Jeff Durbin: Establishing Justice & Answering Objections | EAN

Isaiah’s Call to Justice and the Unchanging Character of God

Alright, trying to keep this moving so that we don't abuse you and your time. If you would open your Bibles to Isaiah chapter 1. Isaiah chapter 1. I'd encourage you pastors to spend a lot of time here.

Now.

Getting right into this Isaiah chapter 1 is a passage that God Has used in my life to expose my own selfishness. To expose my own inconsistencies to challenge me as a hypocrite and. So that's why I'm giving it to you.

I hope the same for you. This particular passage Is something that God used years ago in my life to challenge me as a pastor and just as a follower of Christ in terms of. We've got abortion mills right down the street from our church building and for where we gather for worship from my home.

Some of these abortion mills would do upwards of 50 some-odd abortions per day. Years ago when we first got started. God used this particular text years ago when he was challenging me on adopting my son Augustine and.

I.

Think what's said here is important for us to take into consideration. Here's what's powerful about this moment. There's a room full of pastors and believers men and women in this room from across, Iowa.

I don't know which churches you're from. I know these weird dudes are from their Presby's. Okay, I was complimenting their clothes saying you look like a reformed Baptist. They were like, they actually defended that I said they were reformed Baptist.

They were like Presbyterian. I'm like, oh the superior theology. I got it. Just joking. No, but what's interesting? It's being playful, but I don't know where you're from. I don't know your denomination my Hope is that you hold to the essentials of the gospel the triune God the authority the ultimacy of the scriptures Sola scriptura were saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone that we're together on the essentials Jesus is coming back.

There is a day of judgment all of that. We're unified, right? But what's powerful is that there are differences we understand between us, right? Pato baptism credo baptism, which one's right? We all know.

You know. You know. But we can see look it was funny. I'm doing this on purpose. We can laugh about that because we don't understand there are tertiary issues. There are Addy off for a side issues that we should handle that way serious about them when we're together.

We take them seriously. We know there's consequences. We want to win each other over to the truth, but we recognize We're part of the body of Christ. We love the same. We'll have the same Savior. We have the same Word of God underneath us and what's interesting about this particular text.

I want to make this point brothers is That though there may be differences between us denominationally as Christians what we have as a unified truth that we surround and grab hold of is That God's nature is.

Unchanging.

God does not change and so what I want to challenge you on in terms of I don't know where you're at and The scope of God's law how much of God's law is abiding and relevant today? You know, are you you know hardcore theonomist?

Are you theonomist light? Are you not even into that thing? That's not really the point what I want to point to here is that God is unchanging and What he says here in Isaiah chapter 1 should challenge us all because whatever your position is on eschatology Whatever your position is on the abiding relevance of God's law today in terms of to what extent and and what what comes over today?

What's abiding today? Well, we can agree on is that God's nature is unchanging. And so what he says here in Isaiah chapter 1 is how God is. It's how he is he's unchanging so in Isaiah chapter 1 verse 10 Hear the word of the Lord.

Here's what God says. Hear the word of the Lord. You rulers of Sodom give ear to the teaching of our God you people of Gomorrah. And we all understand that that is the highest level of insult and cutting.

To say to the covenant people of God the professing believing people of God to say to the church Sodom and Gomorrah is The highest level of insults. They understood they know their scriptures. They know what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah.

They understand the high hand of sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. And so for the covenant people of God who worship Yahweh who are involved in getting together who are involved in all the religious Ceremony and all that religious practice who are professing faith in Yahweh like to call them Sodom and Gomorrah is is A severe serrated edge, but God says it to him.

He says give ear to the teaching of our God you people of Gomorrah. What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices says the Lord? I've had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls or of lambs or of goats. When you come to appear before me who is required of you this trampling of my courts bring no more vain Offerings incense is an abomination to me new moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations.

I cannot endure Iniquity and solemn assembly your new moons and your appointed feasts my.

Soul hates.

They have become a burden to me. I'm weary of burying them. When you spread out your hands I will hide my eyes from you even though you make many prayers. I Will not listen. Your hands are full of blood.

Wash yourselves make yourselves clean. Remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes. Here it is. Cease to do evil. Learn to do good. Seek justice.

Correct.

Oppression. Bring justice to the fatherless. Plead the widow's cause. Now I mentioned where we unified. Unified in the nature of God were unified around the scriptures the authority of Scripture were unified on so many essential Christian truths.

And we're unified on God's unchanging nature. This is the God that we worship. He doesn't cease being like this this he doesn't lose this aspect of his character and concern for justice. Because now we're under the new covenant.

We're all under grace and God just done with all that law stuff. He's not concerned with justice anymore because now we have Jesus.

We're broken.

We are broken as a church if we think that that's what God is like if We understand the law of God and the grace of God in that manner. Then we have missed the point in scripture. And so what we have here is this example in Israel's redemptive history and the covenant history the people of God they're doing all the stuff.

They have the worship services. They have the convocations. They have the prayers. They look like religious people on the outside. They look like they're doing everything right? I mean, that's the point two of you would have asked them like beyond your profession the fact that you confess Yahweh is Lord.

Like how do you show it? They would say we have convocation. We have new moons. We have Sabbaths. We have all these prayers. We have all these things that we're doing and here's what God says to it all in his in his perfect Holy, holy, holy character.

He says to his own covenant people the professing believing people of God. He says my soul hates this and he says you can pray all you want. I'm not gonna respond. I won't even listen. This is how God responds to professing covenant believing people.

When there is so much blood on their hands and injustice in their midst and here's what's powerful about this passage when it first hit Me it was something that really impacted me because I already knew the next part and so do you so do you especially if you?

Were like a 90s contemporary Christian who like went to Berean Christian bookstore or something like this was all over the walls and like oil Paintings and it's on cards. It's this was you know. It's a famous verse for Christians and it ought to be you already know it the next verse come now.

Let us reason together saith the Lord though your sins are as scarlet. They shall be what? White as snow you already knew it. You weren't even looking at the page. So you already know the reference is beautiful.

It's precious to us God washes of us or of washes of all of our sin and though our sins are as scarlet. They'd be white as snow. He says He'll forgive us and we know that verse but what is that verse?

It's on the heels of an indictment upon the covenant people of God. Now it's God's nature unchanging. It's unchanging and so he says to the covenant people of God. He says to the professing believing Church.

He says this Wash yourselves make yourselves clean remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes. We say okay. I understand that I understand repentance. I understand turning to you God and then he says this now cease to do evil learn to do good.

Seek justice correct oppression bring justice to the fatherless is God's nature unchanging. Is This how God still is. Yes.

Yes.

God is holy. Holy. Holy. His throne is established on justice. The judge of all the earth will always do right. So much of our Bibles is about justice and righteousness and holiness. The cross of Jesus Christ only Amplifies God's concern of justice and holiness and righteousness.

It doesn't just it doesn't discard it. It's proof that God is concerned with justice and righteousness and holiness. We have a cross. Do you see? So this bootleg version of the gospel and Evangelism today that says that boy have the cross now.

God's no longer God of justice or of holiness or of righteousness. He'll never pour out wrath on a nation again because we have the cross of Jesus. What a fiction. What a fiction. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, he also has all authority.

He's on his throne today, and he is judging nations today. Historically and this nation America doesn't represent Christianity. This nation can go under the boot of Jesus in a moment and get absolutely crushed.

Now I am I am begging God. I know many of you are God be merciful to us as a nation, please. I know your wrath Lord is weird. We're deserving of it long ago. You have been so merciful to us. God, please give more mercy.

Please just more time. Lord if there's 50 righteous like are you praying those kinds of prayers? Like that we're asking God those kind of it's just 50 righteous. How many are in this room right here Lord 50?

Like you're asking God for that because it's true. You understand that we are a nation that is visibly under God's judgment right now. What how do you know that someone's under judgment? Well, you know.

It's at least to one degree in Romans chapter 1 God gave them over. And if you have people in our nation. Loving their sin loving unrighteousness loving injustice. Mutilating their bodies men with men women with women people loving the murder of children.

We are already under God's judgment and and brothers and sisters. The only way that we're going to resolve this is not through a Christ less Conservatism it is going to be and I am not just trying to give you a pithy slogan.

Listen to me. It is going to be through a full-throated pure undefiled proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Please hear me on that. That's not a motivational speech. That's what has to come from us as ministers of the gospel everywhere around us every sphere and.

Especially.

To the legislature. We've acted like and here's the main issue. We've acted like in this whole this whole debate over abortion. We've acted like. Well, you know, yes Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords and yeah, he said when he ascended Matthew 28 18 through 20 He said all authority in heaven and on earth has been Past tense earth and heaven past tense given to me and on that basis go make disciples of all the nations.

Baptizing them and teaching them to obey. I know he said that but in reality the Christian message the gospel itself the authority of Jesus is something that's like for within the walls Of the church Bible studies and basements that kind of a thing.

But Jesus doesn't have anything really to say as authoritative to our legislature. Funny thing. God already spoke to that long before Jesus ministry in Psalm chapter 2. He says to the kings of the earth be wise.

Obey the Son kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish. The father says to the Son and this is one of the most amazing one of those amazing moments of like Trinitarian theology in the Old Testament like before we see this this this thing blossom in the New Testament and just go all there.

It was the whole time in Psalm chapter 2 the father says to the Son He says ask of me and I will give you the nations for your inheritance the very ends of the earth for your possession. One of my favorite Bible teachers in my own personal history Said it asked a challenging question to me.

He said do you think Jesus forgot to ask? The father says it's not ask of me. I'll give the nations for your inheritance the very ends of the earth for your possession. Do we think Jesus forgot to ask?

Clearly not because the last words he said as he ascended is okay all the authorities mine now have an earth and so now go. Get them. You see we've forgotten That that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords part is not just a pithy Christian slogan.

You see here's the problem in the United States of America, it's not hard for us. It's not challenging for us to go out on the street corner right now. I imagine we could walk with good coats warm coats outside right now.

At least I would. We could go out there right now. We can stand on the street corner and we can start saying Jesus is Lord. He's King of Kings and Lord of Lords. You can raise your voice. You could do it outside of an abortion mill.

You can say Jesus is Lord. He has all authority and people are gonna walk by mostly ignore you you might get a few offensive hand gestures. You might even get some honk-honk thumbs up from the fellow believers in town who agree with you on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

But the point is it's not very dangerous in our nation to proclaim the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Because of the work of faithful Christians behind us who preach the gospel and established Standards of justice based upon the law word of God in our culture and society and I know I realize we all Recognize absolutely.

All those standards are hanging by a thread right now. People don't even understand what they really are where they're from. I get it, but it's not dangerous right now in the United States Generally to proclaim Christ is Lord anywhere.

Is it?

Safe.

Safe, I could do it on tick-tock. Well, I can do it on Twitter. Or X. I can do it on Facebook. I mean them I do they might try to shadow ban me or something like that and they have but I'm safe. I can say Jesus is Lord anywhere.

Why were the early Christians killed? Why were they killed because they believe Jesus is Lord. No, that's pagan Rome. You can worship anything you want. Stone stubble. Hey gold doesn't make a difference.

Rome doesn't care that you worship a different God. What they cared about was that you recognized the ultimacy of the state. They recognized Caesar is Lord and so now you have Christians going around.

When let's be honest, let's be honest in their context. It did not look like Jesus was Lord. Like think about it just for a moment now. Let's go with me. And yes, this is leading in what I'm saying about abortion.

You're gonna catch this is really the main thing. When Jesus ascended Matthew 28 18 through 20, we see it as this glorious moment because we'll come back on it. We know the prophecies. We know who Jesus is.

We look back and out like that's the Ascension. Like he he's going to the right hand of the father to be seated on his throne. He's interceding for us and you see it as this glorious like halo moment, right?

There's all the angels are there you see it as a climax. But let's be honest. For those very confused disciples in that moment 2 ,000 years ago when Jesus says all authority in heaven and.

On earth.

Has been given to me for those very confused disciple the handful of them that were there to witness that for those very confused Disciples it did not look like Jesus was Lord of Heaven and on earth because you know with an earshot of Caesar.

This is being said Essentially Jesus is Lord of heaven and on earth. He has all authority all authority above Caesar. He would have something to say about that. He'd disagree and he did. But for those early Christians, they weren't speaking in a post Christian America where there's still safety and Christians sort of everywhere.

Christians all over the globe there's a handful of followers of Jesus at that moment and Jesus has the audacity to say that he has all Authority not some not most all authority in heaven and on earth and then he ascends says go get the nation's now.

Teach them to obey me when they dispersed from that moment. It looked like a crowd of people going to lunch. There's not many. What is that? It's not a stadium full of people. It's not a lot of people but they went with their marching orders.

All right, he has all authority. He's the king over all things everybody. Let's go proclaim the gospel. Let's call the world to repentance and faith and let's say that Jesus is the king and he's the ultimate you must trust in him for salvation and eternal life and everybody must obey Jesus.

Including Caesar and so Christians in the first century are going around. They're saying Jesus is Lord and we wonder why is room killing him? Jesus is Lord because they were saying when saying Jesus is Lord that Jesus has authority over Caesar.

That's why they were killed and so in Christians today modern. Even jellyfish Christians will say things like no Christians aren't supposed to get in politics. I want to say read your Bible the start of the church is Christians being Persecuted because they had the audacity to say to the political realm of that day in the state.

Jesus has something to say to you. You must obey Jesus and for that they were killed. We don't want to die. Let's be honest. We don't want a Christianity that causes us difficulty where we lose things.

We lose relationships and we're vilified. We don't want a Christianity that throws us in jail. We like a safe Evangelicalism that has an occasional, you know sort of poke towards homosexuality right a safe one on social media.

We don't want to lose our status our platform like we like this stuff. That's sort of like the very easy safe stuff. But we don't want to do what the early church did that turned the entire world upside down.

Upside down and proclaim that Jesus Christ is judge over all the earth. He is the ultimate. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Every knee must bow to Jesus. We don't want to proclaim that kind of gospel.

It gets us in trouble.

The Witness of Wang Yi and the Cost of Confessing Christ

One more word.

Pastors, I was deeply moved and convicted. Challenged years ago years ago when pastor Wang Yi in China was Arrested and he is somewhere we think in China today in some dungeon or some jail. Imprisoned I was so challenged by his testimony this Christian in China who was.

It's amazing how somehow the state understood. Because when they brought the charges against pastor Wang Yi's a Presbyterian pastor faithful man of God preached the gospel. When they brought the charges against pastor Wang Yi and they arrested him and he is again, maybe somewhere in China maybe alive I don't know.

He's suffering up for the cause of the gospel right now. They said that the reason he was being arrested was because he threatened. He threatened the authority of the Chinese state. Well, how did he do that?

He was living as a law-abiding citizen. He wasn't causing Revolution and burning down cities and taking down statues and and destroying property in those three. He wasn't doing anything like that. No, he was saying that Jesus actually had rule and authority over the Chinese Communist Party and for that He is suffering in jail today.

Would you and I do that? I Mean his family's outside of jail. Would would you and I be willing to do that? Would we be willing to say to the state that Christ has authority of you over you? You must obey him.

Would we be willing to sit in a jail cell for this many years and all you have to do is just say all.

Right, I I.

Changed my mind.

You you do have more authority than Jesus. Maybe I'll just pretend to believe that so I can go home to my wife and my kids. You know, how much how much courage and strength do I have to live that kind of life?

But the Chinese state recognized immediately Oh that Christian message there that says that Jesus is actually Lord and we must obey him. Yeah, that can't be preached here. You're going to jail for that one.

You see he understood it. Why don't we? We think that the legislature has No responsibility to obey the triune God of Scripture and I want to just say to you that's a foreign world view to Scripture Jesus is King of Kings.

Do you believe it? Lord of Lords and that means if you if you confess to that that means that you believe that This legislature in the state of Iowa must obey Jesus. They must obey God's law and that brothers and sisters is not the position of the pro-life industry.

They say loudly and proudly That they are not Christian organizations. They are not operating on the basis of Scripture. They are not calling people to repentance and faith. They say we are arguing this case on a Biological level and they say that very very proudly.

We're not doing it as Christians. We're not doing because the Bible. We're not preaching Jesus. We're doing it just on biology if we could just convince people that what's in the womb is is Human from fertilization then their minds will change.

Have we noticed something about our culture today? How lost it is have we noticed something that they're not very concerned with biology right. Isn't that like on the surface like obvious to all of us?

Yeah pro-life is out. No not Jesus. We just do biology. And so if we could just prove to them that it's human from fertilization. They'll see their minds will change and then you see that. Actually, no the Bible has something to say about it the problem isn't biology.

It's the heart that is wicked and has turned from God. It's a rebellious people. It's people that don't love God that actually Romans 1 says are haters of God. The problem is not biology, it's sin and suppression of the truth.

Which means the only way that gets broken is through the proclamation of the gospel and the call to repent and believe. That's the only way that breaks. Biology isn't the issue and if you have been outside of an abortion mill for any length of time.

You know that that these people don't care that it is a baby. They tell you they know it's a baby and they'll say I have the right to kill my baby. It's not the first one I've killed. I'm gonna kill more we hear that on a regular basis.

It's not biology. Does the biology scream image-bearer of God and human from fertilization? It's irrefutable. It can't be controverted. All biological science screams human from fertilization. There's no way out of it.

They can't they can't overcome that argument, but it's not the problem. The problem is that people believe because of very sinful hearts and rebellion that a mother and a father Ought to be able to murder their child in the womb if they want that's the issue.

It's a moral issue. It's a sin issue. It's a call to repentance issue. It's the only thing that's going to transform this world.

And.

So I want to challenge you with this. And many of you guys maybe already know this history, but you need to know this we I won't go into all the history of apology at church and doing this except to say that of course we were in the pro-life Camp as Christians early on and we did our sanctity of life Sunday sermon.

We talked about abortion as murder and our churches and our you know at coffee and fellowship and all those things. But we had these abortion mills next to us. We did nothing about it and we were ultimately challenged through the testimony of a sister in Christ named Lisa Metzger Metzger Who was going to abortion mills and she had saved over 300 babies in one year.

Her testimony challenged our church and then we saw the film babies are murdered here we were challenged by the the testimony and the faithfulness of Tony Miano and John Barros and Rusty Thomas and that really that really challenged our church.

We saw them and we said oh it can be done. And so we started going and so since that time as a local church. We started doing the work lives are being saved preaching the gospel at the mills. And then we started end abortion now to actually equip churches to do exactly the same thing.

We said we don't want a thing from your church. We'll supply everything to you. We'll give you all your resources. We'll give you training just go out with the gospel with your local church and save lives and since that time Nearly a thousand local churches.

It's now global Northern Ireland the Republic of Ireland Germany now we just started it's it's all over the world. But mostly in the US tens of thousands of children been saved this point. We don't know how to even keep track of it, but God's been faithful in that work but then we also started bringing the message of the gospel and God's standards of justice to legislators and so since that time God has Allowed us to be a part of so many bills of equal protection and abolition that have gone in across the country.

Some of them are our bills. We've actually helped to get in some are bills of faithful pastors and other organizations. We're helping them and giving support. But it's happening all across the country and I need to tell you That the greatest enemy to the abolition of abortion the greatest enemy to the abolition of abortion at this point for the church is the pro life establishment is the pro-life industry and.

I know that sounds nuts. I.

Know it sounds conspiracy theorists. I understand that it's a truth. And I could prove it to you without question with their own words with their name on the dotted line. They're proud of it they they're proud of their position that says a Mother who willfully with malice aforethought kills her child in the womb is never to be seen as criminally liable.

She is to have impunity and she must be able to do it in the womb with impunity and immunity. She must not be punished. She must be protected under the law to do it. That's their position and they believe that the woman who murders her child in the womb again willfully with malice aforethought.

That she is not guilty. She is a victim just like her child. That is their position they boast in the fact that that is their position and I need you to understand something as Pastors as ministers of the gospel and as just Christians in this room the people who have killed every single.

One of our abolition bills by the way, I've adopted twins. Little girls and so you'll notice I'm kind of stumbling over my words a bit here. That's because I haven't slept for four months. Stop judging me.

Okay? I'll tell you about them in just a moment, but I'm having a hard time. My lips are like getting ahead of me and I'm like what's wrong with me? Oh, yeah I haven't slept very well, except I did sleep last night.

Pray for my wife. She's at home right now. But I'll give you two. I just by way of two examples I can give you a list and I'll give you the names of the people and exactly what they did. But in two examples, Louisiana.

We had an historic moment where we had a bill of equal protection. Just like Zack put in here and I we had a bill of equal protection that went into the legislature and glory to God. Somehow the pro-life establishment missed this one.

It went to hearing. They block it from getting a hearing. At almost every single state that we go to who Planned Parenthood. Nope pro-choice organizations. Nope. It is every single time I can give you the name of the person who they talked to and how that conversation went down.

They went to legislators. They kill it. They don't even give it a hearing. Don't let it be heard. It just happened to us in Arizona. We had a bill they worked behind the scenes to kill the bill before it could even be put in.

They worked as a legislature. They were so terrified of it in Louisiana it went to the hearing and it passed the hearing seven to two why it was very simple. It said what's in it's in the womb is human from fertilization.

Image of God equal protection the legislators pro-lifers. Look at it and go. Well, that's how we raise money. That's what we say. It's human from fertilization. All life is sacred. All life must be protected.

That's what the bill says. This is crazy. We're getting a bill to end this now. They were like absolutely and that's what one of the legislators Alan Sebaugh said you can hear it on the on the recording.

Yay, or nay to let it get to the floor to vote. He didn't say yes. He said.

Absolutely.

One week later. One week later on the floor he was the greatest opponent to the bill after he said absolutely because he was told by Senator Mike Johnson and Louisiana right to life and national right to life and all these organizations do not pass that bill of equal protection.

Because it would lead to the prosecution of women who kill their children in the womb and we don't want that. One week later. We had all yes votes every vote. We needed to pass it in Louisiana to establish justice of the pre-born and it was the major pro-life Organizations that came in and killed that bill.

They were so dedicated to killing this bill of abolition and equal protection that the day of the votes. They made sure that our legislators had a letter in their hands. We watched them walking around with it at the Capitol.

They had it on their desks. Over 70 of the major pro-life organizations national and state level came together. With a completely unified effort together to write a letter to legislators across the country and specifically to ours in Louisiana to say that we do not want you to pass bills of equal protection that would lead to the Prosecution of a mother who kills the child in the womb.

They're opposed to this. Which is to say brothers. They're opposed to the message of the scriptures on this issue of abortion. They do not hold to our worldview from the very earliest stages of the Christian Church.

We've had creeds and confessions and the earliest creeds and confessions of the Christian Church when they mention Abortifacients or the issue of abortion they say with a unified voice. It has always been the case.

They say abortion is murder and whoever is who participates in it is guilty of murder and they need repentance and faith. They have to turn to Jesus that has been the universal Voice of the church regarding abortion from the earliest stages of the church, which is to say that the pro-life establishment.

Believes heresy.

Which is to say that brothers and sisters we cannot compromise. Because listen and Zach already said this if we are saying to women who murder their children in the womb that they are not guilty. Then we are saying that they don't need to repent and turn to Christ from their abortion.

They don't need Christ's forgiveness for abortion because as if we know our Bibles if you are a victim You don't need to ask for forgiveness. It is perpetrators who are the guilty ones and victims who are the innocents.

And so if you tell a woman who has killed her child in the womb willfully, you're a victim, sweetheart. You don't need to be seen as guilty. Then what you're saying to her is that she doesn't need the gospel.

And Brothers pastors, I'm assuming that your life has been like mine. How many women have sat in front of you in your office who are grieving with tears over the murder of their own child?

An abortion.

How many women have you minister to have come to you and have told you that they're grieving because ten years ago or five years Ago or twenty years ago. They had one or two or three abortions and they can't get it out of their heads.

How have you talked to them? I'm assuming it's the same way as me. You've told them sister if if you turn to Christ in that if you have his righteousness you are washed you are cleansed you are justified because Jesus died for murderers, too and If we say to her you're a victim we are robbing her of the gospel brothers and sisters we cannot Compromise with the pro-life establishment on this issue of the woman being a victim if she's a victim.

She doesn't need Jesus. She doesn't need forgiveness. Is that our message? Is that the message of the Christian Church? You don't need Jesus sweetheart. You're a victim like your child but more than that.

When they have that message of the woman being a victim and not needing forgiveness and she's a victim like her child. It leads them to come against the Christian Church and ministers of the gospel like us at the legislature.