April 15, 2026 Show with Dr. Keith Evans on “Developing an Awareness of the Demonic in Biblical Counseling” (Part 1)

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 15th day of April, 2026.

Many of you who watch podcasts may have become familiar with an individual named

Chad Ripperger, who is a Roman Catholic exorcist, and has become a very popular guest on some of the most widely viewed podcasts, such as Tucker Carlson's program, and the program hosted by ex -Navy

SEAL Sean Ryan, just to name a couple. Well, because of the fact that this self -professed exorcist is a

Roman Catholic and a traditionalist Roman Catholic, and I've heard him myself intermingle idolatry and necromancy into his discussions on how he believes he successfully exercises demons,

I thought it would be a very wise thing to have a theologically

Reformed individual who is knowledgeable about the demonic realm on the program, and we have such a person today named

Dr. Keith Evans. He is Associate Professor of Christian Counseling and Reformed at Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and a former

Director of the Biblical Counseling Institute and Academic Dean at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And he is going to be addressing the theme of his doctoral dissertation today, Developing an

Awareness of the Demonic in Biblical Counseling, a Conversation with William Perkins.

And we'll also be having Dr. Keith Evans provide a

Reformed analysis of the aforementioned popular Roman Catholic exorcist,

Chad Rippiger, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Dr.

Keith Evans. Thank you so much for having me. It's my honor and privilege.

Well, before we go into the subject matter at hand, as a first -time guest,

I always have my first -time guests provide for our listeners a summary of their salvation testimony, including the kind of religious atmosphere, if any, in which you were raised and the kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord rose up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you. So I would love to hear your story.

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm an only child born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and actually raised in the

PCUSA. And my family and I, we didn't realize we found ourselves in a liberal denomination.

It was just a solid local church where we actually had the senior pastor was trained at Princeton and denied the bodily resurrection of Christ, inerrancy, infallibility of Scripture.

And the associate pastor was trained at Gordon -Conwell, was a five -point Calvinist. And that church, of course, was headed toward a split.

But we just loved the preaching of the associate pastor. And I grew up from the youngest of ages, sitting under the preaching of the

Word, hearing the gospel from that associate pastor, and my parents, of course, speaking the gospel into my life.

I was born and raised in the 80s, and such was the time that, you know, you prayed the sinner's prayer,

I feel like, half a dozen times, you know, in your upbringing. So my parents wanted to make sure that I was saved.

But probably around junior high school was when I really apprehended Christ for myself, just understood

I need to be walking personally with the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, I always knew that I was a sinner in need of a

Savior, but really laid hold of my faith in junior high school. And honestly, it was shortly thereafter, in ninth grade, that I began to even discern the potential callings to ministry, just loving the

Lord and the things of the Lord. And what else would I do with my life than spend full time studying

His Word and teaching others about His Word? So that's a little bit about the Lord's sovereign grace in my life from the very youngest of ages, even into the call to ministry.

And what did the Lord use in your life that convinced you that you should enter into the field of biblical counseling, and even more focused on the demonic realm, to the point at which you actually wrote your doctoral dissertation on that subject?

Yeah, so I mentioned ninth grade, the beginning to perceive the call to ministry.

I was in a verse -by -verse, book -by -book Bible study, and I just fell in love with this idea of studying the

Scriptures. And I told my senior pastor, this was when I was in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church coming out of the

PCA USA into the EPC, and told my EPC pastor at the time, you know, I just I love this.

I want to do this for my life. And, you know, when you're a youth, you think, well, you'll only minister to youths.

So I thought, well, maybe I'll be a youth minister or something. And then I had a class senior year of high school that was taught by, well, really a heathen.

I mean, he would stand up in front of the classroom and he would mock God kind of in a Nebuchadnezzar type way.

You know, I built my life. I did this. If there is a God, let him strike me dead. I sat way in the back of the classroom just in case, you know, the

Lord took him up on that offer. But he taught psychology and he was an incredible teacher, even if he was, you know, kind of a rank heathen.

And I fell in love with the idea of caring for the individual in that class. So I went to my EPC pastor and I said,

I'd love to study the Scriptures verse by verse, book by book, but I'd love to care for the individual. You know, maybe

I could be a pastor of counseling. And he said, that's called a pastor. Why don't you go to seminary?

And, you know, then you'll have plenty of opportunity to to be ministering to individuals. And it was in seminary that I came to love the

Reformed faith and understand the Reformed faith. And that's when my reformation process began much more.

And after I was in pastoral ministry for seven years, my alma mater, where I received my master's of divinity, was knocking on the door to say, come back and replace your mentor of counseling and be the professor of counseling.

And so after seven years, I did so and began my study in my Ph .D. studies.

And I asked the seminary board at the time what I should study.

And I gave them three proposals, theology of emotions, an understanding of First Corinthians 7 and desertion, with what's going on there with biblical grounds for divorce and desertion, or a

Reformed understanding of the demonic. And the seminary board said, we're not telling you what to do, but do the demonic.

So that was what was the nudge to begin studying a Reformed understanding of the demonic at the doctoral level.

Oh, great. Well, this is a subject, and I'm wondering if you agree with me, that in the

Reformed faith, whether you're Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist, it seems to be a subject, and I'm speaking of the demonic realm, that is shied away from.

It is even to the point of being ignored. It may come up in a sermon if the text is describing the demonic realm.

But other than that, it seems that there is a fear amongst many in the

Reformed faith to delve too deeply into the study of this subject, to acknowledge the danger of it in the 21st century, and to really view things that are going on in the way that the demonic realm may be interacting in those spheres of our life.

Can you give us your own opinion on that? Yeah, absolutely. As somebody who's found himself in the

Reformed world for at least 20 years, I've found that this is a topic that people hear that I studied, and they have one of two responses.

Either kind of an undue fascination, let me tell you all of my demon stories, and let me ask you about all of my demon stories, because I have nowhere else to park this, or holding me at arm's length like, you must be odd and weird.

And I think that reflects rather a famous quote by C .S. Lewis, and I'm not going to have the exact quote in front of me, but the paraphrase is that devils would love for us to make one of two errors, that we would be overly fascinated by them or that we would functionally dismiss them altogether.

And I, at least my experience in the Reformed world, I've found that it's predominantly the second part, that the

Reformed world just kind of wants to stick their head in the sand and functionally pretend like the demonic realm isn't real.

I mean, of course we believe in the other kingdom, of course, you know, Satan is one of our great enemies, the world, the flesh and the devil, but we have such a neat and tidy view of the flesh, and hey, praise

God that we do have a robust understanding of the flesh, but we have such a neat and tidy understanding of total depravity and sin and so forth that we have no functional need for the devil.

And then any talk of the devil, at least in our Reformed sensibilities, smacks of being charismatic or Pentecostal, and we don't want any of that.

So, for instance, just this past October, I was presenting at a conference and about 3 ,000 or so folks and presenting on a

Reformed understanding of the demonic, a historic understanding of it, and multiple people came up to me and asked if it was even appropriate to talk about that.

Is it even appropriate to study it? And so I do think that that reveals kind of our predisposition against the notion.

Yes, and the interesting thing is this was not always the case until probably the 20th century, am

I correct, in the Reformed faith? Well, that's why in my doctoral studies,

I went back to the Puritans, 1500s and up, at least until the time of the writing of the great confessions that we have as far as the

Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession, that these thinkers are Reformed forefathers had a really robust understanding.

And by that, I don't mean fanciful or fantastical or wild, but biblical, theological, faithful understanding of the demonic as it arose out of the scriptures and as applied to pastoral ministry.

So I went back to these great fathers of the faith and there's a lot of propaganda, I'd say, that surrounds the

Puritans. Oh, you know, we don't want the excesses of the Puritans. Look at the witch trials in England, as well as the witch trials in the

New World as far as, you know, Salem witch trials are perhaps the most famous. We don't want that excess. So why would we go back to the

Puritans? But if you read the clergy, you read the theologians, they were faithful and biblical.

There were none of these excesses that you perhaps would associate with, you know, quote -unquote

Puritanism that isn't actually Puritanism. So, yes, we've had quite a robust heritage in the

Reformed world as far as an understanding of the demonic. Now, what did you highlight, even in the title of your doctoral dissertation, developing an awareness of the demonic in biblical counseling in conversation with William Perkins, who was a 16th century

Puritan? Why did you bring him up? Yes, so I found myself studying all of the

Puritans, and I just had way too much information to write a single dissertation on all of the

Puritans. They wrote significant tomes on the demonic, on demonology.

And so I was working with my advisor and I'm like, this is like seven, eight dissertations.

This isn't just one. He said, well, why don't you pick a representative voice? And William Perkins really stands as that representative voice.

He's perhaps one of the first, if not first, Puritans, and he's certainly the popularizer of Puritan thought, writing in the late 1500s.

And you see Puritans after him drawing down on everything that he wrote.

So he really does stand as the fountainhead of the Puritan thought on the demonic, as well as representative of Puritan thought on the demonic.

So that's why I worked with William Perkins. Everybody was quoting him, and he had his fingerprints over everybody that came after him, even if they weren't necessarily citing him by name.

And can you tell us about, in your experience as a biblical counselor and in your study of this demonic realm, how are demons and perhaps even

Satan himself manifesting themselves in our 21st century setting, even in the lives of born -again believers?

Now, I'm assuming that you would believe like every theologically reformed

Christian and every cessationist Christian that I've ever encountered that Christians cannot be demon -possessed, but there may be some kind of an oppression going on from demons.

Perhaps you could even tell us about the difference between those two and explain how you believe or why you believe that the demonic realm is rearing its ugly head, even in the lives of unfortunate souls today.

Yeah, there's a lot there to unpack. Maybe I'll start with the counseling aspect first, and then

I'll get into kind of the manifestations. But I found myself encountering a field that talks about—biblical counseling is the field

I mean—talks about counseling in light of the spiritual realms, that we are not the chief counselor, but God is, the

Holy Spirit is, and he uses us as instruments. And he's the one who brings about heart change. He's the one who uses his means that he's appointed of the word and prayer, etc.,

to bring about transformation in people's lives. So it's a discipline that really understood counseling in light of the spiritual realms, but only the good one, right?

And yet I found my professors speaking to this of, you realize we are always counseling in light of the spiritual realms, but they really wouldn't say much about the demonic, right?

Just kind of tipping their hand to it quickly and then moving on. And I found myself interacting with people inundated with lies, believing lies, having experiences where they're saying,

I don't know where these thoughts or suggestions are arising from. Are they arising from my body?

Are they arising from my sinful flesh? Could this be a fiery dart? What is a fiery dart?

What does all even mean in Ephesians 6? So I found just boots on the ground, your average believer grappling with these realities.

And I found the discipline really lacking in being able to speak to those experiences and again, speaking to those experiences from a robust theological perspective.

And then onto your question about what do believers experience? And of course, believers can't experience demon possession.

Let me unpack that a little bit. I actually shy away from using the phrase demon possession because I find that people are confused by what they mean.

And so I'll just ask the question, do we mean demon indwelling like we see with Judas, Satan entered into him?

So here's this willing vessel of the evil one and the evil one's designs and desires to crucify

Christ. Or in the case of King Saul, for instance, the Holy Spirit departs from him and this tormenting spirit kind of takes the

Holy Spirit's place, if you will. Right. So this facsimile of indwelling by the

Holy Spirit, this evil sham that the evil one is engaging in as far as demonic indwelling.

Is that what we're talking about when we say demon possession? If that's what we mean, then absolutely believers cannot experience that.

We're indwelled by the Holy Spirit. We can't be indwelled by demons. But the

Greek word in the New Testament that's used and often translated demon possessed is simply the word demonize, demonizomai in the

Greek. But it's a general term. It's a catch all term. It could be demon affliction, demon oppression.

And can that happen to believers? Yes, that can. And we see several examples in the scriptures that that's the case.

So I always want to distinguish, what do we mean? Do we mean demonic indwelling? That can't happen to believers.

Do we mean demonization? Well, certainly there's quite a range of experiences that even believers can find themselves facing.

And how would that become manifest where someone is actually convinced this is supernatural that I am witnessing or experiencing?

And since it is bringing about evil, it must be from the demonic realm.

So how would this be materializing or manifesting itself? Yeah, a number of different ways.

So we see in the scriptures, for instance, this believing father who brings his son to the

Lord Jesus in Mark 9, this boy with epileptic, what would appear to be epileptic seizures.

But that's not what the text describes and defines it as. But it's instead demonization.

And the boy is having these seizure like experiences. He's thrown into the water. He's thrown into the fire.

And Jesus agrees with the diagnosis that, yes, that's a demon that's doing so and seeking to destroy this boy.

Or another example in the scriptures, the daughter of Abraham, as Jesus refers to her in Luke 13, this believing woman that she was bent over for years and that as a result of a demon.

So that looks like physical manifestation. And yet again, the diagnosis of the scriptures is that's a demon that's causing her to have this physical malady.

Now, you see elsewhere, the New Testament writers can distinguish between physical maladies. They brought the sick and the diseased and the epileptic to Jesus and he healed them and also the demon possessed and he healed them.

Right. So the New Testament would distinguish that not all physical experiences, of course, are demonically instigated, but certainly some are, as we see, as I mentioned in Luke 13.

And then in Job chapter four, we see Elipaz having a demonically instigated dream in the night watches, this malevolent spirit who's speaking contrary to the word of the

Lord. And Elipaz is quite confused about the meaning of that in his application to Job.

But we see that the clear indicators there in Job chapter four is that this is like a demonically manifested dream in the night watches, experience in the night watches, that he's having these troubling thoughts.

And then I also mentioned Ephesians chapter six, fiery darts, these suggestions that even believers face from the other kingdom.

So that's just a smattering of the different types of—well, that's the biblical evidence that suggests these types of experiences can happen to believers.

And I've seen those things in the counseling room as well. And so this brings the conversation to the logical question that many will ask.

They will say, well, if this demonic realm is true and real, if it definitely manifests itself in the 21st century, why do none of the theologically solid denominations and churches, perhaps even especially those that are theologically reformed, have exorcists?

Should there be an office or a role of an exorcist in the 21st century in Christ's church?

People tease me on RTS's campus that I'm RTS's reformed exorcist.

They're obviously teasing me. I do not agree with that. But they say, you know, I'm the demon guy because I've studied the demonic, right?

And I do find myself yielding questions from pastors and theologians and counselors from all over the country asking me questions about the demonic because I have become known as, you know, the demon expert or something like that.

But no, I don't believe that we should have exorcists in the 21st century. I don't think that we should have exorcists after the first century, when that particular gifting ceased with the apostles.

Just like I don't believe we should have a particular office of apostle and I don't believe we should have a particular office of healer,

I also don't believe we should have a particular office of exorcist. Those were apostolic sign gifts given to the early church directly by Jesus as he gifted them to the apostles, that their apostolic sign gifts would attest to the fact that this is indeed the work of the

Holy Spirit in that transition epoch of that first century as we move from the old covenant to the new covenant and the old is passing away and the things are becoming new.

And then it gives way to the pastoral epistles. And isn't it fascinating in the pastoral epistles?

We see no instructions on how to engage in divine healing. Well, here's how you lay hands on people and you pray this particular prayer and this is how you'll heal people.

Or here's how you put power into tissues or handkerchiefs and that we heal people in those ways.

Or here's how you make your shadow fall across people and you heal them. There's no instructions like that in the pastoral epistles.

Well, so, too, there's no instruction in the pastoral epistles of how to engage in apostolic sign gift exorcisms, right?

Because that particular gifting ceased with the first century.

So, no, I don't believe that we should have exorcists today. Well, then how does one who is demon -possessed get those demons to depart from them?

And how does one even demon -oppressed be freed from that oppression?

Yeah, absolutely. So you recall, of course, the event when Jesus comes down from the

Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James and John and the rest of his disciples are trying to cast out a demon at the same time.

And they say, Lord, why were we not able to cast out this one? And it's fascinating that Jesus doesn't say, you know,

Bartholomew, if you just had greater faith or if you just had a better apostolic sign gift of exorcisms, you would have been able to handle this one.

What he says is this one does not come out but by prayer and fasting. And he points to that which is enduring.

He points to that which is the ordinary means of grace and is actually superior to the apostolic sign gifts.

Isn't that fascinating that he doesn't say, if you just had greater faith and he says, no, prayer and fasting, ordinary means.

And so how do we face these experiences of demonization or how do we face night terrors or fiery darts?

Well, the ordinary means that the Lord has given us. And isn't that exactly what the Apostle Paul teaches in Ephesians 6 after he lines out that our battle isn't with flesh and blood, but is against these rulers and principalities in the dark places?

And he says, and pray for me. And what prayers does he ask for? Not pray and bind and cast out that the gospel might go forth in Ephesus or something.

And he says, pray for me that I'd be bold in speaking the gospel. And he mentions just the ordinary prayers.

And so the same thing that Jesus points to is the same thing that the pastoral epistles point to. Now, how, if it is even known, would one prevent himself from becoming oppressed by demons, especially in this discussion, a

Christian? And is there anything that you're aware of that would bring such oppression about to begin with?

And is there anything that we are aware of through the scriptures on why someone became demon possessed to begin with?

Yes, so it's fascinating to see the scriptures speak of the notion of foothold.

And now the Charismatic Church or the Pentecostal Church is going to go in a concerning direction as far as our understanding of foothold.

So please don't, you know, mishear me in an alarming or charismatic way. I don't mean it in that sense.

I mean that we see Ephesians 4 speak of, do not let the sun go down on your anger or your wrath and do not give the devil a foothold.

And really, that's just the Greek word for place. Do not give him a place. Do not give him an opportunity. Do not give him an occasion, right?

It's not something mystical or magical. It's that even an arboring bitterness and resentment and anger that we steward in undue length of time, that we're not keeping short accounts in conflict and so forth, and we're not approaching it in a biblical way, that that's an opportunity for the devil to get a wedge in, to leverage in our lives.

Well, we see similar notions in 1 Peter 5 that we are to be sober minded and watchful because our enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

So to not be sober minded and to not be watchful is another occasion.

John Brown of Haddington, Puritan author, wrote an entire, well, it was a sermon that was turned into a book, but you can get it at the

Banner of Truth on 1 Peter 5, dealing with that particular notion of being sober minded as an occasion of the devil, that if we're using drugs and alcohol or even just being not watchful or weak minded, and he's not meaning that in a putting someone down kind of way, being weak minded, that they're stupid or something, that's not what he means at all, but that if we're not watchful and we are of a weak mind is what he's getting at, that that could be an occasion for the evil one.

And then we also see in 1 Corinthians 7 that Paul says that we are to engage in regular marital relations and to forego that by mutual agreement only for a time that the devil might not have an opportunity and tempt us because of our lack of self -control.

So we see those are three different locations in the scriptures that are speaking to the notion of giving the evil one an occasion, and they would all be areas where we're not being self -controlled, we're not being watchful, we're not being sober minded, we're giving an occasion or opportunity for the evil one.

So that's how the New Testament speaks of these things. We are going to our first commercial break, and when we come back,

I will begin asking a couple anyway of the questions that have already come in from our listeners.

But if you would like to join them with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -S -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside of the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And I can readily understand that those writing in questions during a topic like this may want to remain anonymous because you are going to be asking about some kind of personal experience with the demonic realm or perhaps the experience of a close loved one.

And you don't want to identify yourself publicly. I can obviously readily understand that.

And I will respect your wishes to remain anonymous. But if it's a general question, give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence, chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.

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Welcome back. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Keith Evans, associate professor of Christian counseling at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, and former director of the

Biblical Counseling Institute and academic dean at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

And we are addressing the theme of this doctoral dissertation, Developing an Awareness of the

Demonic in Biblical Counseling in Conversation with William Perkins, and we're also going to be addressing a reformed analysis of popular

Roman Catholic exorcist, Chad Rippiger, who has begun to appear on some of the most popular and most highly viewed television podcasts.

Before I go to any listener questions, I just wanted to ask you a couple of my own, one being, are you familiar with any of these demonic battles or experiences that have been witnessed by some of these great

Reformed men of the faith, particularly the Puritans, since you have highly studied them in this area?

But the thing that, the incident that comes immediately to mind is a well -known story, and I have no idea if it's apocryphal or if it was, if hyperbole and poetic language was being used, but when

Martin Luther says he encountered Satan and threw an inkwell at him or a bottle of ink or something, but if you could let us know about your own discoveries on that.

Yeah, sure. So I didn't study Martin Luther directly, but you can't be in the space of demonology and not encounter

Martin Luther stories about ones that are apocryphal. The one

I think that is apocryphal is actually breaking wind at the devil. There's a story that's partially accurate where he says, you know, that's all you deserve,

Satan, as he breaks wind. There was a famous woodcut of him doing that to the

Pope, Pope Leo, I guess it was. But the inkwell story,

I do believe to be accurate. I'm not a Luther scholar, but I did hear that particular story from a

Luther scholar, that that is allegedly not apocryphal. But no, so again, studying

William Perkins, the father and popularizer of Puritan thought, the reason why he was a demonologist and wrote as much as he did on the demonic is because before his conversion, he was an occultist.

And he found himself, yes, he was the town drunk.

He was known as the town drunk, and that was actually what brought him to his conversion. A woman in the town said to her son, if you don't correct your behavior,

I'm going to give you to drunken Perkins. And he overheard that, and that was what was used to bring him to saving faith, at least the beginnings of it.

But he was a known drunk and a known occultist. And so he understood the severity of the other kingdom.

And it was not a trifle. It wasn't something to be flippant about. It wasn't something to dismiss. And that's why he wrote as much as he did about the demonic.

He speaks of demonically molested buildings as well as demonically possessed individuals.

So, you know, when he's talking about demonically molested buildings, it sounds like he's describing a haunted house, you know, a modern understanding of a haunted house.

But then you read the Puritans elsewhere. And, for instance, Richard Gilpin speaks of the new world, coming to America and seeing people conveyed in flight and transported from one location to another.

Or Thomas Manton, for instance, in his book on the

Lord's Prayer, he speaks of with regard to the temptation of Christ.

He's alluding to the temptation of Christ. And he speaks of Jesus being transported to the pinnacle of the temple.

And he says, as we know, can be the case with regard to those in league with the evil one, that they are transported from place to place.

So I actually appreciate the Puritans in the sense that they just call a spade a spade, that they had an understanding of the other kingdom and that things can transpire that we don't really talk about and we don't really think about much until we find ourselves encountering the bizarre.

And then we're like, well, what do we do with that? And again, the Puritans, I find them to be faithful friends, that they just speak plainly about some of these bizarre experiences.

OK, we have Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania.

Does the Old Testament lack of a clear demonology suggest that early

Israelites viewed malevolent spirits as agents of God's judgment rather than as independent rebels?

So I teach an entire semester class on spiritual warfare and Christian counseling.

And the first half of the class, I just walk through the scriptures from start to finish to show that the vast majority of the books of the

Bible overwhelmingly, there's reference to malevolent spirits and demonic activity that we see from the very early pages.

I mean, for instance, Genesis 3, we see Satan show up tempting and seemingly inhabiting a serpent.

What do we make of the serpent and speaking and the fact that, you know, here's a spirit without body inhabiting a serpent and tempting

Adam and Eve. And then we see progressively throughout the scriptures, continued interaction and encounter with fallen angels.

I made reference to Job 4, but Job 1 and 2, crystal clear activity. And then we see really the unfolding of the book of Job is how do we make sense of a sovereign

God and yet the realities of these malevolent forces? Or as I can read chapter 3 or other passages throughout the

Old Testament, we see consistent reference to devils,

Satan. So you're basically saying that Susan is mistaken to say that there is a lack of clear demonology in the

Old Testament, unless she means by that, that it's not in detail explained thoroughly.

The encounters are mentioned, but not explained. I'm not sure what she means, unless she wants to send us another email.

Yeah, sure. So I don't entirely know what she means, and I wasn't trying to say, you know,

Susan, you were mistaken or something. I think that the demonology of the Old and New Testament is more implicit than explicit.

We're just presented with these realities as opposed to like a theological unpacking of who they are, what they are, how they function.

And we see that implicit presentation from the beginning to the end of Scripture. Okay, thank you,

Susan. And we have an email. I think this is the first time that my friend

Don Maurer, who is an elder at Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, a very wonderful congregation,

I think this is the first time Don has submitted a question. I could be wrong, but thanks,

Don. Don asks, if medication cures a demonic anomaly, is it truly demon influence?

I guess what he may mean is if it appears to cure a demonic anomaly, but if you could answer that.

Yeah, so again, as I was mentioning about the New Testament writers, having a distinction between physical origin and demonic origin, even of what we would say is a medical condition, like the boy who appears to have epilepsy or the woman who's bent over for 18 years, these things appear to us to be physical.

And yet the gospel's diagnosis is that it's demonically instigated.

And again, then there are things that are exclusively physical and not demonically instigated as people brought to Jesus, those with medical conditions and epilepsy, etc.

And so I think that in the case of counseling and pastoral shepherding, we want to recommend good medical care.

We want to recommend good doctoring. And so I'm always encouraging people, you know, have you talked to a doctor about this?

And there will be people who come to me saying they believe it is demonic and it ends up being physical.

This happened just several months ago. A pastor and a husband were bringing a wife and congregant to me saying, we believe this is a demonic situation.

And it turned out to be schizophrenia of a non -demonic origin, a medical origin.

And yet then I also have counseled folks who thought that it was a medical issue of non -epileptic seizures, for instance, and yet it was always occasioned by very obvious demonic, evil, malevolent activity as opposed to any physical, observable reality.

So I would say for the person who's able to be delivered from medicine, we'd say that's a physiological issue.

For the person who's not able to be delivered from medicine, is there the possibility for us to consider, again, the possibility that there might be another origin?

But going back to his question, I'm assuming that if someone gets well after taking a pharmaceutical approach prescribed by his doctor, if he appears to be getting well and symptoms that may have appeared to resemble demonic possession, if that disappears, that doesn't necessarily 100 percent guarantee that the demonic presence is gone.

It could even be some kind of a trick, couldn't it? If pharmaceutical means are being used and something stops.

Yeah, absolutely. And the Puritans wrote about the double feign of the evil one regularly that I mentioned

Richard Gilpin to you a moment ago, Richard Gilpin in his book, Satan's Temptations.

He speaks of Satan feigning deliverance at the site of crucifixes.

Wow. And that further enshrines in people's mind the effectiveness of crucifixes.

So is there the possibility of feigning deliverance at a medical intervention?

Certainly. Is there also the possibility of the evil one taking advantage of medical weaknesses?

As I was referring to 1 Peter 5, be sober -minded, be watchful, your enemy, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion.

Is it possible that he's taking advantage of an unsound mind because of medical condition?

That's also a possibility. So I think that there has to be much humility and open handedness as we approach the other kingdom, so much that we don't know.

And we just humbly say, you know, Father in heaven, I don't know. Give me wisdom. Help me to address this situation wisely with good medical care and good spiritual care as well.

And one more question of my own before we switch subjects to the very well -known

Roman Catholic exorcist, Chad Rippiger, who is a traditionalist

Roman Catholic priest and apparently has an official position with a certain diocese as an exorcist.

And I want you to discuss that, especially since you spent at least six hours watching this man, telling his stories about exorcising demons.

And for someone to put that much effort and preparation into my show, I want to make sure that we address what you were studying there.

But as far as a question I asked earlier, those about what could possibly bring on demonic oppression or possession, could, as some have indicated,

I've heard Pentecostals and Charismatics say this, especially those that are involved in an exorcism ministry or something, that possessions that you bring into your house, and when

I say possessions, I'm not talking about demon possessions, I'm talking about objects, your grandmother's cuckoo clock or whatever, we could go on and on with the things that you may have in your attic.

And you, hey, that looks pretty cool. I'm going to dust that off and hang it on the wall. And I've heard

Pentecostals and Charismatics say that you can actually bring a demon into your home.

In fact, I've heard, at least on one occasion, a Pentecostal say he never buys bric -a -brac or objects or furniture from a garage sale or a yard sale because he doesn't know where that object has been.

It could have been inhabited by demons. And that also, I think, dovetails into generational curses, things that could be introduced into your home because of your parents, grandparents and great grandparents and some kind of occultic practice that they may have participated in.

Yeah, I hear this kind of assertion all the time. And again, this is where I'm so thankful for our

Puritan wiser heads that have prevailed in generations past.

That they spoke of, again, the double fame of the evil one, that he would love to deceive people into responses that are not the truth, that he would lead us away from the things of the

Lord and the word of the Lord and prayer, etc. Right. That if he can enshrine in people's minds the use of runes or the use of talismans or the use of objects as though they have some mystical power and ability.

Is a rune a coin or something? I've heard that word rune, like a Norse coin. Like a type of a stone, a gem.

And as though there's magical ability to them. And I trust we hear even kind of the pagan notion of that or the

Roman Catholic notion of that. And that would be far from a Protestant and Reformed understanding of things.

We don't trust in means. We trust in the Lord who uses means and has appointed the ordinary means that he's given to us as opposed to these extra biblical means.

Well, in similar fashion or maybe the opposite side of the same coin, if the evil one can get people to think that there is power in your grandmother's cuckoo clock.

Sorry, I'm laughing. I'm sorry. That's great. You know, if the evil one can get one convinced that there's some significance in this object, then it takes our focus away from the things that our focus ought to be upon.

And again, the object of our faith and the object of our prayer and the object of our devotion, the Lord Jesus himself.

And yet, let me nuance a bit in the sense that I do believe those things that have been uniquely used in occultic activity should be conscribed to the fire.

I think that that's what we see when the gospel goes to Ephesus. They bring their occultic books and they burn them.

Now, that's not because those books have power in and of themselves, but because that which is used for idolatrous, unlawful worship should be conscribed to the fire.

G .K. Beale, in his book, We Become What We Worship, he says that's one of the reasons why even the heavenly objects, the sun and the moon and the stars will be conscribed to fire because they've been worshipped wrongly and they need to be purged and they need to be purified.

And not because there's power in these objects, these occultic books. So certainly,

I do think that we should be putting away any of those those things, but not because they have power in and of themselves and that that's part of the double feint of the evil one, that we would see these objects as magic or mystical.

And we are going to enter into my guest's

Reformed analysis of the popular Roman Catholic exorcist, Chad Ribiger, when we return from our midway break.

He is the Roman Catholic exorcist who appears to be soaring in popularity on the

Internet and appearing as a guest for many hours on the most highly watched podcasts such as Tucker Carlson's program and the podcast of former

Navy SEAL Sean Ryan. And if you have any questions specifically about Chad Ribiger, you can feel free to call us.

Also, we are still welcoming questions on the demonic realm in general.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com. Chris Arnsen at gmail dot com.

As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question is on a personal and private matter.

We will be right back. It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

He really loves hearing interviewed Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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Keith, did you say everything you wanted to say in opposition to generational curses?

Thank you for bringing that back up. I did want to say a little bit more about that.

It's an area where I find people deeply troubled about the thought of their grandparent or their parent engaging in certain sin behaviors or even occultic activities or engaging in behaviors against these individuals that I'm working with that they believe they now find themselves under a generational curse.

And the Scriptures, God promises He will not visit the sins of the

Father on the Son or visit the sins of the Son on the Father in the book of Ezekiel.

Now, of course, we see in the Scriptures that, you know, to a thousand generations of those who are faithful to Him, the

Lord cares for. And those who are unfaithful to the third and fourth generation, that's not a picture of generational curses when the

Lord is speaking there in the fourth commandment. Instead, that's a picture of the Lord's grace of breaking those who would raise us in unbelief, that the

Lord reaches in graciously and mercifully. Like, think about the line of Saul, for instance. Saul's line is cut off, and yet the

Lord preserves Jonathan, who's the faithful one, and preserves Mephibosheth, who sits at the king's table.

It's actually a picture of God's mercy and grace, not generational curses. So with regard to people who say, well, my grandmother was an occultist, and so that's why

I'm experiencing what I'm experiencing. I think that there's a bit of superstition wrapped up in that notion.

And again, what the evil one would love us to believe, that now we're enslaved, now we're bound because of something that someone did before us.

But that's not actually what the Scriptures teach. So I would simply call such a one to faith and to standing in the whole armor of God, that really is a picture of the

Lord Jesus Christ. It's his armor, for he has accomplished salvation for us, and we are clad in him.

And so I'd call such ones to such a faith -filled, again, ordinary means of grace response, as opposed to believing the superstition of,

I'm trapped because of what a family member has done in generations past. Great. I'll read one more listener question before I move on to the

Reformed analysis of Roman Catholic exorcist Chad Rippinger. We have a first -time listener,

Jared in Dry Fork, Virginia. Hi, Chris and Dr. Evans.

My name is Jared. I live in Dry Fork, Virginia, in the United States of America. This is my question.

The subject of mental illness and biblical counseling is controversial, to say the least.

In your opinion, how much of what is considered today as mental illness is actually demonic possession?

That is an excellent question, and sadly not something that I'm able to quickly resolve.

I have an entire lecture on this very topic in my semester -long course on spiritual warfare and Christian counseling.

How do we tease out the differences between what we would say is organic or physiological, and how do we tease out that which arises from the dark spiritual realms?

Well, that takes discernment. That takes wisdom. Again, I want to encourage people to doctor well and to address physical, biological issues, organic issues.

I want them to address that with ones who are particularly trained to care for bodies. As a pastor, as a counselor,

I'm not trained in that space, and so I want faithful doctors to care well for bodies.

But as far as the other kingdom, the other kingdom has clear manifestations.

The Scriptures say Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, or he came to steal, kill, and destroy.

We see the works of the evil one are very obviously opposed to Christ and the things of the

Lord. We see, again, the Puritans speaking of fiery darts, that they are sudden and alien, and they are alarming, and they are contrary to our nature.

So these are just like a quick way of saying the kingdom of darkness has its fingerprints.

The Puritans would refer regularly to a section in 2 Samuel where David is discerning, by hearing an account, he said,

I perceive that Joab's finger is in this. He didn't know that Joab had actually orchestrated the events, but he's simply seeing the hallmarks of Joab, and he says,

I perceive Joab's hand is in this. And the Puritans would appeal to that to say that we have to be discerning of the nature of the other kingdom, and it has its hallmarks as the

Scriptures reveal. So will we be able to distinguish those things? I believe that spiritual matters are discerned by spiritual people, and we are able to discern those things.

And again, I don't want to say that we don't doctor well and care for bodies well, so please don't mishear me.

Well, as I said, we are going to now enter into my guest's Reformed analysis of popular

Roman Catholic exorcist Chad Rippager. In fact, seeing

Chad Rippager on Tucker Carlson and on Sean Ryan's podcast was a very strong reason.

It provoked me to have a very program on this subject today.

Because of the fact that I believe, number one, that Reformed people do all too often shy away from even discussing this.

And number two, because of that, you're going to have people who may be experiencing things they can't explain that appear to be demonic, who are going to be drawn like a moth to the flame to people who believe in dangerous and damning heresies like Chad Rippager does.

He has made it very crystal clear, as I said before, that he's an idolater and a necromancer, contacting the dead and so on.

And I'm speaking of saint adoration. He even believes that Joan of Arc assisted in the exorcism of one demon -possessed individual.

And I think it may have even been someone he believes was Satan -possessed, Satan himself.

And Joan of Arc apparently drove out Satan from this person. So tell us about your own thoughts on Chad Rippager and why listeners should not be seduced by what he has to say.

He is quite a fascinating person. He has what appears to be an encyclopedic mind when it comes to all things connected with the demonic and the exorcism.

And as I even said to you before the show today, one of the things that immediately began to disturb me about him is that he has too much information, and you seem to agree.

But if you could, tell us your thoughts. Chris, I love your comment that people will be drawn like the moth to the fire with regard to him filling an obvious gap.

I saw this about a decade ago with Reformed pastors. They were asking questions of, what do

I do with this bizarre stuff? And at the time, they were reading Mark Driscoll.

And I'm thankful that Mark Driscoll is largely passé at this point. But Mark Driscoll's rather charismatic or even

Pentecostal flavor of addressing the demonic that Reformed pastors were running to that and saying,

I don't have any other Reformed resource on how to address this bizarre stuff.

And so they were turning to Mark Driscoll as their guide. Well, I see Father Ripperger doing the same thing, but now in our post -Christian culture, and he's going on these talk shows where there is a

Christian or Christian -esque listenership, and he's filling a gap that people are feeling.

They're experiencing, like, what do we do about the spiritual realms, and what do we do about the bizarre?

And here is a stable voice, a well -spoken voice. I mean, he's nice to listen to.

He's well -spoken. He's thoughtful, you said, in this encyclopedic mind. And he speaks with an authority, and he speaks with the authority of the

Roman Catholic Church. And so it seems as though it's a monolithic understanding that this is what the

Church believes, the capital -C Church believes, and this is what a godly, faithful response to these bizarre activities would be.

And he speaks as if there's even, like, a law of, here's how you do exorcisms, and here are the six stages of deliverance and liberation.

And so that brings a real gravitas, right? It brings an authority to a space where people are saying,

I have no idea what to do. So I really appreciate your caution at the outset. Yeah, well, when you hear him—I mean,

I know that you're not omniscient, and you can't read the hearts of men like Jesus Christ, but after six hours of watching him, is your conclusion—and

I'm not saying that it's an infallible conclusion—but is your conclusion that the likelihood is this man's just a charlatan, a well -educated charlatan who, like an actor studying his lines, is a master at answering questions?

One of the things, I don't know if they edit Tucker Carlson or Sean Ryan's podcasts, but he would have an immediate, lengthy, detailed answer to every question.

And so I don't know if they were editing pauses out of there. So, you know, you have to come to the conclusion, okay, either he's a charlatan or he, at the very least, believes that he is experiencing something real and believes he is being used of God to exorcise demons from people.

So what are your thoughts on that, when you have observed him for six hours? Yeah, absolutely.

So I teach in my classes that deception and self -deception is kind of a continuum.

Where does self -deception and deceiving begin? Like, I am self -consciously deceiving others, and it's always going to be a mixture of both.

And by saying that, I'm not, you know, seeking to sling mud at Father Rippager.

I'm simply seeking to say, of course he is deceived, and he is therefore advancing deception.

How much is he aware of that? I don't know. The Lord knows. But let's think for a moment.

He gets the gospel wrong. If he's a Roman Catholic who believes what

Rome believes, at the most base level, he gets the foundational truth of the

Scriptures wrong. And we're Protestants, and we are protesting

Rome for a reason, right? Karl Truman says that every day we wake up, we must remember that we are continuing to protest

Rome. I don't know if every single day we need to be thinking of that. But the point remains, that we're

Protestant for a reason, and we believe that the gospel rises and falls on the doctrine of justification, as the

Reformers rightly understood. And so, am I justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed by the

Scripture alone? Or is Rome's understanding of the gospel right? So, at the most foundational level, he gets the central tenet of the

Christian faith wrong. So, if we can't trust him in the most basic truth, that we would even trust little ones, children, who are able to confess the truth of the gospel, right?

The gospel is basic enough that even our children can apprehend that truth. If he can't get that right, why would we trust him?

Again, I don't mean this in a mean -spirited way in any way, but why would we trust him for the finer points, those areas where, as I was speaking before, from one of the listeners' questions, we have an implicit theology of the demonic throughout the

Scriptures. It's nowhere near as explicit as the gospel itself.

And yet, here's Father Rippager, who's stating with crystal clarity, here's the hierarchy of demons, here are the names of demons, here's how you bind and cast out, and here are the particular prayers that you pray.

And by the way, those prayers are doing the mass itself and praying the

Hail Mary and appealing to saints, that deceased saints would intercede for us on the basis of this person being exercised.

So, he's speaking with certainty about these things that, well, certainly we don't have finer certainty on some of the points that he's asserting, and then the other points are just playing outside of the pale of Christian orthodoxy as he's advancing a

Roman Catholic approach to exorcism. And there are several reasons why evangelicals might be captivated by him.

I already mentioned that one of them is because of the lack of Reformed discussion on this, leaving a void and leaving many people searching for other sources for their answers.

But I think that because Chad Rippager is a traditionalist priest, he is saying critical things about modern

Rome that I think capture the fascination and interest of even a

Protestant, because he is talking about demonic even rituals going on in the

Vatican and so forth. So, you have people who may even have an anti -Catholic bent being captivated by this priest, because he must be telling the truth, because he's even revealing dark secrets about his own religion.

And that's why his traditionalist bent in the Catholic Church, his

Latin Mass only anti -Vatican II bent, leads him to be more open to be extremely critical of modern

Rome, even though he's a priest. Am I making sense? Yeah, absolutely. And there are points where he says that he would really only trust a small handful of Roman Catholic exorcists, maybe four or five, you know, four others besides himself.

So, that gives the appearance of trustworthiness, right?

That he's willing to throw the Roman hierarchy under the bus, as it were, and say, yeah, there's all kinds of infiltration of occultic activity or pedophilia.

And he's saying it goes, you know, not all the way up to the Pope, but it goes secondary, really high up in some of the archbishops and so forth.

And that gives the appearance, again, of trustworthiness and relatability that even we as Protestants or and Tucker Carlson, as he's interviewing him, he leads with the idea, he's like,

I'm a Protestant, and it appears as though there's a common ground or a camaraderie there as the conversation unfolds, and so too with Sean Ryan, even if Sean Ryan is happy to cross himself and pray

Roman Catholic prayers, there's still this, you know, becoming this warm, inviting trustworthiness that Fr.

Rippiger is presenting. And so that gets back to the double feign of the evil one, not to overuse that notion that the

Puritans spoke of, but the evil one would love to offer the problem and then the solution, which is not the biblical solution, and to lead us away from Christ and from his truth and the ordinary means that he has gifted to us, and to lead us,

I describe it this way to my classes, the Wild West. That what

I hear Fr. Rippiger talking about is the Wild West, we're unmoored from the Scriptures, and it's just assertion about this is the case, and these are the prayers that you pray, and I learned them from an exorcist before me and the mentorship of the exorcists before me, but there's no grounding in the sufficiency of Scripture.

Of course, Roman Catholics aren't going to embrace sola scriptura as the

Protestants would. Although he does cite Scripture a lot in his conversations, though, to make it more—I'm not saying his intention is to be more deceptive, but it has the end result of being more deceptive.

That's right. And Rome would be happy for the traditions of man and Scripture to stand shoulder to shoulder together, whereas we as Protestants as Reformed Protestants, we understand sola scriptura, how we don't stand on the assertions of men.

And as Jesus says, you're teaching his commands, you're teaching truth as the commandments of men, and that's part of the deceptive lie of the

Pharisees. And I see similarly, Rome is upholding the traditions of men to the same position as the truth of God, and that should raise great cautions in us as Protestants.

He also may captivate the attention of, ironically,

Calvinists, because it's interesting how he described as God being fully in control, and he says that people can't be demon -possessed and people can't experience anything unless God gives it permission to happen.

And he even speaks of the elect that may confuse some

Reformed people. But one of the things that he immediately struck out at me on one of my first occasions listening to him—and by the way, folks, because I've listened to him,

I'm not recommending that anybody listen to him, but I wanted to prepare for this show—but when

Tucker Carlson asked him, can a person be exercised of demons against their will, and he said, no,

God will always honor the free will of man. Now, how ridiculous is that?

Because, number one, there's no biblical example of Jesus asking permission before he cast demons out, and number two, what kind of state of mind is a demoniac going to be in where they rightly give permission or refusal of such a request?

That doesn't even make sense, does it? It does not, and that's one of the things that would be attractive of Father Rippenger speaking of, well,

God honors your free will, and doesn't that appeal to the sinful hearts of man that, oh, wow, that my free will is honored even by God?

If God honored my free will, I would be in hell forever. If he did not call irresistibly and provide irresistible grace,

I would have remained dead and in the grave perpetually, and I would have been shaking my fist at God for all of eternity.

That's what honoring one's free will would look like, is that we get to shake our fist at God for all of eternity, graciously overcoming our will that would be bent against him continuously in our sin nature, is that irresistible call of the gospel.

So even if there might be an attractiveness to Calvinists, let us realize that what he's offering is not a

Calvinistic understanding of sovereignty, not a Calvinistic understanding of election, but instead, at best, a kind of an

Arminian illusory perspective or a

Roman Catholic sham of an alternative. And so again, this gets back into that the evil one would love for us to be deceived into untrue alternatives, that what has the appearance of truth is actually misleading us and walking us away from the truth of Scripture.

Now, one thing that I asked a recent guest of mine, my friend Pastor Ron Cole, who wrote—he actually edited the book

Our Ancient Foe, which is obviously a book about Satan, our ancient foe,

Satan's history, activity, and ultimate demise—I asked him a question about Matthew 7.

First, the account in Matthew 7 that I have even heard Charismatics and Pentecostals who are involved in, or at least to appreciate, modern -day exorcisms.

And when Charismatics and Pentecostals have been accused of even demonic activity, they sometimes refer to the account in Matthew 7 when the

Pharisees are accusing Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub, the ruler of demons.

And Jesus says in let's see, in verse 25 of Matthew 7,

And knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, Every kingdom divided against himself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

And if Satan is casting out Satan, he has become divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

And if by Beelzebub I cast out the demons, by whom do your sons cast them out?

Therefore they will be your judges. But if I cast out the demons by the

Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Oh, or how can anyone enter the strongman's house and carry off his property unless he first ties up the strongman, and then he will plunder his house?

But basically, they will say that it can't be the power of demons that a modern -day

Charismatic faith healer and exorcist is casting out demons. How do you respond to that?

And I'm going to go on in a minute to another verse in Matthew 7 as well. Yeah, I actually think

Jesus' teaching there is explicitly, how is it that the sons of the

Jewish people who are engaging in exorcisms, how is it that they engage in exorcisms?

It's by devils. Jesus comes and is casting out devils by the finger of God, by the

Holy Spirit. And he's saying, you know full well that I'm doing this work, not by Beelzebub.

You know full well that I'm doing this by the very finger of God, and yet you say that I am casting out by the spirit of Beelzebub.

And he's saying, every blasphemy against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

You know this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and you're claiming that it's satanic.

And so then how do your sons cast out devils? He's actually saying, your sons cast out devils by devils.

That's proof that the kingdom of darkness will not stand because it is a kingdom divided against itself.

And that's an animistic or pagan understanding of the world, that not

Jesus's understanding, but the Pharisee's understanding, right? That if I have the most powerful spirit in the area or in the land,

I need to find the most powerful spirit, and it's by that spirit that I drive out other spirits. And that will be the most powerful magician or the most powerful shaman in the area, the one who is able to drive out these other spirits.

It's by spirits that spirits are driven out, not by the work of the Holy Spirit. And so Jesus is doing something new and different.

It's the very work of the Holy Spirit. So it is by other spirits, fallen spirits, that spirits are driven out.

I mean, that's the very nature of pagan and animistic culture. And so then back to Father Rippinger, that's alarming then that what he's advocating is driving out these unclean spirits, not by the work of the

Holy Spirit. I had the opportunity to meet a local Roman Catholic exorcist.

My uncle is a Roman Catholic deacon. He said, Keith, I know you're studying the demonic.

Do you want to meet the local Roman Catholic exorcist? And I said, no, thank you. But I was thinking, I don't really want to talk to one who is embracing an animistic or pagan notion of driving out devils when

I am seeking to study the truth of God's Word, which is something altogether different.

Yes, we're going to go to my second question on Matthew 7 when we return from our final break.

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. I'm Dr.

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

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Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. So you just answered a question that I've had for a long time.

The account that we read in Matthew 7, where it's a

Judgment Day account, and this is

Matthew 7 verses 21. Not everyone who says to me,

Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter.

Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

And then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Leave me, you who practice lawlessness.

The thing that I've always found fascinating about that verse or those verses is that Jesus never says to these false

Christians, no, you didn't. When they say, didn't we prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name and perform many miracles,

Jesus doesn't say, no, you didn't. So you would likely draw the conclusion,

I think, that they were doing that. But according to what you just said, they could have been successful in doing that through the power of Satan.

Is that what you are concluding? I am.

In the sense that we see in the book of Acts with the seven sons of Sceva, these

Jewish exorcists, they're claiming the name of Christ and they're claiming the name of the apostle

Paul because they're seeing success. And so they're doing, I know that that's different than what we see here in Matthew 7.

These are people in Matthew 7 who self -consciously claiming the name of Christ, whereas the seven sons of Sceva are doing so for pretense, but they're not successful because they don't actually know

Christ. And the demon responds to the seven sons of Sceva, Jesus we know and Paul we've heard about, but who are you?

And then I love that account because the men flee from the house naked. The demon whoops up on all these seven sons and they have to flee the house naked.

So I think it's intentionally humorous as far as demons able to very easily overcome those who would be using the name of Christ for a pretense.

And so if it's effective, that takes us back to what we were talking about before in Matthew 12, that it is by Satan that the sons of the

Pharisees are casting out devils. And so if it's successful, those who don't actually know the

Lord Jesus, that's deeply troubling. What we see there in Matthew 7, that they were successful, but Jesus has never known them.

So that does beg the question, by what spirit were they casting out devils? Amen. Okay, we have another question from Susan in Newville, Pennsylvania, who wrote in earlier.

And I usually don't let our listeners have two questions in one show, but I'll let

Susan slide. At what point does a situation move beyond preaching, prayer, and pastoral care—interesting rhyme there—into something resembling what the

Roman Catholic Church would call exorcism? Or does it not move beyond prayer, and that is where it begins and ends?

That's an excellent question, and that's where I do think that William Perkins, again the father and popularizer of Puritan thought, writing in the mid -to -late 1500s, is helpful.

And again, the Puritans are drawing down on his writing and agreeing with him, and you just see it show up, even into the

American Puritans, drawing down on William Perkins' articulation of what do we do.

And he speaks of various things. And so first, we have to have allegiance to Christ.

Is the person actually in Christ? Let's start with that. And I'm not calling into question the person isn't in Christ.

I'm just saying that's foundational, right? Is the person in Christ? Secondly, then are we asking the

Lord for deliverance? Are we praying? Are we crying out to the Lord in Jesus' name? And that's not exorcistic prayers, but common prayers, like,

Lord, please deliver. Are we reading Scripture and calling the person to believe the

Scriptures and calling them to a particular response? Think about James chapter 5, for instance, with the person who finds themselves ill, and they call the elders to pray and anoint them with oil and to repent of their sins.

And in repenting, then the Lord raises them up from their sickbed. And so there's a notion of calling the person.

I'm not saying James 5 is dealing with demonic activity. I'm just saying that calling the person to a personal response in the midst of whatever the affliction may be.

So also, with regard to demonization, calling the person to a personal response in the midst of this.

And then William Perkins also points to the fact that, at times, we simply need to bear up underneath affliction and trust in the

Lord's timing. Isn't that, after all, what 1 Peter 5 says? Peter there in 1

Peter 5 says that we should expect these types of sufferings, and he has just mentioned sufferings of the evil one.

He prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking one whom he may devour, resist him. And it says, after you have suffered a little while, then the

God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

So there's a picture here of, of course, believers throughout all times and all places and all ages will experience these demonic activities.

That's what Peter is literally saying there. And after you've suffered for a little while. So perhaps we need to bear up for a time as we face certain afflictions.

That's our understanding of physical afflictions as well. Though the Lord has promised to bind up all of our wounds and heal all of our diseases, well, there are sicknesses that we have to bear up underneath, and the

Lord doesn't just immediately deliver us from. Well, so too, demonic in origin afflictions, that perhaps we have to simply wait on the

Lord in prayer and fasting and continuing in the ordinary means the Lord has entrusted to us.

And that doesn't drive us to exorcisms. Amen. By the way, I want to give a quick shout out to Pastor Brandon D.

Myers, who just emailed me during the show. He is pastor of Christ the King Reformed Baptist Church in Niles, Illinois.

And he just sent me an email saying his church wants to advertise on Iron Radio. You made my day,

Pastor Brandon. I'd like you now, Dr. Evans, to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners.

And I already know that I want you to come back for part two of this discussion at your earliest convenience if it's open on my schedule.

Well, I would love to, Chris. Thank you for the honor of part two. What I would most want people to hear is, you know, as we see bizarre activities or as we see in popular culture, someone like Father Rippinger gaining a hearing, gaining an audience, that there are spiritual realities in the dark spiritual realms and that the scriptures call us to be aware that we will face these realities—Ephesians 6, 1

Peter 5, as we've been talking—and we should not get wrapped up into those things that are luring us and leading us away from a reliance upon the scriptures.

When we face something that we're uncertain about, that shouldn't take us into the Wild West of being unmoored from the scriptures.

Where can I find an answer that should drive us back to the scriptures, that should drive us back to the all -sufficiency of the scriptures?

I must have missed something or I must not have understood something. And that's what my study did in my doctoral work, is driving me back to the scriptures.

And in fact, I had found there was much I had missed in the pages of scripture, speaking from beginning to end, from Genesis to Revelation, about this other kingdom.

And God hasn't left us blind and groping around in the dark. His Word really is sufficient for what we face.

Hallelujah. And when all is said and done, going back to the popular

Roman Catholic exorcist, Chad Rippiger, whether he is actually delivering demons, exercising demons, from possessed individuals or not, he is a false teacher, and he is an idolater and a necromancer.

He is to be avoided. We are not to listen to or follow him. And so, if he is indeed telling the truth about his exorcisms—I don't mean telling the truth about his theology, but telling the truth about his exorcisms—he's doing it by the power of Satan.

Amen. Well, it has been utterly fascinating having this conversation with you, and I look forward to your return.

And if anybody listening wants to actually read the doctoral dissertation of Dr.

Keith A. Evans, go to rts .academia .edu

forward slash Keith Evans. That's rts .academia .edu

forward slash Keith Evans. And I am really pumped up about having you come back to the program.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

I'm sorry for the fact that we ran out of time before some of your questions were asked and answered, but we will apply those to Keith's next visit to us.

I want you all to always remember for the that you are a sinner.