Debate Matt Slick David Robinson (LDS), Does the Bible teach salvation by faith or works?

My name is Russell East, serving as station manager for AMA 20, Christian Radio, 1039 and 95 .3

Truth Network. It's a pleasure to be with you this afternoon, and so I just want to encourage you, after the debate's over, to join us across the street from Weber State at 3701

Harrison Boulevard, where we will continue the discussion. We have a little bit of pizza coming over, and so a little bit of refreshments, and just some more time, additional time to talk about the things in this afternoon's debate.

So you're all welcome to join us there. I want to get my phone number out, because at the end of the debate, there'll be some time for you to ask a question.

So I'm going to give you my number, so you can text me the question, and then I'll just read them as I get them.

So I'll give this number again, but the number is 801 -645 -7433.

And so you can say if it's for Matt or for David, just designate that in your question.

That number again is 801 -645 -7433. So if I could direct your attention to your program, does anybody need a program?

Does everybody have one? I'll direct your attention there. By way of introduction, I'll start that in just a moment.

I'll start it off with a little bit of introductions. Then I'll pray, and then we'll turn things over to start things up with Matt.

Okay, so our first participant in this afternoon's debate is Matt Slick.

He's the radio host of Matt Slick Live. It's a nationally syndicated radio program. He's the founder and president of CARM, Christian Apologetics and Research Ministries, and Counterculture Ministry.

David Robinson has served two full -time missions for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. He's served 27 years as a tour guide at the

Church History Museum. I just wanted to mention that David is not speaking formally as a representative of the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, but he will be presenting the viewpoints of the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints. So, as to the rules, you can see on the program,

I'll be trying to do my best to keep track of times and so forth, so it should be a very good time to get some good perspectives here on what the

Bible teaches. As you can see, our title for the debate is, Does the Bible Teach Salvation is by Faith Alone or by Works?

So, with that, let me pray, and then we'll begin this afternoon's debate.

Let's pray. Lord, thank you for giving us this time. Thank you for the friends and family that have gathered here today.

Lord, this time is committed to you for your glory, so please intervene and speak to us through your word.

Speak to us this afternoon, make things clear, and help us to keep talking and asking questions and getting to the bottom of this very important question.

We commit this to you in Jesus' name. Amen. And with that, let's welcome both of our participants,

Matt Sleg and David Robinson. And Matt, we'll go ahead and have you begin with a five -minute introduction.

Hello. How are you all doing out there? Good. Great. How are you doing?

I've got two questions. How many of you listen to me on the radio? Oh, yeah. Do I sound or look like what

I sound like? Yes. One guy said I'm supposed to be about this tall, fat, big glasses and bald head.

So my last name really is Slick. I was born with it and learned to run as a kid. I've moved 40 times in my life, and I did apologetics.

I started back in 1980, just want to let you know. And I want to quote to you, and I paraphrase a little bit, but I want to quote to you what got me started in apologetics.

What got me started 44 years ago. I was at a Bible study, and I met this friend,

I'm still friends with him, his name is Charlie Spine. So Slick and Spine used to hang out. And he wrote this poem.

In all these affidavits, in all these indictments, it is all the devil, all corruption, false swears, all hell boiled over.

You burning mountains roll down, your lava for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast than ever any man had.

I've been Lord of keeping church together since the days of Adam, neither John, Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did such a work as I.

The followers of Christ ran away from him, but my followers, Latter -day Saints, never ran away from me. That was Joseph Smith, History of the

Church, volume 6, page 408 -409. I got so mad at that quote, I snatched the paper out of this guy's hand.

And I said, who said this? And he said, Joseph Smith. I said, who's that? And he said, the founder of Mormonism.

And I said, well, Mormons are Christians, but this guy's not. He said, no, they're not Christians. And I said, yes, they are. He said, no, they're not. I said, why aren't they?

And he told me what they believed. And I went, what? That started me studying. So now, the CARM website, how many have been to the

CARM website? Okay. Yesterday, it hit 163 million visitors.

Wow. 163 million. So, Christian Apologetics Research Ministry. And I'm going to tell you something.

I'm autistic. I have Asperger's. And so the reason I bring it up is because it makes me write very succinctly to the point.

You want to know what the Trinity is? You go there, you get it, and that much. You have to read 18 pages. And finally, the

Trinity is. And you're not. So you can go, and you can read, you can check it out, okay? So go to CARM .org.

C -A -R -M dot O -R -G. I've written nine books, some science fiction stuff. And I've also written a humor book, which

I, if you guys are just like, how many single guys we got in here? Single guys? Okay, get my book, How to Woo and Win Women by Being an

Obnoxious Jerk. It's on Amazon. It's on Amazon. No research necessary.

I'm natural. It's all there. It's a great book. You can check it out. And I've been on radio about 21 years now.

So, doing that. Love debates. And I'm constantly, constantly on the internet.

Discord, PalTalk, Clubhouse, Facebook. Dealing with, no offense meant to cults.

I deal with Roman Catholicism and its apostasy. I deal with Eastern Orthodoxy and its apostasy. And I talk about what the soteriological monergistic truth is of the scriptures based on the

Trinitarian essence. I talk about that and other isms and istics. I love big words.

Particularly when you're on a date with your wife and you say something, hey, you know, you say, so let's get going. And she goes, shh, shh, shh.

So, I like big words. I'll be using a few. But if I do, I will tell you what they mean. All right, sound good?

You guys ready? Ready. Want me to edit that for you?

Okay. Hello, everyone.

Hello. I can imagine that some of you have asked yourselves, just who would be dumb enough to debate Matt Slick?

Yeah. Well, here I am. And I've been asking myself that same question. So, I'd like to thank the

Rocio Christie Club for putting this debate together. Weber State University for hosting, Russi's for moderating,

Matt Slick for traveling so far for this, and all of you for being here tonight. Now, as far as this debate is concerned,

I have to admit, I feel like a little kid who's been out playing sandlot baseball who suddenly got called straight to the big leagues.

And don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't debate religion much. I just never had a debate with actual rules.

You see, some of my debates were judged on who could yell the loudest, and at times, I've done really good.

But don't worry. My wife made me promise I'd be on my best behavior tonight. Even still,

I might get a little excited and my eyeballs will get big. I will not be as eloquent in my speech as Mr.

Slick. In fact, at times tonight, some of you might even think that I'm quite the, well, to keep it biblical, you might think that I'm just like Balaam's cocky ass, and I'm okay with that.

So, I have a lot of friends who are evangelical Christians, including ministers.

So, what I have to say tonight is not an attack on any of you or your love and faith in Jesus Christ, but it is an attack on the man -made philosophy of Solacidae, faith alone, and some of the false teachings that evolved from that faith alone philosophy.

So, are we saved by faith alone or works? Is this as if it has to be one or the other? And what are we saved from?

Well, there's two deaths, the physical and spiritual, and they're both covered by grace. But through the atonement of Christ, the physical death has been taken care of, and then everyone will now be resurrected.

The spiritual death, which determines our eternal reward, it requires some effort on our part.

So, the physical death was taken care of over 2 ,000 years ago. Jesus took upon Him the sins of the world, while on the cross

He said, it is finished. He broke the chains of death and hell, allowing everyone to be resurrected.

This is His free gift of grace. Jesus is 100 % responsible for this.

There's nothing you or I can say or do to accept it or reject it or to merit it.

We cannot attend the temple. You cannot accept Jesus as your personal Savior. It's His free gift.

Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. In 1 Timothy 2, the Apostle Paul says that God will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

In chapter 4, he says that God is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe.

So, just like the title of my favorite Clint Eastwood movie, everyone will be resurrected. The good, the bad, and the ugly, which gives me hope.

Now, some have confused this gift of grace, and they made up a mathematical theorem. A plus B equals

C. Faith plus alone equals salvation. It's called the faith alone philosophy.

And while it's a popular tradition, it is anything but biblical. Now, that would have you to believe that by faith alone, salvation, and media, nothing else you can do.

Oh, and us Mormons, we're going to work our way to heaven, as if I have that kind of power. Faith and belief are essential, but it's not an end all.

We still need to repent and be baptized, obey the commandments, and repent some more. Our spiritual salvation is a process that we need to continue and endure, not when it's convenient, but to the end, through trials and tribulations, knowing that it's after we do the will of God that we receive our reward.

Now, because we're judged and rewarded by our works, we teach to be good and do good.

And while I seek to be justified, I want a good and honest heart. Because there are so many scriptures that say that we can believe and still fall away, we need more than just faith alone.

We need to add to that faith so we don't fall away. Oh, I've got time.

Thank you. Okay, well, there's a good chance that I may offend someone tonight, or some too.

So whether you like my charming personality or lack thereof, it doesn't matter.

Tonight's debate is not about who is right, it's about what is right. So please judge the truth on the message given, not on the messenger given.

Thank you. At this time, we'll have

Matt give a 15 -minute presentation statement, followed by a four -minute rebuttal by David.

Well, thank you for coming. I really appreciate it. And I hope this is edifying, and I hope it glorifies

God as a 43 -7. Can't hear you. Can't hear me? No. Use this one?

Test it. This is what we're using then, Charlie? Are you working it? What's that?

Test one, two? There we go. Sound good? Better. Keep talking. Better? All right, we'll do this one.

If you speak into that mic there, then you can be as well. I'll do that there. Okay. All right, so I do want to thank everybody for coming.

And I know it's an inconvenient time on a Friday, but that's just how it worked out. What I'm going to do is read my opening statement, and there'll be more in front of you later on.

So our topic is, Does the Bible Teach Salvation is by Faith or it Works?

So this is an incredibly important topic because it deals with the nature and extent of the atoning work and capability of God in flesh,

Jesus Christ. Now, the Bible is the topic, not the Book of Mormon or the Koran or feelings or anything else.

Not the trustworthiness of anything like that. It's just what does the Bible say? I assert that the Bible teaches that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone, and that adding works to salvation is a false gospel.

And it results in damnation. I assert that adding works to achieve salvation is in and of itself damnable.

Now, in order for us to get through this, we've got to define our terms. I always tell people on the radio, what do you mean by this? Define terms, define terms.

The Bible is that set of books, 66, 39 in the Old Testament, 27 in the

New. Salvation is being delivered from the righteous judgment of God, and this includes forgiveness of all of our sins, justification, and ultimately dwelling eternally with God in peace.

This is for His glory. It is not, as some say, merely physical resurrection.

Faith is, in the context of our debate, faith is the intellectual, emotional, and spiritual trust that a person has in the work of Jesus on the cross.

Now, by the way, just so you know, God grants that we have faith, Philippians 1, 29, and that faith is in Christ, John 6, 29.

He gives it to whom He desires. Works, again, in the context of our debate, is the actions that are done by individuals, usually according to the

Old Testament law. Loving God, loving your neighbor, not lying, not stealing, not committing adultery, being good, doing things like that.

Alright, we can get into a lot about that, about this issue quite a bit, but we don't have time here.

So, what does the Bible say? Do we obtain salvation by faith or works? Now notice, the topic is not a combination of faith and works.

It is faith or works. I'm very technical, and so it's either this or that. However, if you're going to have works, you also have faith.

Okay, so I'm going to grant that. I'm not going to get into the minutia, but I'll grant that in relation to this topic, this salvation, that those who do good works also have faith in God.

Alright. But is it our faith combined with our works that gets us saved, or is it our faith alone in God that gets us saved?

Alright. Let's find out. What does the Bible say? In Acts 16, 30 -31, the

Philippian jailer asked, What must I do to be saved? Paul, in silence, answered, Believe in the

Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household. In Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, but as the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3, 5. This is a critical verse. A lot of people should memorize Titus 3, 5. He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness.

This is something Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox teach, and other groups. But he did this according to his mercy.

2 Timothy 1, 9. Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.

And 1 Peter 1, 9. Obtaining as an outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Clearly, the Bible teaches salvation by faith without works. That's what it says. That's what it says.

Alright. Now, justification is a part of salvation.

Justification is a legal standing before God. Now, in Romans 5, 9, Paul relates, he connects justification and salvation.

He says, much more than having now been justified by his blood, we will be saved from the wrath of God through him.

So justification and salvation are connected. Justification is a legal standing according to the law.

Salvation is being delivered through the righteous judgment of God. They both have to occur. They're concomitant.

That means that they are related and simultaneous. Alright. Romans 4, 1 -5.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh, is found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he is to make a boast about but not before God.

For what does the scripture say? Abraham believed God and it was credited to his righteousness.

Not to the one who works. His wage is not credited as a favor but what is due. But to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly.

His faith is credited as righteousness. There it is. There it is.

Amen. Romans 3 -28. Amen. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

The works of the law are summarized by Jesus in Matthew 22, 37 -40 when he says,

Love God, love your neighbor. It's a summation of all things. Quoting Deuteronomy 6 -5 and Leviticus 19 -18.

18 -19? In the Old Testament, respectively. Galatians 2 -16 says,

Nevertheless, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now note what Paul does. He contrasts faith and works. He says it's not this, it's this.

Done. Done. If you want to add works, if you don't have the true gospel,

I'll show you why a little bit later. So, clearly, that's what the

Bible says. Now, at this point, I want to introduce a concept. Now, I'm a theologian. I love theology.

I love teaching on the doctrine of the Trinity. And I could teach on the Trinity for a long time. I'd get into some really interesting stuff about it.

Don't have time here. But I want to show you something. Hopefully, this will make sense.

It makes sense to me. If it doesn't make sense to you, tell me later, and I'll work on it. The Trinitarian God is an entirely unique concept in all of theological examinations.

I've been doing this for 44 years. And I've studied hundreds and hundreds of groups. I've never seen anybody approach the

Trinity. They've had three gods. That's not the Trinity. Or one God in three manifestations.

That's not the Trinity either. The Trinity is one being who is eternal, doesn't have a beginning, does not have an end, and he eternally exists as the one only

God in all existence, place, and time, in a Trinitarian essence where the Father, the

Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct, simultaneous, co -eternal persons. I could talk about aseity, divine simplicity, inseparable operations, economic

Trinity, and ontological Trinity, but I don't have time for all that. And I love doing that. So if you go across the street later and you go, please teach me about this

Trinity, I'm going to go, yes. Oh, that's right. All right. Now, why is that important?

Because in the doctrine of the Trinity, we have the second person, the Word, who became flesh and dwelt among us. So Jesus is

God in flesh. They call this the hypostatic union. He has two natures in one person, divine and human, and he's still a man right now, just so you know.

Okay? And ask me later why he was baptized, and I'll tell you why it has to do with him being a man, a high priest, and everything else.

Now, why is this important? Because Jesus, who's God in flesh, made under the law, for a little while more than the angels,

Hebrews 2 .9, he's the one who fulfilled the law perfectly and never sinned, 1 Peter 2 .22. So he did everything perfectly.

I've done nothing perfectly in my entire life. I don't believe I've done a single thing that's been pure.

That's my honest opinion of myself. I don't believe a single thing I've ever done is pure because I'm a sinner at the core of my being.

Try not to be, but that's just the way it is. Now, when you have God, he's the one who becomes one of us, and he's the one who lives the law perfectly, then he's done everything.

He's done it right at his intention. He's done it right by his hands. He's done it right by his word. And he's

God, so he therefore has a sacrifice of infinite value to be able to propitiate the sacrifice that turns away wrath, to propitiate the wrath of God, 1

John 2 .2 .4 .10. He can do that, and as a man, he can offer a sacrifice on behalf of people.

That means he's done it all perfectly. It's finished on the cross to tell us, God, it is finished,

John 19 .30. It is done. It's finished. What do we do? Are we going to go to the cross?

Are we going to crawl up to that cross where the blood of God himself is coming down, draining down the wood, draining from his feet, draining onto the mud?

Are we going to walk up there? Are we going to crawl up there? Are we going to take a list of our good deeds, our baptism, our communion, our going to church, our tithing, or whatever it is you do, and you're going to nail it to the cross next to that blood, and hopefully

God the Father will accept not only the blood of Christ, but your works as well. And the combination will get you salvation, because that's what the other gospel is.

And Paul says in Galatians 1 .8 .9, he repeats it, that we who are angels from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you.

Let him be accursed. Amen. The gospel is a death, burial, resurrection. Only in the

Trinity do we have the one who was offended also be the one who became one of us, so that he could satisfy the law, so we could go to the one who's offended and ask him to forgive us of our sins.

Jesus is prayed to in the Bible, and I show you all kinds of stuff about that, where he has all authority in heaven and earth,

Matthew 28 .18. And you can ask Jesus anything. John 14 .14.

And he will forgive you of all of your sins. You don't need a priest, you don't need baptism, you don't need good works, you don't need anything, because all of it is by the works of your own hand, touched by your sin.

If you are adding to that, to what Christ has done, then you're saying what you have done is not sufficient.

That's what you're saying. The Bible clearly teaches, if it's by grace, it is no longer the basis of works.

Romans 11 .6. And Galatians 5 .2 -4. Behold, I, Paul, say to you, that if you receive circumcision, circumcision was a representation of the law.

I can teach on baptism and circumcision quite a bit. So Christ says, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, he's under obligation to keep the whole law. And I can go on to James 2 .10

and Galatians 3 .10, which talks about the issue of if you're going to be justified before God and saved before God by anything you do under the law, then you are obligated to fulfill all that law.

But I'll give you a little bit of a hint. Those of us who have died with Christ, Romans 6 .6, Romans 6 .8,

Colossians 3 .1 -5, if you have died with Christ and you have died to the law, Romans 7 .4, and when you read

Romans 5 .13, the law has no jurisdiction over you if you have died. We therefore are not under obligation to follow that law.

We can do whatever we want as Christians. But you know what? I'm enthralled by the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to honor my wife.

I'm going to honor him. I'm not going to lie about him. I'm not going to misrepresent him. I'm not going to lie to any of you.

I'm going to honor people because I'm saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. That's why I do what

I do. For his glory, not for mine. Not for exaltation.

Now, the Bible teaches salvation by faith alone and Christ alone. I've already gone through the verses.

Ephesians 2 .8 -9, Titus 3 .5. You're saved by grace through faith, not by works.

It specifically says it. Specifically. It says justification, which is a legal declaration of righteousness.

So the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

This is the true gospel. This is what the Trinity has given to us.

But triads or modal anarchism or civilianism or unitary universalism and all the false theologies and Islam and everything that is out there, their gods are insufficient and so their gospels are also insufficient.

They don't have the god dying for them. They have a god or a prophet or somebody else dying for them.

And they switch the responsibility of the one forgiving, the one who's offended God, to a created thing, and they transfer it over.

And it does not work. I can expand on that a lot. This stuff gets me going.

I'll tell you one thing. I'm going to end with this. I've got about a minute, two minutes. I've got a lot more

I can say. When I was 17, when I was 17, I was involved in the occult, pornography, foul language, everything except drugs.

I don't know why I did it. I went to a church one day just to see about Jesus, that guy, whatever.

No problem. And I ended up walking forward to receive Jesus. Yawn, yawn.

I'm bored. Might as well give him a try. And then, the

Holy Spirit himself came upon me with such power that all I could do was throw my face to the ground and moan and wail in the agony of being in the presence of incredible holiness.

And this went on and on. Like waves, tidal waves upon my heart. Light beaming into my soul, exposing my sin, causing me to force my face to the ground or the carpet and moan and almost yell out the agony of being in the presence of incredible holiness.

And then to the left of me, Jesus was there. Couldn't see him, couldn't touch him. His holiness, his purity.

I still remember to this day. That was 50 years ago. I still remember him.

Remember his presence and his holiness. This is true. I've calmed down a lot since then.

50 years. And one thing I know. You want a testimony? I'll give you a testimony of Jesus Christ.

You don't add to what he's done. Because in his presence, everything you have is touched by sin.

And the only thing you can do is bow down. And you rely on him. That's what it means to be justified by faith.

Faith in him. Because faith is only as good as who you put it in. Faith is only as good as who you put it in.

He's the Lord Jesus Christ whom you must serve. You must serve him. You must glorify the

Lord Jesus. Trust in what he has done. Not in yourselves.

Not in any works. Not in any capability. Not sincerely. Not your baptism. These things are important.

But they do not add to the blood of God on the cross. That's why he grants you faith.

That you be justified by faith. Not by your efforts, but by what he's done. Amen. Amen. We present a four -minute revival.

I'll clap for that, too. That was excellent. And I've got the wrong group here. You guys are saying amen, and my people don't say that.

Come on. No, that was really enjoyable.

And I loved his conversion story, and I hear that in all different religions. And it's wonderful.

And I think God works in all different religions. The one thing

I wanted to say amen with Matt was when he says, if you add words, it's damnable.

It's damnable. You know, of all the people that always quote to me and say, hey, don't add or subtract.

Revelation's 22. That's going to be pretty well the theme of my talk today. Okay. Justification.

I mean, do I go there? I mean, I'm going to go there. Okay. Matt knows all these big words.

I think if we were in the military, he'd be a Navy SEAL. I'm not even a weekend warrior. I dropped out of this very institution my senior year in college and started a lawn mowing business.

So I don't know these big words. If you came here looking to see two intellects going toe -to -toe, you're going to go home disappointed.

I'm sufficiently ignorant enough that I've never been accused of being an intellect. I like them. They make for great conversations, but I'm more of a guy that goes with William Tyndale who said, how did he say that?

He said that if he could finish translating the Bible, that a boy in the plow of the field would know more than the

Pope. I used to mow lawns for a living, so I'd humor myself and say

I was a lawn mowing boy. I don't know all these big things, but I can read the Bible.

And on justification, it never says you're justified by faith alone. It never does.

You can add it all you want, but I just I've got a few things in James that says that by words a man is justified and not by faith only.

He can work on that one. Matthew 12 says that by words you're justified. I didn't bring my water up yet.

And it says that we believe we're justified, and then it says we're justified without deeds of the law.

And that would be the law of Moses, and we agree with that too. And now he says we're justified by his blood.

We agree with all of that. I love it. Love the Bible. Agree with all of it. Just not the

Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, yeah.

I'm almost out of time. This is amateur hour, folks. Um Anyways I've got my presentation a little more set forth than he does.

But the key thing is is that being saved by faith alone is adding to the

Bible. And we're going to see how that's being added to the Bible. Faith is a beautiful thing.

I'm so glad we're not living the law of Moses. If I lived the law of Moses I'd have been stoned a couple times already.

Um It's a terrible thing. It's a hard law to live. Um, faith is where it is at.

But it's not faith alone. Never was faith alone. Never taught in the Bible. You can come up with all these scriptures and say see this and see that and see that but why don't we just stick with what's in the

Bible? If you're a Biblical church you need to look and read exactly what the

Bible says. Um, 30 seconds. I'm pretty well lost. Maybe by the next rebuttal

I'll do a little better. Um But yeah, I'm ready to start my thing and so we'll move forward.

Thank you. I say these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Okay. At this time,

David will present a 15 minute statement. So I meet people all the time that say they belong to a

Biblical church and that all of your teachings come from the Bible. And I'll ask them, would you belong to a church where some man picks the scriptures and then tells you what he thinks

God is trying to say? Not what God actually says. And their answer is always absolutely not.

It has to be written in the Bible. You can tell what group of people I'm talking to, can't you? But when we compare their beliefs to what is actually written in the

Bible not only is it different but quite often it's exactly the opposite. And we'll look at this later.

So I'm going to share some numbers with you. I'm going with the King James Version. The other Bibles have higher or lower numbers, but the results are the same.

And since we can all agree that God is the author of the Bible it's safe to say that God chose to use the word faith 247 times in the

Bible. He used the word alone 108 times. That's 355 times.

So how many times do you think that God said we're saved by faith alone? And before you answer that, who do you think said it more?

A little trivia. Jesus or the Apostles? Most people think the Apostles. But they said it the same number of times.

And this is a little off topic, but the sinner's prayer. A sinner's prayer, for you that don't know, it's a prayer that Evangelical Christians can give.

It doesn't save them. It's just a way to talk to God and commune with God and as part of the process they'll accept

Jesus as their personal Savior and a hell bound sinner. But there were 650 prayers given in the

Bible. How many of those do you think were the sinner's prayer? And again, who said it more? Jesus or the

Apostles? Well, they said it the same number of times too.

But here's where it really gets interesting, and I'm not Evangelical. Jesus and the Apostles said that we're saved by faith alone the exact number of times that Jesus and the

Apostles said the sinner's prayer. I mean unbelievable. What are the odds of that? Could this just be a coincidence?

I don't think so. Because when something this unlikely happens, we should seriously take note.

And more important, just what is the message that God was trying to give us? Oh, and the number of times they said it?

That would be zero. Never. Not just never, but never ever. God never said that, and so my question to Matt will be, since Jesus never said the words faith alone or the

Apostles, I'm curious. What's the name of the man who made up that philosophy? And since it isn't written in the

Bible, it would be nice to know what book it was first written in. You know, um, just the year maybe?

If it was written in the Dark Ages or the Renaissance? I don't know. So before we go on,

I want you to know I'm not an illusionist up here manipulating the Scriptures so you can't read that it says we're saved by faith alone.

And as much as I'd love to tell my grandkids that, um, Grandpa's a Jedi Master, you will not see the words faith alone in the

Bible. My side should allow it. Um, it's just not written in the

Bible. And to think that Martin Luther, probably the greatest proponent of the faith alone philosophy, said that this is the basis of your entire religion, and it's not even written in the

Bible. Unbelievable. Seriously, Matt, if we were up in a football stadium, somebody would be spiking a football.

And it wouldn't be him. This alone should be enough to show that faith alone is nothing more than a mad -made philosophy.

Especially if you believe in sola scriptura, the Bible alone, that all your teachings come directly from the

Bible. But your teaching is if you have a prophet. And I'm a huge fan of modern -day apostles and prophets.

But if you're not, you should be extremely concerned. But I don't want to call the game just yet, because when you take the teachings from this faith alone philosophy, it absolutely goes from bad to worse.

now, because A plus B equals C, you know, faith plus alone equals salvation, at this point it doesn't matter.

Um, you can say whatever you want. Jesus could command us, He could command all men everywhere to repent, which

He did. But this philosophy says you don't have to. It won't affect your salvation, because you're saved by faith alone.

Now let's look at two of these. First off, if you want to obey the commandments, but you don't have to, you're still saved.

Well, did you know, let's look at a couple of commandments. 44 times God used the word fornication in the

Bible. Singular or plural, you know, fornication, fornicators, excuse me.

And of those 44, how many times did God say you could commit fornication and you're still saved? Well, the answer is zero.

Exactly the opposite. In fact, in 1 Timothy, He says this is the will of God in your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication.

Acts 1 says it's worthy of death. You should flee fornication. Deliver such an one unto

Satan. And Galatians 5 says the works of the face, flesh, or manifest, which are these, fornication is one, and it says that you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

In the same thing, let's go on to adultery. 54 times it was used. Now of those 54 times, how many times did

God say you could commit adultery and you're still saved anyway? Because you're saved by faith. Well, the answer is zero.

Exactly the opposite. God himself wrote on some tablets, 10 commandments, number 7, thou shalt not commit adultery.

Jesus reiterated it in Mark 10, 19. It says, do not commit adultery.

James says that adulterers and adulteresses are the enemy of God. Jesus said He cast them into the bed with Him to commit adultery and great tribulation, unless you repent.

And again, in Galatians, He says you will not enter into the kingdom of God. Okay, well, we can't expect every commandment to have that, but obey was used 158 times, and I even used disobey, because God might have come and said, you might disobey, but you're saved anyways.

Well, out of the 158 times, how many times do you think He said that? The answer would be zero, exactly the opposite.

In Romans 15, I've got to work on this. He says that the

Gentiles are to be obedient in all things. Peter says we're to be obedient children, we're to obey

Him, the wrath of God cometh upon the children of obedience, and Paul writes another proof that whether you're obedient in all things.

Okay, have you ever wondered why the winds and the waves obey Jesus, the devils obey

Jesus, but magically, if you accept Jesus as your personal Savior, you don't have to obey

Jesus anymore. It makes no sense. And finally, almost 900 times, the word commandment was used.

Okay, 899, but who's counting? And out of those 899, how many times did

He say we could break the commandments and we're still saved anyways? Well, here again, before I tell you this, a little hint, we've got a pattern.

So far, everything the Faith Alone philosophy has taught has not been written in the Bible, so you may want to stick with the pattern.

Okay, how many times did it say? That's right, zero. Exactly the opposite. John 14, if you love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 2, I know him that keepeth not the commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

2 Thessalonians, he wants you to both do and will do the things we command you.

And Matthew 28, Jesus taught him to observe all things whatsoever

I've commanded you. This Faith Alone philosophy was never taught in the Bible. Let's look at another false teaching, and we'll get to that.

We're going to see a little bit about faith. I've always considered it a work. Webster said a work is anything brought about due to an effort, and this is an effort, and we'll see what

Paul has to say. Actually, twice in Thessalonians, he says, well, remember without ceasing your work of faith, your labor of love.

Hebrews 6, we have faith and patience inherits the promise, not faith alone. Revelations 14, keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

In my introduction, I said that we needed to add to our faith. I was talking about Peter in 2

Peter 1. It says add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and knowledge temperance, and so on.

And then it says if you do this, you will not fall. Notice that faith is never alone.

Paul says in 1 Timothy 6 to fight the good fight of faith. In 1

Timothy, he says that some shall depart the faith. In 1

Timothy 5, he says some having damnation because they cast off their faith.

This faith, once you have it, you'll never lose it, is not in the Bible. In Hebrews 11, 12, 20, excuse me, well, because of unbelief, they were broken off.

And thou standeth by faith. Be not high -minded, but fear, for God spared not the natural branches.

Take heed, lest he spare not thee. Behold the goodness and severity of God on them that fell severity, but towards thee goodness, if if thou continue in his goodness, otherwise thou shall also be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15 says, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you this gospel, which I preached unto you, which you have received, and wherein you stand, which also you are saved, if if you keep in memory what

I preached to you, unless you have believed in vain. Paul couldn't have said it any clearer.

This refutes the once -saved always -saved. So let's get this straight. You have to have faith alone to be saved.

But many people had faith and believed, and everyone thought they were saved, but after weeks or months or years, they departed, or they cast off.

And it turns out that being saved is not enough. No. Why? These people were never truly saved, because they didn't truly believe.

They did not have saving faith. So why don't you teach how to be truly saved and have saving faith to begin with?

Instead, you teach that all you need is faith alone. What you've done is called bait -and -switch.

So make up your mind. Because faith alone and saving faith are two different things. One is alone.

One requires action on your part. Just read the parable of the sower. If you had an honest and a good heart and believed and produced fruit, you were saved.

But if you believed and you received it with joy, but you believed but for a while.

You endured but for a while. And in times of temptation, you fell away because of tribulations and persecutions that arise from the

Word. He's offended. Also by the cares of this world. You don't fall away because you didn't truly believe.

You fell away because of these reasons. Jesus never taught faith alone.

And just so you know, the Bible never says, truly believed, truly saved, or saving faith.

It never says it. They are just more made -up words which fit right in your other made -up word, faith alone.

And as Matt says, is the most damnable thing to add the words to the

Bible. Your faith alone philosophy does not exist unless you add the word alone.

Thank you. At this time,

Matt will give a four -minute rebuttal. You know, they call me slick.

I'm gonna have to be quick to get through some of this stuff. It's easier to break a vase than it is to put it back together.

Four minutes. I'll go through this quickly. Whether or not

God uses the word faith or works, does this work? Not. More not.

It doesn't make any difference. The issue is where does the Scripture say? And I mentioned the sinner's prayer. There is a sinner's prayer in the

Bible. A lot of people don't know this. Go to Luke 18, 9 -14. The tax -gatherer and the Pharisee went up to the temple to pray.

The Pharisee said, look, I do these good things, I don't do these bad things. And the tax -gatherer said, Lord, be merciful to me, thus, sinner.

And Jesus said, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other. No works at all were taught by Jesus in this point, but by belief only.

Jesus didn't teach it. He taught it with justification. So Jesus, one of the apostles, used the word faith alone.

Actually, that's not accurate. James, he does use the word faith alone, James 2. 14 -26, an amendment justified not by faith alone.

Now the context of that got written on a great deal. And it's called justification on the horizontal.

You go to verse 18. You show me your faith, I'll show you my faith. And that's what it's talking about.

So justification there is between people. I can exegete that verse by verse, because we have time, a four -minute rebuttal.

But that's what that is. He said that faith alone is a philosophy. Well, everything's a philosophy one way or another.

It's a love of knowledge and love of wisdom, and we're looking at it. But what we want to say is that it's biblical.

Alright? Well, he said, and I find this a lot with people, that faith alone philosophy means you don't have to repent.

That's not true. God grants us repentance, 2 Timothy 2 .25. He grants that we come to Christ, John 6 .65.

You cannot come to me unless the Father grants it to you. He grants that you have faith, 1 Corinthians 1 .29. But God indwells us,

John 14 .23. He makes us new creatures, 2 Corinthians 5 .17. So he grants us repentance along with our salvation, because that's what is part of it.

It's God's work. It's false religious systems who say, no, you don't have to repent. That's what you guys are teaching.

It's never what we teach. When they say that, they don't understand our position. We teach that we're justified by faith, but along with it,

God indwells us, John 14 .23. We're born again. John 3 .3 -8. We're made new creatures, 2

Corinthians 5 .17. As soon as I became born again, I stopped so many things. Because I'm indwelled by God, I don't have to do those things to keep myself right.

Because Jesus did it all. So I recommend to people on the radio when I do debates, when

I do impromptu discussions, I say that's not our position. Please understand our position before you try to address it.

If you don't address it properly, you're essentially bearing false witness. Now that means they know something's wrong.

Now he maybe doesn't know. I'm not accusing. I'm just saying that's not our position. It's not our position that we don't have to repent.

It's okay to go out and sin all you want and just do all that stuff. That's never been our position. 1 John 2 .4.

If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. I've quoted that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times to people.

You say you're a Christian? Let's see it. That's what James 2. 14 -26 is about.

You say you're a Christian? I want to see it. Let's see your faith. Let's see how you are. And does the

Bible teach you've been saved by grace through faith without works? Yes, it does. Ephesians 2 .8 -9. You have been saved through faith and not of yourselves in the gift of God.

Not as a result of works. Right there. Faith and works. We have two things. We have two things,

Matthew. Faith and works. If one's removed, the other's by itself. It's a simple logic. If I have an apple and an orange in a bag, take the apple out, the orange is what's left.

It's alone. That's what faith is. That's what faith alone means. You can go to Titus 3 .5.

He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we've done in righteousness, but according to his mercy. 2

Peter 2 Timothy 1 .9. He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.

Here's a question to ask God. Do you keep yourself right with the infinitely holy

God by your goodness? That's the question. At this time,

Matt will present a 15 minutes A 15 minute presentation.

You have 15 minutes. I will. I have a piece of paper. Amateur hours on display.

So, as I said,

I'm autistic. I have advantages to that, especially when I talk to my wife and I say, what?

I don't get it. Can I make an exception? Those are foreheads. But when it comes to theology, I have a 217 page document just on Roman Catholicism.

Just on that. I have many, many topics. And what I've done is gone through, because the

Catholics teach salvation by faith and works. They do it all the time. And this is not about Catholicism, but it says in Paragraph 2068 of the

Catechism of the Catholic Church that you obtain salvation by faith and baptism and the observance of the commandments.

Sometimes when I'm talking to them, I quote the Book of Mormon which is saved by grace through faith. That's all you can do. 2nd Nephi 25 .23.

I talk to them about this. The reason I bring this up is because what I've done is I've analyzed 170 verses in the

Scriptures that they have used. 174. That they have used to support their view.

And I put them in my online program. I have the claim, I have the responses, and I have the analysis of the context of all of them.

I can go through all these, and we can talk about each one. We don't have time in a format like this. The nice thing about a debate is we get to go back and forth, but the not so nice thing is we really can't get too in -depth sometimes, unless we're to define something very narrowly at the beginning.

But we can get into it real good over there if you want.

Trust me, I can really get good and anal about this stuff. Shreveris.

Alright, now, what I want to do is go through James 2. Because this is something a lot of people will use when they go to James 2,

I want to just go through it slowly and show you what it really is teaching. James 2, 14 through 26 is very often misused by all kinds of people.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works, can that faith save him?

That faith. What faith? The faith that has no works. That's a dead faith. True faith comes from God.

Philippians 1 .29, to you it has been granted to believe is an aorist passive indicative in the Greek, which means that God has granted it to you.

That's why you believe. And that belief is in Jesus, John 6 .29. So if God grants you faith, and it's in Christ, then it's real true faith, isn't it?

And along with it, concomitantly speaking, is salvation and regeneration, where the

Lord indwells us. All of it is a package. So our indwelling, our change of our nature, our no longer wanting to fall away from the world, our ability to understand the true gospel and believe in Christ, because in Acts 16 .14,

God opened the mind of Lydia to understand the things spoken of by Paul. You see,

God has to open it, because if He does not open it to your mind, you will not understand it.

Jesus says, you cannot come to me unless it's granted to you from the Father. John 6 .65.

You can't. It's not in your own ability, and it's not in your own wisdom. This is Calvinism.

Sorry, it's a dirty word, I know, but that's what I believe, and that's what I teach, and that's what I'll defend. But that's what the

Scriptures teach. Right? You need that. Boy, I really teach about that. So, verse 15.

If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace.

Be worn to be filled. Go on. You know, you don't give what's necessary. What use is that? Even so, faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

That's not the faith that God grants you, is it? The faith that's dead, that's not in Christ, and fallen in Christ, and concomitant, that means at the same time dependent upon one another.

It is not concomitant with regeneration and indwelling of God. Jesus says in John 14 .23,

The Father and I will come and make our abode in you. Come live in you. Most of the time, that's fine.

Sometimes, ouch. I've gotten a holy slap a few times in my life. I don't know about you guys, but I have.

My 2x4, my 4x4 in heaven, round. But some in ways we will say, verse 18 is critical.

You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith, but without the works, I will show you my faith by my works.

This is called the horizontal. It's justification between people. It's called horizontal. Romans 4, 1 -5, which

I quoted earlier, is the vertical. What shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, according to the flesh, was found for?

If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about. But not before God. For what does the

Scripture say? And Abraham believed God and was credited in his righteousness. And the one who works is wages, not credited as a favor, but what is due.

But to the one who does not work, but believes. No works, just believe.

The one who does not work, but believes. That's faith alone. And him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited in his righteousness.

That's the vertical. This is horizontal. Verse 18. You have faith, I have works.

Show me your faith, without the works, I will show you my faith by my works. That's horizontal. It's justification before people, not before God.

Because if God grants you that faith, he knows it's yours. And since we're justified by faith,

Romans 5 .1, having therefore been justified by faith. What it says.

Okay? I have a friend in Moxley who goes, I used to say in the radio, what does it say? What it says.

Verse 19. You believe that God is one, you do well that demons also believe and tremble. That's false faith.

That's called ascension. In theology, there's terms. Ascension and fiducia. Ascension is, yeah,

God exists, whatever. Fiducia is, I'm sorry, Lord, I trust you, I believe you, I receive you.

That's fiducia. That's what God grants to us. That's the truth. The devil himself believes

God exists and is powerful. So what? That's why it says, do you believe

God is one, you do well that demons also believe and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Was not Abraham our father justified by words when he offered up Isaac upon his son on the altar? Across the street, ask him about that.

I'll tell you some neat stuff. You see that faith was working with his works and as a result of the works, his faith was perfected and the scripture was fulfilled which says,

Abraham believed God that it was reckoned him as righteous. That's quoted in Romans 4 .3. What was credited as righteousness?

His faith and his works? No. Even James says no, his faith was. What he's doing is showing that true faith and true works go together, but you're justified by your faith.

That's why he then says, he goes on, he says, Abraham believed God, was reckoned him as righteous, and he was called a friend of God.

You see a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Before who? Before God? Obviously not.

But before men. That's the context of James 2. So many people rip that context. Sometimes, maybe you hear it on the radio,

I don't say it on the radio so much, but I'll do it when I'm talking to people and prompt you. They'll call me averse. And I'll say, did you hear that?

Hear what? That ripping sound. I go, first they ripped that context. You didn't hear that sound.

You're stupid. So, you said that faith alone is a philosophy.

That you don't have to repent. I've already addressed that. Yes, you do, because God does not save us and indwell us so that we can continue in sin.

Read Romans 6, 1, 2, and 3. Shall we who have been saved, shall we continue in sin?

May it never be. How should we who have been saved be justified? How do we continue in sin?

Since I've become saved, oh my goodness, I can't even utter a half -truth, a quarter -truth, and live with it.

I have to confess it. I must. I have to. It is so bad and so strong.

I will not dishonor my Lord. It's not to say I want to say something false. Not intentionally. We make mistakes.

But I will never purposely deceive. And if I have that, I've got to take care of it. Why? Because Jesus lives in me.

Because of Jesus. But the good that I do doesn't get me saved. It doesn't keep me right with God.

See, I don't do this on Salvation Day. I don't do that because my works don't play any part of my salvation.

They're the result of God's living in me. I don't have any right to say before God, look at what

I have done. Look at me. In fact, Jesus talks about that in Matthew 7, 22 and 23.

Many will say to me on that day, the Day of Judgment, have we not prophesied in your name?

In your name, perform many miracles. In your name, cast out demons. Get away from me. I never knew you. What is he condemning them for?

Because on the Day of Judgment, the Day of Salvation, what are they appealing to for their salvation? Faith and their works.

See what I did? Think about it. If God grants that you have faith, Luke 1, 29, and he does, and that faith is in Jesus on 6, 28, 29.

They said, what must we do to work the works of God? And Jesus says, this is the work of God that you believe on him whom he has sent.

It's the work of God. So if God gives you that faith, is he going to grant you the repentance also?

Yeah, he says he grants to the Gentiles, 2 Timothy 2, 25. Yes. Is he going to live in you?

Yes, Jesus says so in John 14, 23. If Jesus is in you, you're going to accidentally do all the commandments by loving

God and loving your neighbor. I don't care about the ten commandments. I care about loving

God and loving my neighbor. And so I accidentally do all the rest of them.

And when I get to heaven, I'm not going to say it. You know,

I was on reading for 21 years. I wrote nine books. And I wrote 6 ,000 articles on carm.

I debate. Man, I show people the truth. Look at my works.

No. What I'll be doing is hiding behind the robe of my

Lord and my Savior, Jesus. Holding it around me so I wouldn't face the incredible glory of the

Holy One. And I'm just going to say, I'm with Him. That's it.

I'm not going to say, did I not do this and that and that. I'm not adding to salvation. I'm not adding to the work of Christ.

I believe in what He did, not what I can do. I remember one day, this is for real, no offense men coming up, and obviously no offense men, but I was praying.

I'm home alone. And I was praying for 20 minutes. I could not even think of anything else to pray.

I was confessing everything. You know, those things that only you and God know. And sometimes

I don't even want to talk to God about it because, and so I'm talking to God about everything. I'm screaming.

I've got nothing left. 20 minutes, nothing left. And then I said,

Lord, thank you for not making me like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The Pharisee, Luke 18, thank you for not making me like that tax guy.

And I kept praying and I went, wait a minute, something's not right here. And I went back, oh my goodness, even in the depths of my humility, there was pride and there was arrogance.

Amen. There's nothing good in me except the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. When I get to heaven, nothing that I have done will ever be considered good.

I don't know how it's possible. If he looks towards my direction and says, well done, I mean, because I know my heart.

I have a sermon I love to preach. Who's the biggest sinner you know? And the goal is you're supposed to point to yourself afterwards because you know yourself.

And that's the idea of that. But nevertheless, I need to get going on this. Now, talk about the verses that say we lose our salvation.

No. And talk about obedience. I can talk about obedience verses. I can talk about these verses, you know, Hebrews 6, 4 -6,

Hebrews 10 -26, you know, if you endure this, like that. I know them, okay, I can talk about them.

I do it all the time. But there is a verse that few of them recognize. 1 John 2 -19, they went out from us because they never were of us.

If they had been of us, they would have remained. You see, there's good faith, there's bad faith.

You go to 2 Corinthians 7 -10, there is true repentance and false repentance. God doesn't make any mistake when he grants people salvation.

And he doesn't make any mistakes when Ephesians 1 -4 says he chose us, that's election, before the foundation of the world, in him.

He chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we be holy and blameless and loving predestinates with the opposite.

Those two verses are killer significant. Please someone ask me about it and I'll teach.

I will teach you federal headship, I will teach you election, I will teach you the truth of the word of God, and you will come away going, oh my goodness, he loves me.

He loves me and I'm secure in him. He will never leave me or forsake me. This is how good he is.

Titus 3 -5 says, he has saved us not on the basis we have done in our righteousness.

It's a significant verse. Titus 3 -5, we are saved, we do good works because we're in that place of salvation and that's how we stay saved.

No, he saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness. That refutes that, it's gone.

All the other verses must be understood in context. You'll notice that when people do this, when people quote these kind of things, they'll say that you have to do these commandments.

Didn't he say follow the commandments? Didn't he say keep the commandments? Yes. Where does it say, and that's what gets you saved?

It doesn't say that. Why are they quoting the verses that say you've got to follow me and obey, to say this is how you get saved?

It doesn't say that. You do that to show and to live for the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments, the truth is not in you and you're a liar. That's 1

John 4, 1 John 2 -4. So I advocate the truth that Jesus has done everything.

There's only one true God. He became flesh in the Trinity, second person. He fulfilled the law perfectly, never sinned, 1

Peter 2 -22. And then he grants us faith, Luke 1 -29. The faith is in Christ, John 6 -29.

And that is well, however, justified completely and totally by what God has done, not by what we do. And we do not keep ourselves right with the infallible

God by our goodness. Thank you. At this time,

David will give a 4 -minute rebuttal. Okay, well,

I want to say, so I'll talk quick. I understand that you guys have to repent, but according to his philosophy,

I'm going to say, once you're saved, do you have to repent anymore? I've heard him say no. I'm okay with whatever he does and wants to do.

This notion that we do good works to be saved and you do good works because you're saved. Works are things that the

Heavenly Father has asked us to do. We don't live the law of Moses. Most of the times when they're talking about works, they're talking about the works of the law.

And these things like the scripture he brought up, he was number one of us. You know, they laughed. You know, when

I was young, I was the biggest Minnesota Vikings fan you ever knew. I lived and died through four

Super Bowls. I collected their cars, cards. I had their boulders. I was a

Minnesota Viking fan, and I don't think I've ever watched a game for the last 20 years. Couldn't care less.

Don't tell me I wasn't a Minnesota Viking fan. That's his way of saying, hey, you guys, come on.

We're together. They've left, but we're not like them. Put that one into context. And there's a lot of things

I'm putting in context, but one of the things I'm going to talk about real quick is this thing that for somehow, we do good works because we want to have blessings.

Jesus didn't do enough. Jesus did everything. Everything. There's nothing we can do that will merit salvation for us.

But this obsession with giving rewards and stuff. John.

John 3. I'm not going to quote scriptures. I mean, I'm not going to say there. Whatsoever we ask, we receive of him because we keep his commandments.

That's exactly what we teach. Peter. He asked Jesus, he says, what do I receive for following you?

Oh, wow. He must be a Mormon. Paul 1. Oh, in Corinthians, he says as far as his teaching, he says, if I do this willingly,

I have a reward. It's okay to have rewards. Is this biblical?

I'm going to say yes. Jesus. When he taught the Beatitudes.

Sermon on the Mount. Of the first 12 verses, nine of these things,

Jesus promised us blessings. He says, do this and you're going to get this. He even told you, you'd go to heaven if you did something.

He must be a Mormon too. You know, in fact, he said, rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven.

I'm going to rejoice. In the book of Revelations.

When it starts out, the right to the seven churches. And what does he do? The first thing, he doesn't say, oh, you guys believe and you're saved.

He says, I know your works. I know your deeds. They don't work. And if you don't repent,

I'm going to do this, this, this, and this. And then he says, oh, by the way, if you do change,

I'm going to give you a reward. And he lists what he's going to do. And they're good rewards. And to sit here and say, well,

Jesus did it all, but, you know, you Mormons, you do good works to be saved, but we do good works because we're saved.

And I'll tell you, there's been a couple times I look at that and I say, oh, so that's what the Pharisees look like.

Yeah, you can't have this obsession. If I see somebody down here that wants a cup of water,

I'd be afraid to give them a cup of water because someone would say, oh, you're doing that to get a reward.

But if you'll remember, it was Jesus that said, if you give someone a cup of water, you'll receive a reward.

I do good works not because I live the law of Moses. Sometimes I do it because I'm selfish.

Sometimes I do it because I don't want to go to hell. But I never do it for the law of Moses.

And I do it because Jesus teaches it and does it himself. Thank you.

Applause At this time,

David will be giving a 15 -minute presentation. David.

Be right back. I'm doing it. I've got 15. Yeah, David will be giving a 15 -minute statement presentation.

So just for clarification, 15, 15, and then we're done? No, 15 minutes from David and then a 4 -minute rebuttal from Matt, and then

Matt will give a 7 -minute conclusion, and then David will give a 7 -minute conclusion. And then

Q &A after that. By the time we're done, we're going to be really dead.

I got 15 minutes. I cannot believe that Matt Slick would show up to a debate to prove that we're saved by faith alone, and then he does not even quote

Jesus or the Apostles saying it. I mean, Matt, if yours is a Biblical church, please, by all means, read one to us where Jesus or his

Apostles actually say in their own words that we're saved by faith alone. If you're a church built on some man's philosophy, then cherry -pick different scriptures and tell us what you think

God is trying to say. I mean, you're doing really good at that. But I'll bet everybody here would prefer to hear that from the mouth of Jesus as opposed to you putting those words in his mouth.

Because if that's the case, you're not going to like this, but if that's the case and your faith is no longer in Jesus, your faith is in Matt and his faith alone philosophy.

You have to have faith in Matt that what he thinks God is trying to say is more important than what

God actually does say. And that's not good. Now I've been told it's hard to translate

Greek and Hebrew into English, but you know, that's why they never say faith alone.

However, somehow God managed 355 times to use the words faith and alone.

One time God tried really hard, and he actually got the two words together, James 2 .17,

even so faith that has not works is dead being alone. In other versions of the

Bible, it says James 2 .24, that a person is justified by works, not by faith alone.

And let's up the ante a little bit. 335 times the word you believe was used.

That makes 685 times in the Bible that God somehow managed to get the word faith, belief, and alone, but for some reason he could never say faith alone.

Oh, then you've got the book of Romans. I hear this all the time. People almost get giddy. 34 times the word faith was used.

You know? But never faith alone. We read that by faith the walls of Jericho fell.

By faith alone? No. In the same verse it says that it was encompassed after seven days.

By faith the destroying angel passed over the children of Israel. By faith alone?

No. I'll bet there were a lot of lambs that wished that it was faith alone. So why do you say by faith alone?

The Bible never says it. He said it's damnable to add to it. Yes, 34 times the faith alone, faith, was used in the book of Romans.

But instead of being excited, maybe you should be concerned that it never says faith alone. We agree with Paul.

All 34 rules, all 34 times he said it, we agree with that.

The question is how do I work my computer?

Laughter No faith in technology. We're gone.

Okay, so we wonder why you don't agree with it and why you decided to add the word alone to it.

Paul wrote 13 of the 27 books in the New Testament. But he was incapable of conveying the word of God as he received it.

Apparently somebody thinks so. So I'll ask an evangelical Christian how many ways can you be safe?

And the answer's always one. They'll say faith alone or belief or grace. And they'll quote some scriptures.

Romans 10 If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart,

God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. We agree. Hallelujah. Mormons, you say that too.

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, not in yourselves. It's a gift of God. We agree.

We agree with every one of these scriptures. Just not you adding the word alone to it. That's why your theorem is

A plus B equals C because none of these say alone. You have to add it.

In fact, Ephesians 2 8, it takes 347 verses before God remembered to put the word alone.

Yeah. Now, Romans 10 9's not so bad. It only took 13. So why do you add the word alone?

And I'm not mad. I just get excited. Then I ask how many ways does the Bible say you can be saved?

And of course, you know, have life, salvation, eternal life. It's always one. But you know what? I found over 50 in the

Bible. Okay, I'm only going to read a few. 10, just because time. 1

Peter 3 Even baptism doth now save us. Philippians 2 As you have always obeyed not my work, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Revelations 2 Be thou faithful unto death and I'll give you crown of life.

Romans 2 Through patience, continuous, well -doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality.

Eternal life. Haven't seen faith alone in period. Romans 13

Is high time to awake out of your sleep because your salvation is nearer than when you believed.

Titus 3 Not by works of righteousness that we've done, but by his mercy we are saved.

1 John 2 If which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, and you have the

Father and the Son, he promises us eternal life. James said, Blessed is the man that endureth temptation.

He shall receive the crown of life. Matthew 19 If you've entered to life, keep the commandments.

John 6 You so eat of my flesh and drink my blood, have eternal life. Hebrews 5

He became the author of eternal salvation unto all of those that obeyed him.

Now this is where it gets tough. Who do we believe? I just quoted Peter, James, John, and Jesus, and Paul.

And Matt quoted... I don't know. But in Matt's defense, he is pretty for sure.

I'm pretty sure that Jesus possibly intended to say we were saved by faith alone, but Jesus never did.

The apostles never did. The Bible never did. It was never, ever written in the

Bible. And you know what? It even gets worse. Because you know that the word saved was used in the

Bible 104 times. And 36 of them actually say how to be saved.

And with the topic today, that how are we saved by faith alone, I would have assumed

Matt would have got up here and opened the Bible and read 36 times where we're saved by faith alone.

But you know why he didn't? And I think everybody knows why. Because they never said that.

But I'll tell you the place where it actually does say. The very first place it says we're saved in the Bible, Matthew 10, 22.

And it says here, let's see, he that endureth to the end. Oh, endure to the end,

I can't be right. That's what I said in my intro. You know, because faith alone, immediate, enduring to the end, that could take a lifetime.

So who said this? Maybe it's just some heretic that's just trying to say that we're saved by enduring, just to go against that true gospel of faith alone.

So who said it? Oh, that's Jesus. And Jesus says it three times.

Matthew 10, 22. You shall be hated of all men for my namesakes, but he that endures to the end shall be saved.

He says it in Matthew 24, 13 and Mark 13, 13. And he is talking about tribulation, but there's a lot of Scripture in the

Bible that says through tribulation, you're saved. So let's go over a few more of these.

Mark 16. Jesus said, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

I just have to throw in that, baptized. Luke 7. Thy faith has saved thee.

John 10. I am the door. If any man shall open, he shall be saved. Romans.

We're saved by hope. We're saved by his life. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord is saved.

Not alone. In fact, call on the name of the Lord. It goes over many times. Jesus says, why call me

Lord and not do what I say? And twice in the Bible, literally they say, Lord, Lord, the ten virgins in the wedding feast.

And the Lord sends them away. He says, I don't know you. Ephesians 2.

By grace you are saved. 2 Timothy 1. We're saved not according to our works, but his purpose and grace.

1 Timothy 2. Who will have all men to be saved. John 3.

God sent not his Son into the world to condemn it, but that the world through him might be saved.

Now, I realize we're not keeping score, but if we were, it would be ways to be saved that are actually written in the

Bible. I have 20 saved by faith alone written in the Bible. Zero. I'm not mad.

I'm sorry, guys. If we had time, I could more than double that number. So I guess my question to Matt would be, at what point did you decide it was okay to take away the words of Jesus out of the

Bible? And to take all of the ways that the Bible says we can be saved only so you can turn around and add the word alone when it deserves your philosophy?

You cannot make up words and philosophies to add and subtract to the Bible and then say you believe in sola scriptura.

Sola scriptura claims that all of your knowledge on salvation comes from the Bible alone, but obviously it doesn't.

The two cannot coexist. If I was to flip a coin, the Bible alone would be on one side and faith alone would be on the other.

If the Bible alone was on a journey north, faith alone would be heading south, wandering aimlessly.

If we were at a motor speedway, the Bible alone would be in full speed overdrive.

And faith alone? You guessed it. It would be stuck in reverse. You cannot make up words and philosophies and add to the

Bible and subtract and then say you believe in the Bible alone. You can have faith alone and you can have the

Bible alone, but you can't have both. Now, you know, in Biblical times they had a really good system on how to add to the

Scriptures and to get to make Scriptures. The Apostle Peter said

The Apostle Peter said that holy men of God spoke.

They were moved upon by the gift of the Holy Ghost. That's how we got Scripture. Now, obviously,

I'm not a holy man of God. But you know what? It works so good for Matt, I think

I'm going to give it a go. You guys tell me what you think. So, here's a Scripture. It says we're saved by hope alone.

We all hope. We're all saved. Good. Here's another one. John 5. He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me alone is saved.

That's not believing on Jesus. That's believing on his Father. So we're saved if we just believe in God. And I know you're not going to like this one, but I don't like you guys adding the word alone either.

So here goes. Matthew 21. 31. Jesus said unto them,

Verily I say unto you, The publicans and harlots alone go into the kingdom of God.

Wow. Can you believe that? Do you see what happens to the Bible when you add the word alone?

It changes the entire meaning. Now, would any of you accept it when I added the word alone?

No. But more important, would God accept it? Absolutely not. And so my question to you would be, if God won't accept it when

I add the word alone, what makes you think God's going to accept it when Matt adds the word alone?

And you're the ones that quote Revelations 22 to us all the time about adding and subtracting words.

I just read 20 places where Jesus and his apostles specifically said how to be saved.

Now Matt will attempt to explain away the very words of God with his faith alone philosophy.

The faith alone philosophy Oh. The faith alone philosophy does not exist unless you add the word alone.

By adding the word alone, it changes the entire meaning of the Bible. Thank you.

First time, Matt will be given a four -minute rebuttal. That's it?

Just four? Four -minute rebuttal, and then we'll have a seven -minute conclusion by Matt, and a seven -minute conclusion by David, and then we'll move into our

Q &A time. Alright, four minutes. Respond to what he said. Alright.

David asserted that it is a philosophical approach to say that a specific doctrine must be taught in specific words.

That's a philosophical approach. He's saying philosophy to say I didn't have to add the word alone, it's not there.

He's saying I'm doing philosophy, but yet it's a philosophical approach to say this is what's required of the scriptures in this position.

That's not a self -founded scripture, that's called philosophy. So he's not aware that he's actually guilty of the very thing he accuses me of doing.

So the word atheism is not found in the Bible, but in Psalm 14 .1, we see that atheism, the concept, is there.

The doctrine of the Trinity, one God and three distinct simultaneous co -eternal persons, is not found in the scriptures either.

I mean, as the sentence, but the doctrine is taught in the whole of scripture. We do not have to have the philosophical assumption as being a base understanding that the word's order has to be there.

In other words, we don't want to say that a descriptive summary of something the scripture says, the descriptive summary has to be in the scripture for it to be true.

That's a philosophical approach, and it's incorrect. Now, did Paul teach faith alone?

Yeah, he did. Look, you have an apple and an orange, faith in works. You take works out, faith is alone.

It's simple logic. We maintain the amendment justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Romans 3 .28,

Romans 4 .5, but to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies it godly.

Faith is alone. I ask this of Catholics all the time. Is faith alone there? They don't want to answer. Yeah, it is.

It's just logic. Okay, we can be logical. I mentioned 1 Peter 3 .21.

I love talking about baptism. I can mess you guys up when it comes to baptism, but 1

Peter 3 .21, corresponding to that, baptism now saves you. Corresponding to what? It's the previous verse.

Noah entered the ark. It was the ark that saved him, not the water. Corresponding to that,

Noah, I mean, baptism now saves you, not the removal of dirt from the flesh. Always call it the whole thing in the context otherwise you get something wrong.

Philippians 2 .12 -13, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it's God who's working within you, both to will and to work according to his good pleasure.

So, God's working in you. It's not that we do these things in order to get saved. Now, your salvation is the completion of God's work.

Oh, by the way, there's so many things to talk about. When we talked about Matthew 19 .17, you know, what are you going to do to be saved?

Jesus said, keep the commandments to be saved. Context. Context. Go to Matthew 19.

The lawyer said, what good thing have I got to do to be saved? He's presupposing that he can be good to get saved.

And you'll notice that Jesus answers people according to their question because they don't have eyes to see.

In fact, he speaks in parables in Mark 4 .10 -12, so they will not see and not be forgiven.

I can show you about this because that's what God does. Because there are people who are given the eyes to see and others who are not.

And they're not being able to see because this man doesn't see that it's through Christ. It's faith alone in Christ, although not by his works of the law.

Then Jesus said, do these things. I've done them all. Really? You have? Have you sold everything?

Well, no. Then you haven't done it all. Because people measure themselves by their own ability, thinking they're the ones who know what the standard of the law is.

Yeah, I've done it. And essentially what they're doing is they are keeping themselves right with the infinitely

Holy God by their efforts and by their works. And I would love to talk about, he wants all of you to say this, Peter 3 .9.

You can also cross -reference it with 1 Timothy 2 .4. Go across the street, ask me,

I'll tell you how it all works. And you'll go home tonight and you'll say, man, I don't like talking to him.

Man, it's irritating. But it's in the Bible. I'll show you stuff. It's in Scripture. Okay, that's an invitation for tonight.

I'm out of time. You've got 30 seconds. I've got 30 seconds? Oh, I'm done.

Slick and quick, you know. I love that, slick and quick.

And at this time, Matt will give a seven -minute conclusion. Conclusion.

Alright. We'll do this. Seven minutes.

And then we'll set it up so when he's on, it's for three. At the end, we're going to have an arm wrestle.

I'm older than him, so I don't know. That's Babylonian verbiage.

It's kind of esoteric, but it's okay. Here we go, seven minutes. If you can see,

I love theology. I've debated this hundreds of times. I like to have fun as well.

But it's a serious thing. You have to decide. What are you going to do when you get to heaven?

What are you going to appeal to for the forgiveness of your sins? Are you going to appeal to the work of Christ?

And then this whole other topic of who Christ is, that's a whole other topic. Are you going to appeal to the work of Christ and yourself?

That's what it comes down to. Are you going to appeal to the infinitely holy

God whose presence is so vastly incredible that you throw yourself to the ground and wail because he's holy and you don't dare to offer up anything on your behalf for him.

Nothing. Amen. Are you going to say, well, you know, I tithed.

I was baptized. I didn't defraud my neighbor. I helped many people.

I've helped many people. I'm sure he has too. I've done all these good things. I've tried to keep your commandments.

I've mowed the next door ladies lawn once. I've shaved that lady's car tire once.

You know, whatever. I'm not mocking those things. I'm just saying, whatever it might be, you say,

Lord, did I not do this and this and this in your name?

Get away from me. I never do evil. See, it comes down to your view of God.

The Trinity is a necessary precondition for all intelligibility. Only in the

Trinity can the issue of the one in the many universals and particulars be solved.

Unitarianism doesn't work. Binitarianism doesn't work. Only Trinitarianism does. Only Trinitarianism can we have the incarnation with the fullness of God himself,

Colossians 2 .9, while the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form in the person of Jesus. Only the

Trinitarian concept, not a triad of three gods, or one god in three manifestations, so monarchism,

Sabellianism, one is Pentecostal. All those false things. Only in the

Trinity can we have himself become one of us and live under the law that he himself gave.

Jesus says in Matthew 12 .34, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. God said, let there be light.

God says, don't lie. This is out of his abundance of his heart, out of his character. So the law is a reflection of the character of God.

And God says, Peter says, that God is holy. He says, 1 Peter 1 .16, Be holy, for I am holy.

What's the standard? You? No. God. Be holy, for I am holy.

God's standard is himself. The standard is perfection. Does he ever fail? No, he does not.

That's why Jesus is the only one. God in flesh. Two natures.

God in man. Attributes of both natures ascribed to a single person. It's called the Kedokatio Idiomato. It's only because of what

Jesus is and what he did that he is the one who could fulfill the law. And he came to fulfill it,

Matthew 5 .17. And he never sinned, never broke the law, 1 Peter 2 .22. Therefore, God did everything.

This is biblical theology. God did everything that we need to have done.

Tetelestai is finished, Jesus says on the cross. Tetelestai is a legal term.

Legal term. I could tie it into all kinds of neat stuff. There's so much I could show you.

And he did everything under that law. He fulfilled it perfectly. So what's left for us to do?

Nothing. Because everything that you are, everything in your heart, every good deed you've committed or tried to do is touched by sin.

We are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2 .3. The heart is desperately wicked, deceitful, no man can trust it,

Jeremiah 17. I say to people, you know, they say,

I don't sin anymore. There's actually groups, I don't even sin anymore. I say, fight with me,

I'll fix that. Because I am a sinner, and they are too.

Are we going to offer our good works, sin -stained works before God?

He said, be holy for I am holy. He doesn't say offer me good works, that's a philosophy.

That's a philosophy of men. It's taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, the Unitarians, it's taught by the

Muslims, Sura 23 .101 -103, it's taught by the Christadelphians, it's taught by the

Roman Catholics, it's taught by the Eastern Orthodox, I mean the Russian Orthodox, it's taught by a bunch of cults you don't even know about.

I've been in the south. It's all taught. All of them teach the same thing. You have faith in God and what you do and that you are actually good enough.

What this ultimately is, and I'm careful when I'm saying this because I don't mean to insult anyone, and if you're a

Mormon, please understand, what this is arrogance, is pride.

To say, look, and I say to the Catholics too, I mean everyone, I say look, it's pride to say that you are going to add to what

Christ has done by obedience and thereby his work and your work combined is what gets you saved and what keeps you saved.

My heart aches. Amen. My heart aches for those who say that because they have not ever been in the presence of incredible holiness because they would throw that away instantly knowing that nothing they can do in any way, shape, or form is good enough.

This is why our faith is in Jesus, God in flesh, and only by him we're saved by grace through faith.

That's what the Bible says, not of yourself, not of works. Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, it says it right there, you're saved by faith, not by works.

And we don't keep ourselves right with the influence of holy God by our goodness either. That's just more pride.

Let's get rid of the pride, let's turn our hearts open, bear before the cross of Christ, and ask

Jesus to forgive us of all of our sins so that he might receive all of the glory.

Amen. Amen. Amen. I agree with a lot of what

Matt said. And we aren't saved by works. We're not saved by faith alone. So what exactly did

Matt Slick prove tonight? Certainly not what he wanted to. And how sad to believe that you can do nothing.

Just read the Bible and mark what Jesus expects of you, not what Matt tells you. So are we saved by faith alone or works?

We are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, in that we will all be resurrected. There is no other name by which man can be saved.

And there are no works that anyone is capable of doing to save themselves. Our works save us from eternal suffering, not because of our own selves, lest any man shall boast.

We are not saved by our works, we are judged and rewarded by them. It is through our faith and obedience to God's commandments that we are judged and rewarded.

And that will determine our eternal reward. Jesus set that up. And this is only possible because of the grace of Jesus Christ.

And it is Jesus who set forth these rules for us to follow. He predetermined the rewards, if we choose to submit to His will.

Now before I go on, I want you to know that what I've said tonight is good news. If you're an evangelical

Christian quit believing you're saved by faith alone. I know you love our

Savior. This will only bring you closer to Him. Jesus said,

If you keep my commandments, you'll abide in my love. If you're a preacher, stop preaching it. Please, don't turn the

Ten Commandments into the Ten Suggestions. Jesus said, In vain they have worshipped me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men, making the commandments of God of none effect.

What modern day tradition teaches the commandments of God are of none effect. And that's the faith alone philosophy.

And while we're talking good news, gotta throw this in. Let me share some more. I invite you to learn the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with living apostles and prophets, priesthood authority, angelic visitors, modern day revelations, and the

Book of Mormon as the Bible says by two witnesses shall His word be established.

We have the testimony of two nations. And yow it to yourself to learn from the source, not some disgruntled ex -Mormon or someone who profits financially.

Should we believe the man -made faith alone philosophy that Matt so eloquently describes?

Or the very words of Jesus which are written in the Bible? Two very different things.

Your philosophy is wrong, not because I say it's wrong, it's wrong because it's teachings are not written in the

Bible. If Matt didn't get straight A's in theology school, he should've. I do agree with a lot of what he says, but his goal is to convince you that God said something in the

Bible that God never said. And you are supposed to believe it even though your faith says you only believe what's written in the

Bible. The only way to actually agree that you're saved by faith alone is to take the Bible, close the

Bible, set it aside, and read it in some other periodical. The only two times these words are even used together in the same verse specifically says you're not saved by faith alone, and you're not justified by faith alone.

It only, oh, it only takes one scripture that says you're saved by a way other than faith alone to disprove the faith alone philosophy.

And it takes at least one scripture that says you're saved by faith alone to make that philosophy even plausible.

Apparently no one can produce that one scripture that says we're saved by faith alone because God went out of His way not to say it.

And although I only needed one, I produced 20 scriptures that show salvation other than by faith alone.

Now Matt shared his opinion with us 11 times. 11 times he says we're saved by faith alone.

Nothing more than his opinion. Let that sink in. But for some reason, he feels good about all this.

I don't know. These numbers, they don't add up. And if I was a betting man, I'd throw a couple bucks on his philosophy, but there is no way

I would bet my eternal salvation on his opinion. Heaven forbid that anyone should leave here tonight thinking we are saved by faith alone because of someone's opinion.

Everyone saw how ridiculous it was when I added the word alone, but some of you are thinking, well, maybe if we add it or Matt adds it, it'll work.

God will accept it, but He will not. For those of you still grasping onto this philosophy,

I have one last set of numbers, and I have time to lose a drink. Okay.

One last set of numbers. In the three years of his mortal ministry, Jesus never said we're saved by faith alone.

In the 34 years of his life, Jesus never said we're saved by faith alone.

In the 4 ,000 years of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, God never said we're saved by faith alone.

In the 7 ,000 years of the creation written in the Bible, the 1 ,000 years of the

Millennium, and eternity on, God never said we're saved by faith alone. So I guess my question to you would be, if God the

Father, His Son Jesus Christ, the Apostles and Prophets, and the

Holy Bible never says we're saved by faith alone, then why do you? And more important, when will you stop?

And these things I say in the name of the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ. Amen. This time

I have some questions that have been posed by our audience tonight. So I'll start with the first question.

Can we have a bathroom break? Oh, we have a bathroom break? We sure can. We sure can.

So we'll come back in just five minutes. We'll come back in five minutes and we'll have some

Q &A time. While we're taking that break, if you'd like to take a question, send a question up to me.

We have a text message. My number is 801 -645 -7433.

That's 801 -645 -7433. If we don't get to all of your questions,

I will do my very best to get you an answer. It might be tomorrow or the next day, but I will do that.

And also 3701 Harrison Boulevard. Right about 7 o 'clock, well 630 or so, we'll be over there for pizza and some more time to try to discuss some of these things.

So that's right across the street on Harrison, next to Jimmy John's. So if you have to go, I want to thank you for joining us tonight.

You're welcome to join us over there at our ministry house. We have a Bible museum over there as well. So we have some great things to show you there.

So we'll be right back in just about four minutes from now. Russ, will you tell me the address where we're going again?

3701 Harrison 3701 3701 3701

Harrison Boulevard. And what's the name of the place? You'll see AMA 20 on the sign.

AMA 20. Gotcha. . .

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