Politics Over Gospel, Back to David Allen and Romans 8

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:29

Well greens welcome to the dividing line, it's a Monday and what are we doing here on a Monday? well, it's travel week

00:35

I head out on the weekend and So that means I pick up the unit here in a few days and Take it to our staging

00:45

RV park and then you got a you know get her all packed up and set up and ready to rock and roll and long long trip long long long long trip

00:57

One longest I've done and Yeah Especially for my poor wife

01:06

I feel badly about that but There are things that need to be done this trip. And by the way working on I'm the

01:22

Now I'm not gonna say anything more about right it but there I'm trying to get to the big Dallas get together in February We're trying to It's a real challenge to juggle

01:36

Schedules at multiple churches try to get a speaker who's not not a

01:41

Christian Do a dialogue get them involved with things and and Put it all together to where you can drive these locations

01:52

It's it's challenge. There's no two ways about it. So we're trying to put some stuff together for February it may and I may end up I don't want to do it this way, but I may end up just simply driving to Dallas For the big debate thing and then driving home and then like three weeks later

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Head back out Maybe a little bit more South We'll see it may be the only way to make it work out

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It's like I said, it's Complicated to make make all the stuff work. So we're trying to do we can with the resources we have address important issues such as Islam and That really

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Needs to be addressed there's more and more interest in it in the United States because of what you see happening in places like Michigan and Lo and behold

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Lo and behold who has been telling us? Who's who on this program has been saying since Oh 2006

02:59

That Islam is a political religious system or religio political system depending on its percentage within a population

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So when it's a small percentage the emphasis is on the religious aspect when that percentage reaches a certain critical mass the emphasis goes to the political and You'll never understand the political if you don't understand the religious but it's a mixture of both and therefore it's very different on that level than what we are accustomed to and It is

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Sad to see, you know, we see these huge gatherings of Muslims in places like Dearborn very few

03:52

Christians Responding to seek to evangelize these people because they don't want to Instead what's their what's their reaction?

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deport them ban them even if their citizens doesn't matter got to get rid of them da da da da da as If they're as if the political solution is the first solution

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But let's just face it for a lot of people who call themselves Christians today That is where they're going the the idea of the gospel

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That's that's that's a that's a nice religious sentiment, but I Think we're seeing how few people really trust in it because if you if you actually

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Emphasize that then you have to believe the Spirit of God will apply the gospel But he'll do so in his own time just as the

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Spirit gives the gifts as he wills In the same way God will draw his elect into himself when and how he wills and The reality is it's this seems that many people in the church just don't have that kind of patience and God needs to do it my way.

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He needs to do it faster and I'm going to start utilizing worldly methodologies political alliances and If I have to compromise on the gospel if I have to minimize the specifics of the gospel

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So be it got it got to be a heritage American. You know gotta gotta save my country and if if sort of being a little embarrassed about Galatians is the cost for that then why not and That's we're seeing all around us and what

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I mean embarrassed by Galatians Remember No, you're not gonna remember

05:52

I'll go remembers but nobody else remembers when I debated Barry Lynn in 2001

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I believe it was quarter of a century ago the The man who had testified for Congress that child pornography was a guaranteed

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First Amendment, right? But then sued us to try to suppress the videotapes of the debate we did on homosexuality with him

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He lost anyway During that debate he is the

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United Church of Christ minister, you know anything about the UCC You know, they are the walking dead denomination.

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They became apostate over a century ago and He specifically said that he receives revelation the same level as the

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Apostle Paul did and And He said that Paul said a lot of things in Galatians that were just over -the -top

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I think it was the exact quote over -the -top and So Yeah, there are a lot of people that are embarrassed

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By how strong the Apostle Paul was he identified people who who added one little thing?

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to how you become a Christian as As suited Elf boy false brethren false brethren

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You're not gonna that's not winsome. You know, that's that's that's that's not how you win people's emotions

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Winning people's emotions. Oh You have to win the heart first by the power of the

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Spirit of God then the emotions will fall after that. But anyway So anyway last week

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We made some comments and Very quickly and I'm not gonna spend much time on this because we've got other things to get to But very quickly

07:50

Joel Webben took to the web and was talking about how he was gonna go scorched earth

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Sure on what or with what but gonna go scorched earth and just as an example

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The One of the most vile things I've seen on social media over the weekend

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Is a number of people who are now willing to mock the names of Non sacral

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Christian martyrs of the past People who have been murdered by a quote -unquote

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Christian state and so since I Have visited the place of his imprisonment did a little less than five minute video about him and then

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Josh bars on did one of his threads about Fritz Erba over the weekend as well,

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I Have discovered that there are our people on social media who are

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Literally willing they're so vile. They're literally willing to mock Fritz Erba's name

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There is one called real Fritz Erba and I'd pull it up but I blocked the moron

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But that's his whole thing and then the young man who's

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Whose meme sharing started so much of this stuff last year That moved here from Germany and went to Webbin's Church He even posted another

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Fritz Erba sacralism banger from James White on today's dividing line It's because you haven't thought about Fritz Erba for years on end that your opinion is invalid

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Real Fritz Erba back into the hole with you So, you know, we were told about how this fellow had been, you know corrected and had come to a balanced position

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No, he's still believing the same things he was believing before It's just that his church is now much more in line with where he was before and going farther.

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I think clearly But then some guy 1984 sheepdog,

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I think is what this says. It's it's abbreviated on my screenshot. So Erba verb transitive to cast a person into a pit or dungeon or severe as punishment for idiocy

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I mean the only way I can understand that is that Fritz Erba was being punished for being an idiot and of course, that's exactly what

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Sacralists would think he was a Incalcitrant rebel against the sacral order of his day

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Which required that he baptize his children what the New Testament taught what he believed the

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New Testament taught Translated by the same man who You know 20 years later would know that he was in prison in the same place where he translated the

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New Testament Do nothing about it because of view of the state church

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That makes him an idiot Now again, I I said over the weekend not a one of these people not a one of these men

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Have the courage their convictions to withstand what Fritz Erba did not a one of them not a one of them

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They would all be screaming to get out of that hole within an hour of being dropped down every single one of them

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Absolutely convinced of it But that aside this this movement is

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Going exactly where we said it would go Just faster than we expected it would and It It's not gonna end well the people involved with it

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Joel Webben posted a tweet where he said it's 2025 If you're a

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Protestant who thinks Catholics are the biggest enemy you are a fool All of Western civilization is invaded by Muslims captured by Jews perverted by sodomites ruled by women

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Our civilization is collapsing get a clue. Ah the wise one

12:22

The wise weapon wise weapon has spoken and as normal is inaccurate and what he's saying that seems to be a mark of Joel Webben anymore but First of all, are you noticing the pattern here?

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When When Joel Webben wants to cooperate with Roman Catholics, hey, we're just trying to save Western civilization and You know,

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I mean This Nick Fuentes guy, he's a savant. He's a political savant.

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He's brilliant So why shouldn't we cooperate together? He's even said he won't swear on my program and Elijah Schaefer we're gonna do we're gonna do stuff together, too

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It doesn't matter what his past is or his track record is. Oh, no. No, no, no No, we can do all this stuff and it and you're just not supposed to recognize

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What holds all this stuff together? What what's common? what's the common issue and Aside from the

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The Jews are behind everything the the world's been captured by the Jews of that put up about blah

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Aside from all of that drivel what I see and what

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I think everybody else needs to see is What you're hearing when you hear stuff like don't worry about the

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Catholics we can have Taylor Marsh Who cares if if he once was a Protestant and professed the gospel of grace and now?

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condemns it anathematizes it and prays to Mary and That's just doesn't matter

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It's the Jews people think You're a fool

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Get a clue those are all quotes What are these folks telling us very very clearly if we will just listen

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They don't have theological answers to any of this stuff anymore. Oh They still use religious language and oh,

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I still believe in justification by faith. Oh, you know, they'll use the language But what they're saying is that's not enough

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We need something else. In fact, we're gonna trust in something else. We're gonna trust in the political alliances.

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We're creating and And you know the thing about look, you know,

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I know Nick Fuentes he he drops the f -bomb Every other sentence and stuff, but he's promised he wouldn't do that on our program.

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Let me see. Let me think here just a second Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks or Out of that which fills the heart the mouth speaks

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Who said that? Oh That would be Jesus. And so if you've got a person who regularly expresses themselves in the most vile language and you think they're a political savant and And you're gonna cooperate with them what fills their heart and So what are you trying to accomplish?

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What power are you trusting it? you're trusting the power of political alignment

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You don't trust that the gospel can change anything anymore Well, I'm actually just gonna try to reach him with the gospel.

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No, you're not No, you're not That's why you didn't mind having somebody speaking at your conference that Thinks that Mary's prayers saved the thief on the cross

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See all that theology stuff is just it's window dressing it's not the substance of what you actually think is the power of God to change this world and That's what you're gonna see happening over and over and over again as As The necessary compromises to maintain the political

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Conglomerations and political treaties Require you to be more and more silent about the gospel itself

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Besides that if you've lost your confidence that the gospel can actually change hearts and minds if you've lost your confidence

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That's the only thing that's been given to the church to do that And if you've actually come to the point where the primary purpose of the gospel is to maintain the

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United States of America Then you got a real problem Got a real problem and It's just gonna

17:33

It's just it's just gonna keep on Going that direction Sadly, I just looked over at Twitter And someone said well looks like summer is over time to put up the

17:45

Christmas decorations We're just we're just hoping

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I'm not sure if it's actually gonna happen. But but according to According to my weather

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Program that I use in my backyard and my weather thingy me Bobby Bobby No, man, they keep changing things rat

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Tomorrow well tomorrow and Thursday are supposed to be below 100 degrees the high 98 and 99 now you go 98 99

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Hey, we live in Phoenix 98 is below 100 And you're just happy about that.

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In fact the highest I see This is actually after I leave 105.

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So Yeah that hey, no complaints from us at that But I'm not sure about the

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Christmas decorations because honestly you still put anything up in Phoenix right now By time

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Christmas comes along all the red green bulbs They'll all be white Okay, well now the

18:57

UV the UV would just bleach all the Paint right off those those lights because we're talking about the old style lights here now

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I'm not talking about all those fancy dancy things that people have now Anyway, all right.

19:10

Let's let's leave all that depressing stuff behind for now. Just just keep watching and Ask yourself a question

19:18

I do often think about this these people talk all the time about Christendom and the great tragedy of What Doug Wilson calls

19:29

Christendom 1 .0 because he says we don't want Christendom 1 .0. We're on Christendom 2 .0 Yeah, you know what?

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It sounds like these guys would be happy with 1 .0 But here's the problem with Christendom period it has no

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Christ in it. There's no Christ in it If you don't have the gospel if you don't have changed hearts, it's not

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Christendom it's Religiondom you call it what you want, but it's not Christendom because Christ isn't king in the hearts and lives the people that live under that system and that becomes a mockery of the

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Christian faith and a mockery of Christ true rulership because it's

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You're replacing The very work of the Spirit of God and changing hearts and minds the mockery but For the

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PC the problem is Just as the Puritans worked toward a greater future and Didn't turn out in many of the institutions they and almost all the institutions they founded

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But they did it for the glory of Christ and that's why we benefit from their writings to this day um

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They had a much longer view than the current crop of wild -eyed an on army using social media

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Folks who won't be remembered ten years from now other than the mess they cause They had a long -term view and that's why their material is still useful to us to this day really is anyway, um

21:20

Got it. I just got to put I got it like minimize Just as minimized

21:25

Twitter I'll leave the radar up because we've got some we've got some pretty decent storms coming up from the south right now

21:34

You got your windows down that's they're not close enough for that yet but I'm just seeing a whole lot of lightning and a whole lot of red and orange and Those things hold together.

21:45

We could have an interesting evening up here. So there's still Couple hours of warming left with the

21:52

Sun. So we'll see. We'll see what heads our direction Okay It's been a couple days, but I want to get back to looking at Liberating Romans from reformed captivity a critical evaluation of Calvinism's interpretation of Paul's letter

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Which it's none of those things actually Should be something along the lines of How to turn

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Romans into a man -centered gospel by quoting every disparate contradictory

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Source, you can possibly cram into one book. That's be either way to put it

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Anyway last time we were together I had

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Read the section however, there is strong exegetical basis For challenging the

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Reformed reading of Romans 8 28 to 30 and I had said at the time. Well, it shouldn't just be 8 28 to 30

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It really needs to go on through at least 34 and But we need to see this exegetical

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Foundation and that's what we're gonna be looking for and Then I read this Romans 8 specifically highlights the divine initiative accomplishment and consummation of salvation for all believers

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What I emphasize we were wrapping up the program last time, but I want to make sure you understand when you read provisionist material the autonomy of the human will in the exercise of faith so the denial that faith is the gift of God the denial that Regeneration is necessary for faith that faith and repentance are gifts from God.

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All that is denied Everyone has the capacity in and of themselves whether it's by prevenient grace or some other unbiblical

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Phrase like that, which it certainly is Every man has the capacity in of themselves

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To exercise saving faith and so man is the final decider of who is and who is not saved

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How God has knowledge of that from eternity past Is going to vary from provisionist provisionist

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You've got some Molinus out there and some simple foreknowledge people and let's just be honest

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The vast majority just haven't even thought about it or don't really care to one way or the other But the key thing is the term believer believer believer believer now what they have to explain is

24:42

Yeah, the last time that was that particular phraseology was used was back in Romans 5 and It's not used in Romans 8 it doesn't appear again until the end of Romans 9 where it's a contrast again between Seeking God's grace and forgiveness by works or by faith so Romans 8 doesn't use this terminology you just have to assume it and Run with it from there and Obviously what

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Paul is doing is providing in Romans chapter 8 the

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Eternal foundation That Brings about this situation of Really the redemption of all of the created order through Christ to the glory of God the

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Father the Son God the Holy Spirit various roles they're all Romans 8 is a very

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Trinitarian chapter obviously but The focus of Romans 8 is

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God's glory Not man's control of salvation, but that's what the provisionist has turned into Because there is no control of salvation by God all

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God's freedom in provisionism is limited to what he will promise to do for the person who freely chooses to believe

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He can't choose who's going to do that. He there's no deadness and sin There's no it's not the valley of the the bones.

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It's it's not the stone heart None of that stuff all that stuff.

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You you have a completely Semi Pelagian anthropology, that's why they're so sensitive to that issue

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Remember we read some of the Wilson quotes before this about a Neutral will as if there is such a thing

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I mean talk about a category that scripture knows nothing about at all. Um, that's that's what you get from from Ken Wilson So you'll notice it goes on from the perspective of Romans as a whole

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Paul continues in Romans 8 to expound upon the implications of justification by faith for the believer

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See So this is the implications for the believer the believer is autonomous the believer is the one who who chooses these things

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Anybody could do it God cannot effectively and efficiently call now.

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It does seem somewhat contradictory because You know like flowers will say that that god, um hardened the jews for a particular purpose at a particular time

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He may just say that's just that was just the one instance To bring about the crucifixion or something along those lines

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I don't know But everybody has this power Um But then you have the idea of choice meats and the idea of choice meats making themselves choice meats is a little bit confusing, but There you go

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But there it is The implications of justification by faith for the believer there can't be anything before that Except that's what

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Romans 8 is actually about Romans 8 is actually about What brings about the situation?

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Where someone can have faith? and How can someone who's a slave to sin the beginning of Romans chapter 8 unable to do what's pleasing to god?

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How can they come to the position where God causes all things to work together for the good for them that love god for them who are the called

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According to his purpose now, I you know We're gonna look for the exegesis.

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We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna search for it. See if we can we can find it but Here's the overriding assertions being made straight.

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Yeah being made straight up front and so This is not the implications of justification by faith for the believer

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This is what the triune god father son. Holy spirit do For their own glory

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Not the glory of man not the glory of believers The term believer doesn't even appear in romans chapter 8

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It's just not there look it up It's not there um

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No one notices The fight and each functioning is justification

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For the final claim conclusion of paul in verses 31 to 39 no one can prevail against the believer

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And no one or nothing can separate the believer from the love of god Isn't that amazing

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Isn't that amazing how you can have such a strong traditional commitment? To the mechanism you've developed to get around the sovereignty of god

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To get around the sole glory of god That you can insert it so that it's a part of the text itself

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Because that's not what romans 8 says romans 8 the focus

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Anyone just reading the text Is on god

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In christ by the spirit It's triune. It's god's power

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Everything in the in the golden chain is what god does In none of the things in the golden chain is he dependent upon man's cooperation

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It's the extension of his grace his power his purpose we are the objects of grace and mercy

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Not the determiners of what grace and mercy can do So it is truly a testament

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To the power of tradition To to listen to how these these people can change the text

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To fit it into their paradigm I mentioned um last night church.

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I've preached the past four weeks And i'm sure the folks at apology are going to be very happy that i'm leaving before next sunday

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Um I i've done I did the prologue of John, I did the prologue of first john and then followed up with the next section of first john last night

31:54

And um incredible text and lord is Laura's please a lot of folks seem to really be challenged by last night's uh

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Exposition but one of the things I mentioned was the story that again told many many times over the years 24 years ago or was it 20 am

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I might have been more than 25 years ago now. I forget what the date was algo would know. Um Of the interview that I did

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I might have been even as early as 98 When I interviewed dave hunt on kpxq.

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I was filling in for marty mento and Dave called it a debate.

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It wasn't a debate but I asked him about john chapter six.

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He gave this Surface level shallow response And I said to him

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I said dave That's just your tradition speaking And remember what his answer was

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I'm, sure we have a recording of this someplace It's on the sermon audio channel, okay. All right.

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I haven't heard it. I don't think i've I don't think i've heard it since we I did it honestly Um Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but no

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I remember this because I wrote it down I still have the pad of paper Over there in my office that I had in the studio that day

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That thing is that sounds about right because because that prompted uh

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Writing what love is this? So yeah, um, it was late 90s probably anyway

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He he just honestly said to me and I know dave believed this He said james.

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I have no tradition I have no tradition And Down through the years

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I have used that as an example Of just how

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Powerful Our commitment to a tradition can be So much so that it becomes the equivalent of the word of god to us

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We can't distinguish between our tradition and the word of god itself I mentioned again last night obviously still thinking about Those categories in the sermon last night

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We have in first john We deceive ourselves. We say we have no sin. We deceive ourselves um self -deception

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Is Powerful And it's something we should

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Regularly pray to be delivered from because You know paul warns us that the greek term is planato

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To lead astray and paul warns us

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About others leading us astray See to it that no one Takes you captive leads you astray that's a warning that he

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Repeats a number of different times It's one thing to be led astray by someone else

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It's another thing to do it to yourself It's easier to recognize when it's coming from outside of you.

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It's much more difficult to recognize When you are the source of self -deception

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When you're being led astray by your own lusts and desires and commitments, whatever it might be

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Uh, and that's what you see here um You know, no one can prevail against the believer actually no one can prevail

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Against the god who Foreknows predestines calls justifies and glorifies that that's the

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That's the foundation Of What follows after all the

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Death or life or principality? Nothing can You know, nothing can separate us from the love of christ

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Nakedness peril sword none of these things why? because I'm a believer

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Because i've enabled god to do certain things for me. That's what they really think it's saying

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When it's just so obvious that what it actually Is saying is that None of these things can separate us from the love of christ because christ has died in our place and there are seeds before us for the father who has

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Foreknown predestined called justified and glorified. It's all about god. They're all divine acts

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They weren't enabled by mankind You cannot create a stable consistent theology

36:57

Out of a mess like that, it's just not possible. So so we don't just push the easy believe button

37:04

Yeah, uh easy staples Nope that's what you do and everything else flows naturally from that Okay, uh

37:16

We continue on here So I didn't mark this but all of romans 8 is about the believer in christ

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Not about it's right right here in case you're looking for Um, oh wait a minute There now it's highlighted.

37:35

Uh All of romans 8 is about the believer in christ. No all of romans 8

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Is about the triune god That provides perfect salvation for his people to his own glory.

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This is the this is the essence of the division We've said it from the beginning

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God -centeredness versus man -centeredness and this is laid out. It's right in front of us It's being stated plainly

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You start with man You reason upward from your conclusions about man to god.

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That's provisionism The bible you start with god god tells you who he is

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And you go from there to see who man is There there isn't any way to put these two things together

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They are fundamentally different, uh, they they really really are so, um

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What you're not gonna find You're gonna see a lot of stuff here.

38:43

Like let's just go ahead and Let's let's let's go ahead and just read some of this so you can see what we're looking at Because again what

38:51

I would invite you to do Is uh, I have published a work it this the focus was not

39:04

Specifically on this text, but it was on justification So pick this up Um, I don't think

39:17

Anybody was calling themselves a provisionist when this was published. I I I don't know when that term

39:26

First started being used, but I didn't hear it till about 2014 maybe

39:32

Somewhere around there and the copyright in this book is 2001 Okay So here's a book that I published

39:41

Well, I didn't publish but I was published published but um just under 400 pages in length

39:48

Um Here's what I present as exegesis

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And in fact the I think it's 32 page chapter On James chapter 2 in this book is still some of the best work i've ever done exegetically

40:08

I've never had anyone write a refutation of it that i'm aware of I mean algo mentioned some guy

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I had totally forgotten that this guy even existed That guy's scary.

40:26

Uh, he really is but um when he mentioned his name I was like, oh my goodness What that guy could have done with twitter

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How social media could have absolutely Amplified his utter looniness. Uh, yow, yow, yow, yow.

40:42

It was bad enough in irc back then but I've never seen anyone, right any type of substantive um refutation

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To my chapter on james chapter 2 and Um justification my works faith out works is dead

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Etc. Etc. I've never seen it It's been out there for for 24 years

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But I have never seen a response to it This is what I present to you as what i'm talking about when

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I say exegesis letting the text speak The text becomes the central affirmation

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We want to understand what it meant By the original author to the original audience first and foremost

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And then make application today. I emphasized that even last night That that's what we need to do to honor god and to honor his word so There's an example.

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I mean I can give you other examples, but There's your example So that's what we're looking for in dr.

41:58

Allen's book so Let's see if if he can give us clarity of expression and exegesis

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So let's pick up here. All romans 8 is about the believer in christ. This is evidenced by the inclusio structure of verses 1 and 39 romans 8 1 therefore

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Now there is no condemnation for those who are in christ. Jesus romans 8 39 For i am convinced that neither death nor life nor anything else

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In all creation will be able to separate us from the love of god that is in christ. Jesus our lord Notice the semantic parallels between these two verses

42:34

No condemnation parallels. Nothing can separate us from the love of god Okay, sort of there are categories however in uh condemnation

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That are not reiterated by paul when he lists the things that Might try to separate us from love of god

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And the phrase in christ. Jesus meaning those vitally in christ through faith not through god's election

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Not through the work of the spirit of god not through regeneration Concludes each verse the focus the entire chapter is on those who are in christ.

43:16

Jesus. Did you catch that? Do you see that? Just stop right here. You see the leap there

43:23

The focus the entire chapter is on those who are in christ. Jesus if what you mean by that Is that paul is not addressing

43:32

The fate of unbelievers the state of unbelievers Things like that, okay, he's talking about the ministry of the spirit of god he's talking about um, actually there's a whole bunch in romans 8 about the whole creation groaning and In light of the fall of man and stuff like that But he says this is a crucial contextual point paul's addressing the topic of the life of the believer

43:59

As all the major external commentaries on romans note. Well He is addressing the topic

44:08

Of the expression of god's electing grace and power The role of christ as mediator and the work of the spirit of god in the life of the believer

44:20

You can't take the actual central affirmation

44:26

And make it secondary To a word that doesn't appear in romans 8

44:34

Remember believer doesn't appear It's not a part of romans 8 but god the father jesus the son spirit predestination

44:47

That's all there But believer isn't and yet we're supposed to take that as the guiding and controlling uh aspect so when when when for example romans 8 39, um

45:06

I'm convinced the death or life nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of god

45:11

That is in christ. Jesus our lord It's the love of god. It's christ. Jesus our lord. That's central not us

45:18

We're the passive recipient We're not in control We're not determining that the love of god

45:26

And the work of lord. Jesus christ will be effective because we choose to allow them to be Again, this is reading this we read the scriptures

45:36

Completely differently not a little bit differently 180 degrees differently. That's big

45:45

That's really big when when people say we just all need to get along what the problem is We've got to be able to deliver a coherent message to the world outside and we're reading the same words 180 degrees differently

45:58

He was oh, that's why you can't have a solo scripture. Oh, yeah. Sure. Great So bringing the inquisition along and that'll somehow solve the problem

46:05

You know someone actually reads this text correctly really concerned about what the original author meant You burn up the stake and that's somehow going to fix something

46:12

No, don't think so And so all the major exegetical commentaries will note

46:20

That paul is addressing The life of the spirit the work of the spirit

46:27

And the effect of the of the work of the father father and son In the lives of the elect.

46:33

Yes But they do not make the provisionist assertion That it is the autonomous free will choice

46:42

Of believers that determines the range of god's actions And what god can and cannot do?

46:52

Oh goodness. Okay in the greek text of romans 8 the fifth paragraph romans 8 28 -30 semantically provides the fifth justification for the claim conclusion romans 8 31 -39

47:03

Romans 8 31 -39 is divided into two paragraphs 8 31 -34 8 35 -39. Well, that happens to be true, by the way

47:10

And 8 31 -34 In my opinion is david allens waterloo

47:16

Um, I do not believe he can give a consistent. He he cannot walk through that text

47:24

And substantiate his position directly from the text itself. He just can't do it Each paragraph functions to make a claim that is based on romans 8 1 through 30

47:35

Okay Paul continues to develop the implications of what has preceded in the way he introduces verse 31

47:42

What then shall we say to these things? So, yeah

47:48

Since god has foreknown predestined called Justified glorified since it's god who's done all these things

47:57

Mankind is not active in any of this. These are all divine actions What then shall we say these things?

48:07

This is more than a rhetorical question. These things can be taken either refer to 5 1 through 8 30 or 1 16 to 8 30

48:16

No, uh It's the immediately preceding Summary statement of the golden chain.

48:23

What shall we say to what god has done? If god before us who can be against us?

48:32

So and he's going to identify the us as the elect of gods so This is very straightforward, but you're not going to get that from alan not reading this

48:44

Why not it's right there on the text well because that doesn't You know why

48:50

Why does the leftist media? show you Uh a burning building and say it's a mostly peaceful protest, you know, it just Doesn't fit the narrative.

49:00

So we're not gonna we're not gonna go there So The structure of romans 8 20 to 30 is as follows paul makes a claim god works out all things for good to those who love god uh the rest says

49:14

For those who are the called according to his purpose The claim receives its justification verses 20 and 30 what god has now watch this watch this

49:26

What god has purposed? For believers is that all things work for their good.

49:33

Oh, really? Really? So that that's the purpose

49:40

For believers, so you determine whether this could be true of you by your free will autonomous act, right?

49:48

Uh, let's let's hmm Let's uh, let's let's let's check that out. Shall we?

49:54

And we know That To the ones loving god all things were together for the good

50:07

Twice caught up prothesin clay toys usin for those

50:13

Who are the called? according

50:20

To his purpose so the his purpose

50:27

Is what brings about the calling? His purpose is what brings about the calling

50:38

You see there is no purpose of god at that level in provisionism The purpose of god is limited

50:46

To what he can be allowed to do By the will of man god does not have the freedom

50:54

To save whom he will To give grace to whom he will he has to give grace to everybody equally

51:02

Remember we saw earlier he's saying god does is trying to save everyone equally we read that earlier remember

51:08

So once you say that Then you are putting putting yourself squarely

51:15

In the camp That says that there that election on god's part

51:26

Is not the foundation of regeneration Or anything else

51:34

Everything is based upon the will of man. Everything's based upon the will of man so If you look at twice kata prothesin clay toys usin what is being said there is the calling

51:49

And and this is this is what results in anybody loving god We love god why?

51:56

Because he first loved us That doesn't even fit the provisionist perspective provisionist perspective is we love god because we chose to No, no, no, it's because but wait a minute.

52:07

He loved everybody equally right So the person who doesn't love

52:14

Was still loved equally to you But that love can't be effective it can't actually change anything because it's all up to us but For those who are called according to his purpose

52:29

That final phrase The calling is according to his purpose that calling is effective.

52:35

That's the same calling that we are going to Notice here.

52:43

We have clay toys so clay toys is the Is an adjective is a substantival adjective and then down below when we have predestined these he called

52:57

So that's kaleo. That's the verbal form and so That's something god does

53:06

This is expression of god's power and The the calling that is here in verse 28

53:15

Is based on god's purpose Not man's purpose there is no

53:23

I don't even see how that fits into provisionism, but There you go

53:29

So yeah, no, that's not uh what you have uh in uh in The text there

53:36

Uh back to here Um Oh, I guess

53:44

I have to do this to get it that's one thing about kindle is it changes all the where everything is um

53:54

Where to go Do do do do do do do Manly approves justification these things

54:03

Yeah, okay what it's not even the same place in the page it was before but so that's why it's hard to find it

54:09

What god has purposed for believers is that all things work for their good? No, what god has god's purpose brought about their calling

54:19

We just saw that that is a misunderstanding of the text Three syntactical

54:26

Options are possible ponta all things may be functioning as the subject the verb sooner guy work together as expressed in esv

54:33

God is a subject but ponta functioning syntactically as an accusative respect as in the niv God is a subject causes all things ponta accusative direct object to work for your good as in the nsb

54:43

There is little appreciable difference in meaning regardless of which option is chosen. All that's fun could have been in a footnote but I'll just suggest that sometimes

54:52

Dr. Allen fills The lack of substantive exegesis with observations that really don't have any meaning

55:01

Sounds good I mean you get to use big words and stuff like that, but doesn't actually end up meaning it

55:07

Paul speaks of god's purpose here for believe for believers as evidenced by his use of toys agapos and tom leon those who love god and Those called according to his purpose verses 29 30 introduced with his abordant conjunctive.

55:22

Wait a minute He didn't He didn't explain The phrase we just point out

55:29

He Gave a context for understanding it to not have anything to do with divine prerogative, but he didn't explain why

55:37

This is what I mean You make an argument you make an assertion, but there was no dealing with what the text actually says you just pass by it

55:47

Versus 29 30 introduced with a subordinate conjunction hati indicating these verses modify the dominant semantic information conveyed in verse 28 syntactically and semantically verses 29 to 30 are subordinate to verse 28 and provide the justification for the claim made in verse 28 well

56:05

Um, it's a continuation of the thought Yes It's a substantiation of the thought um

56:15

Something the verse 29 30 provides support for verse 28 as a whole while others limit its modifications a specific promise

56:20

So all things work for good or to the word purpose realization of god's purpose and individual believers

56:27

Is the bedrock of the hope of glory? No, it's the fact that god's purpose will be accomplished Is the bedrock of the hope of glory?

56:37

That's where it comes from Is that the god who? Foreknows and predestines

56:44

Is going to save his people in and through christ. Jesus You you have to continually

56:52

Be inserting this this loop the provisionist loop Always going back to well, but it's about believers.

56:58

It's about believers about believers And we're we're like, you know faith isn't a gift to god. No. No man's not dead in sin Believers believe it's it's this loop uh

57:09

Sherwood pointed out that paul's use the demonstrative plural pronoun those in verse 28 Is a reference to believers about whom paul has been speaking throughout the pericope

57:19

Of romans 8 18 through 30 except that he never addresses believers in romans 8 18 through 30 with that word

57:28

Yes, all this is what it's about the spirit of god working with god's people

57:35

But it's not about quote unquote believers. They're the ones who are called right?

57:42

They are That's an expression of divine power those who before knew these he predestined those who predestined he called

57:51

It's personal. It's direct. It's specific The those of verse 29a are the those of verse 28.

57:58

It is those whom god is actively pursuing his purpose Whom god is actually pursuing his purposes which in the full context of the paragraph are eschatological

58:07

To be conformed the image of his son. There you go. There you go. This we're gonna have to Mark this one out here

58:15

And hopefully I can remember whoa, what are you doing? There you go. Uh, hopefully I can remember to uh pop in at this point

58:26

Which in the full context of the paragraph are eschatological To be conformed the image of his son is there eschatological results of god's selection and choosing of the elect.

58:37

Yes, of course but We are being conformed the image of his son even now

58:46

We will be perfectly conformed to his image And the only ones who will ever be conformed the image of the son are those who are forgiven those who

58:58

Have their sins covered Those who are adopted Those who are chosen

59:05

In christ jesus to receive salvation Which includes the benefits thereof faith repentance

59:14

So on so forth, but again Once you start with your conclusion, then you read it into everything

59:20

That you're going to be going along so um Yeah, i'm just we'll just read this and we'll pick up with this next time

59:29

The focus of romans 8 28 to 30 is not on how the elect become elect But on how believers who are the chosen ones have assurance and confidence

59:41

There you go There's the assertion Will it be proven from the text? No, it's just going to be asserted.

59:47

It's none of this is derived from the text You're not going to walk through the text and come to that conclusion

59:54

But it's absolutely necessary to put this here To try to avoid the natural reading of the text

01:00:01

That is very much focused on god's foreknowing and god's uh

01:00:09

Predestining and god's calling That's that's everything god does but no Since that's not true of revisionism, then you have to introduce this disjunction

01:00:18

And we will lord willing pick up with that uh next time around Okay, uh, there you go.

01:00:27

Um, so it looks right now like um

01:00:34

The next time we will be able to get together Is on wednesday

01:00:41

And then it's going to be next week, uh, probably

01:00:47

I would assume monday um Yeah, probably september 1st labor day actually, um

01:00:57

I'll be in I think that's oklahoma Is that oklahoma?

01:01:02

Yeah, oklahoma by that point in time and uh, hopefully have good enough, uh

01:01:10

Internet connection to be able to do a program on on the first so, uh Yeah afternoon of wednesday, probably three ish something like that and um

01:01:22

Busy busy busy busy busy week But hopefully i'll have this computer with me. So all my markings will be there

01:01:27

Well, I marked it in kindle so it would come up on it would even come up on my phone or something like that Uh to be able to go that direction with it.

01:01:33

So that is what we will We will do thanks. Well, let me just say um

01:01:40

I don't know if you've noticed Uh gas prices ain't very low right now. I don't know

01:01:46

We may drill baby drill but may have a long -term effect, but It can only happen so fast and um

01:01:55

So i'm looking at 359 right now for diesel Most places and at least here in phoenix.

01:02:02

It gets a little bit better when you get toward texas Uh, it's a little bit cheaper there but um and you know um

01:02:11

RV parks aren't free. They're not They cost less than a hotel room. I can guarantee you that much these days.

01:02:18

Wow uh, but um travel fund at aomin .org We need your help to do this traveling.

01:02:25

This is a long one long long long one and uh, so pray for traveling mercies pray for no

01:02:31

Um Major repair bills along the way Um things like that Uh, that's how we get around these days and we appreciate those of you who help us to be able to do that And uh looking forward to the debates and well debate conversation dialogue, whatever you want to call the other one and all the speaking of the various churches and conferences,

01:02:53

I think it's going to be a uh, especially in uh, tennessee in nashville Uh anytime you got eli ayala and jason lyle, uh together, uh, you're going to have some uh, incredible insights being shared so That should be exciting if you

01:03:10

Uh are in that area. Don't don't pass up that opportunity. It doesn't doesn't happen very often.