Can Patriotism Become an Idol?

This patriotism ever become idolatrous. Well that's we're gonna talk about today.

Opening the Fourth of July Conversation

On conversations with a calvinist that begins right now. Welcome back to.

Conversations with a calvinist. And my name is Keith Foskey and I am a calvinist and I'm welcoming today my good friend and second time on the show Jake Korn. He is an army chaplain he is a wonderful brother in the Lord I do believe is a reformed Baptist I can say that cuz we share mutual love so you're not you're not like that that that that guy Matthew Henson who I have to say is my not yet calvinist friend you you're my fully calvinist friend.

I am confessionally committed. Awesome. Well thank you for being with me today Jake.

I am really just trying to catch up to the amount of visits on your show as Matt Henson has had. I can't let him beat me.

I'm gonna well well we're we're gonna have to have you on about six or eight more times but I I'd love it cuz I enjoy our conversations. So what we're talking about today is really a subject that you and I have have chatted about before and we felt like this would be important because today the day that this will go live is the fourth of July.

Independence Day a very important holiday and it's a holiday that that my family does celebrate. I do believe it's an important holiday and it's a it's a holiday that that we should be thankful for as Americans.

It's the day that we declared our independence from England and we now have our United States because of what happened on our Independence Day. And of course we're not the only country that celebrates its Independence Day there are other countries that celebrate Independence Day.

So this is something that we do every year. But oftentimes this celebration of American independence is brought in to the the worship time on Sunday mornings and I've seen many churches that that end up tailoring their entire service around the concept of Independence Day and then and then it becomes well we're gonna do that on Memorial Day or then we're gonna do that on Veterans Day and then we're gonna do that on on these different days and you end up several times a year having days that are not only driven by United States holidays but are but are really sort of rah-rah services for for stoking the patriotism fire now.

I know Jake that right now you're you're serving in the military. You're serving actively as a chaplain. But are you do you still see this in churches. Are you are you recognizing that this is happening in churches that you're involved with or how do you how is this affecting you specifically.

Patriotism, Military Service, and Church Worship

Yes I this is definitely been prevalent for my entire Christian life. I I do just want to throw a disclaimer at the beginning that none of my views expressed during this podcast are representative of the views of the United States government.

These are just Jake's views. This is not chaplain. This is not the United States Army. I usually don't have to say that but this issue is just kinda gonna cross over a little bit so I just wanna make sure that that people understand this is my opinion.

So I grew up in the West and you know out west I would say it is not something that I see have seen as prevalent as down here in the South. Now I'm in Savannah Georgia when I was a pastor I was a pastor in North Florida which is essentially South Georgia and and you know the the further east and south I got the more not just prevalent but but the more acute these instances of patriotism within the service became and I remember the first time it became noticeable to me.

I was just volunteering in a choir at a very large church here in Savannah and it was I remember it was a 4th of July service and they asked me to sing a special. It was not a song I'd ever heard and it was a more modern song.

It was just you know thanking God for the blessing of living somewhere free. I was like okay I'm super into thanking God. Right like I don't mind that but there were no none of the traditional patriotic hymns.

Well then I start working in a smaller church. A smaller church right a community church. And there they were much more hymn based church and I will say distinctly more dispensational which I think there's an overlap as to how much patriotism and how much dispensationalism go together in a church for theological reasons.

And then I saw the Pledge of Allegiance and three or four patriotic hymns and you know it ramped up in intensity. So I mean this is a real thing and it's a real question that pastors and elders need to be considering.

Right like I like in our RPW conversation I'm not. I'm not seeing a specific directive in scripture so with the wisdom of the body and the both sola and tota scriptura what are those.

Left and right limits that make the most sense. Yeah absolutely. And and I do I want to give a little disclaimer as well and I I've been telling myself I was going to do this so I'm going to do it now.

Forgive me if this is totally out of out of left field but I've been saying at the beginning of the show I want to mention to the audience your help in this show really helps me and and one of the things that you can do is if you're enjoying the content.

If you're enjoying today's show and you're listening to this on youtube you can hit like and subscribe. If you're listening to this on facebook you can share this with someone and if you're listening to it on a podcast you can subscribe to the podcast that would really help me out.

But I also want to add a a disclaimer about this subject. Both jake and I as I already mentioned we are men who would consider ourselves patriots. Jake has has dedicated his life to serving our country as a chaplain one of the one of the men who's willing to bring the gospel in a place that it's I would say would be difficult because you are under the restrictions and and structure of the United States military but you're still bringing the gospel and I'm so grateful for men like you.

I have a son who's serving in the United States Air Force and I pray that men like you are in his life and are are are able to share the gospel with him. I know he grew up hearing the gospel but you know like I said you're a patriot.

You're serving. I believe I'm a patriot. I've I've I've not only have I allowed my son to serve but I've been proud of his service and he's he's currently serving overseas and I'm grateful for that. So neither one of us in this conversation are intending in any way to diminish the concept of patriotism.

We're not in intending to diminish the the flag or the the the the role that America has played in in in being a light for good in many areas and and doing good things around the world and so you know we're we're not those.

Guys so I totally agree and I think that's the most important thing to start off with because these things do tend to devolve into a sort of you know name calling or devaluing our opponent. On the other side if you there's fireworks going on in the background of my neighborhood as well you know if if I start to say and I've experienced this hey I'm not comfortable with that or perhaps that expression is too much on the Lord's day the pushback automatically is oh well you're not patriotic and and I just don't.

I don't think that's helpful. What we're looking for is a rightly ordered life right. God first family country however you know that works out and it is the role of a pastor elder to shepherd his flock and to say even this good thing can possibly become idolatrous.

You know I always think of the uh the bronze serpent right from from the children of Israel's time in the wilderness that that they needed it was important. Jesus used as the bronze serpent as an example to describe his salvation but we forget that there was a time that the children of Israel kept it and and they had to destroy it because they formed an idolatrous relationship with that thing and not the God who uh empowered what that thing accomplished.

It was his his goal. And I feel the same about America God's providence that America was formed for his will for his purpose either you know at sometimes as an agent of his goodwill in the world. And perhaps sometime in the future or even now you know as a subject of his wrath and and justice um right so but but a rightly ordered patriotism and I even think there's there's some realm of patriotism on the Lord's day that's good to talk about.

And then there's also stuff that says maybe we push that to a Wednesday afternoon get together with the church you know what I mean there's but it's not a you're patriotic.

And I'm not is what I say absolutely and and uh just as you were talking about that I I have um I've had the benefit of serving many funeral services for men and women who served in the armed forces. And I've been to the Jacksonville National Cemetery if I've been once.

I've been 50 times I mean I I've you know I've been so many times that I know the people who work there and I know the young men and young women who fold the flag and who present it to the spouse or the next of kin.

And I've seen that flag folded so many times. I've heard that the the playing of taps which I finally I found out they actually don't play taps. The guy holding the bugle it's it's fake. Yeah it's rare.

It's rare that you get an actual player now. Yeah yeah which is I mean it's fine but people don't realize that guy's not really playing it he's just holding it. But um we but when they hand that flag and they say you know please accept this flag as a as a um in honor of your of your loved one's faithful service on behalf of the president united states.

Please please. That's that's always touching it's always a moment of of uh you know where I say to myself this this person earned this whatever the whatever it may be whether they served their four years and got out or whether they served 20 years and and and and retired or whatever.

This person did something that was of value and and I'm grateful for and I'm grateful to be able to honor them in their at their funeral. So so yeah yeah the idea of not being a patriot because we're going to question the subject of having worship services that center around.

You know I mean because honestly there are services that happen today I'm certain because we're recording this on Sunday that's going to go out tomorrow. There are services today where I'm certain songs which sang about America were sung in worship America America you know.

And it becomes a question of okay what did we come here today to do. Yeah and and and and what's interesting is I know you know this but the audience may not. If you take a hymn book there's a whole section in the older hymn books even the the modern.

The one that we have is the one that Lifeway published back in the early 2000s which was called the Worship Hymnal. It was the New Baptist Hymnal but it was also called the Worship Hymnal for churches that weren't Baptist so we weren't Baptist.

So we bought the Worship Hymnal there's a whole section Star Spangled Banner.

America is Beautiful. Yeah my country. Tis of thee.

Yeah yeah. And for a moment as a former. Well I guess I wouldn't call you a former worship leader but one who. That was your job for a while right. Yeah was to lead worship. I'm sure you still do but I mean that was your job title as a worship leader.

How did you respond when people came and said I think we should have sang America the Beautiful today. Oh boy.

Theological Limits of Patriotic Songs in Worship

So you know when I started working for this small church I had come from a just a different background and I came into the church and at the time it had a traditional service and a contemporary service.

And when I first came in the traditional service kind of had its own crew running it and so like at first I was not invited to kind of take part in that and then in the so I ran the contemporary service and I didn't we didn't do any hymns.

And honestly this is so funny. So the church had done bulletins up until I showed up and my first big patriotic holiday I don't remember which we did not do any patriotic songs. I played a you know a transition video with a bit of a patriotic thank god for where we live kind of thing and and there was a nice patriotic prayer and I told a bit of my story but we just didn't do any patriotic songs.

Well at the time we printed one bulletin that had traditional on one side and contemporary on the other side. Well the traditional service folks looked at the contemporary song list and saw that we didn't have any patriotic songs.

And they came to me and said well why aren't you guys doing any patriotic songs for a service that they're not even going to. Yeah you know like like their service was entirely patriotic songs and ours wasn't.

I said like you know one like you didn't come to the service and I think we struck a nice chord you know it was like today it was a Sunday that wasn't actually the fourth. I think it was like July 2nd and you know we acknowledged it and prayed for the country.

But no that you know they said well you have to sing sing songs. And I said I the classic Calvinist answer by what standard. By what standard do I have to. And and and I'm sad to say I was a young new pastor and it it started more of a row than I wanted.

Um and I started to really learn about you know this church's tradition and and their theology and how that influenced this choice and their opinion of America. You know this was a very dispensational church which I was completely new to dispensationalism frankly um you know and for them there is this theological concept that God created America so that America would establish Israel the nation you know and and thus right there is this this overlap it's not just God's providence.

Right. It is his direct acting in an eschatological frame. And the pastor the outgoing pastor who was kind of in his retirement years you know we had a long talk about it and I said you know um for my generation we're a bit of a skeptical generation.

Um it's a tough sell for you to tell me that like how much honor you want us to have for the country in this service. Uh we are coming in for in like a post Vietnam post Roe versus Wade mindset we're now we're post post Roe versus Wade praise the lord amen.

Right. Um you know but this was 2015 or so. Um you know like for us the concept of America is a it's a much more murkier water whereas the traditional service congregation these are uh you know some some silent generations of folk who served in the Korea war you know less um gray right more black and white.

Uh and and they would say well you know my patriotism is.

My faith and I let me stop you. I don't mean interrupt. You know I have heard that on multiple occasions and that strikes such a such a a negative chord in my heart to hear someone say my patriotism is my faith and I can't believe one.

I can't believe people would say it but also I don't know exactly what they mean. I think I know what they mean. I hope I'm giving them the grace to.

There's a charitable reading. Yes that yeah the charitable reading is is you know god first intertwines our faith into how it's expressed in this country that has a first amendment right to religious expression.

That's the charitable reading. Yeah but but nonetheless like like that's not just toes on the line that's like dancing on the line. And and the pastor encouraged me to say that that's a good thing and I'm like man I don't I don't know if it is and and so I kind of took a very watchful stance.

I you know I was fairly new. I gave my opinion to the pastor and the elders but I said like you know I'm not running the church I'm not an elder yet here so I'm going to honor your decisions and I'll tell you the next patriotic holiday.

I paid attention um and and I am not as you listened to our last conversation I'm not somebody who's going to judge uh pretty intensely somebody's worship style I don't care if you're raising your hand uh if you're dancing I'll think you're weird but I'm not going to think you're you know unbiblical um but I paid attention and for the most part that traditional service right.

No one ever raised their hands but by golly the next patriotic holiday when we sing patriotic songs there are some folk who raised their hands in the patriotic songs with a sense of this urgency that I didn't see for a you know how great thou art or you know some other great hymn that the direct subject is is God.

Um and to me I began to say like look man like this is not an inherently sin issue but we have an idolatry issue here that it's just too blurry and in my opinion the the answer to that is for the eldership to draw a hard and fast line right.

This is a you know if your American flag causes you to sin pluck it out of your.

Sanctuary you know what I mean. Um because it's better and there's the quote of the show just say.

That's the that's the calvinist in me right. We're a bit iconoclastic right. Like it's kind of our nature just to say might be too close to an idol so let's burn it like that just is our history um but with good scriptural warrant to say like I don't need that if there's a question.

I don't need it but clarify you are not encouraging anyone to burn a flag. Of course not. I don't want anybody leaving that comment below. Oh he said burn a flag I tell you man.

After five years maybe six years six years pesky six years I encourage them to let's move the flag to the lobby. And it caused a riot. It caused a riot it caused a near church split. I mean to gently say it's time to just move this to the lobby for lots of reasons right.

Not just the idolatry issue which I don't even think like I didn't make that a primary issue but also like hey man what if you know there was an Iranian Christian who is not even a citizen that for whatever reason made it to our service and they have some weird opinions about America.

Should we put a barrier of entry to our worship service. Right. Because we're coming together under the banner of Christ first. And that's a it's a tough it's a tough issue. Right. Like it's a there's there's not an easy answer.

Um. I mean I guess there's the easiest answer which is just don't um at all in your Sunday morning in the Lord's day. Right. Um but but like how that works itself out in the life of a church is is something that should be dealt with some sensitivity.

Excuse me and some caution but I don't know yeah and I would I would add a thought um to what you just said because you mentioned the the Iranian guy showing up and I and I that obviously there's that's possible that could happen.

I do. I would go a step further maybe in my argument and I do think what you said is completely true. So I'm not questioning the the reality that that could happen we could have an Iranian we could have anybody could show up that but it's the the place that I have the issue with the flag in the sanctuary since you brought it up we'll we'll kind of deal with that and I do have I have a quote from the internet I want to read and we're going to talk about that too.

But the thing that I take issue with with the with the flag in the sanctuary is when we are looking at the chancel and and and I don't call it a stage. I I know a lot of people call it a stage. Some people call it a platform.

Um you know I call it a chancel because that's the traditional name and it keeps me from saying the word stage. I don't think stage is sinful to say. I just prefer not to say stage. So when we look at that platform and we begin to think about the the focal the focal point and I do think there are three focal points on the chancel.

You have the the place where the word of God is is held. We call that the pulpit. Some churches have moved to a table or to a music stand or whatever. But I do think that that place has a place of honor and for good reason in fact the the very idea of protestantism is the is the is the upholding of the word of God that you know the church is the pillar in support of the truth and the truth is in is that word.

So having that place. The second of course is the place where we serve communion that is the the bread and the cup and that's it that tends to in most churches sit right in front of the pulpit whether it's one level below on the steps.

It's still right in front of the pulpit. It's still center it's still in a place of prominence and depending on your church us being baptist our baptistry sits behind the pulpit. And therefore these three things center our mind on on God's word and God's sacraments his the two things that that picture us as believers.

We have the the baptism which which enters us into the covenant uh community and the and the lord's supper which which is what we do as the covenant community community and and I don't mean to be this but the point I'm making is for years there were there are videos of me online.

I mean I preached for years with it with flags behind me. One was American flag one was a Christian flag. And I always I always looked at those videos and would always sort of grimace because I would I look like I look like somebody who was a politician because behind me were these two big flags that were between me and the baptistry and they stood as like almost like two pillars of you know we are this is who we are.

And and and so yes I do think it could be offensive to the Iranian but but but to me as a believer I think we're we're placing it in the wrong place. Yeah yeah.

I completely agree that the symbolism is so important um you know as uh uh brothers of the tradition tradition isn't usually our main watchword right we're we're soul scripts for people but we still like traditions and we do things for a reason and there's always been this kind of symbolism of where things are placed and why they're placed there as a way of just communicating the gospel with all of our senses.

And I'm completely into that. Um and I completely agree that uh there is a certain baggage that is carried by just just the the visual because you or somebody made a choice. This goes here and this is why.

And this is at that level and this is why. And and when we look at scripture then as our guide scripture actually tells us the opposite. Right scripture actually says we're citizens of heaven. Scripture actually says there's no you know barbarian civian slave or free.

Uh scripture does not give us the picture that says combine these things. Scripture says the opposite. Now I say that to say this the lord's day. Right. We look at that as something that is set apart special a gift of grace.

It is something that we value and is valuable. But the church should not just be about what do we do during that hour and 15 minutes we are about walking together through life you know all week long and as pastor elders we're shepherding our flock all seven days of the week.

Which is why to me when I say hey let's keep the flag and the flag songs out of the lord's day celebration because that's set apart but it is no less part of the life of the church. If we then go have a banging barbecue where we have a flag praise god for our blessings tell stories about veterans in honor you know what I mean it is not less that it's put there but it is rightly ordered in my opinion now it's weird to say because I'm an army chaplain.

Right. Right like but I agree. Right like um I have a theological perspective on chapel um that is very much informed by my faith as a reformed baptist a confessionally uh committed reformed baptist that chapel is not church.

Chapels and churches are very different. Right. A chapel is a stopgap measure if you're stuck in the hospital or you're traveling on a cruise ship or you're deployed to a foreign location where you are separated from your church but and specifically what I mean by that separated from the elders under which under whom you are under their spiritual authority where you can still you know in a similar capacity without that sort of authority receive the gift of grace of preaching the gospel.

But a chapel is is not a church. And so the symbolism that is you know present in a chapel is just going to be by nature different because it's not under authority. I as a chaplain I am given to the army by an organization similar to a missionary.

I am not a pastor with authority. I cannot with authority determine I can preach from the pulpit. Right. But but if a brother comes to a chapel service with his mistress and not his wife I don't actually have any ability to you know properly do church discipline to him.

Um and so that order matters. Right. So the symbolism in the chapel service is going to be very different in a church setting though which is we're talking about we are shepherding our flock. And so why is it less to say the lord's day is set apart for this this is an hour that we set apart for this celebration but this barbecue or this parade or this special time of gathering whatever how is that less and if you're fighting too hard for it to be put into that special set apart time I as your pastor immediately say we need to examine the heart on that and people don't like that at all.

No nobody.

Wants to be questioned on this issue either. Nobody wants to have to defend anything. They just want to. They just want to say it. They just want to say this is. This is the way it is I tell you and.

The Flag in the Sanctuary and the Meaning of Sacred Space

During that whole phase of my life um I mean there was a town hall called and and the elders you know were were defending their choice because ultimately they went with the choice. Well I was an elder at the time we went with the choice uh to move the flags but there was a shouting match in the in the in the church and um I mean it was definitely thrown at me that that that y 'all aren't patriots y 'all don't have any patriots.

I'm thinking man I have I have buried friends under that flag I have stood vigil as it is draped over coffins I have handed it to people I don't know I have delivered multiple you know funeral messages uh under that flag I have fought and bled for it like don't don't tell me I'm not patriotic.

I'm just trying to get us to be rightly ordered and my goodness why would you fight against that. Uh that that's the now. I don't want to be guilty of saying if they're saying you're not patriotic. I don't want to be guilty of saying well you're not faithful to Christ.

But but as a pastor it is kind of my job right as a pastor elder to say hey brother here's what the Bible says let's check your heart on it. The Bible does say our citizenship is in heaven. How does that rate with what what you're talking about.

Um man people don't like that. There's a great story of uh John Piper he went through this you know at his church um you know and and and he is a much wiser man than I am as far as pastoring and and rightly dividing the word goes on most issues.

Um I'm I'm more right on some issues. Uh uh you know amen. Yeah uh you know and and he came to a similar place where eventually you just have to say like hey right is right and wrong is wrong. And and under the authority of this church how we rightly divide the word.

Um this is what we've decided is going to happen for these reasons. Um and I assume you love Jesus and you should assume I love Jesus. And so under uh the authority of the word of God. Here's how your elders are rightly deciding this decision.

And that might not be what your elders that's why we're. That's why we're reformed baptists and not Presbyterians. If the church next to me and their elders faithfully came to a different decision of where their flags go.

Okay. Right as long as as long as they're they're as long as they're always reforming right to to what scripture calls us to that decision is what's right for their flock. Because the idolatry issue is what's different.

If that idolatry issue is growing like yeast then then that thing just needs to be cut out.

You know what I mean I'm rambling a lot. I'm sorry. No no I you're you're you're right. And the part that that that you keep mentioning about the idolatry issue and that's very true I think also um you hit on something earlier I want to circle back.

Um and that is the idea that you you didn't sing the songs the church that you were at they they saw that you didn't sing the songs you said they had the bulletin they looked at that um and and did they was there ever a time that they that that that anyone got upset because you didn't sing how great thou art or you didn't say.

You know what I'm saying. Yeah it's like this is a this is a issue that seems to rile people up in there and it's like this where you get upset tends to be where you place value. Amen. Yes. And so when I think about like when I when when in 2008 when our church went through the issues of calvinism I understand why people were upset.

I understand why the the the few people who really disagreed with me because they really thought that calvinism was dangerous they really thought because they had they'd heard these things about it. I get it and I did try to be gracious even though there was some some that made it hard because they they came hard against me and accused me of things that weren't true.

But ultimately I get that I you know and and so if somebody comes to me and says hey man you know the songs that we're singing I'm concerned with the theology of those songs. Okay all right. Well let's talk about what it is you have a concern about or if even if you know even though I you know this whole Hillsong Bethel thing there's a lot of argument and we can talk about that another time but it already.

Well yeah yeah yeah we did during the during the uh the the rpw conversation. So if that issue came up at least I know the heart of the person they're concerned about they're concerned about biblical integrity and theology and these things absolutely.

And and and then we get to this issue. If a person comes and they're concerned about the flag for I do want to give them the grace to say okay you you think that by not having this flag here that that is somehow diminishes the value of the men and women who fought diminishes the value of our freedom that we have to to celebrate and worship freely.

All these things are good. But you understand that's not my purpose my purpose is not to diminish the value of these men or this the my my my purpose is so that we do not confuse. Yeah what we are here to do.

Yeah we are here to worship. Yes men and women have died for our ability to worship but um we can celebrate them another time. We're here to celebrate christ and they they probably would want us to focus on christ frankly um especially those who've died and went to be with christ.

Oh yeah amen to that. No I completely agree with you. I think you know if it was sanctity of life sunday. Right. Um and we didn't mention sanctity of life. And someone came up to me and said hey you didn't mention sanctity of life.

There's more cause for that because that I think a clearly biblical stance. Right. This is clearly something that scripture endorses is that we defend the weak and execute justice. Right. Justice. Um but if I come to fourth of july and I don't sing my country tis of thee um there's not a clear biblical warrant to do so.

It's it's extraneous you know at best. And like you said um you know yes people have fought and died I'm alive. But you would think my presence in that conversation would disarm them as I'm saying hey member of that community.

Don't worry. Checked in with them we're good let's keep doing the gospel. But it didn't it didn't impact it whatsoever. Which says to me it isn't actually about that. It's it's about our addiction to traditions.

Right. We talked about that last time. Uh the the tradition of the church is an addicting drug. Um and and we have really good uh ways of of transforming how we view scripture in order to inform keeping our traditions the way we like them.

And if we could be more honest about that I think we would probably have a better way. But it's we we want to justify our tradition scripturally rather than right scripturally derive our traditions if that makes sense.

No absolutely. And and uh I want to I want to bring up what this guy wrote I shared it with you before the show and I think this is as good a time as any to to bring this in because there are there are guys out there who would say pastors who would say we need this flag we need patriotic songs.

We need a fourth of July service. We need a service that centers on America and I've even seen churches maybe you have seen them too where they would invite like senators to speak something like these big baptist churches that have access to big names.

I mean I mean doggone. Uh what was his name. Mike Pence yeah you know was a vice president. I'm sure I don't remember it specifically but I'm sure there was a time where he has spoke in a church on a Sunday morning during the sermon time.

Yeah where he spoke about America rather than really focusing on on on Christ. But this is a guy and I am going to mention his name for the sake of not for the sake of defaming in any way because I don't know this brother and I do count him as a you know he's a brother.

He I believe he's a pastor but his name is Kyle Cadell. And Kyle if you ever hear this. No brother we're not. I'm not downing you in any way I actually want to interact with what you've said here. In fact I'm going to tag you in this on Twitter so that you can see that we're going to interact with this and I hopefully we do so in a respectful way.

But this is this is what Kyle says he says praying in advance for those young pastors who get inspired by the evangelical Twitter verse to make a statement by removing the flag from the sanctuary that's been posted there for 25 years and was donated by the late brother Herschel's family.