WWUTT 2595 Q&A Avoiding Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong, Being Calvinist in an Arminian Church, What is Kinism

What do you do if your church is singing Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong? What do you do if you're a Calvinist but your church is not? And what is Kynism, and is that what Christians should be? The answers to these questions and others, when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study to encourage your time in the Word, because faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .wtt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky.

You're welcome.

That was the verse I just preached on this past Sunday.

Yeah.

Romans 10, 17. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ. Let me start with Psalm 57. Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me, for in you my soul takes refuge. In the shadow of your wings I will take refuge till the storms of destruction pass by.

I cry out to God most high, to God who fulfills his purpose for me. He will send from heaven and save me. He will put to shame him who tramples on me. Selah. God will send out his steadfast love and his faithfulness.

My soul is in the midst of lions. I lie down amid fiery beasts, the children of man whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Be exalted, O God, above the heavens. Let your glory be over all the earth.

Well, this is the Friday edition of When We Understand the Text, when we take questions from the listeners, and you can submit those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com or send a voicemail.

I said in this period of time that I wasn't going to be on the air on the podcast this week. Maybe I would get the website finished.

Yeah.

But it's still junky.

It still sits there.

It's still unfinished. But you can go to www .wwutt .com, and if you click on the contact page, it will give you the link to send us a voicemail, which you can record using your phone or your computer.

I haven't received a lot lately. We're on like a very low voicemail turnout. April could have been like the fewest number of voicemails that we've ever received.

Wow.

And I know it's because of the website.

Ah, yes, probably.

I know that's the reason why.

Aw.

So I just got to get that back up and running in a smooth fashion where you don't have to navigate too hard to find it and that you don't have to type in all those W's in order to get to it.

W-W-W-W-W-W-W.

Dot W-W-W-W-W-W-U-T-T. Just kidding.

Yeah.

So welcome back to the program, babe.

Thank you.

We didn't have an episode last week because I had no voice. I'm still struggling even to kind of hold on to it now.

Yeah.

I'm not back up to 100%. It's about 60%.

It's closer, though.

It is.

You at least have a voice now.

Monday was like this.

He sounded like an old man.

Oh, man.

It was weird.

I don't even know what was going on.

You know, the really, really old where your voice box isn't working or your vocal cords aren't working.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or didn't have enough breath support or something.

I don't know what it was.

Yeah.

Was it allergies?

I don't know.

Annie hasn't been feeling well.

No.

So our oldest hadn't been well. I replaced all the air filters in the house.

Woo-hoo.

Which, if you're not from Arizona-ish area, you do have to do that about monthly because it's really dusty here.

You have to do it often. And I had not done it since before we went on our trip. So it was due. It was time for me to replace all the filters. And I'm hoping that's clearing me up and it's going to make Annie feel better.

We'll see.

We'll see.

We'll see if it was an air filter problem.

Yeah.

Hopefully. Hopefully it was that easy.

Yes.

When I was working on the pulpit this week, so I'm building a new pulpit. Since our church is now meeting over at a middle school, I wanted to build a pulpit that was a little more mobile.

Right.

Because the one that I built a couple years ago, that thing's heavier than me.

It's sturdy.

Yeah.

It's a very heavy pulpit. I was going for the whole helm of the ship. Look, you know. Like there was that Babylon Bee article that talked about like

It doesn't look like that.

The quality of your pulpit.

It has good quality though.

Yeah.

It's very good quality. But everybody's going to have like super buff, you know, lifting it and everything.

I did make it to be very heavy. But this one is lighter, probably half the weight. And anyway, in the process of working on that, the wind will stir up the dust in the air and that will irritate me. I'll start sneezing.

So it has probably been working outside, a combination of the sawdust and the dirt in the air.

Yep.

Because it is that season in southern Arizona. All right, let's get to some questions here. I got quite a few.

Yeah.

All of these have come to us via email. So once again, the email address, whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com. This one from Anonymous. Good evening, Pastor Gabe. So this was sent to us in the evening.

Mm-hmm.

Answering your call for more questions at the end of last Friday's episode, I decided to finally write in about something that has troubled me for a long time. My husband and I are members of a non-denominational church of about 130 people.

The preaching and teaching are biblically sound, but the music used is all pop praise. Bethel, Hillsong, Phil Wickham. I would imagine probably some Brandon Lake in there and stuff like that. The congregation often joins in only half-heartedly.

And with everything I've learned about those producers, I can't in good conscience sing any of their music at all. It has been years since I have sung in church. But what vexes me even more is that I don't even want to invite my unbelieving friends and relatives to church because of the music.

I would be embarrassed by the atmosphere or feel, or sorry, or feel like I have to make disclaimers about the wrong theology in the songs. I have considered approaching the elders with my concerns, but I haven't yet worked up the courage to do so.

What are your thoughts? Am I being too strict on this? Well, I understand the problem. If I attend, well, this isn't a problem anymore for me necessarily unless I go to the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting.

But when I was in other Southern Baptist churches, and we would have our regional meetings, and a song would come up that the worship artist, the praise leader is leading us in a song that I knew was Bethel, or I knew was Elevation, I just wouldn't sing it.

Yeah.

And it's fine that nobody else knows the problems. Perhaps they're all singing in ignorance of who it is that's actually written it.

Okay.

Which is fine for them.

Sure.

That could be. They can lift up those songs in praise to God. It's between you and God. And really, I could have done it as well. I'm not saying that.

You could have overlooked the fact of who it was by.

Right.

And just praise be to God.

Yeah, right.

But it's still like I know what's behind the theology of what we're singing because I know who wrote it. And I know it doesn't mean to the person who wrote it what it should mean to the people of God singing this as praise unto the Lord.

Right.

So it's happened before. And like even our kids, if they're in an environment where the song Reckless Love comes up, haven't our girls changed the chorus?

They change the chorus whenever we're at home in private. But if it's around their friends, they just don't sing that part.

Oh, I see.

That doesn't make sense to them.

So like when the praise channel on our Amazon Music or something like that, when Reckless Love comes on, they'll sing along with it, but they'll change the Reckless Love part. Is that what it is?

Yeah.

Oh, the never ending something, something Reckless Love of God. I can't remember how the chorus goes.

Yeah, I can't remember how they changed it though. It's been too long since I've heard them sing it.

Corey Asbury is the name of that artist. He's a weird guy too. That of course comes from Bethel Music. So our girls have changed lyrics. I've changed some lyrics to some things before too.

Yeah.

I've done it. But yeah, there are just some songs when they come on, I know. I can't in good conscience, because I can't unplug my conscience from who I know wrote this and what they mean by this lyric.

I know what they mean by that lyric.

It's all connected for you.

Right.

Yeah.

So it's really difficult for me to get there. So I understand.

However, me on the other hand, I can feign ignorance in that direction and just be like, this is between me and the Lord.

That's right.

So it just depends on your conscience, really.

Yeah.

Or your ignorance.

Or your ignorance.

Of course, I mean that and not like you're stupid.

No, no, no, no.

It's the whole ignorance is bliss.

Yeah.

It's the whole ignorance is bliss concept. It's better to just not know, and then you don't have the problem with should I be singing this or not. One of the most popular praise songs, and this has been the case for the past decade, at least, or at least within this decade, is the song The Goodness of God, which is a Bethel Church song.

Very popular song. It's probably the most popular praise song and has been for years.

Then I probably have heard it, but I don't recognize it at all.

Unquestionably, you've heard it. I mean, there's just no question that you've heard it.

Okay.

And friends of mine that don't like Bethel Elevation or Hill song, they will sing this song.

Okay.

I mean, it's a really easy, catchy song. It's a very simple lyric, and it's probably that you've heard it so much for so long that you may even be completely disconnected from who it's by because so many different artists have covered it now up to this point.

Oh, okay.

So you've probably heard a lot of different people do it, and therefore it's just a song I know. It's so familiar that when somebody else starts singing it, I can sing along with it. And it could be that sort of a thing.

The kinds of Hill song tunes that get repeated so often, and you know them, and so you can sing them, and you don't think about who this is by. It's just worship between you and God. One of the nice things about the old hymns that we sing is we don't really know a lot about those writers.

That's so true.

Yeah, we don't. I mean, we do know a lot about those writers. You can look them up. But just as common knowledge, we don't know about those writers.

Yes.

So I say all of that just to say that I relate with you here. I can understand the problem that you have with seeing that song come up, knowing who it's by, and then having a problem singing along with it.

I would recommend, again, this person's anonymous, but I would recommend that you talk to your elders. You've got to talk to your elders about it.

Of course.

You can't just continue on in this way and not have had a conversation about this.

Especially since, didn't she mention that she hasn't sung in years?

Yeah.

I mean, that's a big problem.

That is. That's a long time.

Because we are commanded, Colossians 3, Ephesians 5, that we are to lift up songs and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to God. And we're supposed to do this with the body of Christ.

Yeah.

That's so sad.

I'm not going to say you're causing a separation between you and the rest of the body by not joining along with them in singing, but there is a separation.

There is.

It's not that you're causing it. It could be because the music is just not well shepherded in your church. That could be the reason why. But there should not be this separation. We should be able to sing together and lift up our hearts in praise to God.

And it would be nice if the teachers of the church or the worship leader, whoever it might be, would be more discerning about who we're choosing to sing songs from.

I mean,.

Your pastor is always going to be selective about who he quotes in his.

Sermon.

He wouldn't quote someone like Richard Rohr, would he? I mean, Richard Rohr is a heretic.

Oh, okay. I'm like, I don't know.

He's a panentheist.

Yeah.

I mean, the guy is like a pastor approved by Oprah Winfrey.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She approves of Joel Osteen.

That's definitely a category.

Exactly.

Whoever Oprah approves of is not the kind of person that you want to be emulating or quoting in a sermon. Would your pastor quote Stephen Furtick favorably? As if Stephen Furtick actually is a credible and qualified teacher.

If your pastor wouldn't, then why are you singing Elevation Church songs? Would your pastor quote Bill Johnson, who is the pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California? Johnson's a heretic.

Yeah.

If he would not credibly quote Johnson, because he knows the problems with Johnson's theology, then why would you be singing Bethel Church songs? Would he quote, oh, now who's the guy who was Hillsong?

I can't remember his name now. He's not the pastor there anymore.

Anyway.

Yeah.

Like a Hillsong, Brian Houston. That's the guy. Would he quote Brian Houston favorably? As if there aren't theological problems, serious problems with Brian Houston. If he wouldn't quote him, then why would you be singing Hillsong tunes?

So we need to be that scrutinizing about the music.

Yeah.

If you would not quote their teachers, if you know their teachers would not be qualified to speak in your pulpit, then neither should their music be qualified to be sung in your services. And Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong have all said, they've all openly said that they use the music as a pipeline to get people into their churches and into their theology.

That's exactly what they're doing.

Yeah.

And I get emails all the time from people saying that either their church had started singing this kind of music, they had transitioned to starting to accept a few songs here and there, and then it became more and more and more of these songs.

And then they were convinced this is the way to win people from outside because it's the most recognizable music. Everybody's heard this stuff. They heard it at the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service. They'll hear it at these political things, like the 250th anniversary of the United States that's coming up.

Oh, yeah.

And then there's going to be a big, there will be a lot of praise songs that'll be sung there. It's all the pop praise, just as the synonymous person had mentioned. It's pop praise. So people know it, so we got to sing these songs because this is what the most number of people are going to feel comfortable singing when they come into our church.

And you'll see churches that will acquiesce on that. They will start accepting it. They will get warmer to it. It will be more and more of the songs that they sing, and it will affect and change the doctrine that you hear coming out of the pulpit as well.

Yeah.

It happens every time. It's a slow fade. It doesn't happen immediately.

Yeah.

But you start accepting a little bit here and there, and eventually

And your trajectory is totally off.

Exactly, right. I mean, it does demonstrate a trajectory. And like I said, I get emails from people all the time, from those who will say, you know, I was mad at you at one point because you're telling us not to sing these songs, and I like those songs.

I like singing them in church. I like singing them when I'm in private. But then I noticed two or three years later, sure enough, doctrinal changes are happening in our church, and it began with the kinds of songs we sang.

Yeah.

So that's why it's so important that you talk to your elders about this. But I wouldn't say, when you go to your elders, that you sit down with them and say, Gabe said our theology is going to change if we don't get back to singing more doctrinally sound tunes.

That's not my argument. But that you raise your concerns about Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation, and have those arguments prepared. Like listen to Justin Peters and Todd Friel talk about this on the YouTube videos that they've done together where they've talked about these songs, and Justin Peters goes into the problems with the doctrine and the theology of Bethel Church and Elevation and so on and so forth.

Have those arguments ready. Or if you know that your pastors already have a problem with guys like Bill Johnson and Stephen Furtick, then bring that argument up the way that I presented it. If you would not quote Bill Johnson, why are we singing their songs?

Why is that okay? And you do need to tell them too that you feel a conflict in your conscience that is preventing you from singing along with these songs.

Or even inviting people to church.

Yeah, or inviting people to church.

Because that's huge.

Yeah.

That is a big deal. And like I said, there is a separation here, and so you do need to do something about that. Not just let it remain as it is. It is a problem. But I appreciate you emailing and asking this question.

Let's take a moment now. We'll pray for this person.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

Sure.

Yeah.

And hope certainly that the Holy Spirit will be with you and upon your elders and recognize the need for more doctrinal soundness even in the songs that we sing. So let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the gift of music that you have given to us.

What a beautiful thing. And even when we don't know what to pray, we can go to a song and lift up praise in this way unto God. It is such a remarkable gift. So much that you've even given us a whole book of song lyrics.

The psalms that we have. So that we have an idea of what doctrinal soundness should sound like in our music. We can compare it with the scriptures. Take the scriptures, add it to song. And whatever songs we sing, we can test it with the scriptures and know this is pleasing unto the Lord.

May we choose songs and sing things that we know delight your heart. And I pray for this particular situation. This person who has emailed us and expressed a real concern with the kinds of songs that her church is singing.

Lord, I pray you would be with those elders. May they be discerning and may they be receptive to this correction when she and her husband have to go to them and say, here are the concerns that we have and here is what we're raising.

May they recognize that using songs that are not doctrinally sound has created some separation, some division, even within their body. And they will understand as shepherds, their responsibility to shepherd the body well.

And that includes being discerning with the kinds of songs that we sing together as a church and as a congregation. Lead us in right paths for your namesake. Help us to test the spirits for not every spirit comes from God and there are many false prophets that have gone out into the world.

May we know what is pleasing to God and lift those things up to you. Not as what makes us feel good, but what we know delights the Lord. And it's in Jesus' name that we pray. Amen.

Amen.

All right, this next one is from Jake. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. Greetings from Southern Alberta.

Oh, fun. Hello up there.

Your podcast is a blessing and I am a recently new listener. All glory to God. I embraced the doctrines of grace about three years ago and I can't see scripture in any other light. I was raised IFB, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, and King James only.

So the transition was interesting. The area where I live is heavily populated with Mennonites of which my wife is one. I currently am going to a Mennonite church. I was baptized in Mennonite church. So I love Mennonites.

But I understand the problems you're probably having here. So Jake goes on. So my question is this. How do I interact with and work with and worship with brethren that see Calvinism as evil and heresy?

Thank you and keep up the amazing work. In Christ your brother, Jake.

Ouch.

Yeah.

Yeah, that is tough.

Well, I was in this environment for a long time. Like I said, I was baptized in a Mennonite church. And I was not openly Calvinist because I didn't really know what that was. But I did love the doctrines of grace even before I knew what they were.

And I challenged my teachers on things that they said.

A lot.

That did not make me very popular.

Yeah.

Excuse me. So here's the result of my weak voice coming in here again. So how did I put up with that environment? Well, it's just picking and choosing your battles. You know where to say things and where not to.

And I love those brothers and sisters. To this day, I still love those brothers and sisters.

Yes.

By the way, one of those churches. So there were two churches that I was part of. There was the main Mennonite church in town. There was a Mennonite church that was out in the country. Which today, they used to be called Emmanuel Mennonite Brethren, I think was the name of it.

No, no, no, no.

I'm getting that wrong. Emmanuel Mennonite Church was the one that was in town. The one that was out of town was, yeah, I think it was Emmanuel Mennonite Brethren. I think that was the name of it.

EMB.

But anyway, so we just called them the in-town church and the country church. That's how we distinguished between the two. But now it's called Countryside Bible Church. So anyway, that church is now fully Calvinist.

So they openly embrace and believe in the doctrines of grace.

Whereas.

The one out of town.

Yeah, the one out of town. The one out in the country. And whereas when I was growing up, that was not the case. So you just gave it some time and their devotion to doctrinal soundness eventually led them to that place where they're at now.

Now, obviously, becoming Calvinist, they couldn't stay within the Mennonites.

Right.

So they're not Mennonite anymore. Even though a lot of the people that attend that church grew up Mennonite and are still very sympathetic to that. There's still a lot of German heritage there. So lovely congregation.

We actually just went back and visited there last month. Well, now it's May. It's May 1st.

It is.

Happy May Day, everybody.

May Day.

And so it was not April, but March when we were there. And Pastor Jonathan Dale, who's doing a remarkable job there.

Yes.

Keep up the great work.

Amen.

He's going through Romans right now. I'm in Romans also, but I'm in Romans 10. And I think he's now in Chapter 2. He was finishing up Chapter 1 when we were there. So probably on to Chapter 2 now. Anyway, so, yeah, it was just understanding where I knew where to speak and where not to.

And at what time to speak and what time not to speak. And it wasn't that I didn't talk at all.

Right.

I was also very young, so I tried to be respectful of my elders, not being the teenage upstart that's always kind of trying to upset everything. There were things that I had to learn from those brothers, and they led me in those things very well.

Well, because it sounds like it might be a tighter-knit community, maybe.

Yeah.

And Mennonite usually is.

Yes.

I recommend, like what Gabe said, I reaffirmed that take things slow and plant seeds instead of like, hey, this is, and then you drop the bomb.

Yeah.

Just planting seeds of like, well, I think this passage goes along with that. Well. And then you let them think on it and pray on it and meditate on it. And then maybe they'll come to you and ask more questions.

Right.

Asking questions about it rather than just, and when you are asking questions or when you are guiding and teaching, you're using scripture to do that.

Right.

So not trying to go total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints. There's the five doctrines of grace for you right there. So not trying to hit them over the head with tulip necessarily, but you understand what those doctrines are, and you know where scripture talks about them.

So where those scriptures pop up, whether it's in teaching at the Sunday school class, in conversation, talking about the sermon or whatever else. When verses have come up that you know are verses that make the argument with regard to a particular doctrine in the doctrines of grace, that's where to ask the question or kind of lead the discussion in that particular doctrine to challenge the person to be thinking about this a little bit more, according to what the scripture says.

Because the moment you drop one of the names of the doctrines of grace, you know what the reaction is going to be.

Yes.

Immediately the walls are going to go up. Immediately it's going to be, oh, that's Calvinism. So you have to get around whatever stereotype they have in their head or their biases or whatever else. Because, yeah, the Mennonite faith is kind of inherently Arminian.

Mennonite denomination, rather, is the way to put it. It is inherently Arminian. So you're trying to help get them to think about what scripture says, ask the questions according to what the Bible says, and avoiding those topics by name.

If the name is going to trigger, well, yeah, just leave it at that. If the name is going to trigger somebody, then avoid it.

Period.

And there could be, of course, that when you start talking about certain things, you may even use certain verbiage that will make a person go, oh, well, that sounds like Calvinism. I mean, unquestionably, you're going to run into that.

But you're still tiptoeing into it, not hitting them over the head with a sledgehammer.

Right.

And letting them, through the process of having to answer a question, work it out in their mind what the scripture is saying about this. It's one of the reasons why Jesus asked so many questions.

Yeah.

Because he's making the person that he's asking the question of work it out in their mind and have to formulate the answer according to what the Bible says. What do the scriptures say? Have you not read?

Yes.

Is what Jesus would say. So anyway, I hope that helps you out. Be patient with the people that are around you.

Definitely.

They're being patient with you, too.

Yes.

For sure.

Even though they may think that what you believe is heresy. Take that with a grain of salt, and you understand in your mind you don't know what you're saying when you call me that. You don't know what Calvinism is.

You just have a bias in your mind. You have some sort of caricature of what Calvinism is, and that's what you're responding to. But you don't know what the scripture says about this, or you just haven't worked out yet, made the connection between the scripture and the doctrine.

Right.