#85 Understanding Original Translations of Your Favorite Scriptures + Dr. Kevin Grasso

Today we're going to talk about some verses that you know, you love, but do you really know them? I have brought in the expert, literally Dr. Kevin Grasso. You're a biblical scholar, linguist, the co-founder and CEO of Biblingo.

All translations are interpretations. It's not necessarily bad, it just is.

Ephesians 6, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood. As a Sunday school Christian just thought that meant there's some bad guys out there.

If Paul wanted to say that we wrestle with sin, he would have said we wrestle with sin.

Why didn't he just say like demons?

Demons are real spiritual beings.

Wow, this is good.

Hello, hello, welcome to Biblically Speaking. My name is Cassian Bellino and I'm your host. In this podcast, we talk about the Bible in simple terms with experts, PhDs and scholarly theologians to make understanding God easier.

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Hello, hello.

Welcome to Biblically Speaking. I'm your host, Cassian Blino. Today, we're going to talk about some verses that you know you love, but do you really know them? Do you read them in the original translation?

And you know how they were said with the original intent? I don't. And so I feel like there's a lot of verses that I've been reading wrong. What do they actually mean in Hebrew? What do they actually mean in Greek?

I have brought in the expert that can do all the translations for us. Literally, Dr. Kevin Grasso. You are a Biblical, I mean, beyond just knowing translations, you're a Biblical scholar. You're an author.

You're a linguist. You also have a PhD in Hebrew language from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where you spent five years that we were just talking about. You have a master's degree in linguistics.

You focus on the Biblical Hebrew verbal system. You have a master's degree in comparative religion. You focus on Paul and the Second Temple Judaism. And this has led you to become the co-founder and CEO of Biblingo, which is an innovative platform that essentially allows you to read the Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek.

Welcome to the show. This is going to be fun.

Thanks, Cassie. I'm also very excited.

So language kind of seems like it's taken over your life. Why did you choose that?

Yeah, honestly, the original sort of impetus was just trying to understand the Bible. So I got into theology and, you know, Biblical interpretation and realized that, you know, a lot of the sort of theological discussions that people were having were really about what Greek words and Hebrew words meant.

And so if I was going to engage seriously in those kinds of conversations, I needed to learn those languages.

Yeah.

Okay, got it.

Was there any like big surprises that you kind of learned along the way of like, oh, people don't know this or people have been getting this verse wrong so much?

Yeah, basically every day that happens to me. So honestly, it's been something where as I have, you know, gotten better and better at these languages, I have realized more and more just how influenced I am personally by my own English translations.

So, you know, you just you grow up, you're reading a particular translation, which, you know, all translations are interpretations necessarily. So it's not necessarily bad. It's just it just is. And so I'm reading it through someone else's understanding.

And so, you know, when I go back to the original, I often just see things in a different way. And so it's and honestly, it's hard to even like quantify. It's just a completely different experience of reading the Bible, really.

Well, I'm excited to have that experience myself, because what we're going to do today is a classic biblically speaking format. I'm going to read a couple verses, and I'm going to just show. I'm going to try to represent the general understanding of it.

When I read this, this is what I thought, you know, they don't really go much deeper in church. How should I?

Let's clarify it.

We'll get through as many as we can in the next 60 minutes. Starting off, we're going to start with Ephesians 6, 12. Ephesians 6, 12.

This one's a classic.

And just with all the work on demons that I've done, I feel like I kind of understand what's what's being said. But I'll try to go back to how I used to read it. Ephesians 6, 12. For we for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces.

And that's in the ESV. So before I did all that demon work on understanding, you know, kind of where this might have come from, and like the unseen realm, I as a Sunday school Christian just thought that meant there's some bad guys out there, you know, for we don't wrestle with the bad guys here on earth.

We wrestle with something bigger than ourselves. I feel like that's like a pretty, you know, generic understanding of it. Is that what the text says?

Yeah, so I think you're exactly right, that there's a tendency to sort of like make these cosmic powers and authorities just more tangible or things that we know in our Western culture. So, you know, this like vague general idea of sin or evil or something like that.

But you are exactly right. I mean, these words, I mean, if Paul wanted to say that we wrestle with sin, he would have said we wrestle with sin, right? That's just not what he said, right? And so the question is, what do these words mean and how do they function in Paul's Second Temple Jewish context?

And in that context, demons are real spiritual beings and they have power to influence humans. And so because of that, you have to resist that through, you know, what Paul says is palais, you know, to wrestle.

It is a wrestling match. And so this word is also used, you know, for example, so this is the noun. The verb is used in Genesis for, you know, Jacob wrestling with the angel, right? And so it's the same kind of idea of you wrestling, struggling with these cosmic powers that are trying to have influence over you.

And so to him, it is a very real tangible thing that's happening every day. But yeah, to us, I think you're exactly right. We normally don't, we don't understand the spiritual, the like truly spiritual dimension of what's going on.

So if he was, so it's implying that he's wrestling with these demons, why didn't he just use a word like demons? I think that's what always threw me is the rulers, the authorities, the cosmic powers, like this type of understanding for it made it seem like it wasn't demons.

Why didn't he just say like, like legion was, you know, they say demons there. Why weren't they saying demons here?

Yeah, so I think what Paul is trying to bring out is the fact that they have power and influence. So a text like Jubilees 15 is a good example of this. So Jubilees is a work written before the New Testament time, probably second or third century BC.

And it's about, it's kind of like a retelling sort of the story of Genesis and Exodus. So it's Moses receives the, it's Moses's reception of, you know, basically other teachings, okay, from Sinai. And in Jubilees 15, it says, but he chose Israel, he being God, that they might be a people for himself.

And he sanctified them and gathered them from all of the sons of man, because there are many nations and many people, and they all belong to him. But over all of them, he calls spirits to rule so that they might lead them astray from following him.

But over Israel, he did not cause any angel or spirit to rule because he alone is their ruler and he will protect them. He will seek for them and at the hand of his angels, at the hand of his spirits and at the hand of all of his authorities so that he might guard them and bless them.

So the idea is that there are Israel, right, in context of Jubilees, is guarded and has a certain authority over them, namely God, right? And so that is distinct from the authority or rulers of the other nations, which have spirits ruling over them that are leading them astray from God.

And so that's, I think, exactly what Paul is picking up on here is that these other spirits, right, are the rulers of Gentile nations. And if you were a Gentile, that's what you were being ruled by. And so if you come into the people of God, right, you are now wrestling against the things that once ruled over you.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's actually connecting way more dots than beyond translations.

Yes.

That whole theory, like, out of Babel, where, like, the spirits were sent out after Babel and that's, like, a whole other episode and it's covered that in other episodes, I didn't realize that there was a Jubilee verse that was essentially confirming all of that, essentially saying, like, hey, those spirits that we did send out that did lead you astray that you do honor as a Gentile absolutely is bringing you farther away from God.

Like, oh my gosh, that's, like, where other religions began. That's so crazy. Okay, oh, I love this clarity. I love when it all complements each other.

Yep.

Yep, for sure.

So Paul's being literal here. This isn't, like, a metaphor. This isn't, like, we're talking in a euphemism. He's directing demons. And I guess my other question, and I don't know if this is, like, something you can answer, is did people talk about demons openly like this?

Or was he kind of saying, like, hey, did you guys know there were demons? Or they were like, oh yeah, the demons that we know about.

Yeah.

No, I mean, I think way, way more openly than we do today. I mean, I think, and obviously you see this in the gospels themselves, right? Where demons are just part of life. And, you know, you cast them out and they might come back and whatever.

So I will say, you know, the question of, like, you know, literal versus metaphorical, like, it's not literal in the sense, in the same way that, like, Jacob wrestled with the angel, right?

Okay.

Like, there was a being there that Jacob was, like, you know, grappling, like, physically grappling, right? And so I think this is, honestly, I think the literal versus metaphorical distinction is sometimes not always the most helpful one in that, like, it is actual literal wrestling.

But it's not physical wrestling, right? And so there is, there are actually spiritual forces, right? That are grappling for, you know, the Ephesians' obedience, right? And they have to actually wrestle with them.

But it is not wrestling like you would watch on television, right? So that's, I think, you know, I would want to say it is real, a real struggle, a real physical, or a real actual struggle with these demons.

But it's not a physical one in the same way that, you know, you might think of as wrestling.

Interesting. Okay.

I think we're going great. We're doing great on time. I'm going to keep going, and we'll hit the next one. 1 Peter 2 .24. I'm pretty sure I have actually spent a little bit of time on this in an episode with Dr. James Sedlicek.

He also does a lot of linguistics. But this one is pretty common. I mean, he bore himself, he himself bore our sins in his body on the tree that we might die to sin and live to righteousness by whose wounds you have been healed.

Just as a blanket reaction, what's the big deal? You know, like, I feel like that is literally what we believe in as Christians. I'm like, yeah, he died for our sins. And that is why, you know, he gave his grace to us.

What is the big ruckus about it? Like, what about this? Is it because they call it a tree and not a cross? You know, to me, there's no problem with this verse. Why is there misconceptions about it?

Yeah, I think there's several things going on here. So one is the toxulon. That is the tree piece. So that's the Greek word for tree. Interestingly, I mean, this word, so it's also, you know, quoted by Paul in Galatians 3 .13, curses anyone who hangs on a tree.

And so in that context, I think it's basically the same context in First Peter here, right? Is the idea is that it's a reference to Deuteronomy 21. And it is basically saying that the person who hangs on a tree has taken on the covenant curses.

So, you know, Deuteronomy is a treaty. That is our understanding of it, covenant treaty. It's an agreement between God, Yahweh, and Israel. And so the part of the stipulation of that agreement is that Israel obeys.

And so if, you know, they don't, right, they would be cursed. So this would just be part of that curse, right? Is that you would be, you would hang on a tree. This has a lot to do with, again, just more background information.

Like the, it was seen as bad to not have your body buried. So, you know, for example, you know, David says to Goliath, you know, the birds of the heavens will eat your carcass, right? So that was a bad thing to them to not only be killed, but also to have your body not properly buried or disposed of.

So to hang on a tree, right? You would be cursed because you would have the birds come and eat your body and you wouldn't be properly buried. And so here, like, you know, in this context, it's clearly drawing on imagery from Isaiah 53.

And then the idea is that, you know, the Messiah has taken on the covenant curse for his people. There's a lot, so that's one thing, okay? I will say just the, this word tree is actually, there's another word in Greek that I would normally think of as tree, dendron.

This is xylon. It's more properly like wood, but it's also used for like the tree of life. So it's, there's a lot of resonances of this word with a lot of different things in the Bible. All kinds of things going on.

The other thing is, so the big question is like, okay, Jesus is cursed on the tree or on the wood, right? Which makes, like I said, makes the resonances with the cross like fit better. But the question is like, you know, what does it mean to do so for sins?

So I think that, so there's a number, again, a number of like ways you can do this. But I think in this context, the idea is not really about forgiveness as much as transformation. So, you know, the phrase, te dikaiosuneis desoumen, like we will live in righteousness.

Again, I don't even know. I don't even know about the ESV. We might die to sin and live to righteousness, right? So the idea is that you are transformed, right? You die to sin and you live differently.

You now live righteously because of the sacrifice that Jesus made. Again, we normally think of Jesus sacrifice forgiveness. I would say that in this context, it's more Jesus sacrifice transformation. And I would say that's honestly the normal kind of context of Jesus sacrifice, but that's a whole nother discussion as well.

Okay.

Okay. There's a verb here that says, basically translates for what it means in Greek. Is that like, what role is that playing here? That he bore his, bore our sins.

Yeah. So again, this is the, this word is the word that's often used for like offering a sacrifice in the Old Testament. So you can say something like, Anenenken tol probaton. So it's, it's, he brought his, the sheep, right?

So this is, this is the word brought. And so this is, so this is where some of the debate has been that, like, how exactly do we understand, like what's being brought, right? So the problem is like, atas hamartias, the sins, our sins, is most likely referring to actual sins.

They also, in theory, it could also refer to sin offering. That's the same word. But, but I think it is actually referring to sins. So, so it, while it is picking up on sort of like cultic language and offering things on an altar, right?

So you would normally, you could, you know, bring a sin offering to an altar, on an altar. So in this case, something's being brought, sins, and then the upon is on the tree, right? So I think it's picking up on all this cultic language, but it's transforming it to say that, you know, basically Jesus brought this offering of sin onto the, onto the tree, right?

The reason why I wouldn't, I would like, want to be very, very careful with that, is offerings like sacrifices are, are not ever sinful, right? They're unblemished. They are, you know, they're, they're not supposed to be tainted in any way.

So while I do think it is picking up on these sorts of images, I don't think it's envisioning, like, this death in a sacrifice in the same way that the Old Testament sacrificial system does sacrifices.

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Now back to the show.

Okay, that definitely has a lot of context. Okay, I think we're doing great on time. I just wanna make sure we hit all the right ones. So I'm gonna go ahead and skip to Psalm 137, nine, and spice it up a little bit.

Sure, yeah.

So I'm sure, maybe you're a Christian who just opened up the Bible and you see this guy and you see, blessed shall, blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock.

What?

So you tell me, what do you do with this verse?

You know, killing babies, it's honorable. You know, blessed be the ones that actually take it up. And I don't know, this is crazy. Like there has to be more context before and below. Like we've got a sandwich that's in here that this is just one verse that, you know, this has to be satirical.

This has to be facetious, unless it's honoring kind of like the infanticide that you see with Moses and then at Jesus's birth. Like that's like the only context I have without any further explanation.

Yeah, so I think there's basically two things that you can do with this. Two things that have been done by scholars. One is just to say that the psalmist is wrong. Just so, so, so, like,.

Do we know who the psalmist is?

No. So, so here, here's what we know. If I can just read, I'll read just in English. The first part, the first verse, this is the ESV. By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept when we remembered Zion.

Okay, so this already gives us the context of what's happening, right? This is after the exile. People are in Babylon and they are remembering Zion, okay? So this is people who have obviously experienced exile and war and pain.

And so they, it goes on, on the willows there, we hung up our lyres. For there our captors required of us songs and our tormentors mirth saying, sing us one of the songs of Zion. So they're asked to sing and they say, we're not going to sing for you.

How should we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill. Yada, yada, yada. So skipping down to verse eight, just before when you brought up, O daughter of Babylon doomed to be destroyed.

Blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us. Okay. So now, so the idea is that Babylon has, has done all of these terrible things to them, right? And the person who repays them for what they have done is, is blessed.

Okay.

And then blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock. The idea being that they did it, right? And they deserve that to be done to them, right? So this sort of like very similar to an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, right?

So if, if, again, there are two options here. You can say that this is just, it is God's rightful covenant curse coming upon people who have acted wrongly to others. First,.

Right?

Sorry, I shouldn't say rightful covenant curse, rightful judgment coming to people who have done this to others. Again, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You could also say that the people who are writing were not necessarily right or justified in wishing this upon, or in saying that it's actually blessed to, to do this.

So, so just to back up, whatever idea you have of inspiration, like we know this has to be the case that not everything everyone says in the Bible is true, right? So like Job's friends.

That is scary.

Well, so, so just, just roll with me.

Whoa, you're unraveling me.

So like Job's friends, right? Job's friends offer him, by and large, bad advice, right? And that's just okay. It's just, it's just, it just is, it's reporting something, right? And so this is, this is part of the problem with the Psalms.

It's not a problem, but just, it's a different kind of literature. It's, it's reporting what people are feeling, right? And so this report of what people are feeling may or may not be good, right? It could just be that this person, whoever is writing this Psalm is obviously, well, they obviously are very upset, right?

And they are, they are unwilling to forgive and unwilling to, you know, look past, or, you know, pray, love their enemies, right? In a way that is, in a way that would be honoring to God, right? So, so that's just, it just is, right?

It's not right or wrong, right? The Psalms often just are expressions of what people feel. I mean, so in that sense, again, the point is not, it's not endorsing. I think, I think any way you take it, it's not endorsing dashing little ones against rocks, right?

It's saying either one, that this Psalmist is, you know, is expressing a feeling that is not necessarily good, or two, that the Psalmist is expressing a principle of you will be judged in the way that you acted before, right?

Which again, the eye for an eye, tooth for tooth thing, like that's very common.

Yeah, Old Testament, because then Jesus comes and he's like, your right hand don't know what your left hand does, and you know, turn the other cheek. So is this, comment, like, is that just how people were lamenting back then that God was okay with?

Like, I think there is an element of like, sure, they're wrong. Nobody's endorsing this, but that is how they were allowed to feel enough in a way that they were being represented, you know, in right form.

So God's like, yeah, like that's how it was back then.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, it is, you know, I do think, again, this is something you have to be careful with, but like, you know, it does seem like in the Sermon on the Mount, there is a distinction between, you know, we used to say an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but now Jesus is saying, like, you actually shouldn't do that anymore, right?

You should not just repay people back the wrong that they've done to you. And so I do think that it's okay, again, to say, well, that's the principle reflected in this text, but it's not a principle that Christians should abide by necessarily, right?

Because that is based on the command we have from Jesus to love your enemies, right? I think it is very difficult to square that text with this text. And again, I would just say that that's okay. They're doing different things.

At the very least, this is not a commandment, right? No one's commanding anyone to do anything here. It is an expression of a feeling, right? They think that it is good for Babylon to be repaid in this way, in the way that they treated them.

But that feeling is not the same as being commanded to do that.

Okay, that's fair.

Is this, okay, so this is more of like a trauma that they are kind of let being said, because that is how they were sharing how they felt in the time of Amidst an exile, as anybody would.

Right, exactly. They had their kids dashed upon the rock. Blessed is the one who does the same thing to Babylon, right? Again, I would encourage people to not make a value judgment about whether it's right or wrong.

But just to say that this is, like if you're reading someone's journal, right? And they are expressing how they're feeling, like it's not right or wrong, right? And that's not the point, right? The point is like, this is how bad exile is.

This is what we're feeling, right? We want these people destroyed because this is what they did to us.

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Okay, that's fair. Okay, um, I'm gonna go forward with a second. I think I can like fit in like two or three more, so I'm gonna...

Okay, yeah, wherever you, whatever you want.

Okay, Second Corinthians 1210. I feel like this is a good one because if you're an early Christian, you look at this and you're like, what am I supposed to do with that?

What?

Like, this doesn't make any sense. And like, this is almost,.

I always like to call this,.

And I say this with love, the masochistic Christianity, where you're like, I love when it's hard because, and like, you know, because God gets to show up. Like, that's the ending of that sentence. But Second Corinthians 1210 is, for the sake of Christ, then I am content with weakness, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities.

For when I am weak, I am strong. I feel like that's just positive thinking. Just keep it together. It's like, is there something that, like, it's similar. Is it just that? Like, what am I missing here?

I mean, it could be. There, again, are, you know, several things going on. The one thing I would point out to begin with this first verb, that I am content. I think content is too weak. So this is the same verb.

It's a good translation of it, you mean.

Yes, yes. So like, it's not a strong enough word. So, el doco is the word. This is the same word that's used in, like, Mark, for example. This is my beloved son, in whom I am well-pleased, right? It's el docosa.

It's the same word. So, well-pleased.

Way deeper than content. Like, I am proud of.

Yep, yep, yep. So I would say, so honestly, I think that verse is also mistranslated. I would say that it's better to understand it as approved. So like, the idea is that the Holy Spirit falls on him.

This is my beloved son. I approve of him, right? This is the guy that I've approved of. It's not a reflection of.

It's totally different than well-pleased. Well-pleased is like, we've made a contract and he's fulfilled it, and I'm pleased with his work. I approved is like, stamp of approval. We're moving forward with this one.

Yes, I think that's exactly what's going on. So it's just before Jesus starts his ministry. You know, so the whole point is that Jesus is in front of the crowd, you know, at, near John the Baptist and his crowd.

And God wants everyone to know that this is the guy. I approve of him, right? And so this is the same word. So content is really, like I said, it's too weak, right? You could say like, I approve of, or I accept, right?

So again, the point is that it's not just a feeling of like contentment. In fact, I would say it's really not a feeling. It's really not about feeling. And there are plenty of examples of this verb where you don't feel good about what you're accepting.

And so the point is that you might not like weakness and insults and hardships, persecutions and calamities, but you might still accept them, right? You accept them. Why would you accept them? You accept them for a greater good.

I mean, it's like, you know, no one, I mean, if you, I don't know, if you like workout or are into the fitness world at all. But so great.

Yeah.

So I'm very much in that world as well. And so like, if you do a really hard workout, right? Like, and if you like, really like destroy yourself, you can even, you can do that, right? And no one really likes that.

I mean, you can push yourself to the point where no one's having fun anymore. Like it's, the fun was a long time ago. And now I'm just feeling pain.

Oh, I'm feeling pain right now. Like from days ago workouts. So it's even like the, I'm still destroying for a workout the other day. You're like, I still can't walk.

Right, right, right.

So like, but you do that because there's a greater good, right? So, so for the sake of something else, I will do that. I will put myself in those situations. And so I, so like for when I am weak, then I am strong.