Surrounded by Mormon Missionaries: Hawaii

Meeting Mormon Missionaries in Hawaii

Hey guys, you guys Latter-day Saints? What's up? Hey, I'm Jeff. How you doing? What's your name? Mendoza. Mendoza? Where you from? Philippines. The Philippines? What's up? Where you from? Virginia. Virginia?

Oh yeah. Where in Virginia? Frederick Square. Frederick, is that north, south? Pretty far north. Really? Okay. Right on, like closer to DC? Yeah, really close to DC. Really? Right on.

Oh yeah, a little south of there. I lived in Sterling for five years. Oh sweet. Awesome.

I lived in Maryland, so not too far. Awesome. Where you from? California. Where out of California? Oakland. Oakland. That's hardcore. I'm in Berkeley. Okay, all right. But most people don't know where that is.

Yeah. Okay, right on. Where you from? Utah. Utah? Oh, well, wow, the motherland. I went to high school with this guy. Did you really? Wow, where out in Utah? Midway. Midway? I'm not sure where that's in.

You know where Park City is? Park City. Yeah, okay, I know where Park City is. Okay, yeah. Yeah, right on. So you here on your mission? Yeah. How long you guys been on your mission for? A while. Two years, over a year.

These guys are going home soon. Okay, you guys are going home. You guys are... Like over a year, yeah. Okay, right on. Well, that's a pretty sweet, pretty sweet gig getting to Kauai. Did I? It is. Right now it is.

Right on. So you guys, Latter-day Saints in Kauai, on your mission. Why, what's your testimony? Why'd you, uh, why'd you come?

Why They Chose to Serve a Mission

Yeah.

Well, like,.

Just to tell the world, or people of Kauai, or the Hawaii, people of Hawaii, that God loves them, that families can be together forever through the gospel. That's why we're here. It's up to them. We only invite people.

We don't force them. We invite them to come unto Christ, but it's still their choice. So I've heard, we do our best, and we pray every day to find those opportunities that we can to help other people.

Right on.

For me? Yeah.

I feel like I kind of had to wade through a lot of crap to get to my faith to the point where it is right now.

Okay. And so,.

For me, I feel like I'm out here because I can show people where I made mistakes, and where I could have gone to kind of get there faster. So I can just kind of help people to gain faith, to gain testimony.

Faster than I did, easier than I did. Okay. Were you, uh, raised in the church? Yes, but I struggled with it. Oh, okay. Okay, gotcha. But parents? Yeah. LDS? Yeah, they were always really strong. Okay, right on.

Okay, how about you?

Something that made me happy, and I wanted people to have the chance to learn about it if they want to. Okay.

Did you always plan to go on your mission, or sort of a last-minute thing? No. No?

It was always something that was on my mind, but kind of like what I'm saying here was something that, I wanted to make sure it was something I believed in before I went out and did it, if that makes sense.

Yeah. So I didn't want to just do it because I was supposed to, or do it because people expect me to, but I wanted to do it because it's something I wanted to do. Okay.

How about you, man?

I knew that Christ had died for us, right, and that this gospel will bring us closest to Christ, to be able to live and be with our families forever, and not only share that with others.

Right on. So, uh, how'd you get your testimony? Like, what happened? What did you study? What did you, what happened in your lives to get you to the point where you said, Joseph Smith's a prophet, and this is all true?

Okay.

What would that process look like?

Well, my family also had connections to the church my whole life, but they encouraged me not to just do it because they were doing it, wanted me to believe it. Okay. So I would go to church. I kind of learned that kind of thing.

Studied the Bible, studied that. Went into other churches, hung out with other churches. I went to college for a little bit, and had some experiences there where my friend started to kind of learn for herself, and she had questions.

Just, I just ended up talking to her a lot, and from what she was talking about, it reminded me the happiness that I felt, per se, in my childhood. The times when I felt really good, and I decided that I was looking at them like, you know, it's times when I was living the gospel.

It's times when I was doing my best to have a good life. I wasn't perfect. Still mess up all the time. Even a missionary, I still mess up all the time. But it got me to a point where it was something I wanted to pray about, to know if that's what was happening, if that's where I needed to go, and I got my answers.

Testing Joseph Smith by Scripture

Yeah.

Anybody else have any profound experiences?

I always like to share. I just kind of got tired of a lot of people telling me that Joseph Smith was a prophet, Book of Mormon was true, and then a lot of people telling me that it wasn't. It kind of, like, escalated on both sides to a point where I was like, all right, stop.

And I just kind of pushed everything else out of the way, and just studied the scriptures and prayed.

That's really cool. So, so you were in a Virginia. Yes. And so you talked to people who didn't believe Joseph was a prophet. Even were very against it. So super opposed, or what people call anti. Yeah.

Okay. So what'd you do with that conflict? How did you resolve that when you have people coming from both sides? What did you say you went to the scriptures? Yeah. What was that like? I tried to kind of like.

Keep what I believe separate from what they believe, but I also tried to listen to them. Okay. Because, like, obviously they're at their point for a reason. So I tried to, like, I kept them separate from what I personally believe, but I also tried to take everyone's opinion into account.

And it just got to a point where it was like, okay, either I believe something that's insane, or I believe something that's true enough for people to think it's insane. And so I, I just kind of stopped listening to everybody and I studied, and I made, like, a big list of all the stuff that I thought didn't make sense.

Okay.

What was one of those things for you that you, you saw it as, as a conflict initially, and you, then you started looking into it, and then you resolved it. Well, what would one of those things be?

Probably the need for a restoration. I don't know how familiar you are with Mormon beliefs.

A bit. I've raised around Mormons. I live in, I live in, I actually live in Arizona. And so, it's Mesa, Arizona. I'm not sure if you know. It's like, it's like second, I think, well, at least at one point there was like, there was like the second largest Mormon population besides, you know, Utah.

So I am familiar. It's my son, Stellar.

Nice to meet you, Stellar. Can we wave at your camera? Is that okay? I've been wanting to.

Yeah, absolutely, of course, of course. We love to show dialogue between Latter-day Saints and Christians to show that there can be love and grace and respect and gentleness, and, and that we can listen.

The Restoration and the Need for More Scripture

So what was that, what was that like? The restoration, the need for restoration for you. The need for the Book of Mormon. Okay. That was a big one for me.

Okay. I read some scriptures, been told about some scriptures in the Bible where it says like, you don't need any more scripture. This is all you need to be saved. So I really struggled with that.

So Christians probably used Revelation, don't add to the words of this book, or God will add to you the plagues that are in this book, and saying, well, that means the whole Bible, when it's really referring to Revelation, right?

There'd be other texts that would say don't add to God's Word, but specifically that would be the response. Yeah, right? Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

No, I just had a lot of good Christian friends that disagreed with me, but respected what I believed. Yeah. There were other people that did not respect what I believed, and so I just went through and I studied really carefully what the scripture meant, and the background of it, and like you were saying, how it was specifically meant for Revelation.

Yeah. And all sorts of different stuff, and just, it really just came down to a million little things rather than one big thing. Okay. The big stuff came later. I had to get a million little answers before I could get one big one.

Good. So how do you, I mean, we live in a time when I was, one of my good, good friends in high school, his name was Wade, sweetest family, Latter-day Saints, like, I love your community. I love you, some of the, I think you guys are some of the sweetest, most gracious, wonderful people, and so my good friend in high school, Wade, was deeply devout Latter-day Saint family, and he introduced me to Mormonism, and and so I, I entered into, like, relationships with Latter-day Saints with a close friend, and family fed me all the time, and I had more missionaries in my house all the time, and so like, that was like, for me, no, it was, it was an amazing experience, like, I, I cherish it, because it introduced me to a community of people that I really care about, that I disagree with, but that I really, really care about, and just, I've gained a lot of respect for.

So, in, in the conflicts that I had early on with, with Wade and I, as I was searching the scriptures, and he was, give me a book of Mormon, tell me to pray about it, everything else, was, my, my problems were, like, not over the little things, you know, like, people, people get offensive at times, even Christians, professing Christians will get offensive with Latter-day Saints.

They'll say things like, tell me about that silly underwear, you know, and it's offensive, like, there's Christians that wear strange underwear that I don't want to talk about, right? So, Christians would go to, like, silly things, like, how come you don't drink coffee, like, what's with the coffee stuff?

So, for me, it was more fundamental, and I think in the scriptures, more fundamental. It's the issue of who is God, and how do you come to know Him? And so, from, from my initial conflict with my, with my good friends, it was about Jesus, and how do I come to know God?

And when, when you were, when you were studying, and really trying to resolve the conflicts, now that we live in this age of freedom to access to information, Google is, like, just instant information, did you do any research, and, and look at some of the major.

Disputes between, say, Mormons, and? And I talked to a lot of people that were really well-educated in their own religions.

Did you? Okay, what was that like?

It was fascinating. Okay. I really loved it. I talked to, like,.

I.

Talked to... Can you get me a water real fast? I'm, like, dying of thirst.

I talked to one lady that was a Judeo-Christian. She was Jewish, fully Jewish, but she also believed in the Messiah. Okay. That was really cool, and she shared a lot about, like, older Jewish stuff. Yeah.

I didn't know about, and how it kind of enhanced Christianity. Yeah. Which I should have known, but I didn't. So, uh,.

Messianic Jew. Yeah. Is that how she referred to herself? Yeah. Fascinating people, right? Totally. And just other people, like, pastors of different faiths.

Okay. Just members, like, regular members that didn't know as much, but they knew what they believed. Okay. And I loved just learning about what all the other ones believed, and it... I don't know if it clarified my understanding of the doctrine.

Mm-hmm. It clarified my understanding of the people.

Okay. Oh, thank you. Sorry. It's been so hot today.

No, we feel you. It's been humid, too. It's not just the... Yeah. It's a lot better today than it has been.

How long have you guys been here for? So, uh... A little more than two weeks for me, about a week, about a week for him. Can I, can I ask you, like, one question, and see just how you would, you would try to resolve it?

Because for me, from the very beginning, and talking to my Mormon friends, close Mormon friends, it's always been surrounding, like, the simple issues. Who is God, and how do I come to know him? So, I spend a lot of time reading Joseph's writings, and reading the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Journal of Discourses, History of the Church, those sorts of things.

Listening to... A whole spiel, man. A lot. A lot. And the reason, honestly, and I, this, I'll just be completely transparent, it's, I think, a deep love and passion for just people in general, and for the gospel for me.

But honestly, in a practical level, it was the, it was the, the sweetness and the genuineness of my Mormon friends that caused me to want to dive in and listen. So, like, the King Follett Discourse. Do you know the discourse?

Yeah, so it's Joseph's, it's his most famous message, and it's the one where he really communicated with clarity everything he believes about God. And he said that God himself was once as we are now, and as an exalted man, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens.

And he says, we've imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil so that you may see. You've got to learn to become gods yourselves the same way all gods have done before you.

So, you see how much I've read it. I know it by heart. So, for me as a Christian, when my friends said, you've got to read the Book of Mormon, you've got to pray about it, the gospel needed to be restored, and Joseph was a prophet.

I was actually a very young believer at the time. I wasn't raised in church. And so I had read the Gospel of John at least by then. And when I read the King Follett Discourse with the Gospel of John, I started feeling the conflict.

So, Joseph says that you can become a god, and that's the goal. Eternal life is becoming God. And he said that God wasn't always God. He became God. And so, what do you do as a genuine, genuine, honest, sincere, Latter-day Saint?

What do you do with, say, a Christian who says, Joseph came almost 2 ,000 years later with a different view of God than the scriptures had already laid down. So, just one thing to aim at, okay? In Isaiah 43, 10, God says, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall it be after me.

I'm the first and I'm the last. Besides me there is no God. That's in Isaiah 44, 6. So, God says there's no gods formed before him, none after him. He's the first, the last. He doesn't even know of any other gods.

Then Joseph comes along and says, They're all wrong. All the creeds are an abomination. All the professors are corrupt, right? Quotes! I like it! Yeah, and to join none of them, because they're all wrong.

And so, Christians have the Bible that says one thing about God, and they've been teaching one thing historically about God for 2 ,000 years, and Joseph says they're all wrong. God was a man who became a god.

He had gods before him, and you can become one one day. But in just one text alone, and there's many, God says, None before, none after. Isaiah 43, 10. How do you address that? Because I believe you're sincere and devout.

But how do you address that? That's two different views of God.

That was one that confused me. Because there were scriptures in the Bible itself that, at least to me, seem to contradict each other.

Okay.

And the Bible has very few contradictions, once you actually get into it and really understand the background. But there are some scriptures that seem to insinuate that you would go on to eternal perfection, and there are some scriptures that seem to insinuate that God was the only one that could ever and would ever be perfect.

Okay.

And so, for me, I tried to juxtapose those scriptures, and they didn't match up. And so, I think I just had to change the way I saw what God was saying in that scripture. There is no other God besides God, because He's the only one we're ever going to worship.

And the way I interpret that scripture in Isaiah is that He is our only God that we will ever have. We're never going to worship anybody greater. There never will be anybody greater for us. And if we ever become a god someday, it's going to be in a very different, you know, God's not going to turn around and worship us.

No, of course.

And it would be a mischaracterization of your beliefs if somebody said that. Like, the God's all of a sudden going to bow to you or something like that. That would be inaccurate, and you guys definitely don't believe that.

But see, just that text in Isaiah 43 10 says, Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. And he says, Is there a God besides me? Same text. Indeed, there is no other God. I know not one.

He says he doesn't even know of any other gods. But Joseph said that there's a council of God, and they came together and they concocted and prepared a plan to create the world and the people it. In the Pearl of Great Price, early on in 1830, in the original Book of Mormon, it's essentially monotheistic.

There's only one God. But by the time 1844 comes along, Joseph's views have progressed, and now he believes in polytheism, many gods. That's why you see in the Pearl of Great Price, it says in the beginning that God's created the heavens and the earth.

There was a shift. But in Isaiah, he says no gods were formed before him. None will be after him. He doesn't even know of any other gods. Now, when I was asking you about your testimonies, I was wondering because all my Mormon friends have said, I prayed about it.

I had this experience, right? That's how I know it's true. I felt it. I felt the burning in the bosom, and that's how I know that it's true. And I don't mean this as an offensive thing, but I rarely find a Mormon friend who has said, it wasn't my experience, simply.

It was the text of God's Word. I tested it by scripture. So, for example, the test of a prophet in Deuteronomy chapter 13. I don't want to belabor the point, just keep talking. But in Deuteronomy 13, 1 through 4, this is really important, guys, especially since you're on your mission.

God tells his people the way that you know somebody is from him, that they're truly a prophet of God. And the test of a prophet is not the signs and wonders, if they even have them. It's if they lead you after a different God.

He says, God says, I'm testing you to see whether you love me. And the test of a prophet wasn't whether it felt good, looked good, seemed good. It was whether somebody contradicted with what God had already said.

So here you have God telling us in his Word that he'll preserve his Word. It'll never fall away. Jesus says that. The grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands forever. The Bible's saying there is only one God, none before, none after, and he doesn't even know any other gods.

Joseph comes along in 1830, publishes the Book of Mormon, and he ends up teaching that it's all wrong. There are many gods, gods without number. You can become one one day. God had gods before him. So God says test him by the Scriptures.

Did you ever do that? Did you ever test Joseph by the Scriptures?

Hey, Gigi. How are you?

You guys heard me last night?

Yeah, how you feeling today?

Could be better.

I'm glad you're alive.

Surprisingly.

So did you ever test him by Scripture?

Testing Joseph Smith's Teachings About Jesus

So by test him by Scripture, do you mean like reading all the Scriptures and comparing every single Scripture to Joseph Smith, or do you mean?

Well, I mean, I guess that'd be unfair. That'd be an unfair standard to say, Elder, did you look at every verse and compare it with all the teachings of the Bible? And Joseph, that's a huge volume of literature.

But just as an example, like say the basic stuff, like what Joseph said about Jesus versus what the Bible teaches about Jesus. Did you do that? Or did you base it solely really upon that experience?

Well, I guess for me, I've never had a burning in the bosom.

Okay.

I'm kind of jealous of people that do have burning in the bosoms.

Okay.

That's not really my thing.

Okay.

But what I do based off, like I told you a little before, is based off how I feel. Because I do know when I've read the Scriptures, when I've read the Bible, and I am no Bible scholar. I'm jealous that you have all these Scriptures memorized.

That's not really my thing. I'm just a 20-year-old man, not even trained to do this, but it's something I feel passionately about. But when I have read it, I have been told that what is leading me towards God is never going to give me the bad fruits of the Spirit, as they say in Galatians.

Right.

It's not going to lead me astray where I'm feeling awful. It's not leading me astray where I know that I'm worshiping other gods. What I can tell you is I have followed what Joseph Smith has said, and I have followed the Book of Mormon.

I have never, ever felt like I've been worshiping more than one God, my Eternal Father. Now, I have read this discourse. I do know what you're talking about.

Yeah.

But as far as my experiences personally with the Scriptures, I never have had any doubts about worshiping my Father. I do understand that I worship Him through the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

The Holy Ghost is a big part of my life, but I see them as three separate people who are all guiding me to one God. Same with everything in the Scriptures for me. Many different prophets, many different ideas.

Isaiah talked very differently than Joseph Smith. That is true. But they're all leading me to the same person and have all led me to the same feelings I feel now.

I appreciate that explanation.

That's personal, like for me. I mean, obviously, that's not the same for everyone.

Sure. No, no. I appreciate the honesty and the transparency. So, can I give you an example that wouldn't include you and I?

Please.

So, you mentioned Father. We're using the same language. So, we're speaking Christianese, right? Heavenly Father, Jesus. We are, right? We're using the same language. But we mean so many different things.

So, take us out of the equation for a minute. And say, take for example, not a lot of Muslims in Kauai, I've discovered.

Not too many.

Right? Not too many.

Not many, many here.

But if you and I walk up together to a Muslim on the street, if we found one in Kauai, and we said, hey, do you believe in Jesus? What would they say?

Yes, as a prophet.

They would say, yeah, he's a prophet, right? Now, if you and I together, knowing some of our differences, walked up to that same Muslim and we said, you believe in Jesus? He said, yeah, peace be upon him.

He's a prophet of God. And we said, did he die on a cross for sins and did he rise from the dead? They will say, Jesus never did that. And if we said, is he the divine son of God? They would say, no, he was a prophet.

A Rasul, right? So, here we have, we're using the word Jesus, but that Muslim doesn't believe in Jesus, does he?

Not in the way that we believe in Christ.

Not in the way that the Bible says, right? Because if you walk up to that Muslim and you would say, who's Jesus? He'd say, he didn't die on a cross, he didn't rise from the dead, and he's a prophet. But not divine son of God.

So, that is the word Jesus, but not Jesus. Now, if we also, and this is here, Jehovah's Witnesses, right? So, if we walked up together to Jehovah's Witness and we said, do you believe in Jesus? They would say, yes.

But...

Right, right. They believe he's Michael the Archangel, the first and greatest creation of Jehovah God, right? 144 ,000 enter into paradise with God, right? All that. So, the point is, is the word Jesus is there, but it's not Jesus, right?

So, the question is, is this. Because Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. He said he was the only way to God. I know you believe that. I respect that.

You guys are vigilant around that truth that whoever Christ is, he's the only way to the Father. And you guys are dedicated to that. So, I respect that. But, 2 Corinthians 11, in the first century, Paul warns the church in Corinth that he's worried about them, that they'll be deceived and follow another Jesus, another Christ, another spirit, another gospel.

That's in the first century, not long after the resurrection. So, the question is, do you have the true Christ? So, one thing, one major thing. I mentioned John a moment ago, right? It says in John 1, verse 1, in the beginning was the word.

You can finish it, right? And the word was with God, and the word was God, right? It says he was in the beginning with God, all things were created through him, and nothing came into being that's come into being except through him.

So, Jesus, it says in John 1, always existed, always existed with the Father, and he was, by very nature, God. He created everything. Nothing came into existence apart from him. Now, I believe that. But Joseph's revelation denies that, because Joseph taught that there were multitudes of gods before God who created things, right?

And he taught that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers. Jesus isn't the creator of Lucifer, like the Bible says. He's his brother. That's a different Christ.

I see what you're talking about. I see what you're talking about. But I guess the thing that I would say, at least for me, is I do Like, what you're saying is that Jesus created everything, right?

Created the world, created all that.

Everything. Without him, nothing came into being.

We absolutely agree with that. But we believe that they created it hand-in-hand with God. Now, if you're putting it with that same, then some people would say that Jesus was God, you might say.

Yes.

But what we see is just because they both have that same name doesn't mean they're the same person. Just because they have the same name doesn't mean that they're both God.

Actually, I'm with you 100%. As a matter of fact, historically, based upon the scriptures, the Christian church has never taught that Jesus is the Father. That's actually—was cast out as heresy early on in the church.

Many people think that's what the Trinity is, that Jesus is the Father, the Father is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. But that's actually heretical teaching. The Christians have never taught that. We believe there's one God by nature, three eternal, coexistent persons sharing the one being of God.

Not three beings, one being, three persons. Joseph taught that there are—. Yeah, Joseph taught there are three beings who are gods of this earth, right? And then multiple gods outside of that. But a moment ago, I appreciate what you said.

You said—you affirmed, John 1, that Jesus created everything in existence. You said, I believe that.

I do.

But let me just say this, and I mean this with gentleness and respect, honestly. Joseph's revelation doesn't allow you to agree with that. Because he said that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit offspring of Elohim and one of his wives.

So Jesus is not the creator of everything, according to Joseph. He's one God among many. He's Lucifer's brother. Do you see?

I do see what you're saying. And I actually still, like, I could go on for kind of a long time. This might not—I don't—I'm not here to argue or bash or anything.

Oh, no, no, I know.

But what we do believe, at least for me, back me up or correct me if I'm wrong because I've never always understood, but is that all of us have been eternal beings. Like Jesus Christ, even God per se.

So it doesn't mean that Jesus Christ didn't exist before. So Jesus Christ and God, they created everything, yes. But they are still the offspring of God, if that makes sense.

No.

I think there's some logical and biblical contradictions there. And of course, I mean that respectfully. But just in terms of—I'll give you another example. It might bring more clarity to what I'm saying.

In Colossians chapter 1, it says that Jesus, for by him Jesus were all things created, whether in heaven or on earth, visible or invisible, it says all things were created by Jesus. That includes Satan.

So you can't have Jesus as the creator of everything, including Satan, and be Satan's brother. That's a different Christ. And according to the Bible, if you have a false Christ, you have a Christ that can't save.

And that's my deep concern for my Mormon friends is not in a sense of wanting to rob you of your faith or to injure you in some way or out of hatred or animosity. It's that the Bible warns me that I could be following a false Christ.

And that I need to examine what I believe and test all things, hold fast to that which is true. And Jesus said, Thy word is truth. Test what I believe. Test what any prophet says by the scriptures. Because here's the thing.

Whatever our disagreements, we need to have Christ, the true Christ, for forgiveness and salvation. And if I'm following a false one, I need to abandon it. I need to swallow my pride and abandon it and come to the true Christ, right?

And receive forgiveness and salvation. And I hope the same thing for you guys, right? Because no matter what, we're on the tail end of this. Jesus has already come. The scriptures have already been laid down.

And now what we have to work with is God's revelation and to test, right? So for example, and I think this would be an interesting test. If you put a Latter-day Saint next to a Christian, next to, say, a Roman Catholic, next to a Muslim, a Jehovah's Witness, a Rosicrucian, a Christian Scientist, and an Atheist.

And you said, Elder, tell everyone your experiences with God. You'd share all your experiences and this passionate experience and genuine. And then the Muslim shares his experience. And he says, the Mormons are all wrong.

Jesus didn't die for sins. He didn't rise from the dead. This is the true experience. I've had these experiences. And the Jehovah's Witness goes. And now we're going to align and we're all having these amazing experiences, all believing in contradictory gods and gospels, contradicting what each other say about Jesus, but all having genuine experiences, right?

We can't know what is true based on our experiences. We can know what's true based upon the word of the living God. And what God said in His word long before Joseph Smith came along was that there is only one God, none before, none after, that you will never become a god one day, that Jesus has eternally existed as God, not created, not the brother of Lucifer.