Babylonian Pattern - Part 1 — Winkie Pratney

The Triune Godhead and Distinct Divine Persons

The biblical idea that the Father is God and the Son is likewise God and the Holy Spirit is likewise God and that the Father is not the Son, you could do it like that, and the Son is not the Spirit and the Spirit's not the Father, they're not just other names and God stutters.

There are three distinct personalities in the Godhead. But we could say this, now the word Trinity doesn't appear in scripture, it's a theological term, not a biblical term, but the word Godhead does.

And if you go through scriptures, there's a whole stack of them, a nature and character of God, you put them together, the Father is clearly shown to be God, the Son is clearly shown to be God, not a God, but the God, and the Holy Spirit likewise.

God's Eternity and Uncreated Nature

Now, how that works, I don't know, we've had all kinds of cracks at it. We do know that God is eternal, he is uncreated, and he has, we'll just put that word, that's probably the best word to use to describe the otherness of God.

He has no beginning, no beginning, no end, he's unmade, uncreated. Everything else we see has a beginning, everything else we see has a start, but he didn't. So it's impossible therefore for the devil to be God, because he had a beginning, therefore he's finite, a being without a limit in either direction, and that's the word in French, l 'eternel, is the description of God.

It's a good word. Now, I don't really know how the actual, we're dealing with a multiple dimension being, okay, an infinite being, and you can't actually get behind this and explain what that is. We don't know what it is, but we know it's different from everything else.

Tri-Unity Rather Than Three Gods

But what we can say is this, the Bible does not teach that one plus one plus one equals one. That's terrible math, and even worse theology, but this is all right. What's this one? Nothing. You can't take one out without losing them all.

You can't say, I'll have the Father but not the Son. I'll have the Son but not the Spirit. And we call this, because this is the unity of, we call this tri-unity, not three separate gods, not one. And right at the very first, in Genesis 1 -1, we have a magnificent seven Hebrew words.

I know a little Hebrew, his name is Bob Weiner, started a ministry called Maranatha Ministries. I also know some Greek, because I went to watch my big fat Greek wedding a number of times, brought my Windex with me to clean the board.

But those seven Hebrew words in the beginning, it's God, see? In the beginning God, just starts like that. He, in the beginning, he's there already. And then the word God is an interesting word, because the word that is used there is a plural unity.

It's like saying, if I gave you a bunch, have we got a bunch of grapes there? Can you give me those for a second? This is called living illustration. You can actually eat them too. If I said, I want a bunch of grapes and I bought you this, you'd be somewhat disappointed.

Okay. This is a compound unity, a bunch. That's the word that's used for God. It's hidden in there, but it's there. He said, ikad, ikol, that's bunch of grapes. That's the word used for God, not the word for grape, but the a bunch, see that?

So we don't know what that is. And you might like to pass those around. This is part of the blessing of the last. That pattern, this pattern here is seen a simple, perhaps one of the simplest illustrations, not explanations, illustrations would be H2O.

We think water is very simple. It's actually not. It's probably one of the most incredibly complex, simple looking things there is in the universe. Without that, life, as we know, would not exist. Only a few compounds that can store high order data.

If you're going to have something, for instance, that stores a bunch of data, you need to be able to make a very large molecule. You can't store something on a small molecule. So we know silicon does that.

We make chips for computers and stuff like that. But actually, we could look at it like this. Water is H2O. And there's another one here. We could say steam, well this a bit, I better go through one other one in there.

We could say steam is also H2O and also ice is H2O. Now not the same. If you ever tried to dive into ice, it's really difficult. So these are distinct, but they are the same substance in essence. So that's the idea, the biblical idea of Trinity.

It's an illustration, but not an explanation. And whether we took any kind of concept we have today, like for instance, time. Time, we know that past is a measure of time. And then present is a measure of time.

And future is also a measure of time. We call those things time. So the unity of it is they're all time. But if I take one of these out, what happens to the equation? You can't, you know, like this is present, whoops, it just became past.

This is future, whoops, it's not. These are all. But if I take that out, then we lose everything. That's only illustration, but you could take almost anything. The family, which we're going to look at in detail in a minute, has three parts.

It has a father, a mother, and a child. That's sort of a minimum family. That basic family is one of the most attacked, threatened, embattled pictures in the whole of the Western world. And every single one of these is under attack.

Take one out, you lose the lot. Understand? I'm not talking about friendship, we're talking about a family. And you see legislatively today attacks are being made to remove one of these. And the fight to maintain this as a family is actually rooted in a biblical idea.

Marriage as a Biblical Picture of Unity

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall join with his wife, and they too shall be one flesh. So you've got the man who leaves his father and his mother, same with the wife, they form a new unit.

Leave is the legal, see that? Cleave is the, well you could say leave is like, you have to start again. You've got to leave behind whatever things you learned, you begin again. And the official joining of those to the cleave is usually solemnized by marriage, and in some places both solemnized by marriage and also by the state.

And then the one flesh, leave, cleave, and one flesh is a marriage. And the one flesh is sexual, physical, so then we have a marriage, it's also a trinity, and so on. Now keep that picture in mind when we start looking at these things.

Christian History and the Study Bible Project

But going back to this study bible, we were supposed to do this thing. So what I got, I brought one to show you and we'll pass it around. This original study bible was supposed to come out in 2001 for the new millennium.

It was a groundbreaking thing because its purpose was to have 2 ,000 years of Christian history in it, which we've never had a bible as far as I know. We've got bibles that have blocks of history, we've got American history bibles, we've got archaeological bibles that have ancient history, we've got some bibles that deal with particular part.

But to put the whole thing, it's a serious amount of stuff. Now, Jim, if you want to get me that big thing, the big thing that unfolds, the history chart, it's right on the end of the library there. I just want to show you what task this is visually so you can get an idea of just how insane it is to try and do a study bible on history, okay.

Yeah, it's crazy. I think, have you got it? Joel, got to call the troops. This is a test to see how much are you actually using this library. It's a big, huge thing. You found it. Okay, here it is. Jim, I need you, or somebody, I mean you can, or should, Bree, the beautiful Bree will now help us.

This is one man's, I'll say life work, okay. I don't even know how I'm going to unfold this thing. But he, let's start on, maybe go that end, Breeza. Maybe, yeah, hang on to there. You take this end and go as far as you can.

What you're looking at here is just a tiny fragment of history. Still going. Keep going that way. Pull it around. No, it's not big enough. It's not big enough. Keep going. Pull it all the way back. Keep coming.

You see how silly this is to try and put this into a book. Okay, this is an outline, all right. And we're only going up to, you can see the time there. No, no, no, no. Most of the major things have come in in the last hundred years, see.

Went on to quantum physics and nothing there. But you give me an idea. Isn't this crazy? How do you put God's, and here's the wild thing, God has dealt with each one of these places. Each one of them.

When we say eternal, we have no clue what that means. The same God who dealt with those Persians and the Babylonians and the Egyptians way back there is the same God who's dealing with our own versions of Babylon and Egypt in our day.

Therefore, when he talks about those things in the past, it's not dead stuff. It is the way he deals with a civilization then based on his nature and character is the same way he will deal with a similar civilization in our day.

So I love showing people this because it really is mind-blowing. And this is one guy's work you can imagine. So what we tried to do is something, a dumb version of this just for biblical times, you know, not all of those biblical times.

Elijah, Friendship, and Dependence on God

So I'm going to take you right back to very early times and show you something here that threatens this. But the point is that little thing, which is, I suppose, is I'm sitting on here. In six months time, the deadline was given, went something like this.

What could be done, the only way I could figure out a resolution, what could be done in say six months? Because they thought it'd take about three or four months to print and bind and stuff. So to get it out by that time, what could be done in six months?

I said, I don't know, but we will use networks of relationships and friendships. And the cool thing is, over the years, if you make friends, I always think of that lady when the prophet came, it was an embarrassing thing for the prophet who's called down the judgment of God on the whole nation and there's no water, to be sent by God after he's, every day God delivers him steak sandwiches and the brook is running.

Then God calls him so he doesn't fall in love with the brook and the birds and forget the God who bought them. The brook dries up, just like it dry up for you. You love this wonderful teacher and later on you think, oh shoot, I wasted a bit of time on that one.

You got to look through the brook and the birds to the one who brought the birds and the one who, always a danger of making idolatry of the creation and not really worshiping the creator. It's embarrassing for him, having had all that supernatural care and protection, to suddenly have to go hand in hand to a woman who's a widow with her child, who's starving to death and ask if she had anything she could give him to eat.

That's really embarrassing. It's like, who are you? Well I'm the prophet who bought the judgment down on the entire nation and the reason why you're starving is because of me, but do you have anything to eat?

You know, yes I was being taken care of but now the brook is dried up. And remember she said, I'm only a little bit of oil in this meal and then that's it, I'm dead. Just enough really for me. He said, well make me a meal.

Then remember what he told her, he said, go get these vessels together and go and borrow from your neighbours. What if she'd had no friends? What if she had no neighbours? What if the only thing that she had was just what she had in her house that was hers?

And the relationships were not there. I had a girl say to me, I just want to love God. I don't want to love people, they're horrible. I said, nice try, but the commandment says, if you love me keep my commandments.

The commandment says you should love the Lord your God with all yourself and your neighbour as yourself. So if you don't have any neighbours you can't keep the commandment and that means you really don't love God at all.

God is nice, of course he's easy to love if you know him. But people are awful, so you're right. But the whole heart of it is you demonstrate that you really do love God by this. Jesus' great prayer in John 17, that the world will know that you love me and you sent me when they see the they have between each other.

Bottom line in this thing is that the kingdom of God is built on friendships, the kingdom of God is built on family ideas, and that everybody has a huge hunger in their life to be part of that. I never met anybody who said, I never want to be loved, you know, everybody wants to be loved one way or another.

Never met anyone who said, I hate all families and I just want to live on my own. At that time they do put you on your own. They call it a psychiatric facility where you can get to feed the birds on the calendar and live in a room with rubber wallpaper.

If you take that out to eternity it's called hell. Nobody in hell has any friendship, there's no friendships in hell at all. It is real isolation. You get to live just with yourself and that's it, nobody else.

Technology, Relationships, and Revival

So in all of this we see that this friendship is a tremendously important thing. I was able, though I didn't have vast amounts of material on hand apart from that library, to connect with friends who have seen revivals, who've been in revivals, who like me have seen God do things from the scratch.

So putting out the networks, I believe also God gives us technology. I don't think Facebook and YouTube and all of these were designed for the content of, you know, if you go up and look at what the average content on the satellite, there's a trillion messengers a day up there and that's the content of most of them.

Hey, what's up? That's it, you know, basically that's it. I don't think God has given all that technology for, hey, you want to catch a cup of coffee at Starbucks? You know, so twittering and Facebooking and stuff, they're marvellous social networks because kids have no families.

This is the best way they know to have an extended communication with people. I haven't got time to tweet and toot, well I have got time to toot, but tweet and all these things, but emails alone is enough.

I mean, and when a kid spends five pages of stuff, it's not just like a text thing, I think that's worth me spending hours to try and answer their questions and stuff. So anyway, this thing is not a product of Steve Hill or me or the one other general editor we have.

It's a lady who from the time she was eight years old has done inductive bible study. She's done on over 44 ,000 subjects and she did a study chain that nobody ever seen before, blew Steve's mind, my mind, blew Thomas Nelson's mind, a 300 ,000 word study on the word revive and it's incognito in scripture and many people think there's only about 30 something verses in the bible on revival and most of them in the old testament and if there is a revival in the new testament, it is probably of evil.

When you plug all of these in, you can scarcely find more than two or three pages in the bible where that word or an equivalent awake, awaken, you know, those restore, return, doesn't appear. So in here we have an entire study chain on revival that's never been done before in history, it's something else.

But this is not actually our work. We've made a shot of trying to collect over 2 ,000 years the body of Christ. If you look at church history, there's a simple way, pretty simple, it's almost oversimplified but it's close enough.

Three Witnesses in Church History

If you saw three great streams of church history, I think you'd find these, you'd find there is the, there is a scripture that says this, there are three that bear witness, remember this? Three, three that bear witness, the spirit, the water and the blood.

Now that library in there contains a cross-section of what God did with all kinds of different groups and ministries. But if I had three big filing cabinets to put blocks of ministries or things that God put back, if I asked a reformer or a Puritan, how do you know what God's will is?

What would they say? The word, the word, the water of the word, that if you want to find out what God's will is, it's in his book, read it. Objective, propositional scripture. If I asked an Anabaptist or George Fox or John Wesley, how do you know that you're really in God's will?

He'd probably answer, the spirit answers to the blood and tells me I'm born of God. That if there's nothing supernaturally changed in your life and you can't hear his voice, it's probably because you're not saved yet.

And he knew that having gone out as a missionary and finding to his embarrassment when a storm hit the boat, this little, I don't know how they even cross oceans in those boats, they're about as big as this, this kitchen, some of them, it's ridiculously small.

He ran into some crazy Moravians. Those Germans who started that Guinness Book of World Records 24 -7 prayer meeting for a hundred years. Why? Because they were all fragmented in their family and met together to form a community and found such division there, they needed a visitation of God to bring healing to them.

And out of that revival came those who took as their motto, to win for the lamb that was slain, the reward of his sufferings. Amazing, amazing group of people. They sent out actually two groups of Moravians.

One were to win the last, and these are people who actually had themselves chained into, sold into slavery and chained into, like Ben-Hur thing, into those rowing ships with slaves to win the slaves.

Or became lepers in order to win lepers. And they went out to the pagans. The other lot went out to win the church. So if we're looking at what revival is, revival actually is getting the church saved in a way, just like evangelism is getting the streets saved.

Revival is bringing something that used to be vived back again. But if I asked a Catholic, a Roman Catholic, for instance, how would you know what is right? What would they say? Ask the Pope. That's like the church.

You ask the church. Now I reckon this, we know the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin, but the scripture speaks about the life of the flesh is in the blood. This would be my take, that the blood here as a parallel in those three forms, church history, scripture, and the witness of the spirit, that would represent the life of Jesus in his church in the times when it was behaving like him.

So we call these mystics. We call these reformers. We call them popes. We all have nasty names for different people. But if we wanted to find out what was true, I think the best way to do is look at all three of these, not just one of them.

Biblical Criteria for Genuine Revival

So when I came to try and find who we're going to put in this thing, we've got 2 ,000 years, who are we going to put into this thing? These are my invisible criteria. I gave them. They're not on the thing.

They're just kind of hinted at. I wanted first, it is a book, a Bible on revival. So we wanted, what is a biblical picture of what revival is? What does the Bible actually say about revival? And the general editor that did the study chain has a wonderful summary.

She said, if we don't really know what God's talking about, and we use the word revival, and put in appropriate tests and boundaries and stuff so everything fits within what God has authorized, our danger will be an idolatry of revival, making it the goal, rather than intimate relationship with Christ.

Remember, revival isn't it. Otherwise, it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. You just keep chasing wherever the rainbow is. The real goal is bringing man and woman back into the family of God and to proper relationship with God.

If you were going to, for instance, tune two pianos together, the way you do not do it is take those two pianos and try to tune them to each other, because you may get two pianos out of tune. The proper way is to take some standard, a tuning fork, middle C or something, ding that, tune that piano to that, take that same tuning fork, the standard, and tune it to the second piano.

Even if those pianos never meet each other, they will play in tune. Given the same song, they will play in harmony. So the proper way then to bring the church together is not to try and tune us to each other.

That's an impossible task. But to all tune back to him. So the closer we come to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and his work in us... And by the way, another quick side for those of you younger Christians.

The Distinct Ministries of Father, Son, and Spirit

I'm keeping that one up there for a purpose. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit actually have different ministries. I'll just put it like this. Father, Son, and the Spirit. We could put it like this.

When we look at the work of the Father, things come from the Father, and they come through the Son, and they come by the Holy Spirit. Some people go, well, you know, I don't know who to pray to now. I used to know who to pray to.

Just pray to God. It'll work out. But actually, your prayer would go by the Spirit, through the Son, to the Father. And the answer would come from the Father, through the Son. He is called the Mediator.

So there are visual illustrations you could use. The Father would be like the heart, the unseen, invisible, and yet source of all of our life. The Son would be like the body. He's the visible embodiment of the invisible.

He does negotiate. He's the mediator between those things. So you shouldn't see the heart. If you do, you're pretty gone at that part. But the life of the thing, even within our own bodies, we have structures.

We have bones. We have flesh. We have blood. Those are the three trinities that the scripture talks of when it's describing us. But the best way I could illustrate who the Holy Spirit's work is like would be like the hand.

He's the one that enacts things. He carries things out. If I use the word bubble gum, it's a theological word, bubble gum. To say that word, this is what the word bubble gum looks like in my brain. It's in there.

In order to put it out into the world, I have to frame it. The thought has to be framed. And then it looks like this. It's still not a word. You must not only have the thought, the idea, the invisible, you must have the physical framing and then the breath behind it and all of those.

Now, if you take any one of those away, if you took the breath away, you'd go... If you take the frame away, you'd go... And if you take the thought away... They all have to be there at one deal. Yeah, it is.

Yeah. It's true. Yeah. And that's why I think creation reads it not on our language but what the actual intent and the frame of the thing is. Anyway, just as a little visual there, when people first get saved, they get all excited about the work of the Holy Spirit because he shows supernatural stuff.

He shows stuff that can't be explained by backgrounds, by culture, by education, by training, by, you know, what kind of DNA you have. He does stuff that is not explicable humanly. That's what conversion is, a miracle, straight miracle.

When you first get saved and you start seeing the work of the Holy Spirit to do stuff, it excites young Christians. They go, whoa, I saw God do all these things. And often, that's why people get saved often in meetings where there is some supernatural stuff going on.

It's not explicable by any bussing program or because the Singing Andrew sisters came to our revival on that. Then, after a while, I go, you know, we need to get some wisdom here because we're running around saying stupid things and we think it's God, but it really isn't.

So then they start thinking about the Son, like the mind. He's called the Word, remember? In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God. Then, I reckon your whole life doesn't start flowering until you start knowing more about the Father.

So we're always coming by through two. When a person is first a Christian, you'll see high things on this. Then they'll get more like, well, we need to be wise too. Seek wisdom, seek it. It's the name of a person.

Christ is his name. But this is where the boundaries of the soul go down and you begin to see the way God sees. He is a Father and it's quite wonderful. He's called the Father of all, especially those that believe, which doesn't mean that everybody's saved, only they don't know it.

He is the rightful Father of the human race. He is our real Father. When the prodigal son is coming back, he's not coming to somebody who took pity on a loser and just decided to adopt him. He's coming home to his real home, to his rightful Father.

Conversion as a Supernatural Work of the Spirit

So the whole heart of this is, in terms of looking at the whole sweep of revival, we take notice when this happens. We take notice when the Holy Spirit shows up. If nothing supernatural has ever happened in your life, you're not saved at all.

Understand? It doesn't mean that if you're an occult person, you automatically are. But if nothing happened that can't be normally explained by psychology or education or information, nothing has ever happened in your life that is miraculous, you probably need to get saved.

It's quite simple. And that doesn't mean you have to have all the gifts of the Spirit and everything. It just means that there's no miracle in your life. It hasn't happened. When Wesley watched those Germans, they all invited him to come up on board and they were going to have a little worship service on the deck.

There's this huge perfect storm almost, comes out of nowhere, freaks them out 40 ways from Friday. But they didn't care at all. They just calmly sang on. The mast broke of the ship, just broke. And Wesley's terrified.

They're all going to die and these idiots are just going, hallelujah. They're just singing away to that. And finally the storm abates. They're able to repair the, you know, the ship guys repair the mast and they go on sailing.

And Wesley said to them, were you not afraid? And they go, no brother, our hearts are hit with Christ and God. Is this not so with you? Now understand who this guy is, who John Wesley is. He is a guy that gets up four in the morning to do his devotions.

The top preacher of his day. His father was a preacher. He was chosen to be the guy who does the, I don't know what you'd call it, the baccalaureate address every year for the kids who are graduating from Bible school.

The best there is in his, in his thing. And he, and he says, were not your woman and children afraid? Our woman and children are not afraid to die. And this is what he writes in his journal later. I went out to convert the heathen, but Oh, who will convert me?

And he says, I discovered the one thing I least suspected that I went out to convert others to God was myself never converted to God. And it was that John Wesley that changed England. The previous one would have just his first Bible study.

One guy went mad. So that's probably what'll happen if you don't get saved. So keep this in mind. Then we've got a wonderful, at the heart of the universe, and Francis Schaeffer used to talk of this, the heart of the universe, the equation is not this time plus chance plus matter equals the universe.

Okay. And we'll put mankind in there. Just put time, Schaeffer pointed out as impersonal unless you believe in father time. Okay. Chance is surely impersonal by definition. And matter is impersonal unless you believe in the personality of a hydrogen atom.

And I had a guy write to me in LA about 40 years ago with a three-page discussion on the personality of a hydrogen atom. At least he was thinking. Okay. You can't have three impersonals adding up to a personal.

Personality, Creation, and the Existence of God

So you can get a structured universe, hopefully, by chance, from that. Another way of putting this would be like this. Time plus frog plus princess kiss equals handsome prince. This is called fairy story.

But if you do it like this, time, a lot of time plus frog plus something here, handsome prince, it's called science. So our base is this, that even if we didn't have the amazing discoveries that we've found, it seemed like every week something new comes out simply underlies the amazingness of the creation, the amazingness of who we are, fearfully and wonderfully made.

Even if we had none of that, we have a bottom line apologetic. You cannot get personality out of impersonality. It doesn't happen. And most of the people who've pushed that thing to the limit have realized, even if you want to throw a guy out, you've still got to put somebody behind.

Martians, beings from other dimensions, you've got to get personality in there somewhere. We even call it mother nature. It's not nice to fool mother nature. Who made her a mother? So keep that in, keep that in mind.

We're actually dealing then with a universe that shows we, the universe inside us is, we mean something. Love means something. Friendship means something. Family means something. And you can deny these, but you can't take them out of the equation.

The Moral Meaning of Love, Friendship, and Family

One of the guys whose big thing was the time plus chance plus matter thing, he actually brought his daughter up in a glass bubble to examine, make sure that all the influences, she's quite normal. She's only had like three divorces so far, which is about up to par.

He, his whole deal was we are just chemicals reacting to our environment. So he bought, introduced the chemicals, you know, the things he wanted influencing to, to check out his equation. And I read this mother and a daughter, a little girl got on an elevator with him and the university he was teaching him.

And here was the professor and he looked at the mother and he looked at the child and he said, and what is the subject's name? Steve Taylor, who did, writes some great poetry for Rolling Stone magazine, was a Christian.

Put it in a little thing, went something like this. My love, she said to me, when you get down to it, we're nothing more than a machine. So I chained her to my bedroom wall for future use. And she cried.

You can't get away with the personal, you can't take it out of the equation. And the marvelous thing is built right into the heart of the first revelation of what God is, is that it's more than a, just a unity as a family.

The Babylonian Pattern and Postmodern Truth

So take a break and we're going to come back and for the next little bit, I just want to take you even further back than, not than Genesis, we can't go there, but from that history chart back further from Moses' day.

And I want to show you right at the very dawn of early history and how this attack is right in our face today. Okay. We'll call it the Babylonian pattern. So take a break and we will, yes, yeah, she's coming.

But Osginnis had a wonderful distinction that he made between these two things. And it's, remember we were talking about the weight of stuff in the Bible, the weight, the weight of ministry to, it's almost post postmodern now, but postmodern people, postmodern kids.

In the old days, I'll use these two words. One is called verifiability and the other one is believability. This one has to do with the truth content. This is where apologetics and other stuff comes in.

Where scripture, if people have an acquaintance or believe that the Bible is an authentic record of things, verifiability is we're talking about, can we show that what we're talking about can be tested, objectively tested?

Is there a way of verifying what we are doing? So this really has to do with the truth content of what we're speaking of. It's Kerry writing on this. Truth content. Okay. But we live in a, now, we live in a postmodern culture where everybody's got their own truth.

Understand? Everybody's, every, what everybody says is true. And if that sounds insane, that's another name for postmodernism, insanity. Yeah, really. It's your truth and my truth and somehow they will all get together somehow.

So it's almost like the, the illustration people used to use with the elephant, you know, with the, with the blind man that grabbed the elephant. Breeza's embarrassed now looking at me, but this is my rendering of an elephant.

Okay. Three blind men were taken to a zoo and they got to pet various creatures and right at the end the, the zookeeper introduced them to the elephant. He said, this is an elephant. So one grabbed his leg, one grabbed his ear and one grabbed his tail.

When they got back and compared notes, speaking notes of course, they all agreed that the elephant was the coolest creature that they had ever, ever petted. And then one of them said, yeah, it was, it was sort of like thin and flat like a leaf.

Okay. And the one that got his foot said, no, you're joking. It was thick and huge. I could scarcely put my arms around the elephant. No, it was like a snake or something. It was small and wiggly. Hello, this is my gorgeous.

This is Faye. Yes, there is. There's pizza right over there and, and stuff. This is our lady. Go grab something now. So when they got, then they argued all night. You didn't get a, you got a snake or something.

You got something different. So the whole postmodern thing is nobody's, nobody can tell you what's true because nobody's big enough. So if you see, if you lose an eternal God, then nobody can tell you what's true.

It's your own truth. And the difference between that and, it's called epistemology. How do you know what is true? And the three baseball umpires are great illustrations. The old classic way of finding truth, old classic way of epistemology, finding out how to know what is real.