ABOLISHING ABORTION ft. Ben Zeisloft

TRUEOLOGY

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Hey, everyone. Before we dive into today's discussion, I just wanted to give you a quick note about this episode.

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Unfortunately, part of the original recording was lost, so what you're going to notice is that it jumps right into where I asked

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Ben to formally introduce himself. But don't let that throw you off. What follows after is really valuable in an eye -opening discussion.

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I had the privilege of sitting down with Ben Zeisloff to talk about the state of the pro -life movement and why, in surprising ways, it has actually become one of the biggest obstacles to truly ending abortion in America.

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This is a conversation that digs deep into hard truths, but it's also an encouraging one because it challenges us to think differently, to hold fast to convictions, and to pursue real abolition rather than settling for half measures.

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So stick with it. I think you'll find a lot of clarity and challenge here. And with that being said, let's jump right into the episode with Ben.

00:51

Welcome to Truology, where we study Christian theology, philosophy, and apologetics.

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We do critiques on scholars, politics. We look into events in both classical and modern -day issues.

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We do interviews, debates, and much more. Our goal is providing a Christian resource to edify the

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Saints and to engage the community. But most of all, we want to glorify the Lord through our hearts, minds, souls, and strength.

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So stay with us as we open up the Word of God and look into everything pertaining to life and godliness.

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My name is Belushi Prevalon, coming to you from the Boston area. And right now, you are listening to Truology, the study of the truth as it is in Jesus.

01:39

Ben, would you just quickly introduce yourself to my audience and tell us a little bit about your life and background?

01:47

Absolutely. I'm Ben Zeisloft. I am the Communications Director for the Foundation to Abolish Abortions. We propose and advance a lot of the abolition bills that are put in across the country.

01:57

We're in 15 states currently and counseling, hopefully, for this year. So I was born and raised in Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh area, and live out here in Philadelphia right now.

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So in terms of background, I grew up attending church, evangelical, and then I think was converted in college.

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And that's around the same time I got convicted on the abortion issue because a lot of the same students who led me to the

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Lord and just by their example of following him as a young college student, you know, they were also involved in the abortion ministry.

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So that led me into that same path. And the rest is history. I've been writing for the past few years for a variety of conservative news outlets, the

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Daily Wire, most recently the Republic Sentinel, other outlets like the Spectator, Western Journal, and more recently stepping into this full -time role at Foundation to Abolish Abortion.

02:40

Wow, very interesting background. So the Sentinel, is that yours or is that another company that you work for?

02:47

Yeah, so two other guys co -founded it, two other Reformed Christian guys, Nathan Barnes, Zach Lautenschlager, and they brought me on as the inaugural editor.

02:56

All right, fantastic. Wow, and thank you for that. Very important work in that field, especially politically and publicly.

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I know it can be quite taxing, but I appreciate you in that field for us and especially explicitly

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Christian movement. So thank you for that. Ben, I'd like to, you know, begin this podcast in regards to just seeing, you know, getting to know what the

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Christian posture ought to be and what their vision ought to be in regards to abortion.

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So first question I have for you here is, you know, for the Christian, you know, what should our posture towards abortion actually be, you know, biblically, not just emotionally, but theologically.

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How do we hold together both the gospel hope and the demand for justice? Right, I'm thinking of Ephesians 5 .1,

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where it says be imitators of God as beloved children. So we ought to have his heart toward abortion and look to his word and see how he treats it and we should treat it the same way.

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So if you look toward abortion, which the Bible calls child sacrifice, right? The only difference is for us, it happens to be inside the womb in our current culture.

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God hates it. God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. He is firmly against, staunchly against child sacrifice.

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If you think of passages like Leviticus 20, you know, God vows to actually personally oppose, you know, those who are murdering their own children and not only that, but also those who are turning a blind eye to it.

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So you see this intense zeal for justice that God has, especially when it concerns the fatherless.

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You see that referring also throughout Scripture, throughout the prophets, you know, the fatherless and the widows, you know,

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God is the protector of the fatherless and the widows, which is sort of the play on which the title of my book is based. So in terms of the gospel hope and demand for justice, though, there's no contradiction between those two things.

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I think a lot of times, you know, we tend toward pietism in our modern Christian age and we say there's this contradiction between, you know, pursuing justice and writing into the law that you can't actually commit murder and just saying there's hope for murderers.

04:53

God forgives murderers, but really there is no contradiction because we see, you know, the same God who has those harsh words for child sacrifice also has harsh penalties for it.

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And yet he, throughout the scriptures, he forgives murderers. He forgives those who killed their own children as also.

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So in imitating God, we have to hold both not intention, but actually in harmony because they just both flow from his character and nature.

05:17

Very interesting. Would you say that, you know, how do you think abortion should ultimately be penalized based on what you just said?

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Because some people, you know, do try to be, they're trying to try to be a little more compassionate, sometimes a little more compassionate than God.

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They say, you know, we have to have warm hearts and forgive everybody no matter what they've done. What should be the consequences of abortion?

05:36

Just want to kind of piggyback on that, what you just said there. Absolutely. So abortion is murder.

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So it should be treated like murder in our lives, too. So our bills at the Foundation to Abolish Abortion, they're equal protection bills because they just say take the existing homicide, assaults, wrongful death laws and apply them to babies in the womb in addition to those who are outside the womb.

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So treating both as image bearers of God, both classes of people, regardless of how old they are, how developed they are.

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And that's because we're trying to align that with what God has actually said about this issue. So that could look like the death penalty in certain states.

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It could look like a long time in prison. Even scripture acknowledges degrees of guilt. You see different degrees of guilt in case law in the

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Old Testament concerning, you know, the extent to which somebody was actually guilty for the crime they committed. So it's not a cut and dry answer, but I would say treat it like murder under the existing laws.

06:24

Our laws aren't perfect, but they do at least thankfully recognize for now that that murder is murder and should be penalized harshly.

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And I think that abortion is no exception to that. Yeah, no doubt it should not be an exception. How do you feel about people who typically say, you know, women are the victims of abortion?

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You think that flies? No, of course not. So they're assuming that, you know, the tens of millions of women who have willfully chosen to take the life of their pre -born babies over the past several decades in the

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United States were all coerced into it or all pressured heavily into it. And that's not true at all. I mean, I've served for the past six or seven years outside of an abortion mill in Philadelphia.

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And, you know, I've encountered thousands of women who have gone in to kill their children. And, you know, I've met a couple of victims over the years, but the vast majority know exactly what they're doing.

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Nobody's compelling them to go inside. You know, a lot of them are, you know, boasting about it and, you know, acting flippant about what they're about to do.

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You know, countless times they've confessed, yeah, this is murder, but it's my right to do so. So just plain experience on this issue is enough to refute it for me.

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But just common sense. Women are intelligent. They're capable. They have agency. They have moral agency. They're made in God's image.

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Our laws consider them, you know, just as equal to men on every other issue. If they get a parking ticket, they're going to pay the same as a man does.

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But when it comes to the murder of a child, somehow it's different. This is actually really the only one class of crime where we say that women are categorical victims of anything relative to men.

07:51

It makes no sense. Yeah, I completely agree there. We should definitely deal with it justly. And something you said earlier as well is different degrees of punishment.

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Still, you know, the max punishment possible for such crime, whether you're complacent in the crime or someone who's assisting in the crime.

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Yeah, the punishment might look different, but you're still getting what you truly deserve for committing such a vile act.

08:15

So really appreciate you just being, you know, unhesitant to actually say that because, you know, we don't find that too common in the evangelical world.

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So I appreciate that. In regards to, you know, the you know, what I would see as someone who holds to post -millennial vision of Christ's rule in the earth.

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My next question for you is this, you know, from a reform perspective, why is this issue more than just political?

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How does the Lordship of Christ over the nations compel us towards abolition rather than compromise?

08:47

Absolutely, as you just said, you know, Christ is ruling and reigning. So with his ascension, with his resurrection, he was enthroned in heaven.

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And, you know, the scriptures call him the ruler of the kings of the earth and king of kings and lord of lords. And those aren't just empty titles.

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They actually mean something. We see in Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2 that God actually expects the rulers of the earth to submit themselves to Christ, to his law.

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Psalm 2 is the perennial passage for that, right? Kiss the sun, lest you be angry and you perish in the way.

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So because we believe that as Christians, because it's just objectively true in our world that God has done 2 ,000 years ago, we take that message to our civil magistrates.

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We tell them to repent, to obey Christ, to kiss the sun. And on the issue of child sacrifice, it looks like treating it like murder, conforming our laws concerning the murder of preborn babies to what

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God says it is, which is indeed murder. So it's not actually complicated at all. Just, you know, really, it's the moral courage that we've lacked for so long in the evangelical world that we need to win back.

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The Bible is crystal clear on this. You know, Christian history is so clear on this. And the reason we're not clear on it is because, you know, we've adopted this liberalized mindset in our culture, this very soft, feminine sort of way of approaching the world instead of, you know, claiming the dominion of Christ and actually pressing his crown rights in all domains of life.

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Yeah, absolutely agree with all of that. Yes, something that you said is, you know, you know, Christ's ruling is not just some like ethereal, vague thing out there, far in the heavens, disconnected from this present reality.

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But it's real. Christ is really ruling both in heaven and in earth. There's so many passages that say that.

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And if we would just have the moral grit to be able to apply that to the political sphere, I truly think

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Christians can have a stronger impact in the world. And I appreciate you sharing that zeal.

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And, you know, I hope you just keep going with that. In regards to, you know, our scriptural standard, not just looking at the metaphysical reality of Christ's ruling, but the scriptural commands.

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My next question for you, Ben, if you share this with me and entertain us a little bit is, you know, in Proverbs 24, 11, it tells us to rescue those that are being led to the slaughter.

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How should that command shape the actions of both the church and individual believers? Right. That's a that's a wonderful passage.

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And the broader context of it is also very clear on what God means with this, where he says it starts out in verse 10,

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I believe, with if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small. Sort of like we're saying, you know, do we have moral grit?

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I like the way that you said that moral grit to actually go and do something about this. And then in verse 12, I think after he says, you know, rescue those being led away to the slaughter, hold back those being taken away to death.

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It says, does not he who washes over your soul know it? Does he not repay man according to his work? So it's almost this promise from God that he's he's watching us as Christians, as his people were expected to actually obey that command.

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He doesn't just reserve that to the church or to the, you know, to certain a certain subset of the people of God.

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He expects that generally of all of us. And it's going to look different from all of us. Not everybody's going to stand on the sidewalk or run for political office or or something like that.

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But in a land with child sacrifice, like you said earlier, that should be the preeminent issue for American Christians.

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And I think so many of us try to avoid it. Right. We cut a check once a year to the crisis center. We go to a sanctity of life

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Sunday service, something that's that's good to do in of itself, but not nearly sufficient to meaningfully bring an end to child sacrifice in America.

12:14

Yeah, absolutely spot on. And something that I want to communicate to the audience is that, you know, verses like this is just God's moral probing in places like Isaiah chapter one,

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I believe God is not, you know, he doesn't take any pleasure in the in the feast, in the religious festivities that the people are celebrating, because why?

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Because they're they're out there committing unrighteous, vile acts. They're they're they're allowing the fatherless and the widows to be oppressed.

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And he probes them to uphold righteousness. And I believe that applies even here with Proverbs 24, 11 and the surrounding verses that you just mentioned, that God is probing us to do righteous righteousness and fill the world with righteousness and stand up against unrighteousness and wicked acts.

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Those that are being led to the slaughter, you know, we are the watchmen. We ought to stand between the gap and and repel evil with the truth.

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And sometimes it just doesn't seem like the evangelical world has that punch to it. So I appreciate that.

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I'd like to just quickly make a transition to just discussing your recent book, which, you know, the other day

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I was just scrolling through X and I'm like, oh, well, Ben Zeisloff has a new book out. This is this is pretty cool.

13:36

Is this this your first book? It is. Yes. Yeah, it is. Fantastic. What was the how long did it take to finish it?

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Yeah, I wrote it through most of twenty twenty four. So started around February of last year. And then really locked in and finish it up there in July, August of last year.

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So that's sort of my summer project. But it took a lot of work, you know, doing a lot of research and trying to compile all this evidence of pro -life leaders opposing abolition bills, opposing protection.

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And it was it was out there. I knew where to get it. Right. Because I've been reporting on this for four or five years now. But I need to put it all into one place and actually tell the story of how it's happened and making compelling for people to see, you know, here's the evidence, you know, make up your own mind.

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And we're not making this up and we're bringing up this problem of these pro -life groups being anti the end of abortion.

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So that's that's sort of what the process looked like. All right. Yeah. You know, in in your title alone, you make a pretty strong accusation, you know, that the pro -life establishment has committed a kind of treachery against the very children they claim to defend.

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Could you just explain to us, you know, what led to this specific title for you?

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Yeah. So as I alluded to earlier, Psalm sixty eight five says that God is the father to the fatherless and protector of widows in his holy habitation.

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So God reveals himself as the one who stands in the gap for fatherless children. Every single child murdered by abortion at some level is more likely than not fatherless.

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So either the dad conceived him or her in a one night stand or, you know, is paying for the abortion. Or as we often see down at our abortion mill, we see the fathers just drive up and drop her off and drive away as fast as they possibly can before we get a chance to talk to them.

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So often we're seeing passivity, cowardice, things like that from males involved in abortion.

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But God is the exact opposite of that. He's the one who's actively involved, standing in the gap, being a watchman, like you said, putting himself in between the fatherless and those who wish them harm.

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And as American Christians, we've fought for a long time. That's the pro -life establishment was doing. These pro -life groups that are in all of our states at the national level, too, that they were invested in the same exact mission of protecting the fatherless child in our culture.

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But they're forsakers of the fatherless because they've done the opposite in many cases. And as the subtitle says, they've been treacherous.

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There's a secret treachery of the pro -life establishment that needs to be revealed. So taking the hard -earned money that Christians give them, you know, think of the pro -life grandma who's self -sacrificially cutting part of her

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Social Security check to give to one of these pro -life groups, thinking they're doing the right thing. And really they're turning around, they're using those resources to oppose the end of abortion.

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When Christians have come forward in a lot of these states that I cover in my book with bills that just say establish legal protection laws for people and babies, it's been oftentimes the pro -life groups, the leading pro -life groups, the longtime pro -life lobbyists who have been enemy number one to those efforts, which is really disheartening.

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But it needs to be told, which is why I wrote the book. Wow. You know, it is very eye opening. I believe, you know,

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I've been a Christian for about seven years now, and I first came across the treachery, as you describe it, of the pro -life movement through Apologia Studios with Jeff Durbin, you know, and I remember watching an episode where he was like, yeah, you know, the greatest, you know, resistance that we face is not really the liberals.

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It's really the Christian organizations. Right. That was really he said it many times before, but I never really paid attention to what he was saying.

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Like, wait, the pro -life? You mean pro -choice, right? No, he's like the pro -life establishments, they're the ones that resist the bill to actually establish justice for the pre -born.

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And that was just so eye opening to me. Many figures that we are that we recognize, like like Mike Johnson, for example, the

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Speaker of the House, he has, you know, vehemently stood up against abolitionist bills. And I'm like, dude, you're a professing

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Christian and you stand up against the justice for the pre -born because of a few, you know, compromises for, you know, women claiming to be victims.

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And, you know, the whole spiel in the argument, you've been in that field for quite a long time, you know how they tangle.

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But it's it's really shocking, to say the least, that a lot of figures that we recognize absolutely support this.

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And even worse, that even like you said, grandmothers who have no idea what their money is going to are essentially funding, you know, resistance against justice for the pre -born.

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You know, disgusting on many levels and really, really discouraging. But I'm glad to have, you know, people like you and many other abolitionists in the field who are voicing this.

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And I do believe it's catching on and gaining a lot of ground. People's eyes in the Christian community are certainly opening.

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Ben, next, you know, without really, you know, giving up too much of your book away, can you walk us through a couple of more concrete examples of the pro -life movement and what they've actually, you know, done to undermine the abolitionist effort?

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You mentioned a little bit of it. Could you give us any other examples at all? Yeah, absolutely. So the pattern goes something like this.

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And my book is based, each of the chapters is based around this thesis. You see God raising up Christians in certain states to take the lead on abolishing abortion.

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But that's not usually how they start out. They start out, they become converted, they get convicted on the abortion issue like I did, like many, many others did, like it sounds you did.

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And that leads them into maybe going to the abortion bills, maybe preaching the gospel publicly, warning against abortion.

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And they say, well, you know, I'm a Christian. I'm reading my Bible. I see that it's the lawmaker's job to go and end this.

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So that takes them into politics and to the state capitol. They propose these bills and it's lo and behold, the pro -life groups that are opposing just a biblical call for justice.

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And the way it looks is, you know, you'll see phone calls made, text messages sent behind the scenes trying to pressure these lawmakers away from supporting these bills.

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So Mike Johnson's a perfect example that he was actually he was quoting scripture while he was doing this, which is which is rather incredible.

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He quotes scripture publicly all the time and he did it in private as well while he was killing an abolition bill. He told a pastor and the main bill sponsor in Louisiana, you know, he was quoting from Ecclesiastes like, you know, there's a time and season for everything.

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And using that cliche as as as the conclusion being, you know, you shouldn't try to make murder murder under the law, which is which is ridiculous.

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But you see that sort of thing a lot. And then they come up publicly as well. So in Louisiana, it looked like there are 70 plus pro -life establishing groups that signed on to a national letter saying any law that would penalize a woman for willfully having an abortion is something we would actually oppose.

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So they're coming out and saying it publicly. And like you said, it's because the abolitionists are forcing the issue. We're saying, well, why why wouldn't we just treat it like murder?

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What else are we supposed to do? You know, this is what God calls it. And they're having to come out and say, we disagree with God on this.

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We we think that there's half the population, in this case, women should have a blanket right to kill their own children.

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And we're going to fight vehemently against anyone who says otherwise. So it's Louisiana. It's other red states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Missouri.

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There's a couple of swing states in the book, too. There's Arizona, North Carolina. So this is not a one off issue. It's been dozens of bills this point across the entire country over the course of over a decade, you know, multiple states of varying degrees of Republican control.

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And like I said earlier, it needs to be exposed. Christians need to hear about it. Which state in the

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U .S. do you think has been the most difficult in your experience to get abolitionist bills moving?

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Sure, yeah, I think a lot of those deep red states where honestly, a lot of the Republicans are just asleep, you know, they think because we're

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Texas, we're South Carolina, you know, the problem is solved. We have a supermajority in the legislature. We have a Republican governor.

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You know, that means we've probably banned abortion. Right. No, not at all. We just did a press release a few weeks ago at Foundation Abolish Abortion, showing that there have been a quarter.

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Last year, I believe there are a quarter million abortions in red states that claim to ban abortion and compare that to one hundred eighty thousand in twenty nineteen.

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So the year before covid, the year before Roe was overturned, that's a massive increase in abortion after all these trigger bans,

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Harvey bills went into place. So something's not working. These pro -life regulations are not working. And yet, you know,

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Christians in those states, lawmakers in those states are the most self -assured that they're actually doing something effective when it's often the opposite is true.

21:58

Thank you for sharing that with us. And, you know, I live in, you know, you'll never believe this, but the blue wall of Massachusetts, you could probably already guess how difficult it is to I mean, if you're having a tough time in Texas, a deep red state,

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I mean, over here, there's almost no abolitionist movement here. And my little church seems like a little island, you know, off in the corner and just doing what it can to profess

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Christ through the gospel on the streets and behind the pulpit. And speaking of pulpit, I do want to ask you, you also point your finger at the church.

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How have the how has the pulpit and the church leaders actually participated in this, what you mentioned in your book, forsaking?

22:44

Absolutely. So for the pastor, I don't think the pastor should be a full time political activist, for sure. I think that's often a ditch we fall into as American Christians.

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But in any case, they're supposed to be preaching the whole counsel of God. That's what Paul reminds the Ephesian elders in the book of Acts, you know, preach the whole counsel of God.

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He tells Timothy, preach in season, out of season. So regardless of the opposition we face, we're supposed to be as Christians holding fast to the truth, confessing it publicly, not being ashamed of it, like Jesus said, you know, whatever

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I tell you in secret, save from the rooftops, that sort of mentality. And for a variety of reasons, there's secret sensitivity, excuse me, saying that you can't confront controversial issues or even talk about them.

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So that would be like abortion, homosexuality, transgenderism, feminism, any of the sacred cows that our culture holds and the church has now absorbed.

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And with the specific issue of abortion, because so many people have gone through with it, I was just reading today that one in four women in the

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United States of reproductive age will have an abortion by the time they're 45 years old, which is just shocking.

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And those women, in many cases, are sitting in church pews. So pastors feel uncomfortable about talking about abortion because it may make people feel uneasy.

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And I would say, but that's even more of a reason, too, because you need to preach the gospel and point toward Christ and the redemption he offers for the women and the men who have gone through with murdering their child.

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So it's a lot of cowardice behind the pulpit. You see in churches like some of the ones I mentioned in the book where the pastor is vocal about this, you know, is taking the lead on this or at least, you know, propping up those in his church that are.

24:14

You see a lot of movements, a lot of conviction, repentance, growth. And, you know, God's definitely doing the work.

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I'm seeing across the country your pastors being raised up and, you know, fully endorsing, you know, equal protection bills, you know, encouraging their people to endorse a position and fight for it.

24:30

And so God's moving, but there's a lot of work to do for sure. Yes, I do agree. There is a lot of work to do and kind of bring back a little bit what you said earlier.

24:38

And when we were talking about the states is, you know, in deep red states like Oklahoma, even I mean, abortions have only gotten gone up even after Roe.

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Even, you know, some of the, you know, natural law guys, I don't bash on them too many times.

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The incrementalist guys, they tend to think, you know, just because, you know, Trump has recently defunded

25:00

Planned Parenthood, oh, now abortions are going to decrease. Well, no, after Roe, it didn't decrease.

25:06

I mean, deep red states have legislations against some of that stuff and it has not decreased. As a matter of fact, it's been it's increased because of the abortion pill and many other, you know, avenues through getting abortion that people schemingly seek out.

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And yeah, it's terribly sad to hear that pastors hesitate, maybe because of fear and from their own, you know, church pew members that they can't stand up against abortion.

25:37

I mean, if we can't speak the truth from the pulpit, I mean, what do we have? I mean, we're I mean, who needs liberals when you have pastors that won't speak the truth behind the pulpit?

25:46

We have it right there manifest before us and it's not a good direction to go. Ben, I would like to ask you really quickly, you know, are you are you working on any other projects at all other than the book currently?

25:58

Any big projects like that? Yes, we're working full time for a foundation to abolish abortion.

26:04

That's a recent change. I was brought on full time in April. So we're fighting tooth and nail to advance these bills across the country.

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We're updating our model legislation for next year. Going to have we're going to expand the map next year and introduce bills in states where it's never been before, which is really exciting.

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We're also about to have a debate between Bradley Pierce, my boss, our president and Jeff Durbin, as you mentioned earlier, versus Doug Wilson and Toby Sumter.

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So two prominent smash mouth incrementalists. So that's at the end of October, I believe.

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So that's something we're trying to put together that's come about in the past few weeks. But super exciting. I'm starting to work on another book as well.

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It's going to be more on addressing some of the cliches that we see in the American church about politics and things like that and how

26:49

Christians can be assertive in the political realm. So that's I'm just kind of breaking ground on that. But that'll be in the works probably sometime next year, hopefully.

26:59

Great, definitely looking forward to it, and I think I am aware of that. Jeff Durbin, Toby Sumter in the abolition versus the smash mouth incrementalism debate, that's going to be quite the quite the quite the battle.

27:14

I you already know who I have my money on, but I do. I'd like to ask you,

27:20

Ben, to help us with a strategy going forward. You did hint at some of this already, but from a theonomic perspective, from a theonomic standpoint, what would faithful civil law on abortion look like?

27:35

And I'm really asking about like the practical, practical outlook of this. You know, how does it differ from the current wave of pro -life bills that we've recently experienced?

27:45

Absolutely. So pro -life bills try to regulate abortion and our bills try to abolish abortion.

27:51

So regulating abortion looks like saying you can kill your child before a certain point, but not after it. You know, so there's an example of a heartbeat bill in Texas.

28:00

And Greg Abbott actually came out and said that somebody raised the objection of what about a woman who conceives baby and rape?

28:05

And he says, well, she has six weeks to kill the baby. So there you go. So kind of saying the quiet part out loud there.

28:12

Other bills just try to add inconvenient layers to pursuing an abortion. So maybe a proper burial law would fall into this category where a woman is told after you murder your child, you have to give it a proper burial, quote unquote, which, of course, if you can do that, why not just stop the murder in the first place?

28:28

The ultrasound laws, you know, a lot of people think that it's going to save babies. And I'm sure some are safe in that process.

28:34

But really, it's another layer on top of, you know, as long as you do this, you can kill your baby afterward. And like we said earlier, a lot of women know what they're doing.

28:42

They know it's a baby. They don't really care. They're just trying to, you know, move on with their life and they're going to go through with it no matter what, even if they see the baby on an ultrasound machine or not.

28:52

So a lot of these bills, they just fall short of what God says concerning justice. He repeatedly condemns partiality in laws throughout his word.

28:59

That's a central value of the law just expressed in the Pentateuch is, you know, impartiality, justice and only justice, he says.

29:08

And the prophets impress that upon Israel throughout their history. So our our bills, abolition bills, try to honor that.

29:15

We try to say, you know, here's what God says concerning justice. We're not supposed to regard faces. That's what the literal meaning of the word partiality is in Hebrew.

29:23

We're not supposed to look at one person who's born and one who's preborn and say we're going to favor the one who's born over against the one who's preborn.

29:29

Just like we wouldn't for the color of somebody's skin or their gender or how wealthy or how poor they are.

29:35

We don't treat people on that basis. We treat them as image bearers of God, no matter what other factors are at play.

29:41

And so the same exact realities need to be in play with abortion. We just say just because somebody is preborn, just because they're less developed, just because they haven't been born yet doesn't mean they shouldn't be protected by our laws, treated like image bearers of God, which

29:52

God says they are. And to quickly just follow up on that, just to help if you can maybe just expand and help us understand a little bit with abolition bills and being enacted.

30:05

We do believe that justice needs to be done immediately. But so what's that look like?

30:13

If you don't mind me asking, you know, is it, you know, abolition bill gets passed today and that very hour, you know, abortion is illegal.

30:21

Do we roll that out slowly and let everybody adjust? What do you think? Yeah, absolutely.

30:27

So. A lot of these pro -life bills, they would you'd assume that they actually decrease abortions and like we're kind of we're learning the hard way after road.

30:35

They're really not. They're probably saving some babies, but not nearly as many as everybody would expect them to.

30:41

It is because as long as you can ban one method of abortion, you can you can ban clinic abortions, but then you can just do pill abortions or telehealth abortions or travel out of state for abortions.

30:50

But in terms of abolition bills, you know, like you said, the philosophy is immediatism.

30:56

We try to immediately establish justice. So once the bill passes, it's going to depend, like every other bill on prosecutors, on law enforcement to actually treat it like murder and actually prosecute cases of people willfully murdering their babies.

31:09

And, you know, if we have that in the law, the idea is the law itself is deterrent as long as it's actually enforced to that conduct happening in the first place.

31:17

So abolitionists will often hear, you know, you just want to, you know, you want to criminalize women, you want to execute women and give them the electric chair.

31:24

And, you know, that's not true at all. We don't want to see anybody executed because we don't want them to commit a crime that merits execution in the first place.

31:31

So with that deterrent in place, that restraint of evil, we don't actually have to even cross that bridge, hopefully.

31:37

Yeah, appreciate you expanding on that. And, you know, personally, what do you think is the biggest defect in the opposition in the comparison between abolitionist bills and pro -life bills?

31:49

Do you think people are really I mean, theologically, you know, we understand that they're self -deceived, they're sinful, they hate

31:58

God, and they're doing everything that is against Christ. But what do you think is the biggest defect in the political realm for how they approach this?

32:08

Is it just like they just don't understand it? You know, you did hint at, you know, some people know it willfully, but like what is it really?

32:15

What's the biggest defect? Is it just inconsistency? You know, is it stupidity? You know, what do you think?

32:22

Yeah, the ultimate error is, you know, elevating pragmatism above all else, human pragmatism, human wisdom. So if you actually read a pro -life bill, you can tell that's based on what's on which is written, because you see those carve outs, you know, planted throughout the bill.

32:34

So, you know, even with Harvey bills, there's there's provisions saying, you know, here's a certain case where you can actually go ahead and have an abortion.

32:41

You know, here's your clause saying that a woman can't be prosecuted for it. Things like that. Those do not come from Scripture.

32:46

Those do not come from God's law at all. It comes from the mind of man. What we think is going to be right, what we think is going to be winsome to the populace.

32:54

But ultimately, we have to fear God rather than man. We have to obey him rather than man. And that applies most certainly when we're trying to end a practice he hates in the form of child sacrifice.

33:04

Politically, the reality, as I mentioned, is, you know, a lot of people assume these bills are super effective when really they're not. They just tell women to go through with abortions through other means instead of going to the local

33:13

Planned Parenthood. So a lot of these red states that have passed new laws after Roe, sure, they're clinic abortions are way down.

33:20

You know, the Planned Parenthood is shutting down. But it's just that all the other methods are increasing and people actually learning now that pill abortions and telehealth abortions are often more convenient and cheaper than going to Planned Parenthood.

33:31

So you see sort of the nexus between the theological air and the practical political air. And, you know, those things are not unrelated for a reason.

33:40

When we trust in God's providence over our pragmatism, good things come. He blesses those labors. But when we start to elevate our own reason, our own understanding about what

33:47

God has clearly revealed, we start to walk in the paths of death. And in this case, the death of tens of thousands of babies across the country.

33:57

Right. And let's let's talk about, you know, engaging the magistrate for a second, you know. All right,

34:02

Ben, you're a Christian, but but that's but that's your religion. Someone will say in our current system, how how do we bring the standard of God's law into the ears and consciences of civil leaders who may not share our worldview?

34:16

Absolutely. Well, we have the revealed word of God that says otherwise, it doesn't matter if a lawmaker is a professing Christian and is acting inconsistently, is a

34:23

Roman Catholic, is an atheist, is a Jew, is a Muslim, is a Hindu, whatever, you know, if they are in a seat of civil power, that means

34:31

God has ultimately put them there and they have to kiss the sun. And we can say that not but not on our own authority. What you know, what is our opinion worth?

34:37

But on the clear revelation of the Bible that God has said this is the case, that this is what he did in his son.

34:42

And not only saving sinners, not only redeeming sinners, but redeeming sinners, but really winning the world back to himself.

34:48

That's what the whole Great Commission is about, is putting the world back under the dominion of Jesus Christ. So when it comes to civil politics, it means preaching the gospel in that context, saying, you know, you personally, as a lawmaker, you have to kiss the sun.

35:00

You have to repent of your sins, believe the gospel, follow Christ in your own life, but then also apply that.

35:05

And when you are in your seat of civil power, when you're voting on legislation, when you're putting in bills, those bills have to kiss the sun as well.

35:14

So it's that simple, really. It's just staying on the crown rights of Christ. And we have no authority in of ourselves.

35:20

We as Christians, you know, we can speak with authority because God has given us that authority by his word.

35:25

So it's not innate to ourselves. It's because of who God is. And like I believe 2 Corinthians says, you know, he puts his treasure in jars of clay.

35:34

So the people in my book, for example, you know, one of them is like a former drug addict. One was like a degenerate major league baseball pitcher who came to Christ later in life.

35:45

You know, these are just normal people who commit grave sins and are saved by a wonderful savior, just like all of us are.

35:51

There's nothing special about us, but there is something immensely special about Christ and he's the one who we all have to obey.

35:59

Yes, I couldn't agree more. You know, when someone kind of pushes back and says, you know, that's just one religious perspective on abortion.

36:07

You know, what if the Hindus accept it? So shouldn't we allow them to speak to the magistrate and get their way?

36:13

I mean, if we let the Jesus people do it, why can't we let the Allah people do it?

36:18

Or the, you know, the Vishnu people do it. You know what I mean? What do you think about that?

36:24

Is it still are we still pressing towards the same thing or what's the shot? Yeah, absolutely. So earlier this year,

36:30

Bradley Pierce, our president at Foundations Abolish Abortion had a really great exchange with a lawmaker about this point.

36:36

She asked, should there be a religious exemption for those whose religion says you're allowed to have an abortion?

36:42

And Bradley said, should we have a religious exemption for the Aztecs who want to cut people's hearts out and throw them down the temple steps?

36:48

Right. And his point is that just because a false religion says you can do something evil doesn't mean that you get to do it.

36:54

Right. It's still, you know, in that particular case, we recognize viscerally that murdering born people is really bad and shouldn't be allowed.

37:01

But again, you know, pre -worn people and born people are the same in essence and value. So it's the same exact thing.

37:07

And it's the same principle, just because a false religion like Judaism, Talmudic Judaism, like Islam in certain cases, like certainly

37:14

Hinduism and other pagan religions, just because they have various allowances for abortion doesn't mean we have to respect that at all.

37:21

You know, this is God's world. This is the Christian God's world, the triune God's world. There is no other God except for him.

37:28

He's the one we're going to sin before at the end of our lives. So he's the one we have to obey in all realms of life.

37:34

Yes. Like I said, couldn't agree more. That is correct. You know, there is only one true God. Philosophically, we can defend that.

37:42

Biblically, we can. Just pure logic stands behind us. There's only one world that God made.

37:49

It's this one. It's the one where Jesus rules and his truth is the ultimate standard and applies to even false religions.

37:59

Well, we get to test them by the truth. And unlike many other religions, Christianity has more validity behind it and more power and has had the best influence in shaping culture, such as the

38:11

West, Western civilization itself. Ben, I'd like to ask you in regards to, you know,

38:17

I hold to biblical post -millennialism. You know, many Christians think that, you know, abolishing abortion is, you know, way out there.

38:25

You know, it's a dream. We can never really reach it. You know, why should we expect that in faith that abortion will one day actually be abolished in America?

38:34

Right, absolutely. Regardless of the outcome, you know, the duty is ours. The results belong to God.

38:40

It's not up to us whether abortion ends in two years or in 20 years or in 200 years. Our job is to rescue those being led away to death, hold back those stumbling to the slaughter, to preach to our civil magistrates like John the

38:52

Baptist did about their duties before God to establish justice. Those don't change whether or not the perceived results of our efforts are going to be different on a given day or a certain era of history.

39:02

I'm certainly seeing the ball move forward in my day to day work with Foundation Abolish Abortion. We have, like I said, the most bills we ever had in a certain year, the most bill sponsors.

39:12

So when I was at Daily Wire a couple of years ago, you know, I write about an abolition bill in a certain state and there'd be like one or two co -sponsors.

39:19

So it wouldn't really get anywhere either. Wouldn't get a committee hearing or just kind of die with nobody hearing about it. But now there's certain states where there's 20 plus bill sponsors in a given year and it gets the committee and the committee, you know, there's a real debate in some cases gets to the floor and gets a decent number of votes.

39:34

And so that would have been unheard of just five years ago. So we're seeing there's progress being made because there's more and more

39:40

Christians who are standing on the word of God and expecting nothing less than the abolition of abortion, equal protection.

39:45

And when we have that that firm moral witness, you know, the world moves to us instead of us, you know, so much of Christianity for the past, you know, 100, 200 years has just been moving along with the world, wherever the world goes, you know, the church is there, but on a five year delay.

39:59

I'm not seeing that with the with the abolition issue, those Christians who are actually involved in abolition are leading the conversation.

40:06

They're shifting the entire debate, both on the pro -life and pro -choice side. So and it's because, you know, you see that throughout scripture, too, of our forefathers in the faith, having that mindset of, you know, all

40:17

I need is myself and God, you know, I don't need armies and chariots and horsemen from Egypt, you know, let

40:23

God see, let God do what seems right to him. You know, the Lord will save by many or by few. That's the sort of ethos that our forefathers in scripture and in church history had.

40:32

And the extent to which we imbibe that in our day is the extent to which God will bless our labors, you know, at least normatively according to his will.

40:39

So that's what I would encourage all of us to do is just stand firmly on his word. And, you know, don't worry about compromise. You know, he he owns cattle on a thousand hills.

40:46

He's sovereign over the course of history. He will bless our labors as long as we are obeying him. Correct.

40:53

You know, the Lord will conquer by many or with just a few in his hands, in the hand of God.

41:00

I mean, seriously, what can who can stop him in accomplishing his will on earth?

41:06

The answer is no one. I appreciate that. Practically speaking, you know, for those who are listening here, what can they do to actually take real tangible steps towards the abolition of abortion in their own states?

41:19

Could you help us a little bit with that? Absolutely. So I think an important lesson to all of us, myself included, needs to learn is, you know, we have, as my friends at Operation Save America like to say, a glut of content as American Christians.

41:32

There's so many, you know, podcasts and books. And, you know, you run a podcast. I wrote a book. So, you know, not that that's bad.

41:38

Right. Inherently. But it can't stop there. It has to go beyond, you know, just taking in content and being informed.

41:43

But actually doing something with our hands and feet. So that looks like a lot of cases, you know, most states have abolition groups, local abolition groups, state abolition groups.

41:53

I would definitely recommend reaching out to them and seeing what they have going on. Maybe they have a conference coming up. Maybe they send people down to the abortion mills on the weekends.

42:00

You can join them and see what that's like. So, you know, there's Abolish Abortion Pennsylvania, Abolish Abortion Texas, End Abortion Ohio, Ego Protection South Carolina.

42:08

They're all throughout the country and they're doing really wonderful work on the to abolish abortion.

42:15

And like I said earlier, it's going to look different for everybody. Not everybody has as much time. You know, some people are retired and have more time.

42:22

Some are working and providing for a family. Some are raising little children. So it might differ just on that factor.

42:28

But there's always something we can do to obey God on this issue and reflect the same moral urgency that he has in his word, concerning child sacrifice.

42:37

So whatever it looks like, you know, invest your time, talent, treasure into this kingdom work and, you know, use your spiritual gifts that God has given you as part of his body.

42:46

And some of us are hands, some are feet, some are eyes, so it's gonna look different for everybody, but most certainly do something for the glory of Christ on this issue.

42:55

Yes, correct, doing something for the glory of Christ. And I'd like to ask you, especially because, you know, abortion, standing up against abortion is very costly.

43:05

What kind of opposition, slander, or even legal pushback do Christians expect if they uncompromisingly stand up against this titan, it seems?

43:18

Absolutely. So, yeah, we're going for Satan's crown jewel here, right? In any culture that he's dominating over, the crown jewel is child sacrifice, you know, murdering image bearers of God who are in their most innocent stage, most defenseless.

43:31

The enemy loves that, and he is going to fight tooth and nail against the people of God when they start to oppose it.

43:37

So, I've heard accounts of spiritual attack that have faced abolitionists, people who get involved in this work.

43:44

Certainly, just standing on the sidewalk outside an abortion mill, you get all sorts of vitriol. I've experienced that for sure.

43:50

Online, you'll see the hate start to spew, you'll see the attempts to cancel you at your job. I've seen a few examples of that, of Christians who have been involved in abolition groups, actually, you know, the pro -aborts figure out who they are and call into their work and get them fired, things like that.

44:04

So, but again, you have to count the costs. It's, you know, this is clearly in the will of God, this is the battle of our age, and it's going to take some of us taking those costs in order to actually stand up for these fatherless children and obey our

44:15

Lord on this issue. We don't have the option to sit this out, even if we do face some costs from time to time. Yeah, when

44:22

I think about getting into the abolitionist fight, I do think of the legal pushback is probably the worst, the political slander, and, you know, there's probably a lot of Christians that are obviously on our side, but they're working in everyday jobs like, you know,

44:37

I do. I work in finance, and, but, you know, to stand up in the middle of the conference room and say, no,

44:44

I stand up against this evil, or at least be known for someone that does that, even on social media, you know, if my job is at risk, if there's legal parameters that could be, you know, leveled against me, man, it seems so scary.

45:00

I think one of the legal pushback is one of the things that make Christians very hesitant in getting into this fight, but in regards to encouragement, you know, to endure, you know, how can, you know, how can believers prepare for the spiritual and emotional weight of this fight to honor

45:17

Christ in this fierce battle? Certainly, yeah, so it just being involved in this issue,

45:23

I've learned a lot about God's justice that oftentimes doesn't happen immediately, that it happens over the course of time, you know,

45:30

Psalm 37 is a great passage for that, you know, fret not yourself because of evildoers, against those who work wrong, you know, they're gonna fade like a leaf, you know, but the meek will inherit the earth, things like that, so sort of growing in your trust in that, just from reading the scriptures, you know, having a, having a devotional life, praying, you know, going, being involved in a solid church that has your back is really important, too.

45:52

The elders at our church certainly have our back when we go out to the sidewalks, and they're asking how we're doing, how they could pray for us, so having those sorts of basic pieces in line as a

46:02

Christian, as individual Christian, goes a very long way, but, you know, if you actually jump in with both feet on something when you're opposing abortion,

46:11

I promise you, as I've seen in my own life, God will grow you, he'll reward that, just in your own walk with the

46:17

Lord, so definitely, that's certainly a source of encouragement for me is, you know, it reminds me as well just being down at the sidewalks on Saturday that, you know, my life is brief, that there's a,

46:27

I'm in a battle, I'm called to be a soldier of Christ, soldiers don't get to rest when they're in enemy territory, they have to worry if they're gonna be under fire in the next second, so definitely encourage folks to just be involved for that issue, to be reminded that we're in a hot spiritual war concerning the

46:43

Great Commission, concerning the glory of Christ. Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned

46:49

Psalm 37 there, because that's an imprecatory psalm, do you follow imprecatory psalms for dads and moms on X?

47:01

I think I do, yeah, yeah. The other day, he posted something, and it was a meme, and one of the little segments of the meme, it said, how to be happy at life, and it was a guy, you know, sitting on the edge of his bed, opening a book with that title, how to be happy at life, and the first, the page of the book was, the quote you just mentioned from Psalm 37, and it's that, you know, the wicked will eventually be judged, and they will no longer exist, we don't need to fret against that,

47:33

God's justice will be established, and there's coming a day in which we will look around and say, hey, where is the evil doer?

47:39

Christ will win, and you know, Christians need to encourage themselves by reading more imprecatory psalms, and we need to pray for repentance, but we ought not to be too mushy about our prayers, we need to pray for justice to be established, and with that being said,

47:57

Ben, really want to thank you for joining us and speaking with clarity and conviction, and really a lot of hope, you know, listen, everybody, the abortion is a tragedy, but it's not just that, it's also national rebellion against God.

48:13

Scripture does not tell us to manage sin, it tells us to call people to repentance and abolish the injustice that's being done, so I encourage you, you know, to get

48:23

Ben's new book, you know, Forsakers of the Fatherless, read it, discuss it with your church, and to seriously act upon it, because Christ is

48:32

King, we need to be serving Him, not just in our personal, private lives, but in the public sphere, because He reigns, and He will, in fact, one day win.

48:42

Ben, is there anything you'd like to give the people so that they can help find you better? Any outlets you have that, you mentioned a few earlier, but anything else you'd like to help them to find you better?

48:56

Yeah, absolutely. I'd encourage folks to go to our website, the Foundation to Abolish Abortion, it's faa .life,

49:02

and we have a docuseries called Abortion Free that's been out for about two years now, but it's a really great deep dive into the abortion issue in America post -rogue, so sort of exposing where it is, especially in red states, and you know, so if you live in a red state, unlike you, it's going to be especially relevant, so seeing how abortion remains legal even in places where it's supposedly abortion -free.

49:22

On X, I'm at Ben's Ice Loft, so I'll post my articles that I'm writing there, so I'm, you know, often it's

49:28

Western Journal, a little bit for Clear Truth Media, some other Christian outlets that you may have seen here or there, but that's where you can find my work as well.

49:35

Ben, I seriously appreciate you taking the time to come on the podcast and just help us understand this a little better.

49:43

The fight is tough, but like I said, Christ reigns, and I hope, you know, you've been, the audience has been blessed by hearing you and encouraged by the position and work you're doing.

49:56

That being said, really appreciate you all for tuning into Truology. Ben, thank you so much, and you know,

50:04

I will continue to keep following your work, and you know, please come do some work in Massachusetts.

50:10

We need, we need things done here. A lot of work needs to be done. So, that being said, appreciate everyone for tuning in.

50:18

God bless you, and keep studying the truth. Truology is a podcast that seeks to equip, effect, and engage the world through Christ and his wonderful gospel of the kingdom, against which he has promised that the gates of hell shall never prevail but increased by his government, his law, and grace, till it be presented a glorious church without spot or wrinkle.

50:42

If there's any fear, threat, or worry, remember that the one that has called you according to his purpose and grace has also promised that all enemies will soon be placed under his feet.

50:54

Now, I want you to believe that, not because I said it, or because it sounds really nice and spiritual, but primarily, and wholeheartedly, and only, and biblically, because it's the truth.