June 5, 2025 Show with Andrew Rappaport on “A Revival of Faithful Leadership”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fifth day of June 2025.

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I'm thrilled to have an old friend back on the program. His name is not going to be unfamiliar to most of you,

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Andrew Rapoport. He's an author, highly sought -after conference speaker, and the founder of strivingforeternity .org.

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And today, we're going to be addressing a revival of faithful leadership, which is also the theme of his message scheduled for the upcoming

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Road to Revival conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee, this

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September, where Andrew is one of eight speakers. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Andrew Rapoport.

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Thank you very much, Chris. It is always a joy to be on here. I will admit my favorite episode of being on here with you was the one where I flipped the script and I got to interview you.

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And I encourage folks to go back and listen to that one because you have a great testimony, and I think people should know more about it.

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Yeah, well, people can look that up on the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio archive. Just type in Rapoport in the search engine, and you will have it.

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Well, tell our listeners something about Striving for Eternity. Striving for Eternity is a discipleship ministry.

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So we're not doing just creation or evangelism or apologetics.

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We try to do everything to give tools to churches.

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We actually kind of more target those churches that are struggling, smaller churches that most parachurch ministries won't come in to try to help because there's no money.

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There's not many people. So we come in and do weekend seminars, give them that big conference feeling within their local church.

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We disciple podcasters through our Christian podcast community. We use books and things like that to help people to grow in their faith.

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So that's really what we're trying to do. Well, it has become quite amazing that nearly every conference that I am discovering on the

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Internet where there are Sovereign Grace believing teachers on the speaking roster, you're one of them.

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That's something to praise God about, that you are very frequently requested to offer your wisdom and knowledge of the

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Scriptures to participate in these events. Or it could just be that I don't have a speaking fee.

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Yeah, that could be it. Yeah, no, it is the way

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I do things. A lot of the speakers have set fees. I don't. But yeah, it is a privilege to be able to travel around.

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And the one we're talking about tonight, that is Jeffrey Rice is the guy who's hosting it and his church there in Tullahoma.

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It has been a conference that he's done a couple of years.

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And I'll tell you, if you haven't been to one of the conferences there, it is a neat way that he organized it.

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Now, Chris, I know you go to a lot of conferences. What Jeffrey does when he plans it is like one hour of preaching followed by one hour of fellowship.

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And you don't get a lot of that. Usually what it is, it's back to back to back to back to speaking.

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And a lot of people come to conferences for the fellowships. They, as you know,

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Chris, conferences are just a great place to get together with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and just be able to have like mindedness and seriousness of thought about the

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Scriptures. And you get that when you're at a conference with a lot of folks, but a lot of times you don't have the time because you don't want to miss any of the messages.

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And Jeffrey has organized in such a way that you get lots of fellowship time along with lots of preaching from good preachers.

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That's because he's trying to promote gluttony. No, because there's not a lot of food.

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Really, what it is, is it's you know, and I'll throw this out there for any podcasters to contact them.

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You know, one thing that I saw from the very first conference he did, as soon as the conference speaker got done, they made their way around to the different podcasts that are there and just started doing interviews.

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And there's the time for that. So it's really good. Yes. It's also good if anyone wants to have a vendor booth there, just saying, because a lot of the conferences that it's so much focused on the speaking, you never can make it out to the vendor booth.

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And so a lot of times people complain they're vendors because they're like, well, you know, no one came to the table because not all the conference speakers plan time for folks to do that.

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And so it makes it good for that as well. Well, it can be quite humbling. I've been to, as you know, many

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G3 conferences, and I hope that the failures of Josh Bice do not permanently destroy that ministry.

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But that was my favorite conference. I loved being there at the National Conference in Atlanta.

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But it can be quite humbling to have a booth right across from James White's, as I have done many times, because he will have a line about 50 yards long of people waiting to talk to him as I sit there by myself, you know, twiddling my thumbs.

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In fact, you said that you're invited to speak at so many conferences because you don't have a fee.

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I have actually the reverse issue. I get paid a lot of money by people running conferences to stay away from them.

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Maybe I should try that. You know, this and this is this is a funny thing is

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I, I was actually contacted to speak at the

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Flat Earth Society Conference. I don't know. I don't know how they got ahold of me.

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And I have said for years that I will go anywhere as long as they don't tell me what I can say.

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And so I figured if they want me there. All right. They they wanted me to submit my topic and my topic was going to be why the

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Earth has to be a sphere. I never heard back from them. How the heck did they come up with the notion that you were a flat earther?

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Could it be that I told them that? I don't know. Maybe. Well, you got

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Jeffrey Rice has quite a lineup over there in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

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You are one of eight speakers. And let me let our listeners know who the speakers are.

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is also my upcoming speaker at the

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Zion Trip and Zion Radio Free Pastors Luncheon on September 18th,

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Thursday, September 18th in Perry County, Pennsylvania. Which will be held at the

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Church of the Living Christ in Loisville. But he's also speaking, as I just said, at the

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Roadmap to Revival Conference. Keith Foskey, very good friend of mine for quite a long time.

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Jonathan Burris, who I just had on my program. Claude Ramsey, who

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I love interviewing. Such a humble and dear brother, passionate preacher.

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Michael Schultz. Jeremiah Nortier, who was a phenomenal guest on the show.

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Jeffrey Rice, who I'm hoping to have back. Am I missing anybody? No, I think

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James White is going to be speaking twice. So he starts off the conference. I think I thought he's speaking twice.

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I thought he might be ending the conference, but maybe he's speaking on Sunday. But if I remember correctly,

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I thought he was speaking twice. But yeah, it's a. Yes, he is. Yeah, so he's.

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What we have there is the idea of revival, right? So James White's going to be speaking on the revival of the authority of Scripture.

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I'll speak, as you mentioned in your opening, on the revival of faithful leadership. Keith is going to be speaking on revival begins in the house of God.

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Jonathan Burris, which is the only speaker I don't know, is going to speak on the revival through repentance.

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And you mentioned Claude. Claude is, as you said, one of the most passionate preachers.

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He's going to talk on a topic of the cost of revival speaking. Sorry, on revival, the cost on revival.

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And then that's the first day. The second day, we're going to have

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Michael Schultz, who Michael, if I think he came to the first conference that.

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Jeffrey Rice had as a fill in for somebody. And when he got done, everyone's like, who is this guy?

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Yeah, he's got he's got good. He's got quite the academic background. Oh, yes.

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Yeah, he's he's a great, a great preacher. And then you have, as you mentioned,

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Jeremiah Nortier is. Oh, I didn't mention Michael's topic is going to be revival through spirit empowered preaching.

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And then Jeremiah's topic is revival through a confessional church. And then Jeffrey Rice will talk on revival through the gospel.

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So a lot of great topics there. Yeah. By the way, you said that you didn't know

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Jonathan Burris. He has quite the glowing commendation for you when he was on my program.

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He was giving you such a lofty commendation.

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I was wondering, are you sure you're talking about Andrew? I would have the same question.

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Yeah. I didn't get a chance to listen to that one with him on yet, but. Well, it's good to be on the air. And so he'll meet me and get over that pretty quick.

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Well, since you mentioned Jeremiah Nortier, not only is he going to be my guest. On Thursday, the 19th of June to promote the same conference we're promoting today.

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But he's coming on Iron Trump and Zion Radio for two, two day debates.

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Each debate is over a two day period. And July 10th and 11th.

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He will be debating Jared K. Henry, who is a Nazarene pastor.

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And they're going to be debating on the ordination of women. And then two weeks from then, the 24th and 25th of July.

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He's debating Jared K. Henry again on can Christians be totally free from known sin on this earth?

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So that's going to be a couple of exciting debates. Yeah, he's

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I have not seen his debates yet, but he does. He's very knowledgeable on the different subjects he covers.

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So, yeah. So that will be good. He's also. For a guy. Who debates,

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I don't know how many debates he's had, but he is one of the most humble. Debaters I've ever witnessed when he's not at all a pushover, either.

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Sometimes you could be so humble that you become a doormat in a debate. But he's got the right balance there.

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Yeah, it is. Debating is something that. Is very interesting.

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So there's a few people that can do it well. Either people lose track of what the purpose is and they start attacking character, which no longer becomes a debate.

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Or what you have people is they want to have themselves heard. I had a debate.

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With a guy who didn't not understand he asked for the debate. The debate topic was secular humanism is better for society than Christianity, something like that.

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And he wanted to debate me on it. And yet, when it came time for cross -examination, he just did a monologue.

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He never asked a question. He just did a rebuttal. And it's so you do have people that try to do debates that that don't understand what debate is.

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I had a guy that debated me on Calvinism, wanted to debate. The topic he wanted was Calvinism is useless and dangerous.

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And in we had two rounds of cross -examination, the first round of cross -examination, what I did was I asked him.

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Basically, all five points of Calvinism without using the labels, just giving definitions.

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And he agreed to all five. It was funny because by the by the fifth point, people in the chat are going, checkmate, bingo, gotcha.

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Because all of the Calvinists knew exactly what I was doing. And so I told him, congratulations, you're a

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Calvinist. And then in the second round of cross, I just asked him to define total depravity, irresistible grace.

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And he had wrong definitions for all of them. And so my conclusion of the debate was, this is why you shouldn't be debating the topic of Calvinism.

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You don't even understand it. Well, that reminded me of years ago, back in 1996, when

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I arranged my very first debate with James White on the

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Marian dogmas. It was titled, Mary, sinner saved by grace or sinless queen of heaven.

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And it was really on all of the major Marian dogmas. Because he had the debate with Jerry Manitoux, who at that time, before he became a vacantist, was the darling of Catholic answers.

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But this brother came to my office for WMCA radio, which was in the church building where I worshipped.

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And he wanted posters for the debate, and he was all excited about it. And he said,

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I love James White, and I just hate his Calvinism. So I just grabbed the

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Bible, opened up to Romans 9, and I said, I'm going to read something to you, and I want you to just respond to it.

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And I read Romans 9. And he immediately, after I finished, said, you know who believes that?

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The biggest cult in the world, the Muslim religion.

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And I said, you just saw me open up a Bible and read right out of it.

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This is Romans 9. And he said, yeah, but it's what you read into it. I said,

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I didn't read anything into it. I just read it. It's amazing when you can just read

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Scripture and people are like, oh, I don't like your interpretation. I didn't interpret it. Oh, and this is another thing that occurred, and I wish

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I had the tape for this. Years ago, when I was working for WMCA radio,

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I got a call out of the blue from an elderly Orthodox Jewish retired journalist.

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And he said, I'm a student of the

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New Testament. I've read it hundreds of times, but I'm not a Christian. And I want to debate this

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Baptist pastor in Brooklyn, New York, Lefferts Park. I was wondering if I could buy a three -hour slot of time on your station to do this.

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So I called up the pastor and we worked it out. And I'm listening to this debate at home on the radio.

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And the Jewish man says, so let me get this straight. You believe that before time began, that God chose some people for salvation and others he passed by who are going to hell.

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And the Baptist pastor interrupts him and says, Ira, you got me all wrong,

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Ira. I'm not a Calvinist. He goes, you're not a what? I'm not a Calvinist.

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What you're talking about is Calvinism. Calvinism? I've never even heard that word.

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All I know is this is what your Bible, the New Testament, teaches. And I called up the radio station and I got the engineer on the phone.

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I said, please tell Ira to wait after the program is over.

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The debate is over because I want to talk to him. And I called him up and I said, Ira, you are interpreting the New Testament correctly.

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It's just a shame that you reject it. So, but that was remarkably funny.

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Yeah. I don't know how many times. So I do a program you're familiar with called Apologetics Live. Actually, I'm recording in a few hours, but it's

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Thursday nights, 8 to 10. Anyone can come in. And a lot of times people prepare to debate me and I'm not,

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I don't even know there's a debate. Because anyone can come in any time. And I don't know how many times

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I just sit there and just read Scripture. I do nothing but just read the

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Scripture and someone will be like, I don't like the way you interpreted that. Or your interpretation is wrong. I just read it.

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There's nothing I added to it. You know. And by the way, for those of our listeners who do not know you,

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Andrew is a Jewish believer and a Calvinist, which makes him more rare than a Bigfoot sighting.

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And I just got. There haven't been any Bigfoot sightings in my theory. So Jeffrey Rice would disagree.

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I got a. A message from Ted in Moundville, Alabama.

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During our conversation, and he said. Andrew Rappaport is also the only

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Calvinist without a beard these days. I, you know, Jeffrey Rice was planning this conference.

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I think it's going to be February or March. And they ended up canceling it. And and now that he's doing it again.

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But I actually was growing a beard for the conference just for that reason. And there are photos of me with a big bushy beard.

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Oh, yeah, I started it back in, I want to say, like,

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October, November. I was going to let it go until the conference. And they canceled the conference in the end of December.

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So I just shaved it off since my wife doesn't like it. You know, to the listener, let me just explain this.

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I do have a beard. I just keep it really, really short. Yeah, I do not have a beard either other than five o 'clock shadow, but.

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One of the few, as the listener said, one of the few Calvinists doesn't have one.

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I think that sometimes beards have become virtue signals for Calvinists.

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Yeah, that you're probably right there. Well, I am. I'm excited to talk about our topic today and we're going to go to our first break.

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And when we return, we're going to start talking. About a revival of faithful leadership, by the way, folks, please be patient with my voice today.

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I just started coming down last night with something called the flu or something else resembling that.

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And so it is a bit of a struggle today for me to talk properly. But I hope that you are patient with me and we're going to our first break.

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If you have a question for Andrew, submit it to Chris Orenson at gmail .com and give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

22:58

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. James White here of Alpha and Omega Ministries announcing that this

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September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

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Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.,

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I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon at Church of the

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Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

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p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme. Can we trust the

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Bible is the authentic and inerrant word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

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For more details on the Free Pastors Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

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That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

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CEO and President of Lebanon Phil Credit Union. And we're excited to be part of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio family.

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I'm Simon O'Mahoney, Pastor of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

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Originally from Cork, Ireland, the Lord in his sovereign providence has called me to shepherd this new and growing congregation here in Cumberland County.

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At TRBC, we joyfully uphold the Second London Baptist Confession, we embrace congregational church government, and we are committed to preaching the full counsel of God's Word for the edification of believers, the salvation of the lost, and the glory of our

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Triune God. We are also devoted to living out the one another commands of Scripture, loving, encouraging, and serving each other as the body of Christ.

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In our worship, we sing psalms and the great hymns of the faith, and we gather around the Lord's table every

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Sunday. We would love for you to visit and worship with us. You can find our details at trbccarlisle .org.

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That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, we'll see you soon.

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30:26

And we are now back with Andrew Rappaport, founder of Striving for Eternity Ministries, and we are discussing his theme at the upcoming

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Roadmap to Revival conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee, which is going to take place

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September 12th through the 13th. And by the way, for more details on that conference, go to the website of Covenant Reform Baptist Church in Tullahoma, Tennessee, where it's being held, crbctullahoma .org,

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crbctullahoma .org, and click on Events.

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You'll see all the details that you need to know. But Andrew today is going to be speaking on a revival of faithful leadership, and Andrew, I think it would be wise, even though we've had a number of other guests define revival, because there are so many counterfeits of revival and so much ignorance and misunderstanding of what that actually means.

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Why don't you define revival for us? Yeah. Well, first off, revival always starts with me, whoever you are, right?

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People look at a revival as something that happens outside, but really it's going to be when

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God starts doing something with individuals first. And that ends up—what many people think of when they think of a revival is the

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Great American Revival, things like this, where there's been a lot of people affected.

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Now, you look in America, we had the first Great Awakening, followed by the second, and people would refer to them as a revival.

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But you end up seeing that the first under faithful preaching was very different than the second, which was under moral preaching.

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Charles Finney, who—maybe I'll just upset some folks in the audience—I don't believe he was saved.

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Neither do I. Because he denied original sin.

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And he denied that grace was necessary for regeneration.

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Correct. Yeah, and so I find a hard time believing he could have been saved, but he was a great moral teacher.

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And I mean, to the point where, you know, some say he was the reason that they outlawed alcohol in America.

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But it was just a moral system. It wasn't the gospel that had a lasting change.

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So moralism can have a short -term effect. We're sort of seeing it in America today, where all of a sudden people have had such a reaction to the pushing of Pride Month, which you think about what it was like last

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June compared to this June. And you see moralism being preached, but you're not seeing the gospel being preached.

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We're hearing moralism from a White House, but look who he puts in charge of faith, a woman that claims to be a pastor who is a heretic.

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So she can't promote the gospel. So when we think about revival, we're not speaking of this major change across a country.

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It leads to that. But revival always starts with the individual. And it is when you have an individual and really think about the revivals of countries, it's when many people are coming to Christ, even if they either come to Christ or they were people who knew

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Christ but really were not living for him. They were, as Jude would say, saved by fire.

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They're still having the smell of fire on them. And so I think that what you end up seeing is that revival is something we have to recognize as people getting right with God and living for God.

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And it has major impacts on the rest of their life. And when you have a growing number of people come under conviction of sin and coming to repentance, it can change a nation.

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This is what Jonah faced when he went to Nineveh. Now, Jonah is probably the world's worst evangelist because if you read chapter 4, he tells you the last thing he wanted was for the

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Ninevites to get saved. That's not a very good evangelist.

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I think he went up on the hill to watch God's destruction of Nineveh. Right, that's basically just like Fred Phelps and the

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God hates fags movement. They had no interest in homosexuals repenting and coming to Christ.

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They didn't even think it was possible. Yeah, and they rejoice when you have someone die.

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Yes. And that's very much Jonah, which sounds crazy to say a prophet of God.

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But he says he said to God the reason he did not want to go to Nineveh is because he knew

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God would give mercy to them and he didn't want them having mercy. But what happened? You had

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Jonah preaching about a judgment. And they realized they were under God's judgment.

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And one by one, getting right with God, there was a national revival.

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And so if you have a revival, you know, the university that the supposed

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Christian university that they can plan a revival. You know, they they're like, oh, look, it was like the fourth or fifth time they've had a revival.

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And everyone's like going to down to that university to check it out. And and then they say,

36:38

OK, the revival is over. Well, that's not how revivals work. You can't plan it because it's not an act of human beings.

36:44

It's an act of God on human beings. And this is the first thing that people often misunderstand, because they just think revival is getting people emotionally excited or morally on a right path.

36:58

And that's not revival. Revival is going to be getting right with God and seeing a large number of people recognizing their sin, repenting of their sin, confessing their sin and bowing their knee to Jesus Christ.

37:14

And that's why I say revival starts with me, not me personally, but you as a listener. It starts with you.

37:21

Don't pray for a revival to happen around you like that's going to get you excited for the Lord.

37:26

Pray that the Lord will do a revival starting with you. And so that's what the conference is going to be about.

37:33

Now, I understand what you mean by revival starts with you. But in reality,

37:38

I know that you agree with me since you're a Calvinist. It really starts with God, doesn't it? Yeah, and that's that's what

37:45

I was saying. It's people think that they're going to be part of a revival when they're when some outside source is going to get them emotionally going.

37:55

And that's not what it is. It's going to be God working, as I said earlier, God working on people.

38:01

God is the one that's going to bring about in your life either a genuine repentance or a brokenness.

38:11

I think Roy Hennessey has a book, Calvary's Road, which he talks about revival. And the first chapter that he talks about for revival, again, he would agree that it's not a worldwide thing or a mass nation thing.

38:27

It's individual, that God works on people. And the first thing he says is a brokenness.

38:33

People have to be broken over their sin. And then the second thing is a filling of the

38:40

Holy Spirit. And we have to recognize our own sinfulness. And if people if there's

38:46

Christians, if Christians are already believers, they've they've already been regenerated. But there's plenty of them that want to see a revival, but they're looking for a revival in the church.

38:56

So the church should do something to make me feel like I'm part of a revival. And that's what I'm trying to address is that revival is when

39:03

God works on your heart. That's what I mean by that. And so now connect it with your intention to discuss a revival of faithful leadership.

39:17

Well, we have seen, unfortunately, you even referenced one earlier in the program, a failure of public leaders,

39:29

Christian speakers. I don't even have to mention names. Because many of you in the audience, you're already thinking of some of the big name people who had a major impact on your life.

39:43

Their preaching was excellent, and you loved it. And they got a lot out of it. The people whose books you would read, the people who now you you want to burn their books or throw them away because these guys have failed.

39:58

I'm not saying you need to burn the books or throw them away. I'm actually against that. I think we could take the good things we've learned from the folks.

40:07

Yeah, many of my pastor's luncheons when I had been given by major publishers free brand new books to give away to the pastors, many of those luncheons had books featured that were written by Stephen Lawson.

40:24

And obviously, I'm not going to keep doing that. But it's a shame that those books filled with wonderful content are going to be most likely ignored.

40:34

And I understand why. Yeah, and the content he had was good.

40:40

Yes, of course. But obviously, we might not want to put him in a pulpit again. But, you know, that's another example of someone that had such a major impact on so many people.

40:53

And there were people that were like, I feel let down. My faith is struggling.

40:59

And I was over Steve Lawson's sin. Like, your faith should be anchored in Christ, not a preacher.

41:07

And I really think, Chris, one of the problems, we find a lot of value in social media, right?

41:13

You and I met through social media. We do podcasting, which is a form of that medium.

41:21

And so there's a lot of benefits from it. I've gained a lot of good teaching from men using social media,

41:29

YouTube, things like this, where I get to hear people preaching that are not my pastor.

41:34

And that social media, though good, can be good, can also very easily create people that once they start getting kind of a following, it becomes contagious.

41:51

And it's the difference that I refer to as doing ministry versus platform building.

41:58

Their ministry, you're doing it for God. And it's not about how much you get paid, how many followers you get, how many likes you get, things like that.

42:10

Versus platform building, where people are going to be calculated to go, well, I'm going to and I've seen this.

42:16

You have to, Chris, where people will say things they know are provocative just to get attention.

42:24

They'll word things that are clickbait just to get you to click on something to go to their website. And then you read the article or listen to the podcast.

42:32

And it's like, you really didn't cover that. Right, right. I see that on YouTube all the time. Even it happens more and more, even from not necessarily

42:42

Christian men, but maybe you've seen that more than I have. Political issues where I typically agree with the host.

42:50

And then you see this provocative title that they put on their YouTube recording of this.

42:57

And then you go to the actual video and what they're talking about didn't even happen.

43:04

Yeah, yeah. Or they never cover the topic or they just cover it at the end, like in passing.

43:11

And it was like, wait, this was not what you said. I personally think that Christians should never do clickbait.

43:18

We should be honest. But the thing is that people do that because it helps build a platform.

43:25

It builds a following. And there's a lot of men who have fallen, I think, because they've lost sight of ministry and got into platform building.

43:38

I mean, we were joking in the beginning of the program about, you know, me not having a fee and that our ministry tries to help churches that maybe only be 20, 25 people.

43:49

I mean, the smallest group of people that I've spoken to was five.

43:56

The Chris Arntzen fan club? No, that has six.

44:07

But I had the guy that organized that conference, two other speakers pulled out because they didn't have enough registrants.

44:15

And he expected I was going to pull out. I said, why? I said, in fact, I'll pick up their topics.

44:21

And he told me, he's like, you have preached no different than you did to five people than I've seen you do to hundreds.

44:30

And I think that that's a thing that is a real issue for faithfulness in church leaders and ministers is the fact that they start to get distracted by the number of followers, the pats on the back, the attaboys, the likes, things like this, rather than saying

44:53

I have an audience of one. I proclaim God's word first and foremost to God.

45:02

He has to be pleased with what we preach. And the byproduct of that is not because of my preaching ability or anyone else's preaching ability.

45:14

It is not because of the wordsmithing that you do. It is about the

45:19

Holy Spirit doing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, which is the Holy Spirit working through the preaching, but really directing people to his word to illuminate their understanding of God's word and the application thereof.

45:35

And that's where you're going to find revival. But we have to have men that can recognize the danger of platform building and move from that and stay in ministry.

45:49

You just reminded me when you talked about that conference that had five people, you reminded me years ago, this probably would have been the 90s, a pastor that I know who's now with the

46:03

Lord for eternity, who is a very dear friend of mine. He was the pastor of a very small church.

46:16

And one day I'm visiting him right after his service had ended. I don't know.

46:22

I can't remember why I was stopping by his church after the service ended, but I'm in the lobby of the church.

46:28

Just remember a very tiny church. And one of the deacons says to me, guess who we're having perform at a church on Easter?

46:40

And I said, who? And he said, Dino. Do you remember Dino, the

46:45

Christian pianist who had an air about him like Liberace? No, never heard of him.

46:53

Really? Really. Well, he was very big in the 80s, 90s, and he was over the top in the way he dressed and all that.

47:05

But I had a laughing fit because I thought it was a joke that I couldn't stop laughing.

47:12

And then I look up as I'm bent over from laughing and I look up and I see five people there from the church just staring at me with disapproving looks because they were serious.

47:28

And I said, so you think Dino is going to perform here?

47:35

His cape won't even fit in your sanctuary. I mean, what are you talking about? And it turned out that when

47:42

Dino found out how small the church was, he said, no way,

47:48

I'm not going to perform there. And he didn't. And there was a cancellation that he had and his manager, who knew the pastor, but not well enough to know how small the church was, thought he could get

48:05

Dino's schedule filled and didn't work out. At least at that tiny church.

48:13

But anyway, what was it that specifically provoked you or might have been

48:20

Jeffrey Rice who came up with the idea of a revival of leadership? Tell us about that.

48:26

Yeah, that was that was from Jeffrey and. Yeah, I'd have to be reading into his mind why he he may have asked me on that, but it very well could be that, you know, there is a you and I'm just reading in why he might.

48:44

But, you know, I've been in ministry for a long time, been through many trials and fires and continue to serve.

48:52

But I'm also not one that is. You know, looking for the big platforms, if I was,

48:59

I would never I'd never do ministry the way I do it, because, you know, that's not how you build a big following.

49:05

But. You know, there is there's probably also a concern that he has, as I think many of us,

49:12

I think you and I, Chris, would have is just the heartbreak that we're seeing. With different men that we have great love and value for that seem to have a moral failing.

49:29

And it can be really disheartening for many people. And a lot of people just don't know how to deal with it when they they see a human, well, be human.

49:40

We all are susceptible to that. And it is something where we have to recognize that if if we're going to be faithful.

49:50

Then we first have to have a right mindset. If our mindset is focused upon.

50:00

Building something, us building something, it's going to fail. I remember a pastor that came out to New Jersey to pastor, and he literally said.

50:11

He was going to be the next John MacArthur of the East Coast. And it was because in the pastor's fellowship we had,

50:21

I mean, he was not the first and unfortunately, he was not the last to make a claim like that.

50:28

And it's funny because a bunch of us would get together and be like, yeah, we'll see how that church goes.

50:34

And sure enough, usually one after another, those guys were just trying to build something big.

50:40

And and within several years, they'd be gone. They never they never achieved what they, you know,

50:47

I remember one guy that he was he was going to have a big radio program like John MacArthur. And he was he was going to have a school.

50:54

And none of that stuff came about. And the reason is because he was trying to do it.

50:59

And a lot of people don't realize they want to be like a John MacArthur. And they don't realize that John MacArthur never was trying to be the

51:07

John MacArthur of today when he was in his 20s and 30s and 40s. He wasn't looking for that big thing.

51:14

He was looking to be faithful to his church. And yes, God bless that.

51:20

And God grew that. But notice what I just said there. God did that. What a lot of people mistakenly think,

51:26

Chris, is that when we talk about ministry, many people think it's their ministry.

51:34

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio is is not Chris Arnzen's ministry. It is God's ministry through Chris Arnzen to all of us.

51:43

And when we have that perspective, it's a major difference when we recognize this is not something we're doing.

51:49

It's something God is doing through us. He's using us. Then we're going to be grateful for any of the things that we could rejoice in, be joyful even in the things where we we fail.

52:03

You know, I was on a someone had me on a program after the issue with the news of Josh Bice.

52:11

And, you know, there had been some that I was one of the people that Josh anonymous accounts went after.

52:19

And the the thing is really this brother. Yes. Yeah. And so the the thing is, is that.

52:28

You know, this this guy asked me what I felt like vindicated in some way. I said, no, I said, you know, the reality is.

52:34

If if someone slanders me, I deserve far worse than human slander for what

52:43

I've done against God. If the worst I have to suffer is someone, you know, maligning my name.

52:52

OK, you know, but what I think keeps me. Continues to keep me on a straight and narrow path, maybe is the fact that I recognize

53:02

I deserve forward. I don't deserve to be serving God. I don't deserve to to be able to proclaim

53:11

God's word. I don't deserve to be a child of God. It is all something

53:17

God in his. Grace that I can't comprehend why he would chose to bring me to repentance.

53:26

And so we have to have that in mind. David, and we're going to go to our midway break right now.

53:35

And if anybody has a question, there already are some people who are waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

53:41

But if you'd like to get in line, our email address is Chris Arnsen at Gmail dot com. Give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

53:49

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. It's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world.

54:08

Here's Joe Riley, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show.

54:14

He really loves hearing interviewed Dr. I'm Joe Riley, a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in a tie in County Kildare, Ireland.

54:24

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

54:30

Dr. Joe Moorcroft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Moorcroft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

54:42

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

54:49

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards. And Dr.

54:54

Joan Moorcroft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

54:59

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great

55:09

Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers.

55:18

Scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the

55:24

Triune God that continues in eternity. For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit

55:30

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com

55:35

or call 678 -954 -7831. That's 678 -954 -7831.

55:44

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, an Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener from Attoy in County Kildare, Arlington, sent you.

55:55

Hello, my name is Anthony Uvino, and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York, and also the host of the

56:02

ReformRookie .com website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

56:11

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

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Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

56:28

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnson has on the show.

56:37

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news.

56:43

Subscribe to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the

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ReformRookie .com podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We're dedicated to teaching

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Christian theology from a Reformed Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers.

57:00

From Keech's Catechism and the Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the

57:06

Reform Rookie podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

57:12

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a Reformed church that holds to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, New York.

57:22

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invidio and thanks for listening. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005.

57:39

The publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

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NASB. I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylors, South Carolina.

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And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White of the

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First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia and the NASB is my

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Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmerville, Long Island, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in South Lake, Texas and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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59:25

I'm Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

59:39

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

59:48

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:00:00

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

01:00:06

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:00:30

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:00:38

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:01:02

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jansen and Christopher McDowell.

01:01:20

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:01:38

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:01:45

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:01:54

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:02:00

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:02:09

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:02:23

Hi, this is

01:02:30

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

01:02:38

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

01:02:50

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the

01:02:56

Internet where folk won't be led astray. I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.

01:03:02

This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.

01:03:08

Knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

01:03:15

I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. James White here of Alpha Omega Ministries announcing that this

01:03:58

September I'm heading out to Pennsylvania to speak at two events that my longtime friend

01:04:03

Chris Arnzen has lined up for me. On Thursday, September 18th at 11 a .m.,

01:04:09

I'm speaking to men in ministry leadership at Chris's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastor's Luncheon at Church of the

01:04:17

Living Christ in Loisville. Then on Sunday, September 21st at 1 .30

01:04:22

p .m., I'm speaking at Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle on the theme, Can We Trust the

01:04:28

Bible is the Authentic and Inerrant Word of God? I hope you can join Chris and me for both events.

01:04:34

For more details on the Free Pastor's Luncheon, visit ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:04:39

That's ironsharpensironradio .com. For more details on Trinity Reformed Baptist Church of Carlisle, visit trbccarlisle .org.

01:04:50

That's trbccarlisle .org. God willing, I'll see you in September in Pennsylvania for these exciting events.

01:05:02

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

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We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

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I'm Pastor Bill Shishko of The Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian church in Comac, Long Island.

01:06:19

I hold the Iron Sharpens Iron radio program hosted by my longtime friend and brother

01:06:25

Chris Armsen in the highest esteem, and I'm thrilled that you're listening today.

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I'm also delighted that Iron Sharpens Iron is partnering with one of my favorite resources for Reformed Christian literature for decades now,

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. Well, with the economic nightmare that we're all currently enduring, cvbbs .com,

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01:07:57

Well, before I return to Andrew Rappaport, I have a few reminders for you. If you love this show, folks, and you don't want it to go off the air, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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And we need your help more than ever, folks, because we have lost one of our major advertisers because they are likely going to be permanently closing their doors soon, and they could not afford to renew their annual advertising contract with us.

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I would love to help you launch an ad campaign because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertisers' advertising as we are in your donations.

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So send me an email to chrisarnsiron at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

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I never want anybody giving their own church where you're a member less money than you normally give your church on the

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But if you really love the show and you are financially blessed above and beyond, your ability to provide for church and family and you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and even trivial purposes, well, please share some of that money with us if you really love the show and want it to remain in existence.

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So please go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click Support, then click

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Click to Donate Now. Also, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful church, no matter where you live in the world,

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I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches.

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And I've helped many people in our audience all over the planet Earth find churches that are biblically faithful, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live.

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That may be you too. So send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. And put, I need a church in the subject line.

01:10:56

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:11:05

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence. Before we went to the break,

01:11:12

Andrew, you were not totally complete or finished saying what you wanted to say, so if you could pick up where you left off.

01:11:22

Yeah, you know, we were talking about really what it comes down to is, with ministry, it comes down to humility.

01:11:31

And there's an individual whose name I'll mention, but I'll hold up for a second, that many of you in the audience, if not all of you in this audience, will know the name.

01:11:40

He hates when I say this, but he is the humblest man I know. You're embarrassing me, Andrew. I told you not to brag about me on the air.

01:11:48

You're really making me awkward here, hearing these accolades. Well, all six of us in your fan club.

01:12:02

You know, the reality is that this person is someone who has many physical handicaps that make it hard for him to get around.

01:12:16

And yet, when you talk to him, he's well -known, and I think a big reason why is because of his humility.

01:12:24

His name is Justin Peters. Amen. Justin has cerebral palsy.

01:12:31

He has to ride around in a scooter. He can walk on crutches, but not very far.

01:12:38

And when I travel with Justin, one of the things that would kind of be my responsibility, because he needs someone to do it, is to help put his socks on, put his shoes on, take his shoes off at the end of the night.

01:12:51

It would help to unbutton his shirt. Until now, he's got these magnetic buttons, which are just really neat.

01:12:57

But the thing is that there's basic things he can't do. And for folks to understand, it takes

01:13:05

Justin three hours to shower and dress himself. And he can't fully dress, because he can't bend over to put his shoes on.

01:13:15

And Chris, I don't know how many times I have helped him put shoes on. And I'd feel bad, because I'm trying to put his socks on.

01:13:23

And he tells me, everyone has this. Like, he gets different people to help him. People are afraid they're going to hurt him.

01:13:29

And you're being so cautious. He goes, he'll be like, look, I can't feel it. Just put the shoes on. Put the socks on.

01:13:37

And I sit there, and I would always ask him, like, I would be complaining. In fact, in that exact scenario,

01:13:43

I once had a medical condition. I had to have a catheter. And I couldn't put my own socks and shoes on.

01:13:49

My wife had to do it. And I actually was sitting there and complaining that I couldn't put my own socks on, and my wife had to help me.

01:13:56

And I felt bad that she had to do that. And I realized that's exactly how, when my wife's trying to put my socks on, that's what

01:14:03

I do with Justin. And, you know, I realized I was complaining about that.

01:14:09

And it dawned on me, you know, Justin never complains. And I called him up. This is the relationship

01:14:15

I would have, right? I call him up, and I just, I said, I really don't like you. I hate you. And he was like, what?

01:14:23

And I was like, you never complain. I realized as I was complaining today about putting, my wife had to put my socks on, that I do this for you all the time.

01:14:31

You never complain. In fact, you're apologetic to me for having to do it.

01:14:37

And I'm like, I realized I would, not only would I be complaining, I do end up complaining when

01:14:42

I was in that situation. And he just, he turned to me and says, Andrew, I deserved eternity in a lake of fire.

01:14:51

What is cerebral palsy to that? And I think as many people know

01:14:57

Justin for his faithfulness, that faithfulness is because of the fact that he always keeps in mind who he is before Christ.

01:15:09

And if we're going to talk about a revival of faithful leadership, it starts with what

01:15:16

I just shared about Justin. It starts with remembering constantly that you and I deserve eternity under the infinitely holy

01:15:28

God's judgment in a lake of fire. That's what we deserve. If God gave us justice, that's justice.

01:15:36

He has given those of us who are in Christ mercy. And if Him giving us mercy, we should constantly be thankful and having gratitude, not thinking we're anything because we're not.

01:15:51

If there's anything valuable or of value in us, it is only because of what

01:15:57

Christ has done through us. We should never boast about anything other than what

01:16:02

Christ did for us. That's what faithful leadership looks like. It's not the guys with the big churches and the big platforms.

01:16:11

It's the people who are faithful. Let me give another example. For those who understand, who study missions, you can look at many missionaries whose names you don't know, many faithful pastors whose names you don't know.

01:16:25

But there's many people, Adonai Judson, many people know his name, didn't have a follower for decades.

01:16:35

He was faithfully translating God's word. You have, and now his name escapes me.

01:16:44

Shoot. There's the problem with aging, Chris. You forget things that you had prepared.

01:16:50

But there was a missionary who went to the mission field, lost his wife on the mission field and children, and he was ministering to cannibalists.

01:17:03

And he actually slept on their grave, afraid the cannibalists would dig up their bodies and eat them. Wow. And he faithfully served for,

01:17:12

I believe, it was 18 years before his first convert, someone who got thrown out of the tribe.

01:17:18

And he came to the missionary and ended up getting saved and then going back to the tribe, knowing that they might kill him and eat him.

01:17:29

They went back to the tribe and almost the entire tribe comes to Christ. But can you picture serving there, losing your family, 18 years before your first convert that you get to see?

01:17:42

Well, that would not be what many in America would see as faithful preaching.

01:17:49

It took 18 years for the first person to come to Christ. And yet that was a faithful man.

01:17:58

You know, a sermon that I preach very often is that of Isaiah 6 on what is success in ministry.

01:18:04

And I look at Isaiah 6, because many people preach that in missions conferences because they love that one line where Isaiah says, where God says, who shall

01:18:14

I send? And Isaiah says, here I am, send me. And that preaches so well, but everyone stops there and doesn't continue reading the rest of that chapter where God says, okay, what your mission is going to be is to go and preach till they stick their fingers in their ears, they cover their eyes and they go, nah, nah, nah, nah, to drown you out.

01:18:33

Right? Keep preaching until they hate the preaching of God's word. Now, was

01:18:38

Isaiah successful? Absolutely. You know why? Because he preached God's judgment and he preached until people were sick of hearing it and they came under God's judgment.

01:18:51

And yes, there were very few that listened. In fact, that's what God told him. He said that there'd be a remnant and that remnant would continue.

01:19:02

And yes, I'm part of that remnant, as you mentioned earlier. But the thing is, is that he was faithful and that's, you know, in obedience.

01:19:10

And that's what is real ministry. That's what success in ministry looks like. It doesn't look like a big following.

01:19:16

It doesn't look like a lot of books and a lot of money. I know, you know, Benny Hinn and all those guys are upset with me saying that if they ever heard it, but it's not how much money you make from ministry or anything else, but it's how faithful you are to what

01:19:31

God has called you to do. That's what faithfulness looks like. And we need more of that in leadership today.

01:19:40

Oh, I agree. In fact, I had a guest on who's actually a very dear friend of mine who

01:19:49

I've known since the 1990s. He's one of the others in the fan club for Chris Owens.

01:19:57

But I brought up something that he seemed a little uncomfortable with me saying, but he came around to agreeing with me when

01:20:07

I clarified myself. But I told him, to be perfectly honest, if I could not find a

01:20:19

Reformed Baptist church, because I am a Reformed Baptist, if I could not find a Reformed Baptist church in an area where I lived, where the pastor was a humble shepherd, a man who had a true heart of a shepherd,

01:20:39

I would prefer to seek membership in an

01:20:44

Arminian church where the pastor had that qualification, even though I disagreed with some serious points of theology.

01:20:53

And yes, isn't it ideal that we would want a man with both the heart of a shepherd and a great love for the doctrines of sovereign grace?

01:21:06

Yes, of course. But if the only Reformed Baptist churches that were in my area, or even

01:21:13

Presbyterian or other Reformed congregations, if the elders were emanating pride and were cold and didn't really have shepherd's hearts, but viewed themselves more as orators,

01:21:34

I would prefer being in an Arminian church where the man had a kind, soft heart and compassion for the flock.

01:21:44

I mean, am I making sense there? In fact, that's how I became

01:21:49

Calvinistic. So I was in a church that wouldn't say it was Arminian, but definitely would say it's not

01:21:55

Calvinistic. And as I learned the doctrines of grace, I ended up realizing that the definitions that we used in my first church were not right, but I couldn't find a good church that agreed with my independent fundamentalist

01:22:13

Baptist dispensational views. And so I ended up going, for the very reason you said,

01:22:19

I went to a Calvinistic church. They believed in what was called

01:22:25

New Covenant theology. So it wasn't dispensational. It was Calvinistic.

01:22:31

It wouldn't consider itself fundamental to the fundamentals of faith. Yes, but not the fundamentalist movement.

01:22:38

And I started going there. And by going there, I went there for that very reason,

01:22:44

Chris, because the man that was behind the pulpit was humble. And because of that,

01:22:51

I went there. And I ended up, over many years, recognizing the difference between what

01:22:57

I was taught Calvinism was and what it actually is, and realized I had been a Calvinist all along.

01:23:03

I just had wrong definitions, as many do. I often find most people that hate Calvinism, they're

01:23:08

Calvinists. They just have wrong definitions for Calvinism. Right. By the way,

01:23:14

I don't know if you are as convinced as I am that our cell phones are spying on us, but very quickly after you were complaining about your age making you forget things that you had on the tip of your tongue earlier,

01:23:30

I get an email, 12 golden facts about getting older. I mean, that was like right after you said that.

01:23:38

Well, I can confirm that, yes, your phones are being used to spy on you.

01:23:45

I can confirm that to you, Chris. Well, we have in Trenton, New Jersey, a listener named

01:23:55

Pino, just like Pinot Grigio or Pinot Noir. And yes, folks,

01:24:01

I have quit drinking, so don't draw your conclusions from me mentioning two kinds of wine. But Pino in Trenton, New Jersey says,

01:24:10

It is interesting to me that many Reformed Christians reject the notion that a pastor must have a wife and children, even though Paul's requirements for elders clearly says that as one of the qualifications.

01:24:34

They try to reinterpret that as a one woman man. But I think that a man cannot be viewed as qualified for being able to keep a church in order if he can't keep his household in order.

01:24:49

And how does he prove that if he is a single man with no children? That's a good point.

01:24:54

And it's actually a point that I have wondered about and I've never come to a fixed conclusion on it.

01:25:03

And I agree with him. Most of the men who are Reformed that I know, and that probably would even include most that are not

01:25:11

Reformed, but men who are biblically literate, biblically faithful, do not think that that is a requirement.

01:25:20

They will say that the Apostle Paul was a single man and we have no record of him having any children.

01:25:30

And of course, he was an apostle, though. He wasn't the pastor of one local church. And Jesus Christ was always single, never had any children.

01:25:41

But I think it would probably be a good idea for me to read the qualifications for pastors.

01:25:49

So those of our listening audience who perhaps may be unfamiliar with these, if they're new believers or not believers at all, in 1

01:26:01

Timothy 3, we read, the saying is trustworthy.

01:26:06

If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore, an overseer must be above reproach.

01:26:16

The husband of one wife, sober -minded, self -controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

01:26:30

He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his household.

01:26:38

How will he care for God's church? He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with the conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

01:26:52

Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace, into the snare of the devil.

01:27:02

Deacons, likewise, must be dignified, not double -tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

01:27:11

They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. Let them also be tested first, and let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.

01:27:23

Their wives, likewise, must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober -minded, faithful in all things.

01:27:31

Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own household well.

01:27:38

For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Jesus Christ.

01:27:48

And that was verse 13, where we concluded in 1

01:27:54

Timothy 3. So, what say you on your opinion on this,

01:28:02

Andrew? Yes. Well, first off, for Pino, you live about 10 minutes from me, so we should get together.

01:28:10

Contact me at strivingforattorney .org, and let's get together. If I don't answer well enough, we can sit over a cup of coffee, not a glass of wine.

01:28:20

By the way, folks, I just want to let you know that I do believe that as a Christian liberty, but I can never have alcohol again because I abused it very badly before coming to repentance over habitual drunkenness, so that's why

01:28:37

I mentioned that. So, I'm sorry about that. Andrew, go ahead. Yeah, go back and listen to the interview on First's show where I interviewed him about his testimony.

01:28:45

That's why I say it's so powerful. So, yeah, if he reaches out to me at strivingforattorney .org,

01:28:51

we could get together and talk more, but the same thing you have in Titus 1 as well where it talks about being a one -woman man.

01:28:59

Now, I'm glad that Pino made the point. He wasn't saying, as many try to say, that this is dealing with divorce and remarriage because I think that's a harder argument to make.

01:29:09

He's dealing with it as a question of singleness. Let me first encourage you, just like I think that the fruit of the

01:29:17

Spirit in Galatians 5 is one fruit, love, and the other words there are describing love,

01:29:26

I think there is one qualification for an overseer. It is above reproach, and the others are qualifying how to be above reproach.

01:29:39

Above reproach means that no one has anything they can nail to you. It's the idea that someone can't make an accusation against you.

01:29:49

Now, it doesn't mean you don't sin. It means that when you sin, you confess it, you repent, even if you do it again, but no one can hold it against you because you've done the biblical things when you've sinned.

01:30:03

And so all of these things, I think, are in light of above reproach. He is right that in the

01:30:11

Greek, the way it's worded is the husband of one wife is a one -woman man.

01:30:17

I think what that phrase is referring to is basically how he views his wife.

01:30:26

Has he got a wandering eye? Is he looking at other women? Is he dreaming about other women?

01:30:32

Obviously, you don't know what he's dreaming, but when a pretty woman walks in the room, is his head just turning toward her, right?

01:30:42

It talks about his character with how he upholds his wife.

01:30:49

So I think that that's what that phrase is referring to, but Pino did not stop there.

01:30:56

He continued on, as you had read, with the idea where it talks about basically how is he going to manage the church if he can't manage his household?

01:31:06

Now, the issue here is that I want you to consider is the argument

01:31:13

I think he's making, because I'm speaking for him, is that, well, if he's not married and with children, then we don't know how he would manage his children.

01:31:22

Therefore, we don't know how he'd manage the church. But let me ask you this. It also talks about not being a drunkard if you've never seen him with alcohol.

01:31:34

Do you know how he handles it? No, right? If you don't see him in a position where he is pugnacious or he's in an environment where he doesn't get to express those things, you're not going to see if he manages that well, if he's above reproaching those areas either.

01:31:59

And I shouldn't make a point to say that there's some people who try to make an issue that the overseer, it says, is not addicted to wine, and the deacons, the way it's phrased for them, is not being given over to much wine.

01:32:15

And some people try to say, well, a deacon can have wine, but the pastor can't. I don't think that's an argument being made there.

01:32:22

But the point being is I don't think you have to be in that situation to know if a person is above reproach.

01:32:31

The idea is the person above reproach. And you can see how someone manages his household without children.

01:32:41

How does he handle his finances? How does he handle his time? Things like that. But there will be glaring things when children are involved.

01:32:52

It's one of the things, Pino, that when I was in a church where we were calling a pastor,

01:32:58

I wanted to put this pastoral candidate in tense situations.

01:33:04

I wanted to take up every minute of his day while also giving him a sermon to prepare for with his kids there and see how he responds.

01:33:16

Because the way we hire pastors nowadays, we get someone from outside that comes in for a week, and we try to make the week easy for them.

01:33:25

How are you going to see how they handle their children? You don't. But when the children start acting up and they're worried about how they're going to look in this meeting, then it's going to come out a little bit more.

01:33:37

So I think you can have a pastor who's single because I don't think this is something where all these others are specific things.

01:33:47

They are specifically going back to the above reproach. So the real question, I think, is, is the man above reproach?

01:33:56

And these others are categories of that, of how he should be.

01:34:02

So if that doesn't answer well enough, Pino, feel free to reach out to me. We'll get together over a cup of coffee.

01:34:08

If you're Mormon, we won't have coffee. We'll have Coca -Cola. Actually, I think because of the caffeine and the

01:34:16

Coca -Cola, they're not supposed to drink that either. I may be wrong on that. No, what it is, you're right in the fact that years ago,

01:34:26

Mormons said you could not drink caffeine. Hot beverage. I think it was actually hot beverage.

01:34:31

And they changed it to hot beverage after they bought stock in Coca -Cola. And that's why

01:34:37

I said they won't drink a hot coffee, but they will drink a

01:34:42

Coca -Cola because this church owns stock in Coca -Cola. That's when that doctrine radically, miraculously, it changed.

01:34:50

They say it never changed. They just said it was confusion. Our pocketbooks affect our theology sometimes.

01:35:02

So you're saying to clarify that you do not believe it is required that a pastor be married with children.

01:35:12

No, I don't think so. I think, however, it might be better to see how he handles things.

01:35:23

I mean, because, you know, Chris, you know that as human beings, we kind of let our guard down with those we're close with, our family.

01:35:33

And if you're going to be pugnacious or lack gentleness or peaceableness, it's going to show up with your family before it shows up with others.

01:35:44

And so I think that's why Paul says, you know, look at how he handles his family, because that's going to tell you if he's above reproach, if there's issues there.

01:35:55

I mean, I know a man who outwardly, no one would question his qualifications, but yet knowing him personally with his family,

01:36:06

I wouldn't be able to recommend him for church leadership because... It's not the children, it's his wife, the way he treats his wife.

01:36:17

And so, but if he was never married, I wouldn't have known that it wouldn't come out. It might come out in other ways, but it becomes a visible way, but you have to be close to the person to see those things.

01:36:29

So I think it could be helpful, but I don't think it's a requirement. Well, also, even if it was his wife that was the problem that was abusive to her husband, and abusive to the children in some way, that would disqualify the husband because he's not ruling his house well.

01:36:49

Yeah, yeah. In that case, you have someone who isn't managing the house. And you bring up an interesting topic because people don't realize this.

01:36:56

There are abusive wives. Oh, yeah. And people don't know that. It's like somehow it's always got to be the guy's fault.

01:37:03

But no, there's many cases with abusive wives. And of course,

01:37:08

I don't think anybody who is among the minority of folks that believe it is an absolute requirement for an elder and a deacon, for that matter, because that is repeated in the deacon qualification in that passage.

01:37:28

I don't know anybody that would disqualify a widower who is no longer married because his wife passed.

01:37:37

And that's the argument that I use when people try to say that's talking about divorce and remarriage, because there's nothing that should disqualify a widower.

01:37:47

You know, in your case, your bride passed away. You haven't remarried.

01:37:53

That's not a sin. Right. In fact, and this is a question

01:37:59

I ask for people that say that deals with divorce. If someone is divorced and never remarried, because the people that say this talks about divorce, they say it's a one woman for life is what it means.

01:38:10

Well, if someone is divorced and never remarries, aren't they one woman for life?

01:38:16

So it doesn't actually address the divorce. It can only be used against remarriage and the remarriage.

01:38:23

Then in your case, if you were to remarry as a widower, what sin is that?

01:38:29

Right. So you're disqualifying widowers who get remarried, but you're not really disqualifying divorced unless they're remarried.

01:38:38

So if you're trying to say that it's an issue of divorce, I don't think that's what Paul's saying. Besides, in Paul's day,

01:38:44

I don't think divorce was very popular. Right. And we are now going to our final commercial break.

01:38:52

And if you have a question, please submit it before we run out of time. ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

01:38:59

ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence.

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01:46:35

Welcome back, and folks, don't ever forget that this program is paid for in part by the law firm of Buttafuoco &

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Associates, from Chris Arnzen of Iron Trump and Zion Radio. We're now back with Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministries.

01:47:21

We are talking about a revival of faithful leadership, and we have

01:47:27

Felicity in Dobbs Ferry, New York, who wants to know, when you mentioned earlier that a pastor must be above reproach, can he be above reproach if he repents of a serious publicly known sin, as long as some adequate time has been given to demonstrate and prove that he has truly repented?

01:47:55

That's a great question, and one that many have. So let me start with, can someone be forgiven?

01:48:03

Yes. Can they be restored to leadership? That becomes a different thing. We were in a church where a guy was struggling with drunkenness.

01:48:14

He had been covering it up. In fact, this guy, in his way of covering it up, he was drinking mouthwash, which has a very low amount of alcohol.

01:48:25

So he was drinking a ton of mouthwash, doing horrible things to his stomach to drink that much to get drunk, but no one would think of anything, someone buying mouthwash.

01:48:36

And he was pulled over on DUI, and he stepped down from the church, citing that he wanted to spend time with family, and no one in the church questioned it.

01:48:49

But when he wanted to come back, and he was requesting to be an elder again,

01:48:55

I said, no, you can't, because you weren't above reproach. You never admitted why you stepped down.

01:49:02

And so anyone that was in the courtroom when he had the DUI comes to church and goes, hey, I remember you. You were the guy that had the

01:49:08

DUI. What? Right, that's not being above reproach. So if they're covering up the sin, then

01:49:16

I say, no, they can't, until they come clean. However, the real question is, you get someone who does repent, are they permanently disqualified?

01:49:26

There's a lot of discussion on this. I don't know anything in Scripture that gives us a clear, explicit answer.

01:49:34

And so the reason you have so many different views is because people are trying to do their best of looking at the principles of Scripture to draw out of it an answer.

01:49:44

Where I personally draw the line is, I believe that if somebody used the ministry to advance the sin that disqualified him, then they are permanently disqualified because you don't want to, if the ministry was the thing they used for their sin, let me give an example.

01:50:09

Someone is counseling a woman, and in her vulnerableness of struggling with issues with her husband, he has an affair with her.

01:50:19

Well, he used the ministry, okay? Someone who uses his position as a pastor or deacon to take church finances, so he used the ministry for that reason.

01:50:35

I would say, well, that then permanently disqualifies someone. Even though they acknowledge it's wrong, you're not going to put them back in that position.

01:50:44

Now, a guy at his job embezzles the money and acknowledges it.

01:50:50

Can he, after some time, maybe, but the real issue with each of these is going to be maybe.

01:51:00

Every one of the cases is a case where you have to look into more details and do a lot more research and give a lot of time to see whether the person is going to do it again.

01:51:12

I gave the example of the guy who had the DUI. I had found out years after the event

01:51:20

I knew of, he was a deacon in a previous church. He had a drinking problem then, and they let him step down without acknowledging the drinking problem.

01:51:34

And so... You mean acknowledging it to him, you mean? Well, acknowledging it to church.

01:51:40

He knew he had the drinking problem, but he stepped down to spend time with family.

01:51:45

You see? So the church didn't know he had a drinking problem. So later, in this church, he becomes a pastor because he didn't know about the drinking problem.

01:51:59

And so he continues, right? And what does he do? He says, I want to spend time with family.

01:52:06

Now, there were many years in between these, six to nine years.

01:52:12

And sure enough, six years later, from the incident I was aware of, he had another drinking problem.

01:52:20

Now, that pastor made him confess before the congregation that he was stepping down.

01:52:27

He had made him an elder, but was telling him he had to acknowledge to the congregation he was stepping down for drunkenness.

01:52:34

And to my knowledge, he has never had the issue again. Not that,

01:52:40

I mean, it might have, but I don't know of it. But you see the difference there is that you have to get, you know, we don't want to put the person in a position of, oh, okay, he's got drunkenness.

01:52:51

Let's go to a bar to see how he handles it. No, that wouldn't be wise. But you have to be more cautious if someone used the ministry to deceive people and cover up their sin or cause the sin.

01:53:05

Yes. And even though good men, conservative men, reformed men will disagree on occasion on specific circumstances of specific individuals, whether that person can be viewed as above reproach and whether he can ever be qualified again for a leadership position, we can never use as a reason to elect someone to a position of leadership the heresy of sin is sin is sin.

01:53:50

When I have known personally someone who fell into sin as a pastor that was of a sexual nature, even though it did not involve full -blown physical consummation of it, there were people that I knew who knew this man, who loved this man, as I love this man, who were furious that he wasn't almost immediately reinstated to his position.

01:54:25

And their comments repeatedly were, well, sin is sin is sin, you know, you sin every day and everybody sins every day.

01:54:35

Well, number one, I'm not a pastor. And not every sin is equally disqualifying because it wouldn't leave somebody above, it wouldn't leave somebody not above reproach.

01:54:54

And also even the scandalous nature of a sin, how well known is it publicly known of?

01:55:05

You know, there are a number of things involving this that don't make every answer a cookie cutter answer.

01:55:15

But the whole idea of sin is sin is sin is a false understanding of the

01:55:21

Scriptures. Every single sin will send you to hell without the covering of Christ's blood.

01:55:26

That's true. Hitler will be in the same hell with those who tell white lies, little white lies, as they're called, but if they're not covered with the blood of Christ.

01:55:40

And it's interesting how people insist that we treat all sins equally when they don't do that themselves in their own lives.

01:55:48

Are we going to treat gluttony the same, to the same extent as a pedophile?

01:55:57

Obviously not. And most people would recognize that as a ridiculous mindset. But the other thing is when people are eager to restore someone or to see somebody restored that has become like a hero of theirs, they have this mindset that the church needs them.

01:56:20

And that's pogwash, isn't it? God doesn't need anybody. You're on mute, brother.

01:56:29

You're on mute. So a great example of that, and I know we're coming up to the end of the show, is

01:56:38

Charles Stanley. I know that just upset some people, but Charles Stanley's church, when he got divorced, they put out a letter explaining what happened.

01:56:46

And Charles Stanley went to the people, to the deacons, and said he's disqualified. He needs to step down.

01:56:52

They convinced him to stay on. They said that the church needed him. The Insights for Living needed him.

01:56:57

And that was a mistake because the church did not need Charles Stanley.

01:57:04

Charles Stanley needed the church. And I believe those deacons let him down. And I don't think his ministry, the ministry that God had for him, was ever the same.

01:57:15

I think his son Andy is probably the fruit of that. But yeah, I agree with you.

01:57:23

And that gets it back into that faithfulness where guys start thinking like, the church needs me. God needs me.

01:57:29

God doesn't need any of us. We need him. And that's the thing. And I know you're going to close out toward the end of the show, but let me give an appeal to the listeners.

01:57:40

Okay, I'll let Chris give an appeal to attend the conference that we've been talking about. But if you can support

01:57:46

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, please do so. Chris does a lot on a very small budget.

01:57:52

And so if you can give anything, even a few dollars, it would go a long way in helping him out.

01:57:59

So if 1 ,000 people gave just $5, that would cover for one big sponsor that would give, because as he's talked about earlier, one big sponsor leaves and it suddenly becomes a crisis situation.

01:58:12

It's much better to get a lot of people giving $5 or $20. Sorry, Chris had to do it.

01:58:20

Well, I really appreciate that. And you are pretty faithful at doing that. And thank you so much for your kindness and encouragement in doing so.

01:58:30

And I also do want to repeat the website for the Covenant Reform Baptist Church of Tullahoma, Tennessee, where the

01:58:38

Roadmap to the Revival conference is being held September 12th and 13th, featuring

01:58:45

Andrew Rappaport and seven other speakers. Go to crbctullahoma .org,

01:58:56

crbctullahoma, T -U -L -L -A -H -O -M -A .org and click on events. And of course, don't forget about Andrew's own personal website for Striving for Eternity Ministries.

01:59:07

That's strivingforeternity, is it ministries .org or just strivingforeternity .org?

01:59:13

Just strivingforeternity .org. But if people are, you know, that's too much to type, we have cheat codes like you can do just sfe .bible.

01:59:24

So there's another way you can get there quicker. Great, well, it was a joy having you on the program, brother.

01:59:31

I look forward to seeing you again face to face. I hope that is sooner rather than later.

01:59:37

And I want everybody listening to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater