April 13, 2026 Show with Joe Owen on “The Gospel According to Marx: Stripping Political Rhetoric from the Kingship of Jesus”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 13th day of April, 2026.

I'm absolutely thrilled to have a first -time guest today, and we're not only going to be promoting a fascinating book he has written, but we'll also be promoting two speaking engagements that he is involved in in Pasadena, Texas, coming up in the very near future, in May, in fact.

But first of all, let me introduce to you Joe Owen, a third -generation missionary and the

Spanish missionary—I am really tongue -tied today—and the

Spanish ministry manager. I say that 100 times fast. For the ministry of creationist apologist

Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis, where he is also the

Associate of Biblical Cosmology for Answers in Genesis Worldwide.

He teaches at various Bible institutes, seminaries, and universities, speaking throughout

Latin America and Europe. Today we're going to be addressing his book,

The Gospel According to Marx, Stripping Political Rhetoric from the

Kingship of Jesus. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Joe Owen.

Greetings, and it is a great privilege to be here and actually speak in my native tongue as well.

That's right. Thank you for this opportunity. Well, praise God. Well, first of all, before we even go into the theme of your book,

The Gospel According to Marx, Stripping Political Rhetoric from the Kingship of Jesus, I'd like to have you explain the

Cantera Institute and also Answers in Genesis, the latter of which many more of our

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners will have great familiarity due to not only

Ken Ham's decades of apologetic ministry proclaiming the truths of young earth creationism, but also because of the more recent development of the

Ark Encounter and Museum. But please tell us about Cantera Institute, where you are also involved.

Yes, Cantera Institute, I've been involved on a kind of an associate level.

I think they can challenge me on this, but I think it's been about 10 years now on this side.

And this institute is in Ontario, Canada, it has a Spanish side, but the

English side is the stronger. Producing books on forming the

Reformation being more holistic into our thinking and to the way we think about society, raising our children in church.

And they produce great works forming a biblical epistemology or like on the

Reformational philosophy, instead of trying to use more rationalist

Aristotelian thinking in the West. So a biblical way of thinking in every area.

And it's kind of lay -friendly, not as lay -friendly as Answers in Genesis. Answers in Genesis is more of like biblical sufficiency, biblical authority from the very first verse of the

Bible, whether, you know, speaking on history, everything the Bible speaks on, it holds authority on that. And so full -time traveling,

I now head up all the international languages, Worldwide Languages Department, Answers in Genesis, anything that's not

English. And for Quintaro, you know, helping editing books, doing some speaking and looking at working more in their

Worldview campus in Ontario. Well, the website for the Quintaro Institute, and forgive me for mispronouncing it earlier, is

C -A -N -T -A -R -O, I probably mispronounced it, in Spanish it's Cantaro, C -A -N -T -A -R -O

Institute .org, that's C -A -N -T -A -R -O Institute .org.

And of course, the website for Answers in Genesis is Answers in Genesis .org,

Answers in Genesis .org. In fact, we have Ken Ham returning to Iron Trip and Zion Radio in a couple of weeks.

Ken is going to be paying tribute to our mutual dear friend,

Charlie Liebert, Charlie, who used to put on conferences and seminars for Answers in Genesis on creation, and has known

Ken for many years, a lot longer than he has known me. I just met

Charlie somewhere in the neighborhood of 2015 after I moved to Pennsylvania from New York, and Charlie eventually founded his own ministry,

Six -Day Creation .org, and Charlie went home to be with Jesus several weeks ago, and I went to his memorial service at Redeemer Orthodox Presbyterian Church here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, where Charlie was a member after moving here himself from Greensboro, North Carolina.

And he is, interestingly, or should I say was, originally from Amityville, Long Island, my hometown, where I was born and raised, although I never met him there.

He is 21 years my senior, so Charlie was a wonderful brother, and Ken and a colleague of his,

Mark Loy, I believe, his co -founder of Answers in Genesis, both were kind and gracious enough to record a brief video in tribute to Charlie Liebert that was played at the very beginning of the memorial service, so I was doubly thrilled that Ken has carved out time from his busy schedule to come back on my show.

He's been a guest a number of times on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and we'll be paying a more lengthy tribute to Charlie when he returns, and I'll keep all of you updated on the exact date of that, but it's in approximately two weeks.

The issue that we are addressing today is being born out of the very extremely disturbing revelations of the past few years that the youth of America, many of them, are viewing the communist tyrants, the brutal, sadistic, murderous communist tyrants of past history as their heroes.

They believe that Marxism is the answer to the ills plaguing the

United States and the world. Whether they really believe that is questionable, whether they even understand what they claim to be talking about is questionable, but it is a very important reason why a conversation like today is very important to discuss the book that has been written by my guest

Joe Owen, The Gospel According to Marx, Stripping Political Rhetoric from the

Kingship of Jesus. And if you could tell our listeners, in case they are some of the young people that I just mentioned, or maybe it's their friends who are listening who don't really know who

Karl Marx was, and there may be other people ignorant of the facts of this brutal, well actually he was the philosopher that led to the brutality in Russia.

But if you could tell our listeners about Karl Marx and why you were compelled to write this book.

Joe Owen Yeah, so this is going to be a very interesting kind of angle maybe I'll have on this because I teach in even public universities in Latin America and do some formal debating and some of the largest ones, one of the oldest in Latin America has 80 ,000 students, it's in Lima, Peru.

And this has been historically much more prevalent in Latin America and it's kind of like looking at a

Latin American universities is kind of like looking through an eye or a little glass into about 15 years, 20 years into the

United States, where it's going to go because I can see that progression happening. And so I'm very happy that this book that Quintaro Institute Publications put it out.

I wrote it in Spanish actually for Harper Collins, a title of Harper Collins for Latin America and I'm very happy that it's in English.

Let me just kind of explain in broad terms what's happening and maybe some of the confusion on this.

And it is that, Karl, there are kind of two, if you allow me, two kind of classes of Marxism.

And there is the classical Marxism that failed in the early 20th century for the

Western world, but has had some reach in Latin America.

And there is, based on Karl Marx, what we can call his philosophy of history, there is a kind of a newer

Marxism that has been mixed with what we call a

Latin American liberation theology that we're seeing and a critical theory from the start in Frankfurt, Germany, the

Frankfurt School, that's been mixed in the 80s and 90s. And that's what we're mostly seeing today.

And so some people will say what we're seeing today is not Marxist. Well, it's just Marxism that's just opened up the gates to include more than the original.

So about what Karl Marx taught in the 19th century, about mid -19th century,

I think it's 1848, with the pamphlet on the Communist Manifesto, what we call the

Communist Manifesto, that he co -wrote, it's this idea, his philosophy of history is that we come from what's called a deterministic system, where the world is going from chaos to utopia in a deterministic way.

Imagine the universe that's kind of like a clock, and it has a bunch of gears.

And no matter what you do, it's going in this certain direction. And so think of the theory of evolution as a contemporary of Marx, of Charles Darwin, that you have these species that are becoming more apt and more apt as the ones who can pass their genes are the ones with the better survival in that kind of perverted theory.

Think of that now society under that same grid, as society is going through these steps of evolution until we get to a part where we don't need a state anymore, because all the evils of society, if you could even use that word, are produced from the system.

And that was just totally contradictory to the Word of God. It says that sin comes from the human heart.

And so you go from chaos to utopia, and each societal group that forms, there ends up these classes, and there are the oppressed class and the oppressors, and class warfare comes out of that.

And then finally, the class that is oppressed joins together, has a revolution, tumbles whoever's in charge, and forms a new one.

But they still have some of that oppression in their system left, a vestige of it.

And so that's going to finally bring them to a point where there's need for another revolution. And we're finally going to get to a part, according to Marxist system, in a deterministic way, where we need a totalitarian kind of a dictatorship that takes control of all production and private property until the classes don't bring equality among them, but they actually disappear themselves, where there's no more binaries, if you use today's term, and I'll show you why

I'm using that term right now. So a classless society. And once this classless society forms, there's no more system that produces evil imposing that on the people.

And then there's no more crime. There's no more greed, because the system produces crime and greed.

And so once this classless society forms, then this state can collapse because you don't need it anymore.

And we're all going to be singing kumbaya, holding hands, because there's no more evil society to impose evil upon us.

Now, think about that kind of philosophy of history and present and future on the telos.

Think about if you mix that with the Christian faith, with what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches a good creation, the fall, promise of redemption, new heavens, new earth.

And if you take out the biblical worldview and replace it with that kind of philosophy, well, then the church's job should be to come along and bring this classless society to bring us to utopia.

That's salvation. And then the newer Marxism, well, that Marxism failed.

We can go into that if you have any questions. But the newer Marxism is saying not just the economic side, but any distinctions, whether it's gender.

So you need a genderless society where it can be as fluid. Marriage cannot be heteronormative.

There should be no norm or natural man and woman, because anytime you have a binary, that produces the oppressor and the oppressed.

Somebody wants to read an example of that, thinking that I'm not stretching this. Just read

Shulamith Firestone's book, The Dialectic of Sex, a very important feminist taking the work of Simone de

Beauvoir at the end of the last century. And she takes the Marxist idea in this book, everything

I just explained to you, and then puts it right by the feminist movement. Just like in Marxism, the state needs to take control of production, women in the feminist movement should take control of reproduction, and men should have no more say over it.

And then finally, she goes through every step, and then Shulamith Firestone at the end says, so just like in the socialist system, the goal is not to bring equality among the classes, but to dissolve the classes, the classless society.

So the feminist movement should not bring equality between men and women, but should dissolve any distinctions between them.

And that's what we call gender ideology. And now it's what we have today called queer theory with Judith Butler. But it's this idea.

And then when you look at Scripture, Scripture is full of binaries. You have the creator and the created,

God created the heavens and the earth, another binary. You have the light and the dark, binary.

You have the dry land and the seas, another binary. Then you have the animals, male and female, binary, the man and woman, binary.

And then finally, Ephesians 5, the marriage covenant pointing to the binary, the hetero relational aspect of grace and the covenant of grace between Christ and his church, the man and woman representing that.

You can see this has a very spiritual, demonic side, as well as it does have a philosophical

Western side. And I'm sorry, I kind of went kind of long on that. It's probably more than you wanted at the beginning, but that's kind of a summary just to begin with.

Well, if you could backpedal a little bit and go back to Karl Marx, the man, and what led this 19th century nominal

Jew to develop his theories, in your opinion, from what you've learned through your study.

I have even heard him described, and I don't know if it's accurate, but as a self -loathing

Jew, from what I understand, even though that's where his own heritage was, he despised

Judaism and so on. But if you could just tell us more about the man,

Karl Marx, this 19th century figure, which led 34 years after his death, if I'm not mistaken, to the

Communist Revolution. Yeah, so I'm going to be very careful at first just to say there are experts on his biography out there, and I don't want to put myself as one.

I do more of his philosophy of history that is the underlying assumption in all postmodern ideologies today.

But that said, there are some really interesting things about his life. One thing is that the moving away from Judaism into kind of first a

Protestant identity because of anti -Semitism, not because of any convictions.

There are some political, social political things going on in his life, but I don't believe any real conviction to those roots at all.

That's interesting that you say Protestant. Wouldn't Russian Orthodox have been the dominant religion?

Yeah, well, he was, you know, he's in Germany and did a lot of work.

Yeah, he's in Germany. He did a lot of work also in England and France, but what we call

Germany today is the Prussian Empire, and he was being kind of chased after by the

Prussian Empire because of his very revolutionary mindsets. And it's just kind of interesting thing is that if religion is to survive in his system, it has to be what they call today progressive.

Let me use today's terms, you know, progressive. It has to come alongside this deterministic direction into utopia because any convictions that it has is what

Marx would call ideology, is using information, using convictions as if they're universal to impose them on the values of the oppressed.

And so everything about the Christian faith doesn't work with this system, and that's what you can see.

Classical Marxism is very atheistic, unless you wed some kind of a church with the state like we can see in the

East. That actually ends up persecuting the true church. But this newer

Marxism, I think it's much more successful, and it maybe has a longer stay because it's not atheistic.

It just reinterprets the gospel because it's wed with liberation theology from mostly

Paulo Freire from Brazil and other folks like that.

And now it's finally into the evangelical church just more recently. And when you say

Marxism has made its way into the evangelical church, are you saying consciously, or has this crept in without the realization, the full -blown realization of evangelicals who, according to what you just said, have either tolerated or accepted it?

Yes, I would doubt as consciously as probably we would think.

That's why I try to reason with people at first. As many people think, they're just showing charity.

And that's why it's so popular among evangelicals today to talk so bad about the church and to almost apologize to the world.

And I know the church has not been perfect, but the problem is that what are we apologizing for most of the time?

And I understand the church wants to be relevant.

I can understand it, even though it's wrong, because the gospel's relevant, and the gospel is what makes us relevant. We don't make the gospel relevant.

And seeing the suffering, and then so bundling suffering and injustice in the world,

I guess, which that's a whole other subject, really. So let's say this.

It's no longer about abortion. It's about women's health, reproduction, reproductive health.

And so now I am not a loving Christian, or we're not a loving church if we don't stand for women's reproductive health.

And that's what it is. And there's where the Marxist—many people don't realize that—there's where the

Marxist philosophy of history comes in. Okay, how can a

Caucasian, white, blue -eyed colonialist tell a woman who is part of the oppressed, why am

I going to impose my subjective values that bring me privilege on this woman's subjective values?

Isn't that colonialism, as they did in the past? So how can I tell her what she can do and what she can't do in her womb?

And so that's why everything becomes, through a political lens, interpreted that way.

And so somebody may think, well, yes, let's have more compassion for this woman. And think about how we're on stolen land, as they say in the

States. I keep hearing that. And we have done so much damage in the past. We're colonialists. We need to be a lot more careful about their needs.

Well, the problem is that in front of the great white throne on Judgment Day, there will be no victims.

We are all sinners. But if you mind me saying one more thing about that, is we are adopting without knowing it that society is what's producing sin or injustice.

It can only influence what's already in the human heart, as far as sin goes. And I think that's how a lot of the gender ideology,

LGBTQ feminism is coming into the church. It's because it's going through a

Marxist grid of the oppressed and the oppressors. And people are afraid to be called the oppressor.

So they have to take the bottom side of majority of any binary and embrace their subjective values.

Now, in my observation of modern evangelicalism and discussions with evangelicals and so on,

I have seen the weakness of evangelicals to boldly and loudly oppose the murder of unborn children.

And I have seen people thinking and expressing their apprehension over full -blown abortion abolition.

But I haven't seen the evangelical realm, to any great extent unless I'm just blind, reaching the point of actually being pro -choice, as you seem to be describing.

Tell us more about where you are seeing this influence in evangelicalism.

Yes, I see this influence in people, Christians from the age of 25 to 30 and below.

And people who are grandchildren, like me, of those who fought in World War II, a son of a boomer, you know, those who fought in World War II.

When we think of Marxism, we think of classical Marxism and the Soviet Union, China.

We think of Cuba. But when 30 -year -old, 25 - to 30 -year -old people and below,

I'm convinced now, just this experience and everything I'm reading and seeing and debating, that they're looking at something totally different.

And that is, they will openly admit, most of them, if they know about Marxism, that communism failed.

The country that should have gone communism was Germany. And Germany did the opposite.

Communism is a globalistic, and Germany went strictly highly nationalistic and fascist.

And Soviet Union and China were agrarian. And so Marx's ideas, they failed.

It failed. And so did rationalism fall. And that's where you get postmodernism coming in, romanticism, to Hegel, and then to what we call postmodernism today.

That's why people are even saying truth is relative. But they re -adopt a

Marxist understanding of everything is interpreted in that direction. So it's in Latin America as I see it in America.

If you're to do a—I'm guessing many pastors that would hear me would doubt what

I'm going to say. But if you did an anonymous survey in a church, I'm not wishing this on anybody, but I want to be realistic.

I think you'll be surprised. Your 30 to 25 -year -old below, you're going to find that much of them are much more feminist.

If you talk about LGBTQ, they're going to say the community that has been disenfranchised by even us evangelicals.

So it's all about the oppressors against the oppressed. It has nothing to do with somebody's sin against the Lord, somebody who is enslaved to sin.

And remember 1 Corinthians 6, 9, and 10 about do not be deceived.

And it gives a list of people who practice these sins and says they will not inherit the kingdom of God.

And included in that is what was literally soft, which is a man who takes the feminine role or the passive role when two men come together.

And arsenikoit is the compound word from the subdugent of the man who takes the active role when two men come together.

And so it's not seen by our youth today of us preaching, repent and be saved.

It is seen as, but aren't you the same white colonial oppressors that have really disenfranchised this community?

And we just want to apologize to this community. I even saw that more recently among popular evangelical evangelists on social media, apologizing to these communities.

I'm not saying the Christians have always done things right, but if you have one opportunity in front of these communities,

I wouldn't apologize. I'd preach the gospel to them. And I think we're becoming ashamed of the power of the gospel because of that.

In Latin America, it's getting a lot more prevalent, but I've seen it everywhere in evangelical churches, not as prevalent in Reformed ones, but in evangelical, yes.

Well, we have to go to our first commercial break. And when we come back, I'd like to pick up on what was the political and religious atmosphere of Russia in the early 20th century that led them to be hungry for Marx's ideas, how they became popular in Russia, where Marx was from Germany, as you mentioned, and why they were so enthusiastically adopted by a great number of the populace in Russia.

But if you have questions of your own, folks, please send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. Welcome back.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Joe Owen, and we are discussing his book,

The Gospel According to Marx, Stripping Political Rhetoric from the Kingship of Jesus.

If you have a question for Joe, give us an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Before I return to our conversation about Karl Marx, I wanted to make sure that we plug the two events that Joe Owen is participating in in Pasadena, Texas, the first in May and the second in June.

I want to make sure that we do it now so I don't forget to do that and have

Corey Johnson and Butch Wilmer put me on their enemy list for not promoting their events.

If you could, tell us about the first one. It's on Saturday, May 30th, and it is on the theme,

Godlessness in the Last Days. That's Saturday, May 30th, 9 a .m.

to 4 p .m. Tell us about that. I'm very excited.

Again, I'm in an average of two to three countries every month for the last 14 years, but they're all mostly

Spanish -speaking, and then now some in Europe. But this is some of the few opportunities I get to do something in English.

Corey Johnson's been a great friend of mine for many years. I love his work on Benjamin Keech's Theology of Children.

He is a pastor at Providence Baptist Church, which is in the Houston area, but it's the one that's right next to NASA.

And then Butch Wilmer, he just retired as an astronaut at the end of last year.

He was the one who was kind of stuck in space for almost a year. Yes, I interviewed him on that, and he wrote a very wonderful commendation for my show.

And by the way, I've also interviewed Corey several times, so our listeners can look up those interviews later on on IronTripandZionRadio .com

in the PAST program archive.

If you type in Pasadena, Texas, all of those interviews will come up with Corey and Butch on the website.

Go ahead, I'm sorry. Oh, no, that's fine. And so in this event, I'll be speaking a little bit on artificial intelligence, more of the tech community's eschatology, and I'll be explaining that about where they're trying to go with it, and some things we should take into mind and take into thought about training in our homes, in our churches, and also about identity.

The most work I do is on identity and connecting the Marxist philosophy of history with identity in the postmodern era, and how everybody's so confused about identity today and about a true identity in Christ, instead of one based on feelings from a very evil heart that we have.

And so I'm very excited to do that in English, and we'll have books available, some great literature.

I've traveled even to Ecuador with Corey. I've preached even in jails with Butch, and actually he and I travel an average of four to five times a year for the last eight or nine years now, everywhere speaking together.

And so I really encourage people who are in the Texas area, I pray this is gonna be a very thought -provoking conference, lay -friendly, and a way to discuss how can we, without being reactionary in the more fundamentalist groups that the

Lord has used with inerrancy and all that in the past, but how can we not just be reactionary, but be exegetical and then pastoral with taking that into our homes and churches?

And so I'd really like to meet some people at this conference. And you've got to let me know, just out of curiosity, it doesn't sound like you are optimistic a -mil or post -mil from the theme.

I'm just curious if you are more pessimistic in your eschatology because of your reference to the last days, and I could be wrong.

No, I think I'm more optimistic a -mil, more like Sam Waldron, his line.

But the tech groups with AI, they have an eschatology of their own.

And I've been reading through their material for the last three years, Life 3 .0 by Max Tegmarkt, from a professor and heads up some of these societies, and reading on Elon Musk and his transhumanism, et cetera, and the debate they're having even right now about what brings meaning to the universe.

And the debate is, well, humans are the first time that the universe looks back on itself because they're materialistic.

And so self -awareness is what brings meaning to the universe.

And so why not promote digital self -awareness and a 3 .0

kind of AI that's self -aware? And because we are made of matter, matter cannot travel the speed of light.

And so we can only get meaning to the universe as humans to a small section.

But if it's digital, we can bring more meaning to the universe, even if humans have to be extinct.

Even if we go in the way, that's not what's important. And so that's the debate, especially between Elon Musk, which is transhumanist, and like Larry Page from Google, who's on the other side saying that human life is not important, and digital life may be more important, and AI should have its own rights.

You know, that's the telos, that's the eschatology that these people are working in, and we need to recognize that.

That'll help us be very careful with this and have a true gospel answer for it.

That's the point. I'm not as pessimistic though. And once again, that's Saturday, May 30th, 9 a .m.

to 4 p .m. at Providence Baptist Church of Pasadena, Texas. And then after that, on June 1st, you are going to be doing a conference with Ryan Davidson, who is

Associate Professor of Pastoral Theology at the International Reform Baptist Seminary in Texas.

And that conference that you're doing with Ryan is on June 1st, and that is on the theme,

Guarding the Flock. It's actually a pastor's conference on Guarding the

Flock. Tell us about that. Corey Johnson, who we've mentioned a few times, he is kind of the one heading this up.

He will know more information about it than I am, but as far as I understand in my conversations with Corey, we're going to be dealing with gender distinctives in a relativistic world, and the importance of complementarianism, that binary, in a world that's against binaries, that now egalitarianism is creeping into even the church, and how to understand how is

Christ glorified through biblical complementarianism.

So it's taking some of more difficult issues on a pastoral level, maybe going a little bit deeper with the pastors, a little bit more interactive with them, without it just being polemics, which it'll end up being controversial no matter what you do.

But that's not the intention, though. And I wish

Corey was here. He could give more background, because I was invited to speak there, and he knows more about what's behind it all.

But that's as far as I understand. And that date, again, is

Monday, June 1, 2026. I don't have the times in front of me on this flyer, but you could get all the details that you need by going to providence -bc .com,

providence -bc .com, and you'll be able to find out more about registering for both of these events.

And going back to Karl Marx, and as I was saying before the commercial break,

I wanted to know what made Russia ripe for indoctrination into the philosophy of a

German philosopher, Karl Marx, who died 34 years prior to the

Russian Revolution. And again, to those who are scholars on this,

I just want to always be careful there, because I do more on his philosophy of history with postmodernism. But reaching a little bit further back, which

I do teach about in this book, I really am grateful to Jeffrey Johnson in this book,

What Every Christian Should Know About Social Justice. It's a very small book. It's you can read it in one or two settings.

And he talks about the... Now, what I'm going to say is going to make sense in a minute.

In a minute, it sounds like I'm avoiding the question, but it's actually the segue into answering it in a bigger, in a more bigger way about where the

West was going and the East also. So in the

Western world, Jeffrey Johnson talks about Aristotle's rhetorical triangle.

You have the ethos, the author. I say this because I'm a doctor.

The authority that I have in that. I tell my children to wash their hands when they're little because I'm your dad,

I'm your father, if they ask me about it. But then there's also logos. And that is if I reason with the child, because of bacteria, because of hygiene.

And then there's ethos, which is the... Logos is the objective logic, ethos,

I mean, pathos, I'm sorry. The third one is the subjective experience, feelings, subjective values.

So you have authority, rationality or logic, and then you have subjective experience, subjective values, subjective subjectivity, feelings, emotions.

And I love how Jeffrey Johnson... And the reason why I keep saying Jeffrey Johnson is because I don't want to plagiarize and act like this comes from my ideas.

And I even asked Jeffrey Johnson if I could mention that in my book before I did, because I wanted to be careful with that.

And he allowed me to. But those three points are how the without Christ has been looking for identity as well.

And the ethos, somebody would say, we know that in the Western world and the monarchies in the

Western world about someone say she has royal blood. It's as somebody who's born with their relative, how they are closely tied into the monarchy or authority.

And then that marries somehow with the church and Romanism. When we see that we have the

Holy Roman Empire in English. And then the Holy Roman Empire, it is brought down a lot by Napoleon Bonaparte and many other factors.

And then now people are going to look for identity and logos in their reasoning. And that's the

European Enlightenment. But rationalism from the European Enlightenment falls in the 20th century, especially 1914, beginning

World War I, all the failing deterministic predictions of Marx. And that's where we go into pathos.

Romanticism comes from the 17th century now into the Western world, popular feelings, my feelings and my subjectivity tells me who

I am, what truth is, et cetera. Well, so you have these monarchs falling and a feudalism falling in the

West all the way back to 17th, 18th centuries, but in the

East, not as much. And so we go all the way into the 20th century was still a

Russian empire, like a monarchy. And so Marx's ideas are perfect for that to bring the proletariat or the bottom feeders, speaking in a demographic sense, not in value, of course, of what would be seen as that of that group to come together and to topple the monarchy left in the

East under Russia. And there were two groups in Russia, one group, the socialist democratic party that wanted to do this, one group and the minority, let me see if I can pronounce this right, the

Mensheviks, they thought it should happen through a slow democratic process, but then the bigger group, the

Bolsheviks, through revolution. And so it gives them this way of doing it.

And of course, in some of these monarchies, you're gonna have people that are kind of stuck on the bottom. And that's something that I think we can learn a lot from history as well, is that just because somebody points out an issue, a problem, doesn't mean then they have authority on the answer.

And I think that's a lot of what we're seeing. Some groups today will do the same thing. Well, aren't there men, like where I live in Latin America, who have beaten their wife?

Aren't there men who don't give their wives, you know, even human dignity? And so since they're pointing that out, then if I don't buy their solution,

I must be part of the problem. And so that's what we're seeing in an agrarian society of Russia and China, also agrarian, and it was at the cost of multiple millions of lives.

It did not happen naturally to the proletariat as it was supposed to happen, according to Marx.

And so it's kind of, that's why people call it Leninist, you know, Marxism, because it was in a way that Marx did not project that it would happen.

I mean, you had genocide for it to happen almost. Okay, this actually is great for a segue, because you were really starting to answer the question of a listener in Western New York.

Let's see, we have

Robert in West Seneca, New York, who says, it is often said by those proclaiming to be socialists in the

United States and elsewhere that there is a chasm of difference between socialism and communism, and they will often laugh and mock those that dare to describe them as communists.

But is there really such a big difference between socialism and communism?

And you just really were saying, as I've heard it said, that the only difference between socialism and communism is that socialists want their ideology to have victory through votes, where the communists want it to happen through bullets and bombs.

And so is that saying that I've heard correct?

I would say so. But I would also add that that's only in theory, because as you're even seeing in the

States right now, it's not through votes. If you don't agree, then you are canceled.

And so in a post -industrial revolution era and a social media era, you are.

But they do put a bullet in you by closing your account or by making you lose your job or you lose effectiveness.

So you have no more impact of breath, even though you still have an anatomical breath left in your lungs.

You know what I mean? So it ends up being kind of the same thing. One way is to shut you down biologically.

The other one is to shut you down as if it were biological, because you have no more impact. So you're really making, though, the case that there is virtually little to no difference between the two philosophies.

Yeah, no, I think that, again, we're talking more about the socioeconomic side, which is a little different from the postmodern side.

But I think that they all tie together in a way. I think socialism is a way to sell communism without openly saying we're going to bring a revolution and a dictatorship.

During the pandemic, I spent in Mexico, and that's something

I saw where, wow, you do not need an army and guns to create a dictatorship today.

You can render people ineffective through legislation, through controlling whether they can work where they can work, if they can meet to worship the

Lord, etc. And so I think more and more it's difficult to see the difference between the two.

By the way, Robert, if you email me your full mailing address in West Seneca, New York, you'll receive a free copy of the book we are addressing today,

The Gospel According to Marx, Stripping Political Rhetoric from the Kingship of Christ.

And that is compliments of our friends at Cantaro Press.

And we thank them so much for being so generous to our listeners today. Cantaro Publications is actually the actual name of the publisher.

We are going to our midway break right now. If you would also like to join us, and we do have some people waiting for their questions to be asked and answered right now, but if you'd like to join us as well on the air with a question of your own, please send it to chrisorenson at gmail .com.

chrisorenson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. It is much more than an exposition of the larger catechism.

It is a thoroughly researched work utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Moorcraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Columbia, Georgia. And I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight volume commentary, go to Westminster commentary .com

Westminster commentary .com. For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

Heritage Presbyterian Church .com Heritage Presbyterian Church .com.

Please tell Dr. Moorcraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the

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Joe Owen on the gospel according to Karl Marx. That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. We have a listener named

Daryl in Baytown, Texas. Daryl asks, you were saying moments ago that there is not very much difference at all between socialism and communism.

But I think that I have also heard it exaggerated how much the difference was between the

Nazi party or fascism and communism. I do recognize the difference between the global aspect of communism and the nationalistic aspect of Nazism and fascism.

But at the same time, are not their philosophies very similar? By the way, just to remind everybody,

I am in Mexico. Things are unpredictable here, and the neighbors are doing some...

I hope you don't hear the noise they're making now to their... No, I don't. Oh, good. I can hear it loud.

I apologize. Again, we keep kind of going into the socioeconomic and the government side of it.

I just don't want people to make sure... I want to make sure people understand that I'm speaking of the postmodern ideologies and how they all have a

Marxist philosophy of history underpinning them. We haven't really gotten to that yet. But yes, it's the fascist party.

The Nazis was a socialist party and even had that in their name. Kind of think of it this way, in a general speaking way, a communist would be to take no borders necessary, all borders are wrong, and you can even see the vestige of that when people speak about borders today, the big debate today in politics about borders.

That's a very globalistic way of thinking, which is very, very communist.

Or Marxist, I'm sorry, it's more Marxist mindset. And the fascism is very different, have very established borders and have them grow as an empire over.

And of course, there's so many nuances that have to be made. It's incredible. I can play the devil's advocate debate against myself and everything

I just said. We have to go in the

Nietzsche to really see that as far as the Nietzsche was almost even making fun and lamenting over the rationalists saying, they think that they can just say

God is dead. But they don't understand that you can't just kill God and let it be over.

You have to replace him and you'll need the Ubermensch or the great big man to take his place, a new ethic.

And then so that comes down into a very practical way with the Aryan race, the new ethic, the pure race, that's the new man that's going to replace

God. And then you're going to expand that through imperialism instead of saying all borders are down.

You know what I'm saying? So it has so many similarities. It has so many differences. And I'm not a socioeconomic professor to go into all the nuances in there.

But what I deal more mostly is with the Marxist metanarrative being used to reinterpret the gospel, especially in today's postmodern ideologies.

And that is what did survive. Marxism failed. In Latin America, you have a few people that still really liked it, especially in the

Cold War, because the Soviet Union was pumping Latin America with their propaganda through their media.

And that's why when you go to Latin America, you have large regions of people who have always doubted that we ever went to the moon.

Now it's just kind of in the United States, this is kind of like a new thing or something that's coming back.

It's fun to say that we never went to the moon and all that. But that is a big thing that's always been in Latin America through propaganda,

Soviet propaganda. It's all psychological there. But Marxism fell.

And around 1923 and 1926, you have these

Marxists from the Marxist group in Hungary and Germany coming together and writing materials and saying, what happened?

Why didn't why are people embracing their slavery to the capitalist system?

And what happened is they start saying, well, we need to go back to Marx's earlier works and start rejecting some of the later, where Marx was more

Hegelian in his earlier works. And it's this idea that the people who are oppressed are almost in today's terms, brainwashed into thinking that there is an objective evil and objective good.

For instance, in the Western world, we speak a lot in the United States about honor, about virtue, about not being a traitor.

How do we see a traitor in the United States? And we just see that as one of the worst things you can be a traitor and you should have honor.

And they'll say, yes, those are not really good things. What it is, is that in feudalism, that's how you keep oppressed people to be loyal, even when it doesn't go for their favor, is that ideology putting that into them.

And so what we need to do is start breaking that ideology, not through a revolution with sword, but through a revolution with the pen.

And we need to start going into what is sciences, what is law, music, art.

And we need to start seeing what kind of factors are in art and music and law and education that are brainwashing people into hugging, embracing their lowly affair and thinking, boy, it's just good to be...

And then that's why religion was the opiate of the masses for Marx. So he writes that in some of his political writings.

Because religion or God, people are, well,

I do not consider my present sufferings anything to compare with the future glories that are coming.

So right now, yes, even though we're oppressed, we're not going to take out a sword because we're going to have a pie in the sky, heaven, glory.

And so people aren't willing to fight because you have to take somebody's hope away from their illusory or their illusion of happiness to come in another world for them to be desperate enough to fight for it here.

And what I'm speaking of now is critical theory, which was a group of Jewish scholars in Frankfurt who are trying to understand the mindset of fascism.

And then those ideas come to the United States because of Hitler. They first go to Geneva in 1933, and then they go a couple of years later to Manhattan, and are taken in by Columbia University in Manhattan.

And these professors, they take this critical theory that we need to deconstruct art, deconstruct music, deconstruct everything academic from its inherently discriminatory, brainwashing, ideology -forming power.

And that's where we're getting all this deconstructive stuff from. And then you take that to the Christian faith, and boy, yes, everything before us, yes,

Jesus was actually a revolutionary. If you could say he's a Che Guevara or a

Fidel Castro revolutionary, there are even images of Jesus with a Che Guevara revolution hat in Latin America going around.

And the church, the church distorted the whole message since then and turned it out to what it is now.

So we must embrace the minorities on the binary.

If they are LGBTQ community, Jesus would just hug them and say, yes, you are oppressed.

God loves you the way you are. You can only sin if you're an oppressor, so they can't sin because it's like you can't be racist unless you are on the top of this binary.

And so if you are a minority in ethnic composition or history, you can hate somebody all you want.

You cannot be called a racist because all sin has to do with power, not to do with the intentions of your heart.

You've never had the power to sin. And so mix that with the gospel. What gospel message do I have now? I have no gospel message for anybody.

And so if you just take what Marx did with saying, you have the bourgeoisie in Spanish, I think they say in English bourgeois, and anybody who speaks

French is probably gonna be very angry for me with that terrible pronunciation. And you have the proletariat, right?

Bourgeois, the word comes from like townspeople, which is the medium, which is the mid and higher class, right?

They own, they have capital and they have property and they run production. And then the working class, the proletariat, they are the, you know, and so Marx only did it to these two.

What people are doing now is they're saying no to all binaries in society.

You have, if you say there are only men and women, you're creating a binary, there's no fluidity, so you're promoting oppression.

If you preach about biblical marriages with one man and one woman, oh, you're teaching heteronormativity.

You're teaching ideology that is going to actually be oppressive to those who are homosexual or, you know, everything else in the rainbow of variations.

So if I share the gospel with somebody about repenting and believing in Christ, because they're living a sinful lifestyle that's showing me the fruit of someone who does not gonna inherit the kingdom of God, so it is not in Christ, they will say, but aren't you using your privileged position of heteronormativity,

Caucasian, imperialistic, colonialistic history? Aren't you using the Aristotelian logic, because even logic is oppressive, mathematics is oppressive, because logic and truth by definition are exclusive of everything that contradict them.

So aren't you not being inclusive of other epistemologies? And, you know, and then so you go to the

Bible and Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life, and that truth is going to exclude.

Nobody comes to the Father except for me. Everybody before me were liars. And the gospel becomes very, very anti -tolerant, intolerant.

And so, and, you know, this happened in a very different, somewhat similar way in the

Baptist Union in England in Spurgeon's day. Spurgeon's main opponent and the, in Spanish called the

Grande Clive, and the, so that translates to the Great Decline, but I know we don't say it like that in English.

There's a word we use for that in English. But anyways, the big problem Spurgeon had with the Baptist Union when they're going liberal, his main opponent spoke about a social gospel.

And we see that it started coming into the Baptist and Evangelical Church in England at the end of the 19th century, and then in the beginning of the 20th century into the

States a little bit. It didn't go that far, but now it's, I believe it's going a lot further because it's so hidden and compassionate language like social justice, like rights.

And history is rewritten as just a bunch of evil people calling themselves

Christians with slaves. And then you go back and read Wilberforce and he's saying, no, slavery never could have happened in England if it weren't for the enlightenment, determinism, materialistic determinism, and never through a biblical worldview of slavery, like the

Atlantic slavery, transatlantic slavery that came out of the enlightenment.

You read this stuff and say, wow, Netflix has lied to me about how it drew up history. Anyways, kind of going off on a little rant there on the side, but I think the main point there is, is that if you take the restricted

Marxism on capital, binary about these two classes, and you take it to all distinctions, that's the postmodern one, and how now you have critical race theory in most of the

United States, intersectionality. Intersectionality is funny.

It's weird. Let's say, okay, my wife is Mexican, right?

My wife is Mexican. We have six children. Now, my wife is from a

Mexican town. Let's say we're in the United States. So my wife is a woman. So she is on the bottom side of the binary of power.

So she is discriminated as a woman, but she's also, she's a darker skin.

So she's discriminated for being a darker skin person. She's also Mexican. So she's discriminated against because she's in the bottom side of the binary from not being

Caucasian, but she's also a dark skin woman. So that gives you another level of discrimination against her.

She's also a Mexican woman. That's another level. She's also a dark skin Mexican woman, and that's intersectionality, how they all intersect.

And then so the gospel, the church should be about making it to where there is no normativity in our society.

Everybody should have everything the same. And the values of each person should be respected equally.

If I believe a man and a man can be together, you cannot impose your imperialist, colonialist idea of only man and woman against me.

And so the church loses all its power, and the church's only role in this new society is to bring equal happiness and equality for everybody, no matter what their values are.

And that is something for people that are my age and older, it's hard for us to grasp that, because we're used to classical

Marxism. We're used to USSR. I was alive in the breaking up of the USSR with Reagan and all that.

But this new generation, the ones that were born in the 2000s, they have experienced none of that. They are buying onto the social justice side of it.

And that's why in this book, I'm trying to close the gap between those born in the 20th century and those born in the 21st century, so we can start talking about these things.

We have a question that comes up, I think, every single time the subject of socialism or communism is discussed as far as its application in our modern age.

And we have Doyle from Portland, Tennessee.

Oh, and by the way, Doyle, I know of an excellent Reformed Baptist Church in Portland, Tennessee, Trinity Reformed Baptist Church, if you are not already aware of it.

Doyle says, Every socialist that I have ever heard in the political arena, or even sometimes from Hollywood and other places, will try to rub in the faces of Christians the text that we read in Acts 4, 32 through 35, which says, and the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and not one of them claimed that anything belonged to him was his own, but all things were common property to them.

And with great power, the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the

Lord Jesus Christ, and abundant grace was upon them all, for there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.

Can you please give us the best way to refute the notion that this is a blueprint for socialism or communism?

1. We do not see the formation of a theocracy in the

New Testament. That's a descriptive, not a prescriptive text, that's a descriptive text in Acts of the church, and of a church that is undergoing persecution.

And you connect that also with the epistles you see, especially those of Peter, of the diaspora, the church being, and telling him

God does not forget his promise, because for him, one day is like a thousand years, a thousand years is like one day, and Jesus will return.

And so you're preparing this church, it was describing a church that's later in the epistles, helping them continue to prepare for living for the glory of Christ in a world that is persecuting them.

And the big problem you have with that is that you have no property to give for your church as an offering or sell to help out your church if you don't have some in the first place.

If you go to Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5, does not

Peter tell them that it was their property, they voluntarily, and so let's say in some socialists, like, okay, for instance, we do a lot with Venezuela and Latin America, I have a lot of Venezuelan friends, and they tell me how the government took away their family's properties.

And guess who keeps those properties, not the people, the dictator. You know, there's always the rich and the really stinking rich, and then the people who have nothing, and in these socialist countries, everyone

I've seen, I've been in Cuba a few times actually, is just a fewer people in the government have those riches, it's just who has it.

And so, how can we, you know, what we see in the epistles about being a freely given you know,

God loves the person who freely gives, right? Well, I can't give it if it belongs to the government.

And also, remember the 10 Commandments about envying your neighbor's property and belongings.

This is a system that is promoting envy and not being content with what the

Lord has given you, but comparing yourself and thinking that what somebody else has belongs to you.

So it's promoting even sin against what we see in the 10 Commandments. And so, to say how a church, a descriptive text about how a church is surviving in persecution, and there's no prescription in that text for the church, to say how worldly governments should set up, you have to cross the boundaries.

We're talking about different covenants. And also, if the government owns everything, then the people in the church won't get anything, because nobody has anything to give each other.

And so, it just, it tears it apart on every level. Yes, I even heard very recently, just maybe a week ago, an evangelical who was a guest on Tucker Carlson's podcast, who was describing the first century church as a socialist group.

Now, he wasn't apparently left -wing or anything like that, but it was strange to hear him say that that's what the early church, how the early church functioned.

That wasn't his main point. I was agreeing with everything else he was talking about. He was exposing the word -of -faith heretic that is

Trump's spiritual advisor, the woman whose name just flew out. Yeah, Paula White. Yes, yes, yes.

So I was agreeing with most of what he was saying, but it was strange to hear him say that. Yeah, if the church were to be socialist, that means that all the church should get all the property together and give it to Rome, and then ask

Rome to take care of the church. There you go. You see nothing like that in the text, what he's talking about.

There you go. Joey in New Rochelle, New York, we're going to go to your question when we return from our final break, so be patient.

And there's a couple of others we will try to squeeze in. And once again, if you have a question, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. I'm Dr.

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. And we are now back with my guest,

Joe Owen, and we're talking about his book, The Gospel According to Marx. And as promised,

I'm reading Joey and New Rochelle's question first.

Hi, Joe. Can you please clarify something about the relationship between non -binary controversies and Marx's teaching?

Are they just making a logical extension of Marx's view of oppressing and oppressed classes?

If so, would it be fair to say that non -binary social applications are actually not even truly

Marxist? Oh, that is, wow. So that is a question

I was waiting to hear. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, so there is the debate today on many trying to reinterpret

Marx's philosophy of history. And so saying that what we're seeing today does not have a

Marxist underpinning, which I believe that is totally false. I think Carl Truman does a great job in proving that, especially in some of his newer works.

Let me see, this one, I just read it, one that came out in October of last year, but I want to get into that anyways.

Well, I had it here, but what is it called? Anyways, I won't go to that right now.

But Carl Truman, I think, does a great job. And a book came out in October, September, October of,

I think, last, yeah, last year, where he spends the whole time dealing with critical theory from the

School of Frankfurt and its application today. But, and he's proving that it's

Marxist. But here's what I'd like to say on that.

So Marx teaches that we need, and I'm gonna use today's terms, but there's a reason for that.

We need a non -binary society, okay? As far as capital and property, a non -binary society where everything is shared, it's fluid, right?

What's mine today is yours tomorrow. It's all fluid, a classless society, because society produces greed.

Society produces evil. It does not come from the human heart. So, you know, it's a totally different gospel.

Even Spurgeon, by the way, Spurgeon preached against this, by the way. I don't know how many people know that. I've quoted him a lot in the book.

And then so when Marxism fails, you have Marxist scholars saying, okay, the proletariat did not come together in industrialized nations and take -

Uh -oh, we got - Because of ideology that was put into them, they think that the -

Now, listen to this very carefully. The subjective values of those who are - who have power are taught to the ones below as if there were an objective evil, an objective good.

But those are really just the subjective values that bring the best return to those.

And so how do we do that? We need to find all groups, all groups who are on the bottom binary of the minority as far as number and as far as power and free from them what's taught as good and evil, right and wrong of the ones in the majority.

So let's think about that. The majority -

So God's law and God's word, it's not arbitrary.

It's not just saying, you know, God just says, well, I think I just want to be glorified this way. And so I'm just going to make something out arbitrary for you to do.

It's actually, it's what works with his design for his glory as well. So when you follow

God's word, for like, for instance, a family, it also brings natural benefits.

It's not arbitrary. A society built on a family where the man is the pastor, provider, and protector, self -sacrificing, look into Christ as an example of manhood where the wife is wanting to emulate into her role to point to Christ with respect to the church, like Ephesians 5.

When you raise your family that way and you're teaching them, what is that society going to look like?

That's going to be a very healthy society and longer lasting society. So the average, so the majority in a society that's really worked and then is mostly at peace and productive are going to be people who kind of go by those laws.

And so what these groups are saying, no, they're challenging that. No, they're holding onto the money to the privileges because they're in the majority.

So we need to break that by breaking the family, by breaking this idea of the parents teaching what it means to be a boy or a girl or a man or a woman.

We need to break the heteronormativity, they're calling it now, of making it normal for marriages to be men and women because that keeps creating the binary or the classes.

So if you want a classless society, you have to break the binary.

And by the way, if you want to see more on that, it's mostly Judith Butler's queer theory, what's called queer theory now.

And so that is, it's not Marxist as far as, okay, it's not

Marxist as far as strictly economically communist. Marx, see, that's not another thing.

Communism is just one outworking of Marxist metanarrative. And so if something is not strictly just communist or as far as economically, they're saying it's not

Marxist. Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on for a second. No, Marx had a whole metanarrative and taking that metanarrative to the economic side is where you get communism.

And so to say something goes beyond just the economic, it can be Marxist. I think that in logic, that's called a false translation.

You're going in the wrong way in the argument. So it is Marxist as far as his metanarrative, but it also does include socialism and communism and the economic side.

That's why today in postmodern world, what do we see now, for instance, in the

United States? What do you see at about any, what do they call it?

Any activist setting. What do you see? You see people holding up the LGBTQ flag, the gender ideology flag, and also with the sickle and the hammer, and also, you know, and talking about the capitalists, how to do it.

So they mix it all together. It doesn't exclude the economic and the property side.

It's just, it's broadened out more. And as far as the Truman book, it was likely either

The Desecration of Man or Strange New World. Do you remember if either one? No, Strange New World.

The Desecration of Man just came out last week. Right. Yeah, and so I'm about to start reading it.

I pre -purchased that one. But yeah, so, yes. So now the

Desecration of Man, I'm looking forward to reading that a lot, actually.

But the other one you mentioned, that one, I think it was October of 2025. 22, 22.

Oh, 22. Wow. Well, you know, as I get older, the years pass a lot quicker.

I'm noticing that. Which is depressing because I think you're about 20 years younger than me. I turned 47 this month.

Well, I'm 64. But anyway, thanks, Joe. And you will get a free copy of the book as well.

And please take the remaining minute, brother, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about the book.

Yeah, so I just want to, you know, I really thank you for this opportunity,

Chris. And thank you all that are watching. And also to please understand, especially if you are older than maybe 35 years old, there is a big gap between what millennials are understanding as far as Marxism, as far as justice go, than what we who have lived, even seen the

Soviet Union fall and all that, and the evils of, you know, communist China. There's a big difference there.

And this book is to try and bridge that gap. It has to do with identity. Identity, who am

I and what rights and what is just. And I would really encourage everybody for our love of the bride of Christ and her future.

This next generation needs a lot of clarity on what it means to be human, a man, a woman, a society, a church, and also what true justice is.

The one that speaks a better, cries out of a better justice than that of April.

And that is the blood of Christ. Amen. And folks, don't forget the website to find out more about Joe Ellen is contaroinstitute .org,

C -A -N -T -A -R -O, institute .org. And also don't forget about the special events that Joe is speaking at in May and June, providence -bc .com,

providence -bc .com. I wanna thank you so much for doing such an exquisite job today,

Joe. I wanna thank everybody who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.