July 8, 2016 Show with Douglas Van Dorn on “Giants: Sons of the Gods”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on

the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday on this

eighth day of July 2016, and I'm very excited about this program today.

We are going to be dealing with a subject that I have never dealt with, at least as a full program,

on Iron Sharpens Iron ever since we very first launched in 2006, and

I'm going to read a description of our topic today right from the way that this book is described

because it perfectly sets up our interview for us.

Goliath, you know the story, but why is it in the Bible?

Is it just to give us a little moral pick -me -up as we seek to emulate a small shepherd boy who

defeated a giant?

Have you ever wondered where Goliath came from?

Did you know that he had brothers, one with 24 fingers and toes?

Did you know their ancestry is steeped in unimaginable horror?

Genesis 6, the Nephilim.

The first few verses of this chapter have long been the speculation of supernatural events that

produced demigods and a flood that God used to destroy the whole world.

The whole world remembers them.

Once upon a time all Christians knew them, but for many centuries this view was mocked,

though it was the only known view at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

Today it is making a resurgence among Bible -believing scholars and for a good reason.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also afterward.

This book delves deep into the dark and ancient recesses of our past to bring you rich

treasures long buried.

It is a carefully researched, heavily footnoted, and selectively illustrated story of the

giants of the Bible.

There is more here than meets the eye, much more.

Here you will learn the invisible supernatural storyline of the Bible that is always just

beneath the surface, lurking like the spawn of the ancient Leviathan.

It is a storyline no person can afford to ignore any longer.

Unlike other more sensational books on the topic, there is no undue speculation to be

found here.

The author is a Bible -believing Christian who refuses to use such ideas to tell you the

end of the world is drawing nigh.

Once you discover the truth about these fantastic creatures, you will come to see the ministry and work of

Jesus Christ in a very new and exalting light.

Come learn the fascinating, sobering, yet true story of the real giants who played

a significant role in the Bible and still to this day.

And we are speaking of the book, Giants, Sons of the Gods, by Douglas

Van Dorn, pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado.

Douglas Van Dorn received his Master of Divinity at Denver Seminary, and he is the

author of Waters of Creation, a biblical theology of baptism.

Galatians, A Supernatural Justification, and the book we are discussing today, Giants, Sons of the Gods.

He has also written Covenant Theology, a Reformed Baptist primer.

From the Shadows to the Savior, Christ in the Old Testament, and the Unseen Realm,

Q &A companion.

He has pastored the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado since 2002, and he co

-hosted the radio show, Journey's End, from 2011 to 2012.

He served at one time on the Administrative Council of the Association of Reformed Baptist

Churches of America, also known as ARPCA, and is presently working on the ground floor of

starting up the Reformed Baptist Network.

He has been married to his wife, Janelle, since 1994.

They have four girls, and he has climbed all 54 of

Colorado's 14 ,000 -foot mountains, and also Mount Rainier

in Washington, and Mount Shasta in California.

Well, according to that statistic, I've only climbed one more mountain than he has.

Just kidding.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Douglas

Van Dorn.

Thanks for having me on, Chris.

It's great to have you on, and it's great to be able to discuss with you this

exciting and fascinating subject, Giants, Sons of the Gods, for the very first time.

Not only are you a first -time guest, but you're addressing a first -time subject on this broadcast.

And let me introduce to you, on air, my co -host as of late, the Reverend Buzz

Taylor.

Greet our guest, Buzz.

Greetings, indeed.

I am looking forward to a very interesting talk today.

And if you...

Have fun, Buzz.

Yes, and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Doug Van Dorn,

you can email us at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live

outside of the good old USA.

And this subject that we are addressing today is largely based on texts

found in Genesis 6, verses 1 through 4.

Let me just read those verses for you.

Now, it came about when men began to multiply in the face of the land, and daughters were born to them,

that the sons of God saw the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took

wives for themselves, whomever they chose.

Then the Lord said, My spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is

flesh.

Nevertheless, his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of

God came into the daughters of men, and they bore children to them.

Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Quite a fascinating text of scripture that has people arguing

and debating over what exactly those verses mean, and other verses as well in the scripture

that relate to those texts.

And you could have people, as I've been saying lately, we've been dealing with a lot of issues in Iron Shepherds Iron, that not only

do people in the same denomination often disagree upon, you have people in the same congregation disagreeing, and

maybe even the same pew disagreeing as to their meaning, and we'll

be getting into that subject as deeply as we can within a two -hour time frame

today.

And first of all, let me ask you, Doug, what was the first

catalyst in your study of the scriptures or in your life that made you say, I've got to really study

this in further depth?

Because it seems that whenever issues like this come up, you'll have a lot of pastors or even scholars

say, we really don't know what that was, it's not really that important, it's not really relative to the church in the

third millennium, as we have all these other issues that are far more important facing

us with Islam taking over the world step -by -step and filling

us globally with terror as they perform so many

atrocious acts of terrorism, and there's men marrying men, and women marrying women,

and homosexuals adopting children, there's all kinds of things that we're facing, and a lot of people

just will fluff things like this off as something we're never going to know exactly what that means, so

let's not really waste our time on it.

I, of course, am doing a two -hour interview with you on this, so I differ greatly

on that view of just sweeping something like this under the carpet.

What made you say, I've got to study this deeply,.

And eventually you said, I'm going to write a book on this?

Yeah, well, the first thing that comes to my mind is the examples you

gave, and Islam

actually did

the giants, so maybe we could get into that at some point, I don't know, but

to answer your question there about lifelong

just fascination with in pre -flood sort of stuff, and

so I've read all sorts of crazy, crazy things.

I happen to be writing a book on baptism several years ago, it was right after I got my, it was right as I was getting

my MDiv at Denverson, I couldn't do it,

so I was writing,

thinking about some stuff Greg Beal would come out with in a year

or two after that on the temple, and it's kind

of a strange

thinking about Beal into writing about the Garden of Eden as

a temple, and those kinds of

things seem

to be an exodus,

eight or nine years ago now,

also kind of

not, and I see

in 2001, and the title was Deuteronomy 32,

and this

is like a 40, 50,

32, 8, where if you go and read the

ESV, it

was completely fascinated by this, and he doesn't talk

about it,

and didn't think about it for about three months, and then I was doing some research, a guy

on the internet that sounded an awful lot like the guy I had read in this article, turns

out it's the exact same guy, and I just, it turns

out that, and he

did his PhD

studies in something called the Divine Council, which

is the heavenly beings that help, and you'll read about this in

like Meredith Klein talking,

you're right, grounded in the scripture, and reading

more of Heisman, I

said all right, I really have to start thinking about this,

so mine just out came that book.

Well I'm glad you did, and let's not forget Meredith Klein, one of the great women heroes of the

faith, I'm just kidding, I say the same thing about Lorraine Bettner, but anyway,

and Kim Riddle Barter, but

well, you brought up something interesting, because it seems that as

much as I love and cherish and treasure my Reformed

theology and my Reformed heroes, both past and present, and most

of my books are by Reformed authors, most of the books I own and have read, in

fact, almost every Arminian pastor I've ever met, even when

they are anti -Calvinist, when I look in their libraries, the vast majority of the books they have

are written by Calvinists, and some of them don't even realize that, but having said that, it seems that

our Reformed brethren shy away from things like this, they shy away from talking about it.

I recently had a program on the demonic realm and demon possession,

and I interviewed a Missouri Synod Lutheran minister and a missiologist

who has had quite a bit of experience studying this in South America and other places, and

it seems that a lot of our Calvinist brethren shy.

Away from it.

What do you think the reason for that is?

Oh boy, I've talked with several friends about that very question for many hours.

I think, so

kind of that

was the trajectory of the Reformation early on, and you know, so

maybe guys just, that you just kind of take the Augustine view

of,

and it's just marriage between, so it could just be as simple

as that.

I think there's another explanation, which is that I just really think, and I've been

in this world now for, you know, eight or nine years, that there is a whole world

view of the supernatural that the Bible gives to us, and the giants are the

world view, and you don't have the

world view, so you're kind of like the people that

do talk, so you end up with some pretty

strange things when they're.

Talking about demons and so on.

Yeah, what I said to my Lutheran guest recently was that I think that, at least with my Calvinist brethren,

I know for a fact that Calvinists, and remember, I am one folk, so I'm not bashing some group of people that I don't

have an affiliation with, Calvinists are terrified of guilt by association,

and they really don't want to be, you know, lumped together with some of the fringe

Pentecostal and charismatic teachers and preachers and authors who have all kinds of sensationalistic things

to say, and it seems like they just would rather not even address those things, but I just want, before, I think Buzz wants to ask

a question, but I just wanted to clarify something.

I don't know what edition of the New American Standard Bible you read that text

in, but the one that I read from is a NASB reference, and it uses

Sons of God.

Now, is that in Deuteronomy 32 .8?

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm talking about Genesis 6, 1 through 4.

Yeah,.

Genesis 6, it's consistently the Sons of God, but in Deuteronomy 32 .8, Heiser actually

calls it the Deuteronomy 32 world view, that's how important that chapter is.

Okay, now we've all...

So that's the variant, yeah.

I think we've all had an experience.

Before where we have learned a particular thing, and we look at the scriptures, and it's like, I'm

not so sure about that, but yet, and of course, adding to the list of not wanting to be

guilty by association, I appreciate what you said in your book also, that

almost all the time, this is tied into end time scenarios, and they lose me right away, but on the other hand,

I can recall many times looking at the traditional view, thinking, well, you know, well, R .C. Sproul once said, if

you come up with something that's been, you know, missed for 2 ,000 years of church history,

chances are your interpretation is wrong, but yet, you point out that this has not escaped

2 ,000 years of the church's knowledge, it's just,.

Our heroes didn't get it.

Yeah, I mean, it's even more than that, I think.

I make the point in the introduction of

the Acts of Jesus, the giant view,

the only view, and among Jews and

Christians, we have this

view, so there isn't a

Sethite view until really you get

longer than.

America has been a country.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I think everybody's waiting with bated breath in the audience as to what your view is, because I don't think you detailed it.

I was going to say,.

We better start, you've got four different views that are predominant that we probably need to.

Understand before we get into the subject.

Yes, good idea, good idea.

Yeah, go through the major.

Views and tell us what your view is.

Okay, so I would really say that there's really only two major views, and to put them simply, there's a

supernatural, sons of God are heavenly beings,

and that's the older view, held by all the earliest out of

the second, and that

what's going on in Genesis, the book of Ezra, where

non -Jews are getting in trouble for

it.

Now, there's another view, the view that actually

Meredith Klein has, and

they're children like

demigods, or you could believe that in the natural view, because all that view is saying is that

these men of renown were

these

dynastic

kings.

So these, you believe that the sons of God,.

These giants, were angelic beings.

Were they fallen angelic beings?

Were they angelic beings within the graces of God and His pleasure, or were they

enemies of God?

Where do you fit in that puzzle?

Okay, so there's, let me clarify one point.

So in Genesis 6, and

that view, and for lack of a better word, I don't like the word,

you have the daughters of men would be, you know, human women, and then the Nephilim, and a lot of people get this confused.

The Nephilim, I see, I

see.

Okay, so

when did they fall, the only

being that was in the Garden of Eden, and called

Satan, you know, when did he fall?

I kind of take the view that he actually, and that there's,

you know,

that's one question,

but certainly at the

time that it would be.

And we do have, you already

answered it to a degree,.

The question that our friend, our listener, John in Phoenix, Arizona, has, but if you want to expand

on it, John in Phoenix, Arizona, says, my question for Mr. Dorn,

Van Dorn it should be, is this, is this, where did the interpretation for

Genesis 6 that the sons of God were angels.

Come from?

Oh boy, it comes before the New Testament was written.

It seems to come from

between Malachi and the New Testament, and one of the, one of the main

reasons why I actually hold this view is because I'm convinced that Jude and

2nd Peter are writing in that tradition,

when they start talking,

writing the

book of Enoch, first citing it positively,

he's actually alluding

at one time.

They're all positive allusions,

and I agree that Enoch is telling

he doesn't believe the main point of

the, it's very deceptive for him to be, you know, affirming everything about it, but

really I don't believe the giants, and when you go in and

read that book and said that,

included in the canon is because it was

so old we couldn't trust it.

And so, I mean, I would never argue that Enoch should be in the, telling this story of

the giants in the 1st, 3rd Union

quoted by S. I. Juden.

And we also have a

listener in Clinton Township,.

Michigan, Jeff, who says, where did the giants come from in

Numbers 13 if the flood destroyed the DNA of these creatures?

I read the Omega Conspiracy by D.

E. Thomas, but his use of extra -biblical writings to make his case disqualified him

in my mind.

Thank you all.

Maybe one of the people on the ark carried the genetic information,

his wife probably.

I don't know

if that's

true or not.

Then another group of

them at

the end, so

there

may actually be biblical reason to believe this, believe it or not, from 1st Corinthians 11,

bunny trail, but,

and it's kind of very

similar.

I think Bill Cosby also had a view on that.

How long can you tread.

Water?

A good memory.

And we have to go to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own,

our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

We already have a couple of people waiting patiently to have their questions asked and answered.

And by the way, to our first two listeners already, you are getting,

or I should say our first two listeners that sent in questions, you are getting a free copy of this book each,

compliments of our guest, so you have to re -email me your full

mailing addresses so I can have those books shipped out to you as soon as possible.

And once again, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we thank

our guest for supplying those free books of his to give away today to our listeners, and obviously we have

a limited supply, so I don't know if we're going to be able to give all of you a free copy, but we'll

get to as many as we can.

And we're going to be going to a break right now, and we hope that you stay tuned, and we'll be

right back with Doug Van Dorn and our discussion of The Giants, The Sons of the Gods.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Pastor Douglas Van Dorn.

And we are discussing one of his books today, Giants, Sons of the Gods.

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

We have a question from Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, and she

asks, if it is clear from the New Testament that angels cannot

procreate, there is neither male nor female in the angelic realm, how could these

creatures have been.

Angels since they procreated?

I'm sorry, Chris, you broke up there at the very end.

Really?

Okay,.

I'm sorry about that.

Basically, the guest, or should I say the listener, Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania,

wants to know how these creatures could have procreated if the Bible says angels.

Don't do that.

Actually, Dr. James Boyce from 10th Presbyterian has a series on Genesis,

and he deals with that question very well, I think.

She procreate, he says that they don't.

And he's not talking about fallen angels, he's talking about the angels that are in heaven.

So I think that, you know, I get that question a lot, and I just think that it's a misreading.

Of what Jesus is saying.

Okay.

Well, Susan, you're also getting a free copy of the book, so you could learn more about this subject

if you give us your full mailing address, and that's Giants, Sons of the Gods.

Thank you very much for writing today.

This is an issue that some of our

brethren who may be embarrassed by what we're talking about today,

some of our brethren who are in these academic circles who are even embarrassed by young earth

creationists, they think that we are single

-handedly thwarting the spread of the gospel because we are mixing

an unproven teaching that the earth is very, very old

with the gospel, and therefore, since scientists are in unison dismissing

an old earth, I'm sorry, a young earth, I mixed that up there for a second, since

scientists are in unison dismissing a young earth, that we are basically

embarrassing the church, and we are the cause of the more deep -thinking person rejecting the

gospel.

How do you respond to that kind of thing?

I mean, have you heard this before?

I mean, I don't know if I'm the only one bringing it up, but I've...

Yeah, I mean,.

Yeah, I've certainly heard that with what

Bill Nye was doing with Ken Ham, right?

So, as far as the giants go, I mean,

it kind of begs

the question.

Well, I would agree with you.

I'm.

Just saying that there are those that try to give us a hard time about that, and it's unfortunate

because I think that that kind of thinking that would be opposed to a serious

study of these being real historic creatures as you've described them,

an out -and -out rejection of that kind of thing is usually a doorway into liberalism because you're just gonna start denying a

whole lot of things that the scriptures, the God -breathed, inerrant scriptures have taught us.

Yeah.

Well, we have very sufficient biblical evidence, at least we have to admit, for the existence of

these creatures because we get into exact sizes and things in the book of Deuteronomy and so

forth.

Could you tell us a little bit about the evidence we see for giants in the scriptures?

Yeah, that's really...

My book is trying to be a biblical theology of giants, so it takes us from Genesis all the way to the end.

And, you know, believe it or not, there's an awful lot that's there.

People just...

What I like to do is I like to

say, you know, you already believe in giants because you believe that Goliath, and you believe that he

fought against David, right?

And David killed him, and Goliath,

and they turned it into, you know, slaying all the giants, and

he's actually a literal giant right there, fighting...

David's fighting.

So when people can kind of grasp it, yeah, I guess I do already believe in giants, don't I?

Then you start, sure enough, when you start reading even

about Goliath himself, it gives you a genealogy and it says that he's one of the

and it gives...

There's that better

mention, kind of right together

at the end of one of the books of Solomon.

It's very close

to unique features about him,

and it just kind of talks it like.

It's an ordinary thing.

Yeah, so in other words, if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture, you can't say this is allegorical or

anything like that.

Yeah, I mean, Goliath was a real person.

Well, I've heard people try to explain Goliath away by saying he's had a particular pituitary problem,

and he was, therefore, he had bad eyesight and all the stuff because he was a mutation.

Sure, you say the mutation, how

are we going to know that?

We do have a listener in Mastic.

Beach, Long Island,.

Tyler, who asks, are the mentions of the behemoths in the Bible taken as

Paleolithic creatures, such as dinosaurs, by most Christians?

Is it a common conclusion to.

The layperson?

Well, behemoth is not a person.

He's some sort of an animal or a creature.

Right, right.

He's kind of related, but kind of not.

Right, you said that they were Paleolithic creatures, such as the dinosaurs.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, but obviously you are saying that they are references to dinosaurs then.

I know that some folks have said they were hippopotamus and other kinds of animals.

They try to dismiss the prehistoric, quote -unquote, animals that

are often claimed by Old Earth folk or by non -Christians as

predating the human race, but obviously we as Christians do not

believe that the dinosaurs necessarily

predated human.

Beings, but anyway.

Yeah, I mean, Leviathan and behemoth are kind of the two characters there,

and Leviathan's a really interesting one because he actually is kind of a mythical figure, and he's used that way in the

scripture, but also he seems to be, you know, in

your reading, we don't,

a hyena, and so that's a hyena at the

same time, and same sort of a deal, like that's Leviathan.

I guess a lot of people raise their eyebrows, especially because of the fire -breathing description

and that kind of thing, but as even I've seen in the past, Ken Ham

brought up, bring up in a conference, or one of his scientists that was on a panel, there are even insects

that can shoot flames out of themselves today.

Yeah, the bombardier beetle, I remember.

Yeah, yeah,.

There you go, there you go.

Dwayne Gish's book had a very, very comical description of trying.

To evolve that mechanism.

Well, thank you, Tyler, you're also getting a free copy of the book that we are discussing today by Pastor

Doug Van Dorn, and thank you for participating in the broadcast today.

We have Harrison from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania,

saying that, have you heard of the incubus and succubus who

are allegedly demonic creatures that can have sex with human beings?

If what you are saying is true about these creatures in the

book of Genesis, why couldn't this be a reality today and not scoffed at

by Christians?

Do you have any comment on that at all?

I don't know if you've ever done any investigation on.

The incubus and succubus.

Oh yeah, I have.

I like all things that are weird.

Okay.

We can go backwards from the book, is three

chapters dealing with how, to me, what I try to do is I

try to tell two seeds.

It goes back to Genesis 3, 15, and it says that

the woman will have a seed, the

serpent will have a seed, and so you can take that in a couple different ways.

Jesus takes it figuratively when he calls the Pharisees, the, you know, your

father is the devil.

He's not talking.

Genesis 6, the idea that there is a

fallen group of heavenly beings that are, the

seed is always involved, the seed

with David, the seed with Abraham, the seed with Noah.

So anyway, you go all the way to the New Testament, shot any giants, and

that's where you have to understand one other thing about the early church, and this was also a universal view,

you find it, and I believe you actually find, that you find it in the Bible,

for a Nephilim.

You find this in Genesis 14, what I called it, and you find

it in Deuteronomy 2 and 3, where they're chronicling these giant

beings that were cast out of the land by the Moabites and and Ammonites and so on.

So Rephaim becomes a word that is used for a creature

that's in a

healer, but you have the, the idea is that you have these

Rephaim, something out of Dante.

So the view in the,

was that when his spirit

didn't come, these become the demons,

it might be more related to

a demon.

So in other words, you're saying that these are.

Real demons that we should believe exist, that these demons that have sexual, physical sexual intercourse

with men and women, the incubus is the one that

allegedly has relations with, with men, and the succubus, I'm sorry,

with women, and the succubus is the one that has sex with.

Yeah, so we need to be careful here.

One of the things that people get wrong,

people think that demons are fallen angels, and in the early view, that's not what they are.

The demons are the

dead, nestling,

real creature, and I think it could be, and it's, you know,

you would find it with the sons of God, because demons are not embodied creatures, they're

disembodied.

And so, you know, they're able to do that.

I mean, they might be able to manifest some physical things, but

it's not like an embodied sort of a rape or something.

And well, thank you very much, Harrison, and you are getting a copy of the

book, The Unseen Realm, which is the second book that we're addressing today by Doug

Van Dorn, and we thank you very much for asking the question, and keep listening and keep writing.

And one of the things that has come up between even my

co -host Buzz and I, which I don't want to tick us off on too far of a

tangent, but I have for the first time in my life begun to hear that

Lucifer and Satan are not necessarily the same entity.

Where do you stand on that?

Oh, that's a really interesting question.

It's definitely related to this.

So let me answer it this way.

You go to an

animal, a snake, and maybe some people even believe it had feet or something like that,

and it lost its feet.

And that Satan, like a demon, and demons possess,

by nature has a body.

And so the word that's used

there is shining one.

If you go

to the word there for the serpent, it uses the word,

and they use it

interchangeably.

So it'll say, God told him to make an ahash,

and so they're called serpents, but the idea is, there seems to be something

else going on here besides just a shining one, a shining

being.

So then you come to where we get the word Lucifer from 14, and that

Lucifer is a Latin translation,

a shining one, son

of the dawn.

And so you get this idea of shining again, where you get in the Garden of Eden.

So the question is, is

it definitely being

taken?

So you actually get the angel of the Lord being called, but he's

acting as an angel, is

referring to a woman.

You find differing opinions on it in the ancient literature.

Well, yeah, see, this is something that has just surfaced recently in

my attention for the first time in my life, where Reverend Buzz may have been

the first one to question that they are the same.

I don't mean the first one in existence.

I mean, the first person I know.

That questioned.

Well, just to let you know, to play the devil's advocate here, or

something like that, adversary.

But the thing I pointed out was, it just seemed to me that this whole teaching that seems very prevalent on

the fact that Satan is fallen Lucifer, has very scanty biblical.

Evidence to build a whole theological structure on it.

Yeah, I mean, there's Isaiah 14, one of

them, another one is Ezekiel 28.

Right, exactly.

And that's a really interesting one, because you've got this, it's called the Guardian Cherub, and it's talking about

the Garden of Eden, and he's walking around there in the

ancient mind, actually.

And this kind of gets into the other book, the Unseen,

which deals more with the sons of God than it

does with the beginning of Ezekiel 28, talks about this

place, the seed of the gods.

It seems what's going on there is that the Garden of Eden is acting like

between heaven and earth, and so you just naturally find humans, and you find angels

that are intersecting with one another there.

That seems to be what's going on to recreate the Garden of Eden, but they're not doing

it quite like anybody else.

And we actually.

Are going to a break right now, and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question regarding this

very fascinating topic, giants, the sons of the gods, and

anything that is in connection with the unseen spirit world and so

on, give us an email.

We'd love to hear from you, and we do have a couple of people patiently waiting to have their questions asked and answered already.

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sponsor CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who was kind enough to ship out all of our

winners' books whenever we have them, which is nearly daily, they have

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And we do have quite a number of listeners in the UK and Canada and other places, so we just extend to

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But we still want to hear from you.

We would still love to hear a question from you, and as we just did the other day, from

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Don't go away, we're going to be right back after these messages with Doug Van Dorn.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today is for the full two hours is Pastor Doug Van Dorn.

We're discussing largely today his book, Giants the Sons of the

Gods.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnzen at

gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

And if you could provide for us your first name, your city and state, and

your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And as far as a technical issue with the sound that seems to have developed,

I'm not sure how we can resolve it right now.

But Doug, do you hear us okay right now or is it still going on this technical issue?

Um yeah, I'm hearing you right now.

I'm getting some garbled sometimes.

Right now you hear yourself echo?

Right.

I have no idea why that's happening because right on our side everything seems to sound crystal clear.

Sounds fine to me.

Yeah, I apologize.

I hope you can live with it brother because I'm not sure why.

I can live with it.

Okay.

And we do have a listener.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who asks, I

hope this is not too far off topic, but have you ever heard of two seed in the

spirit predestinarians?

A very tiny sect that has almost vanished from American soil but at one time

was a lot more prevalent and I believe the teaching was that the elect are the

seed of God and the non -elect are the seed of Satan.

Where do you stand on this if you know anything about that?

I've never heard of that.

These TV guys and the

idea there is that in the Garden of Eden had relations with Eve and

King trying to take Genesis 6 back to the Garden of

Eden.

And you can't do that biblically because it's very specific.

It says that Adam or King, if

anything.

Yeah, I think that's one of the teachers that you're speaking of is the host of the Shepherd's Chapel.

Am I right on that?

Yeah, that's the guy.

And I think he is also, well he's no longer with us on this earth.

He's deceased but he I believe was also from what I understand it was

a racist of some kind.

A lot of people use Cain and that kind of a thing to be racist.

Yeah, that's right.

Now, in regard to practical theology and we as Christians

battling the world and the flesh and the devil today, what do you think the

knowledge of these things can assist us with here in the 21st century?

Well, there's a lot of directions.

One of the big questions is goodness.

And that's

something they used to

justify not believing in him.

That's definitely one of those questions.

And when you understand that from

the beginning to the end of the Bible, what you start to do and

we just kind of take when Moses is told he

has to go to Edom.

These are all basically from Esau and Lot.

You know, what's interesting is God said anything

to them.

I will not let you touch them.

And yet we know how wicked these people were.

They come into the land that we see that God says, these are the people that you are to

and then it gives these lists.

And these lists of names are the very same lists of names that you find in the giant wars in

Genesis 14 and

in the land.

And remember they give this

report.

And the report is that we saw the sons of Anak there.

These are the Nephilim and the land devours the people.

Well, a lot of people go, well, they're just lying to Moses.

And I think, no, that's not what's going on.

What's going on is that these are giants.

These are a worldview.

These are an abomination to God because it's the crossing over of species between angel and men.

God says, you're not supposed to do that.

Jude's very domain

be obliterated because this is the destroying of the kind that we find in Genesis chapter one.

And then again, in Genesis chapter,

you know, that, that question, why would he do that?

He's not, you're not telling him to exterminate the human beings.

Tell him to exterminate the giants from the land.

And he had already done that very thing with the Moabites and the Edomites in Deuteronomy two and three,.

Where they exterminated the giants.

By the way, Arnie in Perry County, you're getting a free copy of the book, The

Unseen Realm by our guest today.

So thank you very much for writing in.

Very interesting question.

And our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We have BB in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who wants to know,

as I understand it from the Bible, the children of Adam are the

ones out of which God has saved his elect.

Does that mean that any of those who might be living today that are

the, from the genetic line of these creatures could not possibly be

saved by the blood of Christ?

That's a, that's a really good, my best answer

through Edom and Moab and

Ammon and the two

kings of the land.

And one of them is clearly a giant.

The other one probably is, they seem to be related.

And he basically says, let my people go through and I won't, I won't, I won't let anything harm you.

You know, you'll be all right.

And that, that's, that's, that's God showing mercy and probably even grace

to in the line of the

giant.

So, you know, these, these people definitely are

more.

So I tend to think, yeah, they could be saved.

So then in other words,.

So then in other words, the NBA can have a collective sigh of relief.

Well, now that brings up another issue though, that I want to ask about, because I've seen some of the things on this subject that do

border on the loony and the eschatological and all that stuff.

But what about skeletal remains and things like that?

Do we have the evidence?

Of course, one of the things I watch a lot of things on YouTube and I try to take everything with a

like a huge skulls and tall people and stuff.

Why couldn't that be true?

Well, this is my first gut reaction is it's not, but on the other hand, I want to allow for the fact

that maybe it is.

And that this explains it.

In fact, I saw a documentary on National Geographic where there was a discussion of, they were looking for in

Scandinavia, skeletal remains of a giant that had long been a

part of the legend of the community, but I don't think that they ever were able to find the skeleton.

But anyway, your comment.

Yeah, I have an antithesis at the end.

It's kind of was more just for fun, but it addresses

this as if we

do find anomalous things, anomalous bones, let's say they label it as

Neanderthal or that it's not actually methylene.

Right.

It's really tough.

So if you go back and you look at newspaper reports from let's

say 1750 to 1925 in the United States, you literally find

thousands of them, literally thousands of reports from all 50 states of these bones that were dug up in

there anywhere between eight and 12 feet.

And you find these printed in the New York Times just,

and they're talking about

bones, New England and Ohio

was dug up

in it.

And I think it was the Minnesota Historical Society Almanac or some

association over and talk to him.

And I said, if you found a report like this in your, that you

guys published from 19, you know,

because it's not like it's some sort of a weekly world news or something like that.

It's not, it's sensational journalism.

It's guys that are going in and doing archeology and they've got, you know,

medical digging up these, you know,

giant people.

The problem is that

the bones seem to all

vanish.

Well, you actually stole the thunder of our next.

Listener's question.

Jonathan in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, providentially just before you started speaking,

sent in the question, is there any truth to the thought that the skeletal remains that the museums have are

kept hidden because of the Bible?

I guess, because they don't want.

The Bible to be proven true.

I mean, I think it's possible.

I like to get on, you know, giantologists for

saying that there's the Smithsonian cover -up, but to me, it can work both ways.

If you have a thousand newspaper articles that are independent and they're found all across, you know, the

country over a course of 200 years, it's pretty, that's a pretty big conspiracy theory to

say that all of them are lying or, you know, trying to do it to raise money for their town or

something like that.

I find that just beyond comprehension.

By the way, Jonathan,.

If you could send us your full mailing address, I just have Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

If you could send me your full mailing address, we'll have the copy of the book, The Unseen

Realm, by our guest Douglas Van Dorn, sent out to you as soon as we have that in

our greedy little hands over here.

And we thank you very much, Jonathan, for participating in today's program.

And again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

So one thing that another questioner got you to reveal,

which we didn't specifically ask you, is, I'm assuming from an answer you gave, is you do

believe that there are people alive today that are from the

lineage of these beasts or these creatures.

I'll remain agnostic on that one.

Okay, I'll let you remain agnostic then.

But you kind of tipped your hat though, you said that you thought that they could be redeemed.

Did you not?

Yeah, in their physical state, I think that it's a hypothetical question.

Now, I take it just hypothetically, and I've had to think about it because I know that I've.

The question and I know a lot of other people.

And we have another listener, we have CJ in

Lindenhurst, Long Island, who wants to know, I hope this isn't too far off topic, but do you believe born

-again believers can be possessed by demons?

Another really, really good question.

I've actually changed my mind on this.

My answer is, yes, I do think that they can be.

Wow.

You know, the typical argument is that the

devil couldn't be in our body because that's the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It goes into, at

least in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is certainly

there, and here's the devil going into the very throne room of God saying, can I do something to

Job?

What exactly is demon possession?

And I'm not saying to you that charismatic or that you find in movies,

I just don't.

I certainly believe that Christians can be

outwardly,

you know, they can be

taught, they can even demonize

characteristics.

As someone who is within the realm of our theological circles, although

he is a dispensationalist, the person who I consider a modern -day hero of sorts is Dr. John

MacArthur, and he was actually said that he was witness to

an exorcism, and obviously Dr. MacArthur is far from being charismatic or from a

fringe group, and he said that it was a young person, and I can't remember if it was a young girl or boy, but had

superhuman strength and was throwing.

People across the room and so on.

Yeah, the idea takes the view that Christians cannot be

possessed at the same time.

In fact, you're only the second.

Reformed person that I ever spoke with that does believe that Christians can be possessed.

The other was an evangelical free pastor I know who is now with the Lord.

He passed away not long ago, but he surprised me when he took that view.

So there's only one of you left now.

Well, there's also only one of us writing on giants.

Actually, that's not true.

I take that back because I did a friend of mine who's a Hollywood movie writer named Brian Gadawa

has an entire fiction series on the exact same thing I'm talking about on the giants,

and he is a Reformed...

Oh, what is his work?

Yeah, so it's called the Chronicles of the Nephilim.

Wow.

Yeah, he does all sorts of radio shows, so if you want to have him on,.

He'd love to do it.

Yeah, you just got my co -host's attention like a dog in a butcher's shop.

I like science fiction and all that.

He's also post -millennial.

I'm also post -millennial, yes.

And really what he's trying to do is he's trying to tell, you know, I tell it in a theological way, and he's trying to do it

in a...

I was going to say his is probably a little bit more entertaining.

Yeah, exactly.

And so we have basically got this information from you that

you believe, unlike many in the more

conservative realm of Christian media and literature, that these

Nephilim were the offspring of a marital union between angelic

beings and human beings.

Right.

That would be the summary of that aspect of what we're discussing.

And so in the realm of

redemption, Christ, as most of us who are Christians teach as far as

his atoning blood, did not die for angels.

He died for human beings.

That's correct, yeah.

And so going back to the subject of the atonement, how

could those folks be included even in those days?

Because even as Christians, we know that even the Old Testament saints were redeemed by the

blood of Christ, even though it physically had not happened yet on this earth.

So how do you fit those into that realm of possibly being.

Among those for whom Christ died?

I'm sorry, you're breaking up a little bit there, Buzz.

Is the question about...

This is Chris, by the way.

Oh, is that Chris?

Sorry, Chris.

Yeah, yeah, don't blame me for that one.

Well, you have something...

I've done anything alike.

Is the question going back to a Nephilim being saved?

Yes.

The hard thing about it is that they are men.

I mean, in terms of...

They're human beings, so an angel

isn't, right?

Right, right.

An angel is a different kind of a creature altogether.

And actually, we have to go to just one final break right now, and if you would like to join us on the air

with a question of your own, write in before we run out of time.

And our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name, city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back with Doug Van Dorn in Giants, the Sons of the Gods.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes or so, our guest has been Douglas Van

Dorn, and we have been discussing his book, Giants,

Sons of the Gods, and also The Unseen Realm, a Q &A

companion, and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and we do have a couple of people waiting patiently, and

we thank you for writing us, but before I return to our discussion, I do want to

plug a couple of events that our sponsors are holding in the very near future.

We have Christ Presbyterian Church, a congregation of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake

City, pastored by Jason Wallace.

He is having a conference, not this weekend, but next weekend, in Salt Lake City,

titled, Who is Jesus Christ?, and this is going to be a conference that features

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, a dear friend of mine for over 25 years, who has been a

guest on this program many times, and who I have organized debates for

since 1995.

Dr. James R. White is going to be starting off this conference on Friday, July

15th at 7pm, by having a dialogue with a Mormon scholar

named Alma Allred, that's Alma Allred, who is an instructor at

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dialogue will take place in the Social and Behavioral Sciences Auditorium at the University of

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And also, on the following day, on Saturday, July 16th at 7pm, Who is Jesus?

is the theme of a public dialogue between Dr. White and a Muslim imam at the

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The website is GospelUtah .org, GospelUtah

.org, that is the website of Christ Presbyterian Church in Salt Lake, and last but not least, the

email address for Pastor Jason Wallace is JasonOPC, standing

for Orthodox Presbyterian Church, at AOL .com.

And last but not least, our friend, Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Chapel

in Denton, Texas, he is participating in a conference in

Maine, Buzz Taylor, my co -host, Old Stomping Grounds, he is going to be a part

of the Fellowship Conference New England, and that is going to be held at the Deering Center

Community Church in Portland, Maine, and there are a number of speakers at this

conference, including Pastor Mac Tomlinson, and the theme is The Impossible, and if

you want more information about this conference, you can go to the website that they have

constructed specifically for the

Fellowship Conference New England .com.

And we really want to thank, from the bottom of our hearts, Pastor Mac Tomlinson, and the folks,

not only with this conference, but at Providence Chapel in Denton, Texas, for being a sponsor

of Iron Sharpens Iron, and helping us to remain on the air.

We thank you from the bottom of our hearts, brethren, and we always look forward to interviewing you,

Pastor Mac, whenever your schedule enables you to.

And before we even continue with the specific subject that we had started off

with, Pastor Doug, I want to make sure that we

let our listeners know more about how they can contact you at your church before

you run out of time, and I forget to give your contact information.

I know that your website is rbcnc .com, for Reformed Baptist Church of Northern

Colorado, rbcnc .com, and

your writing, actually, just as it has with some other talented Christian writers I

know, your writing actually gave birth to your.

Own publishing ministry.

Why don't you tell us about that?

Yeah, I started off right at the.

Beginning of the program.

Did you promise to give a free copy to my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor,.

The Presbyterian?

Nice try.

Hey, Reverend Buzz, this is an argument you've never heard before,.

I guarantee it.

Well, we would love to have it.

We would love to have it.

So, anyway, yeah.

I.

Didn't know there was such a thing.

Well, you'll find out, Buzz.

I wanted to get it out, you know, in some sort of a printed form, and some

company, and I just kept writing,

and the best way to contact us is definitely through our website, rbcnc

.com, and, you know, we've been meeting since 2000.

And is it a

1689 London Baptist Confession Congregation?

It is, yeah.

And.

Some of the other books that you have written, I see, not only your book on baptism, but you have

Galatians, A Supernatural Justification.

Tell us about that book and explain the title.

It came.

Right after in my mind, and I was preaching through Galatians,

and so I do all, I said the supernatural justification is

the big justification, but

from really the beginning to the end of that book, this is

what the giant stuff in terms of the geography of the people

of Galatia, Turkey,.

And so people wanted.

And what other subjects are under the umbrella of the title, The Unseen

Realm Q &A Companion, one of the issues that we are,.

One of the books that we have been touching on today?

Yeah, there's other ones that are definitely related,

question and answer, about, you

know, the various angels, and it goes into

giants and so

on.

Take

the view that the angel of the Lord is

actually the pre -incarnate Christ, and

not, just in terms of angels being heavenly beings, and there being

this, if you read something like Daniel 7, you see that Daniel sees this vision, there's these

thrones, plural, that are up in heaven, and there's these beings that are on these thrones, and they're

getting ready to judge, and then, then you see the Ancient of Days, and then you see the one like the Son

of Man, and so these thrones are occupied by other beings, and

so the angel of the Lord, I think is, you know,

as the major in the

entire Old Testament, and we just, there's a lot of interesting ways to think about

him that most people have not been exposed to, so the book talks about the law, but

then it starts

ideas, you know, tell us,

like the Logos is one of those.

That we know from John 1 .1.

And tell us something about, in summary, your book, Covenant Theology, a Reformed

Baptist Primer.

This is obviously a subject of great controversy and debate, not only

between our Presbyterian brethren and Reformed Baptists, but even amongst Baptists, and

even amongst Calvinistic Baptists.

You have some Calvinistic Baptists who believe the Old Covenant was a temporal and earthly

covenant, and the New Covenant is the one that has eternal promises, and so on.

I don't know where you're coming from on that book.

How do you fall on.

The Covenant Theology book?

I take 1889's

better.

I use some of the

language of like a

creation, why you could refer

to it as any of those, and both of

those add to the angels that we're talking about today in that

book, so there's a connection point.

And then I go through the Old Testament covenants, and kind of the unique contribution for me

is, I actually, most people,

Jeremiah

and Nehemiah and Malachi come down, most

people, very, very important, because I think that Jesus is, and here's

my argument, Buzz, you ready for this?

Jesus is obeying the ordination

sacraments of the Levitical Covenants to be a baptism and a

clothing ceremony.

Well, I want to have you eventually come back on and address all of these books, if you are

interested and willing, and if God is willing, most of all, obviously.

That would be fun.

Great.

And please tell us about your book, From the Shadows to the Savior,

Christ in the Old Testament.

Yeah, that's the title.

Okay.

Well, if anybody would like more information about these books, go to

rbcnc .com, RBC for Reformed Baptist Church, NC for Northern

Colorado dot com, and you can find out how you can order those books written

by our guest, Douglas Van Dorn, and we have been enjoying a

fascinating discussion on all kinds of things that are

supernaturally related and some things that are controversial, all of which are fascinating,

and we do have a listener in Suffolk County, Long Island, Christopher,

who wants to know that in doing some research on demonology, I

have read that some of the Church Fathers believed that

demons are those entities roaming the earth

who will be cast into hell on the last day, but

they have not yet been cast there because the final judgment has not come, and they are

roaming the earth here with us today.

Does that view hold any weight with your guest?

That demons will one day be cast into hell, yeah, certainly.

No, but that they are roaming the earth today.

That they're roaming the earth today, yeah.

Yeah, so the idea of a demon is a dead

Nephilim, it's not a fallen angel, it's a category mistake, and you

actually find this in most ancient

scriptures, just one of those, that the demons are these creatures of

the air, and the New Testament

tells us, you know, when Legion confronts, Jesus confronts Legion, have you, He says, have you come here to

torment us before the appointed time?

And so there's no question that.

They're going to be punished.

Yeah, and I forgot, I actually, I apologize because I left out a couple of very important words from this question,

that they are the disembodied spirits of the damned who are waiting to be cast into hell

on Judgment Day.

Yeah, that's a, that would be, that's a.

Different thing.

Right, right.

That's talking, the disembodied spirits of, I would guess it would probably be, the

damned would be a fine way to talk about it, would be a ghost.

So a ghost and a demon are not the same creatures, and actually there's a, there's a biblical

theology of all of.

This stuff going on in Leviticus and so on.

So are you saying that there is a possibility that ghosts do exist, and that they, you know,

bother people and annoy people?

Yeah, I actually believe.

That that's true.

You know, when there's prohibitions for the dead, I don't think that

God is telling that to Israel because it couldn't happen, I think He's telling it to them because it could happen.

Right.

And they're forbidden when we do seances or any of those kinds

of things, or, you know, we're interacting with their realm, we're crossing.

Giants is the opposite, it's them interacting with our realm, crossing over in a way that they're not supposed

to, and God put these two realms in, and

we belong to this domain, they belong to that domain, and unless He gives them.

Permission...

Right, well of course there is that classic

example of what you're talking about, where Saul has the sorcerer, or

the medium, conjure up Samuel.

Now do you believe that that was really Samuel, or I know that a lot of folks

are just totally baffled as to what to do with.

That story.

Right.

I think they're baffled because they don't have the category for the fact that

crossing over is possible.

It's not that it's not possible, it's that it's forbidden.

Those are different things, and so what was Saul's problem is that he wasn't supposed to go to the

witch of Indore.

The funny part of the story is, you know, she calls up this Elohim and,

well tell me what he looks like, and then she describes him and he's like, oh no, it is Samuel.

Right.

He's completely shocked, and so yeah, I think there's no question that was Samuel.

So it's like, almost like the Whoopi Goldberg character in Ghost, where she was shocked that

actually something worked.

Right.

Now, obviously a lot of what goes on today with these mediums,

who in fact I have a relative who is really enamored with mediums and

has visited mediums, a Roman Catholic relative, who I know

that the Roman Catholic Church officially prohibits that, but you could see the logical leap

from praying to dead people as in the saints and wanting to seek out

the counsel of a medium and have contact with your dead

relatives and.

Loved ones.

Chris, this is scary to hear.

I think I've looked at book eight or book

nine.

Greeks would, they would take these demons and they would,

and it wasn't just the Greeks, but he was just taught the

idea of what an idol is.

An idol isn't a being with its own existence until 3 ,000

years ago, which the idea of an idol is that

it's a spirit being comes and dwells in that house when

you have the right incantation or whatever, and so then it becomes a

kind of a medium where you can control the entity and yet you can get, and so

this is where the idea of in the Old Testament, you're not supposed to deal with idols because

idols are crossing over to form what, you

know, they would call the gods, what I would call like fallen angels, but what's

an exact complement in what

they do with saints, it's exactly the same thing.

Wow, and what I was going to say.

Is that obviously there's a combination of charlatanry going on

today, as there always has been, but what you are saying is that it's not

necessarily always, and there could be some of these mediums that it's never

the right thing, it's always occultic and evil and satanic, but they could actually be conjuring up

departed people, you're saying, who are obviously lying if they're saying everything is wonderful and good.

Yeah, I think actually you find this in that story,.

In other words, this doesn't normally happen even for the Witch of Endor, it's not like she can normally just do this,

and yet all of a sudden here it is, it's like right in front of them, there's a lot of

huckster stuff going on in that whole business, but every once in a while you.

Watch out.

Yes, I have had as a guest on this program a young lady,

Jennifer Nizza Hofacker, who was a guest at the urging of

my former pastor, Mike Gadosh of Solid Ground Christian Books, who sponsors this program, and she

gave quite a convincing story that she believed that these things that were happening to her, she's

renounced them of course, she's a Christian, but she believes that they were real things that were

occurring and that she is still plagued, she said,

unfortunately, not with the frequency that she was when she was involved in it,

but she's still harassed, she said, by what she believes are

demonic spirits and so on, and she had asked a previous

guest how to find remedy in that, other

than the obvious, she does frequently pray and read scripture and so on.

Do you have any other advice,.

Since she had asked that question to a guest not long ago?

I think the right thoughts about

and trust the gospel is that Jesus

has, we get the human side of his victory,

air

and darkness, very important

ramifications,

and his death was a defeat.

It's important that.

We believe that that's true.

I brought this up during my interview with the

Lutheran missiologist who wrote about demon possession and demonology and so on and exorcism,

and I am from Amityville, Long Island, and obviously there's a

connection.

I lived in Amityville my entire life.

Is that house real?

Yes, well, let me put it this way.

The house is a real house in Amityville where Ronald DeFeo, who is

still serving a life sentence in prison, Ronald DeFeo murdered

his parents and all of his siblings, I believe there were five siblings, and one of those

siblings was a classmate of mine and close friend in elementary school, Mark DeFeo,

and he murdered his whole family.

There is speculation that it could have been to just receive an inheritance since he would be the sole remaining

heir.

His father had money and he was a drug addict.

He now claims that his sister, one of his sisters, had murdered

his parents and siblings, and him having a struggle with the gun with her, he killed her

accidentally.

That's what he is saying now, and that wasn't actually his first explanation.

His first explanation was that he was hearing demonic voices telling him.

But the question has been to people that know him from Amityville,

do I think that this was real?

That the house that is there was haunted or whatnot?

Because obviously the Lutzes, George Lutz and his wife, whose first name escapes me, wrote the book, The

Amityville Horror, which became a bestseller and has spawned, I don't know how many sequels and

movies, maybe 20 by now, that have really nothing to do with the original story.

But people have asked me, what do I think of that?

I used to for years say, oh, it's just a bunch of nonsense, it's a hoax.

But after I saw recently a son of George Lutz,

George Lutz and his wife are now deceased, and George Lutz's stepson,

who always despised George Lutz and thought that he was a cruel

stepfather, when he could have, when he for the first time surfaced for an

interview, and he's now an adult and was never agreed to an interview before, he could have

in his anger and hatred toward his stepfather just dismissed the man as a liar.

But he said that even though he despised his stepfather, that these things, these

really bizarre supernatural things were occurring, and he said that he believes it's because

his father, George, was very heavily involved in the cult, and had Ouija boards, and had

all kinds of books on witchcraft and satanic spells and all this.

So, in your opinion, could these manifestations of things flying around and

ooze coming from walls and all that, and voices and all that stuff, could that have

really been,.

After all, real things happening there?

I mean, so I've never experienced anything like this personally, just me thinking about it.

And you heard earlier, this is kind of a

fear that there's a lot of people that are afraid to tell anybody,

because they just, they'll just be, you know, shut down immediately.

And I want us as Christians to be thinking

biblically about these issues, and the only people that you can go to

are kind of kooks that, they don't have any kind of an ability to

talk about it.

I want people to know it's okay to think about

these things.

It's.

Possible that those kinds of things take place.

And again, what would you say that these entities are?

Are they ghosts, or are they demons, or are they both?

Like, for instance, why is it that in the parable of the rich man and

Lazarus, the rich man is in hell?

Now, obviously, many of us believe that there is a waiting place that

is not the final lake of fire that the damned are in, because the final judgment hasn't come, just as

there is some kind of intermediary state before the final

glory we receive in heaven for those of us who are saved.

I don't know what your opinion is on that, but that seems to be a prevalent view amongst.

The foreign people.

Yeah, you have to

take that in, you

know, people that are in Hades,

which

ability to move, I mean, I don't know that you're

gladly not there.

Oh, we do have, Tyler again from Mastic Beach, Long Island wants to know, are you aware

of King James' book on demonology?

I don't know if he means...

No, I'm not.

I don't know if he's referring to the actual King James, of the King James Bible fame, or

maybe you could clarify that before we run out of time, Tyler, but I have not heard of that either.

Sorry about that, we couldn't help you, Tyler.

Well, I want you, since we only have five minutes left, I really want you to unburden your heart and summarize

what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before.

They leave this program.

To me, the giant,

really fun thread to think about, to be honest with you.

Yes, it is.

It's really interesting.

And I want people to know that giants are all over the Bible.

They're just, they're literally all over the

place.

And the main plot of the giant story is defeating

them.

And you

think

about going

into, it's going into

the promised land to

torment people up until at least David's day, but

some of them are left and there's three cities, and one of those cities is Gath, and that's where Goliath comes from.

Yeah.

And so, you know, they're kept in the land and it's because a seed to ease

had not come yet in the old covenants.

And it wasn't until he actually became incarnate as a human being.

You know, angels can have, can take physicality.

They're called, in Hebrew, they're called ish, which is a word for man.

He became a human

being.

And he did that victory

as a man did what Adam was

casting these creatures.

And it's the quest of Joshua.

It's really the same story as Adam in the garden of Eden.

He didn't cast Satan out like he was supposed to.

The Lord Jesus does casting

out demons.

And then he, he dies this, you know,

crucifying the Lord of glory, Paul says, and he's talking about the heavenly being.

He said they never would have done it.

It was hidden from them because it spells their defeat and

their defeat and, and

becoming, and to

me, that's the, that's the eschatology of it.

Where so many guys that write on giants of the future and you don't need

to happen is way

greater.

That's what I want people to.

Very quickly, we'll squeeze in one.

More listener, Jen in Nassau County, Long Island.

In Genesis 3, 14, it says, the Lord said to the serpent, because you have done

this, cursed are you more than all cattle and more than every beast of the field.

On your belly you will go and dust you will eat all the days of your life.

This seems to be confirming the idea of it losing its legs that you seem to dismiss

earlier.

If you can.

Comment on that very quickly.

Sure, that's language.

Heavenly being and being brought

love, you can read it literally, but

Satan as a heavenly being is a literal being, and he was literally there.

I believe he was literally there.

Perhaps looks serpentine, but it's shining, and that's what the word means.

And when he's cast low to the ground, this exact same language you find in Isaiah 14.

I think it's the same language that you find in Ezekiel 28, and I think you also find the language in something like

Obadiah, cast down to the ground,

and it's the language of losing immortality.

Yeah, so my.

View on that.

Well, thank you, Jen, for writing, and you are also getting a free copy of one of our

guest's books.

Thank you so much.

I want to thank you so much, Doug Van Dorn, for being my guest today, and I want to remind our

listeners his website is rbcnc .com, RBC for Reformed Baptist Church, NC

for NorthernColorado .com.

We look forward to having you back very soon, brother.

Thanks, and if people want to get a hold of the book...

Great.

I want all of you to always.

Remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

Have a blessed weekend.