ABOLISHING ABORTION ft. Ben Zeisloft

Hey, everyone. Before we dive into today's discussion, I just wanted to give you a quick note about this episode. Unfortunately, part of the original recording was lost, so what you're going to notice is that it jumps right into where I asked Ben to formally introduce himself.

But don't let that throw you off. What follows after is really valuable in an eye-opening discussion. I had the privilege of sitting down with Ben Zeisloff to talk about the state of the pro-life movement and why, in surprising ways, it has actually become one of the biggest obstacles to truly ending abortion in America.

This is a conversation that digs deep into hard truths, but it's also an encouraging one because it challenges us to think differently, to hold fast to convictions, and to pursue real abolition rather than settling for half measures.

So stick with it. I think you'll find a lot of clarity and challenge here. And with that being said, let's jump right into the episode with Ben. Welcome to Truology, where we study Christian theology, philosophy, and apologetics.

We do critiques on scholars, politics. We look into events in both classical and modern-day issues. We do interviews, debates, and much more. Our goal is providing a Christian resource to edify the Saints and to engage the community.

But most of all, we want to glorify the Lord through our hearts, minds, souls, and strength. So stay with us as we open up the Word of God and look into everything pertaining to life and godliness. My name is Belushi Prevalon, coming to you from the Boston area.

And right now, you are listening to Truology, the study of the truth as it is in.

Jesus.

Ben Zeisloft’s Background and Work in Abolition

Ben, would you just quickly introduce yourself to my audience and tell us a little bit about your life and background?

Absolutely. I'm Ben Zeisloft. I am the Communications Director for the Foundation to Abolish Abortions. We propose and advance a lot of the abolition bills that are put in across the country. We're in 15 states currently and counseling, hopefully, for this year.

So I was born and raised in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh area, and live out here in Philadelphia right now. So in terms of background, I grew up attending church, evangelical, and then I think was converted in college.

And that's around the same time I got convicted on the abortion issue because a lot of the same students who led me to the Lord and just by their example of following him as a young college student, you know, they were also involved in the abortion ministry.

So that led me into that same path. And the rest is history. I've been writing for the past few years for a variety of conservative news outlets, the Daily Wire, most recently the Republic Sentinel, other outlets like the Spectator, Western Journal, and more recently stepping into this full-time role at Foundation to Abolish Abortion.

Wow, very interesting background. So the Sentinel, is that yours or is that another company that you work for?

Yeah, so two other guys co-founded it, two other Reformed Christian guys, Nathan Barnes, Zach Lautenschlager, and they brought me on as the inaugural editor.

All right, fantastic. Wow. And thank you for that. Very important work in that field, especially politically and publicly. I know it can be quite taxing, but I appreciate you in that field for us and especially explicitly Christian movement.

So thank you for that. Ben, I'd like to, you know, begin this podcast in regards to just seeing, you know, getting to know what the Christian posture ought to be and what their vision ought to be in regards to abortion.

So first question I have for you here is, you know, for the Christian, you know, what should our posture towards abortion actually be, you know, biblically, not just emotionally, but theologically? How do we hold together both the gospel hope and the demand for justice?

The Christian Posture Toward Abortion as Child Sacrifice and Injustice

Right, I'm thinking of Ephesians 5 .1 where it says be imitators of God as beloved children. So we ought to have his heart toward abortion and look to his word and see how he treats it and we should treat it the same way.

So if you look toward abortion, which the Bible calls child sacrifice, right? The only difference is for us, it happens to be inside the womb in our current culture. God hates it. God hates the hands that shed innocent blood.

He is firmly against, staunchly against child sacrifice. If you think of passages like Leviticus 20, you know, God vows to actually personally oppose, you know, those who are murdering their own children and not only that, but also those who are turning a blind eye to it.

So you see this intense zeal for justice that God has, especially when it concerns the fatherless. You see that referring also throughout Scripture, throughout the prophets, you know, the fatherless and the widows, you know, God is the protector of the fatherless and the widows, which is sort of the play on which the title of my book is based.

So in terms of the gospel hope and demand for justice, though, there's no contradiction between those two things. I think a lot of times, you know, we tend toward pietism in our modern Christian age and we say there's this contradiction between, you know, pursuing justice and writing into the law that you can't actually commit murder and just saying there's hope for murderers, God forgives murderers, but really there is no contradiction because we see, you know, the same God who has those harsh words for child sacrifice also has harsh penalties for it and yet He, throughout the Scriptures, He forgives murderers.

He forgives those who killed their own children as also. So in imitating God, we have to hold both, not in tension, but actually in harmony because they just both flow from His character and nature.

Very interesting. Would you say that, you know, how do you think abortion should ultimately be penalized based on what you just said? Because some people, you know, do try to be, they're trying to try to be a little more compassionate, sometimes a little more compassionate than God.

They say, you know, we have to have warm hearts and forgive everybody no matter what they've done. What should be the consequences of abortion? Just want to kind of piggyback on that, what you just said there.

Absolutely. So abortion is murder. So it should be treated like murder in our lives, too. So our bills at the Foundation to Abolish Abortion, they're equal protection bills because they just say, take the existing homicide, assaults, wrongful death laws, and apply them to babies in the womb in addition to those who are outside the womb.

So treating both as image bearers of God, both classes of people, regardless of how old they are, how developed they are. And that's because we're trying to align that with what God has actually said about this issue.

So that could look like the death penalty in certain states. It could look like a long time in prison. Even scripture acknowledges degrees of guilt. You see different degrees of guilt in case law in the Old Testament concerning, you know, the extent to which somebody was actually guilty for the crime they committed.

So it's not a cut and dry answer, but I would say treat it like murder under the existing laws. Our laws aren't perfect, but they do at least thankfully recognize for now that that murder is murder and should be penalized harshly.

And I think that abortion is no exception to that.

Yeah, no doubt. It should not be an exception. How do you feel about people who typically say, you know, women are the victims of abortion? You think that flies?

No, of course not. So they're assuming that, you know, the tens of millions of women who have willfully chosen to take the life of their preborn babies over the past several decades in the United States were all coerced into it or all pressured heavily into it.

And that's not true at all. I mean, I've I've served for the past six or seven years outside of an abortion mill in Philadelphia, and, you know, I've encountered thousands of women who have gone in to kill their children.

And, you know, I've met a couple of victims over the years, but the vast majority know exactly what they're doing. Nobody's compelling them to go inside. You know, a lot of them are, you know, boasting about it and, you know, acting flippant about what they're about to do.

You know, countless times they've confessed, yeah, this is this is murder, but it's my right to do so. So just plain experience on this issue is enough to refute it for me. But just common sense. Women are intelligent.

They're capable. They have agency. They have moral agency. They're made in God's image. Our laws consider them, you know, just as equal to men on every other issue. If they get a parking ticket, they're going to pay the same as a man does.

But when it comes to the murder of a child, somehow it's different. That's actually really the only one class of crime where we say that women are categorical victims of anything relative to men. It makes no sense.

Yeah, I completely agree there. We should definitely deal with it justly. And something you said earlier as well as different degrees of punishment. Still, you know, the max punishment possible for such crime, whether you're complacent in the crime or someone who's assisting in the crime.

Yeah, the punishment might look different, but you're still getting what you truly deserve for committing such a vile act. So really appreciate you just being, you know, unhesitant to actually say that because, you know, we don't find that too common in the evangelical world.

So I appreciate that. In regards to, you know, the you know, what I would see as someone who holds to post-millennial vision of Christ's rule in the earth. My next question for you is this, you know, from a reform perspective, why is this issue more than just political?

How does the Lordship of Christ over the nations compel us towards abolition rather than compromise?

Absolutely.

As you just said, you know, Christ is ruling and reigning. So with his ascension, with his resurrection, he was enthroned in heaven. And, you know, the scriptures call him the ruler of the kings of the earth and king of kings and lord of lords.

And those aren't just empty titles. They actually mean something. We see in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 that God actually expects the rulers of the earth to submit themselves to Christ, to his law. Psalm 2 is the perennial passage for that.

Right. Kiss the sun, lest you be angry and you perish in the way. So because we believe that as Christians, because it's just objectively true in our world that God has done 2000 years ago, we take that message to our civil magistrates.

We tell them to repent, to to obey Christ, to kiss the sun. And on the issue of child sacrifice, it looks like treating it like murder, conforming our laws concerning the murder of preborn babies to what God says it is, which is indeed murder.

So it's not actually complicated at all. Just, you know, really, it's the moral courage that we've lacked for so long in the evangelical world that we need to to win back. The Bible is crystal clear on this.

You know, Christian history is so clear on this. And the reason we're not clear on it is because, you know, we've adopted this this liberalized mindset in our culture, this very soft, effeminate sort of way of approaching the world instead of, you know, claiming the dominion of Christ and actually pressing his crown rights in all domains of life.

Yeah, absolutely. Agree with all of that. Yes. Something that you said is, you know, you know, Christ ruling is not just some like ethereal, vague thing out there far in the heavens, disconnected from this present reality.

But it it should it's real. Christ is really ruling both in heaven and in earth. There's so much there's so many passages that say that. And if we would just have the moral grit to be able to apply that to the political sphere, I do.

I truly think Christians can have a stronger impact in the world. And I appreciate you sharing that that zeal. And, you know, I hope you just keep going with that in regards to, you know, our scriptural standard, not just looking at the metaphysical reality of Christ's ruling, but the scriptural commands.

My next question for you, Ben, if you share this with me and entertain us a little bit is, you know, in Proverbs 24, 11 tells us to rescue those that are being led to the slaughter. How should that command shape the actions of both the church and individual believers?

Proverbs 24:11 and the Church’s Duty to Rescue the Preborn

Right.

That's a, that's a wonderful passage. And the broader context of it is, is also very clear on what God means with this, where he says it starts out in verse 10, I believe with, if you faint in the day of adversity, your, your strength is small.

So sort of like we're saying, you know, do we have moral grit? I like the way that you said that moral grits to actually go and do something about this. Um, and then in verse 12, I think after he says, you know, rescue those being led away to the slaughter, hold back those being taken away to death.

Uh, it says, uh, does, does not he who washes over your soul? No, it does not repay man according to his work. So it's almost this promise from God that he's, he's watching us as, as Christians, um, as, as people were expected to actually obey that command.

He doesn't just reserve that to the church or to the, um, you know, to, to certain, uh, a certain subset of, of the people of God, he expects that generally of all of us, and it's going to look different for all, from all of us.

Not everybody's going to stand on the sidewalk or run for political office or, or something like that. But in a land with child sacrifice, like you said earlier, that should be the preeminent issue for American Christians.

And I think so many of us try to avoid it, right? We, we cut a check once a year to the crisis pregnancy center. Um, we go to a sanctity of life Sunday service. Um, something that's, that's good to do in and of itself, but not nearly sufficient to meaningfully bring an end to child sacrifice in America.

Yeah, absolutely spot on. And something that I want to communicate to the audience is that, you know, um, verses like this is just God's moral probing. Um, and places like, uh, Isaiah, uh, chapter one, I believe, uh, God is not, you know, he, he, he doesn't take any pleasure in the, in the feast, in the religious festivities that the people are, are, you know, celebrating because why, because they're, they're out there committing unrighteous, vile acts.

They're, uh, they're, they're allowing the fatherless and the widows to be oppressed and he probes them to uphold righteousness. And I believe that applies even here with Proverbs 24, 11, and the surrounding verses that you just mentioned that God is probing us to do righteous, right?

Righteousness and fill the world with righteousness and, um, stand up against unrighteousness and wicked acts. Um, those that are being led to the slaughter, um, you know, we, we are the watchmen, we ought to stand between the gap and, and, and repel evil with the truth.

And sometimes it just doesn't seem like the evangelical world has that punch to.

It.

Um, so I appreciate that. Um, I'd like to just quickly make a transition to just discussing your, uh, recent book, which, uh, you know, the other day I was just scrolling through X and I'm like, Oh, well, Ben Zeisloff has a new book out.

This is, this is pretty cool. Is this, this is your first book?

It is. Yes. Yeah, it is.

Fantastic. What was the, how long did it take to finish it?

Yeah, I wrote it through most of 2024. Um, so started around February of last year and then really locked in and finished it up there in July, August of last year. So that's sort of my summer project.

Um, but it took a lot of work, you know, doing a lot of research and trying to compile all this evidence of pro-life leaders, opposing abolition bills, opposing evil protection. Um, and it was, it was out there.

I knew where to get it, right. Cause I've been reporting on this for four or five years now. Uh, but I need to put it all into one place and actually tell the story of how it's happened and making compelling for people to see, you know, here's the evidence, you know, make up your own mind and we're not making this up and we're bringing up this problem of these pro-life groups being anti the end of abortion.

Um, so that's, that's sort of what the process looked like.

The Book *Forsakers of the Fatherless* and the Pro-Life Establishment’s Treachery

All right.

Yeah.

You know, in, in your title alone, you make a pretty strong accusation, you know, that the pro-life establishment has committed a kind of treachery against the very children they claim to defend. Um, could you just, uh, explain to us, you know, what led to this specific title for.

You? Yeah.

So as I alluded to earlier, uh, Psalm 68, five says that God is the father to the fatherless and protector of widows. In his holy habitation. So, uh, God reveals himself as the one who stands in the gap for fatherless.

Children.

Every single child murdered by abortion at some level is more likely than not fatherless. So either the dad, you know, conceived him or her at a one night stand, or, you know, is paying for the abortion.

Or as we often see, uh, down at our abortion mill, uh, we see the fathers just drive up and drop her off and drive away as fast as they possibly can before we get a chance to talk to them. Um, so often we're, we're seeing passivity, uh, cowardice, things like that from males involved in abortion.

But, uh, God is the exact, the exact opposite of that. He's the one who's actively involved, uh, standing in the gap, being a watchman, like you said, uh, putting himself in between the fatherless and those who wish them harm.

And as American Christians, we've, we've thought for a long time, that's what the pro-life establishment was doing. These pro-life groups that are in all of our states at the national level too, that they were invested in the same exact mission of, of protecting the fatherless child in our culture.

Uh, but they're forsakers of the fatherless because they've done the opposite in many cases. And as a subtitle says, uh, they've been treacherous. There's a secret treachery of the pro-life establishment that needs to be revealed.

Um, so taking the hard earned, you know, money that, that Christians give them, you know, think of the pro-life grandma who's, who's self-sacrificially cutting part of her social security check to give to one of these pro-life groups, thinking they're doing the right thing.

And really they're turning around, they're using those resources to oppose the end.

Of abortion.

When Christians have come forward in a lot of these states that are covering my book, uh, with bills that just say, establish equal protection laws for people with unborn babies, it's been oftentimes the pro-life groups, the leading pro-life groups, the longtime pro-life lobbyists who have been enemy number one to those, uh, efforts, which is really disheartening, but it needs to be told, which is why I.

Wrote the book.

Wow.

You know, it is very eye opening. Um, I believe, um, you know, I've been a Christian for about seven years now and I first came across the treachery as you describe it of the pro-life movement through Apologia, um, studios with, uh, Jeff Durbin, you know, uh, and I remember watching an episode where he was like, yeah, you know, the, the greatest, you know, resistance that we face is not really the liberals.

It's really the Christian organizations.

Right.

And that was really, he's had it many times before, but I never really paid attention to what he was saying. Like, wait, the pro-life, you mean pro-choice, right? No, he's like the pro-life establishments.

They're the ones that resist the bill to actually establish justice for the pre-born. And that was just so eye opening to me. I, many figures, um, that we are, that we recognize like, like Mike Johnson, for example, the speaker of the house, he, he has, you know, vehemently stood up against abolitionist bills and like, dude, you're a professing Christian and you stand up against the justice for the pre-born because of a few, you know, compromises for, you know, women claiming to be victims.

And you, you know, the whole spiel and the argument you've been in that field for quite a long time. You know, uh, how they tangle, but it's, it's really, uh, shocking to say the least that, um, a lot of figures that we recognize, um, absolutely support this.

And even worse that even, like you said, grand grandmothers who have no idea what their money is going to are essentially funding, you know, resistance against justice for the pre-born. Um, you know, disgusting on many levels and, uh, really, really discouraging, but I'm glad to have, you know, people like you and many other abolitionists in the field who are, um, voicing this.

And I do believe it's catching on and gaining a lot of ground. People's eyes, uh, in the Christian community are certainly opening. Um, Ben next, uh, you know, uh, without really, you know, uh, giving up too much of your book away, can you walk us through a couple of, uh, uh, more concrete examples of the pro-life movement and what they've actually, you know, done to undermine the abolitionist effort?

You mentioned a little bit of it. Could you give us any other examples at all?

How Pro-Life Groups Undermine Abolitionist Bills

Yeah, absolutely.

So the pattern goes something like this. And in my book is based, each of the chapters is based around this thesis. You see God raising up Christians in certain states to take the lead on abolishing abortion.

Um, but that's not usually how they start out. They start out, they become converted. They get convicted on the abortion issue. Uh, like I did, like many, many others did, like it sounds you did. Um, and that leads them into maybe going to the abortion bills, maybe preaching the gospel publicly warning against abortion and they say, well, you know, I'm a, I'm a Christian.

I'm reading my Bible. I see that it's the lawmaker's job to go and end this. Uh, so that takes them into politics and to the state Capitol. Uh, they propose these bills and it's lo and behold, the pro-life groups that are opposing, um, just a biblical call for justice.

And, um, the way it looks is, you know, you'll, you'll see phone calls, maybe, uh, text messages sent behind the scenes, uh, trying to pressure these lawmakers away from supporting these bills. Uh, so Mike Johnson's a perfect example of that.

He was actually, he was quoting scripture while he was doing this, which is, which is rather incredible. Um, he, he quotes scripture publicly all the time and he did it in private as well, while he was killing an abolition bill, um, he told a pastor and the main bill sponsor in Louisiana, uh, you know, he was quoting from Ecclesiastes like, you know, there's a time and season for everything and using that.

Uh, cliche as, as, uh, as, um, the conclusion being, you know, you shouldn't try to make murder, uh, murder under the law, which is, which is ridiculous. Um, but you see that sort of thing a lot and then they come up publicly as well.

So in Louisiana, it looked like there are 70 plus pro-life establishing groups that signed onto a national letter saying any law that would penalize a woman for willfully having an abortion is something we would actually oppose.

Uh, so they're coming out and saying it publicly. And like you said, it's because the abolitionists are forcing the issue. We're saying, well, why, why wouldn't we just treat it like murder? What else are we supposed to do?

You know, this is what God calls it. And they have, they're having to come out and say, we disagree with God on this. We, we think that there's, you know, half the population in this case, women should have a blanket right to kill their own children.

And we're going to fight vehemently against anyone who says otherwise. So, um, it's Louisiana, it's other red States like Texas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Missouri. Uh, there's a couple of swing States in the book too.

There's Arizona, North Carolina. So this is not a one-off issue. It's, it's been dozens of bills at this point across the entire country over the course of over a decade, um, you know, multiple States of varying degrees of Republican control.

Uh, and it, like I said earlier, it needs to be exposed. Christians need to hear about it.

Uh, which state in the U S you think has been the most difficult in your experience to get abolitionist bills moving?

Sure. Yeah. I think a lot of those deep red States were, um, honestly, a lot of the Republicans are just asleep. You know, they think because we're Texas, we're South Carolina, you know, the problem is solved.

We have a super majority in our legislature. We have a Republican governor, you know, that means we've probably banned abortion rights. No, not at all. Um, we, we just did a press release a few weeks ago at foundation abolish abortion, showing that there have been a quarter there last year, I believe there are a quarter million abortions in red States that claim to have banned abortion and compare that to 180 ,000 in 2019.

So the year before COVID the year before a row was overturned. Um, that's a massive increase in abortion after all these trigger bans, Harvey bills went into place. Um, so something's not working. These pro-life regulations are not working and yet, you know, Christians in those States, lawmakers in those States are the most self-assured that they're actually doing something effective when it's often the opposite is true.

Thank you for sharing that with us. And, you know, I live in, you know, you'll never believe this, but, uh, the blue wall of Massachusetts, um, you could probably already guess how difficult it is to, I mean, if you're having a tough time in Texas, a deep red state, I mean over here, it, there's almost no abolitionist movement here.

And my little church seems like a little Island, you know, off in the corner, uh, and just doing what it can to profess Christ through the gospel on the streets and behind the pulpit. And speaking of pulpit, um, I do want to ask you, you also point your finger at, uh, the church, how have the, how has the pulpit and the church leaders actually participated in this, uh, what you mentioned in your book, uh, forsaking.

The Pulpit, Church Cowardice, and the Need to Preach the Whole Counsel of God

Absolutely.

So for the pastor, I don't think the pastor should be a full-time political activist for sure. I think that's often a ditch. We, we fall into as American Christians, but in any case, they're supposed to be preaching the whole council of God.

That's what Paul reminds the Ephesian elders in the book of Acts, you know, preach the whole council of God. Uh, he tells Timothy preach in season out of season. So regardless of the opposition we face, we're supposed to be as Christians holding fast to the truth, confessing it publicly, not being ashamed of it.

Like Jesus said, you know, whatever I tell you in secret, uh, save from the rooftops, that, that sort of mentality. And for a variety of reasons, uh, there's secret sensitivity, secret sensitivity, excuse me, uh, saying that you can't confront, uh, controversial issues or even talk about them.

Uh, so that would be like abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, uh, feminism, any, any of the sacred cows that are, uh, our, our culture holds and the church has now absorbed. And, um, with, with the specific issue of abortion, because so many people have gone through with it.

I was just reading today that one in four women in the United States, um, of reproductive age will have an abortion by the time they're 45 years old, which is just shocking. Um, and those women, uh, in many cases are sitting in church pews.

So pastors feel uncomfortable about, you know, talking about abortion because it may make people feel uneasy. And I would say, but that's even more of a reason to, because you need to preach the gospel and point toward Christ and the redemption he offers, uh, for the women and the men who have gone through with murdering their child.

Um, so it's a lot of cowardice behind the pulpit. Uh, you see in churches, like some of the ones I mentioned in the book where the pastor is, is vocal about this, you know, is, is taking the lead on this or at least, you know, propping up those in his church that are, um, you see a lot of movements, a lot of conviction, repentance, growth.

Um, and you know, God's definitely doing a work I'm seeing it across the country. Your pastor is being raised up and, you know, full, fully endorsing, you know, equal protection bills, you know, encouraging their people to endorse that position and fight for it.

Um, and so God's moving, but there's a lot of work to do for sure.

Yes, I do agree. There is a lot of work to do and, um, kind of bring back a little bit, what you said earlier, and when we were talking about the States is, you know, in, in deep red States, like Oklahoma, even, I mean, abortions have only gotten, uh, gone up even after row, um, even, you know, some of the, you know, natural law guys, I don't bash on them too many times, the incrementalist guys, uh, they tend to think, you know, just because, uh, you know, Trump has recently defunded plant parenthood.

Oh, now abortions are going to decrease. Well, no, after row, it didn't decrease. I mean, um, deep red States have legislations against some of that stuff and it has not decreased as a matter of fact, it's been, um, it's increased because of the abortion pill and many other, um, you know, avenues through getting abortion that people, uh, schemingly seek out and, um, yeah, it's, we're terribly sad to hear that pastors, uh, hesitate, um, maybe because of fear and, um, from their own, you know, church pew members that they can't stand up against abortion.

I mean, if we can't speak the truth from the pulpit, I mean, what do we have? I mean, we're, I mean, who needs liberals when you have pastors that won't speak the truth behind the pulpit? Um, we have it right there manifest before us.

Uh, and it's not a good direction to go. Um, Ben, I would like to ask you really quickly, you know, are you, are you working on any other projects at all other than, um, the book currently any big projects like that?

Current Projects: Expanding Abolition Work and New Debates

Yes.

We're working full time for foundations abolish abortion. That's a recent change. I was brought on full time in April. Um, so we're fighting tooth and nail to, you know, advance these, uh, bills across the country.

We're updating our model legislation for next year. Good to have, uh, we're going to expand the map next year and introduce bills and States where it's never been before, which is really exciting. Uh, we're also about to have a debate between, uh, Bradley Pierce, my boss, our president, uh, and Jeff Durbin, as you mentioned earlier, uh, versus Doug Wilson and, uh, Toby Sumter.

So, uh, two prominent smash mouth, uh, incrementalists. So, uh, that's up at the end of October, I believe. So that's, um, something we're trying to put together. That's, that's come about in the past few weeks, but super exciting.

Um, I'm starting to work on another book as well. It's going to be more on, um, addressing some of the cliches that we see in the American church about politics and things like that and, um, how Christians can be assertive in the political realm.

Uh, so that's, that's, I'm just kind of, uh, breaking ground on that, but that'll be in the works probably sometime next year, hopefully.

Great.

Um, definitely looking forward to it. And I, I think I am, uh, aware of that. Uh, Jeff Durbin, Toby Sumter in the, uh, abolition versus the smash mouse incrementalism debate. That's going to be, uh, quite the, quite the, quite the battle.

I, I, you already know who I have my money on, but, um, I'd like to ask you, uh, Ben to help us, uh, with a strategy going forward. You did, um, hint at some of this already, but, um, from a theonomic perspective, um, uh, from a theonomic standpoint, you know, what would faithful civil law on abortion look like?

And I'm really asking about like the practical, practical outlook of this, you know, how does it differ from the current wave of, uh, pro-life bills that we've recently experienced?

Theonomic Civil Law and the Difference Between Abolition and Regulation

Absolutely.

So pro-life bills tried to regulate abortion in our bills, try to abolish.

Abortion.

Uh, so regulating abortion looks like saying you can kill your child before a certain point, but not after it. Um, you know, so there's an example of a heartbeat bill in, uh, Texas and Greg Abbott actually came out and said that somebody raised the objection of what about a woman who conceives baby and rape?

And he says, well, she has six weeks to kill the baby. So there you go. Um, so the kind of, kind of saying the quiet part out loud there, other bills just try to add inconvenient layers to pursuing an abortion.

So, uh, maybe a proper burial law would fall into this category where, you know, a woman is told after you murder your child, you have to give it a proper burial quote unquote, um, which of course, if you can do that, why not just stop the murder in the, in the first place?

Um, the ultrasound laws, you know, a lot of people think that it's going to, you know, save babies and I'm sure some are safe for that process, but really it's another layer on top of, you know, as long as you do this, you can kill your baby afterward.