Tim Keller and Direct Speaking (rerun)

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

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Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry.

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Mike Abendroth here with Pastor Steve Cooley. Steve, I haven't seen any turkeys running around outside in some time.

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No. It's kind of amazing. Maybe they just got tired of sliding across the ice.

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Well, when people's cars break down and they need to park in the church parking lot for a while, do we have some kind of tract, you know, repent and believe in Jesus or we'll put a boot on you?

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Boot your car. It's repent or, you know, within 72 hours or be towed away.

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Yeah, because it's, you know, be warm, be filled, we're going to, but at least we give the people the phone number of the parking lot where their car is impounded.

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Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I can almost remember, because I did impound a few vehicles during my day, the phone number for Crescenta Valley Towing Yard where they all got towed, so.

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And so, you say that with glee. Well, sometimes I was a little gleeful.

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I mean, there was one guy in particular where I towed his vehicle and I just,

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I couldn't have been any happier because he was not, he was not too godly in his responses to me.

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So, step by step, I was patient. You know, I said, sir, you know, you can't drive, you've got a license that's out of date.

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And he said, okay. So, he went back and he sat in his truck and I was just doing some paperwork and he was just waiting for me to leave, you know, and he'd been rude the whole time.

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And so, finally, I just said, I called for a tow truck and I said, sir, you're going to have to step out of the vehicle.

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He says, why is that? I said, because I'm towing it. And he says, you can't do that. I said, oh, yes, I can. And there it goes, you know.

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Steve, this is a sign, I think. This is a concurrence moment right here because there's the tow truck outside.

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It literally pulled up. Well, there is a special anointing on me right now. Can you kind of feel?

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Well, this particular tow truck, it says 24 -hour towing. If you drink and drive, we get the last call.

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Oh, see? All right. Steve, let's talk about direct speech today, especially in light of political correctness.

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If you get asked the question by someone, is homosexuality a sin? I don't want you to answer quite yet.

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These are rhetorical questions. How would you answer? That is to say, we have to parse our words carefully because we want to be biblical, but how do we parse our words so that we are politically correct, if at all?

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That's not rhetorical. That one's not rhetorical. So how do you talk about sins when the world seems like they don't want to talk about them that way?

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Well, I mean, I have no interest in debating the merits or demerits of homosexuality with an unbeliever, right?

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If they want me to agree with them, I can't do that. You know, so typically what

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I'll say is if you want me to agree that homosexuality will not keep someone out of heaven, I can't do that because the

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Bible says very clearly that homosexuals will not go to heaven. Steve, you're kind of a savant, maybe clairvoyant, maybe,

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I don't know, some kind of Kreskin kind of guy or something. People like to call me an idiot savant. Oh, I bet they do.

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I have a show for you on how to receive criticism. It was last week's. There's a

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Veritas Forum, or there was one, and Tim Keller was on that forum, and he was asked questions similar to this.

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So I thought we could use this Veritas Forum as kind of like a little foil for how we should respond and Keller, I think, parses things.

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Is this tinfoil? Well, I think it's the tin man. Okay. Yeah. And so there's the man that asked the questions to Tim was a guy, his last name was

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Eisenbach. And so when I say Eisenbach, that means he's asking the question in the

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Veritas Forum at Columbia University. And what I have in front of me is a transcript of Tim Keller being interviewed at that event.

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And so I'm going to ask you the questions. I'll pretend like I'm Eisenbach, Steve. Okay, and I'll pretend like I'm Keller?

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Yeah. Oh, fun. Except I don't want you to pretend like you're Keller. I just want you to respond, and then we'll read what

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Keller said and see if they match up. Okay. I was wanting to be, you know, pretend like I was Tim Keller.

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Yeah. But then I realized I probably have to shave my head and do some other things. Oh, I did see something funny the other day.

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They took a picture of John Piper and Tim Keller and extracted the facial features out just the inside, you know, the skull, the face, and they transposed them.

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Oh, really? It's kind of like a Star Trek deal or what's the one Freaky Friday? Oh, yeah. Kind of like that, except it wasn't the internal thing, it was the face, so you have the face of Piper on the head of Tim Keller.

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I don't know. Do people have a lot of time? Apparently. Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't occur to me.

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I wonder what would happen if I put John Piper's face on Tim Keller's head. I just don't think like that.

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Veritas Forum transcript, Eisenbach says to Tim Keller, what do so many of the churches have against homosexual and what's your church's approach to homosexuality?

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Is it a sin? Are they going to hell? Now, if you were on the Veritas Forum, what would you say, cameras, students?

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It's not necessarily, you know, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. What's your response? I'd say our church doesn't have anything against homosexuals.

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We want homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, drunks, thieves, all sorts of people to come and hear the gospel.

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We want them to come and be transformed by the renewing of their minds.

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In other words, when they hear the word of God, we trust that the Holy Spirit will convict them of their sin and their need to repent.

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Peter Keller. And I'm going to take out all his pauses or ums and uhs because I certainly have those,

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I say some of those. This is just so nobody accuses you of not reading it appropriately. That's correct.

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Because you know what? I have been accused of many things and it's in the transcript though, honestly.

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So let's talk about my church first, which will be easier, a little easier than trying to answer for all the other churches of the world.

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But I'll try. Audience laughter. I'm representing all the churches of the world, all right? You know,

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Eisenbach. But Christianity, I mean, you, yeah, I know, but let's start with mine, Eisenbach.

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You go to the Bible quite often and there are many evangelicals who would say it is listed as a sin in the

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Bible. And these people are going to hell. Keller, right.

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Now what you first, let's talk about my church again. Let's go back here. What would what

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I say? I think it's unavoidable. I think most Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox Christian over the years have said you read the

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Bible and the Bible has reservations. The Bible says homosexuality is not God's original design for sexuality.

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Okay? Now just stop there. What? What? It's not his original plan for sexuality?

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There we are. You have it. The Bible also says love your neighbor. The Bible, in fact, the Good Samaritan parable, which is how

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Jesus tells us to love our neighbor, you put a Jew and a Samaritan there. So what Jesus is trying to say is everybody is your neighbor.

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Gay people are your neighbors. People who are of other faiths are your neighbors. People of other races are your neighbors.

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And it's the job of a Christian to do what Jesus did on the cross, which was to give himself for people who are opposing him and people who were different, didn't believe in him even.

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That's not what he did. Okay. I know. I'm asking you for a response. Well, I know it. I'm telling you.

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You're asking - Sorry. Further elaboration. Well, and I'll just say this, that Jesus died for the sins of all who would ever believe.

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He went to the cross knowing that he was dying for those who would believe in him.

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He didn't die for people who would never believe in him. And I just think he's got a really mixed up idea about what homosexuality is and, you know, like it wasn't

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God's original design. No, it's worse than that. Well, soon he's going to talk about how it's not good for human flourishing.

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And why would we talk that way? Is there a way that we could somehow explain Christianity to unbelievers or to GLAD or LBGTQ folks that's not going to be offensive to them?

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In other words, if I was asked the question by Eisenbach at the Veritas Forum, I'm not going to come across in a mean way,

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I'm trying to be kind, but I am a messenger. I am a delivery boy. I believe 1

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Corinthians 1 is true, that the cross is offensive to worldly people and the world, and I also believe it's the only possible vehicle for salvation, and that's why

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I preach Jesus Christ and him crucified. Well, and homosexuality, let me be clear about this. It is not an alternative expression of human sexuality.

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It is an aberrational form of human. It is not just not what

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God intended. It is contra what God, it is the opposite of what

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God indebted. Pete So what I try to do when I'm asked a question, you know, there's a forum and a proper way, and maybe when

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MacArthur gets asked the question on Larry King, he talks about homosexuality, he didn't do this, but he could say homosexuality is not the unpardonable sin, but you asked me the question, and you asked me the question, is homosexuality a sin?

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Answer? Yes, here is God's holy law. He is holy, he is the creator, and he is the one who by his own sovereign decree tells us what is sin and what is not.

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We don't have any way to know unless God reveals himself to us, and we have that in the scripture.

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Yes, conscience would tell us some, but we have the word of God, and it tells us clearly in the

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Old Testament and in the New, homosexuality is a sin, it's a transgression, it goes against God's character and nature and law.

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Why can't we just say that? Pete I don't have any problem saying it, and I mean, even in, you know, just the generic category of sexual immorality, which

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I think we would have to say homosexuality definitely falls into that, right? It's not

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God's design for sexual expression, therefore it is sexually immoral.

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And in Revelation 21 in verse 8, "...but as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

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That doesn't sound like homosexuals can get into heaven. You know, if they're practicing homosexuals, they're unrepentant, non -redeemed homosexuals, they get the second death, they're going to hell.

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Steve, it's such a hot button, so we immediately start saying, well, you know, greed's a sin, pride's a sin, self -righteousness is a sin, not loving our neighbors is a sin, and I understand all that, and by the way, those are sins, and I'm thankful that God forgave me for those sins.

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But when asked the question in our climate today, is homosexuality a sin? We must say, yes it is, and then

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I think we add, here's the really good news. This is who Jesus is. This is what

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Jesus did on behalf of sinners, and this is how you can be cleansed, and we talk about 1

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Corinthians 6, you're washed and justified, and you used to be a certain way, you're not that way anymore.

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That's right. Such were some of you. You can be redeemed, renewed, restored, you know, you're just as Isaiah would say, you know, though your sins are like scarlet, they're just so obvious, they stand out.

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I mean, imagine scarlet against a pure white background. Though they're like scarlet, they can be white, you can be made white as snow.

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Pete Now before I give a little bit more of Keller's response, it is asked to Keller, are they going to hell, that is, homosexuals?

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And we're still, you know, I don't really know where he's going with this answer quite yet, because he's being so vague and beating around the bush.

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Steve, if somebody asked you on TV, Columbia University, Veritas Forum, are homosexuals going to hell?

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How would you answer and what's your answer? Pete Anyone who does not believe in the

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Lord Jesus Christ is going to hell. And translation, if you're an unrepentant homosexual, you know, because we can, it's not that your actions get you to heaven, but your actions show us what you actually believe.

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So, if you want to say, I'm a Christian, and then you live your life as a homosexual, well, we know something about your professional faith, which is, it's negated by your actions, by your lifestyle, by what you actually do.

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If you say, I'm a Christian, and you go out and burglarize people's houses, then guess what? You're not a

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Christian. If you say you're a Christian and you go around murdering people or lying about people or doing whatever sin the

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Bible says you, is a violation of God's law, and you habitually do those things, then you are negating your own profession by your actions.

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You could say whatever you want, but your actions display what you actually believe.

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Since the dawn of time, homosexuality has been considered by God as a sin.

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But recently, we live in such a society where homosexuality is not just tolerated, tolerate the people.

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It's to be celebrated. It must be applauded by the world or else, and, you know, the hate speech is coming.

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But if I don't tell people what God's standards are and how they've fallen short, that is,

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I don't tell them the law, you are to be holy as I am holy, right? First Peter chapter one.

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If I don't tell them that God created sex and all sex outside of marriage, that is a husband and a wife being married is sinful.

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And this shows me the depravity of your heart, that you're a fornicator. You live with your girlfriend.

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You live with your boyfriend. You're a man living with your male lover. This is showing me that you do need redemption.

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And so God has been very good to you to show you through preaching of the gospel, you need to have a savior because it's law, then it's gospel.

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And so I just want people to get to the point, especially Steve, when Eisenbach and others would ask the question, and sometimes they interrupt because it's kind of a dialogue.

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So, you know, Votie Bauckham, I think learned that lesson being on Fox News recently, when he wanted to give the gospel at the end.

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And unless you do the MacArthur front loaded, you're not getting it in. Yeah, because they'll just, you know, the timer's going off and they'll just shut you off.

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So, yeah. First question, gospel. Second question, gospel. Pete Keller continues his answer.

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I mean, Hindus, for example, don't believe in the Trinity. It's a different view than what the Bible says. Gay people have a different view of sexuality than generally what you see in the

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New Testament. Pete Wait, wait, wait. That's Keller saying that? Pete Yeah. Pete Well, of course they have a different view.

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I mean, that's the whole point. Listen, sinners have a different view of life than what you would see in the

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New Testament, right? Pete And that's why they need to think differently, which is called repentance, to change your mind. Pete But we don't affirm them in their, you know, defiance of God.

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We, as you were saying earlier, we confront them with scripture and we trust the

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Holy Spirit to regenerate and to judge them. Pete I'm supposed to love my neighbors,

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Keller says. So what I don't see is, at this point, I see some churches that are basically ignoring the places in the

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Bible that talk about homosexuality in order to love their gay neighbor. And I see other Christian churches talking very seriously what the

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Bible says about homosexuality, but in a very self -righteous way. So they are actually do single out gay people.

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I mean, there are a number of conservative churches that will love their Hindu neighbors and love their Muslim neighbors and not their gay neighbors.

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And I really don't think there's an excuse for that. So that's what now Eisenbach says. I mean,

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I, therefore, I have to take responsibility for being a member of the Christian Church for the opposition of homosexuality. Pete Do you single out homosexuality?

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I mean, you know, week after week, like the Malachi sermons on tithing, you know, do week after week on homosexuality?

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Pete Steve, I think that is completely false. If we're talking about a religion of the Westboro Baptist hate people who aren't

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Christians, then we can always find someone like that. But no one I know says,

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I love Hindus. I love Muslims. I hate gays. No one. And I don't either. Do you know what?

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I am to love my neighbors myself. And this is all a way to try to sit at a place and not just give the direct answer.

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Answer the question, please. I can imagine a judge saying to the person there in the docket, answer the question.

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Yeah, I mean, we do have one, you know, drum that we like to beat. We have one note that we like to hit and that is, repent, believe on the

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Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. We like to preach the gospel. You know, it's, you're a sinner.

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God is perfectly holy. Jesus Christ died for sinners. He lived a perfect life.

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He died in the place of sinners and was raised on the third day. We preach that over and over and over again because that's what saves.

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How do you come to faith? It's by preaching of the word. So Eisenbach asks another question, basically a second question, because I don't think he got any answer with the first question.

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He got a lot of dancing. Right. And so Eisenbach asked the second question. Are committed homosexuals, are committing homosexual acts sin?

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If you commit a homosexual act, is it a sin against God? Now, before you answer, Steve, here's

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Keller's answer. What do you mean by sin? The answer is yes.

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Now, he knows he has to give the answer, yes. But I think the political correctness started at the beginning.

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It's like he caught himself. And so I'm glad he says, yes, if I ask you the question, if you commit a homosexual act, is it a sin against God?

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What's the answer? Every sin is against God. Against the only have I sinned. Okay.

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But is homosexuality the act? It's let's say it's in a committed relationship. Let's say they're married in the state of Maine.

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Is it a sin? Yes. Okay. Is it a forgivable sin? Yes. Okay. I like that.

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Yes. Eisenbach. Yes. Keller. Now, see, here's the problem with that.

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You don't go to hell for being a homosexual. Eisenbach smartly says, but committing homosexual acts will get you to go to hell.

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Keller. No, wait a minute. Wait, wait. Wait, let me dance. Eisenbach.

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Well, you know, some people say, well, it's not the homosexuality or being gay. It's doing our being gay stuff.

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That's the problem. You know,

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I want to ask, but I don't want to ask. So I won't. Okay. Now here's something that Keller said that I thought was really clever.

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And I will give him that. He said, first of all, heterosexuality does not get you to heaven.

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Very true. I happen to know this. He said, so how in the world would homosexuality send you to hell? And listen, actually the

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Bible, listen, this is true. Jesus talks about greed 10 times more than he talks about adultery, for example.

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Well, Jesus didn't really talk about homosexuality all that much either. I know, but I I'm on the Veritas Forum and they're asking me about homosexuality and in a gentle way, in a kind way, but in a way that says, you know what?

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I'm a minister of the gospel and there's no good news without bad news. I get asked a question. Do you know what is homosexuality a sin?

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Yes, it is. Here's the great news. If you're a sinner and whether your sin manifests itself in homosexuality, greed or covetousness,

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Jesus is a greater Savior than you are a sinner. Wouldn't you like to be forgiven? Wouldn't you like to go to heaven when you die?

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Wouldn't you like to have your conscience cleaned, your spiritual bank account cleaned? Wouldn't you like to say no to sin?

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Yes. Well, and I mean, you know, you mentioned covetousness. You know, I mean, there are people who just can't live without this, that, or the other thing, you know?

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I mean, I don't care what it is. I don't care if it's a Lamborghini or baseball cards. Whatever, you know, your hangup is, can that be something that's more important to you than God?

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Yes. And is that wrong? Yes. And will it keep you out of heaven? Yes. Is it a sin? Yes. Homosexuality is a sin among other sins, but it is different.

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I mean, there are certain aspects of it that are different than other sins. First of all, it is a violation of your natural creation, you know?

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That's Romans 1, right? So it's sin, but it goes against nature. So it's like doubly bad.

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And secondly, I think there's a kind of addictive, I think once you've opened yourself up to it,

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I think it's a difficult one to extract yourself from. Steve, this is maybe the thing that I have the biggest problem with with Keller.

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He says, the Bible is much harder on greed and materialism. It's a horrible sin, terrible sin. Will greed send you to hell?

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No. What sends you to hell is self -righteousness, thinking that you can be your own

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Savior and Lord. Greed won't send you to hell? So there's a problem.

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Of course, self -righteousness is sinful. Of course, arrogance is sinful. Of course, Jesus whacked the self -righteous.

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Because he was dealing with them all the time. This turns up all the time with evangelism. Well, now you know about Jesus, so now you're going to be held accountable.

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No, you're going to be held more accountable. Because one sin will keep you out of heaven.

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And by the way, you've all got that one sin, and it's by God's sovereign decree. Adam's sin credited to your account.

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And of course, consequently, you sin in other ways now. But any sin, greed is a sin. You know, all sexual sins are sins.

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So it just, that's really, this is like the Kierkegaardian kind of thing that Keller does outside of this interview, where sin is making good things ultimate.

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And it's just, you know… Pete Well, and greed isn't, would not send you hell.

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I'm still stuck on that. I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, well. You know, if you never repent of greed, yes.

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Is greed a sin? Yes. So any of those things can… Pete Lastly, Keller says, if you're gay, you're going to hell for being gay.

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It's just not true. Absolutely not true. Adam I don't even understand that.

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Pete So, Eisenbach says, so then what, then how is homosexuality a sin? I'm not… Keller, well, homosexuality, sigh, greed is a sin.

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In other words, it doesn't help human flourishing. Pete Well, that's the definition of sin. Sin is, it doesn't help human flourishing.

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That's the sin of homosexuality or the sin of homosexuality is an abomination.

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It's a reversal of God's creation. You know, he designed Adam and Eve in a certain way and…

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Friends, we're out of time, but we would just want you to speak clearly and plainly. Address sin and then immediately make a beeline to the

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Savior, Jesus Christ. I think the world actually would appreciate that, that we wouldn't beat around the bush like this.

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Adam Gospel, gospel, gospel. Jesus Christ alone saves sinners. That's how you approach all these issues, every single sin.

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No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.