More Eastern Orthodoxy, Reaching the New Mormons, and a Tornado for Good Measure!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:32

Well, greetings, welcome to the dividing line. Boy, I'm wearing just plain shirts recently. I'm just preparing everybody.

00:38

I'm preparing Rich He's gonna get used to this, you know, it's like, oh just regular Cotton shirts and stuff like that.

00:44

And then hopefully before I head to To st.

00:50

Charles. I'll come in one day with a glorious Multicolored sweater and but right now it's just too hot.

00:59

It's still Still a little little toasty. I mean, it's I think this has to be 84 for Reformation Day We've had a hundred and three so I'll take 84 for a hundred and three any day

01:17

This has nothing to do with theology or church history. I think well, I guess this could could call church history

01:26

I'm getting old enough to Be considered church history, um,

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I'm I'm heading toward another birthday here and Plugging my way into the middle of my seventh decade and It's it's fascinating how

01:52

Memory works how memory fails the things that really stick with you and And Facebook I don't

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I don't do Facebook, but I did find out from a relative about a Facebook group a couple years ago.

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I think I've mentioned at some point in the past. I'll go would know whether I did or I didn't My earliest memory, what's your earliest memory?

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What's the first thing you can recall? that with any kind of accuracy clarity

02:32

Um for me It's May 6 1965

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Now, I don't remember the date obviously, I Happen to know because I know what event prompted this memory that I have and What happened

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I grew up very poor dirt poor Impoverished funny thing was

03:05

I never knew it. I mean if I want if I wanted to do the Victim thing.

03:12

Oh, man We The first house I remember living in was a 100 and I remember is 105 years old

03:20

I remember my parents talking about the 105 year old farmhouse My dad had to repair the windows

03:27

It was drafty Um, the second floor smelled from all the bats in the attic and At night

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I do remember this too At night at sunset those bats would come out of the top of that place

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And they just black in the sky it was just amazing how many were up there and the guano up there was astonishing Well, it's really cool it's if you ever been this is in Minneapolis, Minnesota Suburb Filled with mosquitoes just everywhere

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Those bats would come out and 10 minutes later. There was a mosquito to be found You could go out there and didn't need to have off or anything like that.

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It was it was great Anyway, we lived in this old drafty farmhouse

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Really I found out later that my dad had said to the guy that owned the place if I fix it up Can we live in it?

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The guy's like I'll give you a six months free if you do that. Sure. No problem He actually felt bad about it but that's first place

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I remember living and I can remember the little black and white

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TV we had in the kitchen and Because my dad was a my dad had worked his way through Moody Bible Institute as a

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TV repairman Which back then was replacing vacuum tubes He you pull the vacuum tubes out test them find out which one had gone bad replace it you had your

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TV back That's how we lived while going to Moody Bible Institute So he'd fix these things up.

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It was never new We never had a new TV or something like that. In fact the first color TV we had he built out of spare parts

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That's first first place I ever saw Gilligan's Island in color Gilligan wore a red shirt all the time um

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Anyway, some of you have no idea what that's about. We're definitely dating ourselves here, but Walter Cronkite CBS Evening News Vietnam War Ho Chi Minh Trail.

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Yes. I remember those things as a kid but We moved to Pennsylvania from Minneapolis when

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I was five and My first memory

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How do I know is May 6 well because of the pictures I think which can pop up down the corner there

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Yeah There's a Facebook group for the friendly tornadoes

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May 6 1965 And What fascinates me is what makes memories stick like I said, we live in a farmhouse and It's two stories and it had a storm cellar and So if you've ever been in the

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Midwest Storm cellars the the doors are at an angle you go down into an angle and they're at an angle

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Because it's for a storm and so it needs to be so the wind can't you know, blow the doors off or stuff like that It's gonna be safe down there.

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We weren't allowed down there. That was we were told. Nope, you know, you never play down there Well one day

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I now know thanks to Facebook what the day was My parents grab us grab me and my sister who is six and a half years six and three -quarter years older than me and We go around the side of the house

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It's stormy outside and I can just tell my parents are frightened out of their minds

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And my dad's opening the door that we're never allowed to go in. We're never allowed to go down there and It's these big it open out like this storm doors

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And we're going down these stairs into this dark creepy place and my mom sits down with me on her lap and So we're facing the door which is still open because my dad's go up there and do them one at a time and through that door

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I see the bottom left

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This one right here That's what I see I Can remember it as clear as day

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Now might it have been this one might have been that one, you know from a different angle, you know

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But that is what I remember right there and I had never I remembered this long before Facebook or the 80s ever saw any of these pictures or anything like that that's what

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I remember and I got to talk to my dad about it a couple years before he died and He said

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Jim he said I swear to you that thing Beat a path to our front door it headed straight at us and I'm telling you as God as my witness

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It got right across the field from us Lifted up went right over top of us came back down to the side and kept going and We had no damage.

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No appreciable He said God spared us that thing just all there is to it

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And but that huge black funnel Taking up the sky that was

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First memory that I have and Yeah, I wonder what yours is what caused you to remember

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Remember it not a real positive memory honest with you but still

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It is fascinating that we live in a day where It strikes me all the time you know,

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I'm an aficionado of Big band music I've told you before I grew up as a radio announcer

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Playing playing records man. I've still got a bunch of them right through that wall right there LPs vinyl and Which is coming back amazing.

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I Remember how everybody was so happy to get rid of their vinyl and get you know CDs and stuff like that oh, we're really advanced now and so I You know played that music and I listened to it now and it was it was starting to happen when

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I was a teenager On the air kwa

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FM 106 .3 and Sun City, Arizona but now

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Everybody you're listening to is dead. You know, I listened to Nat King Cole Frank Sinatra You listen to Tommy Dorsey Jimmy Dorsey Artie Shaw Glenn Miller Woody Herman, whoever it might be even

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Guy Lombardo, man, and he lived forever They're all dead we're listening to people singing who have not been in the land of living for decades and We're the first Generations to have ever experienced anything like this

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You know our great -great -grandparents never heard Music from someone who was dead.

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We don't think about it Very much, I guess but it's it's true.

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We have experienced so many things and so here here's social media Here's this thing called the

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Internet Thank goodness for Al Gore and I Can look back and go hey

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That's what I saw When I was two and a half years old and it's been stuck in my mind ever since then

11:58

Well, there's the date boy nail that one down, you know And I've gone back there that they had this they destroyed that farmhouse long time ago

12:07

I think it's underneath a parking lot at a mini mall now I got pretty close to it, but I I found some of our old neighbors houses

12:17

Which was sort of cool, but that was that was long gone But yeah, you can you can go online and Confirm your memories it's um, it's fascinating really is and Sometimes we don't take the time to think about stuff like that.

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We're so busy with all the current controversies Everything else that we don't stop and smell the roses as they say so anyway,

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I Found it interesting

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I'm Okay, that okay that's somebody no, no it is.

13:03

All right, I Posted a A Little thing on let me see if it this will take me back to it here

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Yeah, here it is good again threads in X are not always easy to Tap back into I posted a citation

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Here's what I wrote And it didn't format. Well, so that's one of the reasons I don't put it up.

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So I'll just read it for you. Oh Here we are again Looking from the direction.

13:43

I hate but at least you can see, you know, some of the other stuff here like my protein bottle there

13:49

Good stuff. Oh So yummy, but my wife says

13:55

I need to get the ice up here Powder it's cheaper.

14:00

Okay One of the leading

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Eastern Orthodox theologians of last century Vladimir Lasky now, it's funny A lot of sources

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I looked up said oh, yeah. Yeah Representational broad

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Perspectives within Eastern Orthodoxy as soon as I post that Well, I'm not really sure if he's necessarily really all that repre you

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Everyone always wants to talk about how unified everybody is and as And it's especially true amongst the

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Eastern Orthodox. It really is um We we all believe the same thing except when we don't and when we have fights about it.

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So Anyway, I posted this quotation from Vladimir Lasky and here's here's what the paragraph says

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God created man like an animal Who has received the order to become

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God? Says a deep saying of st. Basil reported by st. Gregory of Nazianzus To execute this order one must be able to refuse it

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God becomes powerless Before human freedom

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He cannot violate it since it flows from his own omnipotence Certainly man was created by the will of God alone but he cannot be deified by it alone a single will for creation but to for deification a

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Single will to raise up the image but to to make the image into a likeness

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The love of God for man is so great that it cannot constrain For there is no love without respect

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Divine will always will submit itself to gropings to detours even to revolts of human will to bring it to a free consent of Such is divine providence and the classical image of the pedagogue

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Must seem feeble indeed to anyone who has felt God as a beggar of love

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Waiting at the soul's door without ever daring to force it Orthodox theology and introduction page 73 at least in the

16:27

PDF that I had tracked down I'm tracking down a lot of Eastern Orthodox works of theology some of which are incredibly expensive and yet,

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I Somehow find in PDF format at scribd .com. It's very very useful

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But yeah The reason I posted this obviously was to Get people to consider the the statement

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God becomes powerless before human freedom He cannot violate it since it flows from his own omnipotence

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So in other words, the idea is that it is God's Omnipotence that creates man and that decrees his autonomy his free will and So God would be contradicting himself

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To violate man's free will this raises all sorts of questions about God's knowledge of the future

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It certainly reminds us of the importance of Deriving our theology from the pages of Scripture rather than from cobbling together

17:56

Quotations from this person that person from hundreds of years after Christ which is

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Generally how medieval theology and Eastern Orthodox theology functions If you are accustomed to You're you're you really want to dig into oh, let's say

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Romans chapter 5 Okay, you really you want to understand I can still remember I'm going down memory lane

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It's gonna happen a lot with us What? Okay, I Remember this is back when

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Alpha Omega was Probably even before Richard's time It was tiny for a long time, yeah

18:47

We would have these studies at my house, which was wasn't a house it was an apartment and And We did

18:56

Romans and and I remember prepping for Romans chapter 5 it was

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I was challenged man, that was I was Well, you know,

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I don't know that we had Thankfully I had Greek by then but not a whole lot of systematic theology so Let's say you want to dig into Romans chapter 5

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How do we do it as? Non -Roman Catholics and non -Eastern Orthodox Well you if you know

19:32

Greek first thing I did was translated it as best I could I mean that was I Wasn't done with all my

19:39

Greek training at that point and then you look at commentaries and you weigh the insights that they provide and One of the great benefits of having some knowledge the original language is sometimes you look at a commentary and it's very very helpful and then

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You look at it for the next chapter and it's not so helpful And if you don't know the original languages, you're sort of not able to do that kind of analysis on the same level anyway you

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You're seeking to understand The text as it was written in recognition of the fact that the theology that you have

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Embraced and imbibed and I wasn't at a church that well, it was a Southern Baptist Church So it had the

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Baptist faith and message, but there was no there was no emphasis upon Seeing ourselves in the broad tradition of church history

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That was yet to come in Seminary for me and taking church history and stuff like that.

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So, you know generally think about things like that but you we start with scripture and Then if you if you look, you know, there's a

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Very useful Frequently, it's not useful

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There are some texts where it isn't useful, but it can be useful for gaining quotations and you know some sense of where people are coming from but there is a

21:16

Ancient Christian commentary series that that all you do is you look up a text and it gives you selections from Starting with you know

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Ignatius or Clement or whoever, you know all the way up to maybe even the 1800s in some instances but I don't find overly useful but but you know

21:37

Augustine and people from medieval period and and you know It certainly is a time -saver

21:48

I I'll have to admit Grok can do the same thing for you now and very very fast

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I'm sure chat GPT or the others can do I just I just happen to have defaulted to Grok for for AI inquiries and So you you know, you might look none of that existed back then

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Again Al Gore hadn't hadn't hadn't enlightened us all by that time but That's how you do it.

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You'd be go to the scriptures first and then you'd evaluate what anybody had said about it By what the scriptures say

22:29

That's not how things are done here Amongst the the Orthodox at all really really isn't

22:41

So just before going on the air here,

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I Was having a little bit of a back -and -forth trying to With evidently a guy who sees the north so Eastern Orthodox It's called he's called the overpasses guy at O4 America Yeah, I never

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I knew this guy he commented on What I had posted and which

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I just read to you the stuff about God is impotent before man's freedom and things like that And he says

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I'm enjoying throwing out all the garbage. I learned in American churches I always asked the questions that they couldn't answer and it turns out the

23:41

Orthodox Church had them the whole time Okay That's not angry.

23:47

That's not nasty So I just This is

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I thought this is what would X was for I respond with such as Because I'd like to know

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It because it sounds like if I read what he wrote he's a convert, okay

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So he's thrown all that out. He's embraced. He's an orthodoxy a lot of guys are doing that right now

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So I'd like to know why maybe this guy will have an insight and I've told I've told the story before Back in the

24:23

BBS days bulletin board system days I Had some really good in -depth long conversations

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With with an Eastern Orthodox guy who understood reformed theology. We could have very very interesting conversations and he was

24:42

Respectful communicative responsive You know didn't anathematize me even though not that I think about I think he sort of had to if he was gonna be consistent but And So I'm like, well, maybe we can have conversations like this even online

25:02

Rare as that might be So he responds and this was just within the past hour as Well, I am

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NOT an apologist as such. I will not debate you on doctrine if you would like No, wait a minute such as cuz he did respond to that Here it is, okay

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His initial response, oh Let's think one saved always saved is my favorite example

25:33

Pentecostal speaking in Babel, I mean tongues Thinking they have the fullness of the gospel when they don't even have the right

25:39

Old Testament. I go on and on Okay, well not that's actually does give me some insight

25:51

Pentecostal speaking in tongues An issue regarding the canon even though there are questions about exactly what the

25:58

Eastern Orthodox believe about the canon Okay, that's that's interesting and so I wrote back 37 minutes ago, so this is just before the program started

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Sad that that is your favorite example Tell me right off the top of your head What is the difference between one saved always saved and perseverance of the

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Saints? No googling. Just be honest So this is a this is a completely fair question I Want to know does he know the difference because if he doesn't know the difference then he never really understood

26:29

What this issue is about in the first place. This is gonna tell me what level of Experience and knowledge are we dealing with here?

26:39

Does he really know? The difference between one saved always saved got your ticket punch going to heaven anti lordship stuff like that Um, does he have any idea what saving faith might refer to Any that does he understand difference between because he mentions

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Pentecostals He may not have much knowledge of Reformed theology and hence.

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He hasn't actually rejected that He may think that he did but he doesn't actually know what it is. There's lots of reasons to ask the question that I asked and so His response is see now you're doing like all

27:19

Protestants do I told you I'm not going to debate this with you If you want to be destroyed and convert to Orthodox Christianity, feel free to go talk to Jay Dyer Anymore badgering me will result in you being blocked without another word.

27:33

Oh, okay. So we've got a very sensitive Eastern Orthodox And so I Responded and and again,

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I guess this bifurcated into different stuff here Because I took the time

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This again was right before the program started to go and grab the dividing line Where I documented

27:57

Jay Dyer's Sugared up ten -year -old response to my mentioning possibility of debating

28:05

I see a two and He's just absurd behavior and But I don't see that in the thread anymore

28:13

I said as I pointed out Jay Dyer is a manchild and beyond reason if you can't define that difference is because you truly don't

28:19

Know what you're talking about, but thanks for your contribution because I mean saying I'm gonna block you and it's like, okay

28:25

Oh So I didn't see this one

28:35

He he tagged Jay Dyer and said I found one too terrified to debate you but he will talk smack

28:44

Of course He didn't take the time to look at the link that I provided and then he said

28:54

And I don't know what this is in response to I never said I can't but you evaded everything

28:59

I said which proves you're of Satan Which Apostle passed on the unwritten traditions to you none.

29:05

You have no grounds to preach the gospel Okay well

29:12

You might say to yourself that you might you might say to me you're wasting your time with this guy he's hyper -emotional

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He's he's got paper -thin skin You're never gonna keep him on one topic. You asked fair questions.

29:26

You didn't evade anything. He evaded everything So why would you bother well because a lot of people watch this, you know

29:33

And so I may if I remember and have time I Will respond to this

29:39

Um, which Apostle passed on the unwritten traditions you do you know what he's referring to So so if you're just sitting there listening now

29:51

Put yourself in my shoes. Do you know what he's referring to you should if you're a longtime listener to this program you do

30:01

It it's fascinating If I go online to YouTube and I put in James White Jerry Matitox YouTube will immediately give me my debate with Jerry on Sola Scriptura from Think it was 97 98 somewhere around there and When I when

30:25

I bring it up It starts where I needed to start It's it's time indexed because I always go the exact same spot because Jerry Had presented second second

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Thessalonians 2 15 hold to the Traditions which you were taught whether by word -of -mouth or by letter from us and he had done his only

30:47

Catholics can do this You can't do this the written part you hold on to but the oral part you can't because you reject oral tradition, etc

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Etc, etc. And so I go through the text in the rebuttal period of the debate and Demonstrate That this is not

31:07

Roman Catholic or in this case Eastern Orthodox oral tradition it had already been delivered to the

31:13

Church of Thessalonica and When you allow the Thessalonian correspondence to define itself

31:19

He's talking about the gospel He's talking about what had already been delivered to the

31:24

Church of Thessalonica when he was there preaching to them And what he wrote in first Thessalonian Hold to those things

31:34

So when he says which Apostle passed on the unwritten traditions do you this is just pure speculation

31:41

But it's the central aspect of both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Except both claim to have the right unwritten traditions which contradict the other one

31:52

Well at least until the modern period Because man, are we getting a lot of talk about Leo the 14th and trying to do this ecumenical schmoozing woozing

32:01

And I don't know how that works given the history since the schism in 1054

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I Don't know how I If if Eastern Orthodoxy If if the the leadership of the

32:23

Eastern Orthodox Church Patriarchal Episcopate the all the patriarchs get together and if they in any way shape or form even float the idea of An acknowledgement of the supremacy of the

32:45

Bishop of Rome The Whole thing would fly apart so fast to you think you need to understand the

32:54

Orthodox argue about calendars Okay, the old calendar new calendar.

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That's the kind of stuff they argue about You do something like this You mess with the filio clay clause you mess with Rome's claims of supremacy

33:11

Wow, talk about the whole thing flying apart It would be amazing

33:17

I can't I can't ever see it happen. I really really can't but That's what that's what's going on so Whatever unwritten traditions this guy is making reference to he's basing that on second

33:36

Thessalonians 2 15 But these guys are never gonna go to the text Even if they're quote -unquote

33:42

Greek Orthodox, they've probably never read it even in Greek They're not gonna do that kind of thing but we if we want to be able to engage with And I'm not talking about if we want to be able to win the online wars, that's that's that's not the point

34:01

Why would I take time? You know this evening If I remember to do so I I may forget

34:08

Um But why would I take the time to track that one down and respond to it?

34:13

He's probably already blocked me I didn't actually didn't take the time to Click on it

34:22

Doesn't say that yeah, no, it doesn't say that. Oh, that's interesting the the very first post in his feed is

34:34

Jay Dyer Saying papism is dying Orthodoxy is exploding I've mentioned to you something happened to the algorithm and If I believed everything that appears on my screen

34:53

I'd have to believe that Roman Catholicism is exploding and Everyone's converting

35:00

Roman is you know? This priest they had on saying all the intellectual

35:05

Protestants are converting Roman Catholicism and all the stupid Catholics are converting to Are leaving you know this kind of stuff?

35:14

Um Just the triumphalism and then the next post It's the Mormon Church that's exploding and doing so great and everyone all the evidence the truthfulness of Joseph Smith And then the next ones gonna be the

35:25

Eastern Orthodox. I'm like X. What are you doing? Come on it is insane

35:31

But it's all over the place. And again, I realize for me. That's probably the way it should be because I get to see all this stuff and I Have learned more in the past ten days about the new

35:47

Let's put this way, you know, we will be out at the Christmas lights

35:55

Of stuff at the Mormon temple in Mesa again They have this huge Christmas lights display so we go out and pass out tracks to talk to people and It's good to know

36:12

What the new? modern Mormon apologetic is because Since it's a new

36:21

Mormonism It's a new apologetic Uh, it really is we'll talk a little bit more about that maybe toward the end of the program if I will stop blabbering here and And get to that but What that reminded me of was the fact that when we were in the other studio

36:46

Brother Dalby found my book for me. I Think he just stole it. I think he just was reading it and doing stuff like that and then just put it back

36:56

But I'd wanted I've read this before I think people need to hear it and to consider it

37:11

We are Already making or talking about locations things like that.

37:17

I haven't talked dates yet because I'm not going to rush into this debate.

37:23

It needs to be done appropriately properly But we are arranging a debate with a well -known very respected

37:38

Representative of Eastern Orthodoxy on the subject of The 7th

37:44

Ecumenical Council Nicaea to 787 that's what this is all about anybody who

37:51

Everybody everybody knows Richard Price's book and the series that he's done So This is this is the area that I'm going to be spending a lot of time in for a number of months and The reason is simple

38:14

This council is considered infallible By two major world religions

38:22

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, it's fascinating that they both

38:32

Handle the council differently. I think it's very evident that Eastern Orthodoxy is significantly more influenced

38:43

By Nicaea to then Roman Catholicism in fact

38:51

You I would I would suggest that Eastern Orthodox Liturgy worship

39:01

Is framed By Nicaea to in its assertion

39:09

That it is necessary To venerate and kiss the icon and that if you refuse to do so you are anathema

39:23

That is genetic To Orthodox Practice, it's not so much genetic in Roman Catholicism in the same way certainly, it's relevant to carrying statues of Mary, you know in procession and bowing down and lighting candles and All the non worship, which is so plainly worship

39:56

That is done there Um Which we've talked about many many times before we've talked about there is no

40:04

Latria Julia distinction in scripture That doesn't come from the God God revelation. It's Man's traditions nothing more

40:13

But anyway the point is that if you deal with Nicaea to you're dealing with a council that fundamentally is that the authority the base of the authority claims of both

40:24

Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox and Yet how many

40:31

Protestants and again? I hate the fact that we're stuck with this Unfair situation

40:41

Because Kenneth Copeland's a Protestant, but we're not in the same religion okay, and The traditionalists and Roman Catholics Will look at the progressives amongst

40:56

Roman Catholics and they'll say we're not in the same religion Um Unless they're trying to emphasize how unified everything is so very very few people

41:12

Outside of Roman Eastern Catholicism Outside of Roman Catholicism in the

41:19

Eastern Orthodoxy, there we go lost a word there Have spent almost any time looking at And I see it too, so a couple weeks ago what

41:31

I wanted to do I forget what the exact context was I Wanted to read you from the seventh session where the anathemas if you want to know this is this is one of the things and You know,

41:45

I would ask our supporters To pray for me as I engage these topics

41:54

We've not debated the topic before I Really think that it it's timely and necessary It is certainly a church history topic which is certainly been a part of what we've done for a long time

42:13

But It's not the type of thing that Necessarily excites everybody now.

42:19

I'll tell you one thing over the years when we've addressed unpopular

42:27

Stuff stuff is like, oh, you know, okay. I'm getting a little tired of that. I'm gonna move on to something else

42:32

Yeah, we don't we don't do this for the clicks and Riding the wave of popularity.

42:41

We would not have done what we did with Islam. That's what we were trying to do So I I just need to ask our folks to Continue to support us and to pray that the

42:55

Lord to bless us Because Once you

43:00

I've had a lot of people contacting me saying my

43:05

Relative my brother person at church Just said they're becoming

43:12

Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, but right now Orthodoxy team it seems to be the flavor du jour

43:22

Um, and I don't I don't have a clue What they believe what to say

43:28

I don't understand what he's talking to me about he's talking about something like theosis I've never heard of theosis. What in the world is theosis?

43:38

So, I think there's a real a real need But it takes a lot of time and I'll be honest with you.

43:46

I'm not as young as I used to be I Can't work for as many hours as I used to and So just pray for us to support us but This What I'm gonna read you is

44:04

Infallible In these traditions it is of ultimate authority

44:11

We struggle With that it's man. It's men It was deeply political deeply political

44:20

I would argue far more representational of The leadership of the

44:29

Byzantine Empire The court there in Byzantium Constantinople now

44:36

Istanbul done by many names. That's a center of history if you ever ever seen one

44:42

Um, that's what this stuff is, but once you have that mixture that Sacralism you can't get rid of it and This is this is what you get.

44:58

So here you go the Holy Council exclaimed This is after a long

45:07

Wow, how many pages is it? Oh, oh My goodness

45:16

Okay, so they start naming Okay.

45:22

So, okay. These are all the names All right Lots and lots and lots of names

45:29

Signing this. Okay, the Holy Council exclaimed we all believe accordingly We all hold the same we have all signed in accord

45:38

This is the faith of the Apostles What does that mean?

45:48

You can't have Newman here. You can't slap some Newman on this You can't have

45:55

Rome's development hypothesis When the council is claiming this is the faith of the

46:03

Apostles the only read the only way those words have meaning is if what you're saying is

46:10

What we're saying is what the Apostles believe and on so many of these issues.

46:16

It is so self evidently untrue Massively so but That's the claim if that's wrong

46:29

Then this entire council is wrong This is the faith the Apostles.

46:35

This is the faith of the fathers You mean all the fathers The ones we get to choose.

46:43

Well, no that all the fathers. This is the faith of the Orthodox This is a faith that has sustained the world believing in one

46:53

God to be praised in Trinity We kiss the honorable images that fast

47:03

That fast So it's really easy to say well monotheism, that's a that's apostolic it sure is

47:11

How do I know it's apostolic because I have the Apostles writing Believing in one

47:18

God to be praised in Trinity. We kiss the honorable images

47:25

May those who do not hold accordingly be anathema Separate from the church.

47:32

Don't don't let modern squishy ecumenist Redefine anathema it had a meaning it had an application

47:46

These men knew what they were signing and if people in modern day want you to go.

47:52

Oh, no, I did They didn't mean all that. No they did May those who do not believe accordingly be driven far away from the church

48:04

Does that sound ecumenical to you? We follow the ancient legislation of the

48:11

Catholic Church We observe the decrees the fathers we anathematize those who either add anything or remove anything from the church

48:19

They were adding something themselves. That's the irony We anathematize the intrusive innovation of the accusers of Christians We accept the sacred images

48:35

We subject those who do not believe accordingly to anathema To those who apply to the sacred images the sayings in divine scripture against idols anathema, so if you look to scriptures and they say you're not to make these images you're not to bow down before them and Then you can see all these people bowing down before images anathema to you

49:04

That's not what they're really doing Thanks to John of Damascus. We will be talking about all of that in time

49:13

Those who do not kiss the holy and venerable images anathema, please note something This leaves no neutral ground

49:23

There's no neutral ground here You have to kiss the holy and venerable images

49:36

You have to accept this theology You can't just say well, I'll let you do that. You're free to do that.

49:42

No, this is not a matter of Christian freedom Especially within Eastern Orthodoxy.

49:48

This is where I think the Orthodox have been significantly more consistent with the spirit of Nicaea too than Rome has

50:01

To those who call the sacred images idols anathema Those who say that Christians had recourse to the images as God's anathema

50:10

To those who knowingly communicate with those who insult and dishonor the sacred images anathema catch that you can't even talk to those folks you can't even talk to us if You knowingly communicate with those who insult and dishonor the sacred images

50:26

And what that means is if you do not kiss and venerate them you are dishonoring anathema

50:34

To those who say it was someone other than Christ our God who rescued us from idols anathema

50:39

To those who dare to say at the Catholic Church ever accepted idols anathema many years to the

50:47

Emperors To Constantine and his mother Irene many years Mmm Constantine Irene sort of put his eyes out and checked him in prison.

51:01

He died there Oh, well to the victorious Emperors many years the new Constantine of the new Helena Eternal memory may

51:07

God protect their authority heavenly King protect the Kings on earth. Oh sounds like oh What's that term again?

51:13

Oh sacralism? Okay there? To all the heretics anathema to the assembly that insulted the sacred images anathema

51:23

What was that that was he area We'll be talking about here because there's there is a

51:34

Iconoclastic council before the area and then a moderating council after Nicaea to in Frankfurt How this one becomes infallible and these two are rejected

51:52

Well because it came from the Apostles no it didn't it was pure 1 ,000 % politics this politic

52:00

Oh Has nothing to do with apostolic teaching anywhere To whoever accepts the impious mouthings of their heresy anathema, and then it starts going through names to the falsely named

52:17

Theodosius Bishop of Ephesus anathema to cynos the us surname pastillas anathema to basil the vilely named

52:26

Kakabos anathema The Trinity has destroyed the doctrine of these three To Anastasius Constantine Nicetas who in succession preside over the sea of Constantinople Constantinople as to a new arius

52:40

Nestorius and disco the Oscars anathema The Holy Trinity has destroyed the doctrine of these three.

52:46

It's just going on and on and and notice what they're saying That their conclusions are the work of the

52:54

Holy Trinity and And has destroyed these doctrines of these people who came before who likewise claimed that what they are doing was apostolic and in fact ecumenical this is this is this is the nature of The language that was used by Those who attended

53:20

I see a to They meant business

53:26

They were serious This stuff is still relevant today now This will take us slightly past the hour.

53:33

I apologize But one thing I did want to do I didn't wasn't gonna spend all that much time there.

53:39

Um, I I'm not just trying to tack this on but with this sudden influx of shifting gears with this sudden influx of Mormonism I have been clearly reminded that most

54:08

Evangelicals Don't know much about Mormonism and most Mormons know very little

54:15

Outside of their own faith to even if they're converts They seem to forget what they was believed and So I've seen some horrific

54:27

Argumentation there was some commentary in our ministry chat channel that it seems like a lot of the

54:34

Supposed Trinitarians are actually modalists. They don't understand the Trinity. There's nothing new about this

54:40

Every time this kind of stuff comes up You know when we were out in Mesa one year it was the door that came down wasn't it rich Yeah that and they were up up in Prescott Yeah, I think it was that yeah

54:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah this rather rabid

55:02

Pentecostal charismatic type group Showed up to try to preach to them for the Mormons. They didn't have a clue what the

55:08

Mormons believe they'd stand there on the street corner as they were letting out and we're standing there trying to Pass out tracks and Mormons aren't gonna tell the difference between them and us

55:20

And they there used to be this this It was back from when Mesa was primarily agricultural there was this water thing where there had been a canal there at the corner of Maine and Hobson and they climb up on top of that it was like, you know foot and a half tall and They would go you need to repent and all the

55:40

Mormons go we have need to believe in Jesus. We do I mean it they they they did not know how to Present a message to the

55:52

Mormons because they didn't know what the Mormons believed and so once in a while they would You know get into a conversation and they're just getting cremated and we'd

56:03

We'd sort of wait in and extricate them. Yes, sir. Do I remember they rolled in on a bus?

56:09

You know, I think they pulled up in a bus They all a whole bunch of them came out of the bus the bus went and parked and then he later on the bus came

56:16

Back, they all jumped on the bus left. And yep. Yep. Yeah, you're right, right at least one of the years that that happened Yeah, that's true.

56:22

That's true So It's been a little painful to be honest with you to watch some of the

56:32

Apologetic efforts of evangelicals dealing with Mormons now, I'll be honest

56:40

These Mormons the the new Mormons Get to make their make up their own

56:47

Mormonism as they're going along I told you

56:53

I started trying to interact with this one Mormon and I'm gonna try to do a little bit more of that and I'm I'm like so I just decided

57:03

I better ask him Do you accept? the 1916 statement of the first presidency of the

57:12

Church Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints in regards to the identity of Who Elohim and Jehovah are who the Father and the Son are? and The response was sort of like well with um with some reservations

57:28

There's some things I'm not so sure about it Now believe me when when we went out in the middle 1980s and started witnessing to Mormons in Mesa during the and went up to Salt Lake City None of them

57:49

All I had to do was quote that paper from the first presidency. That was it

57:55

That was their final authority and they recognized that you could actually talk to Mormons back then

58:02

Was there still a subjectivity? Was there still a personal testimony? Yes. Yes that all that's true but they understood that there was a hierarchy and That their priesthood authority did not trump the higher priesthood authority that there was theirs was derived from and so Yeah, that's that's how you that's how you did stuff

58:28

That's all changed man. So many of these young Mormons. They they just get to create a Mormonism in their own image

58:34

They get to pick and choose. I like this. I don't like that. I did it it is

58:40

The the black and white statements of the past, you know, Joseph Hewling Smith either Joseph Smith was either divinely called and Appointed as a prophet or is the greatest fraud this world's ever seen.

58:52

There is no middle ground. Oh, there's a lot of middle ground now and That may have been said by a prophet himself

58:58

Joseph Hewling Smith, but who cares? we are the new Mormons and we are much wiser than anyone who has gone before and so It's gonna be interesting trying to deal with these folks and So what

59:17

I want to do Man I was I actually thought I'd get back to David Allen today

59:23

I thought I'd do a bunch of stuff and I ain't getting anywhere near it and I'm Rethinking even trying to throw this in right here at the end.

59:33

What I want to try to do is Find time

59:41

To be doing some Basic witnessing training by pointing you to certain texts

59:53

That well if you went to a omen org and You looked up the hundred verse memorization system for witnessing the

01:00:02

Mormons. These verses are all going to be in there, but I'll tell you right now

01:00:09

What I intend to do and respond to this one Mormon online. I'll try again. Hopefully doing it tonight is

01:00:19

I Want to present to this Mormon and find out where they come down on this The following text which

01:00:26

I would recommend to your reading your memorization along those lines

01:00:32

Jeremiah chapter 10. Oh Okay, well

01:00:38

If we're gonna do that, then we do that and we do da da da and we do

01:00:46

Da da da like that. Okay, Jeremiah chapter 10 verse 10 but Yahweh Look at this

01:00:58

Well Yahweh Elohim emeth in Hebrew Yahweh is the emeth the true

01:01:06

God The Elohim hajim

01:01:14

You know that word I bet you you do Look I am look I am through life.

01:01:20

There you go. I Didn't wear it today. I was gonna try to find it recently, but I have a high

01:01:26

I have a couple highs actually and it's the Hebrew word for life and one reason why

01:01:33

I want to wear my high again is to Get all these nutcases on the internet that are against Jews To go crazy about it.

01:01:44

You know why? Because it's the same term Jesus used when he says I am the way the truth and the what

01:01:52

Chi would be the Hebrew That would be used there. Um Just go tells you where you guys are going from up He is the the hajim

01:02:05

Elohim the living God And the melek olam the everlasting the eternal

01:02:13

King At his wrath the earth quakes and the nations cannot endure his indignation and then verse 11

01:02:23

What's really interesting here make a note of this if you write in your Bible you might want to make a note there

01:02:28

Maybe your Bible might actually have a note. I'm not sure Oh It does look at that.

01:02:36

Yay legacy standard Bible for the win I Had not looked at this but the blue over there is legacy standard

01:02:45

Bible and I noticed that note and I said I wonder if they tell folks if you look up in the upper right corner of the screen there

01:02:54

What does it say? This verse is in Aramaic So what's really strange here is

01:03:01

Jeremiah 1010 is in Hebrew It's Hebrew poetry But then verse 11 switches over to Aramaic and it goes back to Hebrew in verse 12

01:03:13

Why we'll read it Thus you shall say to them The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens so The The people are being called to idolatry by the

01:03:35

Babylonians and So they are given in the language that the

01:03:42

Babylonians will understand the very words to say When they are called

01:03:50

To join them in idolatry and what are the words thus you shall say to them and here's the words in Aramaic The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth

01:04:01

Will perish from the earth and from under the heavens Now all the Babylonian gods came out of the creation itself

01:04:11

So they this is a clear description then again The Mormon God can't create anything ex nihilo

01:04:19

The Mormon God cannot say be and something comes into existence The Mormon God can only reorganize pre -existent matter

01:04:30

So the Mormon God falls under the exact same prohibition and denunciation That the

01:04:35

Babylonian gods did in Jeremiah 10 11 So the

01:04:41

Mormon God did not make the heavens and the earth you might say well he organized it or something, but not create and That's the problem

01:04:52

And so they will perish from the earth and from under the heavens That's what scripture say

01:05:02

So I'm going to present this To this

01:05:07

Mormon fellow, and I'll be really interested if some of you follow me on on X you might follow along I want to get when this happens

01:05:16

It'll be really real interesting to see what kind of response is provided Again modern

01:05:24

Mormonism I Don't know how long it can hold together. I really don't

01:05:32

I Can't see I think Mormonism is hanging together right now because it is so stinking rich It's got billions so you can sort of Invite people to sort of stay somewhat on the reservation if they want to have the nice buildings and stuff like that but I just I Don't see how the religion

01:05:56

Joseph Smith came up with can hang together not only with its aged decrepit leadership

01:06:05

But with the fact that over the past quarter century They have purposefully injected into the very lifeblood of Mormonism a kind of critical

01:06:18

Analysis that nothing in Mormonism can survive Specifically Joseph Smith Mormon doctrine covenants and what's that that's resulting in is this splintering of perspectives

01:06:32

And when we would go out there we knew what the missionaries were gonna say to us before they started saying it now

01:06:40

Who knows it can it could be pretty wild. Yes, sir We used to refer to them as the future gods of America Club.

01:06:47

Yeah tongue -in -cheek, but nowadays I Don't even know know if they would know what that means.

01:06:53

It's the only thing I can think of that. They really have in common is

01:06:59

Families are forever That's not a that's that's not enough to build a religion on either

01:07:06

Okay, you can you can take accordance down there and we will wrap things up Thanks for listening to the program today much more to be said about all these things

01:07:15

We will press on with all of that as the Lord gives us time I'm sorry.

01:07:22

Oh What did you start? Did you make a mistake over there that I did not see? It's all better now, okay.

01:07:29

All right, whatever. I don't know what happened. That's fine. All right guys Lord willing We'll see you next time.