have a priesthood and they rely on whatever the priesthood tells them. So they don't even feel the need to handle scripture themselves.

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That's the big difference. Martin Luther is saying, read the Bible yourself. And the Roman Catholic Church to answer to that was like, wait a minute, that makes everybody a

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Pope. That makes each one their own private interpreter and it's going to lead to error.

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I didn't start studying Catholicism until I went to a Protestant church and I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something sinful, you know, like, oh, this sounds really good.

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I better make sure I'm going to the right place. But yeah, I think most of these Catholics are thinking just, you know, you said sacerdotal.

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They're thinking with their feelings, which is like we had that same thing in politics, right? Some people think logically, some people think with feelings and they emote and that's what we got to protect those people that emote more than think.

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And we got to remember. I'm sorry, Joe. We got to remember that love rejoices with the truth.

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So if you love God and you love the truth, if two people are arguing and maybe, you know, one more than the other, and you really want one of them to be right.

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You can't just make a decision on who you like better. You have to hear both sides and say,

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I love God and I love the truth. I can't lie. I got it. I got to go with what's right. All right.

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Give me an example of that in your life, Tim. When has that happened where you wanted somebody to be right, but you stepped back and you looked at it and you said, hmm,

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I got to evaluate it. And then what was the process you went through to evaluate? It doesn't matter if it went one way or the other, but like, how do you do that?

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How do you come to the truth? How do you, biblically, how do we do that? I would have to, man, Joe, I would have to pause because I have to think of a situation like that that I can share.

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How about you, Jeff? Does someone else have one they can think of while I'm thinking? I guess

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I'll share one from a long distance past, trying not to expose anybody. There were some leaders that I was leading alongside in a church situation that really cared for a particular woman in the church.

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And she showed up at church with a boyfriend who was not her husband. And because she was so well -liked, the leaders were trying to be supportive of her.

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And when she told them that she never filed the wedding paperwork after the ceremony, she was never married, she claimed.

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And the leaders emoted desiring to be supportive of her and bless the new boyfriend relationship, agreeing, well, she was never married.

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She never filed the paperwork. And so at that point in time, the whole leadership was going along this train of thought.

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And I had to stand up against that because the truth is, even if she never filed the paperwork, she stood in covenant before God.

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And she made vows in the presence of the living God. She entered covenant and made her wedding vows. And she needs to be regarded as married.

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And if she's going to get divorced, she needs to be divorced the right way. And believe it or not, it became a major rift in the church leadership because I wouldn't relent and give blessing to this, and neither would they.

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Now, time and truth walk hand in hand. Later, it came out that she in fact had filed the paperwork.

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That was all a lie to try to obfuscate and justify herself.

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But the emoting of the leaders that followed her, there was a pull towards that because, hey, you love this person.

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She's so friendly. And she's seeming to be trying hard to do what's right.

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Heart goes out to her. She even claimed that the guy was not abusive, but close to abusive.

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And you know how the world describes men in a relationship when they want to break up a relationship.

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That always happens. So long story short, if you just go by emotions, it's

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Believe Women, right? It's the Me Too movement. And churches, sadly, tend to do that.

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I mean, Joe, have you had any experiences with that, where church leadership just sides with emotional arguments rather than the truth?

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Yeah, I hate to talk about my own situation, but I've helped other guys.

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You know what I've seen that's really horrible is when it comes to sexual sin, the man is held accountable and the woman is not all the time, all the time.

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And we're not going into 1 Corinthians 7, which is very clear that the man's body is not his own.

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The woman's body is not his own. And the law, the hashtag Me Too law, especially that you just mentioned, would violate our

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Christian freedom to expect that a man in matrimony is giving his whole self, including his body, to his wife, and the wife is giving her whole self, including her body, to her husband.

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Our culture won't allow that. And it's interesting, too. Another thing that drives me nuts, whenever I go to the bank, they don't like to treat me and my wife as one flesh.

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We're like two identities, and we're always like, I can't get in hers, and she can't get in mine. It's like our whole culture is just trying to keep us as individuals, not as one flesh.

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Yeah. Wow. So there's that. All right. Well, I feel like we've gone down the road of love and truth, the importance of love, the importance of truth.

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And I think those two have to be kept together. When we speak the truth, we speak the truth in love. Yeah. How we speak should be words seasoned with salt, kindness, and gentleness being remembered without failing to say the hard things.

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So that's the difficulty of life and ministry, is that you have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

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Right? So in Acts 20, Paul says, I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

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You have to say the whole thing. The Joel Osteens of the world who say, I'm not going to speak about sin.

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I'm never going to call anybody to repent. Never going to call people to apologize. That kind of Christianity results in false converts that have never come to a point of conversion.

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They've never repented and believed. Similarly, though, we have to have love in our hearts. And while we're speaking the truth, we have to continue to love the person and desire their repentance.

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There's nothing in me that wants people who have wandered into sin to go to the pit of hell.

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I don't want them to go off to another church. I don't want them to go and have their shipwrecked marriage or some bad thing happening to them.

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My desire is for them to come back. Based on your actions, too, because you're not talking about primarily warm, gushy feelings.

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You're talking about love them by helping them and even telling them hard things. Right? Yes.

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And that is love. If a person is unwilling to tell the truth, the whole truth, and really say some hard things, you know, a slap from a friend is better than a kiss from an enemy.

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Amen. And if you're unwilling to do that, that's not love. But it also means that when you are saying hard things, you season your words with salt.

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You do your best to be loving and gentle in how you tell the truth. And a fool hates correction, too.

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So if they're not receiving that, how do you lovingly tell them that they're a fool?

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Euthetically, you're a fool. Yeah, euthetically. The word euthetic for those listening comes from the word admonish in the

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Greek. It really means exhort, admonish, say hard things. And so euthetic counseling is biblical counseling.

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It's when you apply the word of God to an area of sin. When a person sitting in a counseling office is struggling with X, Y, and Z, a therapist in the world will say, well, this is your diagnosis.

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This is why you're a victim. So I'm going to give you this diagnosis and maybe some pills and go away, come back next week, and we'll keep collecting this paycheck every week for the next six years.

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But euthetic counseling cuts to the heart of the matter. And it doesn't mean that there aren't such things as diagnoses, because there really are mental disorders or conditions or bad wiring in the brain.

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And those kind of things can be real. But euthetic counseling addresses sin where they see it, where the counselor sees it.

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So, Joe, when you mentioned that, what do you mean when you say euthetic or going euthetic?

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Yeah, being very direct, just to get to the bottom line. I think about how awful it is for so many people to have this kind of struggle or that kind of struggle.

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No one loves them enough to say, you know what? If you just stop doing X, that issue would go away.

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Might not go away. I like that, Joe, better than saying, how do you tell them that they're a fool? Although the

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Bible does use that language in Proverbs 14 .1. The fool says in his heart, there is no

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God. And that right there is an atheism. It's just as if regarding as if there is no God in their heart.

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They live their life as if they're not accountable to a God for all their words and their actions. And that's foolish, right?

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But euthetically, you don't have to say you fool. In fact, Jesus said, if you say you fool, then you're in danger of hell because they're made in the image of God.

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So to ask the question, don't resort to name calling.

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Don't call somebody a fool. But you do say the hard things and you say the truth as best you can.

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You know, you're not going to be perfect. You do your best to tell the truth. And most people who are hardened in sin are not going to receive that.

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Even if you have all the salt in the world to season your words. Or if they're full of anger in the moment.

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If they're full of anger in the moment, you just got to pause and wait. You know? Yes. So just timing.

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Amen. What do you think, Sam? We'll wrap it up. So I like the full talk. I think that comes from Matthew 5.

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And then also, I think it's Matthew 5 or 6. It talks about, Jesus talks about how like the measure of judgment, also in Luke 6, the measure of judgment that you give will also be measured to you.

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And then that's also coupled with, you know, looking at someone and making sure that there's no log in your own eye before you get mad at the speck in someone else's eye.

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So that changed my whole thinking because I realized a lot of the stuff that I'm mad at, a lot of the brothers or sisters that I get angry with or say something or pass judgment towards,

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I realize I'm doing the very thing that I'm calling out. So now I've learned to make sure when I say something to someone else that I'm not doing the exact thing that I'm calling out.

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Because I see like in the Gospels, there's so much irony with how the Pharisees treat

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Jesus, although Jesus is doing nothing wrong. But every time the Pharisees accuse him of something, it's actually their problem.

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So I see that in life when other people are yelling at other people or accusing of other people.

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Every time it's like, wait a minute, I know you are, but what am I? It's almost like you're doing the very thing that you're getting mad at, but you don't see it because there's a huge log in your eye.

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So I've noticed that that happens a lot. And all this judgment that we pass, I really think there's a way that God can look into our lives and see the big picture and give that very judgment we're giving back to us.

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So I just am more mindful and careful in the way that I pass that judgment now, because a lot of times there's irony to it.

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That's a great word. And I fully agree. Let's close in prayer. Do you mind if I just close this in prayer, Joe?

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Oh, you got one more thing to say. I'm sorry. I have to. Because you told me to get a scripture ready.

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And so I did. And it goes perfectly with the scriptures you guys were saying. Bring it.

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I want to hear some Bible. All right. Well, here we go. James chapter four. What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you?

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Is it not this? Is it not that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have. You murder and covet.

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You cannot obtain. So you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask. You do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions.

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I love this verse because it flipped my understanding of arguments.

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And I was an argumentative person. Dare I say an angry person at one point in my life.

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And this nuthetically flipped me upside down to realize that I was the one causing my own anger.

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Wow. Never realized that. Flip back a chapter in that app of yours. And let's look at James chapter three about the power of the tongue.

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Three one. James three one and following. There it is. Verse six. And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness.

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Yeah. And read the part about the forest fire. Oh, how great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire.

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And the tongue is the fire, a world of unrighteousness. So it's saying that that little tongue, a little tiny tongue can start a whole forest of fire.

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And which we are seeing right now in Los Angeles, right? That's right. Yeah. Let me pray.

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Let's pray. I got text messages coming in. I got answers. So we got to sign off the tearing down high places.

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Let's close it in a word of prayer. Gracious Heavenly Father, we thank you so much that you are gracious and merciful towards us.

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Lord, help us to be more like you. Lord, I thank you so much that you have given your one and only son to bleed and die for sinners like us.

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I pray, Lord, that we would be willing to bear one another's burdens, that we would make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ and how we endure sufferings for the sake of the church.

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Lord, thank you so much for your word. I pray that each one of us will look deep down into our own hearts, examine our own hearts, and confess our own sins before you, and then show love and gentleness, even with truth spoken in love, as we go forth to treat one another the way you have treated us.

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So Lord, we pray, Lord, for our church. We pray for ourselves. We pray for the church universal and the church in America on this new day of small beginnings,

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Lord, as America has been given a new lease on life. Lord, you have corrected so many injustices, and you have really set the stage for the freedoms that the church needs to thrive.

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And we thank you for this land of freedom that you have put us in. Lord, as the new year has rolled up on us now, and the snow is melting, and the cold winter is passing,

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Lord God, we pray that we come now into the warmth of day, in the light of your presence, and that you send us out as messengers of the kingdom of light, that we are children of day.

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Send us out to tell the world about Jesus Christ. Lord, give us chances to witness, to go out to the communities at the college campuses, and the

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Jewish population in Cherry Hill, and the inner city in Philadelphia. Lord God, you have given us mission fields that are ripe for the harvest.

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Now, fill us with your Holy Spirit, and send us out with the joy of the Lord. Help us to love one another, forgive one another, bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.