Building Through Discipleship (Tamil) — Zac Poonen

Moses, God meeting with Moses in the burning bush and God telling Moses to go and confront the most powerful empire in the world at that time, we are not surprised that Moses was afraid. How can I go and confront them?

How can I go and ask him to release all those slaves? When you look in the Bible, it was one of the most difficult ministries that God gave Moses. Go and confront the most powerful ruler in the world and tell him to release all these 2 million people who are your servants, let them go free.

Moses got no army, no nothing. All that the Lord said to him was, I will be with you, that's all. There is a proverb that says, one man with God is always a majority. The whole world can stand against that man, they will not succeed.

That is why nobody could succeed against Moses. The most powerful empire was brought to its knees. That's an amazing story. When you read that, do you find a great longing in your own heart? Lord, I want to be a man for you on this earth like Moses.

I don't want a big crowd of followers. One man with God, nobody can overpower him. Many of us who are elders of churches, we have problems because one or two people cause some rebellion. Why are we so disturbed and concerned what will happen?

I will tell you. Because you are not sure whether God is with you. If God were with you, you would not be afraid. Millions of people come against you. It makes no difference. If God were before me, who can be against me?

That's the advantage of knowing God like Moses knew him. Remember this that our position is even superior to Moses. God could not dwell inside Moses. He could only be with him. But in the new covenant, when the Holy Spirit fills us, this God who dwelt in the bush comes to dwell inside us.

He is not just with us, he is in us. So our position should be stronger and we must be bolder than Moses. So why is it not like that? I think with most believers, God is not in them and God is not with them also.

Pride as the Barrier to God's Presence

And the number one reason is their pride. I want to say to you my dear brothers and sisters, there is far more pride in us than we think. And many of you who think you are very humble, there is quite a lot of pride in you.

Because the other people in your church don't have discernment, they don't see that. But any spiritual man who has got discernment can see it. They can see it in your words, they can see it in your attitude, they can see it in your face, in your eyes.

You can't hide it. What is in the heart comes forth, not only in words, but in our face. When Cain was angry, it was seen on his face. When there is pride in the heart, you can see it in a verse. It says in Proverbs 6, here is what, verse 16, there are six things which the Lord hates, seven which are an abomination to him.

If he hated it in the Old Testament, he hates it much more under the New Covenant. Number one is haughty eyes. You say, well I thought haughtiness was in the heart. Yeah, but it is in the heart that comes out in the eyes.

Everything comes out of the heart. It comes out through the tongue. That's the next thing, a lying tongue. See how what the Lord hates, there is something in the eyes and the tongue that comes out from the heart.

So that is the main reason why God is not with people. It is very clear in God's word. We saw that God dwelt in the burning bush. How can we make sure that God will dwell in us? I tell you, if Almighty God dwells in you, the whole world can be against you, you will win.

Why is it we are afraid? One person says something against us, we are disturbed. Somebody threatens us and we are disturbed. Some brother or sister in the church causes some confusion, we are disturbed.

Because God is not in us. If God is there, there will be no disturbance. It is impossible. See Jesus could sleep even when there was a storm in the lake. When he woke up, he didn't get into a panic because there was a storm.

Because God was in him. It is the whole secret of the Christian life. Christ in you. Almighty God coming inside you. That inside this body, God Almighty lives. But I don't think it is true with many believers.

The Contrite Spirit and the New Covenant Church

There is only one reason. Let's read Isaiah 57. We read Isaiah 57. God says, there are two places where I dwell. Verse 15. The high and lofty one who lives forever, whose name is holy says, number one, I dwell in the high and holy place.

That's in heaven. That's where he dwells. But he says, I also dwell in another place. With the contrite and lowly of spirit. There are only two places God dwells. In heaven and with a contrite, lowly, humble man or woman.

You can imagine that you are humble and broken. But if God doesn't think so, it's no use. When I read a verse like that, I say, Lord, I want with all my heart to be like that. Because if you will dwell inside me, I am absolutely unconquerable.

Nobody can conquer me. I believe that no demon will be able to stand before me. The devil will run in fear when he sees me. Because God dwells inside. And seven billion people in the world can stand against me.

It makes no difference. I am not afraid. It won't make any difference. Why don't we have that confidence? Because we are not sure God is dwelling inside us. But yet that is the biggest privilege of the new covenant.

You know in so many places people come and say, we want to build a new covenant church. We want to be part of CFC. We want to be a new covenant church. What is a new covenant church? It's a group of people in all of whom God is dwelling.

In all of them God is dwelling. Outside all their hearts. You get two people like that or three people like that. And God is inside them. They are all of lowly and contrite spirit. That is a new covenant church.

You get two or three thousand people who can sing well and preach great sermons. That is not a new covenant church. Remember in the bible you always see, it's always a minority of people with whom God was.

In the bible you say in the party, it's always a minority of people with whom God was. Enoch was alone. Noah and his family were eight people. In the whole world eight people. But God was with that small church.

The same thing in Abraham's time. One man. God was with him. And with many of the times the prophets. God was with the prophets and all of the nation of Israel was going astray. You see that throughout the old testament.

Examples of God's Presence in Joseph and Moses

You see Joseph. So many times it says about him, the Lord was with Joseph. They threw him into a pit, the Lord was there. They sold him to Potiphar's house, the Lord was with Joseph. You read that in Genesis 39.

And they accused him falsely and put him in jail, the Lord was with Joseph in the jail. And they took him out of the jail and put him on the throne, the Lord was with Joseph on the throne. What a wonderful way to live.

Lord they put me in jail and you are with me there. They put me on the throne and you are with me there. They put me into a pit and the Lord is with me there in the pit. I say Lord I want to live like that.

And in Exodus you read about Moses like that. The Lord was with Moses. Once he went away from the people for just one month to the top of a mountain. Just 40 days. The whole 2 million people started worshipping idols.

Why? Because one man went away. You see the power of one man when God is with him. When he was there, nobody dared to worship an idol. The moment he went away, even his co-elder Aaron was useless. He himself made that golden cow.

Because he was afraid of the people. That's the problem when God is not with you. Aaron was older than Moses. Even Miriam, older sister, all of them worshipped idols. As soon as that one man came down, everything changed.

They destroyed the idols. You know brothers the secret of serving God is that God must be in you. And for that all you need is, you don't have to be clever, you need to have a humble contrite spirit. God uses some illiterate people like Peter, a fisherman.

And then sometimes some people who are a little illiterate think that God will use only illiterate people. He will not use all these clever people and all. God is not with them. No, they think God will use only the poor people, not the educated people.

See Peter, John, Andrew, all illiterate fishermen. But then God used Paul also. Paul was one of the most educated people in his time. If he were living today, he could have been a first class computer engineer or a businessman or anything.

Then God used him. Then God used Peter who probably never even finished 10th class. What do we learn from that? It has nothing to do with poverty or riches. Peter was a poor man, Paul was a very rich businessman's son.

God could use both. Peter is uneducated, Paul is highly educated, God could use both. We learn something from this. It has nothing to do with your salary or education or anything. It has got to do with humility.

God is in heaven and with a humble broken contrite spirit. I can tell you in Jesus' name, nothing in the world can conquer you when God is with you. You will never have any need in your life unmet if God is with you.

Affliction, Sickness, and the Curse on the Earth

You will have many problems. Oh yes. Why does God allow that? In fact when God is with you, you will have more problems than other people. If I were not serving the Lord, I don't think I would have had 10 of the problems I have.

Even after serving the Lord, if I was serving the Lord like all these compromising preachers, I would not have had half the problems I have. But the more you stand for God, the more problems you have.

Jesus who served the Lord most faithfully, he was called prince of devils. He was called a demon. By 33 and a half, they killed him. What do we learn from this? The more whole hearted you are, the more you will have enemies from religious people.

But they will not be able to conquer you. They killed Jesus but God raised him from the dead. You cannot conquer a man with whom God is. God will always raise him up. No matter how much you try to push him down, God will raise him up.

It says in Psalm 34 19, the afflictions of the righteous are many. Not few. If you are not righteous, you will have afflictions. Maybe a few. Many afflictions. What afflictions? I am not talking about sicknesses.

Sickness comes to all people whether you are righteous or not righteous. See, I want to explain something to you about sickness because a lot of people are misunderstanding on this. Most of the sicknesses in the world come because we are in a earth that is cursed by God.

That's the first thing I want to say. I think 80 of the sicknesses even that believers get is because we are living in a world that is under a curse. And it's not because there is sin in your life. It's not because you don't have faith.

It's because we are living in a world that is under the curse. That's why sickness can come to anybody. It can come to your children. Because we are living in a world under the curse. Now a lot of Pentecostal teaching doesn't believe that.

And so they bring a lot of people into bondage. There are some people who can't take medicine when you are sick. It's all tempting God. Who created those medicines on the earth? All medicines are from the vegetables and herbs and chemicals God created.

The devil did not create one of them. So if you can take vegetables and fruit, you can take those medicines also. We pray and take it. There is nothing wrong in it. But we can't say we will escape all sickness because we have faith.

You know one of the primary marks of the curse? We perspire. If you perspire, is it because of lack of faith that you perspire? Can somebody say, I have faith, I will never perspire. Rather you just stand outside in the sun for 5 minutes and show me your faith.

It's all deception. God told Adam, the earth is cursed and you will start perspiring. And there will be thorns. Thorns can poke even a believer. It's not because of lack of faith. It's because we are living in a world that is under the curse.

You can't drive out the mosquitoes from your room by faith. You try, it will not go. Mosquito coil will drive it out, but not your faith. We should not be deceived by all these false Pentecostal teachings.

Why are there mosquitoes in the house of believers? Why do they bite believers? Because we are living in a world under the curse. There is perspiration, there are thorns, there are mosquitoes. And no matter how much you pray, how much faith you have, you will still perspire.

Christ's Humanity and Sinlessness

When Jesus was working as a carpenter, do you think he perspired or not? What do you think? Tell me. On a hot summer day in Nazareth, did Jesus perspire? His shop was not air conditioned. Was he perspiring or not?

Definitely. He was like us. He had a body like ours. And he may even accidentally hammered his thumb accidentally like sometimes a carpenter. Do you think his thumb would have become a little blue? And his nail?

When he hammered it with blood. Do you believe Jesus never hammered his thumb? He was always perfect. Let me ask you, when Jesus was a baby, did he ever fall down when he was three months old? When he was trying to walk?

Or from one month he started walking? What type of Jesus do you believe in? He was exactly like us. As a human being, he learned to walk like us. Do you think he could start speaking boldly at the age of one?

Do you believe that? Or did he learn just like other children to learn to speak? Many people don't believe in a real Jesus. That's why they can't follow him. They think he was so unlike us, we can never follow him.

God opened my eyes to see he was exactly like me. The only thing that was not in him was sins. There was no sin in him. A child learning to walk and falling is not a sin. If you perspire, that's not a sin.

If you are trying to find God's will and you don't know it, that's not a sin. For one hour Jesus was struggling in Gethsemane. Father, what is your will? Shall I drink this cup or not? That was not a sin.

Are you confused about the will of God sometimes in your life? That's got nothing to do with sin. It's because we are human. So, don't condemn yourself that you don't have faith. And sometimes when you have financial difficulty, it's not a lack of faith.

It is a test to see whether you will be content with little. God has given me times when I have very little, God has given me times when I have plenty. And what is God teaching me through it? God is teaching me there must be no difference in your spiritual life when you have little or you have plenty.

You are just the same. It's not lack of faith. When I get plenty, it is not plenty of faith. No, it's got nothing to do with faith. When I get little, God is testing me. Let me see now. Will you be content with little?

Or will you always be coveting? I want this, I want that, I want the other thing. Or will you get into debt to buy things? Or will you be content with what you have? And then one day God will give me plenty.

Now let me see. Is he going to be proud? By my faith I got all this. Or will he be humble and recognize this is also a test? Let me see whether he can handle wealth also. Some people pass the poverty test but when they come to the wealth test they fail.

Most believers are close to God when they are in poverty. When they get wealthy they go away. I have seen that happen in CFC Bangalore again and again and again. Brothers who were humble and close to God when they had little and God blessed them and financially they went away from God.

It's got nothing to do with wealth or poverty. It's got nothing to do with educated or not educated. It's got only to do with one thing. God dwells with the lowly contrite spirit. And if you are like that always whether you are much or little God will be with you.

And when God is with you you may still have some sickness sometimes. That may be because God wants to draw closer to you. Many are the afflictions of the righteous. Those are the afflictions from other people.

But because of the curse on the earth we will all get afflictions. But the wonderful thing is God can use it to make us more Christ like. Paul had a thorn in the flesh, some type of sickness. But God used it to keep him humble.

Why? Because God wanted to dwell with Paul. And God said if the only way I can humble Paul is by giving him a sickness, I will give him a sickness. The only way for God to humble Peter was by making him sin.

That is the last resort. When nothing else will succeed then God even will allow a man to sin to humble him. You know God is so desirous to humble us. The best is if you can humble yourself. In every situation you keep your mouth in the dust and say Lord I am a nobody.

If there is a problem with somebody I will take the blame 100%. A humble man will take the blame 100%. That is how Jesus hung on the cross. He took the blame 100 for your sin and my sin. Think if he had been like some of us.

It is not my fault. That is what many believers say. It is not my fault. I am alright. Many believers say I am alright. I am not doing anything wrong. Why have you put me here? So many believers they don't have the spirit of Christ.

They have the spirit of Adam. Adam have you sinned? Lord just let me explain. First of all this wife is a bit of a problem. She went and took this fruit like a stupid woman. That is the number one problem.

Number two, don't forget you only gave me this wife. What to do? I didn't choose her. You gave me this wife. You gave me this stupid woman who listens to the devil. Then in soft words I also opened my mouth and ate it.

Is that how you confess your sin? You are a follower of Adam. His fault. He did this. He did this. What about you? I also opened my mouth and did something. What about Jesus? Yes Father. You make me sin.

Convert me into sin. Bible says God made him sin. 2 Corinthians 5 .21. For whom? He had never done one sin in his life. He never opened his mouth. Do you follow Jesus or do you follow Adam? Adam was a proud man.

He couldn't take the blame even for his own sin. Jesus was a humble man. So he could take the blame for other people's sin. When you pray and say Lord make me like Jesus. I want God to dwell with me. You will go through many afflictions.

Healing, Grace, and the Christian's Mortal Body

I am not talking about sickness. I said 80 of the sicknesses that believers get is because of this curse on the earth. See we are delivered from the curse in our spirit. Jesus has become a curse for us.

There is no curse on our spirit. We are freed 100%. But not in our body. Not yet. That's why we still wear glasses. You know in heaven I will not wear glasses. In fact when you see me in heaven you won't even recognize me.

Because I will have hair on my head and it will all be black. And I will look like a 33 and a half year old young man. And so will you. And all of us will look beautiful. Now you look into a mirror and say Lord why did you give me such an ugly face?

Sister just wait. The Lord will change your face very soon. Just wait. Can you wait a little? Don't be in a hurry. The Lord will give you a beautiful face one day. Just wait. When people look at you in heaven they will say this is the same sister I knew on the earth.

Even your husband will be surprised. Hey how did you become so beautiful? That is what God can do. Now till then this body is also under the curse. And the greatest proof of it is that believers die. The Lord told Adam you are dust you will return to dust.

And even that Pentecostal believer who believes in healing his body will become dust. Because this body is still under the curse. And death can come to this body sickness can also come. And so that doesn't mean God doesn't help us.

In this world of a curse God helps us. We can ask him to heal us. Some sickness he may not heal. But there will be a purpose. Whenever I am sick I always pray like this. Lord heal me. For 50 years as a believer I have prayed that.

Heal me. I don't want to be healed to do my own will. I want to be healed to do your will. But if you don't heal me give me something better than healing. Some special grace. One of the two. Either heal me completely or give me something better than healing.

Like you told Paul I will not heal you but I will give you grace. That's ok then I will keep the sickness no problem. But one of the two you must definitely give me. I lay hold of God like that. And I can tell you in Jesus name God has always given me one of the two.

Either he gives me healing many times or he gives me grace which is better than the healing. You pray like that. He is your father. For example you take a man like Timothy. Timothy was Paul's finest co-worker.

But see what Paul tells Timothy in 1 Timothy 5 .23. See when Paul writes this letter this is towards the end of Paul's life. And Timothy had already been with Paul for about 25 years. Twenty five years as a whole hearted brother.

And Paul says he is the best of all my co-workers. What does he have? Frequent stomach ache. Stomach ache today. Little better tomorrow. Day after tomorrow again stomach ache. One day is better. Again stomach ache.

Paul prayed for him hundred times. Anointed him with oil everything. Stomach ache still. Paul asked him are you better today? I anointed you with oil and prayed for you. Are you better today? No Paul I still have stomach ache.

Finally Paul said ok Timothy we have prayed for you enough now. Take some medicine to help your stomach. You think it is so difficult for a God who raised the dead to heal a stomach ache? And that also for one of the best of his servants?

It was not at all difficult. But that was Timothy's thorn in the flesh. To keep him humble. Sometimes God allows it. Demas who ran away after the world. They are all quite healthy. Because God has left him.

He says I have got nothing to do. Let him go wherever he wants. Look at all these terrorists and suicide bombers. They are all quite healthy. But Paul has got a thorn in the flesh. Timothy has got a stomach ache.

So don't think that sickness comes only to those who are not whole hearted. First book in the Bible written was Job. Moses wrote Genesis and Job lived much before Moses. And the first book in the Bible tells about a godly man who became sick.

So I am just mentioning this because so many wrong attitudes we have about sickness. But let me also say there are 20 of sicknesses among believers due to other reasons. Because they haven't forgiven somebody.

Or they are always anxious, anxious, anxious and then they have problems. They don't believe God's word. Or they have got some bitterness against somebody. Or they are running after money so much. Or they have got bad habits.

Or they eat too much. Then they get sick because of all that. I remember once I was asked to pray for an unbeliever who was sick. Jesus prayed for a lot of unbelievers who were sick. But I went there and I said why should we pray for this man?

We have to give God a good reason. So I said shall I pray like this? Lord this man is so weak now. He doesn't have strength to go and stand in the cinema queue now. He is so weak. He cannot shout at his wife now.

So we heal him so that he can go and stand in the cinema queue now. He is a strong man. So that he can shout at his wife. Shall we give God these reasons? So I said that to help people to understand why are you praying for healing?

We must pray for healing because say Lord I want to do your will. Then God will heal you. See recently I was travelling in Europe and America for some meetings. And I was in Europe and America for one month.

I was having a cough and a cold and a cough and a cold. When I was in Europe and America for one month, I was having a cough and a cold. If I could overcome it within 3 -4 days, I would have overcome it.

But I couldn't because I had about 50 meetings in 3 weeks. And I couldn't say no I can't come. So what shall I do? I said I will take all the meetings. Whether I am sick or healthy, I will serve the Lord.

So I would stand in the meeting, speak and cough. Take some water and speak. Have 2 -3 minutes cough again and drink some water. I said the devil is not going to win. I did not miss one meeting. And I praised the Lord.

I said Lord you can heal me in one moment. I mean right now I am very healthy. God could have done that for me then. And I said Lord why did you allow this then? And I got 2 reasons from God. One is for yourself and one is for other people.

First of all for yourself. I want to teach you to give thanks in all situations. When we are sick, we expect other people to do more for us. We get offended if other people didn't come and serve us when we are sick.

I have no expectation from anybody. I am thankful for those who serve me. But no demand why don't you come and serve me. Zero. So that test comes only when we are sick. That we don't have any demands on anybody.

I remember hearing of a very godly man whom I met. He was an old widower. His wife had died. He was living alone in a house in Europe. One young brother was there staying in the house to help him. And this old brother got up from his bed to go to the bathroom at 2 o 'clock or something in the morning.

And he fell down. And he broke his hand. You know what he did? He sat with that broken hand till about 6 .30 in the morning. He said, I don't want to disturb that brother's sleep. When he wakes up at 6 .30, I will tell him, please take me to the hospital.

I said, Lord, this is how I want to be. This is real godliness. It's not just preaching. That you don't make a demand on other people. Can you be like that? What a considerate man that man was. He was one of the most godly men I met in my life.

I will never forget that. So that's the first thing God taught me. My problem was not like a broken hand. It was much less than that. But the Lord said, you must live a life where you have no demands on other people no matter what your condition is.

Secondly, I want to make you an example for other people who will miss a meeting if they got a little headache, a little rain, I won't go to the meeting. I want to make you an example to them. If you cough and cough and cough, you will still go to the meeting.

You will not only go to the meeting, you will speak there. I believe God accomplished something. What I am trying to say is, God uses even sickness for his glory. But from other people, there will be many afflictions.

Entrusting Church and Family Leadership to God

But in those afflictions, if God is with you, you will always overcome. So, this must be our longing all the time. Lord, I want you to be with me. Nobody can conquer me then. Even sickness comes, if you are with me, that's enough.

When all the people would oppose Moses, where can we get water now Moses? Imagine 20 lakhs of people shouting at you saying, where can we get water? Why have you brought us out into this wilderness? You are not good to be a leader.

You know there are elder brothers who get upset even if one or two people say much less than that. I have been in this ministry now with our churches for 34 years and I have seen many many problems in our churches.

It's just like children growing up. When they are small, they have a problem. When they are teenagers, another type of problem. The Lord has told me to do what Moses did. You know what Moses used to do whenever there was a problem?

He would lie down flat on the ground. He said, Lord, I did not want to be the leader of these people. No, I did not want it. You only called me. You only told me to go into Egypt and take them out. These people think I myself made myself their leader.

I never wanted to be their leader. You made me. Now Lord, take care of this problem. So, I also say the same thing. There is a beautiful verse in Isaiah chapter 9 which is a favorite verse of mine. I say this to you because if you are an elder or even if you are a father and mother in a home, you can have problems in your home.

All of us will face it. But see what it says. Isaiah 9 verse 6 says about Jesus. In the middle of that verse, the government will rest on his shoulders. I say that. I say, Lord, the government is not on my shoulders.

I am not governing even one church. This is your work. The government is on your shoulders. My duty is only to lie down flat on the ground. If there is a problem, Lord, you solve it. You tell me what to do, I will do it.

I will not take the government on my shoulders. What about my family or your family? When there is a problem, what should you do? Fall on your face before God and say, Lord, the government of my family is on your shoulders.

I cannot handle this problem. Maybe your wife is sick or your children are sick or there is some rebellion or some other problem. Brother, sister, humble yourselves. Fall on your face and say, Almighty God, you dwell here with me.

I cannot solve this. The government will be on your shoulders. I will tell you something. He will solve every problem. I have experienced that. My wife and I have been married for 41 years. The devil has attacked us and our family in so many ways.

He has never won. Not even once. He can oppress you for a long time, but he will be defeated finally. So, if God is with you, like in the burning bush, God is there. That is the most important thing. For that, isn't it simple?

Humility Through Injustice and Opposition

Only one condition. Be humble. Let God humble you. You know, whenever you hear somebody spread a false story about you. So, in the last 34 years, people have spread all types of stories about me. Some I heard, some I have not even heard.

I am not interested. But, let them tell those false stories. That brings us down. Lord, I am nothing to nobody. Let them say what they like. I only want you to be with me. God uses all that to break us.

When people treat us unjustly, that is good for us. I remember once when my 14 year old son was going to a small school. It was a Christian school, but those teachers were from some other denomination.

They did not like me. So, they tried to trouble my children. Finally, they troubled my youngest son so much. He was a poor boy. He was only 14 years old. He came home on the last day of school and said, I told him, I said, son, when you grow up, you are going to go into a world where you will face much more injustice than what you are facing here.

Do you think in the world, everybody is going to treat you nicely when you go to work somewhere? You get a job when you are 25 years old, you will find so many people treat you badly. You will have co-workers who try to suppress you.

Isn't it good that you are getting a training for that when you are 14 years old? All your geography and history will not help you there. What will help you there is if you can learn to overcome this injustice in school itself.

And this training you are getting free. This maths and science, we are paying the fees for. But this injustice from the teachers, you are getting free education. Take it. And that is a more important education than your maths and science.

We must encourage our children. We are in a world which is against God. And we will face injustice from childhood. And if God is with us, we must put that faith into our children. I heard of one man in China who used to cast out demons.

The demons or anybody demon possessed, they would bring him to his house. One day they brought somebody. That brother was not in the house. But his 12 year old son was there. He said, bring the person.