WWUTT 2595 Q&A Avoiding Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong, Being Calvinist in an Arminian Church, What is Kinism

What do you do if your church is singing Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong? What do you do if you're a

Calvinist but your church is not? And what is kinism, and is that what Christians should be? The answers to these questions and others, when we understand the text.

This is When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study to encourage your time in the Word. Because faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the

Word of Christ. Tell all your friends about our ministry at www .wtt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. That was the verse I just preached on this past Sunday.

Yeah. Romans 10, 17. Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ. Let me start with Psalm 57.

Be merciful to me, O God, be merciful to me. For in you my soul takes refuge.

In the shadow of your wings I will take refuge till the storms of destruction pass by.

I cry out to God most high, to God who fulfills his purpose for me.

He will send from heaven and save me. He will put to shame him who tramples on me.

Selah. God will send out his steadfast love and his faithfulness. My soul is in the midst of lions.

I lie down amid fiery beasts, the children of man whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords.

Be exalted, O God, above the heavens. Let your glory be over all the earth.

Well, this is the Friday edition of When We Understand the Text, when we take questions from the listeners, and you can submit those questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com

or send a voicemail. I said in this period of time that I wasn't going to be on the air, on the podcast this week.

Maybe I would get the website finished. Yeah. But it's still junky. It still sits there.

It's still unfinished, but you can go to www .wwutt .com, and if you click on the contact page, it will give you the link to send us a voicemail, which you can record using your phone or your computer.

I haven't received a lot lately. We're on like a very low voicemail turnout.

April could have been like the fewest number of voicemails that we've ever received. Wow. And I know it's because of the website.

Ah, yes, probably. I know that's the reason why. Aw. So I just got to get that back up and running in a smooth fashion where you don't have to navigate too hard to find it and that you don't have to type in all those

W's in order to get to it. W -W -W -W -W -W -W. Dot W -W -W -W -W -U -T -T.

Just kidding. Yeah. So welcome back to the program, babe. Thank you. We didn't have an episode last week because I had no voice.

I'm still struggling even to kind of hold on to it now. Yeah. I'm not back up to 100%.

It's about 60%. It's closer, though. It is. You at least have a voice now.

Monday was like this. He sounded like an old man. Oh, man. It was weird. I don't even know what was going on.

You know, the really, really old where your voice box isn't working or your vocal cords aren't working.

Yeah. Yeah. Or didn't have enough breath support or something. I don't know what it was. Yeah. Was it allergies?

I don't know. Annie hasn't been feeling well. No. So our oldest hadn't been well. I replaced all the air filters in the house.

Woo -hoo. Which, if you're not from Arizona -ish area, you do have to do that about monthly because it's really dusty here.

You have to do it often. And I had not done it since before we went on our trip. So it was due.

It was time for me to replace all the filters. And I'm hoping that's clearing me up and it's going to make

Annie feel better. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see if it was an air filter problem. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully it was that easy.

Yes. When I was working on the pulpit this week. So I'm building a new pulpit. Since our church is now meeting over at a middle school,

I wanted to build a pulpit that was a little more mobile. Right. Because the one that I built a couple years ago, that thing's heavier than me.

It's sturdy. Yeah. It's a very heavy pulpit. I was going for the whole helm of the ship look, you know.

Like there was that Babylon Bee article that talked about like. It doesn't look like that. The quality of your pulpit.

It has good quality though. Yeah. It's very good quality. But everybody's going to have like super buff, you know, lifting it.

Yeah. I did make it to be very heavy. But this one is lighter, probably half the weight.

And anyway, in the process of working on that, the wind will stir up the dust in the air and that will irritate me.

I'll start sneezing. So it has probably been working outside a combination of the sawdust and the dirt in the air.

Yep. Because it is that season in southern Arizona. All right.

Let's get to some questions here. I got quite a few. Yeah. All of these have come to us via email. So once again, the email address, when we understand the text at gmail .com.

This one from Anonymous. Good evening, Pastor Gabe. So this was sent to us in the evening.

Mm -hmm. Answering your call for more questions at the end of last Friday's episode, I decided to finally write in about something that has troubled me for a long time.

My husband and I are members of a non -denominational church of about 130 people. The preaching and teaching are biblically sound, but the music used is all pop praise.

Bethel, Hillsong, Phil Wickham. I would imagine probably some Brandon Lake in there and stuff like that.

The congregation often joins in only half -heartedly. And with everything I've learned about those producers,

I can't in good conscience sing any of their music at all. It has been years since I have sung in church.

But what vexes me even more is that I don't even want to invite my unbelieving friends and relatives to church because of the music.

I would be embarrassed by the atmosphere or feel, or sorry, or feel like I have to make disclaimers about the wrong theology in the songs.

I have considered approaching the elders with my concerns, but I haven't yet worked up the courage to do so. What are your thoughts?

Am I being too strict on this? Well, I understand the problem.

If I attend, well, this isn't a problem anymore for me necessarily, unless I go to the

Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting. But when I was in other Southern Baptist churches, and we would have our regional meetings, and a song would come up that the worship artist, the praise leader is leading us in a song that I knew was

Bethel, or I knew was Elevation, I just wouldn't sing it.

Yeah. And it's fine that nobody else knows the problems. Perhaps they're all singing in ignorance of who it is that's actually written it.

Okay. Which is fine for them. Sure. That could be. They can lift up those songs in praise to God.

It's between you and God. And really, I could have done it as well. I'm not saying that. You could have overlooked the fact of who it was by.

Right. And just praise be to God. Yeah, right. But it's still like I know what's behind the theology of what we're singing, because I know who wrote it.

And I know it doesn't mean to the person who wrote it, what it should mean to the people of God singing this as praise unto the

Lord. Right. So it's happened before. And like even our kids, if they're in an environment where the song

Reckless Love comes up, haven't our girls change the chorus?

They change the chorus whenever we're at home in private.

But if it's around their friends, they just don't sing that part. Oh, I see.

That doesn't make sense to them. So like when the praise channel on our

Amazon music or something like that, when Reckless Love comes on, they'll sing along with it, but they'll change the

Reckless Love part. Is that what it is? Yeah. Oh, the never ending something, something Reckless Love of God.

I can't remember how the chorus goes. Yeah, I can't remember how they changed it, though. It's been too long since I've heard them sing it.

Corey Asbury is the name of that artist. He's a weird guy, too. That, of course, comes from Bethel Music.

So our girls have changed lyrics. I've changed some lyrics to some things before, too. Yeah. I've done it.

But, yeah, there are just some songs when they come on, I know. I can't in good conscience, because I can't unplug my conscience from who

I know wrote this and what they mean by this lyric. I know what they mean by that lyric. It's all connected for you.

Right. So it's really difficult for me to get there. So I understand. However, me, on the other hand,

I can feign ignorance in that direction and just be like, this is between me and the Lord.

That's right. So it just depends on your conscience, really.

Yeah. Or your ignorance. Or your ignorance. Of course, I mean that and not like you're stupid.

No, no, no, no. It's the whole ignorance is bliss. Yeah. It's the whole ignorance is bliss concept.

It's better to just not know, and then you don't have the problem with should I be singing this or not. One of the most popular praise songs, and this has been the case for the past decade, at least, or at least within this decade, is the song

The Goodness of God, which is a Bethel Church song. Very popular song.

It's probably the most popular praise song and has been for years. Then I probably have heard it, but I don't recognize it at all.

Unquestionably, you've heard it. I mean, there's just no question that you've heard it. Okay. And friends of mine that don't like Bethel, Elevation, or Hill song, they will sing this song.

Okay. I mean, it's a really easy, catchy song. It's a very simple lyric, and it's probably that you've heard it so much for so long that you may even be completely disconnected from who it's by because so many different artists have covered it now up to this point.

Oh, okay. So you've probably heard a lot of different people do it, and therefore it's just a song I know. It's so familiar that when somebody else starts singing it,

I can sing along with it. And it could be that sort of a thing. The kinds of Hill song tunes that get repeated so often, and you know them, and so you can sing them, and you don't think about who this is by.

It's just worship between you and God. One of the nice things about the old hymns that we sing is we don't really know a lot about those writers.

That's so true. Yeah, we don't. I mean, we do know a lot about those writers. You can look them up, but just as common knowledge, we don't know about those writers.

Right. Yes. So I say all of that just to say that I relate with you here.

I can understand the problem that you have with seeing that song come up, knowing who it's by, and then having a problem singing along with it.

I would recommend, again, this person's anonymous, but I would recommend that you talk to your elders. You've got to talk to your elders about it.

Of course. You can't just continue on in this way and not have had a conversation about this.

Especially since, didn't she mention that she hasn't sung in years? Yeah. I mean, that's a big problem.

That is. That's a long time. Because we are commanded, Colossians 3, Ephesians 5, that we are to lift up songs and hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to God.

And we're supposed to do this with the body of Christ. Yeah. That's so sad.

I'm not going to say you're causing a separation between you and the rest of the body by not joining along with them in singing, but there is a separation.

There is. It's not that you're causing it. It could be because the music is just not well shepherded in your church.

That could be the reason why. But there should not be this separation. We should be able to sing together and lift up our hearts in praise to God.

And it would be nice if the teachers of the church or the worship leader, whoever it might be, would be more discerning about who we're choosing to sing songs from.

I mean, your pastor is always going to be selective about who he quotes in his sermon.

He wouldn't quote someone like Richard Rohr, would he? I mean, Richard Rohr is a heretic.

Oh, okay. I'm like, I don't know. He's a panentheist. Yeah. I mean, the guy is like a pastor approved by Oprah Winfrey.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She approves of Joel Osteen. That's definitely a category. Exactly. Whoever Oprah approves of is not the kind of person that you want to be emulating or quoting in a sermon.

Would your pastor quote Stephen Furtick favorably? As if Stephen Furtick actually is a credible and qualified teacher.

If your pastor wouldn't, then why are you singing Elevation Church songs? Would your pastor quote

Bill Johnson, who is the pastor of Bethel Church in Redding, California? Johnson's a heretic.

Yeah. If he would not credibly quote Johnson, because he knows the problems with Johnson's theology, then why would you be singing

Bethel Church songs? Would he quote, oh, now who's the guy who was

Hillsong? I can't remember his name now. He's not the pastor there anymore. Anyway. Yeah. Like a

Hillsong, Brian Houston. That's the guy. Would he quote Brian Houston favorably? As if there aren't theological problems, serious problems with Brian Houston.

If he wouldn't quote him, then why would you be singing Hillsong tunes? So we need to be that scrutinizing about the music.

Yeah. If you would not quote their teachers, if you know their teachers would not be qualified to speak in your pulpit, then neither should their music be qualified to be sung in your services.

And Bethel, Elevation, and Hillsong have all said, they've all openly said that they use the music as a pipeline to get people into their churches and into their theology.

That's exactly what they're doing. Yeah. And I get emails all the time from people saying that either their church had started singing this kind of music, they had transitioned to starting to accept a few songs here and there, and then it became more and more and more of these songs.

And then they were convinced this is the way to win people from outside because it's the most recognizable music.

Everybody's heard this stuff. They heard it at the Charlie Kirk Memorial Service. They'll hear it at these political things, like the 250th anniversary of the

United States that's coming up. Oh, yeah. And then there's going to be a big, there will be a lot of praise songs that'll be sung there.

It's all the pop praise, just as the synonymous person had mentioned. It's pop praise.

So people know it, so we got to sing these songs because this is what the most number of people are going to feel comfortable singing when they come into our church.

And you'll see churches that will acquiesce on that. They will start accepting it.

They will get warmer to it. It will be more and more of the songs that they sing, and it will affect and change the doctrine that you hear coming out of the pulpit as well.

Yeah. It happens every time. It's a slow fade. It doesn't happen immediately.

Yeah. But you start accepting a little bit here and there, and eventually...

And your trajectory is totally off. Exactly, right. I mean, it does demonstrate a trajectory.

And like I said, I get emails from people all the time, from those who will say, you know, I was mad at you at one point because you're telling us not to sing these songs, and I like those songs.

I like singing them in church. I like singing them when I'm in private. But then I noticed two or three years later, sure enough, doctrinal changes are happening in our church, and it began with the kinds of songs we sang.

Yeah. So that's why it's so important that you talk to your elders about this. But I wouldn't say when you go to your elders that you sit down with them and say,

Gabe said our theology is going to change if we don't get back to singing more doctrinally sound tunes.

That's not my argument. But that you raise your concerns about Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation, and have those arguments prepared.

Like listen to Justin Peters and Todd Friel talk about this on the

YouTube videos that they've done together where they've talked about these songs. And Justin Peters goes into the problems with the doctrine and the theology of Bethel Church and Elevation and so on and so forth.

Have those arguments ready. Or if you know that your pastors already have a problem with guys like Bill Johnson and Stephen Furtick, then bring that argument up the way that I presented it.

If you would not quote Bill Johnson, why are we singing their songs? Why is that okay?

And you do need to tell them too that you feel a conflict in your conscience that is preventing you from singing along with these songs.

Or even inviting people to church. Yeah, or inviting people to church. Because that's huge. Yeah. That is a big deal.

And like I said, there is a separation here. And so you do need to do something about that. Not just let it remain as it is.

Yeah. It is a problem. But I appreciate you emailing and asking this question. Let's take a moment now.

We'll pray for this person. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Sure. Yeah. And hope certainly that the Holy Spirit will be with you and upon your elders.

And recognize the need for more doctrinal soundness even in the songs that we sing.

So let's pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for the gift of music that you have given to us.

What a beautiful thing. And even when we don't know what to pray, we can go to a song and lift up praise in this way unto

God. It is such a remarkable gift. So much that you've even given us a whole book of song lyrics.

The psalms that we have. So that we have an idea of what doctrinal soundness should sound like in our music.

We can compare it with the scriptures. Take the scriptures, add it to song. And whatever songs we sing, we can test it with the scriptures and know this is pleasing unto the

Lord. May we choose songs and sing things that we know delight your heart.

And I pray for this particular situation. This person who has emailed us and expressed a real concern with the kinds of songs that her church is singing.

Lord, I pray you would be with those elders. May they be discerning and may they be receptive to this correction when she and her husband have to go to them and say, here are the concerns that we have and here is what we're raising.

May they recognize that using songs that are not doctrinally sound has created some separation, some division, even within their body.

And they will understand as shepherds their responsibility to shepherd the body well.

And that includes being discerning with the kinds of songs that we sing together as a church and as a congregation.

Lead us in right paths for your namesake. Help us to test the spirits for not every spirit comes from God and there are many false prophets that have gone out into the world.

May we know what is pleasing to God and lift those things up to you.

Not as what makes us feel good, but what we know delights the Lord.

And it's in Jesus' name that we pray. Amen. Amen. All right. This next one is from Jake. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky.

Greetings from Southern Alberta. Oh, fun. Hello up there. Your podcast is a blessing and I am a recently new listener.

All glory to God. I embraced the doctrines of grace about three years ago and I can't see scripture in any other light.

I was raised IFB, Independent Fundamentalist Baptist, and King James only.

So the transition was interesting. The area where I live is heavily populated with Mennonites of which my wife is one.

I currently am going to a Mennonite church. I was baptized in Mennonite church. So I love

Mennonites. But I understand the problems you're probably having here. So Jake goes on.

So my question is this. How do I interact with and work with and worship with brethren that see

Calvinism as evil and heresy? Thank you and keep up the amazing work.

In Christ your brother, Jake. Ouch. Yep. Yeah, that is tough. Well, I was in this environment for a long time.

Like I said, I was baptized in a Mennonite church. And I was not openly Calvinist because I didn't really know what that was.

But I did love the doctrines of grace even before I knew what they were. And I challenged my teachers on things that they said.

A lot. That did not make me very popular. Yeah. Excuse me.

So here's the result of my weak voice coming in here again. So how did

I put up with that environment? Well, it's just picking and choosing your battles. You know where to say things and where not to.

And I love those brothers and sisters. To this day, I still love those brothers and sisters. Yes. By the way, one of those churches.

So there were two churches that I was part of. There was the main Mennonite church in town. There was a Mennonite church that was out in the country.

Which today, they used to be called Emmanuel Mennonite Brethren, I think was the name of it.

No, no, no, no. I'm getting that wrong. Emmanuel Mennonite Church was the one that was in town.

The one that was out of town was, yeah, I think it was Emmanuel Mennonite Brethren. I think that was the name of it.

EMB. But anyway, so we just called them the in -town church and the country church. That's how we distinguished between the two.

But now it's called Countryside Bible Church. So anyway, that church is now fully

Calvinist. So they openly embrace and believe in the doctrines of grace. The one out of town.

Yeah, the one out of town. The one out in the country. Whereas when I was growing up, that was not the case.

So you just gave it some time and their devotion to doctrinal soundness eventually led them to that place where they're at now.

Now, obviously, becoming Calvinist, they couldn't stay within the Mennonites. Right.

So they're not Mennonite anymore. Even though a lot of the people that attend that church grew up Mennonite and are still very sympathetic to that.

There's still a lot of German heritage there. So a lovely congregation. We actually just went back and visited there last month.

Well, now it's May. It's May 1st. It is. Happy May Day, everybody. May Day. And so it was not

April, but March. March. When we were there, yeah. And Pastor Jonathan Dale, who's doing a remarkable job there.

Yes. Keep up the great work. Amen. He's going through Romans right now. I'm in Romans also, but I'm in Romans 10, and I think he's now in Chapter 2.

He was finishing up Chapter 1 when we were there. So probably on to Chapter 2 now. Anyway, so, yeah, it was just understanding where I knew where to speak and where not to, and at what time to speak and what time not to speak.

And it wasn't that I didn't talk at all. Right. I was also very young, so I tried to be respectful of my elders, not being the teenage upstart that's always kind of trying to upset everything.

There were things that I had to learn from those brothers, and they led me in those things very well.

Well, because it sounds like it might be a tighter -knit community, maybe.

Yeah, and Mennonite usually is. Yes. I recommend, like what

Gabe said, I reaffirmed that take things slow and plant seeds instead of like, hey, this is, and then you drop the bomb, you know?

Yeah. Just planting seeds of like, well, I think this passage goes along with that well, and then you let them think on it and pray on it and meditate on it, and then maybe they'll come to you and ask more questions.

Right. Asking questions about it rather than just, and when you are asking questions or when you are guiding and teaching, you're using scripture to do that.

Right. So not trying to go total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints.

There's the five doctrines of grace for you right there. So not trying to hit them over the head with tulip necessarily, but you understand what those doctrines are, and you know where scripture talks about them.

So where those scriptures pop up, whether it's in teaching at the

Sunday school class, in conversation, talking about the sermon or whatever else, when verses have come up that you know are verses that make the argument with regard to a particular doctrine in the doctrines of grace, that's where to ask the question or kind of lead the discussion in that particular doctrine to challenge the person to be thinking about this a little bit more according to what the scripture says.

Because the moment you drop one of the names of the doctrines of grace, you know what the reaction is going to be.

Yes. Immediately the walls are going to go up. Immediately it's going to be, oh, that's Calvinism. So you have to get around whatever stereotype they have in their head or their biases or whatever else.

Because, yeah, the Mennonite faith is kind of inherently Arminian. Mennonite denomination, rather, is the way to put it.

It is inherently Arminian. So you're trying to help get them to think about what scripture says, ask the questions according to what the

Bible says, and avoiding those topics by name if the name is going to trigger – well, just leave it at that.

If the name is going to trigger somebody, then avoid it. Period. And there could be, of course, that when you start talking about certain things, you may even use certain verbiage that will make a person go, oh, well, that sounds like Calvinism.

I mean, unquestionably, you're going to run into that. But you're still tiptoeing into it, not hitting them over the head with a sledgehammer.

Right. And letting them, through the process of having to answer a question, work it out in their mind what the scripture is saying about this.

It's one of the reasons why Jesus asks so many questions. Yeah. Because he's making the person that he's asking the question of work it out in their mind and have to formulate the answer according to what the

Bible says. What do the scriptures say? Have you not read? Yes. Is what Jesus would say. So anyway,

I hope that helps you out. Be patient with the people that are around you. Definitely. They're being patient with you, too.

Yes. For sure. Even though they may think that what you believe is heresy.

Take that with a grain of salt, and you understand in your mind you don't know what you're saying when you call me that.

You don't know what Calvinism is. You just have a bias in your mind.

You have some sort of caricature of what Calvinism is, and that's what you're responding to. But you don't know what the scripture says about this, or you just haven't worked out yet, made the connection between the scripture and the doctrine.

Right. And so that's what you're helping them to do by guiding them through those verses, asking questions about it, and making them think through it.

Yeah. I mean, I'm right with you. Okay, good. Yeah. I got two thumbs up from Becky on that one.

All right. And I do also agree, because he asked to work and stuff like that.

You know, just know when to read the room, I guess. Read the room.

That's good. Yeah. Know when to not talk and when to pipe up. Or even when to stop talking.

Yes. So maybe the discussion's been going for a little bit, but tensions are now starting to get high.

Yeah. Or the curtain's been pulled up. You can kind of tell that their eyes either check out or their shoulders kind of raise up a little and tense up.

Or even the voice gets a little sharper or something like that. And that's when you know to back off. You're like,

I'll just let you think on that. Right. We'll pick up this conversation at another time. No need to get blood on your theological sword.

No. We'll work it out later. This next question comes from Adrian. Hello, Pastor Gabe.

Curious on your thoughts of higher education and pastoral ministry. Currently, I have a master's degree in Christian ministry, but looking to go for a doctorate of ministry degree.

Should I choose a specialty that is strictly role -based, currently serving as an associate pastor of administration, day -to -day operations and the like, or should

I choose a specialty that is where I want to be in the future, looking to assume a lead pastor role?

Well, let me answer your question with a similar question that I asked of Dr.

Albert Mohler. Oh, awesome. And this was 11 years ago. So in April of 2015.

Oh, yeah. I remember this. You and I were in Orlando, Florida. Yeah. Albert Mohler was not a speaker at the conference that we were attending, but there was some breakout that he just happened to be at.

I ran into him in the lobby at the hotel we were staying at.

And it's the only time in my life that I've ever seen Albert Mohler in shorts.

Fair. When I ran into him in the lobby. That's it. Every other time I've ever seen him in my life, he's always in a suit.

Yes. But that one time I ran into him in the lobby and his lovely wife, he was wearing shorts. So anyway, at this breakout, he was there.

He didn't even speak a lot because he wasn't one of the main speakers. He was just kind of there on a panel. But at the end of everything,

I had the chance to go up and talk to him. And I asked him, I said, I've been a pastor for five years.

At this time, it had been five years as a pastor, three as a senior pastor. Yes. And I said, I've never been to seminary.

So do you think that you can make an argument to me for resigning as a pastor and then going and attending seminary, getting my degree, and then going back to be a pastor?

And Dr. Mohler said, no, I don't think I could make an argument convincing you to do that because what seminary is supposed to do is equip you with the tools that you need for the work that you're doing as a pastor.

So if you think that you've got those tools, if you think that you are equipped to do them, and the reason why the church hired you is because they believe that you could do it, then

I can't make an argument for you resigning your job, uprooting your family, attending seminary, doing four years or however many years of classes you would need to take, and then trying to find a place, either going back to that church or finding another church to become a part of, that's some pretty life -changing, life -altering decisions for you to make there.

And so he said, unless you feel ill -equipped somewhere, if you think that there's somewhere that you need help, then you could take a few classes here and there.

It doesn't necessarily have to be full -time seminary. But the point of seminary, again, he said to me, was to equip you for the job that you're already doing.

And if you feel equipped for that job, then you don't need seminary. So I say that in answer to your question,

Adrienne, not because you don't need to go get a doctorate. That's not my argument. But rather, you're asking, is there something, some sort of specialty that I should focus on?

Well, that depends on, do you feel like you're ill -equipped in a certain area and you want to know how to do that better?

Then maybe that's what your area of focus needs to be on. Perhaps, I don't know.

But if you just want the advanced ministry degree, then just go for the doctorate of ministry.

Just do that. Whatever is going to get you there fastest, whatever is going to best equip you for the job that you think that you will be doing in a lead pastor role, then that's where your focus needs to be.

If you think you're going to be doing a lot more counseling, then focus on counseling. If you think you're going to be doing a lot more administrative work, which you're already doing, then focus on something administrative.

Didn't he mention that the end goal was the lead pastor? Was the lead pastor role, right. So in whichever way you're looking toward, with regards to where your ministry is headed, where do you think you would be most helped?

And that's what to focus on. And maybe you don't even need to focus your entire degree in that.

There can just be a couple of classes here and there. That one and that one. Because you always need extra classes. Something like that.

Right. But great question. Yeah. And praying for you, because I hope that the

Lord will certainly open the doors that you need to have open to you, that you know which direction you should be headed with regards to the ministry that you want to pursue.

Yeah. And I praise God that he set that on your heart. Because as said in 1 Timothy 3 .1, if anybody desires the role of an overseer, he desires a noble task.

Yes. So the first thing that needs to happen is you need to want to do the job. Yes. Definitely. And that was the problem for me before I became a pastor, is

I didn't want the job. Yep. And the Lord laid it on Becky's heart.

And then suddenly. That I needed the job. Yeah. Because there was this really pretty lady that batted her eyes at me.

Me? Yeah. And said, you're going to be a great pastor someday.

And I thought, okay. Well, your eyes are pretty. And so. How could you see them?

They were rolled up in your head. I should consider that. I know. I rolled my eyes at her. That was what happened when she.

That's what I got. It was because growing up, I, you know, as I was talking a moment ago about challenging my

Sunday school teachers and everything. It's because I would do that. And I would sound smarter than my teachers that everybody was like, you know what?

Maybe you just need to become a pastor. Yeah. So I heard that all the time. And I was tired of hearing that. And now.

And I'm like, hold on, hold on. Hear me out. And I explained why. And I think that may have at least calmed your bitterness towards it.

Yeah. A little bit. And here was this cute girl that I was dating. It was telling me that I needed to be a pastor.

And I'm going. Why can't I ever get away from this? You're welcome. Oh, the

Lord was using her to get into me somehow. Well, you missed all the other hints.

Yeah. Right. And then, and then it just became that my heart was softened to be the worship leader.

So I was, I was an associate pastor with an emphasis in worship. I was leading all the music. And then, and then when that pastor stepped down after being there after I was there for two years, when he stepped down, then the question had to be, well, am

I going to step into the senior pastor role or am I going to go somewhere else to become the praise and worship leader?

Yeah. And then we prayed about that and we're sure that the Lord wanted me to remain there and, and take on the preaching.

So been doing that ever since. Yep. And praise God. He knew what he was doing better than I did. Oh, amen. Yes. So this next one, this comes from Mariah, not our daughter,

Mariah. Great name. This is a, this is an apology letter. Hello, Gabriel Hughes.

And when we understand the text, I have been a longtime listener of yours from about 2023. Oh, wow.

Your ministry was a part of the healing process for me when I was leaving

Bethel church in Redding, California. Oh, wow. Yeah. I am an avid listener of wretched radio with Todd Freel.

And I heard you on the broadcast the other day. Great show. Oh, it was a great show.

That was the one I did with, uh, with Justin and, uh, Jim Osmond, Justin Peters and Jim Osmond. Yeah. And we were, uh,

I think it aired the Monday before Easter was when that program aired. I think so.

So Mariah goes on to say, I wanted to email and apologize. I work in genealogy and history.

My primary work is with the enslaved community on Washington family plantations.

I use DNA and oral histories and any other indirect documentation that can improve parent child relationships.

Us people have about 99 .8 % DNA similarities. I work with the 0 .2

% differences that account for skin pigmentation, hair texture, eye color, genetic disorders, and more.

My job is to find the most recent common ancestor to establish connections where the paper trail ends.

DNA helped us establish a male Jefferson fathered at least six children with Sally Hemmings in 1998.

It has worked wonders in helping find ancestors and names on the plantations to clarify.

I am not a kinist. Now, before going on, in case you're unaware, kinism is the belief that Christians have a duty to, uh, prefer the members of one's kin or one's family.

Okay. So a kin is a group of persons with common ancestry. So, so like one of the most common biblical examples would be in Romans nine, where Paul talks about his kinsmen according to the flesh.

So he's talking about the Jews, the love and affection that he has for the Jewish people, even though they have rejected

Christ, he still has affection for them because they are his kin. So that, that's how we know the word kin and understand the word kin.

Kinism again is the belief that Christians have a duty to remain within their kin, their kin group.

And so that our offspring will look like us. That's the, that's the kinist approach, right?

So we are now, now you and I have, uh, the same skin color.

We're both white Caucasian, as it would be called. I'm whiter. Yes. Right. And, I've also been out in the sun.

I'm not gonna lie. I've been out in the sun working on that pulpit too. So I look a little darker, but you have native

American background as well. So even though you're very light, yeah, very light skin, you can see it in your hair.

I think the hair demonstrates. Once you told me that I was like, oh, okay.

I got, yeah, because the hair definitely has a native American quality to it. Uh, but you have a lot of German ancestry.

A lot. Yes. Mostly German. And there's Irish. Is there Irish in there? Yeah. I'm a mutt.

There's a lot, a lot of European. Yes. On my mom's side has a lot of different nationalities.

Yeah. And so for me, it's primarily Welsh though. On my mom's side, there's

German and Jew on my mom's side. Interesting. So, uh, but, but on my dad's side, it's almost entirely

Welsh. And then our first ancestors to the United States were Puritan. And one of my, it was, it was my first ancestor to the

United States helped found first Baptist church in Providence, Rhode Island, which was the first Baptist church.

Yes. In Providence. And there were six men that were involved in the founding of that church. And Jonathan Green was my first ancestor to the

U S that, that helped to start that church. Uh, but anyway, so then, then kinism would be the idea that I've got to marry somebody with it.

And it's almost always related to skin color. It very rarely has anything to do with national background.

So, so the more, more common kinist approach would be to marry a white person has to marry a white person.

Okay. You can't marry somebody of darker skin. It doesn't matter what the background or the nationality is.

It's everybody needs to match within their own skin color. And that's not the only way we understand kinism, but that's typically, that is so bizarre to me because I've always wanted to be

Tanner. Yeah. Can I marry somebody with darker skin? So my kids have darker skin.

Pigmentation. So anyway, so she said, again, she says, I am not a kinist.

I do not believe that just because I am of different ethnicity than someone else, that I am better.

I am also not against interracial marriages. The differences in DNA makes us all unique.

While the similarities show us, we were created in the image of God. I got too defensive on X when the whole thing went down a while ago with that false teacher,

Joel Webben, and I took it out on you and your ministry. No excuses for that.

I am sorry for the way that I acted on X and making those tweets slash X comments about you.

Thank you for all that you do in your ministry. And thank you for helping me in 2023, get through leaving

Bethel church. God bless Mariah. I appreciate that. And I, and to tell you the truth,

I don't remember what you said. So, so obviously no hard feelings there.

Yeah. And I looked at, she included her X handle. And so I went and looked at who this was just to kind of refresh, jog my memory.

Cause sometimes by the handle, I don't remember you, but your avatar, your picture will, will be the thing that I recognize.

I didn't have any, any hurt feelings by you or anything like that. So I appreciate the apology very much.

So it's kind of strange to think about at the beginning of the year, and I've already covered this in my blog and some other places.

I think we talked about it on the podcast, but the year started with a debate about interracial marriage.

I don't even remember that. Between Ruslan KD and God logic.

And then, and they were taking that interracial marriage is okay. Ruslan is in an interracial marriage.

In fact, God logic is, is a black man. Okay. And they were taking the position that interracial marriage is okay.

They were debating against Joel Webin. Sorry. That was some update I got on my, what was that?

Telegram telegram. You got a telegram message. Anyway, they were debating against Joel Webin and his crew.

Webin taking the view that interracial marriage is not God's ideal. Oh, that's weird.

But one of the things they never, they, I don't think they ever really got to, maybe Ruslan did make this comment to Joel when they were talking about this, but, but if it's not

God's ideal, if interracial marriage is not God's ideal for marriage, then at what point does it become sin?

Cause you would have to be arguing that at some point it's actually sinful. Yeah.

So to enter into this interracial marriage, come across this because God tells in, in the

Bible that tells them not to marry outside of their clan or whatever.

They really did not have a biblical basis for this at all. No. I mean, I could kind of understand them coming from that perspective, but for the fact that those were the only considered, you know, holy people at the time.

Yeah. That makes sense to me. But now holy people, you know, Christians are worldwide.

So I don't see how. He really took the natural law approach to this.

So natural law being that. Then no. Then we just common sense. We should be able to observe and recognize that a white person and a white person go together and a black person, a black person go together.

The only thing that needs to be considered is the fact that if you do come from different cultural backgrounds, that you were open -minded enough to accept the different cultural backgrounds and still love one another through it.

So, yeah, I mean, you can have two people. It's going to be a little more difficult to understand.

Right. I mean, you and me, we were raised differently and we still go about like, we don't really have disagreements by any means, but we have to talk through some things on how we're going to raise the children, you know, like what's okay and what's not, you know?

So, I mean, and we're, we both grew up mostly in Southwest Kansas. So both of us.

So it's. But still with different family backgrounds that you still have to negotiate and work through. Right. When you're bringing some of those backgrounds into a marriage together.

And then. Yeah. Where are we compatible? And where are we going to, where are we not going to bring our traditions into the marriage?

Right. You know, maybe there's even some things that don't need to come into the marriage. Right. But yeah, you can have two people who, and again, the whole kinism argument is almost always like 90%, 90 plus percent of the time.

It just has to do with skin color. That is so weird. You're not even really talking about a national person's background or their, their national backgrounds.

You're just looking at a person and engaging with your own eyes. That person is of this ethnicity and that person is of that ethnicity.

Right. It's just typically skin deep. That's about as far as. It's about as far as the kinism argument goes, but you can have two people that are of the same skin color.

And, and same sort of background, like you said, or same like general geographic locale that we come from.

Yeah. And still have massive differences between the two of them based on the different families that they came from.

Expectations and everything. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Just because they look similar does not mean that they are the same.

Compatible. Yeah. Or even compatible for that matter. There's always going to be some sort of difference that you need to work through or overcome, or just decide this is not going to be for us when we in our, in our two respective backgrounds coming to make one new family, we're not going to bring these things into our marriage.

Yeah. You know, so yeah, it's, there are always things that will need to be negotiated through.

Right. You could have two people with the same ethnic background, same geographical location, same, you know, same sort of generation that they come from.

They're born in the same decade experience, the same sorts of things. And yet one was upper middle class and the other was impoverished growing up.

And that's immediately two different family backgrounds. Yeah. That will have to be worked through together when you form a new family.

So, yeah, the whole, yeah, the kinism thing is really, really shallow. And anyway, it's just astonishing to me that we're having this argument in 2026.

Right. But this is what social media is doing to people. But I mean, like back to the whole differences, the, the one thing that would stand out to me the most is like in America, there's a lack of respect for authority and, and countries in such as like Asia and, you know, overseas mostly.

Oh yeah. There is such huge respect for people, elders, authority, you know, all sorts of things where like America just would have a hard time.

Right. Americans. Anyway, we'd have a difficult time understanding the, the importance of it.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember Votie Bachum talking about when he went over to Africa, that was one thing that he recognized in Africa that you don't see a lot of in the

United States. There was a lot of admiration and respect for elders where he was ministering in Zambia.

Whereas in the United States, there's not a whole lot of respect for elders. In fact, we're kind of going through a thing right now where, oh, the boomers or the millennials just messed every or Gen X rather Gen X and the boomers, they messed everything up and we're going to do it right.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So yeah, a lot of massive amount of disrespect. Yes. A lot of disrespect for previous generations.

Yeah. So anyway, but like I said, appreciate your apology. No hard feelings. God bless you in the work that you do.

Oh, amen. Yes. This is a comment here from Shelby. We'll just end with this one. Hello.

Are there any podcasts on second Peter? I read it this morning and reread it, but I need help understanding it more.

I didn't find anything in your playlist, but it is long. So maybe I missed it. Yeah. What are we, I can't remember what episode we're on here.

This is episode 2 ,595.

Ooh. Yeah. So you have over 2 ,500 episodes to wade through. I can understand why you can't find it, but Shelby, I'll tell you what

I'm going to, I know how to pull them up and access them quickly. So I'll grab all the ones that I've done on second

Peter, which was years ago now, but they're in there. Yeah. And I'll copy the links for you and respond to the email with, with that whole series through second

Peter. All right. All right. Okay. Thank you guys. Thank you everybody for listening.

God bless you. And thank you for letting me have a few days to recover my voice.

Yes. Thank you. I'll be back on the study with axe on Monday.

And then Jeremiah, I think I have one or two Jeremiah's to finish up. So I've got chapters 51 and 52 in Jeremiah.

That's all I got left in Jeremiah. Nice. And then we'll go on to lamentations. Well, let's finish here with prayer.

Yes. Heavenly father. We thank you for this time that we have together. We thank you for being able to get into your word and understand your scriptures and learn from these things.

And that we would be patient with one another in the things that we learn. We would help to encourage each other.

Just as, as the Bible says that we're supposed to be growing each other in love, holding fast to the head, who is

Christ. We read about this in Ephesians chapter four. So may it be for each of us that we're helping to grow the body in love.

We're, we're looking for those who still need to learn and raise them up. We're looking in the areas that we still need to learn and looking for those that can help guide us in those areas.

And we're patient and loving with one another as you are patient and loving toward us, help us to demonstrate the love of Christ in the body of Christ.

As we grow together, looking toward that day that we will be with the Lord forever in glory for all those who believe in him.

He who died on the cross for our sins, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven. And whoever believes in Jesus will not perish, but has everlasting life.

Forgive us our sins and lead us in paths of righteousness for your name's sake. It's in Jesus name we pray.

Amen. Amen. I said stop.

You're telling me to quit it and you're yawning. Cause you yawned first. So mean.

Not a song. Yeah. Taylor Swift. You're welcome.

What's funny about that song is, uh, there's more. The only, the only time

I had ever heard it was when my brother and his wife did a cover of it. Oh yeah. But what was funny when

I was listening to it, I was listening to Amy sing it and I'm sitting there going, this has gotta be a

Taylor Swift song because you know, she's always got the revenge songs against ex boyfriends or whatever.

There was just something about, I didn't even know that many Taylor Swift songs, but there was, there was just something about the air of that song that just made me go, this has gotta be

Taylor Swift. And I looked it up, sure enough. So I've never actually heard her version. I've only heard the cover that my, my sibling did.