July 8, 2016 Show with Douglas Van Dorn on “Giants: Sons of the Gods”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day of July 2016, and I'm very excited about this program today.

We are going to be dealing with a subject that I have never dealt with, at least as a full program, on Iron Sharpens Iron ever since we very first launched in 2006, and I'm going to read a description of our topic today right from the way that this book is described because it perfectly sets up our interview for us.

Goliath, you know the story, but why is it in the Bible? Is it just to give us a little moral pick-me-up as we seek to emulate a small shepherd boy who defeated a giant? Have you ever wondered where Goliath came from?

Did you know that he had brothers, one with 24 fingers and toes? Did you know their ancestry is steeped in unimaginable horror? Genesis 6, the Nephilim. The first few verses of this chapter have long been the speculation of supernatural events that produced demigods and a flood that God used to destroy the whole world.

The whole world remembers them. Once upon a time all Christians knew them, but for many centuries this view was mocked, though it was the only known view at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

Today it is making a resurgence among Bible-believing scholars and for a good reason. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward. This book delves deep into the dark and ancient recesses of our past to bring you rich treasures long buried.

It is a carefully researched, heavily footnoted, and selectively illustrated story of the giants of the Bible. There is more here than meets the eye, much more. Here you will learn the invisible supernatural storyline of the Bible that is always just beneath the surface, lurking like the spawn of the ancient Leviathan.

It is a storyline no person can afford to ignore any longer. Unlike other more sensational books on the topic, there is no undue speculation to be found here. The author is a Bible-believing Christian who refuses to use such ideas to tell you the end of the world is drawing nigh.

Once you discover the truth about these fantastic creatures, you will come to see the ministry and work of Jesus Christ in a very new and exalting light. Come learn the fascinating, sobering, yet true story of the real giants who played a significant role in the Bible and still to this day.

And we are speaking of the book, Giants, Sons of the Gods, by Douglas Van Dorn, pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado. Douglas Van Dorn received his Master of Divinity at Denver Seminary, and he is the author of Waters of Creation, a biblical theology of baptism.

Galatians, A Supernatural Justification, and the book we are discussing today, Giants, Sons of the Gods. He has also written Covenant Theology, a Reformed Baptist primer. From the Shadows to the Savior, Christ in the Old Testament, and the Unseen Realm, Q &A companion.

He has pastored the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado since 2002, and he co-hosted the radio show, Journey's End, from 2011 to 2012. He served at one time on the Administrative Council of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, also known as ARPCA, and is presently working on the ground floor of starting up the Reformed Baptist Network.

He has been married to his wife, Janelle, since 1994. They have four girls, and he has climbed all 54 of Colorado's 14 ,000-foot mountains, and also Mount Rainier in Washington, and Mount Shasta in California.

Well, according to that statistic, I've only climbed one more mountain than he has. Just kidding. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Douglas Van Dorn.

Thanks for having me on, Chris. It's great to have you on, and it's great to be able to discuss with you this exciting and fascinating subject, Giants, Sons of the Gods, for the very first time. Not only are you a first-time guest, but you're addressing a first-time subject on this broadcast.

And let me introduce to you, on air, my co-host as of late, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.

Greet our guest, Buzz. Greetings, indeed. I am looking forward to a very interesting talk today.

And if you... Have fun, Buzz. Yes, and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Doug Van Dorn, you can email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. That's C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the good old USA. And this subject that we are addressing today is largely based on texts found in Genesis 6, verses 1 through 4.

Let me just read those verses for you. Now, it came about when men began to multiply in the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh. Nevertheless, his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.

Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Quite a fascinating text of scripture that has people arguing and debating over what exactly those verses mean, and other verses as well in the scripture that relate to those texts.

And you could have people, as I've been saying lately, we've been dealing with a lot of issues in Iron Shepherds Iron, that not only do people in the same denomination often disagree upon, you have people in the same congregation disagreeing, and maybe even the same pew disagreeing as to their meaning, and we'll be getting into that subject as deeply as we can within a two-hour time frame today.

And first of all, let me ask you, Doug, what was the first catalyst in your study of the scriptures or in your life that made you say, I've got to really study this in further depth? Because it seems that whenever issues like this come up, you'll have a lot of pastors or even scholars say, we really don't know what that was, it's not really that important, it's not really relative to the church in the third millennium, as we have all these other issues that are far more important facing us with Islam taking over the world step-by-step and filling us globally with terror as they perform so many atrocious acts of terrorism, and there's men marrying men, and women marrying women, and homosexuals adopting children, there's all kinds of things that we're facing, and a lot of people just will fluff things like this off as something we're never going to know exactly what that means, so let's not really waste our time on it.

I, of course, am doing a two-hour interview with you on this, so I differ greatly on that view of just sweeping something like this under the carpet. What made you say, I've got to study this deeply,.

And eventually you said, I'm going to write a book on this? Yeah, well, the first thing that comes to my mind is the examples you gave, and Islam actually did the giants, so maybe we could get into that at some point, I don't know, but to answer your question there about lifelong just fascination with in pre-flood sort of stuff, and so I've read all sorts of crazy, crazy things.

I happen to be writing a book on baptism several years ago, it was right after I got my, it was right as I was getting my MDiv at Denverson, I couldn't do it, so I was writing, thinking about some stuff Greg Beal would come out with in a year or two after that on the temple, and it's kind of a strange thinking about Beal into writing about the Garden of Eden as a temple, and those kinds of things seem to be an exodus, eight or nine years ago now, also kind of not, and I see in 2001, and the title was Deuteronomy 32, and this is like a 40, 50, 32, 8, where if you go and read the ESV, it was completely fascinated by this, and he doesn't talk about it, and didn't think about it for about three months, and then I was doing some research, a guy on the internet that sounded an awful lot like the guy I had read in this article, turns out it's the exact same guy, and I just, it turns out that, and he did his PhD studies in something called the Divine Council, which is the heavenly beings that help, and you'll read about this in like Meredith Klein talking, you're right, grounded in the scripture, and reading more of Heisman, I said all right, I really have to start thinking about this, so mine just out came that book.

Well I'm glad you did, and let's not forget Meredith Klein, one of the great women heroes of the faith, I'm just kidding, I say the same thing about Lorraine Bettner, but anyway, and Kim Riddle Barter, but well, you brought up something interesting, because it seems that as much as I love and cherish and treasure my Reformed theology and my Reformed heroes, both past and present, and most of my books are by Reformed authors, most of the books I own and have read, in fact, almost every Arminian pastor I've ever met, even when they are anti-Calvinist, when I look in their libraries, the vast majority of the books they have are written by Calvinists, and some of them don't even realize that, but having said that, it seems that our Reformed brethren shy away from things like this, they shy away from talking about it.

I recently had a program on the demonic realm and demon possession, and I interviewed a Missouri Synod Lutheran minister and a missiologist who has had quite a bit of experience studying this in South America and other places, and it seems that a lot of our Calvinist brethren shy.

Away from it. What do you think the reason for that is? Oh boy, I've talked with several friends about that very question for many hours. I think, so kind of that was the trajectory of the Reformation early on, and you know, so maybe guys just, that you just kind of take the Augustine view of, and it's just marriage between, so it could just be as simple as that.

I think there's another explanation, which is that I just really think, and I've been in this world now for, you know, eight or nine years, that there is a whole world view of the supernatural that the Bible gives to us, and the giants are the world view, and you don't have the world view, so you're kind of like the people that do talk, so you end up with some pretty strange things when they're.

Talking about demons and so on. Yeah, what I said to my Lutheran guest recently was that I think that, at least with my Calvinist brethren, I know for a fact that Calvinists, and remember, I am one folk, so I'm not bashing some group of people that I don't have an affiliation with, Calvinists are terrified of guilt by association, and they really don't want to be, you know, lumped together with some of the fringe Pentecostal and charismatic teachers and preachers and authors who have all kinds of sensationalistic things to say, and it seems like they just would rather not even address those things, but I just want, before, I think Buzz wants to ask a question, but I just wanted to clarify something.

I don't know what edition of the New American Standard Bible you read that text in, but the one that I read from is a NASB reference, and it uses Sons of God. Now, is that in Deuteronomy 32 .8? Oh, I'm sorry, I'm talking about Genesis 6, 1 through 4.

Yeah,.

Genesis 6, it's consistently the Sons of God, but in Deuteronomy 32 .8, Heiser actually calls it the Deuteronomy 32 world view, that's how important that chapter is. Okay, now we've all... So that's the variant, yeah.

I think we've all had an experience.

Before where we have learned a particular thing, and we look at the scriptures, and it's like, I'm not so sure about that, but yet, and of course, adding to the list of not wanting to be guilty by association, I appreciate what you said in your book also, that almost all the time, this is tied into end time scenarios, and they lose me right away, but on the other hand, I can recall many times looking at the traditional view, thinking, well, you know, well, R .C. Sproul once said, if you come up with something that's been, you know, missed for 2 ,000 years of church history, chances are your interpretation is wrong, but yet, you point out that this has not escaped 2 ,000 years of the church's knowledge, it's just,.

Our heroes didn't get it. Yeah, I mean, it's even more than that, I think. I make the point in the introduction of the Acts of Jesus, the giant view, the only view, and among Jews and Christians, we have this view, so there isn't a Sethite view until really you get longer than.

America has been a country. Oh, yeah. Well, I think everybody's waiting with bated breath in the audience as to what your view is, because I don't think you detailed it. I was going to say,.

We better start, you've got four different views that are predominant that we probably need to.

Understand before we get into the subject. Yes, good idea, good idea. Yeah, go through the major.

Views and tell us what your view is. Okay, so I would really say that there's really only two major views, and to put them simply, there's a supernatural, sons of God are heavenly beings, and that's the older view, held by all the earliest out of the second, and that what's going on in Genesis, the book of Ezra, where non-Jews are getting in trouble for it.

Now, there's another view, the view that actually Meredith Klein has, and they're children like demigods, or you could believe that in the natural view, because all that view is saying is that these men of renown were these dynastic kings.

So these, you believe that the sons of God,.

These giants, were angelic beings. Were they fallen angelic beings? Were they angelic beings within the graces of God and His pleasure, or were they enemies of God?

Where do you fit in that puzzle? Okay, so there's, let me clarify one point. So in Genesis 6, and that view, and for lack of a better word, I don't like the word, you have the daughters of men would be, you know, human women, and then the Nephilim, and a lot of people get this confused.

The Nephilim, I see, I see. Okay, so when did they fall, the only being that was in the Garden of Eden, and called Satan, you know, when did he fall? I kind of take the view that he actually, and that there's, you know, that's one question, but certainly at the time that it would be.

And we do have, you already answered it to a degree,.

The question that our friend, our listener, John in Phoenix, Arizona, has, but if you want to expand on it, John in Phoenix, Arizona, says, my question for Mr. Dorn, Van Dorn it should be, is this, is this, where did the interpretation for Genesis 6 that the sons of God were angels.

Come from? Oh boy, it comes before the New Testament was written. It seems to come from between Malachi and the New Testament, and one of the, one of the main reasons why I actually hold this view is because I'm convinced that Jude and 2nd Peter are writing in that tradition, when they start talking, writing the book of Enoch, first citing it positively, he's actually alluding at one time.

They're all positive allusions, and I agree that Enoch is telling he doesn't believe the main point of the, it's very deceptive for him to be, you know, affirming everything about it, but really I don't believe the giants, and when you go in and read that book and said that, included in the canon is because it was so old we couldn't trust it.

And so, I mean, I would never argue that Enoch should be in the, telling this story of the giants in the 1st, 3rd Union quoted by S. I. Juden. And we also have a listener in Clinton Township,.

Michigan, Jeff, who says, where did the giants come from in Numbers 13 if the flood destroyed the DNA of these creatures? I read the Omega Conspiracy by D. E. Thomas, but his use of extra-biblical writings to make his case disqualified him in my mind.

Thank you all.

Maybe one of the people on the ark carried the genetic information, his wife probably. I don't know if that's true or not. Then another group of them at the end, so there may actually be biblical reason to believe this, believe it or not, from 1st Corinthians 11, bunny trail, but, and it's kind of very similar.

I think Bill Cosby also had a view on that. How long can you tread.

Water? A good memory. And we have to go to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We already have a couple of people waiting patiently to have their questions asked and answered. And by the way, to our first two listeners already, you are getting, or I should say our first two listeners that sent in questions, you are getting a free copy of this book each, compliments of our guest, so you have to re-email me your full mailing addresses so I can have those books shipped out to you as soon as possible.

And once again, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we thank our guest for supplying those free books of his to give away today to our listeners, and obviously we have a limited supply, so I don't know if we're going to be able to give all of you a free copy, but we'll get to as many as we can.

And we're going to be going to a break right now, and we hope that you stay tuned, and we'll be right back with Doug Van Dorn and our discussion of The Giants, The Sons of the Gods. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Pastor Douglas Van Dorn. And we are discussing one of his books today, Giants, Sons of the Gods.

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. We have a question from Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, and she asks, if it is clear from the New Testament that angels cannot procreate, there is neither male nor female in the angelic realm, how could these creatures have been.

Angels since they procreated? I'm sorry, Chris, you broke up there at the very end. Really? Okay,.

I'm sorry about that. Basically, the guest, or should I say the listener, Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, wants to know how these creatures could have procreated if the Bible says angels.

Don't do that. Actually, Dr. James Boyce from 10th Presbyterian has a series on Genesis, and he deals with that question very well, I think. She procreate, he says that they don't. And he's not talking about fallen angels, he's talking about the angels that are in heaven.

So I think that, you know, I get that question a lot, and I just think that it's a misreading.

Of what Jesus is saying. Okay. Well, Susan, you're also getting a free copy of the book, so you could learn more about this subject if you give us your full mailing address, and that's Giants, Sons of the Gods.

Thank you very much for writing today. This is an issue that some of our brethren who may be embarrassed by what we're talking about today, some of our brethren who are in these academic circles who are even embarrassed by young earth creationists, they think that we are single-handedly thwarting the spread of the gospel because we are mixing an unproven teaching that the earth is very, very old with the gospel, and therefore, since scientists are in unison dismissing an old earth, I'm sorry, a young earth, I mixed that up there for a second, since scientists are in unison dismissing a young earth, that we are basically embarrassing the church, and we are the cause of the more deep-thinking person rejecting the gospel.

How do you respond to that kind of thing? I mean, have you heard this before? I mean, I don't know if I'm the only one bringing it up, but I've... Yeah, I mean,.

Yeah, I've certainly heard that with what Bill Nye was doing with Ken Ham, right? So, as far as the giants go, I mean, it kind of begs the question. Well, I would agree with you. I'm.

Just saying that there are those that try to give us a hard time about that, and it's unfortunate because I think that that kind of thinking that would be opposed to a serious study of these being real historic creatures as you've described them, an out-and-out rejection of that kind of thing is usually a doorway into liberalism because you're just gonna start denying a whole lot of things that the scriptures, the God-breathed, inerrant scriptures have taught us.

Yeah.

Well, we have very sufficient biblical evidence, at least we have to admit, for the existence of these creatures because we get into exact sizes and things in the book of Deuteronomy and so forth. Could you tell us a little bit about the evidence we see for giants in the scriptures?

Yeah, that's really... My book is trying to be a biblical theology of giants, so it takes us from Genesis all the way to the end. And, you know, believe it or not, there's an awful lot that's there. People just...

What I like to do is I like to say, you know, you already believe in giants because you believe that Goliath, and you believe that he fought against David, right? And David killed him, and Goliath, and they turned it into, you know, slaying all the giants, and he's actually a literal giant right there, fighting...

David's fighting. So when people can kind of grasp it, yeah, I guess I do already believe in giants, don't I? Then you start, sure enough, when you start reading even about Goliath himself, it gives you a genealogy and it says that he's one of the and it gives...

There's that better mention, kind of right together at the end of one of the books of Solomon. It's very close to unique features about him, and it just kind of talks it like.

It's an ordinary thing. Yeah, so in other words, if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture, you can't say this is allegorical or anything like that. Yeah, I mean, Goliath was a real person.

Well, I've heard people try to explain Goliath away by saying he's had a particular pituitary problem, and he was, therefore, he had bad eyesight and all the stuff because he was a mutation.

Sure, you say the mutation, how are we going to know that? We do have a listener in Mastic.

Beach, Long Island,. Tyler, who asks, are the mentions of the behemoths in the Bible taken as Paleolithic creatures, such as dinosaurs, by most Christians? Is it a common conclusion to.

The layperson? Well, behemoth is not a person. He's some sort of an animal or a creature.

Right, right. He's kind of related, but kind of not. Right, you said that they were Paleolithic creatures, such as the dinosaurs. Right, yeah. Yeah, but obviously you are saying that they are references to dinosaurs then.

I know that some folks have said they were hippopotamus and other kinds of animals. They try to dismiss the prehistoric, quote-unquote, animals that are often claimed by Old Earth folk or by non-Christians as predating the human race, but obviously we as Christians do not believe that the dinosaurs necessarily predated human.

Beings, but anyway. Yeah, I mean, Leviathan and behemoth are kind of the two characters there, and Leviathan's a really interesting one because he actually is kind of a mythical figure, and he's used that way in the scripture, but also he seems to be, you know, in your reading, we don't, a hyena, and so that's a hyena at the same time, and same sort of a deal, like that's Leviathan.

I guess a lot of people raise their eyebrows, especially because of the fire-breathing description and that kind of thing, but as even I've seen in the past, Ken Ham brought up, bring up in a conference, or one of his scientists that was on a panel, there are even insects that can shoot flames out of themselves today.

Yeah, the bombardier beetle, I remember. Yeah, yeah,.

There you go, there you go. Dwayne Gish's book had a very, very comical description of trying.

To evolve that mechanism. Well, thank you, Tyler, you're also getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today by Pastor Doug Van Dorn, and thank you for participating in the broadcast today.

We have Harrison from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, saying that, have you heard of the incubus and succubus who are allegedly demonic creatures that can have sex with human beings? If what you are saying is true about these creatures in the book of Genesis, why couldn't this be a reality today and not scoffed at by Christians?

Do you have any comment on that at all? I don't know if you've ever done any investigation on.

The incubus and succubus. Oh yeah, I have. I like all things that are weird.

Okay.

We can go backwards from the book, is three chapters dealing with how, to me, what I try to do is I try to tell two seeds. It goes back to Genesis 3, 15, and it says that the woman will have a seed, the serpent will have a seed, and so you can take that in a couple different ways.

Jesus takes it figuratively when he calls the Pharisees, the, you know, your father is the devil. He's not talking. Genesis 6, the idea that there is a fallen group of heavenly beings that are, the seed is always involved, the seed with David, the seed with Abraham, the seed with Noah.

So anyway, you go all the way to the New Testament, shot any giants, and that's where you have to understand one other thing about the early church, and this was also a universal view, you find it, and I believe you actually find, that you find it in the Bible, for a Nephilim.

You find this in Genesis 14, what I called it, and you find it in Deuteronomy 2 and 3, where they're chronicling these giant beings that were cast out of the land by the Moabites and and Ammonites and so on.

So Rephaim becomes a word that is used for a creature that's in a healer, but you have the, the idea is that you have these Rephaim, something out of Dante. So the view in the, was that when his spirit didn't come, these become the demons, it might be more related to a demon.

So in other words, you're saying that these are.

Real demons that we should believe exist, that these demons that have sexual, physical sexual intercourse with men and women, the incubus is the one that allegedly has relations with, with men, and the succubus, I'm sorry, with women, and the succubus is the one that has sex with.

Yeah, so we need to be careful here. One of the things that people get wrong, people think that demons are fallen angels, and in the early view, that's not what they are. The demons are the dead, nestling, real creature, and I think it could be, and it's, you know, you would find it with the sons of God, because demons are not embodied creatures, they're disembodied.

And so, you know, they're able to do that. I mean, they might be able to manifest some physical things, but it's not like an embodied sort of a rape or something.

And well, thank you very much, Harrison, and you are getting a copy of the book, The Unseen Realm, which is the second book that we're addressing today by Doug Van Dorn, and we thank you very much for asking the question, and keep listening and keep writing.

And one of the things that has come up between even my co-host Buzz and I, which I don't want to tick us off on too far of a tangent, but I have for the first time in my life begun to hear that Lucifer and Satan are not necessarily the same entity.

Where do you stand on that?

Oh, that's a really interesting question. It's definitely related to this. So let me answer it this way. You go to an animal, a snake, and maybe some people even believe it had feet or something like that, and it lost its feet.

And that Satan, like a demon, and demons possess, by nature has a body. And so the word that's used there is shining one. If you go to the word there for the serpent, it uses the word, and they use it interchangeably.

So it'll say, God told him to make an ahash, and so they're called serpents, but the idea is, there seems to be something else going on here besides just a shining one, a shining being. So then you come to where we get the word Lucifer from 14, and that Lucifer is a Latin translation, a shining one, son of the dawn.

And so you get this idea of shining again, where you get in the Garden of Eden. So the question is, is it definitely being taken? So you actually get the angel of the Lord being called, but he's acting as an angel, is referring to a woman.

You find differing opinions on it in the ancient literature.

Well, yeah, see, this is something that has just surfaced recently in my attention for the first time in my life, where Reverend Buzz may have been the first one to question that they are the same. I don't mean the first one in existence.

I mean, the first person I know.

That questioned. Well, just to let you know, to play the devil's advocate here, or something like that, adversary. But the thing I pointed out was, it just seemed to me that this whole teaching that seems very prevalent on the fact that Satan is fallen Lucifer, has very scanty biblical.

Evidence to build a whole theological structure on it. Yeah, I mean, there's Isaiah 14, one of them, another one is Ezekiel 28. Right, exactly. And that's a really interesting one, because you've got this, it's called the Guardian Cherub, and it's talking about the Garden of Eden, and he's walking around there in the ancient mind, actually.

And this kind of gets into the other book, the Unseen, which deals more with the sons of God than it does with the beginning of Ezekiel 28, talks about this place, the seed of the gods. It seems what's going on there is that the Garden of Eden is acting like between heaven and earth, and so you just naturally find humans, and you find angels that are intersecting with one another there.