Open Air Theology “Built to Conquer” -Caleb Gordon

What are you doing? You never let us a guard that way you use a wooden match

Preserves the flavor you see but the worst curse would come upon the one who seduced him

Whose head would be crushed? by the seed of the woman and The punishment was too severe

What's wrong with you people are you ready to get back to work with pleasure so senor

Kramer What is this about? Cigars I choose to believe the

Bible because it's a reliable collection of historical documents written down by eyewitnesses during the lifetime of other eyewitnesses

They report to us supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of specific prophecies and claimed that their writings are divine rather than human in origin

But because of his own purpose and grace Which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began

I'm Batman. I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. I Didn't come here to get amens.

I didn't come here to be applauded. I'm talking about you Hello. Hello.

Hello. Welcome to open -air theology It is a great blessing to have you guys jump in and tune in live to this show tonight

I think we have a great show coming on here with Caleb. We'll introduce him here in a moment But not my name is Braden Patterson.

I am the pastor of grace Bible Church in Moorpark, California We meet on Sundays the

Lord's Days at 1030 in the morning So if you live near the area, we'd love to see you tomorrow for our worship

We're so thankful to be a part of I'm so I'm so thankful to be a co -host here at open -air theology along with Tom here

And if you haven't subscribed already go check out YouTube channel open -air theology subscribe to it and on that note

I will pass the mic down to our dear guest tonight Caleb hey guys, how's it going?

Good? How are you man? Excited man Nothing but what church you go to where you from and all that good stuff.

Oh I am I live in Oklahoma But I'm right on the Kansas Oklahoma border and I actually pastor a small little rural

Baptist Church in Cedarville, Kansas which is just just right over the border from me and We've been doing that for five years

Living it live in a town called Bartlesville. It's the home of Phillips 66 Frank Phillips and the petroleum company.

So that's where I'm my home is my I'm not originally from here I'm originally from Wyoming my mom and dad

Lived in Wyoming. My dad was a church planner for the Southern Baptist Convention in Wyoming moved from They lived here in Bartlesville, then he went to seminary with under dr.

Adrian Rogers and then Moved to Wyoming. That's where my brother and I were born and then we came back to Oklahoma to be with grandparents as they

Get we're getting ready to Pass on and I got to as 11 year old boy got to Got the privilege of leading my granddad to the

Lord. I got that as 11 year old boy Wow unbeknownst to me my dad had been every you know going over a night after night

Just pleading with him to repent of his sins and trust the gospel So the seeds were being laid and on a snowy

Sunday morning church was canceled But the cows still needed to be fed and as an 11 year old boy I said grandpa, you know if you're going to heaven or not

And he called he said he called me Caleb with a P he said Caleb I don't know

I said as 11 year old little optimistic 11 year olds like you know you could know right all you got to do is ask

God to forgive you and he totally will and He's like it's that easy. I said absolutely.

It's not easy and he's like, how do I do it? and I just prayed with him as an 11 year old boy, and I Jumped out of the truck.

I said daddy Grandpa got saved in my dad's theological, you know pastor. He's like, oh sure, right?

I've been at the table night after night after night Bleeding with them sure and he gets out tears streaming eyes face.

He's like Jesus saved me. I was like Boom Wow And he he died about four months later

Wow, you know right on time. Yeah God works like that doesn't he? He does pretty wild.

Yeah, that's right. My name is Tom Sheppard and I'm a member of grace Bible Church of Bernie I'm also the co -host of open -air theology and even if none and I go out on the streets with my church members of my church and we go to different cities like Fredericksburg and Bernie in San Antonio and we go all over proclaiming

Christ and him crucified Getting the Word of God out into the streets where the people aren't willing to come into the church

So we'll take the gospel out to them. So it's it's been exciting to do that you guys. I'm sorry about the the

I didn't like the intro without the music listen It didn't sound good.

No do something about that everybody That beginning opener like pumps us up, but that one it's not as good with no music.

Well, we'll get it figured out It was lame Listen, we're getting a whole bunch of copyright issues because we're doing it with different musics

And so I need to see if my friend Aaron I need to tag my friend Aaron in the comments and see if he'll write Tell him to hook us up something with bad pipes or something and you know behind the voices of that, you know to make him

Punk rock what we come up with just anything. Yeah, even Debbie said it was lame. My wife said it was lame

Listen there can be anybody anybody Can say, you know if I'm preaching or something if I sing in or whatever it is, right?

And I get I get done and I get off the interface hugging you. Oh, you did fantastic pastor.

You did great You did great. Your wife gets there. She's like, yeah, wasn't that great? She told you true That's right lame crush your soul,

I think it was Joel Beakey he was he was talking matter of fact He was speaking at the Reformation Conference in Southlake and he was telling that he asked his wife

He goes, well, how'd it go? And she goes well, she goes not everything can be a home run or something like that That's Awesome.

Hey, let me throw in some plugs here real quickly So up in the corners again or even down in the corners, you can see our

YouTube channel open -air theology Please go subscribe to open -air theology on YouTube If you're watching us from striving for eternity as we have 30 viewers right now live

That guy that man, I know I know Andrew Rappaport guy

It's the the thorn and every believer's side Cold plunge himself

Why am I up here? I don't know what happened. I don't know. I didn't click nothing.

I swear I'm sure you did so right behind my camera Wow Look at that fancy tonight.

This is open -air theology guys, and we don't know what we're doing still Go show some love though to striving for eternity.

Seriously right behind this camera. There is a box I have Andrew if you're watching I have not opened it yet, but he called my bluff on the

Our dear beloved great brother in Christ speaking of the thorn in the

Heard someone asked for a thorn in the side and I appeared It's like that.

It's like that pimple on the back of your neck. That won't go away Andrew Rappaport. How are you doing Andrew? Listen it's still in the box.

I get it's in my it's right behind the camera here. I've not Even knows the very first question. I'm gonna ask him

Hey while moose is up, let me throw up some other things real fast So yeah, go check out striving for eternity apologetics live open -air theology

Also, we're really wanting to promote this resist tyrants obey God by Jacob Tanner It is now

I think about either out or it is it is about to be out So go check that out on press stop founders org.

Also Tom Shepard along with Jacob Tanner himself is going to be preaching at grace and truth conference in 2025.

Nice. That is a great thing We also are gonna talk about this here momentarily But we also are wanting to talk about this conference

I know I know two people that is actually here with us right now at this conference. It's gonna be there

Andrew Rappaport and Caleb himself Brothers looking forward to this conference. Go check this out.

If our audience if you haven't seen this go look that also We're on Twitter now.

We are on Twitter. Whoa. Whoa, it's X My fault Twitter's way too liberal

X is way more cool. That's right X go check it out. I thought it was maybe going to be

Chi or something like that but I technically need to go change my graphic on my website because I still have the

Goofy bird the goofy bird. So go check out our Twitter be grateful lesson if you followed us there but the main reason we want you to go check us out there because we just started this is

That dead man walking is doing a little bit of a voting thing going on right now We need you to go on and vote for all three of our podcasts most importantly open -air theology because that's what we're talking about right now then go check out

Caleb's and then go check out Andrew Rappaport's and vote those ones in that order So, wait a minute,

I'm a co -host of open -air of Apologetics live with Andrew Rappaport.

Yeah Caleb you have promote right now. Yeah, Caleb has show yes and Brayden has the open -air theology show with Tom.

Yes, and Tom has apologetics live with me right, and then I have the

Rappaport All of us at the Christian podcast community have the theology throwdown because I host it but there's all of us are on that So that's fantastic.

So we actually have a better chance of winning but more than likely not Yeah Doug Wilson last year and I got 38 % of the votes

Yeah, no kidding I was a win in my book so that was before Doug Wilson even knew he was on yeah, yeah anyone anyone after me and and and took me down like In the

African plane Last year or the moose and behind you killed the moose, you know

So last year, I actually was going against Mike Foster and Beat him because he forfeit

Is that a win though? Yeah. Well, I'm counting Next round I was very

He hasn't even cracked the tape On We set up the cold plunge get the water in it get it chillin because Tom Shepard's going in that cold plunge

I'm gonna do the best I can to be there. I'm gonna try I heard Brandon's outfit

Because I'm telling you right now. I just have a feeling and I'm gonna say this that I Know he pees in pools, so I don't know what he's gonna do

Welcome to open -air theology guys. So Tom Tom says he wants to go first in the cold plunge I've got a hot tub.

You can jump right into after you're done. No Always end on the cold plunge you you go from the hot tub to the hot tub

Yeah, you start with hot end on cold. Yep. You sleep better that way Yeah, so don't you do that waking up in that the whole purpose?

Well, yeah, you'll you actually it's better to do heat at night technically But but I can

I agree with Tom's wife Debbie? Is that allowed on this show? So folks in the audience

Somebody that knows how to do music Can you just create something for Tom that he could play

Tom? Just you just got to tell them how many seconds they need of audio to give you and and somebody

Someone that's musically talented. Yeah, then Tom some background music that he could put behind that that isn't copyrighted something

That's well create on your own and Tom will be happy to let everyone know that you the wonderful work

So what was interesting was is that you know Even the even I used Canva for it had like a little movie thing.

And so Canva, it's supposed to be you know, everybody can use it. Yeah, I can use it.

But even that even that was copyrighted What I think it's so I have a song that is definitely copyrighted, but it still is allowed to play it's just not in certain countries and The majority of my the majority of my stuff is listened to in America Not all of that.

I have some that's in Europe and Africa, but most of it is in America. So Most of our stuff's in Japan That's why yeah good.

I'll be there in May. Wow. Are you really going to Japan? Are you speaking? That I don't know yet.

We'll see we'll find that out Always do some open -air evangelism in Japan on the streets of Tokyo.

They are definitely gonna be different there then Because they're not really

Too much open to that No But I do know that we were that you guys all know that if you watched the open -air theology

Podcast that there was gonna be an open -air theology conference and we all know that that's been canceled

The thing about that is that it was gonna be during the exact same time as the built -to -conquer conference

Well the open -air theology So if you have not attended there were you planned on going to open -air theology and no longer able to go to that conference?

This is the one to go to Rappaport who was speaking at the open -air theology conference is now speaking at the built -to -conquer conference in Oklahoma with Caleb Gordon come on Caleb.

Tell us about this conference. Why did you why did you name it built -to -conquer? Can I just tell you what what the speakers it was

Caleb's turn Andrew I'm gonna leave shortly.

Let you guys talk but but Caleb Caleb was like, hey, can you can you come to a conference?

And I was I said, I got another conference Yeah, I can't be a two -place once within minutes all of a sudden he's got

Gabe on the list Like he just replaced me that quick with Gabe and I was like, okay

I mean, I got I got to get a Presbyterian in here kid grief. All right, fine.

Yeah, but When I told him

I was free he said we'll make it happen So I just want for the record Caleb is is great.

He wants to make the event the best he can We're we're hustling and we're trying to this is our second year to do it.

We did the first year in the historic Constantine theater and Pahuska, Oklahoma.

We were just catty corner from the Pioneer Woman and It was it was pretty cool in that theater.

I have some friends that that run that theater and they gave us a really great Opportunity to use that for that and we had a at about a hundred people or so show up and it was it was a great event and we're just trying to now move it over to Bartlesville and The the good folks at Hope Presbyterian, I'm really good friends with pastor

Peter Johnson. In fact, he's my neighbor He lives just around the corner from me. He and I go walk a lot together and hang out and He puts on a thing called the

Holy Smoke and that's a thing that he does at his house And we go hang out there and it's a great time with the

Christian Brothers and it sounds charismatic. It's so cigar -ish. It's very cigar -ish Sometimes he sometimes pulls the smoker out too, but it's a little bit of both

I'm going Friday night, we've got several folks coming over to my house and we're gonna come hang out.

That's where we're doing this cold plunge thing I don't know. We're gonna have my wife's my wife's actually behind the scenes with my sister -in -law

They're in doing some planning and prepping for some An event we're doing tomorrow night and then one the one on the 21st

Friday night we're gonna have all the speakers that want to come up and hang out with us and just do a fellowship and and Just try to encourage each other.

Maybe tell us some jokes. I don't know, you know anybody that's funny Andrew I'm just funny -looking but You can tell where all of our minds are at you you mentioned

Holy Smoke. I'm thinking charismatic You're Tom's thinking cigars and Braden's thinking food

You went you had Justin Peters At least we're all reformed

It was all reformed circles So, yeah, no, it's gonna be a great time it's a one -day event, but if you come up Friday If you if you get up there

Friday night Make it up for the weekend and Sunday Andrew is gonna be preaching at my church on Sunday.

So awesome. Oh, wow Yeah, that's awesome. So we're gonna we get and I get Andrew twice

Bring in the fire. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so they'd be fun and then Yeah, Saturday's just gonna be like drinking from a fire hydrant.

So it's gonna be a fantastic We've got we're gonna have just a great time we're gonna have a little so this

I'll just I'll give you the background why you Asked the question why built a conqueror? Yeah so see

I pulled a Donald Trump there and I Can be the greatest conference you've ever seen. Nobody's ever

Quilted and I started talking about something we're gonna conquer you're not gonna see any conquering like we've come

Let me tell you right now what's gonna happen Tom. It's there's gonna be an amazing thing that happens. We're gonna conquer this thing called

Conquering quests of conquers and we're gonna do this from the from the from the stage Horrible impression of him

Hands down better than myself though. Let me tell you I could I could give you my best East coast

Conqueror you guys don't show up. You're gonna go to the cold plunge I'll show you conquering.

I'll show you what it looks like That's right, so no basically this

I've never been to fight Lafayette's and the company I work for this shameless plug.

I work for a company called The nine minds and I I help do infrastructure project management and IT stuff and I love been doing that for July be two years they are connected with the

CREC and I got called one day during during work and one of the guys that is one of the directors was like hey

Pastor, would you be interested in using your evangelical skills? To help further the business.

I was like, I'm always game for that like Jesus in business. We can figure that out He goes we're going to this thing called fight laugh feast

It's gonna be at the Ark and I was like, I know exactly what fight laugh feces. I've heard about it I've always wanted to go like well, you're gonna go and I was like sweet so we went and Plugged our business and I hung out and got to meet a bunch of people and I was like I could do this in Oklahoma This is a great kind of love.

I've never been I've never I got but I grew up in the church My dad was a pastor. I grew up going to Conferences and camps and church events and all this kind of stuff my whole life

I've never been to a conference that that was it was that fun. I was like, that was good

So you actually went to the one Andrew in Fort Worth, right? Yeah, I wasn't the one in Fort Worth That's where Caleb and I need

Oh didn't even realize he was there and I talked to him for 30 minutes before I realized who He was that's cuz he's sensational at a post mail.

No, no He had that big old huge beard and and I was talking like my name's

Andrew I was like, hey Andrew How you doing? I came over to my little podcast table and we're talking and visiting 20 30 minutes.

My wife is visiting with him we're all just one of my workmates is over there and he's like because the our work is in My minds is in Texas.

So they were all there And so we're all visiting together and Greg Moore walks by goes. What's the proper port?

No way I'm sorry. Wait a second Andrew Rappaport as in The Andrew Rappaport like you've done stuff with red comfort.

You've done stuck. You got he goes. Yeah, that's me. That was like Having the beard was great.

I no one recognized me I could I know It was a blast bro. I was like and I felt cuz

I've just been visiting like, you know, and I looked at my wife I was like, I Know that And she walked away and he got when that's somebody

I was like that was Andrew Rappaport and my wife goes, okay Like Literally the only person that my wife would get excited about George straight walked in that would be it

Outside of that. She'd just be like who I was like, he's a big deal Well, like he's a big deal

Brayden it'll tell him who Ken Powers is but he's from the from let's dot Church great great site if you go want to check

Let's dot Church They they basically take for our ministry and many others take all of our videos

Podcasts everything transcribe it make all the video and audios available but you can like search anything and it'll give you it'll bring you right into the media right to that moment where We're talking about something and so it's really neat tool, but I saw

Ken at the conference and Ken and I know each other we you know, but he did not recognize me.

We're talking for a while and Caleb walks up And was telling

Greg how he was talking to me and didn't recognize me and he mentions that and all of a sudden Ken we had like a 20 -minute conversation and he's just being polite

But he had like I know like I'm speaking like I know him, but he's like clueless on who I am so he's just doing the thing we all do when that happens and we just play along and all of a sudden would

Comes up. He's like wait a minute. I Walk back. I was like, wait a second you're

Yeah, you'll get over it Smart Alec remark you like yeah, eventually you'll get over it.

I was like I watched a ton of your videos. Like I like it's the beard you've completely thrown me off with the beard, bro

I was trying to look like Tom. Yes, but he doesn't have enough Okay, yeah, okay so so now wait a minute so built to conquer what's got the theme of the conference strategic

Ideas and strata strategies and ideas to advance the kingdom and share the gospel in The places we move and have our being

Hmm interesting. So did you did you develop the the actual topics for every sermon?

It's gonna be preached. No, you let him go I I am I am not like so I found out like through like Ligonier I guess

Ligonier like writes basically almost writes your entire talk really like they give you all your like They don't they don't give you just that.

Okay. This is your topic. They'll like we're gonna give you a very Structured thing to just you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna live within this

This is your house and you're gonna live within this time for this little project. Yeah Almost give you yet text notes ideas the whole nine yards.

I'm not that detail I'm like, what do you want to talk about? What what what what what gets you excited?

Yeah, you know, what's interesting is I saw I saw John Piper and I can't remember what conference with what that it was

But he got up there and said, okay my topic is this and then he started going over exactly what it was

He goes, but I don't believe this Different I Can't remember.

I gotta find what it was anybody who was watching that John Piper thing post it up and we'll pull it up That's funny.

Yeah. Wow. So no, I I'm just within that wheelhouse. I trust every one of these guys. That's that's yes

I'm gonna be sharing They a lot dude last year Brandon and and Brett and Chris and and Josh.

I mean all these guys Josh Eaton is a really good friend of mine We've in fact,

I used to be on staff for a little short season of time at his church and he and I are really good friends and I Trust these guys they wield the word well

And I just I just let him go. I mean look at some of the guys you got you got

Brendan Scalf who? Tom, I know, you know him a little bit probably

All right, people think this is is crazy, but I would put him up as one of the top two best Preachers alive.

Yeah, it's good guy. He really like people. He's Rough people are eventually gonna find out about him

He is people are gonna start. Yeah, he's gonna eventually, you know, he'll be a known name

You know in a decade His preaching is is outstanding Michael Stanton is there.

He he he He is one of the guys at master seminary who works in a doctoral program to train people

To preach so if he's the guy that is I think he I think he's

Brandon's mentor if I'm not mistaken Yeah, he was okay. So if you got a guy who's

Training people at a doctorate level you preach. Yeah, you know, his preaching is gonna be pretty good

Yeah, I would definitely put him up there Matter of fact, I heard him speak last at the

Reformation conference that they had that g3 had Yeah, and I mean his structure was just impeccable

I mean you could just go through and just model sermon really good delivery, you know good stuff.

It's gonna be great And Then I'm you got the hillbilly.

I'm three. So I'm going first that way. Yeah, y 'all remember what I said Brett Baggett, man

I'll tell you what I mean for a guy who's not been to seminary but he reads the Puritans just and you could just know he's just spent time with the

Lord first time I met Brett I was actually at an abortion mill and he was sharing at the abortion mill and I was just like I Was blown away

By his wife corrected me. I'm sorry. It was the cessationist conference. Not the reference. Thanks, Deb.

You're your lifesaver We wouldn't have known She would have she would have told you about it later

Like her already in the fact that she corrects Tom publicly, you know My wife was here if she wasn't in there planning these other events right now in our yeah

She'd be like telling me that's not no, that's Yeah, that's not the name of our company, honey

What are you doing, baby? Well, you know Caleb Caleb. I'm gonna give you a warning if you're ever like in an emergency situation

And you need to to phone a friend. Don't don't own Tom See a message saying hey,

I'm doing evangelism. I'll call you at 3. I'm still waiting No, I said

I'll be done Yeah, and I was waiting for the content to call but I was doing

Very good. It takes a lot of time for him to get on AI to go. Give me some questions for for Caleb Did you guys did you guys do any evangelism today?

I did not I Didn't make it out of the house today, but that's cuz

I'm sick cuz you're Church, I did make it to church for the men's

Bible study. I Went right home You know Tom, I let me let me do this because you know

So so that I don't want you to guilt me into the fact that I haven't shared the gospel So let me share the gospel with you

Tom because clearly you need it Now does it count if I shared it online because there was a guy who told me that I need to be baptized to be

Saved and so I kind of explained the gospel. Yeah, but Presbyterians are even saying this kind of stuff now

I mean lately there was a group that we were part of matter of fact that the last apologetics live show that we did we had two

Presbyterians that believe in baptismal regeneration Just crazy stuff guys.

I don't know I don't know what they're doing So, but you know a lot of people don't even though they say they're

Christians don't know what the gospel is in fact We just had the president United States put someone in charge of my gosh race

Initiative that isn't even a person. She's in charge of defending Christianity She married like a member of journey

Yes, somebody posted something about she married a member of journey like That journey is that a that is true is that a

Christian band or an or a secular band I'm drinking

LaCroix. Look Laura. Hold on you guys. It's so good You got me on that whole trip when

I was over. It's flavored water Flavored water. It's a journey was a

Christian band. No I don't know that was like, oh, you know that one that yeah, don't stop

That's like I mean if you actually listen to the lyrics that song it's a horrible song But separate ways open arms, you know,

I think I was in eighth grade I had a girlfriend who broke up with me in the eighth grade that we want your heart. Oh, yeah

You wouldn't found great Valentine's Day Dance Michelle Pate that was her name and we called her

Mickey and we called her Mickey because the song was going around Oh Mickey You're so fine. It's the final blow.

I might know Mickey that one's that song. Yeah. Yeah, that was the song Yeah, never with me. She broke up with me on on Valentine's Day.

I was crying like a baby As the Valentine's Day dance brain it was horrible praise the

Lord that you listen you got Debbie. Oh Yeah. Well, I just want to thank

Michelle for at least answering my question because none of you did that. It's a secular group Listen, y 'all are rambling on Is yeah because Tom needs to hear the gospel

Alright. Yeah, so it's pretty all seriousness folks Kidding aside if there's someone listening that you're saying, you know, there's a lot of Different people different Christians that explain different things about what a

Christian is What the Bible teaches is very simple. Okay Something that we know every one of us

According to God has broken his law. Every single one of us is a criminal in his sight.

We broke his law That we are all sinners Yes, and that the wages of sin is death and that death is eternal it is it is forever without Christ so to be to Live your life and it doesn't matter how wealthy you are how much you have it on earth

Doesn't matter if you have broken God's law The punishment for that the wages of that is

Eternity you have to pay it forever In a place called hall, you don't get out and So many people think they could do good works do good deeds earn their way out of heaven.

Yeah but I want you to think about this if God himself had to become a man

Jesus Christ to die on a cross and you think your good works are gonna earn you anything

What does that do to the work that Christ did it diminishes it? Yeah, I mean you really want to stand before God and said the

God who came to earth as a man and died on the cross and you're gonna go but look at what I did I walked this old lady across the street.

I went to church So basically Andrew you're saying that if God wouldn't spare his own son

Do we really think that he's gonna spare any one of us? That's exactly right Yeah, and so the fact is the only way to get right with God is

Through what Jesus Christ did on the cross is not trusting self on our pride or what we call good works

But trusting what Jesus Christ and he alone did on the cross. Amen. That's right.

I mean That now he can't guilt me because I just shared the gospel of 53 people I think that kind of really goes back to there are so many people that claim the title of Christian No, but those that have a hard time.

It's more than just being able to Put these things together in a sentence that's comprehensible for some people

There's some people out there that claim to be Christian and they truly do not know the gospel Yeah, and the the 1689 confession chapter 1 and the

Holy Scriptures paragraph 7 or 8 It says that the things of the faith that are essential for unto salvation

Are so clearly laid out and this is not ignoring the inward illumination of the

Holy Spirit that comes about in verse paragraph 6 Regeneration but these things are so clear that you should be able to understand them and be able to talk about them in a manner that Is understandable and concise and so if somebody is titling themselves as a

Christian They cannot communicate that or they cannot profess that Well, how they even called upon the name of the

Lord to be saved Yeah, well Brendan, you know, I was talking with a pastor out in Arizona about you actually earlier today

And we were talking about how you know when you and I first met because it's really funny He's talking to me about you not realizing that you and I've gone back a long time

Yeah, yeah, I don't know who that was I do But the thing is is that you know

We're discussing the fact that when we first met you you weren't saved all that long.

It was it was up in, Idaho You still had a baby that was in a baby carriage, you know, you were your oldest was

Just months boy when we first met I didn't have any kids quite yet.

I think you might be thinking are you thinking? Yeah Temple openers the first time we met listen,

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit trail But the first time we met was at a gun range in, Idaho.

Oh What about that? You have a gun range No, no.

Oh, there's a guy. Okay. No Andrew. Yeah anyway, I Hit I ran into you another time and then

I ran into you another time I was like, hey, you remember that time we shot guns together and you're like no brain. I've never gone and done that before You're lying

Talking about I was there So anyway, yes, we've met a few times before we met

I remember I remember at the The temple opening

Okay, and you had your wife was there. Yep And you had I thought it your baby if they're oldest was that the meridian temple opening that I didn't hurt him

But but all that status this was a medium when he was a Mormon. No, no

That's the whole thing that where I was going with it is You know Braden when before you got saved

You would have thought you were Christian Yeah, you would have you would have thought that you had the true gospel message.

Yeah, and You know folks that don't know Braden's history, right and you could share some of it

You you're a Mormon that you you're convinced that you were going to convince your now wife

To be a Mormon and that backfired on you big time I Get married because you got saved that's right

So on that note, let me ask you this Andrew So and I have status and brought this up talking about people who think that they're

Christians I mean, this is a group Catholics and ether Eastern Orthodox Christians Quote -unquote would believe in the

Trinity. They would believe in the God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit So they would actually have

Jesus right in this. What is the difference? Why would you say that? This may not be true

Christianity with what they hold well, there's three things that in the back of my book on what do they believe

I put a little quick chapter of the uniqueness Christianity What sets

Christianity apart from every other man -made religion? I think all the others are man -made. So ether and orthodoxy and Catholic I think they're man -made.

I think what you have today in Judaism rabbinic Judaism is man -made No, it's not the same thing as the

Judaism of the Bible. And so there's there's one very key area that Sets it apart.

Okay But first let me talk about one thing that makes

Christian unique every man -made religion is going to be based upon a moral System, it's do's and don'ts.

No Christianity is based on a person. Yep If you really look I mean

Joseph Smith, you could have Mormonism without him Because the teachings of actually the

Mormonism we have today didn't actually come from Joseph Smith. It came from Brigham Young Right, so, you know, you didn't

You didn't need Muhammad for Islam you did but you cannot have Christianity without Jesus Christ.

Why? Because he who Jesus is he is truly God and truly man in in his

Divinity he's eternal so he could pay an eternal fine in his humanity. He never sinning

He could be a perfect sacrifice for us a substitute for us Oh, the first thing is the uniqueness of the person of Jesus Christ the thing that makes it unique and what defines the difference of man -made and Divine religion is who does the work right?

You add something to Some sort of works whether it's your baptism

Something but in every man -made religion, there is some element of human effort Christianity Christ did all the work and we can't do anything

Right, and and that's why those others are moral systems because they're just do's and don'ts because that's all they got is the rules

All right. Here's something that people don't think about though Do you know that Christianity is the only religion that can have a

God that is both just and merciful? Yeah because justice and mercy are mutually exclusive Islam will say

Allah most merciful and Then you ask him. Well, is he just and they'll say yes.

Okay. So how how come he just Based on something he doesn't share with us.

He just lets people into heaven when we all deserve hell, right? So that's a lot of a lot of the things when

I go out on the streets Matter of fact a lot of people today would say that he God is just a loving God and my my

God wouldn't condemn me He's just gonna as if God is going to dismiss my sin

He's gonna be able to reason with him and he's just gonna look the other way and not even count it

But like you had said, he's a just God Just God must punish sin

And either I'm gonna pay the penalty for my sin or Jesus did it on the cross as a substitute for me

And everything and so but but and I and I think you were you were going to the right direction I interrupted you

Andrew I'm sorry on the with Catholicism They do believe that Jesus died on the cross

What what is it and I'm they don't they don't believe that that was sufficient

Yeah, yeah, right what they both have is something they add to What Christ did on cross in in Catholicism it is faith plus works

Mmm, and then you've also got the ability they pray to Mary they bring to the

Pope. Well, those things would help So let me give you a background on I got so I just there's an

I had a neighbor not he was Roman Catholic and Our our sort of kind of thing that connected us

Was he had a Wyoming bumper sticker and that's where I'm from and I just have I was just happy you from Wyoming is now But I love why

I was like, oh I was born there He's like, oh man, I tell me let's talk about it. We started talking and we come to find out and I'm a pastor

I Gave him some stuff to watch and so read we talked about the gospel. He's like, I'm gonna start picking your brain

I said, that's awesome. I love when you're right so we started going through this and this has been years of a relationship and then

Too flat not this last Thanksgiving, but Thanksgiving before He has a barbecue business and he catered our

Thanksgiving our churches Thanksgiving meal every year for the last couple years and We met at a local coffee shop to have a conversation about the meal prep all the stuff and he looks at me

We're sitting there. He's got it brought a big thick. I Didn't know what it was at the time.

It was a Bible, but he brings this big thick Bible and a notebook and we're and I'm he's got his notebook.

We're talking meat and Barbecue sauce and we're talking chicken and turkey and all this other stuff. He goes, can we stop for a minute?

I said, yeah, man, he goes I Have just been having a conversation with you and Going into the bathroom.

What do we happen? What's happening right now? He's out of control

Caleb Right now, you know what I'm We're getting that we're good keep going

So so we're sitting there and he's having that we're Talking turkey and we're talking all this stuff and he literally

I didn't do that. I don't know what happened I didn't touch anything I did Hi guys.

Hi everybody So we're in the middle of this thing because I have I've gotten some questions because You and I've had many conversations over the last several years.

He goes There's just something different about you and your approach and I am

I I don't I don't know what it is But I want what you have and I just was like, can

I be really honest with you? and he said sure he goes I Don't believe you're born again

I don't believe you're a Christian and he goes and I had all of the things lined out as to why

I was good Because I was expecting him to go. Oh, yeah That's what I'm expecting.

So I've got in my mind that I was because I've asked for permission permission. Can I be honest? I said, I don't believe you're born again.

He just goes Yeah, I don't think I am either Hmm He's honest with himself.

Oh Sweet and so we walked through this and I thought talked about sin and the need for repentance and what

Christ did on the cross He didn't know basically, you know, he did all the heavy lifting and we walked through what the gospel is and and I and I said, so basically here's the bottom line.

You need to repent of your sins This is where it has to start and first John 1 9 if you confess your sins he

Jesus is faithful and just to forgive you and to cleanse you from all of your unrighteousness and he was like Can I do that right now?

I was like Yeah 100 % and so I just grabbed his hand.

I said listen, this is my rule I said, I don't lead anybody in prayer and and this

Ray Comfort told me this personally he said it would be like if I Did something horrible to my wife

Like just offended her immensely and I was just yeah,

I just broke my wife's heart hmm, and I I Andrew comes to the house and Andrew is like listen,

I'm gonna help you Caleb. Okay, great. Thanks Andrew Andrew comes He great like what my wife's kicked me out of the house.

It's just and so he comes to the door This is what you gotta do. You gotta say this just repeat after me, honey.

I'm sorry, honey I'm sorry, I'll never do it again.

I'll never Hold it. You said no, I'll never do it again. I Really want you to take me back.

I Really want you to take me back. She's gonna love this won't she?

Congratulations welcome you've just now reconciled with your wife. Yeah Prayer right, right.

That's so Ray's like Would your wife believe that apology and I was like, oh heck no.

He goes neither does God And so my rule has been listen, I'm not gonna lead you in a prayer

I said, what do you want God to do in your life? He's like and I'm and I'm just waiting

I wait he goes man I'm an absolute wretch and I do need to be forgiven of my sins and I want

God to save me. I was like Tell him. Yeah, I just let him go Yeah, and and like, you know,

I always I like to say this pray what you got. Yeah What what do you want God to do in your life

Okay If I lead you in a prayer like I can I can help point you in the right direction If you don't know what to say,

I can give you some pointers But you need to apologize to the Lord for what you did What have you done?

You've broken his law. You absolutely transgressed his law and you deserve his wrath. You deserve his is

Unmitigated unbridled wrath. Yeah, but here's the beautiful news That's the bad news as my dad used to say

No one's gonna get saved until they understand that they need to be saved. You got to understand you need to be saved number one

And then just apologize ask God to forgive you at first John 1 9. I love that you're staying outside the bathroom.

That's Go sit down If You confess your sins this like this is the truth if you confess your sins and listen

You're not confessing them to me. I can't save you. I have zero listen. I don't even most of them

I can't keep my phone straight. I don't even know where my phone is. Most of the time I can't save my phone much less your soul you confess your sins to the

Lord Jesus Christ You repent of your sins and ask Jesus to forgive you. No, man can save you.

No Pope can save you Period that's right. Jesus and Jesus alone.

He is the one who does all the heavy lifting I do nothing The only thing that I did is

I contributed the sin that made it necessary for my salvation to take place I think that's the the issue is that when we when we come to Christ empty we come to Christ bringing nothing but our sin

Nothing to offer No contribution at all. And that's and I think that's in it when

God changes a person's heart breaks you over your sin It's a conviction that you cannot you cannot just resist.

No, we're reformers. We believe in and You know, we believe in tulip total depravity unconditional election limited atonement

Irresistible grace come on if God has made you alive You're gonna be broken over your sins and we're gonna be convicted over your sin

Yes, so I don't need to lead anybody into that. No, this is something that God has done in my life

Where does that come from? It comes from? Yeah 17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the

Word of God was saved by grace through faith And so that was like that's my I grew up a pastor. Okay, so I I thought

I mean I went to camp I said the prayer I walked the aisles I did all the things you're supposed to do as a kid going to camp and do all those things and I remember my dad

Preaching a sermon and he was preaching over whitewashed tombs and Pharisees Yeah, and how

Jesus looks at the Pharisees says listen, you're a whitewashed tomb you beautiful on the outside. You look

Crafted and put together on the outside but inside you're full of dead men's bones and I remember sitting in the back

Left corner of the Baptist Church that my dad pastored and I was like, oh shoot.

That's that's me That's me. Yeah, like that's me and my dad didn't ever really give invitations

Which is just like this. I believe this is once again God doing what God does Yeah For some reason my dad said

I don't normally do this guys But today I feel compelled to give a gospel invitation if you're here and you want to repent of your sins you want to trust the gospel

I was like Like it's literally I felt like something was pulling me and so I literally walked down the aisle and thank

God my dad wasn't His identity wasn't wrapped around the idea. Oh my kids a Christian sure.

Hey, I walk down grab my hand. What's up, son? I said dad. I'm not a

Christian I'm not saved he goes. Well, let's get that. Let's get it handled, bro yeah, and we went to the mat together and men prayed and And once pray what you got son, yeah, what do you want

God to do I was like I wanted to save me I got my sin. I can't believe my it was it was like the light bulb went off I was like, it's my sin not of the world my sin is what put

Christ in the cross my lying my cheating my lusting my Vile tongue my bitter spirit all the the grossness that is in me

Like I posted something like this the other night. I said I said I get sometimes I think about Old Caleb.

Mm -hmm gosh Yeah, the vileness the wickedness

That Jesus awoke me to that reality gentlemen that Jesus awoke me like this is the funny thing that I people freak out

Cuz what's the one thing that every freaks out about Calvinism? What's the one one? What's which it which which out of the tulip which one is it?

Well, but probably limited atonement mostly. Yeah They're like, wait a minute

Jesus didn't die for everybody. Oh my gosh, and so they freak out right everybody loses their mind

There's that guy that comes on Andrews show on Thursday nights. He's debated him before it freaks out free will free will

Instead of freaking out number one Realize that God awoke you to the reality of your sin

For it should be like a warm blanket that wraps around you and you shouldn't and he didn't have to he didn't have to yeah

That's number one number two rather than sitting around going. Well, it's not fair Shut up and go sit down and talk to somebody about the

Lord Jesus Christ. Guess what Jesus's answer to your neighborhood is you?

Go go sit down have a conversation It might be God's gonna use you to be the missionary that awakens somebody to the reality of their sin and that they need to Repent of their sins.

Yeah Yeah, it's interesting that you say that, you know We all know as reformers that we didn't contribute anything to our salvation our regeneration, but we can contribute to To in evangelism in the salvation of others

Brayden. What would you say man when you when you have somebody that's convinced of Sinner prayer that they they prayed a prayer one time and everything

What are questions that you would ask them to get them to realize? That you know what Maybe maybe maybe

God hasn't done that work in my heart that you're you're more convinced What do you do to tell a person that's convinced because they said that prayer?

What are evidences? Convicted and left. I know he Know he just jumped off It looks like I think it kind of goes back to this question that you originally asked and I don't think we've even really sufficiently answered it so There's there's a lot of different identities and titles that we can take in this world

Christian is one of those things And so just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're actually born again.

Come on saved by Christ. Yes, and so While I wish that was the case that when somebody said

I'm a Christian They didn't understood what they were implying when they said that we we live in a day of cultural Christianity that has lost that that ability to understand what that title means but nonetheless

To be an actual Christian to be born again means that you will hold to the essentials of Christianity.

So Johnny unless you believe I am you shall die in your sins. You cannot be a Christian and not believe that Jesus is

I am That's a that's an exclusive statement. That's an essential of the faith You cannot believe you cannot you cannot deny the virgin birth you you must actually be born again

That is something that unless or else you will not enter into the kingdom of God These are essentials to the

Christian faith. And so I think Going back to somebody that said the sinner's prayer that that's all great and fine

You could have said whatever you wanted. You could have asked Buddha you could have asked anybody If you don't have an actual heart change if you are denying the essentials of the

Christian You are not you're just not a Christian period and so going back I think to that original question is

Can a can a Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox be Christian or can they be

Christian Possibly maybe if they're if they're if they're holding to the essentials of the

Christian faith So are they saying that they're saved by grace alone? Are they saying it's grace plus their works because if it's grace plus they're denying an essential

You're not a Christian. You're not and that's what the whole point of Romans for like we you are not justified by your works

Here's what I'll say is that I think in that People he asked the Roman Catholics and he's from I think if you are genuinely born again

Which that's I don't ask people if they're Christian anymore used to but ask the question Have you been bought with the blood?

Are you born again? Because that that throws people completely off. They're like, right? What's this born again?

Let's go to John chapter 3. Yeah, but so If you are a genuine born -again believer in the

Catholic Church I believe you will not stay there. I You agree absolutely there if you're a genuine born -again believer in the

Lord Jesus Christ You can't stay there because there's too many inconsistencies. There's too many false ideologies.

There's too many false Constructs within the Catholic Church Religions a lot of false religions that there there can there can be this this

Untangling of falsehood to truth and it might take somebody a second to realize wait

Did that priest just say this and I'm reading this right? That's one of the great blessings.

I should have a Martin Yeah today we we all have access to the Word of God typically for the most part, especially in the

United States We all have access praise the Lord for that. Yes, and so We can now fact -check

Yeah, the priest stands up and says yes, hey you're saved by these indulgences or hey come confessor sins to the priests in order to receive reconciliation

Yes yeah I like that brain because you know I was thinking that if a priest if I was in a Catholic Church and I was saying

I'm trusting for Jesus Christ for my salvation He says okay, and you must take the sacraments and you must do this

You must do this and he's adding all these things. Where's that in the blue? To Christ's work on the cross

Yeah It was him in his act of obedience coming into the world to live the life that I cannot live fulfilling the law

Laying down his life in my place This is something that I could not do and the scripture says like your point

Braden that we have access Into this grace in which we stand through Faith it's through faith alone in Christ alone

We add anything to that and we're we're believing in another gospel. So that's back to the next question

That's not clear hundred percent. It's a baptismal Regeneration whether a spoonful or a lake full you are not saved by the water.

The water cannot make you a Christian Absolutely, right it is it you are saved by great

Ephesians 2 8 9 is I mean it is insanely clear You're saved by grace through faith alone alone when it says alone

That's what it means. You're saved by grace through faith. That's it If you add water to it if people don't know you got to be baptized be saved too.

That's part of it I'm like no, that's that that is adding to that is That is grace plus something else if it's grace plus anything.

It is not gospel Salvation period if you I mean you you you can't so grace is

The unmerited favor, that's the definition Right. So if if grace to be crazed means it has to have no other things with God's riches

If you say grace plus works you have eliminated Unmerited favor.

It's no longer there. It's not other words. You're doing what Romans for Romans? Yes Now to the one who works his wages are not counted as a gift, but as what is due

Yes, if you're saying it's baptismal regeneration or that it's bad You're saved by something that you have done other than the work of Christ.

Come on alone. Come on It's yeah, you are working the wage. That's what it is.

And By definition, that's not grace by definition. That's not great

And so that's that's that's me back to this idea of every other religion You've got to do something to appease your

God in order to keep him at you know, keep him God will never be put in your debt

The God of the Bible will never be put into a human beings debt Think about think about the kind of God that we would serve

What would it say about my God if I thought or somebody's God that as they define them if I thought

That in some way I could bribe God with my righteousness that I could bribe

God with my giving To be able to access to say oh, wow Glory that the creator of the world is gonna look down upon his creation who has rebelled against them

Who is an enemy against him who spits in his face by doing what they want to do loving their own sin

And then in some way I'm gonna be able to do something to count my own self righteous before him.

Come on It's impossible. It is absolutely impossible. I cannot do anything anything to earn his earn his favor

It's only by so, you know, a lot of people say well, you know, we're not saved by works Well, that is true, but we are saved by someone else's works.

Come on. That is Christ Yes, that is Christ in his active obedience He accomplished everything that we were to live we were to be loved that perfect life.

We can't live it He did he was tempted in every way as we are yet without sin so perfectly

He accomplished all the heavy lifting. Yes, absolutely all the heavy lifting and I I didn't I do

I can't lift Yeah, do you even live bro? No, I don't That's right So yeah 100 % man

I think that there are so many people in the world today that that have this Ideology that they think they're believers

I mean if I walk where I'm in Oklahoma and if I walk down my street and I knocked on my door or not People's doors.

I said do you are you a Christian? They'd be all of course. I am Well, I always want to know what are you doing?

What's what's happening in your life right now that would identify you as an absolute? Christian, what are you doing?

Most of them will be like I Sometimes go to church. Okay That's great

That's not I'm not upset with that But what what what identifying marks could the

FBI figure out that you're a believer? Mmm, could you that's a good question Caleb one of my pastors and I think it was a

Reformer actually asked this question if they're asking somebody this question that if if you were on trial

For being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you?

To Christ The FBI's tapping your phone. Do you did they see what do they see on your social media page?

What do they see in your search history? What did they see? Do you believe you you looking at? What are you looking at?

What are you following? What are you doing? Well, uh, I Don't know.

Yeah, you know and I I will also say this Because Abraham is given to us as an example often in Scripture as a person that was accounted with righteousness through faith

That's right Shane said something I got it right here immediately our minds will say well

What about well the thief on the cross and yeah They're gonna say well that this is dada dada dada and they give no, let's even just talk

We can talk about the thief on the cross. That's great. But let's talk about Abraham Abraham in Galatians chapter 3 verse 6 just as Abraham believed

God and it was counted to him as righteousness Yeah, and it says in the scripture foreseeing that God would justify the

Gentiles by faith preached the gospel Yes Beforehand to Abraham.

Yeah saying in you shall all the nations be blessed Abraham was saved through faith in the gospel

Yes Like that's that was before baptism even existed and Paul is making the argument that were justified the exact Same Frickin way, that's right.

And and and by the way Abraham was received a sign Received a sign after after after after he had

Romans 4 makes that argument was Accredited with righteousness before after he was circumcised.

Well, if it was after then he would have something to boast up But no, it was before absolutely he was circumcised and then and then yeah

Everybody likes to throw this one in there as well the thief on the cross that brother wouldn't that wouldn't he wouldn't baptized, right?

and listen Everybody gives that a hard time. But guess what? I think that's a great example. It's a great example

It is it really I love and I love the Collie we got

Scottish guy. Oh my gosh. I just went blank Ulster bag. Yeah To me said so The guy on the middle cross

Said I could come That's a great thought process cuz you met cuz he he doesn't know a darn thing about the

Bible doesn't know anything Doesn't know anything about Jesus said. No, he just knows he's like he just knows he's like Would you remember me?

He has enough faith a mustard seed of faith in this moment. Would you just remember me in your kingdom?

He's like I got you. You'll be there today. Yeah, and he wakes up and could you imagine he'd be like Could you imagine what he saw?

I'm just like Happening Like that moment where he like I have this mindset where I think about these kind of things all the time like You know

So what he thought let me ask answer Shane and Braden can help me out here, too But Shane asked the question so that the people believe that before baptism that that circumcision were the things that saved them

So no in the in the old covenant Yeah, remember in Abraham covenant in the in the

Mosaic Covenant there were conditions and being on those covenants So that those covenants according to Reformed Baptist We would hold that all the covenants before the new covenant were covenant of works

Why were they works because there were conditions placed on those covenants? So one of the things that Abraham had to do in all his his seed after him

In order to remain in that covenant they had to be circumcised They had to be circumcised and if they weren't circumcised they were placed outside the camp there was conditions

There was a condition placed on that covenant. They could remain in that covenant But then they'd had to do something

They had to go get circumcised to be able to go in that brain go to Galatians 5 real quick Yeah And that and what that circumcision meant and what they understood that we find reading

Reading through the lens of the New Testament through the New Covenant through the lens of Christ He's gonna explain what that meant

Reading it. I think it's a 5 -2 5 -2. Yeah You know,

I as you're as you're gone there, I think I think what Shane's asking and he said it right here not you guys

Oh, yeah saying is do the people who believe in baptismal regeneration do they believe also believe in in circumcision all?

regeneration like if I don't think so, I think that they actually believe that that that they're holding to that water baptism actually is the process in which

Along with the Holy Spirit makes a person. I think that's what Shane is saying Is yeah before before baptism was a thing in the

New Testament Oh people saved in the Old Testament, right? But nonetheless, let me read

Galatians 5 -2 because I think this is perfect. Yeah 5 -2. I believe so Look I Paul say to you that if you accept circumcision

Christ will be of no advantage to you I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he's obligated to keep the whole law

You are severed from Christ you who would be justified by the law. You have fallen away from Grace, right?

So anybody who was circumcised and sorry if I misunderstood your question So hopefully it didn't go too far off But anybody who was circumcised

Paul says that that person really had to keep it all he had to continue to keep it all

So based on that it would be a covenant of works So Yeah So anybody who received what does this say here?

Oh, thank you, brother. I really appreciate it. Praise God That is a beautiful verse to demonstrate that if you were wanting to so first of all

Anything in the Old Testament that you see that is conditional upon Somebody's actions whether those those things are by definition again

We go back to what is the definition of grace and it is unmerited favor those those covenants by definition

Cannot be a readministration of a covenant of grace. That's right They have to be even if you see examples of grace

Even if you see God being kind because anytime God interacts with his creation, it's graceful.

It's merciful It's absolutely it's a demonstration of his loving kindness in these things But it doesn't mean that by definition that the nature of these covenants therefore our grace

Because it still is obligating of the create the creatures within that covenant to work

And so these covenants in the Old Testament, I Think that that's a beautiful example, brother

I love how you how you do that if you if you Believe that you are in this covenant that you have to do things in order to obtain or keep or to maintain

Especially in this text in the days of the Judaizers Paul saying you're you're not free in Christ Then you're actually under this yoke of bondage

Yeah, which demonstrates that no one was saved through the covenant of works in the Old Testament You could be saved while living in it

But it was on the merit and and faith of what the promise seed would do on your behalf in the future

And so that's go back that goes back to Galatians 3 that the gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham And it's

John chapter 8 before Abraham was I am he was glad to see my day Abraham saw

Christ there in Genesis 15 in place faith in the promise and he trusted God your

Your will be done and this is going to come about and so that that's exactly what the

Christian does today is we look back to the cross and we say the seed has indeed done this on my

Behalf and so the covenant of grace the reason why it's superior There's a multitude of reasons but the covenant of grace that's that's mentioned in Jeremiah 31 that's then repeated and quoted for us in Hebrews 8

Romans 11 Christ before he's crucified at the the night of the Passover at the when he's when he's

Instituting the the bread and the wine those are It's a demonstration of something that is not ever repeated in the old covenants and that is a forgiveness of sins

Right that is only found in the covenant of grace aka on Mary covenant

Yeah, new covenant what Christ has mediated and so Christ fulfills his old covenant of works

And he mediates something better for you and I something that you and I want to actually be a part of yeah

Shane I was so yeah, I I think that Owen was going that direction for sure as well

I think that if he would live longer it would have developed a little bit longer and I think you see it Already in his covenant theology because he did not hold the classic covenantalism as you probably already know and so and if you would there's a lot of even

Baptists today that would still hold to classic covenantalism and See the covenant of grace and they're different administrations all the way through going all the way through the which is the new covenant

But if you if you do hold to that you do need to be baptizing your babies because you're being inconsistent

So what's 1689 federalism does as it shows you it shows a distinction between all these covenants of works

I don't know Braden still has that graphic a long time ago though of the core And give him a minute here and what it is is it shows that every single covenant covenant works all the way from the time of Adam to the

Abrahamic Covenant to the Mosaic Covenant to the Aranic Covenant to Davidic Covenant all the way all those things were

Subservient to the new covenant and in types and shadows as God revealed his plan of redemption all the way through it

John Owen, yes, I did. I meant John Owen Shane All the way pointing to the new covenant of grace.

And so but yeah And I think it's another thing that's really important to remember too is if if somebody thinks that somebody was saved through The obedience to a covenant found in the

Old Testament aka a covenant of works You have to then submit that they were saved under the mediation of that covenant head, right?

Which that would be other than Christ Jesus himself Nope, and we know man think about that for a moment.

Just think about what you're what the logical conclusion of that is Yeah, yeah, I was saved because of Moses Sound right to anybody sounds ridiculous.

Sounds radical. Yeah, so there's only one mediator and who's the mediator? Who's who's who's the name by which name everybody is gonna be saved

Christ Jesus, right? Amen. Oh Let me see if I can find this. Well, I think

We have to ask I was I like to ask the question Why do we have baptism?

like what is the purpose of baptism and we have to understand that that it is a picture and Type of the death burial and resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ. That's the reason I believe that Immersion is the only proper way to administer

Baptism because it is a picture and and here's a great analogy My dad used because people say oh, it's not that big of a deal.

You could you know, it's sprinkle moment That's it's way more convenient. What was it convenient for Christ to go to the cross number one?

secondly Secondly, if you if you change the method you destroy the meaning and the method is death

Burial and resurrection and people so let me I got this. Hold on. I want to show you

I got a new picture of my wife Just I mean just the other day on my phone let me let me pull it up here really quick and it's just I mean is it is a fabulous picture and That's not your wife.

Well any old picture will do That is a good analogy right there

I Came from my dad. Yeah, so my dad's gone on to glory But that was my father and the first time he ever did that He pulled a picture of a donkey out and gave it to a little 80 something year a woman in the church and she

Smacked that picture. She goes that is not Cheney. That is offensive. She goes and he goes exactly the that's my point you

Change my method you destroy the meaning and any old picture will not do and if it's

Satan could destroy one message What would that message be the death burial and resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ? I mean when you're sprinkling your you when you're sprinkling your babies when you're pouring it over you're

Destroying the meaning of what Christ did Christ died and he was baptized. So he was placed into Immersed.

Yes first I make got time. I'll pull up because I do

I do a sermon on this every time I do a baptism There's there's a composite of scriptures that talks about It takes water.

It takes much water. The scripture says much water It takes a going down into the water and it takes it coming back out up out up out of the water

Mmm, and so there is a composite of scriptures that teaches immersion Yeah, period

Yes, and it is there is not a there's no such thing as sprinkling sprinkling was invented by the

Catholic Church Out of convenience on the field of of the Crusades because they believe that you had to be baptized by their guy

To get into heaven so they're out there They couldn't lug a tank around so they had to get there sprinkling the guys before they died did the last rites all the stuff

This was invented by the Catholic Church baptism was Immersion because it was a picture was a picture in type of that is what baptism is

It is a picture of the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I always take one of our young bucks This is the closest

I get to Infant baptism is I'll take one of the small guys because they're littler and I'll set them up on a pew and I'll say everybody

In the room imagine with me really quick that that that one of our guy right here is in the water.

He's chest -deep Look at the picture. He's death. He's buried with Christ Raised the newness of life death burial

Resurrection and so sure when you change the meaning you destroy or you when you change the method you destroy the meaning

And any old picture will not do Yeah so Something that was just said here

And just to clarify good good point. Yes sprinkling is taught in the Old Testament, but that was a ceremonial cleansing

For the priests and understand it was that was a washing. Yeah Yeah, that was a washing and not to mention the fact like Caleb pointed out to Baptizo means immerse that that that's what it means.

Anytime. We read baptized read immerse. That's substituted I'm working on my I've got

Jumped over to another page here to grab my notes for that sermon because I think it's it when you when people begin to see

This I just take it for granted that I had a dad. It was just epic when it came to Understanding the scriptures and teaching it well, and I just I just I'm thankful to the

Lord for that. So Mark chapter 1 verse 8 Talks about that. You need water. You have to have water

John chapter 3 verse 23 says he baptizes you with because the water was

Plentiful or there was some translation to say there was much water Acts chapter 8 verse 38 says that they went down into the water

Yeah, and then Rome you got Romans 6 3 through 5 talking about being buried with Christ Yeah, then acts 839 they came and mark 1 10 they came up out of the water

So if they're down in the water Logic will tell you that they're gonna come back up out of the water How did they why did they come up out of the water because they were down in it?

They were in it. So these illustrations are all throughout the text that it takes water

It takes much water. It's right and this is it's

Listen, we do not have a faith of convenience We have a faith of conviction and we do not baptize out of convenience

I it just gets under my skin when I hear people so what's more convenient to sprinkle? Of course, it's more convenient you goofball

Yeah, you know what? That's not what Christianity is about is convenience. The one thing that we're about is conviction

What's the convenient you hold conviction to the Word of God or do you have a Convenience because why

I don't want to get my hair wet. I don't Come on Christ, I would one thing

I wanted to mention here and I know Braden you'd be really good at answering this question a lot of people will talk about and we would hold to It to Braden and I would

I'm not sure Caleb, but we would also hold that baptism is a means of grace But when we say means of grace, we're not talking salvific

Yeah, tell explain to them in the 1689 when it talks about baptism being a means of grace, what does that explain?

Yeah, there's several means of grace things that are Ways that we can grow in the

Lord and so sitting under the preaching of God's Word we grow in the Lord It's a means of grace when we're in fellowship with fellow believers and not forsaking the gathering we grow in our faith in the

Lord It's a means of grace Sanctification Sanctification, but yeah, yeah, yeah

Absolutely. Okay, because I think that a lot of people would put well in the in another camp of people would be pushing back

What about it's a means of grace and that's why a lot of people would say well at baptism the sacrament of baptism

What would be the very means of grace? That's the means Justified I would definitely say that it's more than just a memorial to it's it's it's it's

Something where you are putting on Christ is what Romans 6 says you're you're making a public

Yeah, this is what not only that not only for the person who's being baptized But I want it also the means of grace

For the people who are witnessing it think about it when you're preaching a sermon without more

It's a picture of the gospel How is not the gospel not only a means of grace to justify you?

But also a means of grace to sanctify you and to keep you and back Encouraging this is the reason why if if Satan could destroy one message

What would be the message that Satan would destroy it would be the gospel death burial and read and that listen that is the gospel

That's right. When you ask people. Well, what is the gospel? It's in the Bible. Of course, it's in the Bible silly But what is the gospel you have to answer that question?

What is the resurrection? Absolutely burial and resurrection for for those that would believe yes, that's that's it

That is that is the gospel the death of Christ the burial of Christ and the resurrection of Christ I do

I do want to touch on this real quick though, too So something with this

The the Reformed Baptist Baptists that are not Reformed Baptists are doing this by default because they're choosing to baptize someone after belief

But the Reformed Baptist has a has a particular Continuity that is much clearer than the the

Pato Baptist of the covenants so in the Old Testament Somebody was first born into the covenant or purchased as a slave into the covenant.

You can go read about this in Genesis chapter 15, right? You would you or Genesis 17 one of those two chapters that outlines this but regardless you were born into the covenant or purchased as a slave and After those things you receive the sign of circumcision

Yes You receive the sign of circumcision sign always came after entrance and so the covenant of grace

You don't enter into through ethnic Ethnical birth. That's what

Jesus is talking about in John 3 when he's looking at Nicodemus a Pharisee Who is of the

Abrahamic Covenant and that is their chief of all other things as I am a child of Abraham Ethnicity, right and Jesus looking at that man in the eye in the night.

He says you must be born again Right in order to enter into the kingdom of God So so you look at this and you see the the language of Paul and the

New Testament authors Talking about this new birth and you're purchased by the blood of Christ So you look back at that Genesis example of coming into that that that that covenant was birth or purchased as a slave we as Believers in the

New Testament believers in Christ. We are born again and purchased by the blood You can see that language being talked about right there and slaves and yep slaves

Absolutely. We come into entrance into the covenant first And then we receive the sign

And that is the continuity between all the covenants is how they funk how they function in that sense and how they how they

You just see the sign after the entrance. So you're saying The crate the cradle

Baptist. Let me say this real fast the cradle Baptist What they are doing is they're demonstrating what was seen in the

Old Testament the pato Baptist It would be like saying we should actually have circumcised slaves before we purchase them

Should have actually circumcised the child while in the womb before they were born. Amen Ridiculous, that's right.

Yeah, that's really interesting You know I've even heard a Presbyterian talk about the covenant of marriage and they would take that ring that you have here and see now this is the sign of the covenant of marriage, but when do you receive the sign of Even the covenant of marriage when do

I put this ring on after I'm married after this after the sign always is after it

It is always after Engaged and they have the ring on first there and Should they start having?

Yeah Let me let me just pause here real fast and say if you have not already gone we have 67 viewers right now

It's a great blessing for you to do Thank you so much for watching We would love it if you joined us to on you our

YouTube channel open -air theology Go check us out on our ex account as well open -air theology on there as well

And this was the graphic that Tom was talking about earlier I cannot zoom in on it right now because I'm on a different platform than my main computer where I could do that But this is just laying out the different covenants of the

Old Testament Comparing it to what Christ has done and is the mediator of the new covenant of the covenant of grace yeah, and so you can just see how there were there were blessings for those that were in the physical covenant in the

Old Testament, but Though that obedience that Admittance that action within those covenants did not mean you were saved

You still had to have faith in what is to come and that was the mediator That would bring about the covenant of grace the substance is

Christ. Yeah. Yeah, man Caleb you you have a book. I do I do it's

I mean, it's not it's not like a Joel Behe book. It's like 7342 pages, but it is a book nonetheless

There it is. What do we got there? But that's from one man walking peaks and Oh sanctification type of book

Yeah, I would say it's it's it's it would roll around with the idea of devotions

It's a good devotional at the end of each chapter I put together sort of kind of some some questions that that each you know that people can use maybe in a small group or just the personal

Bible study and and there's just different things that I have walked through in my Christian walk and It's just been something

I put together and and it's nothing fancy but I've always wanted to write and I and I've Just finally just pulled the trigger.

It's all Brett Baggett's fault He's he handed me a book and he had this little and that he wrote which is a fantastic book

And I was like, I was like, where did you and he and I were we were actually at fight last feast Last year and he's like this is where I did it and I was like, well,

I've been typing things out and writing stuff and I've Edited and I've checked all this and so I just dumped it into Amazon and Amazon publish it for me.

Yeah, it's I've It's it's all my we can go to my website

Caleb Gordon dot o RG up at the very top there there's a picture of the Amazon link and click it and But if you come to the conference, you can get a physical copy

At the conference because I have a whole box of them whole bunch of them. That's awesome Well praise

God for that and then tell everybody about the conference one more time, too Yeah built cock conference that has come in February 22nd

Hope Presbyterian Church in Bartlesville, Oklahoma I'm really good friends with Pastor Peter Johnson from Hope Presbyterian.

They have opened our their doors to us to host us It's gonna be a fantastic day Michael Staten Brett Baggett Josh Eaton branded scalp

Chris Gore Gabe wrench is gonna be there and the illustrious Andrew Rappaport will also be there as well and it's gonna be a fun time

Yeah, definitely that sounds good tickets Ron say you can get it also go to my website

Caleb Gordon dot o RG and only $50 I heard yeah 50 bucks. I mean you can't can't beat that.

Yeah, that's really good. I mean that it's Listen, it's the cheapest conference. You're gonna go to in 2025.

It has the level of teaching that G3 has that Shepherds conference has in fact week

I mean we got two dudes that are from Master Seminary one one's a doctoral Student student and the other ones a professor of I don't remember what he does there, but he's teaching

Yeah I mean Because we got we got master we got Shepherds conference level guys that are gonna be preaching and and and better fellowship 100 % there's gonna be so much fellowship and time to just just get to know people

To and we're also gonna have in the gym that they've got there. We're gonna have a business conference.

We've got a ton of great sponsors There's gonna be resource tables that are gonna be there with all the all the different sponsors and businesses that are gonna be a part

Of this come support those guys. We got a ton of great sponsors I've got like ten different sponsors and I just love them for what they're

Investing in to try to advance the kingdom in the places where we walk The idea is the strategy to advance the gospel in our time

Amen. Hey real quick, and I know I didn't tell Braden this though But let's give everybody kind of a plug and so he doesn't know

I'm gonna say this but I'm thinking like the next show I know look at him. He's totally surprised. I'm thinking the next show should be talking about Hermeneutical principles.

How do we read our Bible? Do we stick with a grammatical historical? hermeneutic do we go with a historical historical redemptive

Hermeneutic do we throw out do we omit one of those do we look at typology?

Do we compare scripture with scripture? What is the best way? To read the

Bible through what lens does the old interpret the new or does the new interpret the old?

What do you think Braden? Hmm? Well, you might have I read a controversial post or a Comment that I said

I wrote out earlier. Sure. Sure. Sure Interpret the old by the new

And that is using a lens of Christ and That is not to ignore a grammatical historical

It's actually a grammatical historical and also a redemptive historical you take all those those hermeneutical principles

They're not mute. They're not exclusively at odds with each other. They actually go hand -in -hand with one another

That's how the authors of the New Testament treated it and so I This is my hot take for today.

So you guys can write this down if you want if your hermeneutical if sorry if your hermeneutics produce an interpretation of the

Old Testament that an Israelite could say amen and Repeat in their synagogue.

Your hermeneutic is too shallow and is to be rejected

Christ Fire such interpretations of Moses and the law that excluded an ultimate lens of himself

Because those interpretations were veiled Second Corinthians 3 14 through 16.

Let me see if I can Drop it. Hang on. Just let me see. Yeah, drop it. Can you read that verse real quick with that?

Yeah, second Corinthians what? Second Corinthians. I just had it up. Sorry three.

I think it was 3 14 through 16 So I'll say the quote again and then I'll read the verse. How about that? Okay do that Somebody needs to quote me on this

All right, Braden Patterson, I'm gonna do it I'm gonna put flames behind it because this is gonna be a good show you guys

All right, if your hermeneutics produce an Interpretation of the

Old Testament that an Israelite could say amen and repeat in their synagogue

Your hermeneutic is too shallow and is to be rejected Christ rejected such interpretations of Moses and the law that excluded an ultimate lens of himself

Because those interpretations were veiled second Corinthians 3 14 through 16 says

But their minds were hardened for to this day when they read the

Old Covenant That same veil remains unlifted because only through Christ is it taken away?

Yes to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts but when one turns to the

Lord the veil is removed boom You guys are

You guys seriously, this is a huge topic there There is a large camp that will only hold to the historical the historical grammatical

Interpretation of the scriptures and they leave off typology They leave off Looking at the old reading the

Bible through the lens of Christ you guys we have more information now having the scriptures completed

You know then Moses had when he wrote it and one of the things that we're gonna be talking about It's a favorite quote of some

Samuel Rinehan He said yes The human authors had an understanding of what they wrote

But they did not have an exhaustive understanding of what they wrote. Yes So we're gonna be doing that next week y 'all you guys

You need me back for sound effects, I'll just Man well, hey, thanks for having me on.

Yeah any last words Caleb Drop in your game. Tell us

You're if you're close by Cedarvale, Kansas If you're in the Kansas area, Oklahoma, Northeastern, Oklahoma Come come hang out with us, man

We got people that are driving from like 50 miles away to come to church. It is a wild time Matt I just saw

Matt comment. I'm at Matt is one of the guys at our church Love the guy there. He is

Matt Matt can play a mean guitar. Holy boom. Hey, we need a we need a song Matt That's right

Matt they need some background music you need to record some sort of But bluegrass he does some bluegrass and I think he can play some skinnered every once in a while Copyrighted if he does skinnered, so, you know something you just Humble clay always always good to have you man.

Yeah, Michelle. You're the best Well, not the best not we got a whole bunch of people that are best,

Georgia awesome Michelle, where's my wife? I don't see her coming. She's asleep. Lame.

She said you're lame Horrible song.

Yeah, I got a text. What did Braden do this song? Yeah, now seriously if you if you can come up to the conference with men come seriously if you if you get here man

I want to come hang out with you guys Man message me on get get get your tickets and then message me and you can come come

Friday night come hang out Listen, I'm open in my house Friday night. Come on. Let's hang out So let's do it

I'll just say if you guys have not gone out to share the gospel tomorrow is the Lord's Day Go get edified built up in the

Lord be equipped You know and take some of that energy that you have some of that restoring some of that sanctification

Some of the gospel that you heard tomorrow and go out and tell your neighbor go knock on the door

All you have to do is walk out your door and you see a lost and dying world. They need Christ It's not as hard as you think it is

Just go out there ask someone and you know Have you ever thought what would happen to you if you were to die and tell them about the person and work of Christ?

Alone for eternal life. Okay, can I just drop? This is my favorite thing to do yeah

I love going to Walmart grocery stores and going to the cashiers because they can't leave

And I listen this is how it just starts. I'll look at him and they've got their name badge on them. Like hey

Roger How can I pray for you Hmm that I just start with that.

That's all I start with and then hey, do you Roger? Do you know how to get to heaven? and most of the time they'll be like And Then we just jump in right

Roger I keep using that guy's as a reference. I Walked through that with Roger and then not too long ago.

I was in an event. I was preaching at this event and Roger comes up to me He goes because I had mentioned

Roger as it in my sermon as an illustration about going to talk to people And I hadn't seen

Roger in a couple years Had tears coming down his eyes he goes Do you remember me?

I said I do it Roger. He goes. That's me gave me this big huge hug and Plugged in loves the

Lord. I'm just like that's awesome Like you don't mean how many times we don't get to see the back end of that kind of right like the fruit

But to see that he was in church. Oh, yeah Loving the Lord and I was just like Listen that's a smart.

I didn't you didn't seal the deal Even if no one comes. Yes, right even if nobody comes we share the truth of who

Christ is the Christ crucified and and to repent of your sins and trust the gospel and I'm telling you

The grocery store is the best because I can't leave and most of the time I've never had actually I've had one guy

Don't I was like hey, how can I pray for you guys? I'm an atheist. I don't pray I said well, I know exactly how

I need to pray for you my friend pray that God saves your soul and that you repent of your sins and trust

Christ and he's like whatever and There is no God and I hate him 99 .9

% of the time so the crazy I'll finish with the story and I'll shut up. Okay My brother -in -law's bachelor party.

We were at a steakhouse in Tulsa, Oklahoma and there's a whole group of dudes We're all sitting steakhouse and this waiters been busting his hump and he's helping us out

He's running up and down doing stuff and it's name badges on I was like, hey Tyler. We're about to Pray for our food.

How can we pray for you? Oh, that is good. And he goes he goes Well, man, actually,

I'm I'm engaged and I'm looking at buying this house I'm trying to hustle and grind so I can provide for my future wife and that that it that it that it just tells me

I was like, all right. Hold on guys. We're gonna stop. Let me get a pen and paper real fast Got him down. It's like get in here, bro.

Sit down I got the entire group of dudes not all of them were believers, but that's okay

I've got the entire group of the dudes together. I said we're gonna lay hands on this brother I didn't go charismatic calm down for those right?

We didn't I didn't go there and I just said father I pray in the name of Jesus that you'd be with Tyler that you'd give him

Wisdom and the decisions he's gonna do make with his new bride God if if Tyler is not a believer father if he doesn't know you

I pray that he would trust in your goodness that he would repent of his sins that he would trust the death bearer and resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ for his salvation and that he would Be a juggernaut for the kingdom

You mean you actually shared the gospel in the prayer? I yeah, I Pray preached a pre -trained.

That's right. And so and I so we get done and then my friend clay Texts me that night he goes dude

That was insane. I've never thought about doing that. Yeah, and then the next thing

I know all these guys are doing the same thing I've had that happen a couple times where I reach over and I just because everybody's up How can

I pray for you want me this this this and oh, yeah, I'll pray for you later Do it right now Do it and you're standing there and I'm not kidding

I was praying at Walmart one time and I was letting I feel a hand on my shoulder Dude behind me starts praying with me.

He's a believer. Yeah, come on. Yeah That's the way you do it really is that it really is that easy isn't it there's listen

We got there's like there's no magic formula. It's just right Share what you got? That's right.

Come on. Yeah. All right. It's actually awesome because that was last week I was just teaching a class on evangelism and I talked about how

You can pray the gospel and how effective that is and so anyway, that's that's cool to hear. That's awesome.

Come on All right. Sorry guys. Love y 'all. Hey, thank you, brother Caleb Let me do some plugs real fast before I give my welcome up before I get my outro.

How about that? If you haven't checked out striving for eternity, you got to be careful saying his name because he'll just pop up out of nowhere

Striving for eternity if you're watching us there, please go check out our YouTube channel open -air theology We really are hoping to build that channel up and just to be able to continue to meet together with a larger audience

So that we can engage with people with genuine questions. We had some awesome questions tonight. Yeah, we did really good dialogue

It was a great blessing Also, go check out this book resist tyrants. Obey God by Jacob Tanner It's a great book.

It's a great book. It's a great book. It's a great book Go check out this conference Go check out this conference. Yeah Go check out

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Yeah Yeah, and and I think that we could even persuade

Caleb to send you his book free If you if there's somebody that wants a copy of this book message me

We'll figure that out so Great blessing to be here with you brothers tonight tomorrow.

I am I'm the pastor of Grace Bible Church in Moorpark, California It's in the Ventura County area

So if you live in Southern California Or you know somebody that does be a great blessing to see you or your loved one or your family or your relative whoever

Neighbor, whoever it is that you know that lives in this area. Tell them about our church We meet on Sundays at 1030 be a great blessing to see you guys here and to worship the

Lord together We preach Christ and him crucified Thank you guys open -air theology